[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12274

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Whole raw feeders
From: Andrea
1b. Re: Whole raw feeders
From: Caren OConnor
1c. Re: Whole raw feeders
From: Caren OConnor
1d. Re: Whole raw feeders
From: Tina Berry

2.1. Liver
From: Jenn
2.2. Re: Liver
From: cynthia iparraguirre
2.3. Re: Liver
From: jennifer_hell
2.4. Re: Liver
From: Stephanie Sorensen
2.5. Re: Liver
From: Caren OConnor
2.6. Re: Liver
From: jenvandecar

3a. Feeding Chihuahuas
From: starcos
3b. Re: Feeding Chihuahuas
From: Marguerite
3c. Re: Feeding Chihuahuas
From: auntigeri@aol.com

4a. Re: I need a new vet!
From: Nora Lenz
4b. Re: I need a new vet!
From: Sandee Lee

5a. Feeding chicken
From: Jane Boswell
5b. Re: Feeding chicken
From: Geri
5c. Re: Feeding chicken
From: Tina Berry
5d. Re: Feeding chicken
From: Tina Berry

6a. Re: I need a new vet!!
From: Christine
6b. Re: I need a new vet!!
From: D. Rajska
6c. Re: I need a new vet!!
From: Sandee Lee

7a. Re: Meat and bone grinder
From: Bumble1994@aol.com

8. different proteins
From: krystal_brr

9. Vet and Raw
From: MORGAN LEWIS

Messages
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1a. Re: Whole raw feeders
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:48 am ((PST))

Caren OConnor <cavkist@...> wrote:

> When I feed whole prey, exclusively rabbit to date, my dog always
> goes for the head first and consumes the prey in that direction,
> head, then body. Everything I ever read about animals taking down
> prey said that the animal goes for the gut and intestines first.

I think the observation about eating the gut first usually refers to
large prey like deer and such. Rabbits are pretty bite sized in
comparison, so it's probably easier to start with one end and work the
way down.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (24)
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1b. Re: Whole raw feeders
Posted by: "Caren OConnor" cavkist@yahoo.com cavkist
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:41 am ((PST))

Yassy -
Interesting . . . personal preference. And all the while I thought he was just a pretty face with a "box full of rocks" for a brain:)
Caren O'Connor

Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com> wrote:
> My question, Why does my boy always start at the head and eat that first?

Maybe personal preference??

My dog tend to start meal from organs though..

yassy

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Messages in this topic (24)
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1c. Re: Whole raw feeders
Posted by: "Caren OConnor" cavkist@yahoo.com cavkist
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:42 am ((PST))

Christy -
LOL! Maybe he also doesn't want to look at that little tongue sticking out of that little mouth!!!
How interesting that your girl wants her whole prey "neat." Of course, with my boy, he just wants to eat the whole thing:)
And, yes, I agree about the neighbors' jaws waggin'. Let them think as they will as they poison their pets with "doom nuggets!"
Thanks for the chuckle!
Caren

christyb14 <christyb@cox.net> wrote:
Hi Caren,

Maybe they don't want to be stared at while they are eating?!

The only thing I can feed whole is rabbit as well. Sometimes Lola starts at the bum and
other times she eats the head first - she has never opened it up at the belly, when she
does go for the intestines first it is through the bum.

The only consistent thing with regard to eating whole rabbit with her is she "skins" it - she
will eat everything but the fur (usually with three paws still attached) and it is turned
inside out.

It's very odd as it is perfectly done - you could stuff it, of course you would have a stuffed
headless rabbit sans one paw but still it's quite professional.

She always finishes the "skinned" part on the last day - it takes her from 2-3 days to eat
rabbit depending on their size. When I feed rabbit I fear a neighbor showing up and oh
how quickly the rumors would fly!!

Thanks,
Christy

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Caren OConnor <cavkist@...> wrote:

> When I feed whole prey, exclusively rabbit to date, my dog always goes for the head
first and consumes the prey in that direction, head, then body. Everything I ever read
about animals taking down prey said that the animal goes for the gut and intestines first.
My question, Why does my boy always start at the head and eat that first? Caren O'Connor

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Messages in this topic (24)
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1d. Re: Whole raw feeders
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:43 am ((PST))

"Why does my boy always start at the head and eat that first?"

My prev gsd (bad girl) got my roommates bunny to hop out of it's cage - she
couldn't get inside the cage but she must have gotten the door open....
anyway, I found the bunny in the yard - only the head was missing...

oh, and I had to tell my roommate he must have gotten out and hopped
away....
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (24)
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2.1. Liver
Posted by: "Jenn" jennswisher@gmail.com jennswisher
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:20 am ((PST))

Hello!
The only way I can get my Coonhound to eat liver is to cook it. He
won't touch it raw, beef or chicken liver. I have tried pan searing,
but he still won't eat it. However, if I boil it, he goes crazy for it.
Weird, I think, but is there a problem with feeding him the liver this
way if this is the only way I can get him to eat it?
Thanks!
Jennifer

Messages in this topic (97)
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2.2. Re: Liver
Posted by: "cynthia iparraguirre" cyn7711@yahoo.com cyn7711
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:41 am ((PST))

Have you tried feeding it while it is still frozen? I had the same issue w/my Lab but for what ever reason she does not seem to have a problem w/it when its frozen.

Cyn


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----- Original Message ----
From: Jenn <jennswisher@gmail.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 7:19:01 AM
Subject: [rawfeeding] Liver

Hello!
The only way I can get my Coonhound to eat liver is to cook it. He
won't touch it raw, beef or chicken liver. I have tried pan searing,
but he still won't eat it. However, if I boil it, he goes crazy for it.
Weird, I think, but is there a problem with feeding him the liver this
way if this is the only way I can get him to eat it?
Thanks!
Jennifer

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Messages in this topic (97)
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2.3. Re: Liver
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:41 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Jenn" <jennswisher@...> wrote:

> Weird, I think, but is there a problem with feeding him the liver this
> way if this is the only way I can get him to eat it?

Have you tried cutting it in small pieces and mix it with parmesan or
green tripe?
My girl hates glibbery slimy stuff. It's really hard to get her to eat
it. Heart and liver only cut into small pieces and mixed with grated
parmesan.

Jennifer with Mandy

Messages in this topic (97)
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2.4. Re: Liver
Posted by: "Stephanie Sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:41 am ((PST))

The nutritional value is sapped from it by cooking it - raw is definitely better!

My lab hates liver too, but here's how I got around it: I got some ground venison (ground beef works too, and I hear that green tripe is also a major winner here), mixed it with small slivers of raw beef liver and an egg (shell and all).

She gobbles it all up every time! Just try mixing it with something he loves and chances are he'll inhale it without even knowing it!

Good luck!

-Steph
Scarlet, Lucy, and Minkey (the kitty)

Jenn <jennswisher@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello!
The only way I can get my Coonhound to eat liver is to cook it. He
won't touch it raw, beef or chicken liver. I have tried pan searing,
but he still won't eat it. However, if I boil it, he goes crazy for it.
Weird, I think, but is there a problem with feeding him the liver this
way if this is the only way I can get him to eat it?
Thanks!
Jennifer

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Messages in this topic (97)
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2.5. Re: Liver
Posted by: "Caren OConnor" cavkist@yahoo.com cavkist
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:42 am ((PST))

Jennifer -
I've only been feeding whole prey raw for about three years so I'm no expert but . . .
It's my understanding that liver is such an important part of the diet that whatever one has to do to get their dog(s) to eat, is acceptable. My Cavaliers are not into the texture of calves liver so I must sear it first. Now chicken and duck livers, they'll eat raw but calves liver - NO WAY!
Caren O'Connor
Nansemond Cavaliers

Jenn <jennswisher@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello!
The only way I can get my Coonhound to eat liver is to cook it. He
won't touch it raw, beef or chicken liver. I have tried pan searing,
but he still won't eat it. However, if I boil it, he goes crazy for it.
Weird, I think, but is there a problem with feeding him the liver this
way if this is the only way I can get him to eat it?
Thanks!
Jennifer

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Messages in this topic (97)
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2.6. Re: Liver
Posted by: "jenvandecar" jenvandecar@hotmail.com jenvandecar
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:43 am ((PST))

Hi. I don't know much about whether or not cooked liver loses its
nutrients, but have you tried to feed small amounts of it frozen?
That's how I feed it to my girls and they seem to like it that way. A
friend of mine says this is the only way her dogs will eat raw liver.
I do it for more of a convenience factor as a forget to thaw the small
amount of liver I feed and then they don't eat enough organs. Hope
this helps. I may not be much of a help with picky eaters because I
have chow hounds! LOL

Jennifer

> The only way I can get my Coonhound to eat liver is to cook it. He
> won't touch it raw, beef or chicken liver. I have tried pan searing,
> but he still won't eat it. However, if I boil it, he goes crazy for
it.
> Weird, I think, but is there a problem with feeding him the liver
this
> way if this is the only way I can get him to eat it?
> Thanks!
> Jennifer
>

Messages in this topic (97)
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3a. Feeding Chihuahuas
Posted by: "starcos" sistergoldenhair3034@msn.com starcos
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:57 am ((PST))

Hi everyone,
Chihuahua owners, need some ideas on what meat and bones you are
feeding your chis. I am feeding chicken necks, wings, turkey but have
to smash the bones a little besides the organ meats and some of the
ground up meats. Have some other suggestions? By the way, I love
this group and am very excited about your responses!

Estella

Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: Feeding Chihuahuas
Posted by: "Marguerite" semitruestory@gmail.com margo532001
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:42 am ((PST))

Cornish hens are a good choice, if you can find them on sale. They have real
soft bones. My little Yorkie loves them, but there is nothing she won't eat,
so far.
Marguerite

On 11/13/07, starcos <sistergoldenhair3034@msn.com> wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
> Chihuahua owners, need some ideas on what meat and bones you are
> feeding your chis. I am feeding chicken necks, wings, turkey but have
> to smash the bones a little besides the organ meats and some of the
> ground up meats. Have some other suggestions? By the way, I love
> this group and am very excited about your responses!
>
> Estella
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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3c. Re: Feeding Chihuahuas
Posted by: "auntigeri@aol.com" auntigeri@aol.com gericolloton
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:43 am ((PST))

Hi Estella

I have a chi and she eats chicken (every part of the chicken), pork but just the meat I have not given her pork bones, and beef (also just the meat not the bones of the beef) and some organs.? She is relatively new to raw -- so in time I will increase the variety of what she gets.

Geri

-----Original Message-----
From: starcos <sistergoldenhair3034@msn.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 9:30 am
Subject: [rawfeeding] Feeding Chihuahuas

need some ideas on what meat and bones you are
feeding your chis.

Estella

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Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Re: I need a new vet!
Posted by: "Nora Lenz" nmlenz@speakeasy.net rawnora
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:41 am ((PST))

Hungrymoses,
Imo, you don't need a vet at all. Since I started applying the "removal of cause" principle to my
own dog's symptoms, he has not visited a vet in 12 years. I have cared for other people's animals
for 20 years and without fail it is always the ones who belong to vets, doctors, dentists and others
who live by the medical paradigm that are the sickest.

Take full charge of and full responsibility for the health of your animals. When there is a
symptom, remove the cause. Since the cause of disease in humans and animals is typically dietary in
origin, tweak the diet. Fast the animal until symptoms improve or abate, and feed lightly to break
the fast. If you don't know about fasting, learn -- there are wonderful books like "Fasting Can
Save Your Life" by Herbert Shelton. Fasting is nature's healing miracle, and as far as I've been
able to determine, it is not being applied to the care of sick companion animals, to their peril.

Follow nature's model. If you're already doing that to the extent that you're feeding raw and vets
are telling you you're crazy, doesn't that tell you something? They think nature is crazy. The
fact is, vets are the ones who are crazy. They are taught how to suppress symptoms with drugs and
herbal remedies (because this is what serves their industry), and they know literally nothing about
what it takes to create health.

I know it can be scary if you're used to depending on medical professionals for the care of your
animals, but if you educate yourself about the causes of health you can build the confidence it
takes to get them out of your life completely. Your animals will only be healthier for it.

Best wishes,
Nora

Messages in this topic (2)
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4b. Re: I need a new vet!
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:16 am ((PST))

While I totally agree we need to take responsibility for the health of our
animals, disease is not caused by diet alone, and fasting is *not* a miracle
cure! It may have it's place when there is a digestive upset, but that's
about it!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Nora Lenz" <nmlenz@speakeasy.net>
>
> Take full charge of and full responsibility for the health of your
animals. When there is a
> symptom, remove the cause. Since the cause of disease in humans and
animals is typically dietary in
> origin, tweak the diet. Fast the animal until symptoms improve or abate,
and feed lightly to break
> the fast. If you don't know about fasting, learn -- there are wonderful
books like "Fasting Can
> Save Your Life" by Herbert Shelton. Fasting is nature's healing miracle,
and as far as I've been
> able to determine, it is not being applied to the care of sick companion
animals, to their peril.

Messages in this topic (2)
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5a. Feeding chicken
Posted by: "Jane Boswell" famtimes@blazenetme.net famtimes2001
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:41 am ((PST))

On another list that I'm on, a member posted
that feeding too much chicken will result in
a serious dietary deficiency of copper.
Specifically feeding 50 percent chicken can
be harmful. Another member talked about
too much chicken causing seizures.

Has anyone on this list had a similar experience?

Although chicken and turkey are staples in our
diet, my dogs do get beef, pork, venison, fish,
organs, etc. I also use an organic vitamin/mineral
supplement and fish oil.

If anyone has information on feeding chicken
and its risks, I would be interested to know more.

Thanks,

Jane Boswell

Messages in this topic (4)
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5b. Re: Feeding chicken
Posted by: "Geri" auntigeri@aol.com gericolloton
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:19 am ((PST))

I would be interested to know more about this too.

Geri

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Jane Boswell" <famtimes@...> wrote:
>
> On another list that I'm on, a member posted
> that feeding too much chicken will result in
> a serious dietary deficiency of copper.
> Specifically feeding 50 percent chicken can
> be harmful. Another member talked about
> too much chicken causing seizures.
> >
> If anyone has information on feeding chicken
> and its risks, I would be interested to know more.
>
>
> Jane Boswell
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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5c. Re: Feeding chicken
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:19 am ((PST))

"On another list that I'm on, a member posted that feeding too much chicken
will result in a serious dietary deficiency of copper. Specifically feeding
50 percent chicken can be harmful. Another member talked about
too much chicken causing seizures."

When I started feeding raw 3yrs ago, mine got 50% whole chickens and 50%
beef heart for about 2 yrs, and liver once a week. Didn't experience any
issues whatsoever, blood tests were always normal. This is the first I've
heard this about chicken - this summer my bunch ate 100% chicken/turkey as
that's what I had available.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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Messages in this topic (4)
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5d. Re: Feeding chicken
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:19 am ((PST))

Here is a good link about copper that says "& chicken are relatively low in
copper but provide a reasonable amount of copper to the body because they
are consumed in significant amounts."

http://www.copperinfo.com/health/goodhealth.html
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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6a. Re: I need a new vet!!
Posted by: "Christine" chrizk20@yahoo.com chrizk20
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:42 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "hungrymoses" <hungrymoses@...>
wrote:
>
> MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
>
> Is there anyone out there who can recommend a vet in the Montreal area
> that won't tell me what an idiot I am for feeding my dog a raw diet?
> I've already been to three that have warned me of the horrible danger
> I'm putting my dog in. Please help...
>

Why even bother telling a vet? The vet doesnt need to know, they aren't
nutritionist.
I havent taken my dogs to a vet in over a year now and if i needed to,
its none of their buisness. I know that RAW food for my dogs is the
best and whatever crap in the bag that they want to try to promote wont
get me to buy it!

Christine K.

Messages in this topic (4)
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6b. Re: I need a new vet!!
Posted by: "D. Rajska" d.rajska@gmail.com deerajska
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:43 am ((PST))

Hey,

I wish I could recommend a vet... I live in Hamilton, and the situation here
is the same - all the vets are anti-raw. So - for Frankie's first vet
appointment today, I took a page from my sister's book and flat-out lied.
Obviously it would be wonderful if we all could have vets who we could be
totally honest with, and I am concerned about the quality of overall care
that my pet will receive if his human and his vet cannot communicate openly
and be on the same page.... But if that's not an option, take a half hour to
go to a high-end pet shop, stare at the kibbles, and pick one that's really
high-end that you can lie convincingly about. My choice for "pretend food"
is Orijen - because it's grain-free, so I can object to any crap-in-a-bag
that my vet might want to give him as treats because I can admit to being
anti-grain and still have her respect me somewhat.

I also told her I can't put his on flea poison because I'm allergic to every
cleaning product out there and I'm afraid *I* would not be able to tolerate
the flea treatment - which is a bit of an elaboration/contortion of the
truth, but again, lie convincingly, and no one will know....

It's a shitty compromise, but it's better than going from vet to vet to vet
and getting into a shouting match with a moron whom you're paying for their
time. Plus the tension can't be good for your pet either.
Best of luck....

Dee & Frankie.

On Nov 13, 2007 9:24 AM, hungrymoses <hungrymoses@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Is there anyone out there who can recommend a vet in the Montreal area
> that won't tell me what an idiot I am for feeding my dog a raw diet?
> .
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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6c. Re: I need a new vet!!
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:19 am ((PST))

Don't tell them. Vets are not nutritionists and you certainly don't need
their approval for your choice of food!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "hungrymoses" <hungrymoses@yahoo.com>

Is there anyone out there who can recommend a vet in the Montreal area
that won't tell me what an idiot I am for feeding my dog a raw diet?
I've already been to three that have warned me of the horrible danger
I'm putting my dog in. Please help...

Messages in this topic (4)
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7a. Re: Meat and bone grinder
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:42 am ((PST))

In a message dated 11/13/2007 7:11:37 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, "starcos"
writes:

I have a chihuahua and find that the bones
and meat need to be grounded.

Hi, Estella,

Have more faith in your pup!

I have what used to be a 6 lb. cat (now 8 pounds) and over time, have found
that she is perfectly capable of and happy to (sings while doing it) grind her
own meat and bones--chicken, rabbit, and fish bones being at the top of her
list, and she also eats her way through just the meat parts of beef and port.
Lamb bones are iffy... She gnaws but can't really eat them. My other 2 cats
(that used to be 8 pounders--now 10) had pieces of lamb chop for supper last
night and did away with almost all the bone, too.

Lynda

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

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Messages in this topic (4)
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8. different proteins
Posted by: "krystal_brr" rkbarr@hughes.net krystal_brr
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:18 am ((PST))

I understand the concept of introducing a new protein gradually, but
what if you introduce a protein but then can't get it again for like 6-
9 months?

I am thinking of lamb, which I don't buy but I know someone who will
give me scraps very occasionally. If I introduce it once is that good
or do I need to treat it like a new protein source if it has been
months since the dogs have had it?

Thanks
Krystal

Messages in this topic (1)
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9. Vet and Raw
Posted by: "MORGAN LEWIS" shadowland22000@yahoo.com shadowland22000
Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:19 am ((PST))

I first went to RAW 3 1/2 years ago. The PF group said the first thing you do id change their diet, no corn or parly, no soy. Many cook their food. Weel after checking all the packaging, I said what the hell. These are wolves, let them eat like Wolves. So I changed diets and never said a word to Vet. One year latter time for annual checkup for pup and took mom in also. Now she had always had tarter buildup, and yucky ears. Checked the pup, every thing fine, then mom, he looked her over - no PF, no Tarter, no yucky ears, no intestinal parasites of any sort. He looked at me and stated "You went RAW, didn't you?"

2 years later pup checked for Thyroid, Cardiac, Hips and Elbows (OFA CERTIFICATION) on ALL. Did the RAW diet do all of this, I don't know, but I'm damn glad I changed. And neither dog has had tarter in 3 1/2 years. (maybe this is one of the reasons your Vet does not like RAW, MOney out of his pocket) Morgan

Morgan and His Angels
Precious, OFA
Princess, CGC, TDI, GSDCA Health Award

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