[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12263

There are 18 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Exciting Discovery Close to Home/Sweetbread Question
From: Giselle

2a. Re: How much do I feed?
From: carnesbill
2b. Re: How much do I feed?
From: ginny wilken

3a. (no subject)
From: marta zadravecz
3b. Re: (unknown)
From: Giselle

4a. Re: questions?
From: delcaste
4b. Re: questions?
From: delcaste

5a. Info needed please...on wild game
From: TRISH
5b. Re: Info needed please...on wild game
From: Marcella Burgess
5c. Re: Info needed please...on wild game
From: jennifer_hell

6.1. Re: Veggies
From: Giselle
6.2. Re: Veggies
From: ncrnrgrl

7a. High BUN and raw meat?
From: Dawn Ruhl

8a. Re: Organic vs non-organic
From: jennifer_hell
8b. Re: Organic vs non-organic
From: Me
8c. Re: Organic vs non-organic
From: jennifer_hell

9a. Re: Newbie with questions-
From: Laurie Davis

10. FIRST DEER
From: feejeffrey

Messages
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1a. Re: Exciting Discovery Close to Home/Sweetbread Question
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 9:12 pm ((PST))

Yeah, well, Chris, I read about ten entries to every one I post, so I may
not always choose the ones that are the most informative, I do try for
simple clarity. >;->

The simple ones may take on more meaning for me once I read the rest?

TC
G

On Nov 9, 2007 10:30 PM, costrowski75 <Chriso75@aol.com> wrote:

> Giselle <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
> >
> > Just hypothesizing here, but if raw pancreas is beneficial to dogs
> with
> > pancreatic issues, (which I believe, just not to what extent) wouldn't
> > feeding thymus be similarly beneficial if fed to dogs with challenged
> immune
> > systems?
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thymus
> *****
> Dunno. I tried to make sense of the Wiki entry and failed that part of
> the quiz. Seems overly simplistic to me but what do I know.
> Chris O
>
>

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Messages in this topic (13)
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2a. Re: How much do I feed?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 10:52 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:
>
> Amy has always struggled with weight but does anyone have an
> idea of how much I can feed her to help her start to lose
> the weight without 'starving' her (having her always be hungry)?

If she weighs 20# and should weigh 12# then you are killing her with
the extra weight. A little "starving" will be good for her. If she
were my dog, I would cut back her food to half of what she is eating
now, maybe even less until she reached a proper weight. I would
never again feed the amount she is getting now.

If you are all that worried about her "feeling hungry", you can add
some canned green beans to her diet. It will add bulk but
contribute nothing nutritionally. (This is the first time in 5
years of raw feeding that I have recommended feeding veggies) :)

Personally, I wouldn't worry about her feeling hungry. She might
for a short period of time but she would get acclimated to the new
volume of food and would no longer feel hungry with that volume.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (13)
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2b. Re: How much do I feed?
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 11:18 pm ((PST))

On Nov 9, 2007, at 7:29 PM, T Smith wrote:

> Hi all,
> I am having a problem dieting my little girl on RAW.
> It's a tricky situation. Amy should be about 10 - 12 lbs (ideally)
> but she
> is 20 & THAT'S ALOT!! However, the catch is: Amy was born with
> deformed
> joints & has always been heavy no matter how much/little she is fed
> because
> she cannot exercise alot.

An appropriate diet, without toxic carbohydrates that encourage fat
storage in the body, will maintain ideal weight by itself, without
much exercise. Works that way for dogs, and for people, too. Carbs
encourage cortisol production which promotes fat deposition, as well
as forcing fat and water into the cells to dilute the plant toxins
that cause, among other things, immune mediated arthritis.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

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Messages in this topic (13)
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3a. (no subject)
Posted by: "marta zadravecz" martiws1@yahoo.ca martiws1
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 10:53 pm ((PST))

Hi,
I have a 5-year old Irish Water Spaniel. She has been on raw diet for two months now. She loves beef, mutton, lamb and fish. Our only problem is that she doesn't want to eat any chicken or turkey. I tried to give her chicken back, neck and turkey neck in the last three days. She chewed on it then spit out. She ate almost nothing in these days. What should I do with her?
Thanks!!!!!

---------------------------------
Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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3b. Re: (unknown)
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 12:15 am ((PST))

Hi, ??
Leave off of the bony parts and feed leg or breast quarters
instead.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On Nov 9, 2007 11:47 PM, marta zadravecz <martiws1@yahoo.ca> wrote:

> Hi,
> I have a 5-year old Irish Water Spaniel. She has been on raw diet for two
> months now. She loves beef, mutton, lamb and fish. Our only problem is that
> she doesn't want to eat any chicken or turkey. I tried to give her chicken
> back, neck and turkey neck in the last three days. She chewed on it then
> spit out. She ate almost nothing in these days. What should I do with her?
> Thanks!!!!!
>
>
>

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Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. Re: questions?
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 10:53 pm ((PST))

> Violeta showing any discomfort other than panting and big full
tummy?

> I hope violeta is fine now...

Hey, Yassy. I thought maybe I was going too fast. I don't think I'll
feed her tomorrow either maybe just give her a pork foot or pork neck.
She's fine and her poop was fine she was just panting and looked very
bloated.

Silvina

Messages in this topic (6)
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4b. Re: questions?
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 10:53 pm ((PST))

Thanks to everyone who posted. I have been feeding raw since late March
of this year so I'm new. My dog started choking and that's why I'm
feeding Big Food but I guess I'll take it from her when she's eaten her
portion. What happens when the portion is so small that she could choke
again? Give it to another dog?

Silvina

Messages in this topic (6)
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5a. Info needed please...on wild game
Posted by: "TRISH" thechatterboxkid@hotmail.com tqjr30
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 10:54 pm ((PST))

i just got a huge bag of moose organs...heart;liver;kidneys and the
tongue. Any suggestions how how to ...serve this..?
The guy just threw it all in a garbage bag as he cleaned the calf...so
I'm sure it's all a mess in there. Some one at work said they wouldn't
feed moose organs to their animals because of mercury poisoning.?
I figure if the meat is good..why shouldn't the organs.
I have never dealt with tongue before...I always stayed away from
it...only because it looks...well...yuck. I can probably get oodles of
wild game...if I want it... I think it should be good for the dogs...
Anyone tell me otherwise..?... please.
Thanks
Trish

Messages in this topic (3)
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5b. Re: Info needed please...on wild game
Posted by: "Marcella Burgess" proudfootkennels@sympatico.ca marciongrass
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 4:24 am ((PST))

I am sooooo jealous!!!!!
Everyone we know around us are all hunters, but they wouldn't give up even the legs for the dogs!

Marcella

i just got a huge bag of moose organs...heart;liver;kidneys and the
tongue. Trish

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Messages in this topic (3)
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5c. Re: Info needed please...on wild game
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 6:04 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Marcella Burgess"
<proudfootkennels@...> wrote:
>
> I am sooooo jealous!!!!!
> Everyone we know around us are all hunters, but they wouldn't give
up even the legs for the dogs!
>

Ugh!! That sucks! They're surely not using all of the animal? Perhaps
they would sell you a little for small money?

Jennifer with Mandy (who gets a lot of venison these days, bought for
a few bucks)

Messages in this topic (3)
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6.1. Re: Veggies
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 12:46 am ((PST))

Hi, Trina!
Feeding veggies is not good because they're not species
appropriate - dogs are carnivores - just because they can subsist on plant
based proteins doesn't mean that its an optimum food. Veggies, grains,
supplements and additives aren't necessary to a species appropriate diet.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/143301

message # 143301

The Merck Veterinary Manual: "The carbohydrates added to pet foods are
mainly in the form of polysaccharides (starch and cellulose),
disaccharides (sucrose and lactose), and monosaccharides (glucose and
fructose). Carbohydrates are a less expensive source of energy than
fat or protein. In dogs, there appears to be **no dietary requirement
for carbohydrate**."

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/144402

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/144075

Just because stools are loose, even runny at times, doesn't mean that it is
a BAD thing to happen. Dogs react by seemingly acting 'strange' or 'sad' or
'uncomfortable' when they have loose stools sometimes because WE are anxious
or upset or concerned - they're reacting to our actions, our feelings, not
theirs. Sprinkle a bit of Slippery Elm Bark Powder onto a meat that has
caused runny stools in the past, it won't hurt anything, and if the dog has
any digestive irritation, it will soothe it.

Dogs eat grass because they DO, some eat it when they want to fill their
bellies, some eat it when they feel a little off, some eat grass just
because. Not a reason for concern, or a sign that something is missing.

Feeding fish oil caps now and then, when you remember is fine. If your dogs
have loose stools in reaction to increased fat in their diet, you may want
to give little drips to the little ones, and the rest of a partially emptied
cap to the bigs. You may also want to trim visible fat from fatty meats, for
those dogs who get loose stools easily.

Its hard to get amounts perfect, give yourself a break. Big Food, no food,
snack sized food, you're not starving your dogs. It all evens out
eventually. Feed a big edible bony bone to the littles when you don't feed
for a day, or just feed a snack. They won't get much from it, but will get
the satisfaction of chewing it.

Relax, enjoy your dogs.

TC
Giselle

<snip>

Well.......
apparently this is wrong! so folks, can you help me out? My dogs DO eat
grass & have thrown up empty bellies (just the grass) so...........
fill me in.........
I am currently feeding chicken, sometimes roast meat, necks (my dogs battle
runs a lot) & I add hamburger, etc..... just some other meats but mostly
chicken. Fish oil capsules occasionally (didn't know how often these should
be fed)
I KNOW I am doing a lot wrong because I am new still & I am overfeeding my
small dogs. I'll ask the list about that later but can someone, anyone help
me out about this veggie thing?

Trina
--
Chip (deaf Dalmatian)
Casper (deaf Great Dane)
Whisper (deaf Great Dane)
Louie (hearing Great Dane)
Joey (deaf & blind Lhasa Apso)
Amy (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Cassandra (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Mr Paris (Lhasa Apso)
Chloe (deaf & blind Spaniel mix)

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Messages in this topic (45)
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6.2. Re: Veggies
Posted by: "ncrnrgrl" jcraver1@nc.rr.com ncrnrgrl
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 4:24 am ((PST))

Hi Trina,
Being relatively new to raw I don't have a great deal to add to what
the others have said, but I also want to encourage you to *look* at
raw fed dogs. Everytime have a little bit of doubt or insecurity I
look at my dogs. Who look *amazing* shiny coats, well muscled bodies,
tons of energy, and dogs that goes absolutely mental when I get ready
to feed them. This is usually all the reassurance I need.

Best of luck to you.
Jen C.

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Giselle <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
>
> Trina!
> Take a breath, and STOP listening to people who just repeat
second
> hand 'I know a man who's cousin's vet's friend's breeder said that
her
> dogs....." horror stories, and have NO experience feeding REAL raw
to MANY
> REAL dogs for YEARS.
>
> Why DO you want to drive yourself crazy?
>
> Tell yourself every day ten times, I AM a SMART woman with LOTS of
common
> sense and I KNOW what is good for my dogs!!!
>
> : )
>
> Put a moratorium on trying to discuss real prey model feeding with
friends
> or acquaintances for a few more months until you BELIEVE that!
>
> When they SEE how well your dogs are doing, and FEEL how confident
and
> knowledgeable you've become, they will ASK you for your advice, and
then
> you'll be ready to share with them.
>
> Honey, take it easy on yourself, we love you here. ^_^
>
> TC
> Giselle
>
>
> On Nov 9, 2007 9:26 PM, T Smith <coldbeach@...> wrote:
>
> > A friend of mine came in today.
> > <snip>
> >
>
>
> > Trina
> >
> > --
> > Chip (deaf Dalmatian)
> > Casper (deaf Great Dane)
> > Whisper (deaf Great Dane)
> > Louie (hearing Great Dane)
> > Joey (deaf & blind Lhasa Apso)
> > Amy (disabled Lhasa Apso)
> > Cassandra (disabled Lhasa Apso)
> > Mr Paris (Lhasa Apso)
> > Chloe (deaf & blind Spaniel mix)
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (45)
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7a. High BUN and raw meat?
Posted by: "Dawn Ruhl" Dawnofthedanes@mac.com dawnofthedanes
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 1:12 am ((PST))

Feeding a raw diet can raise some different levels when doing blood
work.
Feeding raw will obviously make the levels more like a wolves' or a
coyote's.
I obviously have major CRS because I am half asleep, and it is late....
so I can't remember the difference right now. Can't remember if it is
the BUN or the creatine levels. Will check tomorrow.... promise!
Raw meat protein is a lot less than people think... ground beef is only
25%... which is even safe for a Giant Breed Puppy, and the levels are to
be kept low for them.

For kidney problems.... Nettle leaf and seed extract has managed to save
a few dogs from the commercial dog food poisoning that occurred earlier
this past year.

~;*;~~;*;~~;*;~~;*;~~;*;~

High BUN and raw meat?
Posted by: "rosey031801" rosey031801@sbcglobal.net rosey031801
Fri Nov 9, 2007 4:17 pm (PST)

I have a client that started feeding her 12 year old standard poodle
raw a while back. She is doing great! She had her spleen removed 5
years ago. She now has a high BUN. Of course the vet says the meat is
too high of protien and she should eat his KD canned food. Do any of
you have some experience with this. I would like to see some info from
the experts (you). If it was my dog I wouldn't buy it, but she thinks
she is doing what she has to do. Any advice other than the obvious?
Cheryl

~;*;~~;*;~~;*;~~;*;~~;*;~

Be Blessed,
~;*;~ Dawn ~;*;~
I prefer to live my life as if there is a God, and die to find out there
isn't, than live my life as if there isn't, and die to find out there
is.
http://www.dawnofthedanes.com

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Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. Re: Organic vs non-organic
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 1:12 am ((PST))

> ALL cattle are free range and grass fed until the last few months of
> his life. As far as I know there are no calves born and put in a
> small pen and fed grain it's whole life. THey are all raised in
> pastures, free ranging for all but the last few months.
>

That's very different from Europe, then.Only free range and organic
cattle is grass fed here. Conventionally raised animals spend their
short lives not even seeing the sky, usually, and calves are taken
away directly from their mothers. What you describe above (calves born
and put in a pen and fed grain its whole life) is pretty normal here.
I'm a litle surprised it's in general different in the US, as I have
seen feed lots and pens with calves in Texas all the time when I was
there.
So which kind of cattle is kept in feed lots in the US, if it's not
the one for consumption? Sorry for my ignorance, but I don't live in
the US.
I feed free range and organic, and pay less than for regular from the
supermarket.
What I found interesting when googling free range and omega-6 was that
it not only affects beef.

Jennifer with Mandy from Germany

Messages in this topic (5)
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8b. Re: Organic vs non-organic
Posted by: "Me" earthmoontide@yahoo.com.au earthmoontide
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 1:12 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Shelly <StuartLittle@...> wrote:
<<snip>>
> They are not the same animals. Chemicals, or hormones added
> > to feed change the quality of the animal that eats the feed.
>
> Yes they are. You should look up the requirements for something to
> be called "organic" or "free range" or "all natural". "Organic"
> animals are given exactly the same chemicals as non-organic except
> for the last month or so of it's life.
>
> ALL cattle are free range and grass fed until the last few months
of
> his life. As far as I know there are no calves born and put in a
> small pen and fed grain it's whole life. THey are all raised in
> pastures, free ranging for all but the last few months.

I live in Victoria, Australia, and I can buy organic or bio-dynamic
meat from animals that have been raised their entire life without
added chemicals or hormones. Their last few months are also
chemical and hormone free. Please don't assume that what you have
is simply the way it is for everyone. I am able to purchase bio-
dynamic meat for my family at everyday meat costs. Perhaps we're
extra lucky here.

> There are many cattle farms around me and my brother raises
cattle.
> All of these farmers ... every single one of them ... when they
get
> ready to kill a cow for their own consumption will "put it up" in
a
> pen and feed it grain for a few months before slaughter to fatten
it
> up and add flavor to the meat.

Assumptions. Doesn't occur with the bio-dynamic farmers I buy from.

>
> > If an animal cannot be free, I would rather it is kept in a
fenced pasture with naturally occuring grass/food than keeping the
poor creature contained with little opportunity for movement and fed
from a man-made-unnaturally-occurring bucket.
>

>>You can rest easier. They are all kept in fenced pastures and eat
> grass until the last few months of their lives.

Again - check your facts - assumptions.

>
> > "Organically raised" meat means that they aren't given
> > any unnatural medications or anti-biotics, so I really
> > don't understand your complaint.
>
> It means they aren't given any chemicals the last month or so of
> their life.
>

Again - generalisations. Doesn't happen here.

Regards,

EMT

Messages in this topic (5)
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8c. Re: Organic vs non-organic
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 4:24 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jennifer_hell" <jenniferhell@...>
wrote:

> So which kind of cattle is kept in feed lots in the US, if it's not
> the one for consumption? Sorry for my ignorance, but I don't live in
> the US.

Quoting myself here- got it now. The last few months are spent in feed
lots, stuffing them with grains, destroying all the beautiful work
done by grass feeding them before. Meh. What an unnerving concept.

Jennifer

Messages in this topic (5)
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9a. Re: Newbie with questions-
Posted by: "Laurie Davis" lauried0001@yahoo.com lauried0001
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 6:04 am ((PST))

Actually, I didn't know about the raw cat group- I'll have to check it
out! Thanks for the info- guess I'll see ya over there!

Laurie

Messages in this topic (5)
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10. FIRST DEER
Posted by: "feejeffrey" feejeffrey@yahoo.com feejeffrey
Date: Sat Nov 10, 2007 6:04 am ((PST))

just got my first deer from sheriff. Just wanted to know what all I can
keep. Butchering myself.
thanks Jeff

Messages in this topic (1)
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