[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12256

There are 20 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: price of turkey, chicken; freezer question
From: Me
1b. Re: price of turkey, chicken; freezer question
From: Me
1c. Re: price of turkey, chicken; freezer question
From: carnesbill

2a. Re: Not Eating - Depressed?
From: MORGAN LEWIS
2b. Re: Not Eating - Depressed?
From: Howard Salob

3a. Re: Feeding Pork
From: doreenchui
3b. Re: Feeding Pork
From: Andrea

4a. Re: Poop does not look good - yellow
From: cynthiashankman
4b. Re: Poop does not look good - yellow
From: katkellm
4c. Re: Poop does not look good - yellow
From: barrettsmadison
4d. Re: Poop does not look good - yellow
From: Andrea
4e. Re: Poop does not look good - yellow
From: carnesbill

5a. slower maturity
From: Felicia Kost
5b. Re: slower maturity
From: carnesbill

6a. Re: excessive shedding
From: maxieii
6b. excessive shedding
From: Cris Milam
6c. Re: excessive shedding
From: maxieii

7. HAPPY DOGS!!!
From: jose

8a. Dogs eating fruit and vegetables?
From: Penny Sanford Fikes
8b. Re: Dogs eating fruit and vegetables?
From: Andrea

Messages
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1a. Re: price of turkey, chicken; freezer question
Posted by: "Me" earthmoontide@yahoo.com.au earthmoontide
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 4:32 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Morledzep@... wrote:

> ***i probably shouldn't respond to this. But I'm gonna anyway.

Yes, correct. After reading your blurb, I wished you hadn't
responded. It reads as an uninformed, selfish blurb.

>
> The goal, at least in my mind, is to get the best we can with the
money allotted to us.

This I agree with. However, purchasing chemically tainted meat is
not getting the best we can with the money 'allocated' to us.

>
> I REFUSE to pay extra for "organic" or "free range" or "all
natural" or "cage free" meat. To me these are just gimics for
charging more for the same meat animals we already buy for far less.

They are not the same animals. Chemicals, or hormones added to feed
change the quality of the animal that eats the feed.

>
> chickens, cows and pigs as we know them as meat animals are NOT
animals that occur naturally in the wild. There is no natural diet
for them.

Regardless of whether the animals currently in our food chain occur
naturally, the status of 'organic' meat means (as I understand it)
that there are no unnatural chemicals to be found in the flesh of
that meat. Therefore, it's a healthier choice.

>Herbivores that are raised in a pasture with grass to eat have
higher O3 ratios than grainfed animals, but grass is far cheaper
than grain, and fencing a pasture is far less expensive than keeping
them contained and fed from a bucket.
>

If an animal cannot be free, I would rather it is kept in a fenced
pasture with naturally occuring grass/food than keeping the poor
creature contained with little opportunity for movement and fed from
a man-made-unnaturally-occurring bucket. PROFIT aside, and from an
omnivore's view, I think the resulting edible flesh fares better
from a happier animals lifestyle, rather than a 'neat'
and 'convenient' farmer's habits.

> And "organically raised" meat animals are still fed the same
inappropriate foods.. and still aren't required to be "pastured",
the only requirement is that they aren't given any medications or
anti-biotics, so if they get sick and need medical attention they
are moved to the herd on the other side of the property that isn't
organic.

"Organically raised" meat means that they aren't given any unnatural
medications or anti-biotics, so I really don't understand your
complaint. If you're talking about appropriate food, then perhaps
you'd best educate yourself about bio-dynamic food. As I understand
it, bio-dynamic food is a step up from organic food, and when
applied properly, results in a natural cycle for all living things.

>
> i just can't bring myself to pay extra for meat that requires less
work and less money to raise. Or for a name on a package that has
no official meaning, like "pastured" or "all natural".

How you spend your money is your business. Trying to justify your
economical choice by bagging an equally sensible chemically-free
lifestyle is ridiculous. If you wish to save money by feeding
chemically-tainted food, that's your choice. If somebody chooses to
spend their money on healthier food, that's their choice.

>
> and folks that look down their snotty noses at people that choose
to buy food that costs less even when they can afford to buy the
more expensive meats need a reality check.. or beaten severely about
the head until some sense sinks in.
>
> Catherine R.
>
>

It's really quite rude AND socially innappropriate to both bag
somebody AND threaten them with beatings because they think
differently from you.

EMT

Messages in this topic (17)
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1b. Re: price of turkey, chicken; freezer question
Posted by: "Me" earthmoontide@yahoo.com.au earthmoontide
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 4:53 am ((PST))

To all members:

In re-reading my post that begins below, it occurred to me that the
way the response and original post was set out was unclear. With that
in mind, I would like to say that my sentiments stand, but the person
I addressed probably needs to be clarified.....

EMT

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Me" <earthmoontide@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Morledzep@ wrote:
>
> > ***i probably shouldn't respond to this. But I'm gonna anyway.
>
>
> Yes, correct. After reading your blurb, I wished you hadn't
> responded. It reads as an uninformed, selfish blurb.
>

Messages in this topic (17)
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1c. Re: price of turkey, chicken; freezer question
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 7:00 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Me" <earthmoontide@...> wrote:
>
> Yes, correct. After reading your blurb, I wished you hadn't
> responded. It reads as an uninformed, selfish blurb.

No, Catherine is absolutely correct. People are being duped into
buying more expensive food products by good marketing of the same
food.

> > I REFUSE to pay extra for "organic" or "free range" or "all
> > natural" or "cage free" meat. To me these are just gimics for
> > charging more for the same meat animals we already buy for
> > far less.
>
> They are not the same animals. Chemicals, or hormones added
> to feed change the quality of the animal that eats the feed.

Yes they are. You should look up the requirements for something to
be called "organic" or "free range" or "all natural". "Organic"
animals are given exactly the same chemicals as non-organic except
for the last month or so of it's life.

ALL cattle are free range and grass fed until the last few months of
his life. As far as I know there are no calves born and put in a
small pen and fed grain it's whole life. THey are all raised in
pastures, free ranging for all but the last few months.

IF the chickens in the factory farm chicken houses can see the sky,
they can be called "free range".

There are many cattle farms around me and my brother raises cattle.
All of these farmers ... every single one of them ... when they get
ready to kill a cow for their own consumption will "put it up" in a
pen and feed it grain for a few months before slaughter to fatten it
up and add flavor to the meat.

> Regardless of whether the animals currently in our food
> chain occur
> naturally, the status of 'organic' meat means (as I understand it)
> that there are no unnatural chemicals to be found in the flesh of
> that meat. Therefore, it's a healthier choice.

Technically there is none in their meat but it is not tested. THey
are given the same chemicals up until the last month or so of it's
life. "It's a healther choice" only if the chemicals given the
animal are harmful.

> If an animal cannot be free, I would rather it is kept in a fenced
> pasture with naturally occuring grass/food than keeping the poor
> creature contained with little opportunity for movement and
> fed from a man-made-unnaturally-occurring bucket.

You can rest easier. They are all kept in fenced pastures and eat
grass until the last few months of their lives.

> "Organically raised" meat means that they aren't given
> any unnatural medications or anti-biotics, so I really
> don't understand your complaint.

It means they aren't given any chemicals the last month or so of
their life.

> How you spend your money is your business. Trying to justify your
> economical choice by bagging an equally sensible chemically-free
> lifestyle is ridiculous.

Being duped into buying the same product at a higher product is what
is ridiculous. If you are an american and have grown up watching
television you should know by now that most products are not what
their advertising claims.

> > and folks that look down their snotty noses at people
> that choose to buy food that costs less even when they can
> afford to buy the more expensive meats need a reality check..
> or beaten severely about the head until some sense sinks in.

> It's really quite rude AND socially innappropriate to both bag
> somebody AND threaten them with beatings because they think
> differently from you.

I think it's funny. Where is your sense of humor? Catherine made
some very good points in her post.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (17)
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2a. Re: Not Eating - Depressed?
Posted by: "MORGAN LEWIS" shadowland22000@yahoo.com shadowland22000
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 4:32 am ((PST))

Hormone shift may explain most of the problem, just bear with her a little while longer, Morgan

Me <earthmoontide@yahoo.com.au> wrote: Hi all. My maremma bitch hasn't been eating regularly for a little
while now, and I'm after advice. She's 13 months old and has been
brought up with chicken (flesh & bones) as her main diet, with
different meat/bones/skin/organs regularly appearing on the menu.

She appears happy most of the time, and has recently just undergone
her first season with no male visitors. Every now and then I'll
hear her 'sigh'.

She's a strong defender of our property, likes to spend the evening
inside with our family, and has recently been camping with us.
Other than that, everything is normal.

We have a completely "mainstream" vet in our town. I'm against
immunisation and try to do things as naturally as possible.
Visiting the vet has to be an absolutely last venture. Any ideas?

Any angry replies regarding my stance on immunisation need not reply.

Thanks,

EMT

Morgan and His Angels
Precious, OFA
Princess, CGC, TDI, GSDCA Health Award

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Messages in this topic (3)
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2b. Re: Not Eating - Depressed?
Posted by: "Howard Salob" itiskismet1968@yahoo.com itiskismet1968
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 4:52 am ((PST))

Me <earthmoontide@yahoo.com.au> wrote: Dear EMT,

I have not met a dog that has not gone crazy for green tripe. You might want to try that. You might want to take dog out to dog park and that might cheer her up.

Sincerely,

Howard

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Messages in this topic (3)
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3a. Re: Feeding Pork
Posted by: "doreenchui" doreenchui@yeos.com doreenchui
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 5:52 am ((PST))

I thought I read somewhere in terms of nutritional values, it's last on
the list and not highly recommended.
Doreen
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> Butt roasts, blade roasts, shoulder roasts, fresh ham, slabs of
> ribs...generally these go on sale for under $1/lb.
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>
> From: "cynthia iparraguirre" <cyn7711@...>
>
>
> > I want to introduce my Lab to pork; however, since I don't eat pork
> myself, I am not familiar with "pork lingo". What cuts are better
suited for
> my dog & what price should I expect to pay for them?
>

Messages in this topic (25)
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3b. Re: Feeding Pork
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 6:45 am ((PST))

What, pork? Heck no, it's a great and cheap red meat. Between the
choice of feeding mostly chicken or mostly pork, mostly pork wins hands
(or trotters) down.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "doreenchui" <doreenchui@...> wrote:
>
> I thought I read somewhere in terms of nutritional values, it's
> last on the list and not highly recommended.

Messages in this topic (25)
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4a. Re: Poop does not look good - yellow
Posted by: "cynthiashankman" ShankMa4@aol.com cynthiashankman
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 5:53 am ((PST))

On this subject of poop ...

I thought we were supposed to use the poop as a monitoring tool? Too
hard, or too much straining, aren't those indications of too much bone.

For my dog, this morning, he had a hard time getting anything out. He
crouched and strained, he wanted to go, but alas nothing came out.
(sorry for the graphics here). Wouldn't I use that as an indication to
not give a bony meal today?

Thanks!
Cindi

Messages in this topic (9)
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4b. Re: Poop does not look good - yellow
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 6:59 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cynthiashankman" <ShankMa4@...> wrote:
Wouldn't I use that as an indication to
> not give a bony meal today?
>

Hi Cindi,
Yep. Today would be a good day to feed a nice big hunk of meat. That
should help get things moving easily again. KathyM

Messages in this topic (9)
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4c. Re: Poop does not look good - yellow
Posted by: "barrettsmadison" barrettsark@verizon.net barrettsmadison
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 7:00 am ((PST))

I'm having loose stools so I guess I'm not feeding enough bone??
New to the group Jessica---
In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cynthiashankman" <ShankMa4@...> wrote:
>
> On this subject of poop ...
>
> I thought we were supposed to use the poop as a monitoring tool? Too
> hard, or too much straining, aren't those indications of too much bone.
>
> For my dog, this morning, he had a hard time getting anything out. He
> crouched and strained, he wanted to go, but alas nothing came out.
> (sorry for the graphics here). Wouldn't I use that as an indication to
> not give a bony meal today?
>
> Thanks!
> Cindi
>

Messages in this topic (9)
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4d. Re: Poop does not look good - yellow
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 7:16 am ((PST))

If your dog is brand new you could be feeding too much meat, but it is
more likely that you are either feeding too much food at once or too
much variety. You can add more bone at the beginning to reduce the
likelihood of loose stool, but once the dog has adjusted to the new
food it is really had to feed too much meat.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "barrettsmadison" <barrettsark@...>
wrote:
>
> I'm having loose stools so I guess I'm not feeding enough bone??

Messages in this topic (9)
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4e. Re: Poop does not look good - yellow
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 7:22 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "barrettsmadison"
<barrettsark@...> wrote:
>
> I'm having loose stools so I guess I'm not feeding enough bone??
> New to the group Jessica---

I assume you mean your dog is having loose stools. :) :) :)

Common causes of loose stools ...
1. Too little bone in the diet
2. Feeding too much volume in a meal early in the diet
3. Feeding too much organ or feeding organ too early in the diet
4. Feeding too much fat

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (9)
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5a. slower maturity
Posted by: "Felicia Kost" saphiradane@yahoo.com saphiradane
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 6:59 am ((PST))

I have been told by several large dog breeders that one benefit of raw is that, the dog will grow and mature slower in turn causing less joint problems. Is this true? I compare my dane to some of her litter mates not on raw and she is smaller. They tend to heavy and much less active. Mine is lean and has never ending puppy fits at 1 1/2 years. Just wondering if she will catch up to her littermates and if the raw food was causing her to grow slower. Being a horse person I am all about slow maturity, but does it benefit the large breed dogs as well?
Thanks Felicia

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Messages in this topic (2)
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5b. Re: slower maturity
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 7:20 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Felicia Kost <saphiradane@...>
wrote:
>
> I have been told by several large dog breeders that one benefit
> of raw is that, the dog will grow and mature slower in
> turn causing less joint problems. Is this true?

Generally speaking, yes. It is possible to overfeed a giant breed
puppy and cause joint problems on a raw diet but that is not common.

> Just wondering if she will catch up to her littermates and if
> the raw food was causing her to grow slower.

Genes will determine her eventual size more than anything else.

> Being a horse person I am all about slow maturity, but does
> it benefit the large breed dogs as well?

Yes

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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6a. Re: excessive shedding
Posted by: "maxieii" maxieii@yahoo.com maxieii
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 6:59 am ((PST))

Hi Giselle!
Thank you for you reply, over a period of a week I try to give her chicken (whole cornish
hens), lamb,(neck bones with meat) pork,(shoulder and neck bones with meat) and
beef,(neck bones) once a week some fish (salmon head which is full of meat and bones,
i've tried the whole fish like mackeral she doesnt eat it so I also give her fish oil) the lamb
and beef is usually neck bones with lots of meat on it, I also occassionally give her ground
beef instead of the beef neck bones (depends on what i find) i give her a small piece of
liver or kidney everyday with her meat and bones. (I bought the liver and the kidney cut it
up and froze it into portions) I also have lamb heart and sometimes i feed that as the
protein ( i was told it is not considered an offal more like protein?)

when i first started she was eating about 1,75lbs a day then I saw her getting to chunky so
now its around 1,25lb sometimesa bit more and sometimes closer to 1lb.

occassionally there is some leftover cooked meat and i have given that to her, is that a bad
thing? I would like to order green tripe from bravos as i have been told it is full of
nutrients and very good for them.

I am still a newbie and am scared at times that I am doing something wrong, I do thank
you for all your help..

Roberta
(Maxie II)

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Giselle <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Maxie, is it?
> You can ditch the multivit, but the Fish Oil caps are
> good. Just make sure that they don't have any plant oils or flavorings
> added.
>
> A lot of dogs do a shed after switching to raw. Some shed normally, some
> just shed a little more than normal, but others do a full body, all at once
> shed. Its usually totally normal, if its not accompanied by any other
> symptoms of concern. Most people report that the coat that comes in after a
> shed of any type, is a fuller, shinier, healthier coat than before.
>
> Brushing her out every day, and a bath once a week or so until the shed is
> over with a pure castile or oatmeal shampoo and conditioner will help.
>
> Here's some archived messages that others have posted about shedding;
> http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/msearch?
query=shedding&submit=Search&charset=UTF-8
>
> Just in case the raw diet you're feeding needs tweaking, what *exactly* are
> you feeding? Plenty of meat and protein variety? Edible bone? Liver and
> other organs? How much? How often?
>
> TC
> Giselle
> with Bea in New Jersey
>
> On Nov 7, 2007 10:11 PM, maxieii <maxieii@...> wrote:
>
> > MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.
> >
> > I have a Belgian Sheepdog and we've been raw since September and in the
> > past month
> > she has been shedding like crazy at first i thought it was normal because
> > of the change of
> > season. Had her groomed twice to get all the undercoat out, but now I
> > still have top coat
> > all over my house? I am concerned is this normal should I stop feeding
> > raw? I am also
> > giving her a multivitamin and fish oil capsules...
> >
> > thank you...
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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6b. excessive shedding
Posted by: "Cris Milam" cmilam@comcast.net cris_milam
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 6:59 am ((PST))

Maxie,
Apparently, some dogs just do this. Duncan shed a bit when he was first on raw. Then, a couple of months later my house was knee deep in dog hair all the time -- and he's a greyhound! I thought I would have a bald hound any day. It kept up for several weeks and then suddenly stopped. He never went bald, his hair never got thin or sparse, and it looks nice and shiny now. I didn't change anything about his diet during the time. Hopefully, this is the same thing that is happening with your dog. However, with a Belgian sheepdog, you may be up to your eyeballs in dog fur! Maybe you can spin yarn from it....

Cris M

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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6c. Re: excessive shedding
Posted by: "maxieii" maxieii@yahoo.com maxieii
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 6:59 am ((PST))

I forgot to mention that at first when i started feeding raw in Sept. her coat looked
wonderful and she wasnt shedding a lot...

thanks,
Roberta
(Maxie II)

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "maxieii" <maxieii@...> wrote:
>
> MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.
>
>
> i have a belgian sheepdog and we've been raw since September and a in the past month
> she has been shedding like crazy at first i thought it was normal because of the change
of
> season. Had her groomed twice to get all the undercoat out, but now i still have top coat
> all over my house? I am concerned is this normal should I stop feeding raw? I am also
> giving her a multivitamin and fish oil capsules...
>
> thank you...
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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7. HAPPY DOGS!!!
Posted by: "jose" jgacondor@yahoo.com jgacondor
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 6:59 am ((PST))

HI GUYZ!!!!THANKS FOR ALL THE RESPONSE...I LEARNED ALOT FROM THEM....
I APPRECIATED ALL UR OPINIONS AND IDEAS!!!
LALA, LARA, LANZ, LHOU, AND LONG ARE VERY HAPPY NOW ON THEIR RAW
DIETS!!!!I LOVE THEM, IT IS VERY HARD FOR ME TO START BEFORE BUT NOW I
AM CONFIDENT TO FEED MY PETS( SHIH TZU, PITBULL, DAUSHUND, MEXICAN
HAIRLESS/XOLOITZCUINTLI AND A MUTT, different breeds within a happy
family!!!!lolz) ON RAW!!!! thanks guyz!!!!my pets are extending their
paws and wag their tails for all your help!!!thanks again guyz!!!
:) :) ;)
joseph with a bunch of pets
Philippines

Messages in this topic (1)
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8a. Dogs eating fruit and vegetables?
Posted by: "Penny Sanford Fikes" penny@bluebonnetmagnolia.com pennysanford2003
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 7:00 am ((PST))

We've been a family farm since 1837....so many decades of farm knowledge
shared generation to generation.....

Through the years, our English Shepherds (I'm the fourth generation to
have English Shepherds) have loved water melon from the garden, peaches
and apples and pear from the orchard, squash...........corn and corn
cobs (Yes, I know all about being alert to corn allergies).

Figs are a big favorite during fig season. Some of them like banana (we
don't grow those on the farm. *grin*). When we bring in a bucket of
pears, the dogs are allowed to pick up a pear from the bucket and enjoy
chewing on it.....They ADORE chewing up the corn cobs after corn-on-the-cob!

These have been choices the dogs have made. Our family and farm history
is full of tales of "Shep always getting into the watermelon patch" or
"Katie snitching pears" or "Copie learning how to stand up on her hind
legs to eat figs off of the tree"....(These three are long gone and
greatly missed.)

Add to these family stories of well-fed dogs....the experiences we have
had of packs of wild dogs or coyote/wild dog mixed packs raiding a
garden or watermelon patch to eat what they wanted (Not to mention the
pack raids on chicken and calves and other baby meat on the farm).

One might dismiss these eating binges as purely pack hunger....except we
have seen our own pets snitching some of the same fruits and
vegetables....and for our pets, the behavior was not driven by raging
hunger.

(We've had that stereotypical farm mentality that a filled out/edging on
the fat side.... cow, horse, pig, dog, etc.... is a sign of good health
and good stewardship.....so these collective experiences of dogs eating
farm fruit/vegetables was not driven by hunger.}

*What are your thoughts on letting our pet dogs of this generation
choose to eat fruits and vegetables that are in season? Maybe there is
some ingredient their bodies crave (potassium or such?)
*
We no longer raise cows, pigs, chicken, etc. I wish we did, and I would
like to get back to that point for many healthy reasons...not the least
of which is having quality fresh meat for our eleven dogs!

Penny in Mississippi
Four English Shepherds
Seven Rescued Westies

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (13)
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8b. Re: Dogs eating fruit and vegetables?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 7:14 am ((PST))

> *What are your thoughts on letting our pet dogs of this generation
> choose to eat fruits and vegetables that are in season? Maybe
> there is some ingredient their bodies crave (potassium or such?)

Yes, there is something in there that the bodies crave: sugar. The
same reason I hunt down Jolly Ranchers when I'm at work.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (13)
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