[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12280

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: problems on raw food
From: katkellm
1b. Re: problems on raw food
From: mbrown33333
1c. Re: problems on raw food
From: costrowski75
1d. Re: problems on raw food
From: costrowski75
1e. Re: problems on raw food
From: Morledzep@aol.com

2.1. Re: Chicken Backs
From: Sandee Lee
2.2. Re: Chicken Backs
From: carnesbill
2.3. Re: Chicken Backs
From: shefy gupta
2.4. Re: Chicken Backs
From: Giselle
2.5. Re: Chicken Backs
From: Morledzep@aol.com

3a. Re: Heartburn (?)
From: Giselle
3b. Re: Heartburn (?)
From: jennifer_hell

4a. Re: 7 week puppy with diarrhea
From: Giselle

5.1. Re: New to list
From: Joni
5.2. Re: New to list
From: Giselle

6. 2 months into raw
From: mandajenwalker

7a. They won't eat chicken
From: mrsmenk
7b. Re: They won't eat chicken
From: doreenchui

8a. Re: I need a new vet!!
From: Dee.1725

9a. Re: bones for puppies
From: costrowski75

10a. Re: What Am I Doing Wrong?
From: Giselle

11a. Would like to start feeding raw diet
From: stark_rain24
11b. Re: Would like to start feeding raw diet
From: Joni

12a. Re: Um, Brains?
From: Morledzep@aol.com

13. 15 wk old puppy
From: Janice Aquino

Messages
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1a. Re: problems on raw food
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:12 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Nora Lenz" <nmlenz@...> wrote:

> The answer isn ot to keep food in the stomach so the
> bile always has something to do, but to get the dog on a low-fat diet
> so that the body will stop producing so much bile.

Hi Nora,
I assume that you asked advice from veteran raw feeders on this list.
Me, too. It seems, however, that some how we took away a different
awareness of the bile vomit solution. While we agree that we learned
that the bile is a response to an anticipated meal, we didn't seem to
take away the same solution to the problem. I don't believe that
anyone on this list said to feed more often for the long haul. I
don't believe that i learned to keep the stomach full. What i took
away from this was that smaller more frequent meals were used to help
an upset stomach get back up to speed. These small meals were not
meant to go on forever or to keep the stomach full to prevent vomit.
The way to stop bile vomit is to stop the stomach from watching the
clock and preparing for an anticipated meal at a precise time. I
thought the answer was to feed meals at random times. I would guess
that for a wolf the digestive juices flow in response to the hunt and
kill, not the clock. I would think that when nature is kind wolves
kill and eat things that have fat. When times are tough, the catch
might be lean. A dog that hasn't eaten a fatty food for a while
might get a response to the fat, but if the dog consumed fat for a
time that same healthy dog would adjust to the fat content of the
meal. If you have to alter the diet and remove fat, you are band aid
fixing the problem. The vomit might stop, but the underlying problem
still exists. JMO, KathyM

Messages in this topic (20)
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1b. Re: problems on raw food
Posted by: "mbrown33333" mbrown33333@yahoo.co.uk mbrown33333
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:12 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mbrown33333" <mbrown33333@...>
wrote:
>
> started my staffy ruby on raw 8 days ago

thanks to all that answered about ruby....she is back to her old self
today and as she could do with being a good few pounds lighter i will
cut down what she gets to eat which will help a bit.
temps here in adelaide have gone into the 30c + for the last few days
which will not have helped but we will both learn more about getting
it sorted out so she is happy with her new food source and as the new
puppy arrives in 8 days we have a lot to look forward to in the next
few weeks'

thanks mike,ruby and soon cleo

Messages in this topic (20)
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1c. Re: problems on raw food
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:03 pm ((PST))

"Salvador Gonzalez Jr." <salgonza@...> wrote:
>
> So if the dog is to eat 10% fat.
>
> Lets say 80lbs dog eating 2% of his weight.
>
> He shouldn't have no more than 2.56oz of fat?
*****
No, no, no.
There is no 10% limit on dietary fat. That is bogus, without
substantiation. Assuming your dog can benefit from it, you could
easily feed 30% dietary fat.

And everything that's measured in a raw diet is doled out over time,
not meal by meal. Some meals can be very lean, some can be pretty
fatty, some are a comfortable mix of flesh and fat. And some dogs
need more fat than others; some dogs because of pre-existing or
underlying health issues have to get by on lean meals.

Don't worry about how much fat is in the diet; don't worry about fat
on a meal by meal basis.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (20)
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1d. Re: problems on raw food
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:12 pm ((PST))

"spricketysprock" <jess.hamway@...> wrote:
>
> I think both are valid causes. I'm glad you posted this... when I
first
> switched my dog to raw, he threw up bile all the time because his
> stomach wasn't used to being empty. He adjusted in a few weeks and
> hadn't thrown up for months. I recently got him a whole chicken
that
> was very fatty, and the day after eating some he vomited yellow
bile
> several times, very likely because of all the fat he'd eaten.
*****
"Very likely" is not much of a recommendation. I suspect without
further investigation, you can only guess.

But more to the point, that sometimes maybe perhaps fat might maybe
perhaps contribute to bile vomit does not justify one whit feeding a
dog a low-fat diet. Perhaps it justifies monitoring the size of meal
one feeds, or maybe it justifies keeping a journal of meals so as to
find a pattern. But that's it.

Restricting an otherwise healthy dog to a low-fat menu to avoid
yellow bile vomit is very much throwing the baby out with the
bathwater. Especially since, as you said, there is more than one
cause. The other issue we have to consider is whether yellow bile
vomits are debilitating.

I suggest they are not, absent other underlying health issues.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (20)
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1e. Re: problems on raw food
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:06 am ((PST))

In a message dated 11/14/2007 4:57:39 PM Pacific Standard Time,
steph.sorensen@yahoo.com writes:

It's just that the beef brisket they've been eating on this week was about
40% fat. I just think that is a little too much, don't you? Should I not trim
it anymore? It does make the final product weigh much less than the product I
bought.

Interested to know others' thoughts on this. My girls are also quite gassy,
which I've found is cut back by feeding less fat.

Steph,

my dogs get a little gassy on fatty foods too. But fat is GOOD for dogs, so
i do NOT trim any fat off of any hunk o meat.. unless of course there is more
fat than meat in the meal, then i'll cut a hunk off.

When it comes to beef brisket i don't trim it at all. i whack it into meal
sized hunks, and the fatty end piece i give to the dog with the driest skin at
the time (usually one of the akitas).

Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

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Messages in this topic (20)
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2.1. Re: Chicken Backs
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:01 pm ((PST))

Mallory,

I *used* to buy cases of chicken backs, turkey necks, etc. from a
wholesaler. Problem is, since they are too bony and you have to add meat
anyway, so it's not really any cheaper ( in fact more expensive) than buying
whole chickens, turkeys, pork roasts, beef hearts, etc. from your local
market.

Watch for sales...you should be able to get some good deals especially this
time of the year...turkeys are cheap!!! :))

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Mallory Kwiatkowski" <m_k_jesusfreak3@yahoo.com>

> where are you all getting cases of chicken backs? or cases of anything for
that matter. I have been feeding 5 dogs raw from the grocery store, and i
just can't do that anymore. where do you all go?

Messages in this topic (42)
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2.2. Re: Chicken Backs
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:10 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "windmilldairy" <drwindmill@...>
wrote:
>
> Just wondering what others are paying for cases of chicken backs..

$10 for a 40# case. Thats $.25/lb. :) :) :) I've been paying that
same price for over 3 years now.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (42)
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2.3. Re: Chicken Backs
Posted by: "shefy gupta" shefy7@yahoo.com shefy7
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:13 pm ((PST))

I noticed that too...I went to the grocery store today and was inspecting and poking all the different parts of chickens they had available...the butcher was lookign at me funny lol...

i picked up a small chicken whole and noticed that the legs ( i think it was legs?) are pretty small and hard...i'm wondering if it's possible for them to crack their teeth on this? I know a lot of people said chicken bones are pretty soft but i'm not sure if that includes all the bones of the chicken?

are there any parts i shoudl keep clear of? snowy is 20lbs and he can barely fit a tennis ball in his mouth....

oh and they usually have a clearance section in the grocery stores for meats that are almost expired...they're usually at least 50% off...you can check there and just stock up :)

thanks!
shefy and snowy

John and Jeni Blackmon <jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Not enough meat on the backs for my dogs, I do the whole chickens, when I did do backs, I got them for .40 a pound. But like I said, not enough meat on them to pay for them any more.
Jeni

---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

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Messages in this topic (42)
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2.4. Re: Chicken Backs
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:54 am ((PST))

Hi, Pat!
I don't buy backs.

Why buy bony parts that you need to add meat to?

Whole turkeys are on sale everywhere for the holidays, stock up!

You could get a free or cheap freezer from your local craigslist or
FreeCycle.
Or

http://www.freesharing.org

http://www.sharingisgiving.org

http://www.reuseitnetwork.org/

TC

Giselle

with Bea in New Jersey

On Nov 14, 2007 9:33 PM, windmilldairy <drwindmill@gmail.com> wrote:

> Just wondering what others are paying for cases of chicken backs..
>
> Pat
>
>

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Messages in this topic (42)
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2.5. Re: Chicken Backs
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:06 am ((PST))

In a message dated 11/14/2007 7:24:05 PM Pacific Standard Time,
drwindmill@gmail.com writes:

Just wondering what others are paying for cases of chicken backs..

Pat,

i don't pay for chicken backs.. haven't bought a case of chicken backs in 4
years. And i probably won't anytime soon.

i buy chicken breast trim when it's available for cheap, and i buy hearts
sometimes in 5 lb bags. but other than that, i only buy whole chickens and just
whack them in half or quarters for the dogs depending on their size.

Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (42)
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3a. Re: Heartburn (?)
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:21 pm ((PST))

Hi, Jennifer!
I really hate to say this, but it sounds like the
beginnings of chronic pancreatitis to me.
Hiccuping, lip smacking, grass eating are all signs. Fatty meals are usually
the spark for an attack. After awhile, even not so fatty meals can set it
off.

Refusal to eat or diarrhea or vomiting food/bile or evidence of pain after
eating or stretching/bowing after eating or tenderness in the abdominal area
are more severe signs.

I hope I'm wrong, but I would take her to the vet asap if she were my dog.

The vet may want to treat with a clinic stay, fasting, iv fluids, even
antibiotics.
http://www.vetcentric.com/reference/encycEntry.cfm?ENTRY=23&COLLECTION=EncycIllness&MODE=full

A very low fat diet is important for a dog with pancreatitis. Feeding whole
prey, such as rabbit, fish, mice, rats, hamsters, etc. may help to provide
leaner proteins with skin/fur a variety of organs for more optimum
nutrition.

As much as I like Slippery Elm for digestive upsets, I don't think it will
help in this case, except to provide short term soothing for intestinal
irritation/inflammation.

I'd offer her low sodium, very low fat/no fat broth until you can get her
seen.

Please, let us know what the result is for Mandy.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

Anyone? I ordered Slippery Elm now. Hope that will solve it?

Jennifer

On Nov 13, 2007 6:40 AM, jennifer_hell <jenniferhell@web.de> wrote:

> I hope that is the correct term in English, I looked it up, another
> term would be pyrosis.
> What can I do to help Mandy when she's experiencing heartburn? She's
> kind of hiccuping then, smacking her lips, drinks water, wants to eat
> a lot of grass. All that doesn't give her much relief though- it goes
> away again after some time but I'd love to help her. I can't say what
> causes it- yesterday it was beef meat and a slab of venison ribs.
> There's no pattern I can see- the same food another day doesn't cause it.
> Any idea how to help her?
>
> Jennifer with Mandy in Germany
>
>

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Messages in this topic (4)
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3b. Re: Heartburn (?)
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:06 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Giselle <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Jennifer!
> I really hate to say this, but it sounds like the
> beginnings of chronic pancreatitis to me.
> Hiccuping, lip smacking, grass eating are all signs. Fatty meals are
usually
> the spark for an attack. After awhile, even not so fatty meals can
set it
> off.
>
> Refusal to eat or diarrhea or vomiting food/bile or evidence of pain
after
> eating or stretching/bowing after eating or tenderness in the
abdominal area
> are more severe signs.
>
Thank you, Giselle. She was back to normal again after about three
hours. She has no visible pain. I'll ask my vet in any case and read
up on chronic pancreatitis.

Jennifer

Messages in this topic (4)
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4a. Re: 7 week puppy with diarrhea
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:03 pm ((PST))

Hi, Jessica!
I agree with Jeni,

NO MORE WORMING

MORE MEAT

a little WHOLE EDIBLE BONE

NO GROUND MEAT

FEED LEG OR BREAST QUARTERS

NO NECKS, unless they are attached to the bird.

I'd add another couple of recommendations;
1) fast for 1-2 meals

2) offer *plenty* of low sodium low fat broth with some Slippery Elm Bark
Powder stirred in, to reduce digestive upset. You can get them in a health
food store, either loose or in capsules.

3) Offer breast halves for the first few meals. Smaller and less bony meals
at first will help pup get off to a better start.

4) Feed through whole, cut up chickens, not just bony necks and drums. Add
the hearts and gizzards to the bonier leg quarters when you start to feed
them.

The only other thing I can think it might be, aside from too much bone, and
too much new too soon, is maybe Giardia. The vet can check for that,
especially if it recurs.

Let us know how the little big guy is doing!
TC
Giselle

On Nov 14, 2007 2:55 PM, John and Jeni Blackmon <jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

> wings and necks, are too boney, that could be the problem, not enough
> meat at all, try just some boneless meat for several days, necks and wings
> are way too boney, not nearly enough meat, did I say NOT ENOUGH MEAT, :)
> Try some boneless thighs, breasts, and ground chicken is fine, just make
> it all meat for a few days, if not longer to see if that helps, and tell the
> vet, the diet shouldn't be the problem, as the diet is not new to the dog,
> as far as the vet is concerned, make him work for his money, do the sample,
> and see what comes of it, probably nothing, probably too much bone,
> hopefully it is that simple.
> And please stop the deworming, once should do it, too many chemicals. Poor
> thing. Give it a rest, and just do the meaty chicken.
> And when you go back to chicken with bones, try the whole chicken, but cut
> it into pieces the puppy can handle, that way you have the meat to bone
> ratio down a little better, bone should only be about 10% of the meals, so
> necks, in my opinion, are a waste of money, but if your dog likes them,
> maybe have them for recreation, not nutrition. And the meals will work
> themselves out thru out the week when you do the whole chickens, with the
> bones, the meat, and with the whole chickens, they come with the little
> organs too, so you get your organs for the week too:)
> Just a thought, let us know what the vet says.
> Jeni
>
>

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5.1. Re: New to list
Posted by: "Joni" naturalbeautyandnutrition@yahoo.com naturalbeautyandnutrition
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:10 pm ((PST))

Thanks Bill Carnes for all the info. I don't eat much meat myself,
and have been starting to eat organic. But then I don't eat much so
it isn't so costly in the end. I bought grass fed roast and it was
better. I will gain weight every time I get roast but with this I
don't.

I have done a lot of research on all of this. And organic or all
natural is better for you and your pet. But being I have to buy so
much for them I don't see the point. It would be better to at least
have enough to feed them then run short and broke.

I have two freezers and I do buy in bulk as much as I can. But my
freezers are almost full, so I don't have much room. I cook a lot
from scratch and freez it after.

I will try everything I have been given from this group and see were
I can save. This group is great with wonderful people.

I would like to ask you all about green tripe. It sounds like this
is very very good for the animals. And the kind in the stores (if
mine even carry it) is bleached and that is not as good. So how many
of you feed this to your animals and what effect did it have on them?

Joni

Messages in this topic (102)
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5.2. Re: New to list
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:49 am ((PST))

Hi, Heather!
Welcome to the raw side!
You need to review The Lis List, a great compilation of creative ways to
source protein variety cheaply or for free.
You can even find a cheap or free freezer, or two, on craigslist or
FreeCycle to keep your scores in.

*http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/139618*

*Post #139618*
TC and post with updates on your dog's progress or with questions you might
have.
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On Nov 14, 2007 1:28 PM, hmize1 <hmize1@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hi everyone,
> I've been reading archives and plan to lurk for a while. I have two
> English Mastiffs - Gus is 6 and about 180#'s, Bucky is 5 and about
> 130#'s. They are small for their breed but perfect in most other
> ways. :)
>
> I'm interested in feeding raw because Bucky has some itchy skin type
> allergies, plus we are always battling ear goo (yeast) and doggy
> breath from plaque on their teeth. They also love to chew, so I'm
> sure they'd enjoy going to town on a chicken.
>
> I am curious about the cost of feeding raw foods. We currently spend
> about $60/month on dry food. If I were to feed them only whole
> chickens, that would be over $100/month (figuring 2% of their weight
> and $0.59/pound on sale). There may be cheaper sources, but I know
> they shouldn't have exclusively chicken so that may cost more.
>
> Does that seem like a reasonable estimate? I know we'll save money
> on medication, ear cleaner, teeth cleaning, etc. Just trying to get
> a sense for monthly cost.
>
> Thanks!
> Heather
>
>

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6. 2 months into raw
Posted by: "mandajenwalker" walker1031@chartermi.net mandajenwalker
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:11 pm ((PST))

MODERATOR'S NOTE: REMEMBER TO SIGN YOUR MESSAGES!

Hi all,
I haven't posted in a while.....I have just been reading.
I have now gotten myself in a meat buying rutt!!!!
I am still not clear what all edible organs are and how to feed it. I
have been doing mainly liver.......what else can I feed them?
I am also having a hard time getting them variety when I buy. I seem
to use chicken quarters as the base and adding beef brisket or
pork.....I feed egg a couple times a week and fish a couple times a
week. i have been using Blue Hake as my fish (cuz that is what I
have).....I haven't been able to stock up on meat because of my
budget, so I am just buying by the week. Does anyone have any ideas
for me as far as what I can do to mix it up a little. An example of a
daily meal for your pets would be great (including muscle meat, bone,
organ ratio/weight). I would greatly appreciate it.

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7a. They won't eat chicken
Posted by: "mrsmenk" mrsmenk@starpower.net mrsmenk
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:12 pm ((PST))

I have been reading your messages for the past few weeks as I
transitioned my dogs (8 yr old lab/dane mix and 5 yr old dane) to raw.
They are now both eating raw but are turning away chicken. I cannot
afford to feed them both beef or pork at every meal. Should I take the
tough love approach and let them go hungry until they eat it? The lab
mix (Luke) is much pickier than the dane (Lucy) but now even the dane
won't eat the chicken. I tried turkey necks this week and got Lucy to
chew up one but Luke just turned his nose up. I am worried that he is
not getting any bone because most of the beef bone I give him is
inedible.

Does anyone have any experience with this? I hate to make them go
hungry so I would love another solution. Thanks

Linda in VA
Luke & Lucy

Messages in this topic (2)
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7b. Re: They won't eat chicken
Posted by: "doreenchui" doreenchui@yeos.com doreenchui
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:42 pm ((PST))

EDITED BY MODERATOR. TRIM YOUR MESSAGES!

You are not alone.
I am facing the same problem. I tried putting it back n served again
n again but to no avail.
Doreen
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mrsmenk" <mrsmenk@...> wrote:
>
> I have been reading your messages for the past few weeks as I
> transitioned my dogs (8 yr old lab/dane mix and 5 yr old dane) to
raw.
> They are now both eating raw but are turning away chicken.

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8a. Re: I need a new vet!!
Posted by: "Dee.1725" dee.1725@yahoo.ca dagmarhnadeck
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:15 pm ((PST))

EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.

Hi

My Dobie puppy was seen by a vet in Ville D'Anjou and when he asked me what I was feeding him and I told him raw, he just nodded and said "good". I cannot tell if how good a vet he is besides that as that is the only time I saw him. I live on the north shore and prefer to go closer to home.

Dagmar Hnadeck

----- Original Message -----
From: Shannon Parker
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 9:38 PM
Subject: Re: [rawfeeding] I need a new vet!!

Hi There,

Just stop telling your vet you feed raw.

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9a. Re: bones for puppies
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:56 pm ((PST))

"icemama68" <icemama68@...> wrote:
> I want to give my 10 week old puppies some bones to chew on- which
are
> the best for puppies? They are Portuguese Podengo Medio puppies-
grown
> up they will be about Whippet size.
*****
Give them meaty bones and let them mess with the bones after they've
eaten off the meat and nibbled the ends and edges. I find pork
shoulder roast bones (both blade and arm) to be great meals and
excellent amusements; a lamb shank works much the same way. You
might try a section of pork neck bone--not the measly cut up pieces
but a larger part of the action. Lamb necks are good too. Beef ribs
are another possibility. These are all of them good meat sources
before they become fun toys.

Bully sticks might be an option if you're not looking for meaty/fun
bones.
Chris O

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10a. Re: What Am I Doing Wrong?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:33 pm ((PST))

Hi, Jackie!
Have you read the labeling on the chicken you are feeding?
Sometimes, dogs react adversely to 'enhanced' meats. They can get itchy,
vomit, have diarrhea, drink more, urinate more often. It doesn't happen for
all dogs, just a few. Read the fine print on the front and back of the
labels. If it says salt solution injected or flavoring or seasoning added,
then your girl may be reacting to the additives, not the chicken itself.
Easy fix.

It also could be too much food at a meal, or too much food a day, or too
much new food, or too much fat, or too much bone for her.

Double check the amounts you are feeding - she should probably be eating
about 2-3% of her estimated IDEAL body weight a DAY. Maybe a little more,
since she is a JR, and is probably a busy little bee. ; )
3% of say, 12 pounds = 5.76 ounces a day
4% of 12 pounds = 7.68 ounces a day
divide that amount into 1 or 2 meals a day.

If she needs to lose weight, then use the weight you want her to weigh to
calculate her daily amount.
You can enter the formula into the Google search engine, and it will
calculate the amount for you. It comes out in grams, so you'll need to enter
the grams you get into the search box, with a / and then the amount of grams
for 1 ounce, 28.3495231 grams and it will figure that for you.

Loose poops are not necessarily diarrhea. Loose, even runny poops can be a
reflection of boneless or organ heavy meals. Be careful when you evaluate
what you are seeing.

You might want to fast her for a day, offer plenty of low sodium low fat
broth with a little Slippery Elm Bark Powder stirred into it to soothe her
digestive system. Then, begin again with small meals of *unenhanced* 1/3
chicken breast pieces. Gradually feed the other parts of the chicken,
leaving out the liver. (chop up and freeze for later use) You can add the
gizzards and hearts to the bony drum for a meatier meal. I recommend that
you trim all the visible fat from her meals.

Wait until you have NO diarrhea, then start adding one other protein - bits
of beef, or lean pork, or rabbit. Increase the new protein and decrease the
chicken until you are feeding all new protein. When you have NO digestive
upsets on the new protein, add another.

Once you have added several new proteins, with NO digestive upset, then you
can start to toss in a teensy bit of liver once every day or so, at ONE
meal. 3-5% of 40.32 ounces (5.76 oz x 7 days) = 1.2096/2.016 a week - but
you need to feed to bowel TOLERANCE, your dog will tell you when you have
exceeded it, if you pay attention. There's plenty of time to add other
organs. You will have the rest of her long life to feed more variety. GO
SLOW.

80% MEAT (muscle, skin, fat, connective tissues, fur, feathers and heart,
gizzards, tongue) 32.256 oz a week, plus 10% for the organ you aren't
feeding yet - 4.032 = 36.288

10% EDIBLE bone (4.032 a week is not a lot!) This can be more than satisfied
for a little dog by just eating the soft white gristle/cartilage and a bit
of the soft bone ends.

Later, as you add in liver and other organs - 3-5% liver 5-7% 'other'
organs, decrease the amount of meatymeat you feed.

HTH
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On Nov 14, 2007 10:46 AM, totaly_his <totaly_his@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Well, I am in week 5 of raw feeding my 6 year old Jack Russell. I have
> studied the archives but
> still need assistance. My girl has had chicken, beef, and a few organs. I
> give her a heart,
> gizzard or liver maybe once a week and only 2 pieces. It seems that for
> the most part, my
> dog almost always has loose stools and it smells horrible.
>

> <snip>
>

> Please instruct me on what changes I need to make. I
> really am trying to make this easy and simple but right now....it's
> everything BUT that.
> Jackie
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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11a. Would like to start feeding raw diet
Posted by: "stark_rain24" stark_rain24@hotmail.com stark_rain24
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:06 am ((PST))

Hello all,
I have been doing some research on feeding raw, and would really like to start doing it.
However, I'm having some problems getting the details figured out.
Just in case my location would help, I'm in the Dallas, TX area.

Here are my questions:
1. I live in a small condo and don't have the funds or space to get a freezer. Is it still
possible to raw feed fairly inexpensively, if I'm not able to buy in bulk?
2. How much do you typically pay per month for raw feeding? I'm feeding Timberwolf right
now, which for my dog, who is a 50 lbs, is about $25 or a little more per month.
3. Would a place like Kroger's have things like organs, or should I find a more private, old
school grocery store? I've read on certain websites that prepackaged raw chicken from the
meat aisle is not good to feed. Should I ask the meat people behind the counter for meat
and organs instead? And what's the difference between the prepackaged stuff vs. fresh cuts?
Just the bone and organ content?

Thanks for your help in advance.
This message board is really great bc it would be almost impossible for me to get the
initiative to change over without support and info.

Messages in this topic (2)
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11b. Re: Would like to start feeding raw diet
Posted by: "Joni" naturalbeautyandnutrition@yahoo.com naturalbeautyandnutrition
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:16 am ((PST))

And what's the difference between the prepackaged stuff vs. fresh
cuts?
> Just the bone and organ content?

I have done a lot of research on health and found pre-packaged meat are
filled with gases. The process involves removing regular air from meat
packages and replacing it with specific blends of gases, including
carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, oxygen and nitrogen. The objective is
to control and "enhance" the natural color changes that freshly cut
meats undergo as they're exposed to regular air.

Walmart starting this trend in 2001. Before that they had butchers in
the back cutting the meat up fresh. Now other stores are following this
trend. So most stores don't have a butcher any longer in the back. All
the meat comes to the store pre-packaged ahead of time with these gases.

Organic is limited in what is put into the pre-packaged meat but all
natural can have the gases etc.

Hope this helps,
Joni

Messages in this topic (2)
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12a. Re: Um, Brains?
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:14 am ((PST))

In a message dated 11/14/2007 4:58:13 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jcraver1@nc.rr.com writes:

Do you guys feed brains?

Jen,

i feed brains every chance i get.. unfortunately about the only time i get
the chance is when i buy lamb heads or pork heads at the local hispanic grocery
store. An entire 40 or 60 lb. case of brains has never made itself available
to me so i've never bought it, but i would, and i would be very happy to feed
it to the dogs.

i would say that you're probably being a sissy, but we all were in the
beginning.. my hubby still is. so i don't tell him what is in the bags he's feeding
to the dogs, i just thaw it and say "the wolf chow is thawed, please feed the
dogs".

Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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13. 15 wk old puppy
Posted by: "Janice Aquino" janiceaquino@comcast.net jaquino1792
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:56 am ((PST))

I have puppy who looks like she has soft pastern/metacarpus area.
She's 14 weeks old and the other littermates are better in this area.
Could the reason be diet or exercise? She gets raw and cooked meals.
I am having her levels taken to check on how she is processing her food
also her urine is sticky and she drinks a good deal of water, we will
checking her for diabetes.

Any idea's are greatly appreciated.
Janice

Messages in this topic (1)
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