[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12266

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: yeasty ears
From: beaulah_2001us
1b. Re: yeasty ears
From: Marguerite
1c. Re: yeasty ears
From: carnesbill
1d. ADMIN/Re: yeasty ears
From: costrowski75

2a. Re: weight gain and rawfeeding
From: Laurie Swanson
2b. Re: weight gain and rawfeeding
From: carnesbill

3.1. New to the list
From: hunterblu123
3.2. Re: New to the list
From: Sandee Lee
3.3. Re: New to the list
From: hunterblu123
3.4. Re: New to the list
From: Giselle

4a. Re: feeding heart
From: kaebruney

5. Feeding frozen meat
From: kaebruney

6a. first time feeding a puppy Raw
From: barrettsmadison
6b. Re: first time feeding a puppy Raw
From: Giselle

7a. Beginning - Deer and Other Questions
From: politicat83
7b. Re: Beginning - Deer and Other Questions
From: carnesbill

8a. Re: still wolfing
From: Mary Tinder

9a. Re: dog needs to lose weight, but...
From: Kim
9b. Re: dog needs to lose weight, but...
From: Kim
9c. Re: dog needs to lose weight, but...
From: Sandee Lee
9d. Re: dog needs to lose weight, but...
From: carnesbill

10. Organic or Non Organic
From: elkilpat

11a. Re: First lamb shanks....a success!
From: costrowski75

12a. Re: Exciting Discovery Close to Home/Sweetbread Question
From: costrowski75
12b. Re: Exciting Discovery Close to Home/Sweetbread Question
From: ginny wilken

Messages
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1a. Re: yeasty ears
Posted by: "beaulah_2001us" beaulah_2001us@yahoo.com beaulah_2001us
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 3:59 pm ((PST))

Hi Mundi, I cant say much about what causes all yeast infections in
ears. But when our dog Grace had a yeast infection in her ears from
not getting them dried out after she water got in them we used two
different kinds of meds that did not work and cortizone shot that did
not last. What I finally did was research ear infections and used
vinegar that was suggested in yeast infections. Her one ear was
swollen shut. The vinegar started working that same day. I used it
several times a day and massaged it around then dried the ears out
gently. Vinegar is also so much cheaper than the meds they had given
us. Had I know that it was a yeast infection at first I would have
looked at that solution sooner. I used the vinegar not knowing that
she had a yeast infection. I told the vet about it and she said that
Grace did have a yeast infection. I suggested that they tell people
to use vinegar instead of using money to buy all these other meds
that did not work. We spent over 200 dollars on her ears and a 79
cent bottle of vinegar did the trick.

I did not know that food could cause the same thing. Maybe the
vinegar will at least offer some comfort while you figure the other
things out as to the cause of it for your dog. Just a thought on a
way to deal with it right away so you can feel better about
researching the causes.

I hope this will help ease discomfort if you choose to try it. If you
do try it would you please let me know of your results? And please
let us know if you find a permenant solution to the cause of these
infections for yuor baby.
Sandy

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Mundi Smithers <amenfarm@...>
wrote:
>
> I have just joined this list and this is my first post. I have
been
> feeding my two older Standard Poodles a combination of Oma's Pride
raw
> meat and veggies and RawInstinct kibble with great success. One
of the
> girls had a chronic problem with yeast infections in her ears and
this
> diet has cleared her ears. Enter a 5 1/2 month old Standard
Poodle
> puppy. He is on the same diet and his ears are a mess. My vet is
> pretty much anti raw and seems to think he should be on some fancy
> schmancy food that they sell. I did a bit of research and found
that
> the veggies in the raw meat may well be causing the yeast
problems. I
> am more than happy to change my entire program but need some
suggestions
> as to what and how much and how often to feed a growing puppy. He
now
> weighs 41 lbs and is definitely growing .... no airy poodle here.
This
> boy has enormous paws, a big chest and shoulder and will be a big
boy!
> Any help will be much appreciated.
> Mundi and Cicero
>

Messages in this topic (13)
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1b. Re: yeasty ears
Posted by: "Marguerite" semitruestory@gmail.com margo532001
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 4:42 pm ((PST))

my cocker gets redness between her paws and around her bottom with a
cheesy like , whitish yellow thick substance with it. Is this yeast?
She has been on raw about 4 months. She used to get stapg infections
on her skin but that has cleared up ok since converting to raw.
Do you use white or apple cidar vinegar? Do you dilute ? If so, what
are the proportions?
Marguerite
>
>

Messages in this topic (13)
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1c. Re: yeasty ears
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:12 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Mundi Smithers <amenfarm@...>
wrote:
>
> I am more than happy to change my entire program but need
> some suggestions as to what and how much and how often to feed
> a growing puppy.

What is raw feeding and how do I know what to feed my dog?
My mantra about raw feeding is to look to nature. What would my dog
eat if he was living in the wild? The answer to that is he would eat
any animal he could catch and kill. So the answer to what to feed is
raw meat, bones, and organs from a variety of animals.

What about fruits & veggies?
A lot of people feed their dogs veggies but if you look to nature,
you will see that your dog wouldn't eat veggies in any measurable
amounts. He might eat a few berries or maybe some grass but
certainly not zucchini, carrots, potatoes or any of the veggies that
many people feed. Also you must know that all the cells in all
vegetable matter is covered by a think layer of cellulose. This
cellulose must be crushed during the eating process in order for the
nutrients in the vegetables to be available for digestion. This is
called bioavailablity. The nutrients in vegetable matter is not
bioavailable to our dogs because they don't have the flat molar
teeth that plant eating animals do. Humans, for example, have flat
molars for crushing cellulose during chewing. Dogs molars are called
carnassal teeth and are not flat but work like scissors to rip and
tear meat and crush bones. So, by looking at your dog's teeth, you
can tell that veggies just are not appropriate food for them. The
vegetable material doesn't harm your dog, but it does them no good
either. Giving carrot treats occasionally doesn't hurt. Just make
sure that you don't feed enough veggies to interfere with the amount
of meat, bones, and organs your dog eats.

How do I begin?
First off, you want to begin with one meat source until your dog
gets used to digesting meat. I suggest chicken, specifically chicken
backs only for the first week. Chicken meat is easily digested and
the bones are soft and pliable. The second week, I suggest chicken
backs in the morning and chicken quarters in the evening. The third
week I think it would be good to alternate chicken quarters with
turkey necks in the evening, sticking with chicken backs in the
morning. So one evening you would feed chicken quarters, the next
evening it would be turkey necks, then quarters again then necks,
etc. After a week of that, add another meat. I suggest pork. One
pork meal that week. The next week add one meal of fish. I use
canned salmon or mackerel but raw fish will work just fine. Feed
with bones and organs still attached if you can get that. I feed one
fish meal every week for the omega 3 fatty acids for good bright
shiny coats. Then next week, try something in place of the pork,
maybe lamb or beef. So, after a few weeks you will be feeding most
any meat available. After a month or so of feeding raw, you can add
organ meat. You don't feed a meal of organs, just add some organ
meat to one or 2 meals a week. Not a lot of organ meat as they are
rich and can cause runny stools. Now let's put it all together and
look at the diet I feed my dogs after the introduction period. Every
morning they get chicken backs. The evening meals are alternated
between chicken quarters and turkey necks. One of those evening
meals will be fish + organs + a raw egg (shell and all) + anything
else I may have left over in the fridge. One other night during the
week is for "something else". I may feed a pork roast or pork ribs
or pork shoulder. It may be beef, or lamb. Just something other than
chicken, turkey, or fish. That's it. I keep it as simple as
possible. The more you complicate it, the more complicated it
becomes. Expect your dog to have runny stools for a few days to a
couple of weeks in the beginning. Its part of the process of
learning how to digest meat and is normal. Some dogs don't get runny
stools at all, others last for a couple of weeks.

What organs do I feed?
Liver is the most important and should be at least 50% of the organs
fed. Any kind of liver will do. Chicken, beef, pork, lamb, any of
them. A variety is best over time. Kidney is the next most
nutritious organ to feed. Also lung and pancreas. Heart is not an
organ but a muscle and is good to feed too. Gizzard is also a muscle.

How much do I feed my adult dog?
Each dog is different and that's impossible to say. However, begin
with 2% to 3% of his IDEAL adult weight each day. Watch him over
time and adjust as necessary. If he gets fat, feed less and vice
versa. Many new raw feeders have this great need to measure
everything. That need will quickly disappear and you will just know
how much to feed. You will also stay in touch with your dogs "build"
and adjust his food accordingly.

How much do I feed my puppy?
This one is a little more complicated so pay attention here. Begin
feeding him 10% of his weight a day. Once 10% of his weight exceeds
2% to 3% of his IDEAL ADULT weight (not present weight), feed the 2%
to 3%. All the time you are doing this you are conscious of his
build and adjust the amount of food accordingly. The puppy will tell
you how much to feed him by his build.

How young can I begin feeding raw?
I personally have fed a 12 week old puppy raw. I know breeders who
will wean their puppies directly to raw. My suggestion is to begin
feeding raw the day you bring him home.

Tell me how to balance the diet.
People worry an awful lot about balancing their dog's diet. It seems
to me that they worry more about their dog's diet than their own or
their family's diet. They are dogs. Their digestive systems and
their bodies are not that fragile. Feed meat, bones, and organs from
a variety of animals and the diet will balance itself over time.
Remember that term "over time". It's not necessary to balance each
meal. Balance over time. People getting into raw feeding tend to
worry a lot about ratios and percentages and weights. Forget all
that. Feed raw meat and bones and organs from a variety of animals
and things magically work themselves out. What is ideal? The average
prey animal has about 10% to 15% bone, about 10% organs, and the
rest muscle and fat and connective tissue. If you feed 5% bone or
25% bone, it won't matter. 5% organs or 20% organs doesn't make any
difference. Just stay somewhat in the ballpark and you will be ok.
One thing I look at is the dog's poop. You will become an expert
poop watcher. Ideally, the poop should be solid and turn white and
powdery in a day or 2. If the poop is runny, it generally means you
need to feed more bone. If it is white and powdery when it comes
out, feed less bone. The poop and my dog's build is all I watch and
I don't look at poop very often anymore.

Do I feed supplements?
As long as you feed raw meaty bones and organs from a variety of
animals then you shouldn't need to supplement a healthy dog. Of
course if your dog has a health problem, you might want to add
supplements for that. One more possibility. Some add salmon oil
capsules for omega 3's. I don't because I feed fish at least once a
week.

Where and how do I buy my raw meats?
A good place to buy in bulk is to go to small independent grocery
stores and have them order things like chicken backs and turkey
necks by the case. Backs come in 40# cases and turkey necks come in
30# cases. Small independent stores are usually willing to help you
get cases of meats. The big chain stores just aren't set up for such
purchases. Ethnic markets are another source of meats, particularly
organs. Check with restaurants and see where they get meats and try
those places. Finding cheap meat is fun and will become a game once
you get into raw feeding.

Can you give other tips on raw feeding and how to make it easy?
There are many and you will learn most as you go and you will have
to work out your own routine. It will be complicated and cumbersome
in the beginning but you will work out your routines and it becomes
very little more difficult than feeding kibble. One suggestion is
when you buy by the case, break up the case into meal size portions
and put them in freezer bags. As you feed one meal, get the next out
of the freezer to be thawing.

What about Germs from the raw meat?
The digestive juices of our canines are more than 50% hydrochloric
acid. It is very deadly to the bacteria that your dogs ingest.
Dog/wolves in the wild are exposed to all kinds of e-coli,
salmonella, etc all the time and suffer no ill effects from it.
(Afterall they lick their butts all the time!) A canine in the wild
can stumble upon a carcass of a prey animal that has been dead for a
week or more and will gladly eat it. I had a Golden Retriever whose
favorite treat was a road kill squirrel that had been dead and
laying in the hot sunshine for about a week. Whenever she ate one,
there was never any side effects from it. Its safe to feed your dogs
meat that has gone bad in the refrigerator. Don't worry about germs
when feeding your dog. It's a non-issue. I have never heard of a dog
nor a family member getting sick from feeding your dog raw.

Thats it. If you have more questions, feel free to ask me and I'll
add them to the list. :) This is raw feeding in a nutshell.

To learn more about raw feeding:

Read the book "Work Wonders" by Dr. Tom Lonsdale You can find it
at "www.rawmeatybones.com" .

A few informative web sites are:
"http//rawfeddogs.net/index.php"
"http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html"
"http:rawfed.com/myths/index.html"

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (13)
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1d. ADMIN/Re: yeasty ears
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:47 pm ((PST))

The care of yeasty ears other than feeding an appropriate diet is not
fodder for the rawfeeding list. Please take all health discussions to
RawChat or DogHealth.
Chris O
Moderation Team

Messages in this topic (13)
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2a. Re: weight gain and rawfeeding
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 4:42 pm ((PST))

Hi Kristina,

I really don't know how much weight he is supposed to gain. That does
sound like a lot for him, but are you sure the scale is right? I know
scales can be off, and different scales can't really be compared--
especially when you've got such little room for error with this little
bitty boy. Does he look chubby? I would go more by that, I think.

Sometimes raw does increase a dog's energy. You may be seeing normal
puppy behavior, and it may have just taken him awhile to settle in to
his new home and new routine, so that may be why he's more active. I
also think their activity naturally increases between 8 & 10+ weeks.
They also go thru growth spurts where the appetite increases. I think
it will fluctuate a bit as he grows.

Hopefully others can answer the rest, and maybe give you more specifics.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "kzyocy" <kzy01@...> wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
> I am new to rawfeeding, but have been feeding my Brussels Griffon for
> 2-1/2 weeks. My question is this, does rawfeeding increase their
> weight significantly? And does it increase the appetite ravenously?
> My "baby" was 1 LB 9 oz at 8weeks of age. He is now 2 LB 9 OZ. He
> has gained 1 pound in two and half weeks!...is this normal?

Messages in this topic (3)
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2b. Re: weight gain and rawfeeding
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:10 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "kzyocy" <kzy01@...> wrote:
>
> Has anyone else had this happen?

Sounds like happy healthy energetic puppy to me. :) :) :)

> I have
> given him both meat with bone...when he chews---he doesn't
> have all his teeth yet. And I also give him ground meat
> with ground bone that I grind.

If he can chew the meat/w bone why grind? You aren't doing him a
favor by grinding if he can chew it himself. I'm really not used to
puppies that small so I may be all wet on that. :) :) :)

> My vet told me to give him
> Vetri-Science "Canine Plus" a multi-vitamin/mineral supplement and
> also to sprinkle once a day Animal Essential "Plant Enzymes &
> Probiotics".

Are you doing that or are you just saying the vet advised you to?
If you are adding all that extra stuff, stop. They aren't needed.

> He also is constantly eating the grass.

Puppies and dogs eat grass whether fed kibble or raw. It's just
something they sometimes do. No one knows why.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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3.1. New to the list
Posted by: "hunterblu123" ksap@fuse.net hunterblu123
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 4:42 pm ((PST))

Hi all I am new to the list and having trouble finding the list
archives.

Alicia

Messages in this topic (45)
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3.2. Re: New to the list
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 5:38 pm ((PST))

Alicia,

If you are on individual messages, there are several links at the bottom of
each email that will get you to the past messages. If not,
go to the list site and click on messages...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "hunterblu123" <ksap@fuse.net>

Hi all I am new to the list and having trouble finding the list
archives.

Messages in this topic (45)
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3.3. Re: New to the list
Posted by: "hunterblu123" ksap@fuse.net hunterblu123
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:11 pm ((PST))

I was thinking there were saved stuff in the files spot or something
like that not just in posted messages thanks.

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
> If you are on individual messages, there are several links at the
bottom...

Alicia

Messages in this topic (45)
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3.4. Re: New to the list
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 11:56 pm ((PST))

Hi, Alicia!
If you go here:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/and look to your left,
you will see where it says Files - the emails you
were sent when you subscribed will be there, and a few others.

You can search the archived messages by typing key words into the search box
on the right of the page, under the wet dog. : ) clicking on ADVANCED first
will let you be more specific in your search.

There's lots of info in both places, but if you have specific questions or
concerns, just start a topic and ask. (left hand side of the page, click on
Post)

A few links to helpful websites and an archived message;

http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html

http://www.rawlearning.com/supplementmyths.html

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes

http://rawfeddogs.net/FAQlist

*http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374 *

*post # 141374*
TC - what's your dog's name?
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On Nov 10, 2007 10:19 PM, hunterblu123 <ksap@fuse.net> wrote:

> I was thinking there were saved stuff in the files spot or something
> like that not just in posted messages thanks.
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com <rawfeeding%40yahoogroups.com>, "Sandee
> Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
> > If you are on individual messages, there are several links at the
> bottom...
>
> Alicia
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (45)
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4a. Re: feeding heart
Posted by: "kaebruney" kaebruney@yahoo.com kaebruney
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:06 pm ((PST))

Hey Lynette,

one thing I learned about heart feeding.. since heart has a lot of
blood and blood vessels in it, your dogs stool will appear black as
though it has blood in it. I was a bit concerned when I first noticed
it, before making the connection. So don't worry too much if your dog
has black tarry like stools following their heart meal (or addition of
hearts to their meal).

That's normal.

Good luck!

Kae
>

Messages in this topic (6)
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5. Feeding frozen meat
Posted by: "kaebruney" kaebruney@yahoo.com kaebruney
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:06 pm ((PST))

Hey gang!

I've recently started feeding my big boy (70 lb Am Bull) frozen raw
because he wolfs down his food so quickly. Frozen portions, especially
the chicken quarters, seem to slow him down quite a bit and force him
to pull and chew.

is there any downside to feeding frozen? I've heard that it's not good
from a vet article, but I'd love to hear from the raw feeders themselves.

thanks!

kae

Messages in this topic (1)
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6a. first time feeding a puppy Raw
Posted by: "barrettsmadison" barrettsark@verizon.net barrettsmadison
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:08 pm ((PST))

Hi there I have been feeding my Newfoundland raw for about a year now
but she has a 6 1/2 week old puppy who I'm really just learning how to
feed. She only had one puppy.

My Problem is that at first I was feeding him to much to far apart and
he got loose stools and now I'm feed him 4 times a day and smaller
amounts. Well Now he is eating so fast a Chicken neck takes about 6
sec. and it's gone. Being that he is by him self he does not have to
fight over his food. His meal is mainly Chicken ground with bone and
Chicken necks whole. Tonight on his last meal I have given him a Lamb
neck in hopes that it will slow him down. I'm just worried I'm not
feeding him enough or that I'm doing something wrong. I have just
never seen a puppy eat so fast. He weights about 9 lbs. now.

I just feel like I really don't know enough about this and I'm
worried. If any one can help that would be great.

How much food?
How often?
What are good meats to start puppies on?
What should I not give him?
Thank You
Jessica

Messages in this topic (2)
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6b. Re: first time feeding a puppy Raw
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 11:42 pm ((PST))

Hi, Jessica!
Feed the way you would for any dog, but scaled down for a
pup.
In case you are new to this list, here are links to some websites and an
archived message to help you get your feeding plan organized;

http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html

http://www.rawlearning.com/supplementmyths.html

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes

http://rawfeddogs.net/FAQlist

*http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374 *

*post # 141374*
As I'm sure you'll remember, Newf pups grow fast! But they mature slowly.
Be sure to offer larger and larger parts as he gets bigger, so that the
meals are challenging for him and so that you don't have gulping issues.

BTW, singleton pups can have behavioral issues as they grow due to the fact
of not having sibs to learn body language and relationship give and take. It
would be great to get him together regularly with some buds his age if you
know someone else who has pups or asap as he grows, and do some research on
Singleton Puppy Syndrome. Maybe the breeder of your female or the owner of
the stud dog could help out?

TC and let us know how you both get on!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On Nov 10, 2007 9:44 PM, barrettsmadison <barrettsark@verizon.net> wrote:

> Hi there I have been feeding my Newfoundland raw for about a year now
> but she has a 6 1/2 week old puppy who I'm really just learning how to
> feed. She only had one puppy.
> <snip>
> I just feel like I really don't know enough about this and I'm
> worried. If any one can help that would be great.
>
> How much food?
> How often?
> What are good meats to start puppies on?
> What should I not give him?
> Thank You
> Jessica
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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7a. Beginning - Deer and Other Questions
Posted by: "politicat83" lundie.jess@gmail.com politicat83
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:09 pm ((PST))

Hello everyone,

I have been enjoying reading this list and exploring the archives over
the past couple weeks. What a wealth of knowledge and experience. I
apologize in advance for the length of this post, but I have a bunch
of questions. Then I think I just need to buy a scale and I'm ready
to go.

Some background:
I have a 65 lb. greyhound and a 10 lb. queen of the world cat who I am
planning on switching to raw this week. Right now grey is on kibble,
cat has been undergoing a several month transition from kibble and
we've made it to premade raw. Dog is a total chowhound and I think
she will be easy. Cat is a picky brat and I am preparing for the
worst :).

Some questions!!

1. I was planning on starting with chicken for both dog and cat, as
it seemed like it would be easy. However, there is a possibility that
on Monday night my neighbor will be returning with a deer, which he
said I can help butcher and share in the unwanted bits. Is it ok to
start a transition with deer, or will that be too hard on her system?
What would be a recommended method with the leftovers I am likely to
end up getting? Is Chronic Wasting Disease an issue for canines if I
give her the head to enjoy (I was inspired by the puppy!).

2. From what I've been able to tell, my dog is allergic to fish
(including fish oil pills - they make her itch) and lamb. We've had
itching and explosive diarrhea from both. However, I've read on this
list that some allergies in processed foods end up not being an issue
with raw feeding. How long should I give it before I try? Should I
even try? If not fish, where can get get O3's from?

3. Once a day feeding, twice a day feeding, fasting, gorging? Ack!
Information overload - help?

4. Stuffed kongs are a key part of our daily routine while I'm at
work as far as minor separation anxiety is concerned. My dog is not
crated during the day. Does anyone have any suggestions on something
I can stuff into kongs and freeze that doesn't involve salmonella and
e-coli being snarfed all over my living room while I'm gone?

And finally...

5. For my cat, am I really correct in thinking that I can take the
whole chicken in my fridge, and gradually through coaxing and slowly
increasing piece sizes, feed my way through the entire chicken and
that's what this is all about? What about taurine/anything else? Is
this really this easy?

Sorry for all the questions - if you made it all the way through,
thank you. I just really want to get this right. I've been convinced
for a long time that this was the way I needed to be feeding, and I'm
excited to finally make the leap.

Thank you!!

Jess, Shoxy & Athena

P.S. If anyone is in the Northern VA area, could you e-mail me
privately and give me some ideas on good sources of meat? I'm still
struggling with that.

Messages in this topic (2)
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7b. Re: Beginning - Deer and Other Questions
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:52 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "politicat83" <lundie.jess@...>
wrote:
>
> 1. I was planning on starting with chicken for both dog and
> cat, as it seemed like it would be easy.

Yes, begin with chicken. Take all the leftover deer you can beg
from this hunter and freeze it. In about a month you should be able
to start working deer into the diet.

> What would be a recommended method with the leftovers I am
> likely to end up getting?

Freeze it.

> Is Chronic Wasting Disease an issue for canines if I
> give her the head to enjoy (I was inspired by the puppy!).

NO, it isn't a problem.

> 2. From what I've been able to tell, my dog is allergic to fish
> (including fish oil pills - they make her itch) and lamb.

The dog is on kibble right now. Of course if you give a kibble some
fish, he will get the upsets. Wait a month or so and try them both
again in small doses to begin with. I bet you will find he is
allergic to neither.

> If not fish, where can get get O3's from?

Deer meat, wild whole rabbit and I'm betting he won't be allergic to
fish in a month or two. Don't worry about O3's for now. You can
begin to think about them in a couple of months.

> 3. Once a day feeding, twice a day feeding, fasting, gorging? Ack!
> Information overload - help?

I would begin with twice a day feeding. In a month or so you can
try once a day and a couple of months after that you might want to
try gorge/fast. Personally I still feed twice a day. I prefer it
and so do the dogs.

> 4. Stuffed kongs are a key part of our daily routine while I'm at
> work as far as minor separation anxiety is concerned.

I would use ground beef or even hot dogs. I have used both and they
work well. I have heard of people using cream cheese. Don't worry
about salmonella or e-coli in frozen ground beef. The meat will be
gone before it has a chance to take hold.

> 5. For my cat, am I really correct in thinking that I can take the
> whole chicken in my fridge, and gradually through coaxing
> and slowly increasing piece sizes,

The method I used that worked for the two cats I have switched is to
put a chicken drumstick in their bowl with their regular kibble
meal. He will usually experiment with it for a week or so then
begin eating it before the kibble. You could put less and less
kibble in the bowl as time goes by.

> What about taurine/anything else?

Beef heart has a good amount of taurine. My dogs and cats get beef
heart 2 or 3 times a week.

> Is this really this easy?

Cats are not always easy to switch. But once everyone is switched,
feeding a prey model raw diet is very easy. It will take you a
month or two to get your routine set and learn how to buy your raw
food, etc. Don't get discouraged if it seems hard in the beginning.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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8a. Re: still wolfing
Posted by: "Mary Tinder" mtinder@tinderco.com mmmaryt
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:11 pm ((PST))

Thanks folks. That's what I needed to hear! MaryT,
\
yes he is digesting the bones and everything completely.. relax.. i
don't see a problem with his eating habits.. that's entirely normal. 20
minutes for a lamb leg and 5 minutes for a whole chicken is pretty
normal here
> too.

Messages in this topic (4)
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9a. Re: dog needs to lose weight, but...
Posted by: "Kim" two-pups@comcast.net jedikim8
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:12 pm ((PST))

Hi Yassy,

--- Thanks for the reply.
>
> To avoid bile vomit,you can give itty bitty before bed snack when
dog goes bed.it can help through the night. my dog never vomit by
doing this snack before bed.
>
--- I do give her a small dog biscuit before bed, but it probably
isn't big enough to make a difference.

> How much did you decreased the meal size? You cannot dicrease
suddenly and I hear 10% decrease is better.
>
--- I haven't been weighing food per say but divide the package
weight by my 3 dogs to estimate the amount that they are getting. I
think 3% of her ideal weight is 3/4 lb, but when I feed ~3/4 lb she
seems to gain weight. I probably cut back to between 1/2 lb and 5/8
lb and then she seems more likely to throw up bile.

> Do you walk your dog? Maybe dog gets chunky because dog eats kcal
food more than he/she can burn during the day..

--- well, that's true. I haven't been walking quite as much the
past 2 months due to an injury I've had. It's getting better, so
maybe that will help with the weight once I can get walking more.
>
>
> yassy

Messages in this topic (9)
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9b. Re: dog needs to lose weight, but...
Posted by: "Kim" two-pups@comcast.net jedikim8
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:13 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" <two-pups@> wrote:
> >
> > My 9.5 year old beagle-mix (5 years on raw) seems to digest her
food very quickly. Waking up in the middle of the night to hear
> > her vomit bile or bile and bones and a very grumbly/gurgly
stomach is not a rare occurance.
>
> Hey Kin,
> How often do you feed her? How long has the middle of the night
stuff been going on? Does it happen every night or just sometimes?
If it's just sometimes can you relate it back to what was fed the
previous meal? What are her stools like?
>
> Weight gain suggests thyroid is something to consider.
>
> Bill Carnes

Hi Bill,
I feed her once a day in the evenings ~4:45-6:30. She also gets a
small dog biscuit first thing in the morning and one before bed.

The middle of the night thing has been going on since I started
feeding raw (I think because she digests it so fast). I happens once
every two or three weeks - perhaps sometimes a little more frequently
and sometimes a little less. I know she has a harder time digesting
the knobby end of chicken leg bones and sometimes pork neck bones. I
posted recently about that and it sounded from the replies that I was
probaby feeding too much bone. I've been feeding more meat, but then
tried to decrease the amount and she threw up 2-3 nights in a row.
Besides too bony meals causing bone and bile vomit, I don't see any
other connection with type of meat and occurance of vomiting. Her
stools vary depending on what type of meat is fed, although I'd say
they are more on the loose side in general.

Do you know of a good link that lists symptoms for dogs with thyroid
issues?

Thanks,
Kim

Messages in this topic (9)
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9c. Re: dog needs to lose weight, but...
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:10 pm ((PST))

List of hypothyroid symptoms....
http://siriusdog.com/articles/hypothyroid-dog-signs.htm

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Kim" <two-pups@comcast.net>

Do you know of a good link that lists symptoms for dogs with thyroid
issues?

Messages in this topic (9)
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9d. Re: dog needs to lose weight, but...
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:53 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" <two-pups@...> wrote:
>
> The middle of the night thing has been going on since I started
> feeding raw (I think because she digests it so fast).

I don't THINK there is a such thing as digesting too fast. I have
never heard of a dog or human digesting too fast.

> I happens once
> every two or three weeks - perhaps sometimes a little
> more frequently and sometimes a little less.

Well, that means whatever it is, isn't too serious. Thats a LOT
better than every night.

> I
> posted recently about that and it sounded from the replies that
> I was probaby feeding too much bone.

I doubt feeding too much bone is the problem.

> Besides too bony meals causing bone and bile vomit, I don't
> see any other connection with type of meat and occurance
> of vomiting.

Ok, since you have tried a few things and they didn't work. Lets
try something radical. Perhaps occasionally she is having trouble
with the large meals. Try switching her to two smaller meals a day
for a whlle and see what happens. It can't hurt anything and you
can always go back to once a day if it doesn't work.

Also, lets go back to the basics. Go back to a chicken only diet
for a couple of weeks then gradually add in other protein sources
gradually just like she is brand new to raw.

> Her
> stools vary depending on what type of meat is fed, although
> I'd say they are more on the loose side in general.

It's normal for stools to vary like that.

> Do you know of a good link that lists symptoms for dogs
> with thyroid issues?

No, I don't ... sorry. I'm sure someone on here will chime in with
that information.

Keep us posted on the progress or lack therof.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (9)
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10. Organic or Non Organic
Posted by: "elkilpat" elkilpat@yahoo.ca elkilpat
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:14 pm ((PST))

Followup on my recent post re feeding organic vs non organic.
Antibiotics, growth hormones, meat by-products are all added to the
feed given to chickens, beef, pork as well as other mass raised
animals. This is common practice everywhere (US and Canada), and
unless you are buying organic chicken etc you are getting meat/bones
that contains these things. As the antibiotics in particular settle in
the bones of animals, when we feed the bones to our dogs (chicken parts
for example) they eat the bones and thus ingest the medications. All
kinds of info on the internet on this (and no I don't believe
everything I read). Some so called organic producers do not follow the
true "organic" way of raising their animals, so it can be difficult to
know what you are getting no matter what.
Luckily I have a chicken producer nearby who does feed organic
(medication free) and I can get a good and inexpensive supply of
chicken backs, feet, liver, hearts, turkey necks. I can also get
medication free bison and lamb. I do buy "regular" meat from the
grocer, but will not be buying anything with bone in it for Bailey. I
don't worry about it for us humans cause we don't eat the bones...
Are others feeding organic only? Thoughts? Comments?
Ellen & Bailey

Messages in this topic (1)
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11a. Re: First lamb shanks....a success!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:52 pm ((PST))

"miensasis" <kpmnlm@...> wrote:
>This is the first time I've fed
> anything but chicken bones, so I'm not sure how exactly to judge
what
> too hard is.
*****
Except for beef leg bones that shouldn't be fed at all, "too hard" is
determined by what the dog can and cannot eat. Some dogs make quick
work of lamb bones, others eat the meat and crunch the bone ends,
others strip the meat and ignore the bone.

I posted the
> question last week and was told that the bone in the lamb shank was
> edible. All I can say is that my dogs were able to chew up the
wider
> end of the bone, but after much more chewing (and a lot of noise) I
> saw they weren't making progress and I took the remainder of the
bone
> away.
*****
There is no question that a lamb shank is an edible bone. How your
dogs choose to tackle one is another issue. For my retrievers, lamb
shanks are completely edible bones. For my BC, a lamb shank is a
great workout even though it doesn't get entirely eaten. She eats
some of the bone, and that's plenty.

Any bone has the potential to damage teeth. Somewhere between no
bones at one extreme and beef bones at the other extreme lies an area
that blends relative safety with a good workout. I think lamb shanks
(and turkey legs, which offer to some a similar challenge) are
comfortably within the blended zone, but ultimately it's a decision
you and your dogs have to make.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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12a. Re: Exciting Discovery Close to Home/Sweetbread Question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:03 pm ((PST))

Giselle <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
if it makes some sense to feed raw
> pancreas regularly to dogs with diabetes, then it follows that a dog
with
> immune system issues may benefit from eating raw thymus more
frequently.
> No?
*****
Again, I believe this is too simplistic an approach, but what do I
know. I suspect a crapped out immune system is more than just a
crapped out thymus gland. I would have to do lots more research before
I could know anything, one way or the other.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (18)
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12b. Re: Exciting Discovery Close to Home/Sweetbread Question
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 11:09 pm ((PST))

On Nov 10, 2007, at 10:03 PM, costrowski75 wrote:

> Giselle <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
> if it makes some sense to feed raw
>> pancreas regularly to dogs with diabetes, then it follows that a dog
> with
>> immune system issues may benefit from eating raw thymus more
> frequently.
>> No?
> *****
> Again, I believe this is too simplistic an approach, but what do I
> know. I suspect a crapped out immune system is more than just a
> crapped out thymus gland. I would have to do lots more research
> before
> I could know anything, one way or the other.
> Chris O

I must have missed something, because I don't know why feeding
pancreas would help with diabetes. Maybe, just maybe, the enzymes in
pancreas would assist in digestion and lessen the incidence of
pancreatitis, although most hard cases seem to require a prescription
strength enzyme. But I will agree with Chris that the entire health
of the animal is the key factor in immune system function, and to
support health takes a diet in the proportions of natural prey: one
body, one pancreas, and maybe a thymus if the animal is young, You
can't just eat stuff and take on its attributes.

Then again, there's Strandard Process and their protomorphogens,
which purport to rebuild similar tissue. But that's magic and not food:)

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (18)
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