Feed Pets Raw Food: [rawfeeding] Digest Number 12277

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: problems on raw food
From: katkellm

2a. Re: Feeding Chihuahuas
From: Cheryl Younesi

3a. Vomit
From: mmc2315
3b. Re: Vomit
From: carnesbill

4a. Re: first day with the new pup!
From: katkellm

5. Re: first day with new pup
From: Michael Moore

6.1. Re: Liver
From: Penny (Nickles) Parker

7a. What Am I Doing Wrong?
From: totaly_his
7b. Re: What Am I Doing Wrong?
From: katkellm
7c. Re: What Am I Doing Wrong?
From: Tina Berry
7d. Re: What Am I Doing Wrong?
From: totaly_his

8.1. Re: Free turkey half - Washington DC area
From: Elizabeth Hackley

9a. Re: Heartburn (?)
From: jennifer_hell

10a. skin problems for pomeranian
From: Ashley Myers
10b. Re: skin problems for pomeranian
From: Casey Post

11a. Stunned
From: rbmc1231937
11b. Re: Stunned
From: mmc2315
11c. Re: Stunned
From: Anntiga@aol.com
11d. Re: Stunned
From: Sandee Lee
11e. Re: Stunned
From: mikkeny
11f. Re: Stunned
From: Tina Berry

12.1. New to list
From: hmize1

13a. Re: Feeding chicken
From: Cheryl Younesi

14.1. Re: Feeding Pork
From: cesar valdez

15. 7 week puppy with diarrhea
From: barrettsmadison

Messages
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1a. Re: problems on raw food
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:36 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mbrown33333" <mbrown33333@...> wrote:
>
> started my staffy ruby on raw 8 days ago and after a few days on
> chicken she went of her food and started eating grass and later that
> day she went for a toilet and a sloppy mess exploded out of her back
> end

Hi Mike,
Loose stools usually come from a couple of things for new to raw dogs.
First, too much food. So, make sure that you are not feeding her
more than 2% of her ideal weight. Second, too much fat. For most
dogs chicken doesn't have too much fat, but you might have to start
out doing a little trimming. I would remove the fat and the skin from
her chicken for a while. Assuming that all you fed for these 8 days
was chicken, too much new food should not come into play. If you have
been adding other proteins, however, that could be a problem.

> Do i keep her off food for another 24hrs and any idear as to what to
> feed her with when i start again ...

The yellow vomit was her tummy gearing up for a meal that never came.
When the juices didn't have a job to do, they did the appropriate
thing and came up. Messy, i know, but probably not an issue. If this
were my dog, i would start her back with a bone in chicken breast with
the fat and the skin removed. I would feed her smaller more frequent
meals today and see how she does. Just make sure not to feed more
food, just more often. HTH, KathyM

Messages in this topic (4)
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2a. Re: Feeding Chihuahuas
Posted by: "Cheryl Younesi" CYounesi@mac.com cyounesi
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:36 am ((PST))

My smallest Chi, -4 pounds, eats chicken wings, turkey necks, chicken
feet (for a treat), beef w/o bones yet, turkey w/o bones yet (only
because I haven't purchased with bones yet). My largest Chi, 6 pounds,
is a new rescue (adoption) and she won't even look at raw, (went 4 days
without eating) so we are starting her out slowly, finally got her to
eat some of it cooked w/o bone (I know, I know!) with a little cottage
cheese. Hopefully I can have her switched over successfully soon! I'm
relatively new at this and a slow starter!
Cheryl

Messages in this topic (5)
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3a. Vomit
Posted by: "mmc2315" m.chelap@sbcglobal.net mmc2315
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:09 am ((PST))

Our little Cairn terrier mix threw up his raw meal yesterday about an hour after eating. We
started raw about 2 weeks ago, and he has only had parts of chicken quarters so far. We
have not introduced other proteins yet, and are holding off on organs.

I wasn't worried because I've read a lot (!!!) of posts where dogs vomit (thanks for
sharing!). Dh and the kids were quite concerned because the dog continued to vomit, 3-4
more times during the evening, and they reported he was clearly not feeling well (just
wanted to curl up on his bed, didn't want to play).

I picked up his regurgitated meal before I went to work and threw it out. No one fed him
anymore that evening. We plan to fed him his regular meal later today. BTW, he is happy
and perky this morning.

For next time (I assume there will be a next time), would you suggest I leave the
regurgitated meal out for him or get rid of it? How bad does the vomiting need to be to
give slippery elm bark powder?

Dh was worried the raw food was making the dog sick, and I tried to explain that I've read
a lot of posts on vomiting, and it could be part of the adjustment period, or maybe
something just upset his stomach. Vomit happens.

Okay, I think that about covers it. The family wanted me to post so I can report back. :)

Thanks,

Michelle

Messages in this topic (6)
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3b. Re: Vomit
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:03 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mmc2315" <m.chelap@...> wrote:
>
> Our little Cairn terrier mix threw up his raw meal yesterday
> about an hour after eating.

Yeah, your right. Dogs vomit. One vomit in 2 weeks is really no
big deal. It's part of the learning process. Learning for both the
dog and the humans. I suggest feeding meals that are a little
smaller for a little while.

I would leave the vomit out for about 5 or 10 minutes to see if the
dog is interested in re-eating it. After that, I would pick it up.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (6)
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4a. Re: first day with the new pup!
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:09 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ben" <ben1721@...> wrote:
>
> Hi everyone! My husband and I picked up our 8 1/2 week old
> Newfoundland pup today and have successfully fed him his first raw
> meal!

Hi Rachel,
Congratulations on your new puppy and on your first raw fed meal. Way
to go.

> Would it be best to feed him 3 or 4 times/day?
I would suggest that you start feeding him 3 times a day. I don't
think a fourth meal is necessary for a puppy that is successful
digesting raw. If his tummy tells you different, than add a fourth
meal.

> I've noticed that many people mention
> feeding beef heart as a source of meaty meat. We can get pork heart
> for about .20/lb less than the cost of beef heart... is one superior
> to the other? or is it OK to go for the pork?

I don't think that one is superior to the other because both are a
part of a critter and offer variety in terms of protein sources. Both
make good meaty meat meals or add a little meat to a bone heavy meal.
Beef heart might have more value, to me, in the respect that of all
the cuts of beef that you can buy at the store, heart is the only part
i can afford to buy without breaking the bank. Send us puppy updates.
KathyM

Messages in this topic (2)
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5. Re: first day with new pup
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:10 am ((PST))

>>Would it be best to feed him 3 or 4 times/day? <<

Rachel, Ben & Moose -- FWIW, I fed my Corgi puppies (*much* smaller than Moose the Newfie) four times daily until the age of three months, then three times daily until four months of age, and now at six mos., they are eating twice daily. Their tummies can't hold as much food when they're young but your guy will grow up quickly.

>>We plan to stick with chicken only for at least the first week, and then to gradually
introduce other protein sources.<<

Good plan, and after that first week, you can probably introduce a variety of new foods. Puppies do really well with a wide variety of foods. Within two weeks, my litter (at seven weeks) had eaten pork, venison, elk, rabbit, chicken, turkey, beef, lamb and fish.

>> I've noticed that many people mention feeding beef heart as a source of meaty meat. We can get pork heart for about .20/lb less than the cost of beef heart... is one superior to the other? or is it OK to go for the pork? <<

Heart is heart, IMO. Beef heart is the only reasonably priced beef around here, so that's why I feed it liberally. I do feed a lot of pork -- shoulder roasts, etc., but pork is terrific, IMO and that of my dogs.

-- Anne and the PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue

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Messages in this topic (1)
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6.1. Re: Liver
Posted by: "Penny (Nickles) Parker" loverladymaggiemae@yahoo.com loverladymaggiemae
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:10 am ((PST))

I'm Wondering if it is a breed thing. All of my (and foster) Cavaliers
love Liver. So do the English Toy Spaniels. But my Chihuahua won't
touch it any way shape or form. Even frozen she won't even come near
it when I am handing it out as a treat. All the others love it thawed
and slurpy Go figure!
Penny & The Menagerie

Messages in this topic (99)
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7a. What Am I Doing Wrong?
Posted by: "totaly_his" totaly_his@yahoo.com totaly_his
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:52 am ((PST))

Well, I am in week 5 of rawfeeding my 6 year old jackrussell. I have studied the archives but
still need assistance. My girl has had chicken, beef, and a few organs. I give her a heart,
gizzard or liver maybe once a week and only 2 pieces. It seems that for the most part, my
dog almost always has loose stools and it smells horrible. I have read that the poop of raw
fed dogs don't smell bad. She has had a few accidents in the house before I could get her
outside. I am finding it difficult trying to balance the diet (more bone when stools are loose
versus more meat when constipated). I am trying to make this as simple as I can but I don't
like that she has loose stools all the time. She is in the yard and squats and squats and
squats trying "finish"her job. WHAT AM I DOING WRONG! ! Is it suppose to be this way? I only
introduced beef after week 3 because she still had diarrhea. I haven't even tried to introduce
any other proteins because she hasn't done well up to this point. Should I just keep her on
chicken until her stools are normal? Please instruct me on what changes I need to make. I
really am trying to make this easy and simple but right now....it's everything BUT that.
Jackie

Messages in this topic (4)
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7b. Re: What Am I Doing Wrong?
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:19 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "totaly_his" <totaly_his@...> wrote:
>
Is it suppose to be this way? I only
> introduced beef after week 3 because she still had diarrhea.

Hi Jackie,
No, it isn't suppose to be this way. I think we should back up to the
3 weeks on chicken where you tell us she still had loose stools. Are
you sure that you only fed her 2% of her ideal weight? I know that
you only gave 2 pieces of liver, heart, gizzard once a week, but it
might have been too much too early on for your dog. Was she going
normally before the liver was fed because, imo, you probably
introduced the liver too soon into the diet? I would probably not
feed any beef at this point because beef bones tend to not be
completely edible for dogs, especially little ones, and i would
imagine that it would be hard to balance out the diet using beef.
Just thought, are you trying to balance out the beef diet with chicken
bones? Mixing proteins probably isn't a good idea for right now
either. I guess based on what i know, i would feed a bone in chicken
breast with the skin and fat removed. I would make sure i am feeding
slightly under the 2% of her ideal weight mark, rather than slightly
over for now. I would not offer any liver or heart or gizzard at all
for a while. That could be the problem right there. I would feed
smaller and more frequent meals to judge her progress and make it
easier on the system. Just feed more meals, not more food. HTH, KathyM

Messages in this topic (4)
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7c. Re: What Am I Doing Wrong?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:19 am ((PST))

"I am trying to make this as simple as I can but I don't like that she has
loose stools all the time. She is in the yard and squats and squats and
squats trying "finish"her job. WHAT AM I DOING WRONG!"

You are doing great!!! However, I would go back to one meat source to see
if the loose stools stop, keeping the 10% bone in the diet. Did she get
loose stools after introducing new meats? or organs? if so, back off on the
organs and go back to one meat source. Some dogs take longer to adjust and
can only handle little organs in the beginning.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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7d. Re: What Am I Doing Wrong?
Posted by: "totaly_his" totaly_his@yahoo.com totaly_his
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:49 am ((PST))

Did she get
> loose stools after introducing new meats? or organs? if so, back off
on the organs and go back to one meat source.

Tina,
She did fine as long as she was on JUST chicken w/bone. But after 3
weeks I slowly added some stew beef with the chicken as some in this
forum suggested in the files. I have always had some chicken w/bones
with a small amount of beef for her meals, never just a beef meal yet.
Hearts.liver and gizzards were added once a week and only 1 or 2
pieces. I haven't even tried fish, pork, etc. yet. My girl weighs 30
lbs. and I feed her 2-3 pieces of bonein chicken w/ beef once a day. I
will take your suggestion and feed her 1 or 2 pieces of chicken twice a
day. Would that be right? Thanks for your help. Jackie

Messages in this topic (4)
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8.1. Re: Free turkey half - Washington DC area
Posted by: "Elizabeth Hackley" twodobemom@yahoo.com twodobemom
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:03 am ((PST))

would your farmer be interested in more customers? I
have a butcher (has a business on side) that delivers
to my house but I'm finding it more and more difficult
to get my meat delivered when I need it.

Elizabeth Hackley, Flicka, Gunther Guinness with Loki & Max (waiting at the bridge)

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Messages in this topic (27)
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9a. Re: Heartburn (?)
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:43 am ((PST))

Anyone? I ordered Slippery Elm now. Hope that will solve it?

Jennifer

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jennifer_hell" <jenniferhell@...>
wrote:
>
> I hope that is the correct term in English, I looked it up, another
> term would be pyrosis.
> What can I do to help Mandy when she's experiencing heartburn?

Messages in this topic (2)
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10a. skin problems for pomeranian
Posted by: "Ashley Myers" miragehairsalon@yahoo.com miragehairsalon
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:21 am ((PST))

Is anyone out there experienced with having a pom with skin issues. I was hoping a raw diet would help but she's still oily, smelly and itchy. (just 3-4 days after being groomed too!) I've given her fish oil, to try to aleviate any dryness that might be contributing to her itching.I'm really at a loss.
Thanks
Kitty

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Messages in this topic (2)
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10b. Re: skin problems for pomeranian
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:25 am ((PST))

> Is anyone out there experienced with having a pom with skin issues. I was
> hoping a raw diet would help but she's still oily, smelly and itchy. (just
> 3-4 days after being groomed too!) I've given her fish oil, to try to
> aleviate any dryness that might be contributing to her itching.I'm really
> at a loss.

Kitty,

Feeding raw will help issues that are diet-related, but unfortunately it is
not a cure-all.

Pomeranians are subject to a number of skin diseases, including Sebaceous
Adenitis (which is what jumped to mind when you said, "oily, smelly, and
itchy").

Time for a vet check to find the true cause of what's going on and if it's
an autoimmune disease. Good luck.

Casey

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11a. Stunned
Posted by: "rbmc1231937" rbmc1231937@yahoo.com rbmc1231937
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:21 am ((PST))

Reily my 97 lb had blood work don.All is well, but he is low on
Protein???? Reily is on raw for a year, . but because he is97 lb, and
not active I am feeding one Pound a day. My question is , How do i
bring his protin level up. He is geting a Egg a day.Do I feed more??
The vet wants me to add high protein kibble to his meat. Ja . and raw
is not good at all, because of salmonella. and so on. can you help.
Barb&Reily

Messages in this topic (6)
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11b. Re: Stunned
Posted by: "mmc2315" m.chelap@sbcglobal.net mmc2315
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:58 am ((PST))

"rbmc1231937" wrote:

> but because he is97 lb, and
> not active I am feeding one Pound a day.

What is his ideal weight? Is he losing weight, gaining, or maintaining?

Michelle

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11c. Re: Stunned
Posted by: "Anntiga@aol.com" Anntiga@aol.com anntiga
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:58 am ((PST))

Reily should be getting a minimum of 2 pounds of raw meat and bones a day.
Dogs are supposed to be fed two percent (.02) to three percent (.03) of the
their ideal adult body weight.

.02 times 97 equals 1.94. .03 times 97 equals 2.91. Reily should be
getting 1.94 to 2.91 pounds of RMBs a day.

Remember that Reily should be getting 80% raw meat (organ meats not
included), 10% raw bone covered in raw meat, and 10% organ meats like liver.

My vets are anti raw also. They worry that Norman, my 54 pound Portuguese
Water dog (PWD) is not getting enough carbohydrates.

We just agree to disagree about raw feeding.

Good luck!

Ann
Norman (PWD)
San Francisco Peninsula, CA

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Messages in this topic (6)
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11d. Re: Stunned
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:01 am ((PST))

Ughhh...this is one the reasons I generally recommend not telling our vets
we feed a raw diet! They can't look beyond that to find a cause for
disease, abnormal bloodwork, etc.

He should be ashamed of himself. Total protein in the blood is indicative
of some other systemic issue and not related to diet one bit!

For info about deciphering bloodwork....
http://www.dogaware.com/misc.html#bloodtest

This quote is from one of those sites....
http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/ClientED/lab.asp
Total protein includes albumin and larger proteins called globulins.
Included in the globulins are antibodies which are protein molecules. Total
protein can be increased if the dog or cat is dehydrated or if the pet's
immune system is being stimulated to produce large amounts of antibody.
Total protein is decreased in the same situations which reduce albumin or if
the pet has an abnormal immune system and cannot produce antibodies.

If the value is low enough to cause concern, you might want to have the
levels run again, making certain the dog has been fasting for at least 8
hours, and then pursue this if the levels are still low. If your current
vet can't look beyond diet and treat your dog, you need a new one!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "rbmc1231937" <rbmc1231937@yahoo.com>

Messages in this topic (6)
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11e. Re: Stunned
Posted by: "mikkeny" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:29 am ((PST))

> He should be ashamed of himself. Total protein in the blood is
indicative
> of some other systemic issue and not related to diet one bit!

************************

I knew that I could count on Sandee to point this out!

Why a vet would link blood protein levels to dietary protein in this
instance is beyond me...the idea of adding a high protein kibble,
well, that's a new one, anyway! <g> Vets are usually all "raw is too
much protein", but this one thinks that raw is too little protein!
Hey, points for novelty, anyway.

Casey

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11f. Re: Stunned
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:38 am ((PST))

Baron is 97lbs and he gets 1 - 1.5 per day depending on how he looks. He's
3 yrs old. As far as I know, the blood work is slightly different on a raw
fed dog vs kibble (as far as what is supposed to be normal) so I would just
keep doing what you're doing if he looks good, feels good, etc.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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12.1. New to list
Posted by: "hmize1" hmize1@yahoo.com hmize1
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:58 am ((PST))

Hi everyone,
I've been reading archives and plan to lurk for a while. I have two
English Mastiffs - Gus is 6 and about 180#'s, Bucky is 5 and about
130#'s. They are small for their breed but perfect in most other
ways. :)

I'm interested in feeding raw because Bucky has some itchy skin type
allergies, plus we are always battling ear goo (yeast) and doggy
breath from plaque on their teeth. They also love to chew, so I'm
sure they'd enjoy going to town on a chicken.

I am curious about the cost of feeding raw foods. We currently spend
about $60/month on dry food. If I were to feed them only whole
chickens, that would be over $100/month (figuring 2% of their weight
and $0.59/pound on sale). There may be cheaper sources, but I know
they shouldn't have exclusively chicken so that may cost more.

Does that seem like a reasonable estimate? I know we'll save money
on medication, ear cleaner, teeth cleaning, etc. Just trying to get
a sense for monthly cost.

Thanks!
Heather

Messages in this topic (92)
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13a. Re: Feeding chicken
Posted by: "Cheryl Younesi" CYounesi@mac.com cyounesi
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:59 am ((PST))

Lora,
That was an extremely interesting and helpful article! Thanks for it!
It really helped me understand the Omega 3's and 6's better!
Cheryl

Messages in this topic (10)
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14.1. Re: Feeding Pork
Posted by: "cesar valdez" chorizo4662@yahoo.com chorizo4662
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:07 am ((PST))

Finally convinced my girlfriend to let me put both her
dogs (6mon old Boxer/3yr old Old English Bulldog) on
raw. I put my 1.5yr old Pitbull on raw about 6-8mon
ago. Obviously, the Boxer is still growing. Currently
weighs about 60lbs. Should i be feeding it the
"regular" 3% of its weight or should i be feeding a
bit more since its still growing and gradually
increase as its weight increases? Also, should i let
it tear apart its own meat or should i cut into 1/4lb
pieces? Those it usually chews a few times and then
swallows them whole after a few chews. Ill chop
chicken leg/thigh 1/4's into 3 pieces and he tears
them up from there. The transition has been a great
one. NO vomiting with the exeption of 1 time from the
Bulldog because it ate some veal with ALOT of fat on
it. Other than that, NO problems at all. Stools are
still a bit runny because of the transition from
kibble to meat. Any help with this is greatly
appreciated! Everyone have a great day.

Cesar

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15. 7 week puppy with diarrhea
Posted by: "barrettsmadison" barrettsark@verizon.net barrettsmadison
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:38 am ((PST))

Hi everyone I could really use some help. My 7 week old newfoundland
puppy has diarrhea. It has been on and off for over a week now. He
was Dewormed twice so far. We are off to the vets this after noon
with a stool sample. I just feel like they are going to blame the raw
food. And this is my first time feeding a puppy raw. He is on only
Chicken some grounded but mostly wings and necks right now I have
been splitting the feeding up 4 X a day.
We any thing would help thank you
Jessica

Messages in this topic (1)
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Feed Pets Raw Food

Wednesday, November 14, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12277

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