[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12262

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. oh, I forgot.....
From: Laurie Davis

2a. Re: Help for a confused newbie
From: Yasuko herron
2b. Re: Help for a confused newbie
From: girlndocs

3a. Re: Bran new to raw diet
From: Giselle

4a. Re: Exciting Discovery Close to Home/Sweetbread Question
From: Giselle
4b. Re: Exciting Discovery Close to Home/Sweetbread Question
From: Deena
4c. Re: Exciting Discovery Close to Home/Sweetbread Question
From: costrowski75

5a. Re: Newbie with questions-
From: helpshelteranimals
5b. Re: Newbie with questions-
From: Yasuko herron

6a. questions?
From: delcaste
6b. Re: questions?
From: Yasuko herron
6c. Re: questions?
From: Casey Post
6d. Re: questions?
From: katkellm

7a. still wolfing
From: Mary Tinder
7b. Re: still wolfing
From: carnesbill

8a. High BUN and raw meat?
From: rosey031801
8b. Re: High BUN and raw meat?
From: Sandee Lee

9a. dog needs to lose weight, but...
From: Kim
9b. Re: dog needs to lose weight, but...
From: Yasuko herron
9c. Re: dog needs to lose weight, but...
From: carnesbill

10.1. Veggies
From: T Smith
10.2. Re: Veggies
From: Sandee Lee
10.3. Re: Veggies
From: costrowski75
10.4. Re: Veggies
From: Giselle

11a. How much do I feed?
From: T Smith

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. oh, I forgot.....
Posted by: "Laurie Davis" lauried0001@yahoo.com lauried0001
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 2:18 pm ((PST))

I do remove as much of the muscle off the bones, and dice it for the
cats, but I am not sure the ferrets can handle the meat
chunks...Thoughts?

Laurie

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Help for a confused newbie
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 2:19 pm ((PST))

>> Some sites say give greens and fruits, some say no,

Hi, I too was real confused when I juststarted feeding raw.Because how you think about meat is by cuts of meat or parts and trying to figure out which part of animals are ok to give and which aren't etc...

and as you get used to the idea of whole thing,it is real easy to feed,and understand.I am not sure what was so confusing in me back when I was just started,lol.

Easiest way of understanding the feeding concept(this is just me) for me was

to feed wacked whole birds(any poultry) and as for 4 legged animals such as pig,cow,lamb etc,then,get ribs or Neck and add more boneless meat for meal with bone and get heart,tongue,boneless meat as meaty meal.

And feed now and then fish and little bit of organs such as liver or kidney.

I think that depending on what books you read,what is recommended to feed is also different,and sometimes,it confuse you more.

Some books recomend feeding chicken backs or neck etc which I think feeding them alone day in day out will be too much bone in diet and usualy I find such feeding method recomend to feed veggies or fruits.

Most vegetable is high in vitamin A and too much vitamin A stored in body becomes toxic,and vegetable and fruits are carb which turn to sugar in body,and hard to digest and it gives little benefit feeding it as part of meal,I think.

I think carrots are popular vegetable among dogs but carrots are high in sugar (carb) and not recommended for diabetic dog too.

Greenbean is another I hear a lot dog gets fed to make dog full (home-made I think),but Greenbeans interfere calcium absorption and too much feeding of such things are never good.

And another popular is probably broccoli due cancer fighting property in it.But feeding broccoli day in day out cause surpressing thyroid function and no good either.

And, dog likes corn,but if you feedcorn,then,next day,you see lots of corn kennels in the shape as it went in.

Some home-made feeder buy 80lb of sweetpotatoes and use it as base of recipe combine with grain but,I do not understand. Too much fiber slow digestion and,fiber takes some nutrition when poo out,and what is the point to feed something that cannot benefit dog's nutrition...andtoo much this or that cause another problems in digesting...

Occasional feeding of veg or fruits (treat) would not harm them,but I never understood why other people want to feed carbs that may cause prob in digesting/health prob later in life.

I have seen recipe using tofu for meat alternative(I think) and,I was surprised.

> some say give a whole carcass some say avoid the necks.

I think thatas you feed rawfood,you would learn dog's eating habit ;gulper or not etc and it also can use to judge thesize of item you feed.

> Right now I just have a small freezer stash of chicken feet,
> gizzards, hearts, livers & giblets.

Feet are great treats, and dog likesit but I don't give too often. 1feet has 60 % of fat and,I like to loose little lb in my dog plus I like to make it high valued item for trade so,I don't feed it often. Since I do not feed so often,sheis happy to give up wahtever hunk of meat in front of her thatshe was working on for hours for me to pick up andre-freezeit for next feeding.

> Absolutely you can use salmon! Just freeze it solid for a couple of weeks if it is wild caught.

I see just farm raised salmon from chile. That is color added to make fish meat look more orange/reddish to customers.I never buy it because of color added but do you all care if the fish is color added or not?

For this added color prob, I tend to pick canned salmon to feed salmon.

If there were no color added ,then,I too would pick up fresh salmon and feed as is though.

yassy

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around

http://mail.yahoo.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: Help for a confused newbie
Posted by: "girlndocs" girlndocs@hotmail.com girlndocs
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 4:17 pm ((PST))

Hi Jenn,

> But not pacific northwest salmon (which I get free but found
> I can't use)?

I just scored around 30 lbs of PNW salmon and heck if I'm not gonna
use it! It's already been frozen for at least a couple years and now
it's living in my freezer. I bet my dog and cats will absolutely love it.

PNW salmonids are safe to eat if they're *either* cooked OR frozen
good and solid first.

Kristin

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Bran new to raw diet
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 2:31 pm ((PST))

Hi, Christine!
There are a number of ways to reassure, convince and help
a dog figure out that the new real raw food is actually theirs to eat and
enjoy!
Try a few of these;

*http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/130758

*

*Message #130758*

*http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/134336 *
Since you're new to raw feeding you might want to read through these links
to websites and archived messages;

http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html

http://www.rawlearning.com/supplementmyths.html

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes

http://rawfeddogs.net/FAQlist

*http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374 *

*post # 141374*
You might want to print some of this out for reading offline.

HTH, let us know how you progress!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On Nov 9, 2007 12:22 PM, christineryan40 <christineryan40@yahoo.com> wrote:

> MODERATOR'S NOTE: SIGN YOUR MESSAGES PLEASE.
>
> Hi, my name is Chrissy and I have a one yr old English Bulldog, for the
> past few months we have been feeding her Nature's Variety Raw food, she
> seems to regurgitate it all the time so my husband wants to feed her a
> more natural raw diet. I am so confused on everything I read and don't
> want to deprive her of any nutrients she might need. We got her a
> split chicken breast last night and she kept licking it but the poor
> lil girl had no idea what to do with it. Any advise would be greatly
> appreciated.
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: Exciting Discovery Close to Home/Sweetbread Question
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 2:44 pm ((PST))

Just hypothesizing here, but if raw pancreas is beneficial to dogs with
pancreatic issues, (which I believe, just not to what extent) wouldn't
feeding thymus be similarly beneficial if fed to dogs with challenged immune
systems?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thymus

TC
Giselle

On Nov 9, 2007 11:36 AM, costrowski75 <Chriso75@aol.com> wrote:

> <snip>
>

> Whether pancreas or
> thymus, sweetbreads are glands not organs and take up very little room
> in a prey animal. Feeding thymus and/or pancreas occasionally makes
> sense in the "whole prey" concept but neither need to be regulars to
> the menu nor fed in large amounts.
>
> Dogs with challenged pancreases may benefit from regular doses of raw
> pancreas (instead of or in addition to a more concentrated pancreas
> supplement) but for healthy dogs a little is plenty.
> Chris O
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: Exciting Discovery Close to Home/Sweetbread Question
Posted by: "Deena" mottola@comcast.net mottola22
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 4:48 pm ((PST))

My vote says yes Giselle. Not only feeding thymus, but other hormone
producing organs as well. Thyroid and autoimmune disease in dogs
soar 30% after reproductive organs are removed. These organs are
protective. So I would think feeding them to an immune compromised
dog would help balance the immune system.

Something which is hard to do unless you can feel whole prey items.
With nothing taken out.

I "cured" a cat of pre-diabetes by feeding her 1 tsp of raw pancreas
daily. Her progressive heart disease has NOT progress since feeding
a variety of different raw hearts in higher proportions than what
would be found in prey. No meds for either, just food. I'm guessing
the same would apply to dogs.

Deena Mottola
PortStar Tollers

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Giselle <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
>Just hypothesizing here, but if raw pancreas is beneficial to dogs
with pancreatic issues, (which I believe, just not to what extent)
wouldn't feeding thymus be similarly beneficial if fed to dogs with
challenged immune systems?

Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________

4c. Re: Exciting Discovery Close to Home/Sweetbread Question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 7:30 pm ((PST))

Giselle <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
>
> Just hypothesizing here, but if raw pancreas is beneficial to dogs
with
> pancreatic issues, (which I believe, just not to what extent) wouldn't
> feeding thymus be similarly beneficial if fed to dogs with challenged
immune
> systems?
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thymus
*****
Dunno. I tried to make sense of the Wiki entry and failed that part of
the quiz. Seems overly simplistic to me but what do I know.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: Newbie with questions-
Posted by: "helpshelteranimals" helpshelteranimals@yahoo.com helpshelteranimals
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 2:53 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laurie Davis" <lauried0001@...>
wrote:
Basically, I grind whole chickens
> (skin, bones and all), add some liver, heart and gizzards.
************
There is really no reason to grind, your cats will get a kick out of
eating whole pieces of meat...and you will enjoy watching them eat
the way they were designed to eat! It is truley amazing how they do
it!

I
> supplement with fish oil, B-complex, and Vitamin E.
********
I don't supplement with anything.

Also, I throw in a
> few egg yolks (no whites)
*********
Why not the whites? They are beneficial too!

They seem to love this new
> diet-
*************
WONDERFUL! They they will really enjoy whole meat!

Do you think the
> gizzards and heart are enough of a taurine source
**********
I personally feed beef heart (loaded with taurine) to my cats about
every two weeks or so.

AG, Kali (Queen of the House), Moses (Mr. Picky Pants), Miss Kitty
(semi feral)

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: Newbie with questions-
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 2:53 pm ((PST))

Did you join in raw cat list? I think that that list would help you more..

I see some cat postings on this list now and then, but not much and most are with dogs..

I am sure people that have cats could help you here as well but,joining in list exclusively for cats would add more advantage for you to learn.

just a thought

yassy

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around

http://mail.yahoo.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. questions?
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 2:53 pm ((PST))

I have been feeding my small dogs Big Food for the past couple of days.
I feed Big one day and the next day feed very little or nothing then
the next day feed Big Food again. One night she had a large piece of
goat leg and her other big food was a cornish hen. Violeta (the gulper)
has eaten all the food given to her and has spent a terrible night
panting and bloated looking. Is this normal? Am I doing this right?
Should I fast her for a longer period, maybe and extra day? If she
weighs 20 pounds, should I let her eat what I think is 5 or 6 ounces
then take the food away or should I let her eat to her heart's content?
I thought I was understanding raw feeding but have had to change due to
the dogs' gulping and am back at square one, sorry.

Silvina

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

6b. Re: questions?
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 4:17 pm ((PST))

>One night she had a large piece of goat leg and her other big food was a cornish hen. Violeta (the gulper)has eaten all the food given to her and has spent a terrible night
panting and bloated looking.

Hi. Did you feed Goat leg like the one I fed on halloween night to my dog palette which was weighing 5lb,and your dog ate 5lb food??? And couple nights after, violeta ate whole cornish hen??

I believe average of cornish hen weigh around 2lb,isn't it? so,she ate 2lb a day??

My dog palette 35lb dog daily intake is around 10oz,and I feed big once a month (just me) and following days,I feed little to conpensate for previous big meal.

If I let her work on goat leg,I am sure she would eat it until explode but,I took it away from her right around 5th of the goat leg eaten(I weighed from curiousity and,she had 1lb on that big meal day). Then,following 3 days,she had little less amount than normal.

she has been on raw about 5 month(going in 6 months now),and with me trying one of the meal bigger amount and the other meal smaller,trying to let her be able to handle bigger amount of food at one sitting,I throw in once a month big meal day for her fun and trying to build up torelance for bigger meal.I try slow as you can see.

After big meal,she never pant and just throw herself onto carpet after released from kitchen and licking muzzel with tongue and relaxing.

No poo prob too.

Violeta showing any discomfort other than panting and big full tummy?

I never had my palette in such situation so,I cannot say it is a reason but maybe she had too much food to handle in one sitting??

After years of rawfeeding,someday,I too could feed a food for my dog to eat till her heart content but it is still under a year feeding,so,I trying slow.

Maybe next time when you feed big meal,try taking food away when you think she had enough.Trading with chicken feet for me helps for palette's willingness to give up food
for me to pick up. No biting to my fingers or growling.

I hope violeta is fine now...

yassy

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around

http://mail.yahoo.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

6c. Re: questions?
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 5:58 pm ((PST))

>>Violeta (the gulper)
> has eaten all the food given to her and has spent a terrible night
> panting and bloated looking. Is this normal? Am I doing this right?

Silvina,

I would build up gradually to gorge meals, rather than jumping in all at
once - especially with dogs who don't know the meaning of "full", if you
know what I mean.

> Should I fast her for a longer period, maybe and extra day? If she
> weighs 20 pounds, should I let her eat what I think is 5 or 6 ounces
> then take the food away or should I let her eat to her heart's content?

You could do that - feed big and then just remove the rest of the food when
you deem it's enough. You'll have to judge whether or not fasting her for
an extra day is appropriate, though. If you're very worried, you can offer
her a little snack of something.

At my house, we have "good hunting" days and "bad hunting" days - a good
hunting day is when the food is big and bountiful. A bad hunting day is
when the food is small and pitiful (and the Labrador looks pitiful when he
realizes it was a bad hunting day - so sad...but then the good hunting days
more than make up for it later!). It's not a true gorge and fast, but it
works for us.

> I thought I was understanding raw feeding but have had to change due to
> the dogs' gulping and am back at square one, sorry.

You're adapting your approach to suit your dog as an individual - that's
PERFECTLY CORRECT! Of course there's going to be a little trial and error
in the early days to find what works, so cut yourself some slack on this and
give yourself a pat on the back for being willing to learn!

Casey

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

6d. Re: questions?
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 8:31 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "delcaste" <delcaste@...> wrote:
>
Am I doing this right?
> Should I fast her for a longer period, maybe and extra day? If she
> weighs 20 pounds, should I let her eat what I think is 5 or 6 ounces
> then take the food away or should I let her eat to her heart's content?

Hi Silvina,
If i remember correctly, you haven't been feeding raw very long? So
although i am a huge believer in big meals, i don't think they are
advantageous for a new to raw dog. I would still give your gulper big
food, but i would pick it up when you believe she has eaten roughly 2%
of her ideal body weight. It takes time for a dog's digestive system
to build up to the task of processing a big meal. I guess it is kind
of like joining the health club. You don't do max time on all the
machines at once. You slowly work your way up to a big work out. I
think the end goal is to let her eat to her heart's content, but not
just yet. JMO KathyM

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. still wolfing
Posted by: "Mary Tinder" mtinder@tinderco.com mmmaryt
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 4:16 pm ((PST))

Folks, my dane is still wolfing his food. One of the reasons I got
started on this diet was to slow him down, give him something to do.
I've been dealing with a licking granuloma for 1.5+ years and this
was one part of a gunshot effort to deal.

Prior to this diet he would eat his, dare I say, Pedigree kibble, in
the blink of an eye. When we first started raw he was perplexed and
that slowed him.

Tonight I gave him a big feed; a goat leg/haunch. Big goat. Last
time he got this it took him two days to finish. Went inside for
maybe 20 minutes and noticed him staring in the back door. Goat was
gone. I looked for remnants. None. I thought perhaps my sly border
collie stole it and burried it.
Since this was my big feed day and I thought he missed out on the
goat (assumed stolen)I gave him a chicken, big roaster, and locked
him by himself. Four minutes later, Gonesville!

Please, hold my hand. He seems ok and I believe he ate both the goat
leg AND the roaster. I just find the whole process hard to believe,
that he can digest the bones and all without chewing. How the heck
are those whole bones getting out the other end???
Is this incredible gorging ok? From a prior posted recommendation,
my goal was for him to be satiated so he would not eat like a
starving animal.
Should I give him more until he stops on his own? Perhaps switch to
bigger boned animals... ? He's a big, tall dog, perhaps under
classic ideal weight but perfect weight as far as I and my vet are
concerned.

Sorry so long winded.
Mary T, Rumble the Dane, Boda the Boda collie, Lily the lillith dog
I've got

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

7b. Re: still wolfing
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 6:45 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Mary Tinder" <mtinder@...> wrote:
>
> I just find the whole process hard to believe,
> that he can digest the bones and all without chewing.

I have 2 Great Danes and rarely does a meal last more than 5 minutes
and often it is closer to 1 minute. I don't know what you are so
concerned about. He is a dog, not a human. In the wild if you sit
around playing with your food, someone will come along and take it
away from you. You kill something and eat it as fast as possible.

> How the heck
> are those whole bones getting out the other end???

They disolve in the stomach.

> Is this incredible gorging ok?

I don't feed my dogs gorge meals. They get two meals a day but
there is nothing wrong with gorging. Many people here do it.

> From a prior posted recommendation,
> my goal was for him to be satiated so he would not eat like a
> starving animal.

I think you are expecting him to eat with good manners which is a
human concept. Dogs just don't adhere to that.

> Should I give him more until he stops on his own?

Since I don't gorge my dogs, I can't advise on that.

> Perhaps switch to bigger boned animals... ?

Or just stop worrying about his eating habbits. :)

> He's a big, tall dog, perhaps under
> classic ideal weight but perfect weight as far as I and my vet are
> concerned.

If you and your vet and your dog are all happy with everything but
the speed he eats, then I think you have it made. :) :) :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. High BUN and raw meat?
Posted by: "rosey031801" rosey031801@sbcglobal.net rosey031801
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 4:17 pm ((PST))

I have a client that started feeding her 12 year old standard poodle
raw a while back. She is doing great! She had her spleen removed 5
years ago. She now has a high BUN. Of course the vet says the meat is
too high of protien and she should eat his KD canned food. Do any of
you have some experience with this. I would like to see some info from
the experts (you). If it was my dog I wouldn't buy it, but she thinks
she is doing what she has to do. Any advice other than the obvious?
Cheryl

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

8b. Re: High BUN and raw meat?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 4:50 pm ((PST))

Cheryl,

There are many reasons for an elevated BUN...not fasting, dehydration,
stress. Do you know how high it was and whether any of the other levels
(creatinine, specific gravity, etc) were elevated? One elevated BUN does
not equal kidney disease...and even if it did, reducing raw meat and
replacing it with a high carbohydrate food like KD is counterproductive. It
is much harder on all organs to process inappropriate foods. Current
studies show that reducing protein will do more harm than good.

Look back at this message where you will find all the info you need....
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/114796

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "rosey031801" <rosey031801@sbcglobal.net>

I have a client that started feeding her 12 year old standard poodle
raw a while back. She is doing great! She had her spleen removed 5
years ago. She now has a high BUN. Of course the vet says the meat is
too high of protien and she should eat his KD canned food. Do any of
you have some experience with this. I would like to see some info from
the experts (you). If it was my dog I wouldn't buy it, but she thinks
she is doing what she has to do. Any advice other than the obvious?

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. dog needs to lose weight, but...
Posted by: "Kim" two-pups@comcast.net jedikim8
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 5:16 pm ((PST))

Hi all,

My 9.5 year old beagle-mix (5 years on raw) seems to digest her food
very quickly. Waking up in the middle of the night to hear her vomit
bile or bile and bones and a very grumbly/gurgly stomach is not a
rare occurance.

She has put on some weight in the last few months and is now a little
chunky (I think I've been feeding too much). When I decrease the
size of meals, the middle-of-the-night vomiting and asking to go
outside to eat grass become more frequent.

Since she digests her food so quickly and smaller meals are not
lasting long, leading to middle of the night upset stomach, does
anyone have any thoughts/suggestions?

I want her to have enough to eat, but also need her to lose weight
and preferably, sleep through the night.

Thanks,
Kim

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

9b. Re: dog needs to lose weight, but...
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 6:15 pm ((PST))

>My 9.5 year old beagle-mix (5 years on raw) seems to digest her food
very quickly. Waking up in the middle of the night to hear her vomit
bile or bile and bones and a very grumbly/gurgly stomach is not a
rare occurance.

Hi,Kim. Vomit bile,I think is from empty stomach but, bile with bone is I think the meal dog had had too much bone to handle and came out from mouth I think.

To avoid bile vomit,you can give itty bitty before bed snack when dog goes bed.it can help through the night. my dog never vomit by doing this snack before bed.

> When I decrease the size of meals, the middle-of-the-night vomiting and asking to go
outside to eat grass become more frequent.

How much did you decreased the meal size? You cannot dicrease suddenly and I hear 10% decrease is better.

Do you walk your dog? Maybe dog gets chunky because dog eats kcal food more than he/she can burn during the day..

I too like to loose a couple of lb in my dog and, I decreased amount,lowered fat intake,and walk my dog 2 times a day daily,and she lost tiny 0.3kg. It is not big weight to loose but I do not think any persons or dogs can loose weight in a day so,I try to e consistent and be patient with it.I do not want to let her loose weight too suddenly,so,it works for me.

yassy

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around

http://mail.yahoo.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

9c. Re: dog needs to lose weight, but...
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 6:45 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Kim" <two-pups@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> My 9.5 year old beagle-mix (5 years on raw) seems to digest her food
> very quickly. Waking up in the middle of the night to hear
> her vomit
> bile or bile and bones and a very grumbly/gurgly stomach is not a
> rare occurance.

Hey Kin,
How often do you feed her? How long has the middle of the night stuff
been going on? Does it happen every night or just sometimes? If it's
just sometimes can you relate it back to what was fed the previous
meal? What are her stools like?

Weight gain suggests thyroid is something to consider.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10.1. Veggies
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 6:45 pm ((PST))

A friend of mine came in today.
She said she put her dogs (labs about 1 yr old) on "raw" but had to stop
because they had diarrhea for 3 weeks & she did everything right. Her vet
who is all for 'raw' told her that not all dogs can eat raw & to put her
dogs on this expensive "science Diet"......(and alot more stuff she told me)
anyway! Today she tells me she's friends with the top breed of Bernese Mtn
dogs & has fed raw for 26(?) years.....who is friends with (I forgot the
name folks) a man who is the guy who designed the raw diet & brought it to
the United States from another country.
OK!
SO, now maybe you can help me with this.......she also told me that this
breeder friend & this inventor of RAW diet INSIST!!! I MEAN INSIST that
vegetable MUST MUST be fed or......"the dogs will eat grass & throw up due
to lack of vegetables" and she went on to talk about lack of !some other
stuff.......I went into explaining that some people believe that vegetables
can be fed but I feed RMB only.... Well.......
apparently this is wrong! so folks, can you help me out? My dogs DO eat
grass & have thrown up empty bellies (just the grass) so...........
fill me in.........
I am currently feeding chicken, sometimes roast meat, necks (my dogs battle
runs alot) & I add hamburger, etc..... just some other meats but mostly
chicken. Fish oil capsules occasionally (didn't know how often these should
be fed)
I KNOW I am doing alot wrong because I am new still & I am overfeeding my
small dogs. I'll ask the list about that later but can someone, anyone help
me out about this veggie thing?
Trina

--
Chip (deaf Dalmatian)
Casper (deaf Great Dane)
Whisper (deaf Great Dane)
Louie (hearing Great Dane)
Joey (deaf & blind Lhasa Apso)
Amy (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Cassandra (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Mr Paris (Lhasa Apso)
Chloe (deaf & blind Spaniel mix)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (43)
________________________________________________________________________

10.2. Re: Veggies
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 7:58 pm ((PST))

Obviously she *didn't* do everything right, right???? :) All dogs are
carnivores and designed to eat raw, it's the owner who hasn't got it right,
not the dog. Feed a species appropriate diet and the dog will thrive.
She's wrong, the vet is wrong, the breeder is wrong and the "inventor" of
raw (?????) is wrong.

Sounds like they were feeding a typical Billinghurst type diet which would
explain a lot. He believes dogs are omnivores and require a bunch of
inappropriate ingredients, veggies, supplements, etc. It's no wonder a dog
would not do well on that diet. Anyway he did not "design" or "invent" the
raw diet....raw meat and bones is the natural diet of the wolf, always has
been.

Back to the rawfeeding myths where the *facts* are presented....dogs are
carnivores, they do not require carbohydrates, they do not eat veggies,
there is nothing lacking in a species appropriate diet. Nothing has
changed. Eating a little grass now and then doesn't change anatomy and
physiology.

Here are just a few of the myths...you need to read through all of them in
order to get facts so you won't be swayed by well-meaning but uninformed
"friends", vets, breeders, etc.....

Dogs are carnivores...classification is based on anatomy and physiology....
http://rawfed.com/myths/omnivores.html

Dogs are the same species as the grey wolf...this is based on DNA....
http://rawfed.com/myths/changed.html

From wolf studies we know beyond a shadow of a doubt what their diet
includes...
http://rawfed.com/myths/stomachcontents.html

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "T Smith" <coldbeach@gmail.com>
> She said she put her dogs (labs about 1 yr old) on "raw" but had to stop
> because they had diarrhea for 3 weeks & she did everything right. Her vet
> who is all for 'raw' told her that not all dogs can eat raw & to put her
> dogs on this expensive "science Diet"......(and alot more stuff she told
me)
> anyway! Today she tells me she's friends with the top breed of Bernese
Mtn
> dogs & has fed raw for 26(?) years.....who is friends with (I forgot the
> name folks) a man who is the guy who designed the raw diet & brought it to
> the United States from another country.
> OK!
> SO, now maybe you can help me with this.......she also told me that this
> breeder friend & this inventor of RAW diet INSIST!!! I MEAN INSIST that
> vegetable MUST MUST be fed or......"the dogs will eat grass & throw up due
> to lack of vegetables" and she went on to talk about lack of !some other
> stuff.......I went into explaining that some people believe that
vegetables
> can be fed but I feed RMB only.... Well.......
> apparently this is wrong! so folks, can you help me out? My dogs DO eat
> grass & have thrown up empty bellies (just the grass) so...........
> fill me in.........
>

Messages in this topic (43)
________________________________________________________________________

10.3. Re: Veggies
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 8:04 pm ((PST))

"T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:
> who is all for 'raw' told her that not all dogs can eat raw & to
put her
> dogs on this expensive "science Diet"......(and alot more stuff she
told me)
> anyway!
*****
Oh poppycock. The man wants to sell SD, what else is there to say?
Every dog can eat raw food but not every human is ready, willing or
able to determine what the right raw food for the dog is. If she
were my friend and she was still interested in feeding raw, I would
evaluate what she's been feeding and what specific issues the dog
has.

Today she tells me she's friends with the top breed of Bernese Mtn
> dogs & has fed raw for 26(?) years.....who is friends with (I
forgot the
> name folks) a man who is the guy who designed the raw diet &
brought it to
> the United States from another country.
*****
Dog help us, is she referring to Billinghurst? As if he
designed "the" raw diet, as if there is one "the" raw diet that was
designed by anyone. This is certainly giving credit where none is
due.

Since there are tons of endorsements by top breeders ("top breeders"
is a dead giveaway IMO that this is a song and dance) who have fed
XXXkibble for 26 years, it's hard for me to put much unexamined faith
in the reference your friend offers.

this
> breeder friend & this inventor of RAW diet INSIST!!! I MEAN INSIST
that
> vegetable MUST MUST be fed or......"the dogs will eat grass & throw
up due
> to lack of vegetables" and she went on to talk about lack of !some
other
> stuff
*****
Rather than try to recreate the conversation, I suggest you simply
ask your friend for references. No more he said she said, just the
facts. A published article, a book, a website, medical research,
case studies, an interview--something that will offer concrete data
and perhaps even evidence that can be evaluated.

so folks, can you help me out? My dogs DO eat
> grass & have thrown up empty bellies (just the grass) so.
*****
And my dogs did this very thing before they ate raw. There is no
cause and effect related to raw meat, bones, and organs, just
confirmation that grass irritates empty bellies. So what else is new?

I KNOW I am doing alot wrong because I am new still & I am
overfeeding my
> small dogs.
*****
Knowing is a great giant step towards fixing. I suspect you are
doing a lot more right than wrong.

anyone help
> me out about this veggie thing?
*****
What's to help out? You know a dog's physiology, the whole digestive
system, is not constructed to process vegetation; without processing
there can be no nutritional benefit. If wolves were meant to derive
nutrition from vegetation, they would be able to process it. They
cannot: they do not. Any help we humans offer is artifice.

The burden is NOT on you to prove proof.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (43)
________________________________________________________________________

10.4. Re: Veggies
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 8:58 pm ((PST))

Trina!
Take a breath, and STOP listening to people who just repeat second
hand 'I know a man who's cousin's vet's friend's breeder said that her
dogs....." horror stories, and have NO experience feeding REAL raw to MANY
REAL dogs for YEARS.

Why DO you want to drive yourself crazy?

Tell yourself every day ten times, I AM a SMART woman with LOTS of common
sense and I KNOW what is good for my dogs!!!

: )

Put a moratorium on trying to discuss real prey model feeding with friends
or acquaintances for a few more months until you BELIEVE that!

When they SEE how well your dogs are doing, and FEEL how confident and
knowledgeable you've become, they will ASK you for your advice, and then
you'll be ready to share with them.

Honey, take it easy on yourself, we love you here. ^_^

TC
Giselle

On Nov 9, 2007 9:26 PM, T Smith <coldbeach@gmail.com> wrote:

> A friend of mine came in today.
> <snip>
>

> Trina
>
> --
> Chip (deaf Dalmatian)
> Casper (deaf Great Dane)
> Whisper (deaf Great Dane)
> Louie (hearing Great Dane)
> Joey (deaf & blind Lhasa Apso)
> Amy (disabled Lhasa Apso)
> Cassandra (disabled Lhasa Apso)
> Mr Paris (Lhasa Apso)
> Chloe (deaf & blind Spaniel mix)
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (43)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11a. How much do I feed?
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 8:30 pm ((PST))

Hi all,
I am having a problem dieting my little girl on RAW.
It's a tricky situation. Amy should be about 10 - 12 lbs (ideally) but she
is 20 & THAT'S ALOT!! However, the catch is: Amy was born with deformed
joints & has always been heavy no matter how much/little she is fed because
she cannot exercise alot.
Prior to RAW I had started a diet of one can of Mighty dog (the small cans)
per day & she was losing a wee bit of weight.
Amy has always struggled with weight but does anyone have an idea of how
much I can feed her to help her start to lose the weight without 'starving'
her (having her always be hungry)? A meat that is not fattening maybe? I
am stumped. She seems to have put back on a few of those pounds she had
finally lost since I started RAW.
I do give her some exercise, I move her legs to keep things flowing; she's
not paralyzed, she just cannot run much & lays alot. She is also 11 years
old/spayed & otherwise healthy.
I appreciate any advice.
Trina
--
Chip (deaf Dalmatian)
Casper (deaf Great Dane)
Whisper (deaf Great Dane)
Louie (hearing Great Dane)
Joey (deaf & blind Lhasa Apso)
Amy (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Cassandra (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Mr Paris (Lhasa Apso)
Chloe (deaf & blind Spaniel mix)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
mailto:rawfeeding-normal@yahoogroups.com
mailto:rawfeeding-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
rawfeeding-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

------------------------------------------------------------------------