[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12275

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. Re: Liver
From: Tina Berry

2a. Re: Feeding chicken
From: briargarden07
2b. Re: Feeding chicken
From: Casey Post
2c. Re: Feeding chicken
From: Bumble1994@aol.com
2d. Re: Feeding chicken
From: Yasuko herron

3a. Vomiting Fish
From: jrtsnabc
3b. Re: Vomiting Fish
From: costrowski75
3c. Re: Vomiting Fish
From: jrtsnabc
3d. Re: Vomiting Fish
From: Michelle Grabert
3e. Re: Vomiting Fish
From: Yasuko herron

4a. ADMIN: SIGNING AND TRIMMING
From: GWB
4b. Re: ADMIN: SIGNING AND TRIMMING
From: Michelle Grabert

5a. raw fed dogs drink less water??
From: sfed57
5b. Re: raw fed dogs drink less water??
From: Stephanie Sorensen
5c. Re: raw fed dogs drink less water??
From: katkellm

6a. Too much Organ
From: Jennifer
6b. Re: Too much Organ
From: katkellm
6c. Re: Too much Organ
From: Tina Berry

7a. Re: Whole raw feeders
From: costrowski75
7b. Re: Whole raw feeders
From: becca1066

8a. Re: different proteins
From: costrowski75

9a. ADMIN/Re: I need a new vet!
From: costrowski75

10a. Deer bones
From: amvilppu
10b. Re: Deer bones
From: Tina Berry
10c. Re: Deer bones
From: whirlwind32980

Messages
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1.1. Re: Liver
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:19 am ((PST))

"Weird, I think, but is there a problem with feeding him the liver this way
if this is the only way I can get him to eat it?"

One of my bunch will eat it as long as it's frozen. He must not like the
ewwwww factor LOL.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (98)
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2a. Re: Feeding chicken
Posted by: "briargarden07" briargarden07@yahoo.com briargarden07
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:19 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Jane Boswell" <famtimes@...>
wrote:
>
> On another list that I'm on, a member posted
> that feeding too much chicken will result in
> a serious dietary deficiency of copper.
> Specifically feeding 50 percent chicken can
> be harmful. Another member talked about
> too much chicken causing seizures.
>
> Has anyone on this list had a similar experience?
>

Its correct that feeding too much chicken will result in dietart
deficiencies, however, thta can be said for ANY meat. It's not a
problem exclusive to overfeeding chicken. I'm actually not sure about
the copper, but I know that if chicken takes up too much of the diet,
the dog is going to have some serious zinc deficiencies, plus an
overabundance of Omega 6. Its a misconception that copper will cause
that reddish tint to a black dog's coat, when in fact that stems from
too much Omega 6 & not enough Omega 3 in the diet.
Chicken will not cause seizures. I have an epileptic dog who
actually does best on chicken muscle meat. Besides stress, his
triggers are mainly food related. While my other dogs do awesome with
lamb, he can only tolerate it in small amounts, hence lamb and other
red meats can be triggers if fed in abundance. He cannot tolerate
pork AT ALL. That doesn't mean raw pork causes seizures. Also keep in
mind that severe dietary deficiency, particulatly, too much
phosphorous or not enough Vit D to absorb the calcium being consumed,
can cause seizures.
I don't freak out over balance the way some homecookers do, but
I also don't ignore it, and do make an effort to balance out the
diet. Chicken is the staple for my dogs, but once I did my research &
learned about the high amounts of Omega 6 in the skin, I started
trimming at least half the fat in addition to adding fish oil. That
really helped improve coat quality. I give beef and other red meat to
most of the dogs whenever possible, and include a good variety in
their menus. If you make an effort to balance the diet and add
variety to balance out the nutrients that chicken is either deficient
in or has too much of, your dogs will be just fine.

Noelle M.

Messages in this topic (8)
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2b. Re: Feeding chicken
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:32 am ((PST))

Chicken liver has a fair amount of copper. Not as high as something like
beef liver, of course, but still...

Casey

Messages in this topic (8)
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2c. Re: Feeding chicken
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:59 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 11/13/2007 2:19:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, "Tina
Berry" writes:

Here is a good link about copper that says "& chicken are relatively low in
copper but provide a reasonable amount of copper to the body because they
are consumed in significant amounts."

***
And it also says that copper is found in liver and fish--maybe that's one
reason this prey model feeding group considers liver to be essential in a raw
diet. :)

Lynda

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Messages in this topic (8)
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2d. Re: Feeding chicken
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 3:52 pm ((PST))

You can go to www.nutritiondata.com and you can check the copper amount in chicken or in liver etc if you wanted to see how much the food has.

yassy

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3a. Vomiting Fish
Posted by: "jrtsnabc" jrtsnabc@yahoo.com jrtsnabc
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:21 am ((PST))

Hi all,

I know there were some posts regarding this subject not too long ago but I couldn't find them in the archives.

I have a dog that every single time she eats fish will vomit anywhere from 6 to 8 hours later. She does not vomit all of her dinner back up but a good portion will come back. Also, she makes not attempt to eat it again nor do any of the others.

In the older posts I say, I think I remember some saying that they also had dogs who consistently vomited up a protein type, fish even.

Should I stop feeding her fish? Is it OK (other than the obvious ick factor) if she vomits some of it back up or is her body trying to tell me that fish just does not agree with her. If it were any other protein source I would simply stop feeding it. However, the fish is her biggest source of Omega-3s. She gets fish capsules (which do stay down), as well.

Thoughts?

TYIA,

Katherine and the JRTs and BC
Nunn, CO

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3b. Re: Vomiting Fish
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:58 pm ((PST))

jrtsnabc <jrtsnabc@...> wrote:
> I have a dog that every single time she eats fish will vomit anywhere
from 6 to 8 hours later. She does not vomit all of her dinner back up
but a good portion will come back. Also, she makes not attempt to eat
it again nor do any of the others.
*****
If it keeps happening, there's little reason to pursue that source of
nutrition. Fish is just not that big a deal. I've had luck backing
off for several months, then trying again; if fish keeps coming back
after a significant hiatus, I'd say bag it and stick to FBO.

However, the fish is her biggest source of Omega-3s. She gets fish
capsules (which do stay down), as well.
*****
Biggest source maybe, but how much O3 is it delivering and how much
fish do you have to feed to achieve that level?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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3c. Re: Vomiting Fish
Posted by: "jrtsnabc" jrtsnabc@yahoo.com jrtsnabc
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:59 pm ((PST))

Thanks, Chris. I'll bag the fish and will enjoy the lack of late night fish hurls! :D

Katheirne

Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: Vomiting Fish

jrtsnabc <jrtsnabc@.. .> wrote:

> I have a dog that every single time she eats fish will vomit anywhere

from 6 to 8 hours later. She does not vomit all of her dinner back up

but a good portion will come back. Also, she makes not attempt to eat

it again nor do any of the others.

*****

If it keeps happening, there's little reason to pursue that source of

nutrition. Fish is just not that big a deal. I've had luck backing

off for several months, then trying again; if fish keeps coming back

after a significant hiatus, I'd say bag it and stick to FBO.

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3d. Re: Vomiting Fish
Posted by: "Michelle Grabert" chalienme@yahoo.com chalienme
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 3:59 pm ((PST))

what is FBO>? thanks, Michelle

jrtsnabc <jrtsnabc@yahoo.com> wrote: Thanks, Chris. I'll bag the fish and will enjoy the lack of late night fish hurls! :D

Katheirne

Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: Vomiting Fish

jrtsnabc <jrtsnabc@.. .> wrote:

> I have a dog that every single time she eats fish will vomit anywhere

from 6 to 8 hours later. She does not vomit all of her dinner back up

but a good portion will come back. Also, she makes not attempt to eat

it again nor do any of the others.

*****

If it keeps happening, there's little reason to pursue that source of

nutrition. Fish is just not that big a deal. I've had luck backing

off for several months, then trying again; if fish keeps coming back

after a significant hiatus, I'd say bag it and stick to FBO.

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3e. Re: Vomiting Fish
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:12 pm ((PST))

>what is FBO>?

Fish Body Oil.

That is good one to add to meal to add up omega 3,and it is commonly made from oil from sardine,herring,anchovi etc.

yassy

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4a. ADMIN: SIGNING AND TRIMMING
Posted by: "GWB" chiksika@comcast.net kioqua
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:24 am ((PST))

The moderation team is SHORTHANDED right now so those who don't sign,
trim or both their mails will find them disappear/deleted without
prejudice.

Gerry Brierley-mod guy

Messages in this topic (2)
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4b. Re: ADMIN: SIGNING AND TRIMMING
Posted by: "Michelle Grabert" chalienme@yahoo.com chalienme
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:28 pm ((PST))

I don' know how to trim a post~~ michelle

GWB <chiksika@comcast.net> wrote: The moderation team is SHORTHANDED right now so those who don't sign,
trim or both their mails will find them disappear/deleted without
prejudice.

Gerry Brierley-mod guy

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5a. raw fed dogs drink less water??
Posted by: "sfed57" sfed57@yahoo.ca sfed57
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:28 am ((PST))

Hi all, I have noticed that my two siberians drink way less water now
that they are raw fed. I'm not concerned, just wondering if this is
common. Maybe it has to do with it being winter now as well (not so
hot outside). I'd imagine now with a better diet they wouldnt need as
much though, any thoughts???

Thanks, Shawna

Messages in this topic (3)
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5b. Re: raw fed dogs drink less water??
Posted by: "Stephanie Sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:27 pm ((PST))

I think it has to do with the higher water content in raw meat than in ki**le. I actually have to be careful not to let the water sit too long, or it gets a funky film on it! I think they drink a lot of water on a ki**le diet because they need to aid the passing of all of that undigestible junk they're being fed!

-Steph
Scarlet, Lucy and Minkey (the kitty)

sfed57 <sfed57@yahoo.ca> wrote:
Hi all, I have noticed that my two siberians drink way less water now
that they are raw fed. I'm not concerned, just wondering if this is
common. Maybe it has to do with it being winter now as well (not so
hot outside). I'd imagine now with a better diet they wouldnt need as
much though, any thoughts???

Thanks, Shawna

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5c. Re: raw fed dogs drink less water??
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:28 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "sfed57" <sfed57@...> wrote:
>
> I have noticed that my two siberians drink way less water now
> that they are raw fed.

Hi Shawna,
Raw fed dogs do drink less water than kibble fed dogs because raw meat
has a high moisture content. Also, kibble acts like a sponge when it
digests and actually absorbs water from the system. KathyM

Messages in this topic (3)
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6a. Too much Organ
Posted by: "Jennifer" kali_moonwolf@yahoo.com kali_moonwolf
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:41 am ((PST))

Hi! I was wondering if there's a way to know if I feed too much organ.
Im pretty good about mixing it up with chicken, and beef (raw), but I
scored a couple HUGE beef hearts that I cut up, and don't know how to
portion it out, so is there a way to know if Im feeding too much organ?
-Jennifer (and Tikahni)

Messages in this topic (3)
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6b. Re: Too much Organ
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:27 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Jennifer" <kali_moonwolf@...> wrote:
>
> .... but I
> scored a couple HUGE beef hearts that I cut up, and don't know how to
> portion it out, so is there a way to know if Im feeding too much organ?

Hi Jennifer,
Heart is fed as a muscle meat and not as an organ, so you can feed
heart to bowel tolerance. I feed all heart meals after i feed
something a little on the bony side. KathyM

Messages in this topic (3)
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6c. Re: Too much Organ
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:27 pm ((PST))

"HUGE beef hearts that I cut up, and don't know how to portion it out"

Heart is considered a muscle meat, even tho it's an organ - you can feed it
like red meat. Liver is the only organ you can get too much of because if
the vitamin A and D. I feed around a lb a liver a week a piece to my
bunch. Sometimes more if I have it. Sometimes they go months without it.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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7a. Re: Whole raw feeders
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:43 pm ((PST))

"Andrea" <poketmouse45@...> wrote:
>
> Caren OConnor <cavkist@> wrote:
>
> > When I feed whole prey, exclusively rabbit to date, my dog always
> > goes for the head first and consumes the prey in that direction,
> > head, then body. Everything I ever read about animals taking
down
> > prey said that the animal goes for the gut and intestines first.
>
> I think the observation about eating the gut first usually refers
to
> large prey like deer and such.
*****
The assumption would still be incorrect.
While wolves may well go in through the underbelly, because of its
thinner skin and relative ease of access, they do not notably go for
the gut and intestines. Certainly the stomach is not an eagerly
sought-after body part; intestines as well do not provide the
nutrition of heart and liver and flesh. I believe somewhere along
the line Dr. Mech made a comment that undereducated observers tend to
confuse the "stomach" with the "belly".

And yes, small game may or may not offer up the stomach and
intestines. Whatever is quickest to consume gets consumed.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (26)
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7b. Re: Whole raw feeders
Posted by: "becca1066" becca1066@yahoo.com becca1066
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:21 pm ((PST))

years ago I had a ferret who only ate the head & forequarters of her
mice-we thought maybe she was kosher?
becca

Messages in this topic (26)
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8a. Re: different proteins
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:52 pm ((PST))

"krystal_brr" <rkbarr@...> wrote:
>
> I understand the concept of introducing a new protein gradually, but
> what if you introduce a protein but then can't get it again for like
6-
> 9 months?
*****
Don't invent problems where there are none! Feed what's available when
it's available and if it's not find something else to offer. If you
only get lamb a couple months out of the year, oh well. Many venison-
feeders can't access it year-round; they feed it when it's available
and if their dogs need a bit of reintroduction each time, fine.

Seasonal availability is common for both wild wolves and our domestic
ones.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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9a. ADMIN/Re: I need a new vet!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:06 pm ((PST))

Please take this discussion to RawChat or DogHealth. While vet
recommendations are not necessarily OT for the Rawfeeding list,
conversations about medical treatment (allopathic or alternative)
generally are. On Rawfeeding, this threat is closed.
Thank you.
Chris O
Mod Team

Messages in this topic (3)
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10a. Deer bones
Posted by: "amvilppu" amvilppu@hotmail.com amvilppu
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:12 pm ((PST))

Hi all-

I am going to pick up some deer trimmings and organs from a local hunter/butcher. He also
has a lot of bones left over. Are there any deer bones that are not tooth breakers? I have
never fed them so I am unsure.
Thanks for the info-

Annaliisa, Drew, and Boxer pup Laila

Messages in this topic (3)
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10b. Re: Deer bones
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:59 pm ((PST))

"Are there any deer bones that are not tooth breakers? I have never fed them
so I am unsure."

I feed all deer bones except the leg & knuckle bones. If they have lots of
meat on them, I let them chew til the meat is gone then pick up the bones.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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Messages in this topic (3)
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10c. Re: Deer bones
Posted by: "whirlwind32980" whirlwind32980@yahoo.com whirlwind32980
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 3:36 pm ((PST))

Hiya i have been feeding a raw diet to my dogs now for about 6 1/2
years. They adore venison. The only bone i tend not to give them is
the thigh bone, they are both large dogs but they do struggle with
these. Does tend to be more tender than stags, and if from a butcher
the deer are usually quite young so again the bones are slightly
softer. Their favourite is the neck and ribs.
x Tracey

Messages in this topic (3)
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