[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12248

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Husband thinks dog is still hungry
From: blueberry5297

2a. Wreck bones (was Re: Why is my dog feasting on concrete?)
From: marclre

3a. Re: Anyone raise rabbits for feed?
From: jaygaughan
3b. Re: Anyone raise rabbits for feed?
From: jennifer_hell
3c. Re: Anyone raise rabbits for feed?
From: jaygaughan

4a. Re: Daily diet plan
From: Sandee Lee
4b. Re: Daily diet plan
From: Tracy Meal

5a. Rotten eggs
From: Taj
5b. Re: Rotten eggs
From: Sandee Lee
5c. Re: Rotten eggs
From: Sonja

6a. Re: 5 Dogs New to Raw Two Weeks
From: Darlene Hastings
6b. Re: 5 Dogs New to Raw Two Weeks
From: catfsh2329
6c. Re: 5 Dogs New to Raw Two Weeks
From: moemahood@aol.com
6d. Re: 5 Dogs New to Raw Two Weeks
From: girlndocs

7a. Re: challenges!
From: Andrea
7b. Re: challenges!
From: Yasuko herron

8. Self regulating dogs
From: Darlene Hastings

9.1. Re: still swallowing whole
From: katkellm

10a. Re: Why is my dog feasting on concrete?
From: Tina Berry

11a. Diarrhea and vomiting seem unusual: opinions, please
From: sarahfalkner
11b. Re: Diarrhea and vomiting seem unusual: opinions, please
From: Andrea

12a. Re: 80/10/10 vs 'whole prey' -- Was: Re: Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
From: Sandee Lee

13a. Re: New Puppy Vomiting
From: nkjvcjs

14a. are pig's feet okay?
From: greytbizz
14b. Re: are pig's feet okay?
From: Sandee Lee

Messages
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1a. Re: Husband thinks dog is still hungry
Posted by: "blueberry5297" blueberry5297@yahoo.com blueberry5297
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 9:50 am ((PST))

> Dh is worried that the dog seems "constantly hungry and wants more".
I'm saying we
> don't want an overweight dog, and feeding once a day should be okay,
and 2-3% of ideal
> body weight is what we are shooting for.

How active is your dog? I do believe small dogs need more than 2-3% of
their body weight, but if he is particularly active, he'll need even
more food. Personally, I would probably allow him to eat as much as he
wants and see if he is gaining weight. If he is, start to cut back. As
mentioned by another poster, dogs will tend to regulate their own diet.
He may eat three days worth of food and then not eat for two days. I
would offer as much food as he may eat every day, but take away what he
doesn't eat after about 30-60 minutes. That way of feeding doesn't work
for everyone, but it's a good way to see if your dog can tell YOU how
much he needs to eat.

> Dh is also worried about eventually fasting the dog. Do we feed him
a bigger meal the
> day before a fast? Do most people fast the dog once a week?

The only point of fasting, in my opinion, is only met when the dog has
eaten more than a day's worth of food beforehand. Gorge and fast is a
natural way of eating in the wild because a daily meal is not
guaranteed, and a dog's stomach is built to stretch and shrink in that
fashion. If you plan to feed this way [which doesn't have any extra
benefit, as far as i know], yes, feed extra before you fast. They are
not meant to go without food if they haven't had enough to last them
that amount of time.

- Jeni & Blue -

Messages in this topic (4)
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2a. Wreck bones (was Re: Why is my dog feasting on concrete?)
Posted by: "marclre" marclre@aol.com marclre
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 9:50 am ((PST))

"There are many items a dog can chew for fun that won't damage the teeth."

***Hi Ann- my own feeling is that recreational bones aren't (or shouldn't be) necessary at
all for healthy rawfed dogs. I'm also skeptical how terrific an activity *brainless* gnawing
on non-edible lumps of plastic/rubber/vinyl etc is - either from a health or behavioural
point of view. Sure ain't a natural behaviour so I see it much more as compulsive tick.
Our 2 year-old cattle dog mix was a one-dog house demo crew when he came to us but
after a week of good handling & feeding that stopped completely. He has also had
treatment from a classical homeopath and we saw further improvement from that. In any
case he seems perfectly satisfied with the action he gets ripping/gnawing meat off suitable
bones and doesn't appear to feel the need to chew on anything between feeds. Adult
wolves and other wild canines don't chew for recreation, which is a good guide to go by.
Marie-Claire***

Messages in this topic (12)
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3a. Re: Anyone raise rabbits for feed?
Posted by: "jaygaughan" jaygaughan@yahoo.com jaygaughan
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 9:50 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jennifer_hell" <jenniferhell@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jaygaughan" <jaygaughan@> wrote:
>
> > I thought it was going to be just me putting a few cages together
and
> > letting them get to work multiplying.
> >
> So you would try to keep and feed your dog species appropriate,
while
> keeping the rabbits totally inappropriate for their species? That's
> just me, but for me that's plain wrong.
> Sorry for the OT!!
>
>
> Jennifer
>

LOL

No Jennifer. I won't just try. I will keep and feed my dog species
appropriate.

And Yes. I am saying the rabbits would live there short lives in
rabbit pens waiting to be ripped to shreds by my dog.

Must be nice to have enough land, time, and or money to raise or buy
only free range animals to eat for you and your pets. I don't have
that option right now. Hence the reason I'm in my office.

Thanks for the informative answer to my question.

Jay

Messages in this topic (9)
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3b. Re: Anyone raise rabbits for feed?
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 10:43 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jaygaughan" <jaygaughan@...> wrote:
>
> And Yes. I am saying the rabbits would live there short lives in
> rabbit pens waiting to be ripped to shreds by my dog.

It's not the short life and being raised for dog food, it's the not
appropriate raising/ keeping. Stands in stark contrast to how you want
to keep your dogs. a little schizophrenic.

> Must be nice to have enough land, time, and or money to raise or buy
> only free range animals to eat for you and your pets. I don't have
> that option right now. Hence the reason I'm in my office.
>

I have not enough land, time or money to raise free range animals. I
buy only free range animals, and they're the same price as "regular".
I get the leftovers. A lot even for free.
I don't get the reason as to why you're stating that you're in your
office, but I guess it has something to do with insulting me.
This leads too far OT.

Jennifer

Messages in this topic (9)
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3c. Re: Anyone raise rabbits for feed?
Posted by: "jaygaughan" jaygaughan@yahoo.com jaygaughan
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 12:03 pm ((PST))

Sorry Jennifer. I don't want you to think I am trying to insult you
in any way.

Notice the "LOL" in the beginning of my post. It was an attempt at a
funny sarcastic reply to what I considered yours to be. Please excuse
my joking around. It was just in fun.

I stated I was in my office because I'm not independently wealthy as
of yet and still have to work for a living. Not trying to insult you
at all.

Guess I didn't put to much thought into rabbits that I would be using
to feed my dog. My dog will get the absolute best I can give him. He
is a member of our family and will be treated as such.

I've seen many people with rabbits at their homes they use for food
and have for pets. All living in small cages (4'x3'x3') 3 feet off
the ground. This is the only way I've ever seen them besides in the
woods and what I thought was the norm. If this is inappropriate for
raising rabbits in any form I'm guilty as charged.

Please excuse my rabbit raising ignorance.

Jay

Messages in this topic (9)
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4a. Re: Daily diet plan
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 10:39 am ((PST))

Yes....my adult couch potato Danes require less than the 2%.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "K. Gordon Crawford" <kgcrawford@gmail.com>

> Do a lot of the big dog owners find that the 2% - 3% guidline skews a
> little high for their needs? for her my 2% - 3% would be 2.4 - 3.6 lbs. 2
> lbs is more like 1.5%.

Messages in this topic (12)
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4b. Re: Daily diet plan
Posted by: "Tracy Meal" hiddenpoetinme1@yahoo.com hiddenpoetinme1
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 12:03 pm ((PST))

>>Do a lot of the big dog owners find that the 2% - 3% guidline skews a
little high for their needs? for her my 2% - 3% would be 2.4 - 3.6 lbs. 2
lbs is more like 1.5%.

My Rottweilers vary among the two of them.

My geriatric 11yr old girl is less active and only eats 1.5% to maintain her weight.

The puppy at 6 months eats 2.5% to maintain her weight because she moves non stop most days.

Hope this helps,

Tracy

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Messages in this topic (12)
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5a. Rotten eggs
Posted by: "Taj" bpskarma@yahoo.com bpskarma
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 10:43 am ((PST))

I have a neighbor that has been trying to mimic my raw feeding actions and all has been well until they tried to feed expired eggs to their pitty they asked me if it ok to do so and I told them I wasn't sure but would find out so I'm questioning that now. I know they can eat old meat but how about old eggs?

Taj and Karma
"Dogs are a special gift we must appreciate their unlimited love and attempt to return it"
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

Messages in this topic (3)
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5b. Re: Rotten eggs
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 10:53 am ((PST))

Expired eggs or rotten eggs? There is a big difference. I wouldn't pay
much attention to an expiration date.

My dogs have actually eaten some quite rotten eggs (found a nest of
unhatched chicken eggs...yuck) without any problems, but someone new to raw
might not want to try that! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Taj" <bpskarma@yahoo.com>

> I have a neighbor that has been trying to mimic my raw feeding actions and
all has been well until they tried to feed expired eggs to their pitty they
asked me if it ok to do so and I told them I wasn't sure but would find out
so I'm questioning that now. I know they can eat old meat but how about old
eggs?

Messages in this topic (3)
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5c. Re: Rotten eggs
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 12:03 pm ((PST))

I wouldn't feed ROTTEN eggs, but expired eggs are OK. I've eaten eggs weeks past their expiration and haven't keeled over yet. Of course, they were refrigerated.

You'll know a rotten egg if you crack one open.

Sonja

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Messages in this topic (3)
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6a. Re: 5 Dogs New to Raw Two Weeks
Posted by: "Darlene Hastings" dsdgrooming1001@qwest.net darlenesdoggroom
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 10:44 am ((PST))

My BC Jax would do this also if I bought into it. I have to just give him
his food and walk away. If I stand and watch, he'll just look at me blankly
and not eat. He can be very nervous about eating. If I obsess and plead
with him to eat, he won't. I started just giving him his food and then
watching from a discreet place. Now he eats like a pro. Hope that helps.
Darlene

-------Original Message-------

From: Sgagos@aol.com
Date: 11/06/07 09:50:23
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: 5 Dogs New to Raw Two Weeks

Thanks, guys. She is in pretty good health, good teeth and she's about
seven years old. She does like the ground meat but I'm afraid she'll get
used to
it. I'm going to try just putting the food down separately from everyone
else and picking it back up, then repeating. If after another week of this
she
doesn't bite, then I'll try some beef or pork. I definitely get that my
negative vibe is affecting her. It's a comedy routine, her and me:
Eat, Shelly, Eat!
Stares at me blankly.
Come on Shelly, Eat your food, eat your food.
I pick up the piece and give it to her in her mouth, she takes it, trying to

be polite and drops
it back down.
I must admit I repeat the above quite a few times, cutting the meat down
some more, taking the skin off, adding some parmesan, all with the same
result.
Then I walk away in huff. Fine, then!

Thanks again for your input.
Stephanie

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

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Messages in this topic (10)
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6b. Re: 5 Dogs New to Raw Two Weeks
Posted by: "catfsh2329" mhaveman@sbcglobal.net catfsh2329
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 11:01 am ((PST))

Hi Stephanie,

One of the suggestions I've seen here that worked for me is to try
different temperatures. If you normally take food right out of the
refrigerator or freezer, try letting the food get to room temp. or run
some warm water over it. This generally works better for us although
sometimes Mira just likes to let it lay in the sun for a while before
she gets to it. Some dogs may like cold or frozen food better.

As others have suggested, the chicken may not be a favorite. Beef and
eggs are scarfed up immediately here. Chicken is almost always a "this
isn't what I want" pout for a day or two before she gets hungry enough
to eat it. Other things fall somewhere in the middle.

Melissa

> The springer mix is not enjoying it at all. I'm having the most
> difficulty with her. I give her a leg, she takes it and drops it on
> the ground. I give her a piece of chicken, she walks away with it and
> spits it out. If it has bone in it she might eat it. She's hardly
> eating, well at least not the amount she should be eating. She likes
> gizzards, bone by itself and some pieces of chicken with bone, but
> lately not even that.

Messages in this topic (10)
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6c. Re: 5 Dogs New to Raw Two Weeks
Posted by: "moemahood@aol.com" moemahood@aol.com selfemployedhealth
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 12:14 pm ((PST))

In all the years of feeding dogs -- my own two and countless fosters I've never had to worry about tempurature.....The only problem is maybe liver -- but they usually get over that after it is offered a couple of times.?

But I am of the opinion that you eat what is being put in front of you or you go hungry.? The only dogs that do not
eat their food right away are the sick ones and the spoiled ones.....I really think that dogs do what you expect them to do.? A heathy dog will eat
what is being put in front of him, unless he is spoiled.? Then that is a different story......; )

Put the food down,?do not speak.? Leave it for 20 minutes come back, still no speaking, pick up all uneated portions and store for later, repeat until you win the stand off.? If you don't give in you won't have to go through this again and again.....The less fuss you make, the faster the dog will get it.

Maureen

One of the suggestions I've seen here that worked for me is to try
different temperatures. If you normally take food right out of the
refrigerator or freezer, try letting the food get to room temp. or run
some warm water over it. This generally works better for us although
sometimes Mira just likes to let it lay in the sun for a while before
she gets to it. Some dogs may like cold or frozen food better.

As others have suggested, the chicken may not be a favorite. Beef and
eggs are scarfed up immediately here. Chicken is almost always a "this
isn't what I want" pout for a day or two before she gets hungry enough
to eat it. Other things fall somewhere in the middle.

Melissa

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6d. Re: 5 Dogs New to Raw Two Weeks
Posted by: "girlndocs" girlndocs@hotmail.com girlndocs
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 12:14 pm ((PST))

Hi Stephanie,

> It's a comedy routine, her and me:
> Eat, Shelly, Eat!
> Stares at me blankly.
> Come on Shelly, Eat your food, eat your food.
> I pick up the piece and give it to her in her mouth, she takes it,
trying to
> be polite and drops
> it back down.
> I must admit I repeat the above quite a few times

Ahh, there's your problem, I think. I bet it'll make a difference if
you quit coaxing or urging and just put the food down and walk away.

If you really think she has noooooo idea what to do with a whole chunk
of food, then cut it up for a few meals, and maybe even sear it
briefly; but however you prepare it to accommodate her, don't fret
about whether she's eating. Just put it down, give her 15 minutes and
pick it back up.

Next meal SAME THING, until she eats. Once she finishes the seared
meat, give her chunked and unseared; once she finishes the chunked
meat, give her boneless whole; once she finishes the boneless whole
give her whole bone-in. You can of course skip some of these steps if
she seems ready to go without any further babying.

Kristin

Messages in this topic (10)
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7a. Re: challenges!
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 11:24 am ((PST))

Yeah, I've done some searching on this previously, so we're pretty
much on the same page. Except the fact that fish infected with this
parasite are found only in the pacific northwest, not everywhere.
Also the parasite only affects salmonids (salmon and trout). Though
the below link does mention Pacific giant salamanders as well
<shudder>.

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/57305.htm

I only make the distinction because the idea of every wild fish
causing salmon poisoning is really scary for newbies. We always tell
people to freeze wild game before feeding if they are concerned about
parasites, but it seems like salmon poisoning freaks people out more
than anything else.

<sigh> Wish I lived in a place where I could get *real* fresh sushi.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jaygaughan" <jaygaughan@...>
wrote:

> Do a little searching on this and you'll find it is not just that
> one area or fish that can and does have the potential to harbor
> this parasite.

Messages in this topic (14)
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7b. Re: challenges!
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 12:03 pm ((PST))

> Wish I lived in a place where I could get *real* fresh sushi.

Go visit Japan,and you get fresher nice sushi.I think fish there are tasting better raw than here. I don't like sushi here,but there in Japan.

yassy

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8. Self regulating dogs
Posted by: "Darlene Hastings" dsdgrooming1001@qwest.net darlenesdoggroom
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 12:03 pm ((PST))

Hi everyone,
My name is Darlene. I have been feeding raw for several months now. I
have four BCs. A while ago on this list, someone was trying to get their
dog to finally be satisfied and learn to self regulate. Have you had any
success with this? One of my BCs will eat 4 pounds at a time on days that I
let him have a gorge meal, but then he is hungry again the next day. Do
they eventually learn to self regulate, or do some dogs just never learn?
My other 3 all regulate themselves just fine, it's just the one.
Darlene

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9.1. Re: still swallowing whole
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 12:03 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "delcaste" <delcaste@...> wrote:
> Because she's been choking on her food three times in a week. My
> mistake but this sure is a hard way to learn.
>

Hi Silvina,
You have learned to feed bigger portions. You asked and learned and
fixed the problem. You have done a wonderful job for your gulper.
You had the gumption to stick with it, and i think you have done a
fantastic job with your dog. Now, do something nice for yourself.
Relax. Permit yourself to release the past and focus on all the
wonderful big meals ahead. KathyM

Messages in this topic (33)
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10a. Re: Why is my dog feasting on concrete?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 12:03 pm ((PST))

"Dirt, sticks, and rocks are common objects of obsession, and in fact I
still see this in my mostly cured old timer on occasion when he is
stressed."

My prev vaxxed gsd ate red clay when I lived in CA; I took her to the vet
one time and she was completely backed up - her intestines showed up like a
road map on the xray - she pooped it all out fine; but she ate red clay.
Not when stressed or anything, just in general cuz she apparently liked it.
Coincidentally, after not receiving vaxes from when she was around 3.....
later in life she wasn't eating anything weird anymore.

--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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11a. Diarrhea and vomiting seem unusual: opinions, please
Posted by: "sarahfalkner" Sarah.Falkner@gmail.com sarahfalkner
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 12:03 pm ((PST))

Hello! I also posted this on rawcat, sorry for duplicates.

Sorry to add to the plethora of postings about diarrhea and vomiting! Newbies, please
don't be alarmed! Let me just say upfront, this is unusual in our household, raw has been
great!!!

Background:
Henry and Ivan have eaten various raw foods for several years; this past July we switched
to Prey Model. Up to this point, touch wood, we've only had a few minor gastrointestinal
distresses, Ivan has vomited yellow bile a couple of times when really hungry, and when
Henry has stolen Ivan's portion of liver and had too much, he had mild diarrhea for maybe
an hour at most. Nothing too worrisome, nothing I couldn't easily find out about in the
archives if I had a question! Mostly everything has been just great! They enjoy a variety of
proteins, ranging from lean to rich, and I have learned about how much fat to trim from
fatty beef or pork cuts so their stools aren't really loose.

So, last night, dinner was lamb heart, now in season here in Ireland, which had a lot of fat
on it, some of which I trimmed to approximate the amount of fat on other fatty meats that
usually seems fine to them. This was the second time they'd had lamb heart, the first time
was last week, it was well enjoyed and no ill effects resulted. They've eaten beef heart lots
of times before, they've eaten pork and other rich foods with no problems before. Usually I
hang out and watch them eat to make sure everything's ok and because I love seeing them
enjoy their food, but this week my husband and I have been sick with bad colds and the
kitchen was a mess, and I was trying to make soup for us and clean up the kitchen, and so
last night I did not notice that Ivan didn't finish his supper (he's much more self-regulating
than Henry, who I think would eat until he burst) and I also did not notice until it was too
late that Henry decided to finish Ivan's meal and so have double portions of a rich meal.
And just to make the whole evening interesting, some hours later, my husband observed
that Henry had evidently stashed an old meaty bone somewhere at some point, and he was
gnawing on it for a midnight snack! So, we have two potential problems here:
overfeeding of a rich meat, and rancid meat...

This morning it is possible that Henry had diarrhea before breakfast, as when I was
waking up I heard two different trips to the litterbox pretty close together--but at the time
I assumed it was one cat after the other. At any rate, both cats were bugging me to wake
up and feed them breakfast, and both cats ate heartily (a lean stew beef cut, meaty meat).
But then Henry threw up about 15 minutes after he ate. He also either started or continued
having diarrhea. It was pretty frequent for about an hour or so, and he was uncomfortable
enough that he was also pacing and yowling. During the worst phase he wasn't always
making it to the litterbox, he would go like 3 or 4 times in 15 minutes. Since this
morning, each expulsion has only ever been about 1/2 teaspoon at most of a watery
green foul smelling liquid. As the urgency and agitation and frequency lessened, he was
able to rest more and stopped the pacing; then a few times it seemed like he didn't even
realize some diarrhea dribbled out of him, a couple of times I found a few drips when he
got up!

He also vomited clear bile probably an hour after the first vomiting of breakfast, and what
really surprised me, vomited one more time probably seven hours after eating breakfast,
not having had any food or water during that seven hours. The clear bile he vomited also
smelled quite strong. I would say these vomits were maybe a tablespoon or two??

The urgency and discomfort of the diarrhea has lessened quite a lot over the day, so that
now he's resting for periods of half an hour to an hour, maybe even longer at the moment,
touch wood--but even almost 10 hours since breakfast, he still gets up and goes to the
litterbox quite regularly.

I've lived with cats all my 39 years and never had one have diarrhea and intermittent
vomiting all day long, only a couple hours at most, so it's really worrying me.

His energy is still pretty OK all things considering--he's not shaking or hiding or prostrate
or anything that would make me call the vet asap--and he's gotten better over the course
of the day, but that he's still having problems at all even so many hours after not having
anything in his stomach makes me worry.

My guess is it's either bacterial/food poisoning or possibly an excess
of super-rich fatty food. Or even both, since he really did a number at dinner last night! It
doesn't seem to me like overfeeding alone would cause diarrhea lasting this long--can
anybody speak to that? I confess that recent discussion of pancreatitis makes me anxious,
I worry I am feeding him too much fat in general. Does anybody have anything to say
about my speculations? Does it sound diet related, or just a one-off bacterial thing? If the
latter, with humans, 24 hours is often the time it takes for food poisoning to run its
course--does anyone know if it is about the same for cats? I use activated charcoal
capsules for my own diarrhea problems with great success--does anyone use that for their
animals?

If he still has diarrhea tomorrow, and/or his energy or mood changes, I think I should call
a vet, but given the time difference between Ireland and a lot of the people on this list, I
thought I'd post and see if I could get any advice sooner.

Lastly, of course, even if he actually wanted food right now, I wouldn't give it to him, and
follow the usual advice and fast him the rest of the day. However, he has not taken any
water all day, and though I know he doesn't need any food at the moment, because I worry
he might be getting dehydrated, I boiled a drumstick (removed the skin and fat first) in
some water for about 10 minutes to flavor and warm the water to make it more appealing
and add some electrolytes, strained and cooled it, and offered him some of that, but he is
not interested. I imagine if I still had diarrhea, I wouldn't be interested either in anything
that remotely smelled like food, but I thought it was worth a try. I will offer it again before
we go to sleep, and of course, plain water is out all the time should he want it. Do people
think that's ok or am I being too cavalier about dehydration?

Hopefully, Henry will be a lot better tomorrow, and I will be able to offer him some plain
bland chicken and keep him on that for a few days at least. But if anyone thinks I should
take more or faster action, please let me know!

Thanks!!!

Sarah, hominid
Henry & Ivan, felidae
Quercus & Ilex, mustelidae

Messages in this topic (2)
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11b. Re: Diarrhea and vomiting seem unusual: opinions, please
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 12:21 pm ((PST))

Oh, poor Henry! I hope he starts feeling better soon. I think it
all sounds like too much new food at once. My cats are pretty
discrete about going poo so I'm not sure if/when they get runny
stools with new foods. However, the first time my newf mix pup ate
beef heart he went all out and ate the whole thing. He had
freakishly loose stools that smelled horrible for about a day and a
half and he wasn't much interested in food during that time.

I would think that since Henry didn't digest the dinner meal (it all
squirted out) and he vomited up his breakfast all of the bile vomits
are coming because his tummy is empty. For a dog I would say fast
him for a day, but since he's a cat I would try to get something in
his tummy. Maybe small bits of chicken breast throughout the day?
If you can get some slippery elm bark it may help settle down his
digestive system. Keep trying to get some fluids in him, too. The
juice from a tuna can added to more water always works for my cats.
Keep us updated.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "sarahfalkner" <Sarah.Falkner@...>
wrote:

> But then Henry threw up about 15 minutes after he ate. He also
> either started or continued having diarrhea. It was pretty frequent
> for about an hour or so, and he was uncomfortable enough that he
> was also pacing and yowling.

Messages in this topic (2)
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12a. Re: 80/10/10 vs 'whole prey' -- Was: Re: Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 12:03 pm ((PST))

Alex,

The ratios originate from the normal prey of the wolf which consists of
large ungulates. They hunt in packs, take down large critters and all feast
on the prey until it is gone. That's what we are striving to mimic...the
normal natural prey of a carnivore.

Very seldom would a wolf eat a small animal, and probably never poultry. A
cow, pig or goat would be much closer to their natural diet (and provide
nice variety)....lots and lots of red meat, small amounts of bone and
organs.

No need to get too hung up on the numbers, other than to make certain you
are feeding lots of red meat in addition to chicken.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "alexanderdewey" <alexanderdewey@yahoo.com>

I'd be interested in eventually getting Gigi WHOLE chicken (with
feathers, and head). I'm curious though, would a whole chicken then
consist of the 80/10/10 split?? What about a whole rabbit? Is
typical small whole prey for a wolf or wild dog 80/10/10? Or, in
other words, is the "whole prey" philosophy different than
80/10/10? If so, which in your opinion should I try best to follow?

And, in nature would they really get as much variety as my butcher
has to offer? I'm sure they'd eat a wide variety of smaller
animals, but I mainly mean COW, PIG, GOAT and other large animals
which I could only imagine a wild dog or wolf would rarely get to
eat (and certainly not "whole", right?).

Messages in this topic (21)
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13a. Re: New Puppy Vomiting
Posted by: "nkjvcjs" nefreed@gmail.com nkjvcjs
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 1:21 pm ((PST))

Update.

Tallulah Belle is home. She got IV fluids, and several dewormers, was
diagnosed with whip and hookworms. She seems much peppier today.

The vet thinks she is younger than we originally thought too. Only
9-12 weeks, so we have more puppyhood to go through than we thought.

We plan to keep her on boneless, skinless chicken breast for a while,
then introduce dark meat, in 2 or 3 days, still boneless and skinless,
and then add in skin, bone and organ over about another week. She is
still rather underweight, so we need to go slow, but make sure she is
getting enough to grow on.

Thanks again for all of the suggestions.

-Nicole, Eileen and Tallulah Belle

Messages in this topic (7)
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14a. are pig's feet okay?
Posted by: "greytbizz" greytbizz@yahoo.com greytbizz
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 1:42 pm ((PST))

We are trying very hard to get a good nutritional mix (variety) into
our two greyhounds without breaking the bank.

So far their main RMBs are turkey necks at each breakfast and every
other dinner. The alternate dinner meals are hamburger / ground pork /
veggies / beef heart / beef liver / tripe (what is green tripe?) /
jack mackerel all of which is sometimes supplemented with a raw egg
(including shell) / cottage cheese / yogurt / Symons Supermix -
powdered alfalfa, kelp, millet, buckwheat, rosehip / omega 3 fish oil
plus their various meds.

We just found an economical source for pork hocks and pig's feet but
some bone was vomited that night ... rather ... in the early morning
hours. Because we are still new to this we found it rather
disconcerting. The same thing happened with pork neck bones.

Just looking for some reassurance I guess.

M & M

Messages in this topic (2)
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14b. Re: are pig's feet okay?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 1:50 pm ((PST))

Sounds like you are feeding too much bone. Feed whole turkeys, whole
chickens, nice large pork roasts, more heart and tripe (stomach muscle) if
you can get it economically...and drop the veggies and supplements other
than the fish oil.

Pork hocks, pork feet, pork neck bones and turkey necks are all far to high
in bone content. Add more meat!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "greytbizz" <greytbizz@yahoo.com>
So far their main RMBs are turkey necks at each breakfast and every
other dinner. The alternate dinner meals are hamburger / ground pork /
veggies / beef heart / beef liver / tripe (what is green tripe?) /
jack mackerel all of which is sometimes supplemented with a raw egg
(including shell) / cottage cheese / yogurt / Symons Supermix -
powdered alfalfa, kelp, millet, buckwheat, rosehip / omega 3 fish oil
plus their various meds.

We just found an economical source for pork hocks and pig's feet but
some bone was vomited that night ... rather ... in the early morning
hours. Because we are still new to this we found it rather
disconcerting. The same thing happened with pork neck bones.

Messages in this topic (2)
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