[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12284

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Cutting up whole turkeys
From: costrowski75
1b. Re: Cutting up whole turkeys
From: Yasuko herron

2a. Re: Knife recommendations?
From: costrowski75
2b. Re: Knife recommendations?
From: Anntiga@aol.com
2c. Re: Knife recommendations?
From: Yasuko herron
2d. Re: Knife recommendations?
From: costrowski75

3a. Re: 15 wk old puppy
From: Sandee Lee

4a. Re: vet
From: woofwoofgrrl

5a. After chicken, what's next?
From: costrowski75
5b. Re: After chicken, what's next?
From: Bumble1994@aol.com

6a. Re: 15wk old puppy
From: Sandee Lee

7a. Re: What Am I Doing Wrong?
From: Giselle

8a. Re: Dehydrated liver versus fresh
From: ychinook

9a. Is This the "Right" Chicken?
From: totaly_his
9b. Re: Is This the "Right" Chicken?
From: Sandee Lee
9c. Re: Is This the "Right" Chicken?
From: totaly_his

10.1. Re: Chicken Backs
From: Michelle Sharpe
10.2. Re: Chicken Backs
From: Michelle Sharpe
10.3. Re: Chicken Backs
From: Sandee Lee
10.4. Re: Chicken Backs
From: chandler_baby
10.5. Re: Chicken Backs
From: carnesbill

11a. Re: They won't eat chicken
From: linda
11b. Re: They won't eat chicken
From: carnesbill

12. Fish oil with raw meats?
From: addicted 2 my pc

13. Small bones in rectum
From: junmollmom

Messages
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1a. Re: Cutting up whole turkeys
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:10 pm ((PST))

"jenvandecar" <jenvandecar@...> wrote:
>I was wondering how difficult it is to cut up a turkey
> into at least quarters.
*****
I highly recommend having the Meat Dude halve and quarter it if at all
possible! At the very least ask to have the turkey cut in half: the
quartering is not nearly as difficult as the slicing lengthwise through
spine and breastbone.

When I have to do the cutting, I use a small hacksaw, garden pruning
shears, my ever-present EMT scissors, sometimes the cleaver...and a lot
of elbow grease. It's certainly doable, but it's a PITA.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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1b. Re: Cutting up whole turkeys
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:35 pm ((PST))

>The shiba's get the smaller bones, ribs, breast....

Hi,I have corgi 2 year old weighing 34lb but she has no problems with Turkey bone and,she eats leg,wing,rib,tail,neck etc etc

Is your Shiba inu puppy?? If not,you can try feeding other area's bone too to see if they can handle.

This week,I go get awhole Turkey due stock is low,but my dog really loves Turkey.
1 Turkey would last quite long for her:-P

And this Saturday,my dad will visit me in VA from Japan,and since he said he likes to try Turkey so,I going to cook it for the first time!

I live here 5 years but since my husband hates Turkey,I never cooked it before nor tasted except Ground Turkey..

Wish me luck!

My palette will have leftover goat leg meal from last Halloween and she gets big meal dinner on thanksgiving.

yassy

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (6)
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2a. Re: Knife recommendations?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:17 pm ((PST))

"jastymd" <jaysboy@...> wrote:
>> My question is I started to by whole chickens and turkeys and
wondered
> if others had suggestions on the best knives or way to "wack" them up
> with?
*****
I don't think knives whack well at all. I use kitchen shears on whole
birds and the deed is done in two or three minutes. My preference is
EMT scissors since they're cheap and made tough to cut through worse
stuff than chicken skin and bones; but plain old kitchen shears are
fine.

I cut the bird in half lengthwise, then quarter each half. Whatever
other cuts need to be made, the shears are up to the task.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (9)
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2b. Re: Knife recommendations?
Posted by: "Anntiga@aol.com" Anntiga@aol.com anntiga
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:35 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 11/15/2007 3:18:26 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
Chriso75@AOL.COM writes:

EMT scissors

And where is the best place to purchase them?

thanks,
Ann
Norman
San Francisco Peninsula, CA, USA

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
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2c. Re: Knife recommendations?
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:35 pm ((PST))

Hi.Back when I was trying to find good cleaver,I asked recomended cleaver on this list,so,if you search cleaver then,you may get to read replies that I got months ago.

yassy

---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
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2d. Re: Knife recommendations?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:01 pm ((PST))

Anntiga@... wrote:
> EMT scissors
>
>
> And where is the best place to purchase them?
*****
Best? Probably the internet. Just google EMT scissors.
This site has them for $3.50
http://www.disasternecessities.com/site/542519/product/MF%20S100

This one has large and small sizes
http://www.safetycentral.com/emtshearbans.html

This one's got larges for $3.95 each or $42/dozen
http://www.safetystore.com/Scissors_209.htm

There are plenty more sources to check out.

I usually buy them from the Scissors Lady who covers the county fair
circuit each summer.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (9)
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3a. Re: 15 wk old puppy
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:25 pm ((PST))

Hi Janice,

Don't let the vets get you down. You *are* feeding dog food! :))
Seriously, vets are not nutritionists, don't have a clue and I wouldn't even
bother to tell a vet what I feed unless absolutely necessary. You may or
may not get support even with a holistic vet. Generally they will recommend
a bunch of veggies and supplements because your dog couldn't possibly get
all of the nutrients she needs from raw! HA!!!! Nothing could be farther
from the truth.

Follow nature's plan and feed accordingly....lots of meat, a little bone and
organs. That does mean changing your diet. Dump everything other than the
meat, bones and organs! :)) Stick around here and take advantage of all
the tricks we have learned to get those picky dogs eating raw also.

Sounds like the exercise is perfect for a puppy.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Janice Aquino" <janiceaquino@comcast.net>

Here is her diet;
She's getting a home based diet. A combined meat, 1 raw meal a day
and 2 cooked meals, of mixed or one of the following meats per day,
lamb, duck, chicken, goat, beef, sometimes egg scrambled. 80% meat,
5% organ 5% bone, she gets green tripe almost every meal mixed with
her food, 10% grain and veggies mix, grain/brown rice sticky rice
combo, very small portion of mix with sweet potato & yucca, carrots,
peas or other veggies & legumes. She also gets vitamin, E and
biotin mixed with 1 meal a day, sometimes fish oil for omega 3 & 6
amnt). She can get cottage cheese, and other cheeses for snacks.

Messages in this topic (13)
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4a. Re: vet
Posted by: "woofwoofgrrl" cmc4lists1@gastrounit.com woofwoofgrrl
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:35 pm ((PST))

The silly, or maybe ironic, thing about this is that when I did feed
kibble my vets had never heard of any of the brands I fed! I could have
made up a name and said "it's a high end all natural organic kibble
recommended by xxxx" and they would have said "Okay, you've done your
homework" and moved on!

Christine

Janice Aquino wrote:
>
>
> Raw Feeding for dogs and cats!my vet then asked me specifically what
> kind of kibble. She was livid when I told her from my kitchen/freezer.
> ..she was livid....
> I think I too will just pick a kibble next time/maybe
> Precise----precisely raw.
> Janice

Messages in this topic (3)
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5a. After chicken, what's next?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:37 pm ((PST))

Sandra Maclean <sandymac0930@...> wrote:
>
> I don't mean to jump in the middle but I have the same concern. My
5mo Cornish Rex kitten has been on Nature's Variety Chicken
medallions since Sat night 11/10). Would I follow the same program
too? i.e. still keep him on chicken then introduce lamb, or rabbit?
How long should I keep him on the chicken?
*****
I have a brand new 12 week old kitten (although I suspect he might be
somewhat younger than that). He was kibblefed til I got him last
Saturday; I started him Saturday night on deeply ribboned chicken
breast and moved quickly to ribboned thigh meat, then heart and
gizzard, then to ribboned pork, then to smashed chicken neck, then to
smashed quail. This morning I gave him a hardly-snipped chunk of
pork and he was able to slice into it himself. This is in less than
one week. He continues to be a perfectly wonderful annoying pain in
the butt, with no digestive issues of note.

Based on my other cat's reaction to feedlot beef, I will try lamb and
rabbit next, only because I have some handy. That's about as much
planning as I've done.

I think you should get on with it. I'd ditch the medallions or
reduce their presence and introduce whatever meats you want to try.
Just make them easy introductions. There's no plan other than what
works for your kitten. And you can't find THAT out til you try.

So try.

Still drinks a lot of water and I scoop about 6-7 urine scoops/day.
I've called the vet to ask about this, I'm hoping it's just normal
for him? He's been like this since I was adopted by him 2 months ago
at 11 1/2 weeks.
*****
Have you checked for a UTI? That would be my first
consideration, 'twere me.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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5b. Re: After chicken, what's next?
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:58 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 11/15/2007 6:04:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, "Andrea"
writes:

I just give them a big chunk of food (put half a chicken down) and let them
go at it.
Every once in a while I might notice one of them getting bigger than
I would like, so I will make an effort to take them away from the
food when they have had enough

****
Hehehe! Under the influence of the dog feeders (you are much more
interesting over here!), I've been trying to do whole big food with my 3 cats--think
cornish hen in the bathtub. The first time I did this, tough man Dennis The
Menace seized the hen by the back and let out such blood curdling snarls that
Precious crouched down a foot away and just stared at that hen. Silver sat
outside the bathtub and looked in, utterly intimidated.

The second try, I let one cat have at it by itself, first being Precious,
who wanted it so badly she couldn't stand herself, but she simply couldn't
figure how to eat the thing, being used to 2-3 oz chunks. I let her try for 20
min., and figured she'd done enough to it to be fed. Took her out and let Silver
in. He got right to it and made a good dent in 20 min., and also no
objections to being separated from the hen and put in another room. Dennis again
seized the hen and snarled and started eating it like a wild thing. After 20 min.
there was about half the hen left--and that meant the 3 of them got a pound
of it, mostly Dennis but a good bit to Silver. Dennis would not let me have
his hen! He snarled at me and hung on for dear life. Lifted him up and tried
to pull the hen away, and simply couldn't. I had to choke him a little bit to
make him open his mouth so I could steal his prey, and it made him royally
mad at me! But all 3 cats were very well fed looking and happy, afterwards.

I'm not sure we're going to do this again. :)

Lynda

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

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Messages in this topic (7)
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6a. Re: 15wk old puppy
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:25 pm ((PST))

BTW, puppies need lots and lots of protein to grow strong muscles and other
tissues, healthy immune system, etc. You just about cannot feed too much
meat to a growing puppy.

What dogs don't need is carbohydrates. Guess the vets have forgotten what
it states in Merck Veterinary Manual...

"The carbohydrates added to pet foods are mainly in the form of
polysaccharides (starch and cellulose), disaccharides (sucrose and lactose),
and monosaccharides (glucose and fructose). Carbohydrates are a less
expensive source of energy than fat or protein. In dogs, there appears to be
no dietary requirement for carbohydrate."

The pet food manufacturers recognize that little fact also.....Waltham Book
of Dog and Cat Nutrition 2nd Edition (1988)

"There is no known minimum dietary carbohydrate requirement for either the
dog or the cat. Based on investigations in the dog and with other species it
is likely that dogs and cats can be maintained without carbohydrates if the
diet supplies enough fat or protein from which the metabolic requirement for
glucose is derived."

So you can see your vet has it all wrong! :))

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Janice Aquino" <janiceaquino@comcast.net>

They state I am feeding too much meat,
I need a load of grains and veggies in my diet/according to the vet.

Messages in this topic (13)
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7a. Re: What Am I Doing Wrong?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 4:26 pm ((PST))

Hi, Jackie!
I use it loose and would put 1/2 tsp into about 8 ounces, so
if you have a measuring spoon, you could do that. Or, just eyeball it. Less
is better than more, if your dog is at all fussy about 'new stuff'. If you
use about an ounce of broth at first and stir the SEBP into a paste with a
fork, that makes it less lumpy.
You could also mix some SEBP into some ground meat, like a tiny little
meatball, if she hates it in the broth and won't drink it. Its more
important that she drink the broth, than drink it with the SEBP in it.
TC
Giselle

On Nov 15, 2007 2:13 PM, totaly_his <totaly_his@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Giselle, I have the Slippery Elm Bark capsules. Do I open one up and
> use the whole capsule with the broth? Is one capsule all I use? How
> often? Thanks for your help and I will try what you have suggested.
> Jackie
>
>

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Messages in this topic (8)
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8a. Re: Dehydrated liver versus fresh
Posted by: "ychinook" chinook.nr@tds.net ychinook
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:38 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Anna Labriola" <taggartgalt@...>
wrote:
>
> Hello, everyone.
>
> Question: Should I cut back on fresh liver if I'm using dehydrated
> liver for training treats? I'm trying to use small bits, but I'm
> concerned about overdosing.
>
> Thanks,
> Anna and Khan
>

Sometime back I asked a similar question and don't remember any
answers. I have in the meantime continued to try to find any
definitive answers without much success (probably right under my nose
:-) What I have found are claims by various suppliers that their
special dehydration process retains up to yada (80%, 90%, whatever,
depending on the supplier claims) of the nutrients. My supplier
doesn't make any such claims, but does obtain the meats to be
dehydrated from Mennonites and Amish in the Finger Lakes region which
I think is important.

Anyway, in the face of no better info, I make a combined WAG of what a
chicken liver would dehydrate to (same horizontal size but an 1/8 to
3/16 inches thick) and that perhaps 60% to 70% of the nutrients are
preserved. I'm probably on the high side (for safety), but based on
such I limit such liver treats to two or three small pieces a day for
a dog that will eat a 3 to 4 lb chicken a day with the chicken's liver.

That isn't much and flies in the face of what some trainers seem to
use, but I would rather play it safe. The supplier I use also has
dehydrated rabbit which I have started using much more for treats so I
don't have to rely on any WAGs :-)

Not a lot of help I know, but maybe it will spur someone to come up
with a more definitive answer.

Best to you and yours,
Lee, Karen, Buddy Bear and Holly

Messages in this topic (3)
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9a. Is This the "Right" Chicken?
Posted by: "totaly_his" totaly_his@yahoo.com totaly_his
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:50 pm ((PST))

I have been feeding my girl Tyson 100% All Natural chicken. It says on
the package that it contains up to 12% natural chicken broth and that
the chicken was raised w/o antibiotics, no hormones and no artificial
ingredients. Is the broth they are talking about one of the additives
that I need to stay clear of because of tummy upset? I buy this at my
local supermarket. Thanks, Jackie

Messages in this topic (3)
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9b. Re: Is This the "Right" Chicken?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:23 pm ((PST))

*Somewhere* on that package, it should list the ingredients of the "natural
chicken broth".

I looked at a turkey today which said it was injected with 8% chicken broth.
It took a while before I found the fine print, but the ingredients included
turkey broth, salt, sodium phosphates, sugar and flavorings.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "totaly_his" <totaly_his@yahoo.com>

I have been feeding my girl Tyson 100% All Natural chicken. It says on
the package that it contains up to 12% natural chicken broth and that
the chicken was raised w/o antibiotics, no hormones and no artificial
ingredients. Is the broth they are talking about one of the additives
that I need to stay clear of because of tummy upset? I buy this at my
local supermarket. Thanks, Jackie

Messages in this topic (3)
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9c. Re: Is This the "Right" Chicken?
Posted by: "totaly_his" totaly_his@yahoo.com totaly_his
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:18 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> *Somewhere* on that package, it should list the ingredients of the "natural
> chicken broth".

Sandee, The back of the package says that the chicken broth ingredients are chicken
broth,sea salt, and natural flavor. Would any of those be considered cause for concern?
Thanks Jackie

Messages in this topic (3)
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10.1. Re: Chicken Backs
Posted by: "Michelle Sharpe" michelledearden@mac.com michelledearden
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:55 pm ((PST))

What is every ones views on chicken necks? Do they have the same
meat bone ratio?

Michelle Sharpe

On 15-Nov-07, at 3:04 PM, costrowski75 wrote:

> Alexandra de Guzman <degoonacoon@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi- I buy backs very inexpensively. And they love them!!
> *****
> That your dogs "love" chicken backs--or anything else--is often not
> relevant to the value of the food they "love". My dogs loved kibble.
> My dogs loved the cheap and nasty kibble as much as they loved the
> expensive and politically correct kibble.
>
> While there's no question that chicken backs are healthier than any
> kibble anywhere, they still are terribly bony (or, conversely, missing
> most of their meat). They are not set up to deliver optimal nutrition,
> regardless of how fond your dogs are of them.
>
> Chris O
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (50)
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10.2. Re: Chicken Backs
Posted by: "Michelle Sharpe" michelledearden@mac.com michelledearden
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:02 pm ((PST))

sorry, I meant that do the necks have the same meat bone ratio as the
backs,

Michelle

On 15-Nov-07, at 5:52 PM, Michelle Sharpe wrote:

> What is every ones views on chicken necks? Do they have the same
> meat bone ratio?
>
> Michelle Sharpe
>
> On 15-Nov-07, at 3:04 PM, costrowski75 wrote:
>
> > Alexandra de Guzman <degoonacoon@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi- I buy backs very inexpensively. And they love them!!
> > *****
> > That your dogs "love" chicken backs--or anything else--is often not
> > relevant to the value of the food they "love". My dogs loved kibble.
> > My dogs loved the cheap and nasty kibble as much as they loved the
> > expensive and politically correct kibble.
> >
> > While there's no question that chicken backs are healthier than any
> > kibble anywhere, they still are terribly bony (or, conversely,
> missing
> > most of their meat). They are not set up to deliver optimal
> nutrition,
> > regardless of how fond your dogs are of them.
> >
> > Chris O
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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10.3. Re: Chicken Backs
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:19 pm ((PST))

They are a little lower in bone content, but still far too bony (and too
small).

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Michelle Sharpe" <michelledearden@mac.com>

> sorry, I meant that do the necks have the same meat bone ratio as the
> backs,

Messages in this topic (50)
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10.4. Re: Chicken Backs
Posted by: "chandler_baby" chandler_baby@yahoo.com chandler_baby
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:27 pm ((PST))

> $10 for a 40# case. Thats $.25/lb. :) :) :) I've been paying that
> same price for over 3 years now.
>
Holy Moly Bill! I've not bought backs in about 3 years, I was getting
more fat than anything else and I got tired of that. Anyway, the last
case I bought was $.79 per pound! I just could not pay that much for
something that didn't have meat on it. I now feed mostly pork bone.
Roxane

Messages in this topic (50)
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10.5. Re: Chicken Backs
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:20 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Michelle Sharpe
<michelledearden@...> wrote:
>
> sorry, I meant that do the necks have the same meat bone ratio
> as the backs,

Chicken necks are 36% bone, backs are 44% bone.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

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11a. Re: They won't eat chicken
Posted by: "linda" mrsmenk@starpower.net mrsmenk
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:17 pm ((PST))

I hoped I trimmed this right - it's my first reply.

Thanks Bill for your response.

Right now I only feed the dogs in the evening. Should I offer them the
chicken again in the morning or wait until the evening feeding time?

Linda in VA

Luke & Lucy

> I hate to make them go
> hungry so I would love another solution. Thanks

There is not magic bullet. Be tough. You don't "make them go
hungry", they choose to go hungry. You offer them food (chicken in
this case) and they choose whether or not to eat it. It is them
deciding to go hungry.

Bill Carnes
<http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm>
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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11b. Re: They won't eat chicken
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:20 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "linda" <mrsmenk@...> wrote:
>
> Right now I only feed the dogs in the evening. Should I
> offer them the chicken again in the morning or wait until
> the evening feeding time?

Wait until the evening feeding time.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (6)
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12. Fish oil with raw meats?
Posted by: "addicted 2 my pc" mmoy1191@tpg.com.au jmoylan1952
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:27 pm ((PST))

hi i give my two dogs one fish oil tab every night with their raw food, was wondering
is one tab enough? on account humans can have up to 12 a day?
Jen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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13. Small bones in rectum
Posted by: "junmollmom" junmollmom@yahoo.com junmollmom
Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:19 pm ((PST))

MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE SIGN YOUR MESSAGES

Hi, I am new here and have a question.
Our mini dachshunds have been on raw diet about a year and half.
Never had an issues until two nights ago. One of our dogs, Molly
cried when touched around stomach area. No vomiting, had an appetite,
pooped and peed fine. Our new vet( since just last week)took out one
small bone from her bottom and x-ray showed a few smaller ones still
in the end of the rectum. She was sent home with probiotic and the vet
recommended to feed her cooked food for a while. I gave samll amount
of cooked chicken brest and rice. She has not pooped since yesterday
and she is still sore and uncomfortable. Do you think I can give her
premade raw now? I feel funny about feeding cooked meat just becuase
she had an issue with bones this time. I'd appreciate your opinions.
Thank you so much.

Messages in this topic (1)
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