[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12259

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: 08/10/10
From: Tina Berry
1b. Re: 08/10/10
From: JustTom
1c. Re: 08/10/10
From: JustTom
1d. Re: 08/10/10
From: carnesbill

2a. Re: Please explain this..
From: helpshelteranimals
2b. Re: Please explain this..
From: Patty Linden
2c. Re: Please explain this..
From: Yasuko herron
2d. Re: Please explain this..
From: JustTom
2e. Re: Please explain this..
From: woofwoofgrrl
2f. Re: Please explain this..
From: totaly_his
2g. Re: Please explain this..
From: carnesbill

3a. Re: weird poop and rash.....
From: patti.h310
3b. Re: weird poop and rash.....
From: carnesbill

4.1. Re: Feeding Pork
From: Yasuko herron
4.2. Re: Feeding Pork
From: ychinook
4.3. Re: Feeding Pork
From: carnesbill

5a. Exciting Discovery Close to Home!
From: miensasis
5b. Re: Exciting Discovery Close to Home!
From: JustTom

6. Before I forget
From: everfade79

7a. Re: excessive shedding
From: Jacinta Loo

8. Diarrhea...Loose Stools
From: margo532001

9a. Re: Dogs eating fruit and vegetables?
From: sarahfalkner

10a. Re: E coli recall - should I keep or toss recalled beef ribs ?
From: woofwoofgrrl

11. Postrate problems
From: Tracey WAGC

12a. Re: Prices of turkey, chicken, freezer question
From: carnesbill

Messages
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1a. Re: 08/10/10
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 2:55 pm ((PST))

"Is the 10% every week, or every couple of weeks, or a month, or just so I
try to balance it out?"

It's over time; so it can be weekly, over two weeks a month - whatever works
best for you to get it in there.

"Would a whole chicken from time to time cover the organ needs, and if so,
how often?"

This is whole prey, but not enough to cover 10% organs over total diet.

"My intent is to eventually feed mainly whole rabbit, which I think is
pretty much the complete food, but until then, I'd like to make sure she
isn't lacking for anything."

Whole rabbit is awesome! I currently feed 100% venison and weekly give them
a lb of liver - oh, and they get raw egg daily with fishoil for the
shedding.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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1b. Re: 08/10/10
Posted by: "JustTom" general.woundwort@yahoo.com general.woundwort
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 3:19 pm ((PST))

--- Tina Berry <k9baron@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

> Whole rabbit is awesome! I currently feed 100%
> venison and weekly give them
> a lb of liver - oh, and they get raw egg daily with
> fishoil for the
> shedding.

I've been lurking for quite a while, and I thought
that I'd seen mention here and in other places that a
fringe benefit of raw was shedding was noticeably
reduced. Not your experience?

thanks,
tom

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1c. Re: 08/10/10
Posted by: "JustTom" general.woundwort@yahoo.com general.woundwort
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 3:46 pm ((PST))

--- costrowski75 <Chriso75@AOL.COM> wrote:

> JustTom <general.woundwort@...> wrote:>
> > Anyway, sorry for the ramble there,
> *****
> But what a fine and fancy ramble it was. Any time,
> Tom, any time.
>

Don't encourage me. I'm a professional rambler, born
in the fires of usenet.

> *****
> IMO, now is good.
> Small amounts and added to the meals you know are
> successful; no
> single-organ feasts quite yet. Besides, what
> happens when you
> overfeed is loose stools, not the end of the earth.
> If you find
> you've fed more than you meant to, back up and be
> more conservative
> the second time.
>

In addition to being a fine killer, she's also a very
reserved and modest lady. In the 6 years we've had
her, I've never seen her go to the bathroom, and I've
never found any "surprises" in the yard either. I
know poop's a big topic on here, but I'm going to have
to miss out.
I tend to just listen to her tummy to see what's up.
You can here pretty distinctly when things aren't
going well. I guess she thinks she's a bear... ; )

>
> > Would a whole chicken from time to time cover the
> organ needs, and
> if so, how often?
> *****
> Depends. A whole, unprocessed bird has lots more
> liver to offer than
> storebought chicken does, so feeding storebought
> chicken will not
> likely be enough,

<snip>

For the moment, her chicken is storebought. I'll
likely raise a couple of hundred broilers next spring,
so she'll have to wait for the good stuff.
I'll have to go shopping at a regular grocery and see
what I can find. I tend to do most of my shopping at
Sam's, and all of the beef in the freezer is my own.

> I'm a big fan of ruminants and
> ungulates myself; rabbits
> rarely are long term meals for wolves and certainly
> can't sustain
> entire packs. But if a lucky wolf comes across a
> slow bunny, the
> bunny will almost certainly be some sort of meal.

I just got back from feeding the ruminants and
ungulates, but all are still on hoof for the near
future, as are the 2 week old chicks that will turn
into next year's layers, and the rabbits. So, I have
to make do with storebought for a while.

I had the misfortune of losing one of my brood does
last night while she was giving birth to 11 kits, so
Bailey will be getting her first rabbit this weekend.
I've got a few questions about that but will start a
new thread.

thanks,
tom

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Messages in this topic (6)
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1d. Re: 08/10/10
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 6:03 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, JustTom <general.woundwort@...>
wrote:
>
Tom,
Since your girl catches a lot of her own prey, I suspect you don't
have to worry about organs at all. I have two cats that I would
extimate half their diet comes from outside. I have never fed either
of them any organs ever. I tried to in the beginning and they wanted
no part of them so I figure they are getting all they need outside.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (6)
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2a. Re: Please explain this..
Posted by: "helpshelteranimals" helpshelteranimals@yahoo.com helpshelteranimals
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 2:56 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "totaly_his" <totaly_his@...>
wrote:
>
> I am new to rawfeeding. This is week 4 for me.
********
Welcome to the wonderful world of raw feeding! You cannot do
anything better for your dog!

Could someone please explain to me how you
> can give a dog raw meat that smells bad and she eat it without any
ill effects?
Jackie
*********
I cannot explain to you HOW it works except for that their digestive
system is much different than ours.

My dog actually prefers his meat 'aged'. When I first introduced him
to chicken gizzards he wanted nothing to do with them for 2 days.
They got pushed to the back of the fridge and I forgot about them
till a week later. They were NASTY smelling and the juice around
them turned green. As soon as I opened the container to dump them
out Ruffian came running. I have them to him and he gobbled them
right up, no ill effects...not even soupy poos!

AG & Ruffian (mystery mutt)

Messages in this topic (9)
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2b. Re: Please explain this..
Posted by: "Patty Linden" pattykat3@yahoo.com pattykat3
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 2:59 pm ((PST))

Andrea--Great idea! After reading this, I quickly moved my dog's food from the ziplock bag it was in to a large plastic tub. Your idea about the anerobic bacteria makes sense.
:-) Patty

Andrea <poketmouse45@yahoo.com> wrote: >

Just a side note, I try to keep my dog food in a large plastic tub
with a lid on it. Keeping food in an airtight baggie encourages
anerobic bacteria to start growing which are pretty different than
what normally grows on, say, something buried in the yard. Keeping
food in an open air container keeps it from getting slimy and super
gross. Something to look into.

.

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2c. Re: Please explain this..
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 3:00 pm ((PST))

>how you can give a dog raw meat that smells bad and she eat it without any ill
effects?

Hi,Jackie. I am no expert but,I think it is maybe something to do with dog's shorter intestine or strong acid stomach.I do not know how many day old smelly meat dog can torelate max, but I hear dog can eat old meat without any ill effects.

> How does it not bother her ?

Circumstance is different but you know there is AGED beef steak (these are not in zip bag but hanged for days?months?),and people say it is tastier than regular steak.So,maybe aged meat is tastier for dog maybe??

> One other question: How long approximately (being on this new raw diet) will it take for my girl to stop having the "runs" every time I introduce a new meat protein or organ meat?

Depending on dogs ability of torelance I think. My dog did not have any run on Beef,Pork,Chicken,Turkey at all. She had prob with Lamb tongue and Duck.I feeding for about 5 months and those 2 protins needs to be served specific way.

For lamb tongue,on round one,she had to have 1oz plus any meat she can do good on and more than 1 oz caused loose stool.And for Duck,she had diarrhea on skin on so,combo meal with skin off was she could torelate most.

Now,second round,for lamb tongue,she can torelate 1.5oz but not more yet so,still need to be combo. And Duck,she did not need to be combo anymore but cannot have skin on yet.

So,as months of rawfeeding goes,I think torelence changes and can have better torelence I feel.

Some dogs may have needs adjustment each time when new protin is introduced and,if fed from small amount,the dog may do good and gradulally increase the newprotin and it may not triggerthe loose stool. This one,I think you need to explore what amount andhow served can be torelated better for your dog.

Or,80-10-10 ratio thing may not be for your dog and may need more bone than that.

Or simply you are feeding too much new food all at once.

Try introduce oneprotin at a time but stay on one protin until you see your dog does well on it.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (9)
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2d. Re: Please explain this..
Posted by: "JustTom" general.woundwort@yahoo.com general.woundwort
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 4:09 pm ((PST))

--- Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>
> Circumstance is different but you know there is
> AGED beef steak (these are not in zip bag but hanged
> for days?months?),and people say it is tastier than
> regular steak.So,maybe aged meat is tastier for dog
> maybe??

Beef is aged depending upon fat content and marbling
of the animal.

Dry aged is hung anywhere from 7 to 21 days.
You'll find these in fine restarants and home raised
or butchered beef.

Wet hanging (like the one Rocky beat up in the movie)
and is an accelerted shortcut. Those are most of your
supermarket steaks.

Meat spoiling in your fridge would be closer to the
wet method, but I'd think it would be more of the
stronger smell for a dog.

tom: master of meat trivia

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2e. Re: Please explain this..
Posted by: "woofwoofgrrl" cmc4lists1@gastrounit.com woofwoofgrrl
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 4:10 pm ((PST))

Thanks for the tip on the non-airtight container - does it actually stay
'fresher' longer, or does it just get slimy?

However, I have to admit I'm a bit confused - Doesn't a nice hole in the
backyard bushes effectively make an airtight 'container'?

Christine

Andrea > Just a side note, I try to keep my dog food in a large plastic tub
> with a lid on it. Keeping food in an airtight baggie encourages
> anerobic bacteria to start growing which are pretty different than
> what normally grows on, say, something buried in the yard. Keeping
> food in an open air container keeps it from getting slimy and super
> gross. Something to look into.

Messages in this topic (9)
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2f. Re: Please explain this..
Posted by: "totaly_his" totaly_his@yahoo.com totaly_his
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 5:03 pm ((PST))

I keep her food in the fridge in a ziplock bag.

Just a side note, I try to keep my dog food in a large plastic tub
with a lid on it. Keeping food in an airtight baggie encourages
anerobic bacteria to start growing which are pretty different than
what normally grows on, say, something buried in the yard. Keeping
food in an open air container keeps it from getting slimy and super
gross. Something to look into.

Andrea, thanks for the suggestion about putting the meat in a tub. Would a Tupperware
contain be what you are talking about? Thanks, Jackie

Messages in this topic (9)
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2g. Re: Please explain this..
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 6:03 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "totaly_his" <totaly_his@...>
wrote:
>
> How does it not bother her and how can she eat it and
> then NOT "get sick" with the food?

Hey Jackie,
All of your questions have been correctly answered by others but I
didn't see this addressed. Rotten meat doesn't bother a dog because
it won't harm them. Nature has endowed all species with the ability
to avoid things that will hurt them. Since rotten meat won't harm a
dog, it doesn't smell bad to them. Actually it smells better than
fresh meat. Rotten meat can kill a human so it smells bad to
humans. Another example would be poop. Eating poop can kill a
human but has no effect on a dog so it doesn't smell bad to a dog.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (9)
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3a. Re: weird poop and rash.....
Posted by: "patti.h310" patti.h310@yahoo.com patti.h310
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 2:59 pm ((PST))

--- Sorry....I should have included his stats!!! He is a very
energetic 3 yr old Bearded Collie thats about 50lbs.

Patti

Messages in this topic (4)
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3b. Re: weird poop and rash.....
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 5:03 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "patti.h310" <patti.h310@...> wrote:
>
> Does this sound like an alergy? I
> thought the rash would clear up once we were off dog food.

If he had the rash before going on raw and it has never gone away
since starting raw, I would think whatever he has is not food
related. Could be an allergy to something in his enviornment. Could
be an infection.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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4.1. Re: Feeding Pork
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 3:19 pm ((PST))

>I think I read a post stating that pork gives "cannon butt" & loose stools, why is that?

Hi,Cyn.My Corgi did pretty good on pork.No runny poo at all.It may have helped that I started from lean Pork chop to start with.She did ok with Pork tongue or heart too.

I think it all depends on indivisual dog and how people feed as well if dog gets cannon butt or not. And maybe how much fat the cut of meat has and if dog can torelate the fat amount;lean pork chop against little fattier porkbutt,too.

If you feed dog who has never had pork the huge amount of porkbutt or picnic as their first meal,I think it is like waiting for loose poo if the dog did not have good torelance on it.

>if loose stools are "normal" w/the feeding of pork, how or when do I know that it has gone over the "normal" range?

I think that couple of days of loose poo to adjust to new protin source is I think normal range if food amount was not too big for dog to be introduced.During the adjustment time,you try combo meal or skin off the meat etc and it may help.Mine did not good on lamb tongue andI had to find how much Lamb tongue she can torelate.On the first round,she had torelance of just 1 oz and more than that cause runny poo,and after 2nd round,she can torelate 1.5oz.It iswith combo meal andI serve lamb tongue with chicken or pork or wahtever she does good on and, I think eventually,she can torelant lamb tongue only meal I think.

So,if your dog did not do good no matter how you try with foodamount or fat cut off or skin off etc,you can introduced it later andthat time,your dog may have better torelance.

Now and then, my dog hasrunnier poo after heart meal but I know that heart gives softer poo,so it is appropriate poo and I do not worry.

I worry if my dog gives runny poo all the time no matter what I feed,or how i feed.

yassy

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4.2. Re: Feeding Pork
Posted by: "ychinook" chinook.nr@tds.net ychinook
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 4:10 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, cynthia iparraguirre <cyn7711@...>
wrote:
>...
> I think I read a post stating that pork gives "cannon butt" & loose
stools, why is that? ...

I wouldn't say such is the case, but I don't doubt it depends on the
dog's diet history (what they are used to), the amount of bone also
consumed, the source of the pork and so on.

My dogs had been eating a majority of fowl, with red meats and fish
when I could find them at reasonable prices (and sources). Then a
couple months ago a local organic farmer gave me a 600 lb bore that
was getting too much to handle. So now they have been eating a greater
majority of pork with fowl thrown in for bone content and they are
doing just fine. I even cut back on adding salmon oil for omega 3
because of the source of the pork. I do trim away most of the fat
which is a significant amount and pick up and discard the big bones
after a couple days. The big fellow isn't that enthused with the
pork, but he's just fussy. Both dogs are as healthy and active as ever.

Best to you and yours,
Lee C, Buddy Bear and Holly

Messages in this topic (38)
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4.3. Re: Feeding Pork
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 6:03 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> Free range hogs have red meat,
> just as free range poultry does.

Chris,
I THINK, but I'm not 100% sure, that even free ranging chickens would
have white meat wings and breast meat because they don't fly, therefor
never use those muscles. You MAY be right about wild turkey. I don't
know.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (38)
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5a. Exciting Discovery Close to Home!
Posted by: "miensasis" kpmnlm@patmedia.net miensasis
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 3:20 pm ((PST))

I am so very excited. Today I found an Amish Pennsylvania Dutch market
not far from my home and I stocked up on lots of items for my Riley and
Molly. Boy are they going to eat well! I bought 2 whole rabbits, lamb
shanks (and these AREN'T smelly..LOL), HUGE hunks of beef and pork,
pork tongue, lamb kidney, beef heart, duck, 2 turkey necks and monster-
sized turkey legs. I spoke to the Amish butcher and he told me he
feeds his dogs raw too. He sold me a big bag of pork and beef
trimmings that I can use to round out some meals or add to very boney
meals and it was very cheap. He gave me his phone number and told me
to call in the morning the next time I am going to come in and he will
put aside lots of trimmings and parts for me. I'm excited because this
is the best variety I've been able to find to date and I got some
really big pieces which have been hard to find in my more traditional
supermarket. I'm really proud of myself for buying the rabbit. It is
a real stretch for me and brings me a bit out of my comfort zone...but
it is what's best for my little carnivores. The rabbits are not
completely in tact...they have been skinned, their heads removed and
their stomach and intestines cleaned out. But from what I could see
the heart and kidneys were still attached inside the belly. It should
be interesting!

I was wondering if anyone knows what the farming/feeding practices for
livestock are of the Amish? I'd suspect they are more in line with
what the smaller, more sustainable farmer does vs. the commercial
factory farmer, but wasn't completely sure. Also, I saw an item on the
list of available "parts" that I didn't recognize. What exactly is
beef sweet breads???

Nancy
in NJ
with Riley - 2yo
and Molly - 1yo

Messages in this topic (2)
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5b. Re: Exciting Discovery Close to Home!
Posted by: "JustTom" general.woundwort@yahoo.com general.woundwort
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 3:46 pm ((PST))

--- miensasis <kpmnlm@patmedia.net> wrote:

> What exactly is
> beef sweet breads???
>

Sweetbread is the thymus glands. Two of them:
skinnier one in the throat and bigger rounder one near
the heart They tend to disappear as an animal ages, so
it means it was a younger animal.

They're known as the ultimate organ meat.

Sweetbreads tend to be coveted by chefs for human
consumption, so it's kind of surpising it was in
there, except that they are pretty perishable.

tom

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6. Before I forget
Posted by: "everfade79" everfade79@yahoo.com everfade79
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 3:21 pm ((PST))

I wanted to thank everyone for the helpful info that has been giving
to me. I've been feeding my min pin raw for 3 weeks now and I will
NEVER go back to kibble. First off her skin allergy is gone now and
she has a gorgeous coat and any hair loss she experienced has stopped
and grown back. Secondly she has so much energy now she runs me
ragged! Also when it comes to meal time she is excited to eat and
actually eats when she is supposed to! She loves the new diet and I
love having a happier healthier dog. I am totally a believer and
advocate raw for everyones dog.
Thanks again
Fredo

Messages in this topic (1)
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7a. Re: excessive shedding
Posted by: "Jacinta Loo" jacintaloo@gmail.com junglemonkey718
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 3:46 pm ((PST))

Hi Maxii,

Belgians shed like mad anyway, on raw or not. What I CAN tell you is
that now that I've been rawfeeding for 1.5 yrs, Summer's coat that
she grows in, grows in fuller and softer with a better coverage of
undercoat than before. She shed like a mutha too this past end of
summer. For about a mont and a half nonstop. I was sweeping up
Summer's mini-mes from under the couch, the bed, where have you, on a
daily basis.

It's extremely gratifying when people come up to pet her, and say, OH
she's SOOO soft!!!!! Softness isn't something you associated a
malinois coat with. :)

Jacinta

> i have a belgian sheepdog and we've been raw since September and a
> in the past month
> > > she has been shedding like crazy at first i thought it was
> normal because of the change
> > of
> > > season. Had her groomed twice to get all the undercoat out, but
> now i still have top coat
> > > all over my house?

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8. Diarrhea...Loose Stools
Posted by: "margo532001" semitruestory@gmail.com margo532001
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 3:46 pm ((PST))

My 9 # yorkie just had a loose stool, the first I have noticed today.
Yesterday she had tilipia. No other symptoms. Should I feed her normal
meal tonight? Tonight is chicken. I have some Slippery Elm Bark
capsules (370 mg).... should I give her this? If so, how much? She has
been on raw and done well for several months. This is unusual for her.
I dont think she has eaten anything outdoors. Any help is appreciated.
Marguerite

Messages in this topic (1)
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9a. Re: Dogs eating fruit and vegetables?
Posted by: "sarahfalkner" Sarah.Falkner@gmail.com sarahfalkner
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 3:46 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> "carnesbill" <carnesw@> wrote:
> > > Maybe there is
> > > some ingredient their bodies crave (potassium or such?)
> >
> > No, I don't think they have enough intellegence to know what
> > nutrients their body is deficient in. Humans usually don't even
> > know that.
> >
> *****
What humans in their incredibly narrow sensory
> band "know" is of little relevance to what dogs are receptive to
> and "know".
> My guess is animals are more attuned to their needs than humans are, at
> least modern humans.
> Chris O

Of course, fruit is to dogs might just be as candy is to humans; and of course as any
human knows who's ever just wanted the crunch of something that comes out of a foil
bag, or the comforting softness of mashed potatoes or mac and cheese, sometimes it's
even just all about the texture. But, there might be something else going on there...

Though observations of animals healing themselves with natural remedies have been
documented as long ago as ancient Rome and China, contemporary animal behaviorists
are really only now starting to pay serious attention to this area of their work. There's a
really great fairly recent book called "Wild Health: How Animals Keep Themselves Well and
What We Can Learn from Them," (2002 Houghton Mifflin) by Cindy Engel, an animal
behaviorist based in England. It documents and discusses various self-medicating
practices wild animals all over the world use for prevention, cure and even recreational
highs. The bibliography is pretty extensive for more technical, focused reading. There's
loads of incidents that have been noted wherein all sorts of animals go to great length to
deliberately procure things that are absolutely not part of their preferred daily diet--
plants, animals, insects, and various substances--usually to eat, also sometimes to apply
externally. In many cultures, people have learned to use the same things for their own
healing by watching wild animals.

So many instincts and abilities of their wild ancestors are intact in some of our modern
dogs and cats, so who knows? Not just the fruit, but perhaps with the concrete-eating
dog, too. soils, clays, charcoal after forest fire, and termite mounds have routinely been
sought out by herbivores, omnivores and carnivores such as big cats, wolves, wild dogs
and other creatures, particularly to address parasite conditions.

Wolves are discussed in the Engel book primarily for grass-eating in the interest of
expelling roundworms (both as emetic and purgative) and while they haven't been
"officially" observed eating dirt, it is noted that their feces, like other carnivores, often
contain dirt, clay, sand and rocks, evidently ingested for mineral supplementation and/or
to mediate poisoning.

What was particularly interesting to me was that in the wild, so many animals in fact carry
both parasites and viruses--yet their immune systems seem to be so resilient that they
have no symptoms, and are effectively in excellent health. A very different paradigm than
what modern veterinary science and its focus on standardized laboratory analysis
conceives of as health.

I do recommend that Engel book highly, very interesting stuff!

Sarah, hominid
Henry & Ivan, felidae
Quercus & Ilex, mustelidae

Messages in this topic (18)
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10a. Re: E coli recall - should I keep or toss recalled beef ribs ?
Posted by: "woofwoofgrrl" cmc4lists1@gastrounit.com woofwoofgrrl
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 4:10 pm ((PST))

I got a call from my grocery store the other day telling me that some
hamburger I bought was contaminated with E coli. Luckily, it's burger I
had bought to fill Kongs for the dogs - to keep them occupied during my
daughters B-day party! The dogs suffered NO ill effects from the
tainted burger filled kongs.

I'm sure they would tell you, though, that they were unfairly tormented
- tortured even - by being trapped in a bedroom while a dozen first
graders ran around with pizza, cheeseballs, cake, and ice-cream! We
humans can be such heathens to our pets!

Christine

costrowski75 wrote:
>
>
> "Lisa S." <acbrio@...> wrote:
> >
> > Some beef products from my raw buying group from a certain supplier
>
> > I have one of these products, some very meaty raw beef ribs. They
> > have been sitting in my freezer since the end of June (oops, I
> > ordered too many things), so that's about four months ago. Should I
> > be concerned about giving my dog these beef ribs ?
> *****
> I seriously doubt it. But if you can't get past the niggling fear,
> don't feed the ribs.
>
> Just out of curiosity, what other than the surface of ribs would be
> contaminated by e. coli? Seems like if the notion distresses you, you
> could just rinse them off before feeding. If one can "save" spinach by
> a good rinsing, I'd bet ribs are equally salvagable.
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (6)
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11. Postrate problems
Posted by: "Tracey WAGC" wagc@sasktel.net frustrated_tracey
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 5:03 pm ((PST))

Hi all,

I've attached a link to a short video of my raw fed Poodle pup and my sister in laws kibble fed 5 year old large sheltie.
A quick question my S.I.L (sis in law) took her sheltie to the vet, as he has been losing weight and drinking alot of water. The x-ray showed an enlarged and prolapsed postrate so she is having him neutered then 4 weeks after that he will get xrayed again because the vet said it could be cancer (but didnt want to put the cart before the horse). So I guess my question is, My poodle is not neutered and I dont plan on getting him neutered....So how do raw fed dogs compare with kibble fed dogs when it come to postrate problems? Anyone?

Also I have a wack of beef spleen, tongue, liver, that Ruger doesnt want to touch, how do I get him to eat it....... I slightly cook the liver or dehydrate it. he loves the dehydrated and tolerates the slightly cooked but doesnt want anything to do with the spleen or tougue.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=2670634080607042230&pr=goog-sl

Tracey, Mom to very old Toy Poodle Pumkin and young Standard Poodle Ruger

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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12a. Re: Prices of turkey, chicken, freezer question
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 6:03 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Kathy Tompson <imscottish@...>
wrote:
>
> Perhaps we should take a moment to discuss the difference
> between factory farming ranching and the old fashioned farmer,
> THEN we can discuss grass fed cattle, organic, etc.

Kathy,
I read 3 of the 4 web pages you listed. I didn't read one of them
because they wanted my email address and I didn't want to give it.
ALL of these pages have an agenda. ALL tell untruths, half truths,
exagurations meant to mislead. I read a lot of things in all three
that are just plain wrong. I saw NOTHING that contradicts what I
just said in my previous post in this thread. Actually they
verified what I said.

I have been on factory farms and I've been on family farms. I have
owned cattle and my brother owns a 100 cows and bulls now. He also
owns 16 factory chicken houses. I'm not just talking off the top of
my head.

If we did away with the factory farms, millions of people would
starve to death. Family farms just can't raise the necessary volume
of food to feed the world. They are not nearly as efficient as the
factory farms.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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