[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12272

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: FW: New to the list- and question PLEASE
From: Casey Post
1b. FW: New to the list- and question PLEASE
From: Bumble1994@aol.com

2a. Re: FW: [rawcat] Re: bones
From: Casey Post

3a. Re: Lamb Head Question
From: Casey Post
3b. Re: Lamb Head Question
From: christyb14

4a. Re: Update on Frankie!
From: Laurie Swanson
4b. Re: Update on Frankie!
From: costrowski75

5. Update on Bella the Picky Pregger.
From: Renate

6a. Re: Whole raw feeders
From: Yasuko herron
6b. Re: Whole raw feeders
From: chandler_baby
6c. Re: Whole raw feeders
From: christyb14

7a. Re: Nutritional content of raw meat
From: Evie
7b. Re: Nutritional content of raw meat
From: connie
7c. Re: Nutritional content of raw meat
From: Sandee Lee
7d. Re: Nutritional content of raw meat
From: costrowski75

8a. Meat and bone grinder
From: starcos
8b. Re: Meat and bone grinder
From: Giselle
8c. Re: Meat and bone grinder
From: costrowski75

9a. Re: Dog breed abbreviations
From: costrowski75

10a. Complicated meals and furred animals
From: jenvandecar
10b. Re: Complicated meals and furred animals
From: christyb14
10c. Re: Complicated meals and furred animals
From: carnesbill

11a. ADMIN/Re: Dog breed abbreviations
From: costrowski75

12. Re: whole raw feeders
From: Michael Moore

13. Heartburn (?)
From: jennifer_hell

Messages
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1a. Re: FW: New to the list- and question PLEASE
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:13 pm ((PST))

> Hi- I am a Maine coon breeder who has been raw feeding..is that the polite
> way to say?.

Very correct!

>Now I see that it would be more beneficial
> and also help with the dental disease that I am seeing, if I just whack
> some
> chicken bones with meat still attached ie chicken necks.. thighs or turkey
> necks... back bones of raw turkey etc...!!

Well, I don't know many cats that would go for a turkey back, but I suppose
they may be out there! Yes, you're correct that whole foods are the KEY to
proper dental/oral health.

>You guys don't put anything else
> in your diets? No taurine Omega 3's etc?

Taurine is present in all raw meats to some extent...generally more taurine
in muscles that get more use, so chicken hearts (used all the time) have
much more taurine than chicken breasts (not a lot of flying going on for
chickens). As long as you provide a variety of meats, your taurine bases
will be covered just fine.

Omega 3's may be another matter. If you can provide pastured/wild meats,
they will be naturally high in omega 3's. If you can provide high omega 3
fish like wild salmon, herring, mackeral, and sardines, then you're
providing lots of dietary omega 3's. If you're feeding grocery store meats
exclusively, you may be wanting to look at supplementing with omega 3's from
a nice salmon or fish body oil source.

If you don't want to wade through all the dog-related posts, please feel
free to join the sister list rawcat at

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawcat/.

All cats all the time!

Casey

Messages in this topic (3)
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1b. FW: New to the list- and question PLEASE
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 5:00 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 11/12/2007 6:42:54 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com writes:

No taurine Omega 3's etc?

***
Hi, Alex,

No, no taurine or etc needs to be added, but my cats get a half pump of fish
oil on their meat for the Omega 3's, since I'm feeding regular grocery store
meat, which hasn't been grass fed so is lacking in what they need.

I do feed some fish (great source of easily consumed bone) but am afraid to
feed it more than once a week because of the pollutants, and I don't think
that's enough for the Omegas. You don't need to add taurine because all meat has
that in it, some more than others, and more in raw because cooking reduces
the taurine.

Here's a website where you can look up practically everything that's in
practically any sort of meat:

_http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/_

(http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/)

Lynda

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

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2a. Re: FW: [rawcat] Re: bones
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:21 pm ((PST))

> Ok so skin and all? On the chicken say?

Sure! If it's part of the animal, it's part of the diet.

>>Now no feathers?

If you can get them with feathers, that's great! Might be a bit messy to
feed and you'll have some feather clean up when they're done (larger
feathers often don't get eaten), but it's all good.

>>Or do you guys just
> get the whole bird and cur up chunks with the skina and all? Should I not
> be
> concerned that some of my little ones might not be able to chew up the
> tough
> skin?

They may surprise you! But if they have trouble in the early days, don't be
shy about helping them out - if you partially freeze the chicken, the skin
is much easier to score up with a knife. Or you can use scissors to cut it
smaller for them.

>And you give raw pork ribs? Man that would be the one thing that
> I have programmed to worry about????

What - pork? Why does pork worry you?

Casey

Messages in this topic (2)
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3a. Re: Lamb Head Question
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:26 pm ((PST))

> One piece that I have not gotten to yet is the head and I fear that
> it is unshorn - it is one thing to be pulling off the skin on a slab
> of meat quite another to pulling if off when the poor thing is
> staring back at me, I don't think I can do it to be honest.

Christy,

I've done the "hairy sheep heads" thing and yeah, all that wool did concern
me because the dogs who were destined to eat this wonderful find (my
neighbor's dogs - it was a Christmas surprise!) were not experienced raw
eaters.

So what I did is get a sharp pair of scissors and give the heads a haircut.
I swear, if you told me ten years ago that I'd be doing that with sheep
heads, I would have called you a liar...

Just drape a paper towel or something over the face part and trim away.
Sing a little haircutting song as you go and pretend that what you're doing
is a completely normal thing and it'll go fine...

Good luck.

Casey

Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: Lamb Head Question
Posted by: "christyb14" christyb@cox.net christyb14
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:55 pm ((PST))

MODERATOR'S NOTE: REMEMBER TO TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.

Hi Casey,

So a little should be fine...

I will feed organs the next meals too to help move things along just in case.

I can't imagine that I will be giving the poor thing a haircut but the poor thing was so
dang expensive I hate to waste it! Good advice about covering the eyes. I imagine that
my eyes will be blurry from the tears so that will make it even more difficult to see!!

Thanks,
Christy

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Casey Post" <mikken@...> wrote:
>
> > One piece that I have not gotten to yet is the head and I fear that it is unshorn - it is
one thing to be pulling off the skin on a slab of meat quite another to pulling if off when
the poor thing is staring back at me, I don't think I can do it to be honest. Christy,
>

> So what I did is get a sharp pair of scissors and give the heads a haircut. Just drape a
paper towel or something over the face part and trim away. Casey

Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Re: Update on Frankie!
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:34 pm ((PST))

So cute! It's fun to have these stories once in awhile! Oh, for the
puppy days... :-)

Thanks,

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "deerajska" <d.rajska@...> wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> My 7.5 week-old Cairn/Westie terrier pup, Frankie, has been home
since
> Friday, and since so many of you here on the list were so wonderfully
> supportive in helping me prepare for his arrival - I thought I'd post
a
> message to let you all know how he's doing...
>
> In a word: wonderfully!!!
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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4b. Re: Update on Frankie!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:41 pm ((PST))

cspisto@... wrote:
>> I have 2, 6-year-old Goldens now transitioning from conventional
commercial food to Bones and Raw Food.? Where did you find/purchase
digestive enzymes and what do I look for when buying?
*****
Why are you transitioning your goldens to raw? Are they ill? Is
there a physical reason why you cannot toss the kibble and start
feeding real food? If there are issues, perhaps we can help you with
them. The longer you lollygag, the worse it is for your lovely
goldens.

You do not have to use digestive enzymes and I venture to guess that
Frankie doesn't need them either. In any case, digestive enzymes are
best used when there's a clear need for them: moving a dog to raw by
itself is not reason enough.

Chris O
(Please remember to trim your posts! There is no need to send back
the entire original message.)

Messages in this topic (4)
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5. Update on Bella the Picky Pregger.
Posted by: "Renate" renate.tideswell@gmail.com tideswell_renate
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:34 pm ((PST))

Just wanted to let you all know that even though Bella wouldn't eat
anything but kidney and heart, she delivered a nice litter. 4 babies
over 170g and a tiny runt that died in spite of all my efforts that
had a birth weight of just under 90g. The other 4 are growing like
crazy and for a first time shih tzu mum, she is doing just wonderful.
So all my concerns were needless. She knew what she wanted. the
babies are gaining upwards of 15g a day, which is great. And she is
super-excited about the whole thing.

--
Renate
'The more I learn about men, the more I love my Shih Tzu'

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6a. Re: Whole raw feeders
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:34 pm ((PST))

> My question, Why does my boy always start at the head and eat that first?

Maybe personal preference??

My dog tend to start meal from organs though..

yassy

---------------------------------
Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (20)
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6b. Re: Whole raw feeders
Posted by: "chandler_baby" chandler_baby@yahoo.com chandler_baby
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:17 pm ((PST))

> Why does my boy always start at the head and eat that first?
>
>
Caren, I don't know but my Mini Doxie starts head first as well, same
with my Golden. however, my Eng Setter starts with the gut. I guess it
is what they like.

Roxane

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6c. Re: Whole raw feeders
Posted by: "christyb14" christyb@cox.net christyb14
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:53 pm ((PST))

Hi Caren,

Maybe they don't want to be stared at while they are eating?!

The only thing I can feed whole is rabbit as well. Sometimes Lola starts at the bum and
other times she eats the head first - she has never opened it up at the belly, when she
does go for the intestines first it is through the bum.

The only consistent thing with regard to eating whole rabbit with her is she "skins" it - she
will eat everything but the fur (usually with three paws still attached) and it is turned
inside out.

It's very odd as it is perfectly done - you could stuff it, of course you would have a stuffed
headless rabbit sans one paw but still it's quite professional.

She always finishes the "skinned" part on the last day - it takes her from 2-3 days to eat
rabbit depending on their size. When I feed rabbit I fear a neighbor showing up and oh
how quickly the rumors would fly!!

Thanks,
Christy

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Caren OConnor <cavkist@...> wrote:

> When I feed whole prey, exclusively rabbit to date, my dog always goes for the head
first and consumes the prey in that direction, head, then body. Everything I ever read
about animals taking down prey said that the animal goes for the gut and intestines first.
My question, Why does my boy always start at the head and eat that first? Caren O'Connor

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7a. Re: Nutritional content of raw meat
Posted by: "Evie" archie.willow@yahoo.co.uk archie.willow
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:35 pm ((PST))

Many thanks for the help guys. :o)
I've bookmarked those sites for future reference.

Evie

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7b. Re: Nutritional content of raw meat
Posted by: "connie" justbullies@hotmail.com bullienut
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:35 pm ((PST))

> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "spricketysprock"
> <jess.hamway@> wrote:
> >
> > Dehydrated meat is used in
> > kibble, which is actually extremely high in protein because all the
> > water is taken out. This is termed meat meal ...

Hey Jess,
Have you checked out this website?? It explains it the best as to what
is really in dry ki**le from beginning to end.
http://www.api4animals.org/facts.php?p=359&more=1

~connie~
and a bunch of bullies
www.justbullies.com

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7c. Re: Nutritional content of raw meat
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:55 pm ((PST))

There are so many misconceptions about feeding a raw diet, as you have found
out! :) For some reason it is thought of as an all meat diet and 100%
protein diet....and people have a fear of protein because they have been
told it causes fast growth (and thus bone growth issues in puppies) and is
harmful to the kidneys. Of course none of that is true, but you won't hear
that very many places!! LOL

Anyway, a raw diet is not just meat, but includes skin, bone, joints,
tendons, ligaments, connective tissue, cartilage, etc....

so it is not only protein, but also fat, fiber, moisture and all of the
necessary vitamins and minerals in bioavailable form (unlike the synthetic
nutrients that have to be added to cooked diets).

I'm not sure why anyone chooses to feed cooked over raw but would imagine
fear of bacteria and bones are right up there! Oh, it's that fear thing
again,huh?? :))

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Evie" <archie.willow@yahoo.co.uk>

I'm on a general dog website and want evidence to
show that meat is not 100% protein as a few of the members there are
insisting it is. (Doing my best to spread the word!) They are mostly
homecooked diet feeders aware of the evils of kibble.

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7d. Re: Nutritional content of raw meat
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:35 pm ((PST))

"carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
> Meat meal used in kibble is not dehydrated meat. Meat meal is what
> is left of the carcass after human useable meat has been removed.
> It is made up mostly of bone, heads, feet, etc. It is the refuse
> from the human food processing plants.
*****
That stuff is the by-products. Meat meal has its own definition.
Chicken meal is the parts of chicken that are not heads, feet and
intestines: primarly the same chicken parts we can eat. I assume beef
meal has the same meaning.

If anyone is keen to "understand" dogfood terminology, the AAFCO
guidelines are more than adequate for the job. There are very few
terms that are not defined down to the last word. We do not need to
worry about the definitions on this list and it would be inappropriate
to continue in this vein.
Chris O
Moderation Team

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8a. Meat and bone grinder
Posted by: "starcos" sistergoldenhair3034@msn.com starcos
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 6:49 pm ((PST))

HI! Has anyone recently purchased a meat grinder? I am considering
buying one but have not come across one whose description indicates
that it also grinds bones. I have a chihuahua and find that the bones
and meat need to be grounded. Please let me know if anyone has one
that does both meat and bone and if you have any suggestions where I
may buy one. By the way, I found one online that is 600 watt and
thought that it may be powerful enough to grind bone as well. Any
suggestions would be appreciated.

Estella

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8b. Re: Meat and bone grinder
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:49 pm ((PST))

Hi, Estella!
None of the grinders that are sold to consumers are rated or
sold for grinding bone, tmk.
I have a really heavy duty one - used it once, LOL.

What you want are soft, easily edible bones, and just a small amount of
them.

The amount recommended in a species appropriate raw whole prey model diet is
only about 10% of the ENTIRE diet. In other words, if a dog were to consume
10 lbs of raw in a week, only 1 lb would need to be edible bone.

So, say your dog weighs 5 lbs. At 3% of his ideal adult body weight, he
would need 2.4 ounces of raw a DAY.
10% of edible bone for a day would be only 0.24 TENTHS of an ounce a day.
Thats not much, and even if you doubled or tripled that figure, it could be
met by eating gristle/cartilage and the very soft ends of some bones.

Another amount recommended would be 10% organs - that's 3-5% liver and 5-7%
'other' - spleen, kidney, sweetbreads, etc.

The last amount recommended would be 80% MEAT - that' muscle, fat, skin,
connective tissue, such as tendons, feathers, fur, etc. and any organ fed as
meatymeat, such as heart, tongue, gizzards, tripe, lungs, etc.

You could feed Game Hens, which are just chickens, slaughtered at a younger
age - the bones are very soft. You could also feed rabbits, mice, hamsters,
quail, smelts, sardines, etc. All would be completely edible, fur, bones,
skin, scales and all, and your dog would get the ALL the benefits from prey
model raw.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On Nov 12, 2007 9:44 PM, starcos <sistergoldenhair3034@msn.com> wrote:

> HI! Has anyone recently purchased a meat grinder? I am considering
> buying one but have not come across one whose description indicates
> that it also grinds bones. I have a chihuahua and find that the bones
> and meat need to be ground. Please let me know if anyone has one
> that does both meat and bone and if you have any suggestions where I
> may buy one. By the way, I found one online that is 600 watt and
> thought that it may be powerful enough to grind bone as well. Any
> suggestions would be appreciated.
>
> Estella
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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8c. Re: Meat and bone grinder
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:50 pm ((PST))

"starcos" <sistergoldenhair3034@...> wrote:
>
> HI! Has anyone recently purchased a meat grinder? I am considering
> buying one but have not come across one whose description indicates
> that it also grinds bones. I have a chihuahua and find that the
bones
> and meat need to be grounded.
*****
Why does your Chi need his food ground up? What are you feeding him?
What are you trying to feed them? There is no reason to grind food
for a healthy Chi and in the case of an unhealthy Chi, there are
usually whole, unground meats and bones that are successful.

There are a number of people on this list who feed whole raw meat and
bones to their Chihuahuas; perhaps they can help you.
Chris O

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9a. Re: Dog breed abbreviations
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 6:59 pm ((PST))

"Marcella Burgess" <proudfootkennels@...> wrote:
>
> f.. ES English Setter
Also English Shepherd
And ESS would be English Springer Spaniel
Chris O

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10a. Complicated meals and furred animals
Posted by: "jenvandecar" jenvandecar@hotmail.com jenvandecar
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:19 pm ((PST))

Hi. I am new to the group. Only been feeding raw for about 4
months. I just have a few questions. I was wondering what people
could reccommend for a complicated or time consuming to eat meal? I
am looking for something that my ravenous eaters can work on for a
good long time to exercise their brains and bodies. Thus far the
hardest meal for them to eat that has been given is beef ribs. It
took my golden maybe about 25 min to eat this and my English cocker
about 45. But everything else that has been fed has been gone in
about 5-10 minutes so it was an improvement. Any other suggestions
for good meaty meals that take a while to eat and don't damage
teeth? Also looking for things that are more easily readily
available because I don't know any hunters
and have had difficulty scoring anything from butchers without paying
an arm and a leg.

My other question is about feeding a whole furred rabbit. I have the
opportunity to by furred rabbits at about half the cost of the
skinned ones. Just wondering what the advantages are to feeding the
furry variety. Are the dogs supposed to skin it themselves or do
they consume the fur? Is it hard on the bowels? Any advice would
greatly be appreciated. Thanks in advance for your help.

Jennifer

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10b. Re: Complicated meals and furred animals
Posted by: "christyb14" christyb@cox.net christyb14
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:53 pm ((PST))

Hi Jennifer,

I feed Lola whole rabbit. Jump at the chance to get those whole furred rabbits - at half
price no less!!

When Lola eats rabbit her poop is fascinating - it's much larger by volume but light as a
feather! There appears to be no distress from her just affection!

I would suggest feeding B-I-G to slow your guys down. I don't feed every day (Lola is an
adult). I feed Lola based on her appearance and her cues - when she starts acting like a
canine crumb vacuum in the kitchen I know she's hungry. If I decide she's hungry ("she
must be hungry" - based on my assumptions rather than her behavior) she's very excited
by the food but them sniffs it and walks away - I've had her leave food for 2 days!

Feed big pieces of meat - I have fed 25lb. pieces of meat before, that's a challenge and
they are exhausted when finished!

Feed big, feed less often.

Good Luck!
Christy

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jenvandecar" <jenvandecar@...> wrote:
>
>I was wondering what people could reccommend for a complicated or time consuming to
eat meal? My other question is about feeding a whole furred rabbit. I have the
opportunity to by furred rabbits at about half the cost of the skinned ones. Just wondering
what the advantages are to feeding the furry variety. Are the dogs supposed to skin it
themselves or do they consume the fur? Is it hard on the bowels? Any advice would
greatly be appreciated. Thanks in advance for your help. Jennifer

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10c. Re: Complicated meals and furred animals
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:54 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jenvandecar" <jenvandecar@...>
wrote:
>
> Any other suggestions
> for good meaty meals that take a while to eat and don't damage
> teeth? Also looking for things that are more easily readily
> available because I don't know any hunters
> and have had difficulty scoring anything from butchers
> without paying an arm and a leg.

You could try whole chickens or half turkeys and maybe pork ribs.

> Just wondering what the advantages are to feeding the
> furry variety.

I don't think there is any nutritional value. Its one of those
things you are looking for. Something to make eating more work.

> Are the dogs supposed to skin it themselves or do
> they consume the fur?

They generally consume the fur.

> Is it hard on the bowels?

No, its like fiber. It just passes through.

> Any advice would greatly be appreciated.

If you are considering feeding fur on rabbits, get just one or two
to try out first. My dogs won't eat rabbits with fur unless they
caught it or the cats caught it and they can steal it from the
cats. :) They seem to not know what to do with fur-on bought
rabbits.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

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11a. ADMIN/Re: Dog breed abbreviations
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:23 pm ((PST))

Sandy was right: Use Google. Or repost the topic on RawChat. On
Rawfeeding, this topic has run its course.
Chris O
Moderation Team

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12. Re: whole raw feeders
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:57 am ((PST))

>>Everything I ever read about animals taking down prey said that the animal goes for the gut and intestines first. <<

I can tell you from first hand observation of a grizzly fishing in Alaska that the grizzly ate the head of the salmon first, then ripped it open and ate the egg sack. The rest of the body was left. Found this fascinating. The naturalist on board told me that in Aug. bears are trying to pack on the pounds quickly so eat only the most fattening bits at that time of year. He continued that earlier in the year, they eat the entire fish, but still tend to eat head and roe first.

-- Anne andt the PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue

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13. Heartburn (?)
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:11 am ((PST))

I hope that is the correct term in English, I looked it up, another
term would be pyrosis.
What can I do to help Mandy when she's experiencing heartburn? She's
kind of hiccuping then, smacking her lips, drinks water, wants to eat
a lot of grass. All that doesn't give her much relief though- it goes
away again after some time but I'd love to help her. I can't say what
causes it- yesterday it was beef meat and a slab of venison ribs.
There's no pattern I can see- the same food another day doesn't cause it.
Any idea how to help her?

Jennifer with Mandy in Germany

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