[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12258

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Turkey Time
From: Casey Post

2a. Re: Dogs eating fruit and vegetables?
From: costrowski75

3.1. Re: Feeding Pork
From: costrowski75
3.2. Re: Feeding Pork
From: costrowski75
3.3. Re: Feeding Pork
From: carnesbill
3.4. Re: Feeding Pork
From: MORGAN LEWIS
3.5. Re: Feeding Pork
From: costrowski75
3.6. Re: Feeding Pork
From: helpshelteranimals
3.7. Re: Feeding Pork
From: cynthia iparraguirre

4a. Re: slower maturity
From: costrowski75

5a. Re: E coli recall - should I keep or toss recalled beef ribs ?
From: costrowski75
5b. Re: E coli recall - should I keep or toss recalled beef ribs ?
From: MORGAN LEWIS

6.1. Re: prey model
From: Sandee Lee
6.2. Re: prey model
From: carnesbill

7a. Re: Poop does not look good - yellow
From: Sandee Lee

8a. Re: Turkey Time -natural turkey
From: mutts_enough
8b. Re: Turkey Time -natural turkey
From: brutus_buckley

9a. weird poop and rash.....
From: patti.h310
9b. Re: weird poop and rash.....
From: Doguefan@aol.com

10. Prices of turkey, chicken, freezer question
From: Kathy Tompson

11a. Re: excessive shedding
From: great_dane_devotee

12a. Please explain this..
From: totaly_his
12b. Re: Please explain this..
From: Andrea

13a. 08/10/10
From: JustTom
13b. Re: 08/10/10
From: costrowski75

Messages
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1a. Re: Turkey Time
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 9:29 am ((PST))

> For those who have animals that are sensitive to enhanced meats, what
> symptoms occur? Apparently 'enhanced' means saline solution, but are
> there other chemicals going into the solution? Is that what causes the
> reaction? I would love to buy some whole turkeys for my dogs but don't
> want to put them at risk if this enhanced meat is dangerous.

Renee,

It is a sodium solution that generally has some kind of flavoring and/or
preservative thing going on. It varies slightly by product and producer, so
you'll have to read the ingredients carefully to find out exactly what's
been added.

The increased sodium alone can be enough to result in loose stools in some
animals. I can tell you that enhanced meats result in a yeast flare up in
my Lab boy...why that is, I do not know, but it is enough for me to avoid
them altogether.

Casey

Messages in this topic (5)
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2a. Re: Dogs eating fruit and vegetables?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 9:35 am ((PST))

"carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
> > Maybe there is
> > some ingredient their bodies crave (potassium or such?)
>
> No, I don't think they have enough intellegence to know what
> nutrients their body is deficient in. Humans usually don't even
> know that.
>
*****
Oh Bill you are such a card.
Knowing is not necessarily about intelligence, and I suspect you "know"
that already. What humans in their incredibly narrow sensory
band "know" is of little relevance to what dogs are receptive to
and "know". In fact, what humans are potentially receptive to has
nothing to do with their "intelligence" either.

My guess is animals are more attuned to their needs than humans are, at
least modern humans.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (17)
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3.1. Re: Feeding Pork
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 9:39 am ((PST))

"steph.sorensen" <steph.sorensen@...> wrote:
>
> I know this sounds a little crazy, but once I fed each of my dogs an
> entire pork shoulder a piece! It lasted the whole week.
*****
Heck. This doesn't sound a little crazy, it sounds great! It sounds
like you have it figured out! It sounds like you trust your dogs and
your dogs merit your confidence. Way to go!
Chris O

Messages in this topic (35)
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3.2. Re: Feeding Pork
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 10:18 am ((PST))

MORGAN LEWIS <shadowland22000@...> wrote:
> hum, I thought PORK was considered the "other" white meat. Morgan
*****
Ah Morgan, the Pork Council loves you.

Pork is an ungulate. It is a "red" meat. What modern pork production
has done/can do is confine hogs so they don't use their muscles as much
and unused muscles are "while" meat. Free range hogs have red meat,
just as free range poultry does.

The Pork Council, in an attempt to catch up with chicken sales while
also changing how the consumer views pork, promotes the paler and
leaner body parts. Left to a hog's own devices, those parts would be
red also. As it is, the parts the Pork Council doesn't talk about are
still quite red.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (35)
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3.3. Re: Feeding Pork
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 10:34 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, MORGAN LEWIS <shadowland22000@...>
wrote:
>
> hum, I thought PORK was considered the "other" white meat.

Thats just a marketing plan by the pig farmers association. Pigs are
livestock. The meat of all livestock is considered red meat.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (35)
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3.4. Re: Feeding Pork
Posted by: "MORGAN LEWIS" shadowland22000@yahoo.com shadowland22000
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 11:12 am ((PST))

damn commercials, now i learned something. so I guess those Country hams, and sausages and bacon are not "so healthy" after all. Hum someone tell grand dad , that, he was 91 when he died. Of course he didn't know a damn thing about hormones, antibiotics, vitamin injections and such. God I miss the old farm and the great food. morgan

costrowski75 <Chriso75@AOL.COM> wrote: MORGAN LEWIS <shadowland22000@...> wrote:
> hum, I thought PORK was considered the "other" white meat. Morgan
*****
Ah Morgan, the Pork Council loves you.

Pork is an ungulate. It is a "red" meat. What modern pork production
has done/can do is confine hogs so they don't use their muscles as much
and unused muscles are "while" meat. Free range hogs have red meat,
just as free range poultry does.

The Pork Council, in an attempt to catch up with chicken sales while
also changing how the consumer views pork, promotes the paler and
leaner body parts. Left to a hog's own devices, those parts would be
red also. As it is, the parts the Pork Council doesn't talk about are
still quite red.

Chris O

Morgan and His Angels
Precious, OFA
Princess, CGC, TDI, GSDCA Health Award

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Messages in this topic (35)
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3.5. Re: Feeding Pork
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 12:15 pm ((PST))

MORGAN LEWIS <shadowland22000@...> wrote:
so I guess those Country hams, and sausages and bacon are not "so
healthy" after all.
*****
This may or may not be the case but you never heard it from me. All I
said was the pork is a red meat.

Whatever conclusions you want to draw regarding injections and such are
your own.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (35)
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3.6. Re: Feeding Pork
Posted by: "helpshelteranimals" helpshelteranimals@yahoo.com helpshelteranimals
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 1:37 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:
What modern pork production
> has done/can do is confine hogs so they don't use their muscles as
much
> and unused muscles are "white" meat.
**********

Hmm...

Free range hogs have red meat,
Left to a hog's own devices, those parts would be
> red also.
>
> Chris O
********

Come to think of it, the wild boar I have fed in the past are VERY
red meat! Never thought about this.

AG, Ruffian, Kali, Moe, Miss Kitty

Messages in this topic (35)
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3.7. Re: Feeding Pork
Posted by: "cynthia iparraguirre" cyn7711@yahoo.com cyn7711
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 2:25 pm ((PST))

So now that we have clarified that pork is NOT a white meat...

I think I read a post stating that pork gives "cannon butt" & loose stools, why is that? and if loose stools are "normal" w/the feeding of pork, how or when do I know that it has gone over the "normal" range? (I hope my question makes sense).

Cyn


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Messages in this topic (35)
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4a. Re: slower maturity
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 9:48 am ((PST))

MORGAN LEWIS <shadowland22000@...> wrote:
>
> Many of the kibble manufactures went to a high Protein formula
several years ago for the Large Breed. This formula apparently
promoted maturity, but also led to major bone, joint problems (Pano).
*****
Going to higher protein is the very least the industry could do for
our protein- and fat-dependent carnivores. High protein levels do
not cause joint and long bone problems. Perhaps excessive calcium
does (and yes, the dogfood industry still overdoes calcium, just less
than it used to) and certainly excess weight is a contributing
factor, and for sure there is a high genetic aspect to the problem.
But it ain't about protein levels.

Shoot. Except for the ultra high end kibbles like EVO, most kibbles
remain to this day woefully under-protein'd.

Which fortunately for our wonderful dogs makes no never mind.
Feeding a species appropriate diet means never having to worry about
such artifice.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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5a. Re: E coli recall - should I keep or toss recalled beef ribs ?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 10:23 am ((PST))

> I have been told that even if you have a little mold growing on the
> surface of meat You can use vinegar to wipe it off and it will be
> fine. This was from an old timer talking about hanging venison and
> butchering on an as needed basis. Who by the way is very old and has
> been doing this a long time, so it hasn't killed him yet:-)
>
> My 2 cents,
> Krystal
*****
This is true; vinegar is good for very much of what ails us. It is
because we have available chemical cleaners that we use them, they're
not necessarily more effective than vinegar. A vinegar rinse would
work just fine; but I've found that even plain old water is an
adequate "flush" for meat going to the dogs.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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5b. Re: E coli recall - should I keep or toss recalled beef ribs ?
Posted by: "MORGAN LEWIS" shadowland22000@yahoo.com shadowland22000
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 11:12 am ((PST))

My, my honey child, where are you from, can not have "Country Ham" without mold. used to gross my college roommates out. Course never told them I washed it befor cooking, Morgan
costrowski75 <Chriso75@AOL.COM> wrote:
> I have been told that even if you have a little mold growing on the
> surface of meat You can use vinegar to wipe it off and it will be
> fine. This was from an old timer talking about hanging venison and
> butchering on an as needed basis. Who by the way is very old and has
> been doing this a long time, so it hasn't killed him yet:-)
>
> My 2 cents,
> Krystal
*****
This is true; vinegar is good for very much of what ails us. It is
because we have available chemical cleaners that we use them, they're
not necessarily more effective than vinegar. A vinegar rinse would
work just fine; but I've found that even plain old water is an
adequate "flush" for meat going to the dogs.
Chris O

Morgan and His Angels
Precious, OFA
Princess, CGC, TDI, GSDCA Health Award

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Messages in this topic (5)
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6.1. Re: prey model
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 10:25 am ((PST))

Hi Deborah,

Domestication doesn't change anatomy or physiology....nor do our breeding
practices which have significantly changed the outside but not the inside!
:)

Dogs are carnivores and their dietary requirements have not changed. They
still don't have the ability to digest and properly utilize carbohydrates,
domestication or not!!

Read through the rawfeeding myths.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "deborah_flick" <drdflick@qwest.net>

Now another question. I understand the prey model of feeding is based on the
way wolves
feed in the wild and that our dogs regarless of size or breed are descended
from wolves.
However, according to some, those dogs that thousands of years ago became
"domesticated"
accomplished this by hanging around people and feeding from their
refuse--ancient
compost heaps I suppose--as well and eating prey. From this standpoint, dogs
are
scavangers, opportunistic eaters eating what they can find, ripe fruit at
the base of fruit trees,
as well as dead animals and other such. If so, then wouldn't dogs be suited
to a variety of raw
food including some vegetation and even grains? I'm curious to hear what
others think. I have
never heard this aspect of dogs evolution addressed in the context of raw
feeding.

Messages in this topic (40)
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6.2. Re: prey model
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 10:34 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "deborah_flick" <drdflick@...>
wrote:
>
> If so, then wouldn't dogs be suited to a variety of raw
> food including some vegetation and even grains?

They would be except for the fact that dogs don't flat molar teeth
necessary for chewing vegetation nor are their intestines long
enough for them to extract nutrients from vegetation. Their
pancreas doesn't excrete enough of the proper enzymes to digest
vegetation. You see, domestication is behaviorial. Physical
changes in the digestive system just haven't occured.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (40)
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7a. Re: Poop does not look good - yellow
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 10:29 am ((PST))

There are several reasons for loose stools and they are not necessarily a
bad thing. What goes in reflects what comes out. When feeding raw, stools
are never going to be the same each day. Bony meals produce firmer, lighter
colored stools. Meaty, fatty meals and organs produce looser darker colored
stools. It's all OK! :)

What exactly are you feeding, how long, etc??? Give us some details to work
with!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "barrettsmadison" <barrettsark@verizon.net>

I'm having loose stools so I guess I'm not feeding enough bone??
New to the group Jessica---

Messages in this topic (14)
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8a. Re: Turkey Time -natural turkey
Posted by: "mutts_enough" mutts_enough@yahoo.com mutts_enough
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 10:36 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "brutus_buckley"
<brutus_buckley@...> wrote:
>
> Sales on turkey are starting to pop up, but so far they are all
> enhanced. I have avoided feeding enhanced meat.

I've been scouring the frozen turkeys and so I've found Albertsons
have a natural variety in their Village Market birds. Currently they
have a sale on the enhanced ones - 39c lb if you buy $25 worth of
product - but they also have 59c lb for their natural ones, with $25
purchase. Both varieties are Village Market. The enhanced 39c per lb
are in the yellow wrapper and the natural, 59c per lb, are in the black
wrapper.

Hope this helps.

Barb

Messages in this topic (5)
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8b. Re: Turkey Time -natural turkey
Posted by: "brutus_buckley" brutus_buckley@yahoo.com brutus_buckley
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 1:37 pm ((PST))

Thanks Barb, it does help a lot.
-Renee W.

Messages in this topic (5)
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9a. weird poop and rash.....
Posted by: "patti.h310" patti.h310@yahoo.com patti.h310
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 12:21 pm ((PST))

Hi everyone....we've been feeding raw now for about 3 months. We have
meals of (mostly) chicken quarters, pork necks and ribs, beef, lamb,
and beef liver. Everything has been going great except he developed a
pimply rash on his groin and armpit area and his stools are 'normal and
firm' to start but then turn to a watery liquid. Before we started raw
we had a yeast problem in the same area and he never had solid stools.
One thing I have been doing is mixing the meats at meal time...like a
chicken leg with a pork neck bone. Does this sound like an alergy? I
thought the rash would clear up once we were off dog food.

Patti

Messages in this topic (2)
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9b. Re: weird poop and rash.....
Posted by: "Doguefan@aol.com" Doguefan@aol.com knoxkennels
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 1:34 pm ((PST))

MODERATOR'S NOTE: SIGN YOUR MESSAGES

Hi Pattie.? How old is your dog?? I have french mastiffs, and I have often seen this in young dogs, and then they seem to grow out of it.? In particular, my female who is now almost one, had terrible skin under her arms and her neck when I got her at four months old...it was raw and bumpy.? This was in the spring, when allergies were at their worst...but once I switched to raw it went away in about two months.? Now she has NO signs of it at all.? I am not sure if it was spring allergies, or just puppy "stuff";but it seems to get better.? Now, the loose stool could be a sign of something else completely.? I would not guess they are related unless he is in fact allergic to something you are giving.? I am sure you will hear more on this from some of the "experts".? :)
Chels

-----Original Message-----
From: patti.h310 <patti.h310@yahoo.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 11:50 am
Subject: [rawfeeding] weird poop and rash.....

Hi everyone....we've been feeding raw now for about 3 months. We have
meals of (mostly) chicken quarters, pork necks and ribs, beef, lamb,
and beef liver. Everything has been going great except he developed a
pimply rash on his groin and armpit area and his stools are 'normal and
firm' to start but then turn to a watery liquid. Before we started raw
we had a yeast problem in the same area and he never had solid stools.
One thing I have been doing is mixing the meats at meal time...like a
chicken leg with a pork neck bone. Does this sound like an alergy? I
thought the rash would clear up once we were off dog food.

Patti

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10. Prices of turkey, chicken, freezer question
Posted by: "Kathy Tompson" imscottish@sbcglobal.net imscottishtoo
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 12:21 pm ((PST))

Perhaps we should take a moment to discuss the difference between factory farming ranching and the old fashioned farmer, THEN we can discuss grass fed cattle, organic, etc.

http://www.mindfully.org/Farm/Factory-Farm-Peter-Rosset.htm

http://www.mercola.com/2002/apr/17/cattle1.htm

http://www.vsc.org/factory_farming.htm

http://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_7920.cfm

Kathy


Carnesbill wrote:

ALL cattle are free range and grass fed until the last few months of
his life. As far as I know there are no calves born and put in a
small pen and fed grain it's whole life. THey are all raised in
pastures, free ranging for all but the last few months.

IF the chickens in the factory farm chicken houses can see the sky,
they can be called "free range".

There are many cattle farms around me and my brother raises cattle.
All of these farmers ... every single one of them ... when they get
ready to kill a cow for their own consumption will "put it up" in a
pen and feed it grain for a few months before

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11a. Re: excessive shedding
Posted by: "great_dane_devotee" libpowers@mac.com great_dane_devotee
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 1:35 pm ((PST))

i have a belgian sheepdog and we've been raw since September and a in the past month
> > she has been shedding like crazy at first i thought it was normal because of the change
> of
> > season. Had her groomed twice to get all the undercoat out, but now i still have top coat
> > all over my house?

My flat coated retriever is doing the same thing. We've been on raw for about six-seven
weeks. I recently took her to her vet who supports raw and is treating her with Chinese herbs
for allergies. Since she's been on raw, the allergy issues have reduced themselves to only
ONE issue and he is happily expecting that she will actually be able to be a success story.

He says it is what happens to some dogs and it is temporary. I'm thinking she is just making
room for her beautiful new raw-fed coat. But it is a PAIN! I am vacuuming every day and
sometimes if the two dogs play after I've already vacuumed I have to do it again. The house
looks really bad with dog hair all over it. I can totally sympathize with you.

Libby

Messages in this topic (6)
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12a. Please explain this..
Posted by: "totaly_his" totaly_his@yahoo.com totaly_his
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 1:38 pm ((PST))

I am new to rawfeeding. This is week 4 for me. Could someone please explain to me how you
can give a dog raw meat that smells bad and she eat it without any ill effects? I keep her food
in the fridge in a ziplock bag. After about day 4-5 the meat is slimey and smells nasty. How
does it not bother her and how can she eat it and then NOT "get sick" with the food? I'm just
very curious. Is there a certain amount of time that I should NOT give her that food? Can a
dog actually get sick if the food is too old? One other question: How long approximately
(being on this new raw diet) will it take for my girl to stop having the "runs" every time I
introduce a new meat protein or organ meat? Is this just something that will eventually work
itself out after she's been on it for awhile? Will it be months or maybe a year before she's
completely straightened out to the point that no matter what meat or organ I feed her she
won't always have runny bowel movements? I try to stick with the 80-10-10 ratio and I know
that I try to balance all that but when I feed her chicken for a couple of days and then give
her beef or pork I can just plan on her having the runs for a day or two. Is this normal?
Maybe I am doing something wrong. Thanks for your input. Jackie

Messages in this topic (2)
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12b. Re: Please explain this..
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 2:16 pm ((PST))

> Could someone please explain to me how you can give a dog raw meat
> that smells bad and she eat it without any ill effects?

Dogs have stronger stomach acid than we do and they have very short
digestive tracks compared to us. The acid kills lots of bacteria,
and what doesn't get killed zips through the dog so quickly it
doesn't have time to set up a colony and make the dog sick.

> I keep her food in the fridge in a ziplock bag.

Just a side note, I try to keep my dog food in a large plastic tub
with a lid on it. Keeping food in an airtight baggie encourages
anerobic bacteria to start growing which are pretty different than
what normally grows on, say, something buried in the yard. Keeping
food in an open air container keeps it from getting slimy and super
gross. Something to look into.

> Is there a certain amount of time that I should NOT give her that
> food? Can a dog actually get sick if the food is too old?

Not so far as I can tell.

> One other question: How long approximately (being on this new raw
> diet) will it take for my girl to stop having the "runs" every
> time I introduce a new meat protein or organ meat?

Well, soft stools are to be expected any time you feed boneless meat
or organ meals. Any time you introduce a new protein you should do
so slowly, but eventually she should become adjusted to her food and
what comes out should reflect what went in.

> when I feed her chicken for a couple of days and then give her beef
> or pork I can just plan on her having the runs for a day or two.

Are you throwing in a pork or beef meal randomly? When I introduce
new foods to my dogs I mix about half new food with half accepted
food for a couple of days and then give several days in a row of just
the new protein. By the end of those meals if I have well formed
stools I consider that protein in the bag.

That said, any time I feed a beef heart meal or pork shoulder I
expect to see less formed stools than a rabbit with bone meal. Does
that make sense?

Andrea

Messages in this topic (2)
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13a. 08/10/10
Posted by: "JustTom" general.woundwort@yahoo.com general.woundwort
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 2:24 pm ((PST))

Hi,

Started feeding about 3 weeks ago with some baby back pork ribs that were too "fragrant" to grill, and after no problems with those for a couple of weeks, went shopping and bought enough chicken quarters (leg/thigh) for another few weeks. Broth injected, but all they had.

Dog is 7or 8 year old lab/chow mix weighing in at 55 pounds. The chicken parts each weigh around 1.16 pounds. My calculator says 2% of 55 is 1.1, so I've been giving her one a day.

No issues, and I didn't really have any worries, about either diet or even the broth until I can find alternative. Bailey's a killer who brings me "gifts" from time to time, including a chomped baby possum last week, and each winter my yard is usually strewn with deer bones she scrounges from the hunters in the surrounding woods. She was a "house dog" when I got her, meaning I bought my house and she was hanging around and I let her stay. Speculate that the previous residents simply abandoned her and she managed to survive for as many as 6 months on her own, so I'm not as concerned with the level of detail as most on here. Squirrels and groundhogs show themselves at their own peril.

Anyway, sorry for the ramble there, but my question is about this 80-10-10 rule of thumb. I fed the ribs because I had them, and I am feeding the chicken parts because I wanted to make sure she wasn't going to have any issues, but I'm wondering when I should start adding the organ meat, since she likely doesn't need the slow approach?

And once I get going on a regular routine, what's the "spread" on the organ meat to make sure she gets it effectively? Is the 10% every week, or every couple of weeks, or a month, or just so I try to balance it out?

Would a whole chicken from time to time cover the organ needs, and if so, how often?

My intent is to eventually feed mainly whole rabbit, which I think is pretty much the complete food, but until then, I'd like to make sure she isn't lacking for anything.

thanks,
tom

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13b. Re: 08/10/10
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Nov 8, 2007 2:53 pm ((PST))

JustTom <general.woundwort@...> wrote:>
> Anyway, sorry for the ramble there,
*****
But what a fine and fancy ramble it was. Any time, Tom, any time.

I'm wondering when I should start adding the organ meat, since she
likely doesn't need the slow approach?
*****
IMO, now is good.
Small amounts and added to the meals you know are successful; no
single-organ feasts quite yet. Besides, what happens when you
overfeed is loose stools, not the end of the earth. If you find
you've fed more than you meant to, back up and be more conservative
the second time.

> And once I get going on a regular routine, what's the "spread" on
the organ meat to make sure she gets it effectively?
*****
10% if you choose to go by the numbers, is 10%. Whether you figure
it by the meal or the day or by the week or any way, it's 10%.

If you feed a pound a day (let's say) 10% would be 1.6oz. By the
week that would be one pound x 7 days x 10%, or just over 11 ounces.
By the month that just under three pounds. Distribute it as you want.

I have no idea how much liver I feed: I forget to, then I add hunks
to several meals, then I let it ride again. I go for some time
without feeding kidney, but I have many pounds of beef spleen in the
freezer so I feed that at about the same rate as liver. Heart, since
it is a fed as muscle, I feed more frequently and in greater
amounts. Oh and yes, whole chickens include heart, liver, kidney and
wouldn't you know it--spleen. Gizzard is also not organ, it's muscle.

> Would a whole chicken from time to time cover the organ needs, and
if so, how often?
*****
Depends. A whole, unprocessed bird has lots more liver to offer than
storebought chicken does, so feeding storebought chicken will not
likely be enough, especially if fed from time to time. As much as I
am fairly remiss in maintaining liver/kidney in the menu, I do think
they should fed in amounts appropriate to prey animals.

> My intent is to eventually feed mainly whole rabbit, which I think
is pretty much the complete food,
*****
Well maybe. I'm a big fan of ruminants and ungulates myself; rabbits
rarely are long term meals for wolves and certainly can't sustain
entire packs. But if a lucky wolf comes across a slow bunny, the
bunny will almost certainly be some sort of meal.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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