Feed Pets Raw Food: [rawfeeding] Digest Number 12244

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Pancreatitis, diarrhea, antibiotic side effects
From: Patty Linden

2a. Re: Medicated or Non Medicated?
From: elkilpat
2b. Re: Medicated or Non Medicated?
From: carnesbill
2c. Re: Medicated or Non Medicated?
From: carnesbill
2d. Re: Medicated or Non Medicated?
From: costrowski75

3a. Re: Daily diet plan
From: katkellm
3b. Re: Daily diet plan
From: carnesbill

4.1. Re: still swallowing whole
From: katkellm

5a. Re: Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
From: alexanderdewey
5b. Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
From: alexanderdewey
5c. Re: Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
From: katkellm
5d. Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
From: katkellm
5e. Re: Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
From: Sandee Lee
5f. Re: Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
From: costrowski75
5g. Re: Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
From: Pamela Picard

6a. How much rabbit,how much venison?
From: gusmyhairyboy
6b. Re: How much rabbit,how much venison?
From: carnesbill

7a. Re: challenges!
From: Sandee Lee
7b. Re: challenges!
From: costrowski75

8a. Re: Venison... Head! Directions needed.
From: costrowski75
8b. Re: Venison... Head! Directions needed.
From: Gayle

9a. Re: Mixed protein sources
From: costrowski75

10a. Re: First chicken thigh...serious issue?
From: costrowski75
10b. Re: First chicken thigh...serious issue?
From: Giselle

11a. Re: Anyone raise rabbits for feed?
From: susrob061174

Messages
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1a. Re: Pancreatitis, diarrhea, antibiotic side effects
Posted by: "Patty Linden" pattykat3@yahoo.com pattykat3
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 5:10 pm ((PST))

Giselle-- I have some Sl. Elm Bark P. and plan on mixing some with a little yogurt for him tonight. He ate just a tiny bit of turkey breast yesterday, and hasn't eaten today at all--but seems to feel fine. I think that he is just still suffering from a digestive upset from the beef I gave him many days ago, plus not taking skin and fat off of the turkey before I gave it to him. I had known that dogs with a history of pancreatitis shouldn't have very much fat, but when I started him on the raw food diet, I guess I just assumed that he could eat whatever I heard others were feeding (I am feeling so stupid!). I will look for some raw pancreas--thanks again.
:-) Patty

Giselle <megan.giselle@gmail.com> wrote: Hi, Patty!
I find raw pancreas very occasionally in one of the 'regular'
supermarkets I shop in. Also, you can find it in Asian, Hispanic or other
ethnic markets. You might be able to get them online, but I never have, and
don't know which places carry it. Maybe some others can give up some names
of online shops that carry it.

You can buy Slippery Elm Bark Powder separately online. Its good for
soothing digestive irritations and inflammation.
http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/supplements.htm

TC
Giselle

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Messages in this topic (20)
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2a. Re: Medicated or Non Medicated?
Posted by: "elkilpat" elkilpat@yahoo.ca elkilpat
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 5:21 pm ((PST))

--- So all this leads me to believe that we don't really truly know
whether the chicks or other are medicated or not. What about beef? They
certainly live longer than 8 weeks. I'm wondering why some chicken is
sold as "medication free" or "hormone free" and is much more expensive,
and regular chicken doesn't say anything. I'm going to do more
research on this - perhaps there's a difference depending on where we
live as well? (Canada vs US)? I know for a fact that some turkey farms
do medicate and some do not (at least here in Canada).

And ... as I mentioned in my original post, the medication supposedly
settles in the bones of the chicken or other animal, and it is when we
feed our beloved dogs the "BONES" that they actually ingest this. As
humans we don't eat the bones (at least I certainly don't), therefore
it's not a big issue for us.

Ellen & Bailey

Messages in this topic (14)
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2b. Re: Medicated or Non Medicated?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 6:17 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "meg_helmes" <mhelmes@...> wrote:
>
> Here is the YouTube video showing it - fast forward to about 7:00
> minutes to see the inoculations.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tmEO9xRqvo
>
> ~Meg
>
This is an entirely different operation. I don't know where these
chicks in the movie were going but not to a factory farm that will
supply grocery stores. These people were dealing in small orders of
15 or 25 chicks at a time. My brother receives 800,000 chicks at a
time. They don't come in by mail but in tractor trailor trucks.

Using the method in the movie, if you vaccinated one a second every
second, 24 hours a day, it would take over 9 days just to vaccinate
the chicks destined just for my bother's farm. The hatcheries have
many other farms to supply other than my brother's. In the movie,
they said they would have to be vaccinated in the first day of life.

Plus if it cost one penny a chick to innoculate them it would add
$8,000 to the cost of just one batch of chicks. He gets 6 batches in
a year. I don't think you could innoculate each one for anywhere
close to a penny. Since they don't innoculate in high volume
operations, we won't know. :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (14)
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2c. Re: Medicated or Non Medicated?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 6:33 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "elkilpat" <elkilpat@...> wrote:
>
> What about beef?

I don't know beef. I know chickens. :) I know beef is wormed. I
don't know about anything else.

> I'm wondering why some chicken is
> sold as "medication free" or "hormone free" and is much
> more expensive,
> and regular chicken doesn't say anything.

In the US it's against the law to sell chicken advertised as hormone
free and I THINK steriod free. This advertisement would imply that
there is something different about this chicken than any other
chicken. (I have seen some advertised like that though.)

> I know for a fact that some turkey farms
> do medicate and some do not (at least here in Canada).

I don't know turkeys either.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (14)
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2d. Re: Medicated or Non Medicated?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 6:43 pm ((PST))

"carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
>> I would think any chemicals added to their food would be ADDED
> chemicals. How else would you add them?
*****
Beats me. But I shall find out. It's time for USDA Man.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (14)
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3a. Re: Daily diet plan
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 5:22 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "K. Gordon Crawford"
<kgcrawford@...> wrote:
>> Thoughts on the proposed diet? Too much or too little bone? Enough
variety?

Hi,
I agree with your assessment that poultry takes up a lot of space in
the diet. To me, the bone/meat ratio sounds a little too bone heavy,
but your dog's stool should tell you something about that. Do you
feed twice a day? I guess i'm asking because it would seem, imo,
easier to feed a whole pork roast one day and skip the chicken, and
so i was wondering if the chicken was the am meal and the pork the pm
meal. If that is the case, feeding once a day might make more sense.
Regardless, there are lots more parts to the prey animal than you are
including if you are sticking strictly to the parts and the types of
meat you mentioned. HTH, KathyM

Messages in this topic (6)
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3b. Re: Daily diet plan
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 6:33 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "K. Gordon Crawford"
<kgcrawford@...> wrote:
>
> Thoughts on the proposed diet? Too much or too little bone?
> Enough variety?

The diet is fine. Don't worry about it. The exact ratio of
meat/bone/organ isn't critical. You just need to be in the ballpark
and you are. Judge the volume to feed by the dog's build not buy
weights and measures. Numbers are numbers.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (6)
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4.1. Re: still swallowing whole
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 5:22 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "delcaste" <delcaste@...> wrote:
> Yesterday I gave her a
> goat leg and she ate alright but I'm terrified to see her keel over.

Hi Silvina,
Sorry if i missed something along the way, but why are you afraid she
will keel over? KathyM

Messages in this topic (28)
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5a. Re: Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
Posted by: "alexanderdewey" alexanderdewey@yahoo.com alexanderdewey
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 5:24 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cynthiashankman" <ShankMa4@...>
wrote:

>It is confusing when starting on raw because we seem to be focused
on
> BONES; raw meating bones; chewing bones; bones getting stuck;
> digesting bones; bones in poop; bones bones bones! It gets even
more confusing because they recommend that we start out with chicken
for 1 week....which has bones!!!
>BUT GUESS WHAT ... (and for some reason this isn't very clear,
> because you are the third person in a week who has done this
(myself
> included, I might add) ... guess what ... 80% of our dogs' meals
are
> WITHOUT BONE. That makes for a whole lot of boneless meals. The
> ratio is 80% meat (as in meaty meat, no bone) 10% edibile bone,
10%
> organs with 5% of that being liver. Now they (they = the
experts!!!
> and thank you all for being moderators!) will tell you that this
is
> should be fed over time. But when you are new, like us,
apparently
> it needs to be REALLY REALLY REALLY CLEAR ABOUT THE PERCENTAGES.
> Otherwise, you, me, and the two other people this week, aren't
> getting it. It also needs to be REALLY REALLY CLEAR, that after
the
> initial-chicken-introduction, meat without bone can be fed.
>
> For some reason the message that 80% of the meals do not contain
bone
> is getting missed by beginners.

Hi Cindy,

Actually, I don't 'think' I'm confused. lol. Trying to get the
exact percentages right has been the furthest thing from my mind.
I've just been focusing on the idea of feeding "whole prey" -
assuming that since I'm feeding her the entire bird (minus head and
feathers), the percentages will naturally fall into place. I don't
look at it like "80% of her meals should be solely (boneless)
meat". At least that's how I've interpreted the info here...

Update on the grass though: I just came home from taking Gigi out.
We found some lawn and I let her go to town on it. I guess we'll
wait to see what (if anything) comes up. Will keep the group posted.

Alex

Messages in this topic (13)
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5b. Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
Posted by: "alexanderdewey" alexanderdewey@yahoo.com alexanderdewey
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 5:47 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Margo Farnsworth"
<mfarnsworth@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Alex,
>
> Dempsey seems to have gotten over his fixation on the grass for
the time being - yay!
>
> I'm wondering if you could offer Gigi some wheatgrass (sold as pet
grass at
> Petco/Petsmart type stores)?
>

Hi Margo,

I'm glad yours is over it! The fact is, Gigi is known to eat
ANYTHING that will fit in her mouth. From the edible (lettuce,
black olives, frito's) to the not so edible (plastic, wood, even
pebbles - as in small rocks - not the cerial) lol. So I imagine
wheatgrass wouldn't be such a far strech. In fact, I bet she'd love
it. It just doesn't fit in very well with the whole prey model I'm
trying to feed. Obviously :)

Alex

Messages in this topic (13)
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5c. Re: Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 5:59 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "alexanderdewey"
<alexanderdewey@...> wrote:>
> Actually, I don't 'think' I'm confused. lol.

Hi Alex,
I love a positive thinker.<g> Actually, i agree with you. Saying
that 80% of the diet should be meat, is not the same as saying 80% of
the meals should be boneless. Feed through the animal and you can't
go wrong. Some critters might be bonier than others, but over time if
you feed a variety of parts from a variety of animals, i always did
like the Frankenprey concept-legs of a chicken, heart of a cow, breast
of a lamb...-it will all balance out over time. KathyM

Messages in this topic (13)
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5d. Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 6:17 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Margo Farnsworth"
<mfarnsworth@...> wrote:
> I make a "glop" for my dogs that they get every
> few days that contains liver, squash (they love it), carrots and
whatever
> other safe veggie matter I have around. I thought perhaps adding some
> wheatgrass might be satisfying for them?

Hi Margo,
I save the grass growing for my horses.:) Veggies are not a species
appropriate food, even if you glop them, and only take away a spot in
the diet that should be filed with a hunk of a prey animal. As a
treat veggies are great if your dogs like them, but since they can
cause allergies in some dogs, there probably isn't, jmo, such a thing as
safe veggies. KathyM

Messages in this topic (13)
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5e. Re: Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 6:36 pm ((PST))

Alex,

I think Cindi's concern (and rightly so) is that if you are feeding mainly
chicken and have not begun adding red meat and organs, you are missing out
on meat and variety. Whole prey would include feathers, head, innards,
etc....when feeding processed chickens, you are looking at around 32% bone.

This is why we continually recommend adding variety, meat and organs as soon
as possible. The majority of the diet should consist of meat, however it
gets fed...on bone, off bone, makes no difference...but you will not find
that in a chicken!

So Cindi's concern about a diet of mainly chicken quarters is warranted.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "alexanderdewey" <alexanderdewey@yahoo.com>

Messages in this topic (13)
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5f. Re: Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 7:14 pm ((PST))

"alexanderdewey" <alexanderdewey@...> wrote:
> So... Is there anything I should give her to substitute the grass
> she's trying to eat? (lettuce maybe?) And... Isn't a WEEK of
> trying (like crazy) to eat grass kind of a long time to try to expel
> something?? What could be bothering her for so long?
*****
It's okay for her to eat grass as long as the grass is safe to eat.
Can you buy a couple chunks of sod and build her her very own grazing
area? I don't think lettuce cuts it, actually. My border collie
occasionally wades into the Bermuda grass for a good graze but will
only tolerate so much left over salad. I suspect a good blade of grass
is better than a lettuce leaf.

Since eating grass can be an anxiety reponse as well as sign of
digestive discomfort--and can also be fun or feel good or is a antidote
for boredom--it's hard to know she does it. So IMO the best thing to
do would be to find her some safe grass.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (13)
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5g. Re: Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
Posted by: "Pamela Picard" pet.wellness@yahoo.com pet.wellness
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 7:58 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "alexanderdewey"
<alexanderdewey@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I actually logged on to post a question about this and I see someone
> has beaten me to the punch. Our situation is a little bit different
> though, so here goes:
>
> Gigi (21 months/48 lbs) has been TRYING to eat all the grass she
> comes accross for about a WEEK. The thing is, I wont let her eat
> any because we're not talking about a nice grassy meadow - We're
>
> I'm going out of town tomorrow and would hate to have to fast her
> right now. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Since she seems
> fine, "Just don't worry about it" would be a nice one to hear. lol.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Alex (raw feeding Gigi since Sept 30, 2007)
>
***

I give my dog a simethicone gel cap when he eats grass, if he's gassy
or his tummy gurgles. Chicken is a bony meat. You might also try
giving her a little more muscle meat. But I would not change her diet
until you return from your trip. You want to be around to monitor any
diet change.

Pamela Picard
http://www.pet-wellness-update.com
http://aimees-law.blogspot.com/
aimees_law-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

***Sign the petition***
Exempt Sick & Senior Pets from Rabies Shots
http://www.petitiononline.com/tdsh2007/petition.html

Messages in this topic (13)
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6a. How much rabbit,how much venison?
Posted by: "gusmyhairyboy" gusmyhairyboy@charter.net gusmyhairyboy
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 5:48 pm ((PST))

Hi,Suzie G. here

My 5.5 week old Golden puppy ate a whole 2-3# rabbit in two meals.(from
whiskers to toenails and all fur -not a drop of blood left )I was
amazed! Only one loose stool afterwards. I am able to get an unlimited
supply of whole rabbits. My question is how many rabbits would you feed
per week? I understand that variety is a good thing. Also, how much and
how often do people feed venison per week if there is a large supply
available? (it's wonderful living in northern Mn.!)

Maggie is loving her raw diet . (5.5 mos old and about 45 #)

Thanks!

Suzie G. and Beautiful,Dark Golden Maggie

Messages in this topic (2)
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6b. Re: How much rabbit,how much venison?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 6:33 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "gusmyhairyboy"
<gusmyhairyboy@...> wrote:
>
> My question is how many rabbits would you feed
> per week? I understand that variety is a good thing. Also, how
> much and
> how often do people feed venison per week if there is a large
supply
> available?

If I had a large supply at reasonable prices I would feed rabbit and
venison 5 or 6 days a week. They are both very nutritous. The
other day or two, I would feed bony chicken parts and maybe a little
organ meat.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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7a. Re: challenges!
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 6:28 pm ((PST))

If they've been frozen, it doesn't matter where they originate...commercial
fish has already been frozen and is safe to feed.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: <moemahood@aol.com>

> Andrea, you might be right, but we do just fine on whiting and catfish.? I
can get it almost whole so its better than an expensive salmon steak, and I
don't have to worry about where it came from.....because sometimes it isn't
labeled and no one knows....
>
> I do give fish tabs, I rotate from salmon to fish oil tabs to cod liver
oil tabs.? My two get fish once or twice a week -- they love it!

Messages in this topic (10)
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7b. Re: challenges!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 7:25 pm ((PST))

"jaygaughan" <jaygaughan@...> wrote:
>
> ANY Salmon that spawns in FRESH Water Rivers can hold parasites. This
> means all Salmon have that potential.
*****
It's even broader than that. ALL wild prey can harbor parasites. All
wild fish, all wild rabbits, all wild deer, all wild ducks, all of it,
all all all. The issue is which are specifically dangerous and which
are merely things that go bump in the night. Salmon poisoning is the
result of a specific parasite; other parasites in other animals may be
no more a bother than a light load of worms--or no bother at all.

It is a mistake to single out PWN salmon or salmon at all: every wild
caught critter should be frozen first IF the parasite load is
established, or not known or if the human would simply feel better.
Chris O

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8a. Re: Venison... Head! Directions needed.
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 6:56 pm ((PST))

"Gayle" <gayle@...> wrote:
> So first, do I need to worry about the fact there was poop on parts
of it? I did wash it off,
> and this is also one reason I am freezing the whole shebang for a
while.
>
> How long should I freeze it to get rid of any worms or whatever?
*****
No, you don't need to worry about deer poop. My dogs scavenge for
deer poop. Freezing the cleaned up pieces for a week oughta be just
fine. If it's not deer poop (I shudder to think) it would not likely
harm your dogs but it would be good for you to wash your hands well.

> Finally, how would you deal with the puppy and a deer head?
*****
By giving it to him and letting whatever happens happen. Do you have
an exercise pen to put him in? A garage? If he has to work at it on
leash, he'll cope. You may be bored after a while though.

However much progress he makes is however much he makes. He may
disappoint your expectations, or he may be wildly creative and
productive. Don't worry if he doesn't get all the head parts. He'll
have a blast and if nothing else the exercise is good for him.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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8b. Re: Venison... Head! Directions needed.
Posted by: "Gayle" gayle@gayleturner.net gayle28607
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 7:57 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> > Finally, how would you deal with the puppy and a deer head?
> *****
> By giving it to him and letting whatever happens happen. Do you have
> an exercise pen to put him in? A garage? If he has to work at it on
> leash, he'll cope. You may be bored after a while though.

Unfortunately, I don't have a pen, but that sounds like a great idea. Have you fed a deer head
before? If you have, did you just let the dog work on it over the course of a few days?

Maybe I should wait until really cold weather so I don't have to worry about refrigerating the
head between feedings!

Gayle and Chakotay

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9a. Re: Mixed protein sources
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 7:03 pm ((PST))

"ncrnrgrl" <jcraver1@...> wrote:
> I was wondering if you "old hands" feed the same protein source for a
> period of time and then change? Or if it's all mixed?
*****
Yes and yes.
Sometimes I feed through a case or delivery of so and so; sometimes I
feed Protein A one day and Protein B the next day; sometimes I offer up
a nice mixed grill (although not grilled) of several proteins. What
works for you and your dogs is what works.

I'd say--on this list--that Tina who feeds mostly venison would
represent one extreme; and Yassy who has introduced to Palette a huge
variety of proteins represents the other extreme: both are doing fine.

Don't worry.
Chris O

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10a. Re: First chicken thigh...serious issue?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 7:45 pm ((PST))

"carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
everything you say is correct except you still don't get my
> concept of both ends of the stomach being closed. If they are
open,
> what holds the gas in?
*****
I am not "not getting" your concept. The digestive system is not a
open ended tube. There's the pyloric valve between the stomach and
the duodenum and the valves at the upper and lower ends of the
esophagus. Certainly you have had "gas" before...certainly I have
and certainly our dogs have. How is this possible if the digestive
system is one open tube as you suggest? Whatever produces gas (and
contains it) in the stomach of an otherwise healthy dog is the same
process that produces and contains gas in a bloating dog.

The tube is useful not only to relieve gas build up but also to test
if indeed the stomach has twisted. If you can get it in there's no
torsion, if you can't the stmach has torsed and the path is closed.
Clearly we are referring to different sources, nothing I've read
indicates the tube can be passed through the twisted tissue.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (18)
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10b. Re: First chicken thigh...serious issue?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 8:15 pm ((PST))

Hi, Ya'll!
Interesting subject, bloat.

I did some Googling and came up with this site - its graphic, so if you're
easily squicked out, don't look!
http://www.thepetcenter.com/sur/bloat.html

This paragraph explains why bloat happens;
"The production of gas in the stomach sometimes overwhelms the dog's ability
to belch it away or pass it through the bowel as flatulence. There are
various theories about the gastric chemistry that occurs to produce this
sudden buildup of gas. Plus, many dogs that become uncomfortable as the gas
builds up will begin to swallow air, compounding their dangerous condition."

A link to illustrations of the dog's digestive system;
http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/ClientED/anatomy/dog_digest.asp

This is interesting too, I didn't know that torsion and volvulus are
entirely different terms;
"The physiology of bloat

Torsion or volvulus are terms to describe the twisting of the stomach after
gastric distention occurs. The different terms are used to define the
twisting whether it occurs on the longitudinal axis (torsion) or the
mesenteric axis (volvulus). Most people use the terms interchangeably, and
the type of twist has no bearing on the prognosis or treatment. When torsion
occurs, the esophagus is closed off, limiting the dog's ability to relieve
distention by vomiting or belching. Often the spleen becomes entrapped as
well, and its blood supply is cut off."
http://www.canismajor.com/dog/bloat.html

TC
Giselle

*****
> I am not "not getting" your concept. The digestive system is not a
> open ended tube. There's the pyloric valve between the stomach and
> the duodenum and the valves at the upper and lower ends of the
> esophagus. Certainly you have had "gas" before...certainly I have
> and certainly our dogs have. How is this possible if the digestive
> system is one open tube as you suggest? Whatever produces gas (and
> contains it) in the stomach of an otherwise healthy dog is the same
> process that produces and contains gas in a bloating dog.
>
> The tube is useful not only to relieve gas build up but also to test
> if indeed the stomach has twisted. If you can get it in there's no
> torsion, if you can't the stomach has torsed and the path is closed.
> Clearly we are referring to different sources, nothing I've read
> indicates the tube can be passed through the twisted tissue.
> Chris O
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (18)
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11a. Re: Anyone raise rabbits for feed?
Posted by: "susrob061174" susrob061174@yahoo.com susrob061174
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 7:56 pm ((PST))

> I'm wondering if it would be worth my while to put up a few rabbit
> cages up to raise rabbits to feed my Great Dane.
>
> Or should I just buy them.

Hey Jay,

I live in the South and I have not been lucky yet. I was happy to
receive 6 free rabbits (3 females and 3 males). I had been thinking of
raising rabbits for food for a while. When breeding, you have to have
a nesting box for the kits, you cant just hang the cages up. I fed two
(male and female) to my dogs (Older rabbits) and the dogs caught one
when the dogs figured out how to open the doors. I got them on Labor
Day and was hoping for some kits in the next 31 days since the male
was with the females, but wasnt for sure if they bred. The months of
Sept and first part of Oct was so hot. I had to wait at least 35 days,
just in case, no such luck. I finally got the mating pair to breed 3
weeks ago, I'm still waiting. I have the Angora rabbits which get
really hot in Summer unless you shave them. But it seems that I have
pet rabbits for now. I'm going to leave it to the experts on the
breeding part, until I get the hang of the rabbit's habits.

In order the breed rabbits, the female has to be aleast 5 to 6 months
and the males aleast 7 to 8 months. I have read and researched on
breeding rabbits, it harder than it seems. I would suggest to buy for
now.

Susanne, Courtney & the Dane Gang (Zoe, Wilson & Rescues)
www.streborsgreatdanes.com

Life is grand when you love a Dane!! Have you licked your Dane
today?:o)

Messages in this topic (4)
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Feed Pets Raw Food

Monday, November 5, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12244

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