[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12261

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Exciting Discovery Close to Home/Sweetbread Question
From: margo532001
1b. Re: Exciting Discovery Close to Home/Sweetbread Question
From: costrowski75

2a. What online nutrient databases are available?
From: Daisy Foxworth
2b. Re: What online nutrient databases are available?
From: carnesbill
2c. Re: What online nutrient databases are available?
From: Daisy Foxworth
2d. Re: What online nutrient databases are available?
From: Andrea
2e. Re: What online nutrient databases are available?
From: darkstardog

3a. Re: Exciting Discovery Close to Home!
From: miensasis
3b. Re: Exciting Discovery Close to Home!
From: costrowski75

4a. Re: weird poop and rash.....
From: carnesbill

5a. Re: starting my golden on a healthy raw diet
From: carnesbill
5b. Re: starting my golden on a healthy raw diet
From: costrowski75

6a. Can get Rabbits
From: halojo45
6b. Re: Can get Rabbits
From: carnesbill

7. Bran new to raw diet
From: christineryan40

8a. Throwing Up and Explosive Poos
From: helpshelteranimals
8b. Re: Throwing Up and Explosive Poos
From: costrowski75
8c. Re: Throwing Up and Explosive Poos
From: helpshelteranimals

9a. Help for a confused newbie
From: Jennie
9b. Re: Help for a confused newbie
From: carnesbill
9c. Re: Help for a confused newbie
From: Andrea

10a. Re: Organic vs non-organic
From: Shelly

11a. Re: excessive shedding
From: Giselle

12. Newbie with questions-
From: Laurie Davis

13a. Re: Horse okay?
From: Dawn Crosier

Messages
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1a. Re: Exciting Discovery Close to Home/Sweetbread Question
Posted by: "margo532001" semitruestory@gmail.com margo532001
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 7:19 am ((PST))

> How much sweetbread would you give to 9, 30 and 80 # dogs if they
have never had it?
Marguerite
>
>
> Since this is organ meat were talking about, I'd guess you'd have
to take it slow in introducing it, and limit the portion, or just
toss it in all together and let em have at it?
> tom
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com

>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (9)
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1b. Re: Exciting Discovery Close to Home/Sweetbread Question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 8:36 am ((PST))

"margo532001" <semitruestory@...> wrote:
>
> > How much sweetbread would you give to 9, 30 and 80 # dogs if they
> have never had it?
*****
It's not cheap so that alone may determine how much you feed.

I suggest you introduce it slowly by adding small amounts to other
meals your dogs are currently comfortable with. Whether pancreas or
thymus, sweetbreads are glands not organs and take up very little room
in a prey animal. Feeding thymus and/or pancreas occasionally makes
sense in the "whole prey" concept but neither need to be regulars to
the menu nor fed in large amounts.

Dogs with challenged pancreases may benefit from regular doses of raw
pancreas (instead of or in addition to a more concentrated pancreas
supplement) but for healthy dogs a little is plenty.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (9)
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2a. What online nutrient databases are available?
Posted by: "Daisy Foxworth" daisyfoxworth@yahoo.com daisyfoxworth
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 7:19 am ((PST))

I have this one bookmarked:

http://www.nutritiondata.com/tools/nutrient-search

Any other recommended ones? Also hoping for one that includes iodine
content.

Thanks, Daisy

Messages in this topic (5)
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2b. Re: What online nutrient databases are available?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 8:45 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Daisy Foxworth"
<daisyfoxworth@...> wrote:
>
Try this one:

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

I didn't see any iodine listed though. Perhaps it's listed as
something else.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (5)
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2c. Re: What online nutrient databases are available?
Posted by: "Daisy Foxworth" daisyfoxworth@yahoo.com daisyfoxworth
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 8:54 am ((PST))

> >
> Try this one:
>
> http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/
>
> I didn't see any iodine listed though. Perhaps it's listed as
> something else.
>
>
>

Thanks, Bill, I just saw that one listed. I did not see anything
resembling iodine on it either.

Daisy

Messages in this topic (5)
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2d. Re: What online nutrient databases are available?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 9:50 am ((PST))

I looked into iodine content in meats and it appears that it can vary
wildly depending on who raises the food. Many farmers include an
iodine supplement in the feed of the livestock, so the meat ends up
having a higher iodine content than many fruits and vegetables.
The "recommended" levels of iodine are 1.5mg to 50mg per 1kg of food (I
believe that is dry weight). Glad they don't worry about being too
precise with that.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Daisy Foxworth" <daisyfoxworth@...>
wrote:

> Any other recommended ones? Also hoping for one that includes iodine
> content.

Messages in this topic (5)
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2e. Re: What online nutrient databases are available?
Posted by: "darkstardog" darkstardog@charter.net darkstardog
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 11:10 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Daisy Foxworth"
<daisyfoxworth@...> wrote:
>
> Any other recommended ones? Also hoping for one that includes iodine
> content.
>

There's the Finnish one ... it does list iodide content, but I don't
know the source for the info.
http://www.fineli.fi/index.php?lang=en

Messages in this topic (5)
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3a. Re: Exciting Discovery Close to Home!
Posted by: "miensasis" kpmnlm@patmedia.net miensasis
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 7:20 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Giselle <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
>
> Sweetbread can also be pancreas, and thats more likely, I think.
> This link shows listings for beef thymus, but not lamb or pork and
beef,
> pork & lamb pancreas;
>
> http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/
>

Thanks, Giselle. I have bookmarked the USDA website for future
reference--what a nifty site! I had heard it mentioned here before but
hadn't checked it out. And I think I will definitely pick up the beef
sweetbread next time. Seems pretty nutritious.

Nancy

Messages in this topic (9)
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3b. Re: Exciting Discovery Close to Home!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 8:26 am ((PST))

Giselle <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
>
> Sweetbread can also be pancreas, and thats more likely, I think.
*****
I think it's a term that's used more broadly perhaps than it should be
and that regional differences should be taken into consideration.
Certainly I learned it as thymus gland--pancreas was pancreas plain and
simple.

I recommend when a "something weird" is offered for sale and what
that "something weird" is you don't have a clue: Ask the seller.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (9)
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4a. Re: weird poop and rash.....
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 7:20 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "patti.h310" <patti.h310@...>
wrote:
>
> He was on antibiotics and the rash did heal up then it was gone.
> Now its back. His stools were perfect in the beginning of raw
> now they're firm surrounded by liquid.

Ok in re-reading your 3 posts in this thread, I still don't see
anything that says the rash is diet related. Could be an allergy to
something in his environment or could be bacteria related. If
antibiotics clear him up, I would say bacteria related.

I don't see anything to worry about with the stools. My dogs and I
think every dog does that from time to time and in my case, goes
away on its on.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (6)
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5a. Re: starting my golden on a healthy raw diet
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 7:20 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "sullynory" <sullynory@...> wrote:
>
> HI MY NAME IS BOB AND I AM NEW TO THE GROUP, I WAS HOPING FOR MEAL
> SUGGESTIONS FOR MY 4 YEAR OLD GOLDEN RETRIEVER,

My mantra about raw feeding is to look to nature. What would my dog
eat if he was living in the wild? The answer to that is he would eat
any animal he could catch and kill. So the answer to what to feed is
raw meat, bones, and organs from a variety of animals.

What about fruits & veggies?
A lot of people feed their dogs veggies but if you look to nature,
you will see that your dog wouldn't eat veggies in any measurable
amounts. He might eat a few berries or maybe some grass but
certainly not zucchini, carrots, potatoes or any of the veggies that
many people feed. Also you must know that all the cells in all
vegetable matter is covered by a think layer of cellulose. This
cellulose must be crushed during the eating process in order for the
nutrients in the vegetables to be available for digestion. This is
called bioavailablity. The nutrients in vegetable matter is not
bioavailable to our dogs because they don't have the flat molar
teeth that plant eating animals do. Humans, for example, have flat
molars for crushing cellulose during chewing. Dogs molars are called
carnassal teeth and are not flat but work like scissors to rip and
tear meat and crush bones. So, by looking at your dog's teeth, you
can tell that veggies just are not appropriate food for them. The
vegetable material doesn't harm your dog, but it does them no good
either. Giving carrot treats occasionally doesn't hurt. Just make
sure that you don't feed enough veggies to interfere with the amount
of meat, bones, and organs your dog eats.

How do I begin?
First off, you want to begin with one meat source until your dog
gets used to digesting meat. I suggest chicken, specifically chicken
backs only for the first week. Chicken meat is easily digested and
the bones are soft and pliable. The second week, I suggest chicken
backs in the morning and chicken quarters in the evening. The third
week I think it would be good to alternate chicken quarters with
turkey necks in the evening, sticking with chicken backs in the
morning. So one evening you would feed chicken quarters, the next
evening it would be turkey necks, then quarters again then necks,
etc. After a week of that, add another meat. I suggest pork. One
pork meal that week. The next week add one meal of fish. I use
canned salmon or mackerel but raw fish will work just fine. Feed
with bones and organs still attached if you can get that. I feed one
fish meal every week for the omega 3 fatty acids for good bright
shiny coats. Then next week, try something in place of the pork,
maybe lamb or beef. So, after a few weeks you will be feeding most
any meat available. After a month or so of feeding raw, you can add
organ meat. You don't feed a meal of organs, just add some organ
meat to one or 2 meals a week. Not a lot of organ meat as they are
rich and can cause runny stools. Now let's put it all together and
look at the diet I feed my dogs after the introduction period. Every
morning they get chicken backs. The evening meals are alternated
between chicken quarters and turkey necks. One of those evening
meals will be fish + organs + a raw egg (shell and all) + anything
else I may have left over in the fridge. One other night during the
week is for "something else". I may feed a pork roast or pork ribs
or pork shoulder. It may be beef, or lamb. Just something other than
chicken, turkey, or fish. That's it. I keep it as simple as
possible. The more you complicate it, the more complicated it
becomes. Expect your dog to have runny stools for a few days to a
couple of weeks in the beginning. Its part of the process of
learning how to digest meat and is normal. Some dogs don't get runny
stools at all, others last for a couple of weeks.

What organs do I feed?
Liver is the most important and should be at least 50% of the organs
fed. Any kind of liver will do. Chicken, beef, pork, lamb, any of
them. A variety is best over time. Kidney is the next most
nutritious organ to feed. Also lung and pancreas. Heart is not an
organ but a muscle and is good to feed too. Gizzard is also a muscle.

How much do I feed my adult dog?
Each dog is different and that's impossible to say. However, begin
with 2% to 3% of his IDEAL adult weight each day. Watch him over
time and adjust as necessary. If he gets fat, feed less and vice
versa. Many new raw feeders have this great need to measure
everything. That need will quickly disappear and you will just know
how much to feed. You will also stay in touch with your dogs "build"
and adjust his food accordingly.

How much do I feed my puppy?
This one is a little more complicated so pay attention here. Begin
feeding him 10% of his weight a day. Once 10% of his weight exceeds
2% to 3% of his IDEAL ADULT weight (not present weight), feed the 2%
to 3%. All the time you are doing this you are conscious of his
build and adjust the amount of food accordingly. The puppy will tell
you how much to feed him by his build.

How young can I begin feeding raw?
I personally have fed a 12 week old puppy raw. I know breeders who
will wean their puppies directly to raw. My suggestion is to begin
feeding raw the day you bring him home.

Tell me how to balance the diet.
People worry an awful lot about balancing their dog's diet. It seems
to me that they worry more about their dog's diet than their own or
their family's diet. They are dogs. Their digestive systems and
their bodies are not that fragile. Feed meat, bones, and organs from
a variety of animals and the diet will balance itself over time.
Remember that term "over time". It's not necessary to balance each
meal. Balance over time. People getting into raw feeding tend to
worry a lot about ratios and percentages and weights. Forget all
that. Feed raw meat and bones and organs from a variety of animals
and things magically work themselves out. What is ideal? The average
prey animal has about 10% to 15% bone, about 10% organs, and the
rest muscle and fat and connective tissue. If you feed 5% bone or
25% bone, it won't matter. 5% organs or 20% organs doesn't make any
difference. Just stay somewhat in the ballpark and you will be ok.
One thing I look at is the dog's poop. You will become an expert
poop watcher. Ideally, the poop should be solid and turn white and
powdery in a day or 2. If the poop is runny, it generally means you
need to feed more bone. If it is white and powdery when it comes
out, feed less bone. The poop and my dog's build is all I watch and
I don't look at poop very often anymore.

Do I feed supplements?
As long as you feed raw meaty bones and organs from a variety of
animals then you shouldn't need to supplement a healthy dog. Of
course if your dog has a health problem, you might want to add
supplements for that. One more possibility. Some add salmon oil
capsules for omega 3's. I don't because I feed fish at least once a
week.

Where and how do I buy my raw meats?
A good place to buy in bulk is to go to small independent grocery
stores and have them order things like chicken backs and turkey
necks by the case. Backs come in 40# cases and turkey necks come in
30# cases. Small independent stores are usually willing to help you
get cases of meats. The big chain stores just aren't set up for such
purchases. Ethnic markets are another source of meats, particularly
organs. Check with restaurants and see where they get meats and try
those places. Finding cheap meat is fun and will become a game once
you get into raw feeding.

Can you give other tips on raw feeding and how to make it easy?
There are many and you will learn most as you go and you will have
to work out your own routine. It will be complicated and cumbersome
in the beginning but you will work out your routines and it becomes
very little more difficult than feeding kibble. One suggestion is
when you buy by the case, break up the case into meal size portions
and put them in freezer bags. As you feed one meal, get the next out
of the freezer to be thawing.

What about Germs from the raw meat?
The digestive juices of our canines are more than 50% hydrochloric
acid. It is very deadly to the bacteria that your dogs ingest.
Dog/wolves in the wild are exposed to all kinds of e-coli,
salmonella, etc all the time and suffer no ill effects from it.
(Afterall they lick their butts all the time!) A canine in the wild
can stumble upon a carcass of a prey animal that has been dead for a
week or more and will gladly eat it. I had a Golden Retriever whose
favorite treat was a road kill squirrel that had been dead and
laying in the hot sunshine for about a week. Whenever she ate one,
there was never any side effects from it. Its safe to feed your dogs
meat that has gone bad in the refrigerator. Don't worry about germs
when feeding your dog. It's a non-issue. I have never heard of a dog
nor a family member getting sick from feeding your dog raw.

To learn more about raw feeding: Read the book "Work Wonders" by Dr.
Tom Lonsdale You can find it at "www.rawmeatybones.com" .

A few informative web sites are:
"http//rawfeddogs.net/index.php"
"http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html"
"http:rawfed.com/myths/index.html"

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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5b. Re: starting my golden on a healthy raw diet
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 8:20 am ((PST))

"sullynory" <sullynory@...> wrote:
I WAS HOPING FOR MEAL
> SUGGESTIONS FOR MY 4 YEAR OLD GOLDEN RETRIEVER, HE WAYS 80 POUNDS ,
AND
> I HAVE BEEN FEEDING HIM INNOVA ADULT FOOD, WOULD LIKE TO SWITCH, BUT
> WOULD LIKE COMPLETE MEAL SUGGESTIONS , I HAVE BEEN FEEDING TWICE
DAILY,
> HE IS ACTIVE , WE BIKE 3 MILES EVERY OTHER DAY ,AND COMPETE IN
> OBEDIENCE,THANKS BOB
*****
Mornin', Bob. What a good idea to switch your golden boy to raw food.
Given the health trials and tribulations our goldens are subject to
these days, everything we can do to support their immune system, we
should do. My goldens (were four, now down to two) took to raw like
they'd been watiting all their lives for me to figure it out.

I think you'll be surprised by the "complete meal suggestions" a raw
menu offers. For our domestic wolves, complete meals can be as simple
as "buy chicken, feed it", and "unwrap pork shoulder roast, feed it",
and "buy lamb leg, feed it". Possibly the most complicated meal might
be "acquire whole cow, butcher it", but while this is totally excellent
to some minds it is not standard practice for most raw feeders.

There's no grinding, blendering or other processing; there is no
vegetable matter to add, nor supplemental powders and pills. There are
no fancy stores to buy from, just supermarkets, ethnic markets,
butchers, meat wholesalers, farmers' markets and--if you've got
connections--farmers, ranchers and hunters.

Think prey model (as in What Would a Wolf Eat?), think body parts,
think whole foods: meat, organs, edible bone. I recommend you check
out rawfeddogs at http://rawfeddogs.net for other recipes, complete
with pictures.

You might want to visit http://rawfed.com for additional information--
and don't forget to read the Myths section. Also take some time to
browse the list archives, accessible via the webpage on Yahoogroups.

Oh, and by the way. I have working goldens--hunting, field trailing,
competitive obedience. Raw suits busy goldens like nobody's business.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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6a. Can get Rabbits
Posted by: "halojo45" hanne@hajo.us halojo45
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 7:30 am ((PST))

Question: how do I want them? I'm able to purchase rabbits,
prepared or not. Living in the city, feeding inside the house on a
towel, how do I want to serve them up? My pups get each 2#/day.
Hanne

Messages in this topic (2)
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6b. Re: Can get Rabbits
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 8:45 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "halojo45" <hanne@...> wrote:
>
> Question: how do I want them? I'm able to purchase rabbits,
> prepared or not. Living in the city, feeding inside the house on a
> towel, how do I want to serve them up? My pups get each 2#/day.
> Hanne
>
Some dogs don't like rabbit so I would first order a few skinned and
gutted to see how the dogs take to it. You can either cut it in half
or just take it up when they have eaten what they need.

After you know they like rabbit, order them skinned but with guts
intact. It will be messy but my dogs clean everything up except the
intestines and stomach contents.

After everyone has adjusted to that get them with skin on and guts
intact. My dogs won't eat bought rabbits with skin on but they devour
wild rabbits they catch with no problem. Who knows why? :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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7. Bran new to raw diet
Posted by: "christineryan40" christineryan40@yahoo.com christineryan40
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 9:41 am ((PST))

MODERATOR'S NOTE: SIGN YOUR MESSAGES PLEASE.

Hi, my name is Chrissy and I have a one yr old English Bulldog, for the
past few months we have been feeding her Nature's Variety Raw food, she
seems to regurgitate it all the time so my husand wants to feed her a
more natural raw diet. I am so confused on everything I read and don't
want to deprive her of any nutrients she might need. We got her a
split chicken breast last night and she kept licking it but the poor
lil girl had no idea what to do with it. Any advise would be greatly
appreciated.

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8a. Throwing Up and Explosive Poos
Posted by: "helpshelteranimals" helpshelteranimals@yahoo.com helpshelteranimals
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 9:41 am ((PST))

Ok, this is the first time I have ever had this happen...

For the last three days Ruffian has been eating off a whole chicken
(one from the grocery store...so it's 'whole' not whole) eating mostly
the breast meat. Yesterday I bought 2 turkey thighs one of which I
gave to Ruffian around 10:30am yesterday. He ate it all (even the
bone) and was fine. I have noticed him OVER self regulating lately and
decided to bring the chicken back out at around 6:00pm last night. He
happily ate off of it a leg and some breast meat.

This morning when I got up there was two big piles of puke with bone in
it (I can understand the bone and am not worried) but he had also made
a pile of soupy gealatinous poo that also spaltered quite far. He has
eaten turkey before and had eaten a lot more than he did yesterday with
no problems. He also didn't have organ this whole week so I know it
wasn't that. What could it have been?!
He didn't eat that much meat!

AG & Ruffian (Prince of Puke & Soupy Poos)

Messages in this topic (3)
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8b. Re: Throwing Up and Explosive Poos
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 10:29 am ((PST))

"helpshelteranimals" <helpshelteranimals@...> wrote:
> This morning when I got up there was two big piles of puke with
bone in
> it (I can understand the bone and am not worried) but he had also
made
> a pile of soupy gealatinous poo that also spaltered quite far. He
has
> eaten turkey before and had eaten a lot more than he did yesterday
with
> no problems. He also didn't have organ this whole week so I know
it
> wasn't that. What could it have been?!
*****
I are clueless and clueless is not so bad.
I suggest you not feed him (water is okay) for 24 hours to let
whatever was bugging him stop bugging him. Not even Slippery Elm
unless he is a horking or squirting fool.

Then feed him a small meal when it's time to eat again. Between now
and when you will be feeding him, you'll either see more indications
of digestive unrest, or you will not. If there are more--and worse--
symptoms the issue is proably not food. Which of course narrows it
down only slightly. And you might consider intervention.

Once, after a leg o' lamb meal, one of my thoroughly acclimated
goldens evacuated EVERYTHING. Total system cleanout, no stone left
unturned. The other dogs were keen to re-eat the vomit (undigested
as it was) and well, I cleaned everything up and made sure the source
of all this effluvia was comfortable and that was that. Next day he
was a happy camper and ate a skinless chicken breast w/o event.
Nothing more came of all that sound and fury.

I'm not saying you should disregard his upheaval but I do think you
should try to let time work its magic on him. Eyes open, anxiety
level low, okay?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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8c. Re: Throwing Up and Explosive Poos
Posted by: "helpshelteranimals" helpshelteranimals@yahoo.com helpshelteranimals
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 11:57 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:

> I suggest you not feed him (water is okay) for 24 hours to let
> whatever was bugging him stop bugging him.
****************
I know this is very silly but I'm afraid if he skips a meal he
will 'blow away in the wind'! He is a VERY thin dog! But I will not
feed him ANYTHING today.

> unless he is a horking or squirting fool.
***********
Funny thing is that I heard neither hork nor squirt last night! Just
a few low whines (which he sometimes does when he is chewing on his
paws..reaction to flea bite). (He is tied up in our small bedroom at
night (only two feet away from the bed on a long leash with no
choking threats (made quite sure). Since he has a reaction to the
flea bite/s he will tear himself bloody if we do not stop him
from 'eating' himself. At night he likes to hid under the bed and
chew himself where we cannot stop him...hence the reason for the
leash.)

> Once, after a leg o' lamb meal, one of my thoroughly acclimated
> goldens evacuated EVERYTHING. ... The other dogs were keen to re-
eat the vomit (undigested
> as it was)
**********
Poor thing! Bless your other dogs hearts...mine completely avoids
(as in walking WAY around them) things discarded from either end of
the cats, himself, or other dogs.

I do think you
> should try to let time work its magic on him. Eyes open, anxiety
> level low, okay?
> Chris O
******************
Very hard for someone experiencing this for the first time. He is on
kennel rest still (from ruining his knee from scratching...another
result from his reaction to flea bite/s!)...so we will see how clean
it is when I get home! Yikes!

Thanks for calming the nerves a bit Chris O.!

AG & Ruffian (probably squeezing his little puppy buns together last
night and doing the poopy dance)

Messages in this topic (3)
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9a. Help for a confused newbie
Posted by: "Jennie" jenniewitch@yahoo.com jenniewitch
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 11:08 am ((PST))

Hi y'all
My name is Jenn and I am now the proud mama of an 8 week old Chinese Crested. My plans are to feed her raw but it seems the more I read the more confused I get on what and how to do it.

Some sites say give greens and fruits, some say no, some say give a whole carcass some say avoid the necks. It's enough to make my head spin!

Right now I just have a small freezer stash of chicken feet, gizzards, hearts, livers & giblets. I know I need some more meaty bones from other sources as well, and fish? But not pacific northwest salmon (which I get free but found I can't use)?

So what all do I need and how do I start her out on this? Thanks in advance :)

Jenn C

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Messages in this topic (3)
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9b. Re: Help for a confused newbie
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 11:57 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Jennie <jenniewitch@...> wrote:
>
> My name is Jenn and I am now the proud mama of an 8 week
> old Chinese Crested. My plans are to feed her raw but it seems
> the more I read the more confused I get on what and how to do it.

Once you get into it, you will see how easy it really is and will
wonder why you were so confused. :) It is much much simpler than
feeding humans. :)

> Some sites say give greens and fruits, some say no, some say
> give a whole carcass some say avoid the necks. It's enough to
> make my head spin!

Whenever in doubt, look to nature. What would a wild dog/wolf eat
if left to his own devices? They would eat the meat, bones, and
organs of any animal they could catch and kill. Certainly not
fruits and veggies except as small snacks maybe. Rarely do they eat
stomach contents and even then the stomach contents are usually not
fruits and veggies but partially digested grass, weeds, twigs, and
leaves. How nutritous is that? Forget fruits and veggies.

Whole carcasses are great. Necks are ok for your little dog right
now but as he gets larger, I wouldn't feed chicken necks or wings
just because of the size.

> Right now I just have a small freezer stash of chicken
> feet, gizzards, hearts, livers & giblets. I know I need some
> more meaty bones from other sources as well, and fish?

Yes, you need to feed a vareity of animal parts from a variety of
animals. Feed mostly meat, some bone, and some organs. You have no
meat listed above and that should be the greatest portion of the
diet.

> But not pacific northwest salmon (which I get free but found
> I can't use)?

Yes, you can feed PNW salmon fine. Just freeze it for a few weeks
or a month before feeding and it will be ok. Personally I wouldn't
feed it more than a couple of times a week. I think they need more
substantial meat than fish most of the time.

> So what all do I need and how do I start her out on this?

Get the book "Work Wonders" by Tom Lonsdale. You may download the
book for $9.95 from http://www.ebookmall.com/ebooks-authors/tom-
lonsdale-ebooks.htm or order hard copy either at

http://www.dogwise.com or at http://www.amazon.com (cheaper).

A few informative web sites are:
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm (My web page)
http://rawfeddogs.net/

--- be sure and check the recipes page.
http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html
http://www.rawmeatybones.com

Read all the posts you can on this list. There is a lot of
information here.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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9c. Re: Help for a confused newbie
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 12:05 pm ((PST))

Yeah, it can get really confusing, but let me try and simplify it for
you. Your dog is a wolf that looks fancy, feed it as a wolf would
feed itself in the wild.

Feed whole pieces (not ground) that are mostly meat and sometimes
with a little bone. Overall you want to feed mostly meat, some
edible bone, and some organs. Start out with whole chickens whacked
into meal sized portions. A day's worth of food for a chinese
crested will be about 4% of their expected ideal body weight. Feed
chicken for a couple of weeks so that you and the dog get used to the
new routine. Once chicken is under your belt move on to another
protein source. Keep reading here and you'll have all your questions
answered by the time you are ready to move on.

> Some sites say give greens and fruits, some say no,

The answer to that is "No". Dogs are carnivores and have no
nutritional requirement for fruits or veggies.

> some say give a whole carcass some say avoid the necks.

It depends on the size of your dog. The rule of thumb is to feed
food that is at least as big as the dog's head. Avoid anything the
dog can try to swallow whole (wich excludes chicken necks for all but
the smallest dogs).

> Right now I just have a small freezer stash of chicken feet,
> gizzards, hearts, livers & giblets.

Feet are great treats, gizzards and hearts count as meaty meat,
livers should stay in the freezer for the time being.

You have a small dog, so a small freezer should be just fine (= I'd
suggest getting a whole chicken and cutting it into maybe 8 pieces.
Just one chicken should last your girl a good while.

> I know I need some more meaty bones from other sources as well, and
> fish?

Fish is good if you can get it, but not necessary.

> But not pacific northwest salmon (which I get free but found I
> can't use)?

<gasp> Absolutely you can use salmon! Just freeze it solid for a
couple of weeks if it is wild caught.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (3)
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10a. Re: Organic vs non-organic
Posted by: "Shelly" StuartLittle@comcast.net stuartjeanlittle
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 1:26 pm ((PST))

First, I have trimmed this post some, but probably not enough, but it's all
related. I didn't see the beginning of this conversation, probably started
before I joined, but I have an opinion on this subject and wanted to
comment :-) (but not condemning anyone who doesn't agree with me)

Anyway, for me, there is a difference. I agree, raw anything is better than
kibble, and everyone should do the best they can with what they can afford.
I get all my meat from an Amish farmer. Everything on his farm is organic,
sustainable, humane, and natural. All of his cattle graze freely on lush
grassy fields, they are never in their life fed any grains, given any
hormones or antibiotics or anything of the sort. They are never put in any
kind of pen, they are humanely killed in the field where they graze. He does
have hay that he supplements with during the winter, but he doesn't slaughter
during the winter. The meat is MUCH healthier when the cattle have been
grazing on live growing grass. We will buy our beef (we buy a whole beef at
a time for both humans and canines) this month and go to the farm to pick it
up next month (it has to hang for a while, aged is better). We pay $2.25 /
lb. That may sound expensive for some cuts, but it's cheap for others, so it
really works out to be less expensive than buying each cut individually in a
grocery store or anywhere and our freezer has more than paid for itself. We
get all the bones and organs free (they are already removed when weighed),
and he will save the tripe for us as well (free also but I have to cut it up
myself), it turns out to be a huge amount of tripe, and not much fun to cut
up (stinky), but it's worth it to watch the dogs enjoy it. I have seen the
horrors of feed lots up close and in person, and I don't want to promote that
kind of factory farming if I can help it. Those "last few months" you speak
of, if they take place in a feed lot like 90% of them do, are nothing short
of hell and result in much less healthy meat (especially regarding fats -
studies have shown CLA and omega 3's are much, much higher in grass fed as
opposed to grain "finished" beef whether they were grain finished in a feed
lot or on a family farm).

I just wanted to point out that there really is a huge difference between the
meat I buy and the meat in the grocery stores (organic or not) and I'm paying
less than grocery store prices, so...

I am not getting duped by any gimmick, I'm buying smarter and feeding
healthier.

Shelly

On Thursday 08 November 2007 10:23, MORGAN LEWIS wrote:
Gee this reminds me of some of my favorite GSD sites, I ought to fit right in.
There are some smaller suppliers that do not use chemicals, antibiotics or
hormones, period. They are more expensive, and probably worth it. God knows
we put enough junk in our bodies. If you have ever been around some of these
commercial chicken hatcheries, you would be amazed at the vitamins ,
antibiotics and hormones those animals are given.

From a practicle point of view, either source is a hell of a lot better than
kibble. If you can find a great reliable source of chemical, hormone,
antibiotic free meat and can afford the prices, go for it. If you can not,
then do what you can. Neither effort is incorrect, and both are better than
most of the dogs in the world will ever see. So pat yourself on the back.
Morgan and his Angels

carnesbill <carnesw@bellsouth.net> wrote:
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Me" <earthmoontide@...> wrote:

No, Catherine is absolutely correct. People are being duped into
buying more expensive food products by good marketing of the same
food.

> > I REFUSE to pay extra for "organic" or "free range" or "all
> > natural" or "cage free" meat. To me these are just gimics for
> > charging more for the same meat animals we already buy for
> > far less.
>
> They are not the same animals. Chemicals, or hormones added
> to feed change the quality of the animal that eats the feed.

Yes they are. You should look up the requirements for something to
be called "organic" or "free range" or "all natural". "Organic"
animals are given exactly the same chemicals as non-organic except
for the last month or so of it's life.

ALL cattle are free range and grass fed until the last few months of
his life. As far as I know there are no calves born and put in a
small pen and fed grain it's whole life. THey are all raised in
pastures, free ranging for all but the last few months.

There are many cattle farms around me and my brother raises cattle.
All of these farmers ... every single one of them ... when they get
ready to kill a cow for their own consumption will "put it up" in a
pen and feed it grain for a few months before slaughter to fatten it
up and add flavor to the meat.

> If an animal cannot be free, I would rather it is kept in a fenced
> pasture with naturally occuring grass/food than keeping the poor
> creature contained with little opportunity for movement and
> fed from a man-made-unnaturally-occurring bucket.

You can rest easier. They are all kept in fenced pastures and eat
grass until the last few months of their lives.

> "Organically raised" meat means that they aren't given
> any unnatural medications or anti-biotics, so I really
> don't understand your complaint.

It means they aren't given any chemicals the last month or so of
their life.

Messages in this topic (2)
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11a. Re: excessive shedding
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 1:45 pm ((PST))

**** Hi, Roberta! ****
Hi Giselle!

> Thank you for you reply, over a period of a week I try to give her chicken
> (whole Cornish hens), lamb,(neck bones with meat) pork, (shoulder and neck
> bones with meat) and beef, (neck bones) once a week some fish (salmon head
> which is full of meat and bones,
> I've tried the whole fish like mackerel she doesn't eat it so I also give
> her fish oil) the lamb and beef is usually neck bones with lots of meat on
> it, I also occasionally give her ground beef instead of the beef neck bones
> (depends on what I find) I give her a small piece of liver or kidney
> everyday with her meat and bones. (I bought the liver and the kidney cut it
> up and froze it into portions) I also have lamb heart and sometimes I feed
> that as the protein ( I was told it is not considered an offal more like
> protein?)
>

> **** Are the Cornish hens really cheap for you, why do you not use
> 'regular' chicken? Cornish hens are smaller, the bones are softer, but
> generally they are more expensive and are just young chickens, really.
>

> Neck bones, whether beef, lamb or pork, are pretty much too bony to feed
> by themselves, that would be a great use for the ground beef you feed - I
> feed ground beef thats so-cheap-you-can't-pass-it-up, but freeze a wad of it
> onto a pork neck bone (whole) when I'm repackaging for storage after
> shopping. Your girl would benefit from more meat in her diet, I think.
>

> Pork, in the form of shoulder roasts or fresh hams offer more meat, skin
> and fat for boneless meat and edible bone. The liver and kidney sounds
> great! Heart from any animal is great meatymeat, beef is usually very
> reasonable, and can be fed as a boneless meal.
>

> Fish or Salmon oil is a great addition to the diet, but make sure there
> are no plant oils or flavorings added.
>

>
> Salmon heads are great, but again, by themselves a bit bony. Just because
> your girl initially refused mackerel doesn't mean that she'll never eat it.
> Try cutting it up in small chunks and tossing them to her one by one as a
> 'treat' when you're getting the people dinner ready, dropping them as an
> "Ooops, the dog can clean that up.', or just mix a few small bits up into
> some ground beef for a meal. My girl likes her fish frozen. Here's some
> other suggestions;
>
> *http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/130758

*
>
> *Message #130758*
>
> *http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/134336*
>

> On this list we support and promote a species appropriate raw whole prey
> model diet, which is significantly different from some other well known
> diets 'out there', in that the emphasis is on feeding either the whole
> animal, or as much as we can obtain, over time - much more meat, much less
> bone, larger animal parts, no, or little ground meats and as much variety in
> protein and animal parts as possible. Here are some links to websites and
> archived messages that will explain better;
>
> http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html
>
> http://www.rawlearning.com/supplementmyths.html
>
> http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html
>
> http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes
>
> http://rawfeddogs.net/FAQlist
>

> The Lis List, towards the end of this last link, can help you with finding
> and sourcing protein variety;
>
> *http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374 *
>
> *post # 141374 *****
>

> When I first started she was eating about 1.75lbs a day then I saw her
> getting too chunky so now its around 1.25lb sometimes a bit more and
> sometimes closer to 1lb.
>

> **** Monitoring your dog's weight and tweaking the amounts you feed up or
> down in response to the dog's needs are important, and a smart thing to do.
> When you start to feed more meat, more fat and less bone, you may have to
> adjust the amounts you feed regularly. ****
>

> Occasionally there is some leftover cooked meat and I have given that to
> her, is that a bad thing?
>

> **** As long as its not a significant part of the diet, no worries. : )
> ****
>

> I would like to order green tripe from Bravos as have been told it is
> full of nutrients and very good for them.
>

>
> **** Tripe is a good addition, it adds variety, and dogs love it! It is
> stinky, tho' ; ) Mixing it in with refused meats can change a dog's mind!
> ****
>
I am still a newbie and am scared at times that I am doing something wrong,
> I do thank you for all your help.
>

**** NP, YQW! ^_^ Just post a lot with updates and ask lots of questions!
****

> TC Giselle
>

Roberta
> (Maxie II)
>
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com <rawfeeding%40yahoogroups.com>, Giselle
> <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Maxie, is it?
> <snip>
> > Just in case the raw diet you're feeding needs tweaking, what *exactly*
> are
> > you feeding? Plenty of meat and protein variety? Edible bone? Liver and
> > other organs? How much? How often?
> >
> > TC
> > Giselle
> > with Bea in New Jersey
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
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12. Newbie with questions-
Posted by: "Laurie Davis" lauried0001@yahoo.com lauried0001
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 2:00 pm ((PST))

Hi everyone- I am new to the group. I have a 5 year-old Bengal, and a 2
1/2 year-old Desert Lynx that I recently put on a raw diet. The recipe
I am using is one derived from www.catnutrition.org - only I have
adapted to what is available to me. Basically, I grind whole chickens
(skin, bones and all), add some liver, heart and gizzards. To this, I
supplement with fish oil, B-complex, and Vitamin E. Also, I throw in a
few egg yolks (no whites) for good measure. They seem to love this new
diet- does it appear I have all my bases covered? Do you think the
gizzards and heart are enough of a taurine source, or should I
supplement with that as well?

Also, we have 2 ferrets that I want to switch to raw. Does anyone have
any information about what would need to be added to the above diet to
make it appropriate for ferrets? All my research seems to indicate that
it should be fine, but I would love to hear everyone's thoughts.

Thanks!!
Laurie

Messages in this topic (1)
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13a. Re: Horse okay?
Posted by: "Dawn Crosier" dlcrosier@sbcglobal.net dlc110161
Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 2:00 pm ((PST))

I'd go for it! Until you know that your furry babies are going to take to
it, I'd not order up a whole bunch though. Would hate for you to stock up
and then have your babies throw a tantrum and refuse it. <smile>

Dawn

-----Original Message-----
From: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com [mailto:rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Deb
Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2007 8:28 PM
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [rawfeeding] Horse okay?

A friend of mine today told me that I could have as much horse meat as
I wanted for free (she works at a wildlife place, and they get horses

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Messages in this topic (5)
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