[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12241

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Pork tails and amount of fish
From: blueberry5297
1b. Re: Pork tails and amount of fish
From: Andrea
1c. Re: Pork tails and amount of fish
From: blueberry5297

2a. Re: How much do I feed a 3.45 lbs baby dog
From: Andrea

3a. Re: Medicated or Non Medicated?
From: Andrea
3b. Re: Medicated or Non Medicated?
From: costrowski75

4a. Re: starving dog
From: Andrea

5.1. Re: Ok, no more talk about bloat, how about Mountain Oysters?
From: Andrea

6a. Forgot to add... Smelt?
From: blueberry5297
6b. Re: Forgot to add... Smelt?
From: costrowski75

7a. Grass eating, a lot!
From: Margo Farnsworth
7b. Re: Grass eating, a lot!
From: ginny wilken
7c. Re: Grass eating, a lot!
From: costrowski75

8a. Re: Venison?
From: Tina Berry
8b. Re: Venison?
From: jennifer_hell

9a. Re: Deworming
From: Tina Berry

10a. Re: Pregnancy question again
From: Tina Berry
10b. Re: Pregnancy question again
From: costrowski75

11a. Re: First chicken thigh...serious issue?
From: costrowski75
11b. Re: First chicken thigh...serious issue?
From: costrowski75
11c. Re: First chicken thigh...serious issue?
From: carnesbill
11d. Re: First chicken thigh...serious issue?
From: costrowski75

12a. ADMIN/Re: Deworming
From: costrowski75

13a. Re: Starting a puppy on RAW
From: Sonja

14. New Puppy Vomiting
From: nkjvcjs

Messages
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1a. Pork tails and amount of fish
Posted by: "blueberry5297" blueberry5297@yahoo.com blueberry5297
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 6:34 am ((PST))

What do you think of pork tails? I saw them at the store yesterday and
thought it might make a nice boney treat once in a while when my dog
hasn't had enough. Anything I should be aware of? Does anyone think
this bone is too hard?

I also decided to try fish for the first time and bought some perch on
manager's special [which as you all know means "about to go bad", lol].
My only question about this is how much to give him. I planned to give
it to him by itself to see how he likes it, but I've heard somewhere
that you shouldn't feed too much fish. Blue is about 40 pounds and I
bought 0.78 lbs of perch filet. What do you recommend for one serving?
I know this will vary from person to person, but I'd like to get an
idea by hearing what a few different owners have to say. The fish alone
doesn't seem like enough food for one meal so I'll probably give him
one of the pork tails right afterward and/or some chicken liver...
Thoughts?

Thanks a lot!

- Jeni & Blue -

Messages in this topic (3)
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1b. Re: Pork tails and amount of fish
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 6:42 am ((PST))

I have a hard time finding pork tails that haven't been cut up some.
Depending on the size of the tails you got, I would add it to a regular
meaty meal. The bone should be plenty soft.

For the fish, half regular meal and half fish would be ok for my dogs,
your dog might be different. If your dog has had any problems with new
proteins in the past I would feed less fish than half his meal. And
since the pork tails will be new to him as well, I wouldn't feed them
with the fish.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "blueberry5297" <blueberry5297@...>
wrote:
>
> What do you think of pork tails? I saw them at the store yesterday
> and thought it might make a nice boney treat once in a while when
> my dog hasn't had enough. Anything I should be aware of?

Messages in this topic (3)
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1c. Re: Pork tails and amount of fish
Posted by: "blueberry5297" blueberry5297@yahoo.com blueberry5297
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 7:14 am ((PST))

<i>If your dog has had any problems with new proteins in the past I
would feed less fish than half his meal. And since the pork tails will
be new to him as well, I wouldn't feed them with the fish.</i>

Thank you, Andrea. Blue has never had any problems with new proteins
[so far], so he should be okay as far as that goes. But I didn't think
about the fact that two new items at once might not be a good idea,
thank you for pointing that out.

- Jeni & Blue -

Messages in this topic (3)
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2a. Re: How much do I feed a 3.45 lbs baby dog
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 6:49 am ((PST))

For pups you'll want to feed several times a day (three or more). In
total you'll probably feed around half a pound a day to the pup. The
general guideline is to feed about 2-3% of the dogs ideal adult weight,
but toy breeds often eat more than that.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "solblr" <solblr@...> wrote:
>
> Hi there ,
>
> I have a 1.5 kg lhasa apso. How much should I feed him ? I'm just
> making the transition to a raw diet. Thanks so much.
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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3a. Re: Medicated or Non Medicated?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 6:55 am ((PST))

If I had unlimited funds I would make sure I bought the most naturally
raised food for my pets and myself, but alas, I don't have unlimited
funds. I do what I can, and I keep looking for better sources.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "elkilpat" <elkilpat@...> wrote:
>
> I'm wondering about other's thoughts on feeding non medicated
> chicken, pork, beef. I have been feeding raw for quite a few months
> now, and have seen great results. However, a friend who has been
> feeding raw for years is encouraging me to feed only non medicated
> meats and meaty bones, including chicken.

Messages in this topic (5)
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3b. Re: Medicated or Non Medicated?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 9:12 am ((PST))

"carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
> All chicken in non medicated.
*****
My understanding is that there are no ADDED hormones or antibiotics.
Which of course leaves room to add medications that are neither
hormones nor antibiotics. I believe there are certain medications
poultry producers can and do use as part of the feed.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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4a. Re: starving dog
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 7:01 am ((PST))

I'll agree with Bill here, since your girl has been having such
digestive distress I would try and feed just chicken with no organs for
a couple of weeks. Get the stools under control and then slowly add in
a fattier meat like pork. Don't try to get her back up to normal
weight too quickly, she'll do great with the highly bio available raw
food. Keep us updated, ok?

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "chemist308" <chemist308@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Everyone. I'm knew to raw feeding, but I realize raw feeding
> isn't a cure-all. I'm switching to it because it is a low residue,
> high protein food, and I think my dog will tolorate it better. So
> here's my issues. I got a rescue greyhound dog that's had a well
> established hookworm infection--yes it's being treated now with
> medication. She has diarrhea and has been wasting. She's now
> severly underweight and we're trying to save her.

Messages in this topic (4)
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5.1. Re: Ok, no more talk about bloat, how about Mountain Oysters?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 7:08 am ((PST))

Umm, actually the rocky mountain oysters, fries, testes, etc. are the
testicles of the bull/bufflalo/pig.

The bully stick and pizzle are from the penis of the animal.

Strangely, my bf is more creeped out by bully sticks than buffalo fries.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, shefy gupta <shefy7@...> wrote:
>
> i think testes is another word for penis. yeh they seem to love it. i
order the big bravo ones and snowy does his happy dance for a good 5
minutes everytime he gets a new one...

Messages in this topic (35)
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6a. Forgot to add... Smelt?
Posted by: "blueberry5297" blueberry5297@yahoo.com blueberry5297
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 7:14 am ((PST))

Forgive me, I forgot to ask this in my previous post.
I've read various sites about what fish are good or bad to feed, but I
haven't read anything about smelt. They seem like a nice and simple
fish to feed when my Blue has been lacking a little fishiness, but then
again I'm new to fish. Anything I should know?

Thanks again :)

- Jeni & Blue -

Messages in this topic (2)
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6b. Re: Forgot to add... Smelt?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 9:20 am ((PST))

"blueberry5297" <blueberry5297@...> wrote:>
> Forgive me, I forgot to ask this in my previous post.
*****
What's to forgive? Ask as many questions as you need to, it's okay.

I> haven't read anything about smelt. They seem like a nice and simple
> fish to feed when my Blue has been lacking a little fishiness,
*****
They are nice and simple and often cheap and some dogs really like
them. They are good for protein variety if you're looking to broaden
your menu but they are not notable sources of Omega 3 if you're hoping
to score in that area.

Don't buy a bushel until you know Blue is good with them.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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7a. Grass eating, a lot!
Posted by: "Margo Farnsworth" mfarnsworth@mfgraffix.com mfarnsworth06759
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 7:18 am ((PST))

Last night after dinner, one of my dogs started eating grass. I gave him a
couple of minutes and then tried to call him in. I couldn't get him to stop
and he wouldn't acknowledge me (very much not like him). He continued his
grazing for at least 20 minutes. Then, of course, came in and threw up. We
sent him back out in case he needed to purge anymore, and again grazed for
about 20 minutes, very intently. In the middle of the night he asked to go
out, so I thought he might have a vomit or potty emergency, but went back to
the intense grazing. I've had them nibble before, but this is extreme! Do
you guys think he might be having some sort of problem he is trying to work
out of his system? At what point do I become really worried?

Thanks,
Margo, Dempsey (the grazer) & Wasabi

Messages in this topic (3)
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7b. Re: Grass eating, a lot!
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 9:25 am ((PST))

On Nov 5, 2007, at 7:31 AM, Margo Farnsworth wrote:

> Last night after dinner, one of my dogs started eating grass. I
> gave him a
> couple of minutes and then tried to call him in. I couldn't get
> him to stop
> and he wouldn't acknowledge me (very much not like him). He
> continued his
> grazing for at least 20 minutes. Then, of course, came in and
> threw up. We
> sent him back out in case he needed to purge anymore, and again
> grazed for
> about 20 minutes, very intently. In the middle of the night he
> asked to go
> out, so I thought he might have a vomit or potty emergency, but
> went back to
> the intense grazing. I've had them nibble before, but this is
> extreme! Do
> you guys think he might be having some sort of problem he is trying
> to work
> out of his system? At what point do I become really worried?

Yes, and don't worry yet. He's trying to get something out of there
one way or another. If it goes on for another day or so, or if he
exhibits any signs of being bloaty or blocked, then get to a vet. I
think he'll get it figured out on his own. Don't feed him unless he
wants it, and in any case, something non-lumpy for now.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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7c. Re: Grass eating, a lot!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 9:29 am ((PST))

"Margo Farnsworth" <mfarnsworth@...> wrote:
I've had them nibble before, but this is extreme! Do
> you guys think he might be having some sort of problem he is trying
to work
> out of his system? At what point do I become really worried?
*****
How is he now?

Yes, I think he has/had some sort of problem he is/was trying to work
out but eating grass is a fine way to deal with digestive problems so
letting him have at it is a good idea. It would be my choice to start
worrying if/when grass eating was not resolving the problem, or when
neither subsequent vomiting nor defecating (or attempts to vomit
and/or defecate) has resolved his discomfort.

And of course, whenEVER the dog's discomfort is more than you can
bear, it's time to visit the vet.

Give us an update when you have one, okay?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. Re: Venison?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 8:41 am ((PST))

"I wish it wouldn't be over at the end of the year. Oh well. Next winter
will be venison time again!"

Which is why we now have 3 freezers (and may be getting a 4th) so we have
meat thru until the next hunting season. We have four gsds tho and go thru
6-8 lbs per meat per day total.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (12)
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8b. Re: Venison?
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 8:57 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Tina Berry" <k9baron@...> wrote:

> Which is why we now have 3 freezers (and may be getting a 4th) so we
have
> meat thru until the next hunting season.

Ugh, I'm jealous!! I'm glad we got a freezer at all- although it's
amazing how big it looks and how little fits in it. LOL!!

Jennifer with Mandy

Messages in this topic (12)
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9a. Re: Deworming
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 8:42 am ((PST))

"Do raw fed dogs need to be dewormed more than a dog on kibble? " No

"How often do you deworm your dogs?" Never. I used DE once on a 4 month
old; next time they got worms I did nothing and they went away on their
own. Depends on the dog. If their immune system can't rid the worms, you
can use DE below:

http://blackkatherbs.com/pets.htm

--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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10a. Re: Pregnancy question again
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 8:42 am ((PST))

They usually crave organs the last two weeks of pregnancy - I would try
mixing organs with whatever else you are feedind her and see if she'll eat
it. We only feed 100% venison, if that's what she likes, I'd let her just
eat that if you have it available. I've also fed mine 100% heart at times -
not a bad thing either - Chris - is their anything lacking in a heart/liver
diet?? would it hurt for a month to only feed her that if that's what
she'll eat - I'm thinking heart is very nutritious.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (10)
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10b. Re: Pregnancy question again
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 9:37 am ((PST))

"Tina Berry" <k9baron@...> wrote:
>
> They usually crave organs the last two weeks of pregnancy -
*****
I don't count a month into it as the last two weeeks of pregnancy
though.

is their anything lacking in a heart/liver
> diet??
*****
You could look it up on the USDA Nutrient Databank. Certainly bones
would be missing. And I am not keen on liver being a huge part of the
diet at any point. I also don't know that lamb has been eliminated as
a possibility; last I read, the bitch seemed to be fond of it.

Be my choice to keep offering variety until there was no no more
offer, rather than quit trying.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (10)
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11a. Re: First chicken thigh...serious issue?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 9:01 am ((PST))

"carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
> No, I'm not, sez me. Bloat is when both ends of the stomach close
and
> the stomach fills with gas.
*****
You would be wrong.
Bloat is when the stomach fills with gas. The stomach does not and
may not twist--torse. Torsion is when that happens. They are
different circumstances and while bloat can lead to torsion, bloat can
often be remedied before the issue becomes torsion.

The two usually occur simultaneously.
*****
I doubt the simultaneity but I would agree the transition can be
rapid. I think what happens is the human does not pay attention soon
enough.

It's
> possible to have bloat without torsion but not the other way around.
*****
May well be but the two are separate processes. Since they are, the
terms should not be used interchangably. Sort of like loose stools
versus diarrhea.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (15)
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11b. Re: First chicken thigh...serious issue?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 9:07 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "darkstardog" <darkstardog@...>
wrote:
>a piece of
> bone might have gotten lodged in the pyloric sphincter or be
blocking it.
> I have zero experience with this, and zero knowledge of whether this
> is likely or what would happen if that were the case, what the odds
> would be that it could resolve on its own or not. Something to
google,
> anyway.
*****
It seems to me when one makes such a suggestion without foreknowledge
or experience that one should first do the googling oneself.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (15)
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11c. Re: First chicken thigh...serious issue?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 9:47 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> "carnesbill" <carnesw@> wrote:
> > No, I'm not, sez me. Bloat is when both ends of the stomach close
> and
> > the stomach fills with gas.
> *****
> You would be wrong.
> Bloat is when the stomach fills with gas.

Chris,
You are saying exactly the same thing I am except you aren't saying
the stomach closes at both ends. But that has to be the case. If the
stomach didsn't close at the top when gas started building up, the gas
would simply come out the mouth. When everything is operating
correctly, this is called a burp. If it didn't close on the bottom
end, the gas would go out the rear end and we both know what thats
called. :)

This gas builds up a lot of pressure or the stomach woudln't distend.
Both ends of the stomach must be closed or this couldn't happen. The
stomach doesn't have to twist in order for the two openings to close.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (15)
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11d. Re: First chicken thigh...serious issue?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 10:07 am ((PST))

"carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
>> You are saying exactly the same thing I am except you aren't
saying
> the stomach closes at both ends. But that has to be the case.
*****
Nope, it doesn't have to be the case.
The gas CAN come out of the mouth, if you can get the dog to belch.
And that is exactly precisely what happened to my little Lab when
she bloated--twice--as a youngster. (Neither related to diet btw.)

First time her abdomen was a taut as a drum and she was anxious and
restless and so very uncomfortable, and she was that way as she was
admitted to the ER and she was that way as they prepared her for x-
rays and then she let out a thunderous belch and that was all it
took. Her x-rays were clear.

Second time it happened I knew what to look for and after I called
her regular vet to let him know we were coming in, I gave her a GasX
capsule and yes, while I was driving into town she banged out
ferocious belch and by the time we got to the vet's office she was
her usual self.

In both cases she was diagnosed with bloat. In neither case did her
stomach torse. Since I have no reason to believe my little girl
made medical history not once but twice by bloating without also
torsing, my guess is your willingness to siamese the two conditions
is premature. Bloat is step one. Torsion is step two.

I believe one can feed a tube down the throat of a bloating dog; if
the tube goes down far enough, it's not torsion because--obviously--
the stomach hasn't torsed.

I would not recommend, however, waiting around to see if torsion
follows.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (15)
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12a. ADMIN/Re: Deworming
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 9:03 am ((PST))

A reminder: deworming is not relevant to rawfeeding. Please take
deworming discussions to RawChat.
Chris O
Mod Team

Messages in this topic (8)
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13a. Re: Starting a puppy on RAW
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 9:47 am ((PST))

I brought home a labrador puppy and her first meal was a cornish game hen. She was pretty reluctant, so I worked it over until it looked a bit like roadkill. I didn't crush any bones, but I ribboned some of the meat so it was easier for her to peel off, and I disjointed the whole thing so it was a bit floppy. After a few days she finally understood the concept. I've been adding one protein at a time, and I let her stools let me know if I can continue adding variety or if I should back off a bit! We've had her for about three weeks now and she's OK with chicken, duck, beef, and turkey. Only one meal upset her stomach, and I think it might have been the salmon oil that I added in (a full dose). I've been adding a few drops in the morning and at night to ease her into it now!

Sonja

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Messages in this topic (3)
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14. New Puppy Vomiting
Posted by: "nkjvcjs" nefreed@gmail.com nkjvcjs
Date: Mon Nov 5, 2007 9:48 am ((PST))

On Saturday, my Mom finally picked up a puppy (~4-6 months?) that she
had seen running around outside for over a week. The temperature
dropped to 33 deg, so she decided it was time to take in the puppy.

The vet can't, or won't fit her in until tomorrow afternoon. She is
very, very skinny. Extremely dehydrated, and vomiting bright yellow
the entire time my mom has had her. 4-5 vomits/day.

She has gobbled up boneless, skinless chicken breast, but will not
drink, and will not lick ice cubes. When she vomits, even within an
hour or so of eating, there is no visible food in the vomit. Just
bright yellow, slimy liquid. She has had one BM since saturday, N
color, formed.

She also has goopy eyes and is lethargic. She tries to play, then
gets tired and falls asleep after 1-2 minutes, and will not rouse,
even with loud noises. Then she wakes up and is sleepy and languid
for a long time.

I have distemper alarm bells going off in my head with the goopy eyes
and bright yellow vomit. But there haven't been any seizures, so
maybe not.

Does anyone have any suggestion of what we can do to get water into
her, or to make her feel better until she can get to the vet?

Thanks,

Nicole, Eileen (my mom)
and Tallulah-Belle (the puppy)

Messages in this topic (1)
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