[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12303

There are 15 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Question About Feeding High Food Drive Puppy
From: carnesbill

2a. Re: Where can I find green tripe?
From: carnesbill

3a. Re: Chicken Backs in WI or Twin Cities area????
From: carnesbill
3b. Re: Chicken Backs in WI or Twin Cities area????
From: chandler_baby
3c. Re: Chicken Backs in WI or Twin Cities area????
From: Morledzep@aol.com

4a. Re: certain meats cause panting
From: shefy gupta

5a. Re: Deer carcases
From: jmwise80

6.1. Re: Feeding Pork/puppies
From: Laurie Swanson

7a. Re: Chinese Crested gulper
From: Laurie Swanson

8.1. Re: Introduction
From: Giselle

9a. Re: TREATS for a new raw puppy
From: Giselle

10. Advice please-2 days on raw with variety of stools...
From: Eddie Scholten

11a. Re: anyone feeding raccoon? any problems or reasons not to?
From: Morledzep@aol.com

12. It's Thanksgiving ..
From: URSULA

13. Giselle, toy dogs, toothless, was; my introduction
From: Michelle R

Messages
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1a. Re: Question About Feeding High Food Drive Puppy
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:53 pm ((PST))

A few thoughts here. First dogs don't chew like humans. We chew
our food to a mush then swallow it. Dogs merely rip/tear of a chunk
of meat that will fit down their throat and swallow it. They do not
waste time or energy chewing something that can be swallowed. This
is normal and not dangerous. They are capable of swallowing
amazingly large pieces of meat/bone.

I wonder if what you are seeing is normal dog eating and since it is
not as "manerly" as human eating, you are mistaking it as something
that should not be done. "Almost choking" is not the same
as "choking" To me, "almost choking" means swallowing something so
large that a human could not possibly swallow. This would be normal
for a dog.

If he is swallowing fine, acting healthy, full of energy, pooping on
some kind of semi regular schedule, I wouldn't worry. It's not
unusual for a dog (particularly a newly switched dog) to
occasionally swallow a piece that is too large, bring it back up,
chew it some and re-swallow it. This too can appear to be choking
but it is normal.

I honestly don't think your dog has a problem. I suggest you give
your pup his food, stand back out of the way, don't hover, and let
him eat. You hovering around and sometimes trying to take food away
may be exacerabing your problem.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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2a. Re: Where can I find green tripe?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:02 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "geraldinebutterfield"
<gbutterflied@...> wrote:
>
> I live in Albany, Or. and have called the grocery stores and
> butchers and can't locate green tripe!

It's illegal to have green tripe in the same building as human
consumable food so you won't find it in any place that sells human
food. I know there are places on the internet you can get it and also
slaughterhouses. Personally I don't feed it so I can't really help
you with sources.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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3a. Re: Chicken Backs in WI or Twin Cities area????
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:08 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "windmilldairy" <drwindmill@...>
wrote:
>
> I have posted in the past with questions about chicken backs
> and have been trying to locate a
> source to buy them in bulk cases in WI or the Twin
> Cities area....Any help would be
> appreciated.

I have always had good luck at small independent grocery stores, NOT
the chain stores. Go to the store and talk to them in person.
Don't bother calling. You must be in the store. Explain to them
that you will be buying them regularly. It's not a one time thing.
Explain they can just add your case of backs to their regular order
and tell you when to pick them up and you'll be there. They won't
have to unpack or wrap or anything. Just hold in the cooler until
you get there that day. It's good easy money for them and most
small stores will be glad to help you once they understand how
little work it is for them.

Don't bother with the chain stores. They just aren't set up for
orders like that. They have no way to hanle them.

I also order turkey necks, turkey wings and beef heart at the same
store. You can order most any animal parts this way. I can even
order whole lamb from my grocer but I haven't yet.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (6)
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3b. Re: Chicken Backs in WI or Twin Cities area????
Posted by: "chandler_baby" chandler_baby@yahoo.com chandler_baby
Date: Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:09 pm ((PST))

Hi Pat,

In the St Paul area I would check in the Asian grocery stories down on
and near University, in the state capital area.

I'm not sure you really want chicken backs but I think you should be
able to find some good things down there.

Also, the Wedge in Minneapolis should have what you are looking for,
their chickens are free range.

Roxane

> I have posted in the past with questions about chicken backs and have
been trying to locate a
> source to buy them in bulk cases in WI or the Twin Cities area....Any
help would be
> appreciated.

Messages in this topic (6)
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3c. Re: Chicken Backs in WI or Twin Cities area????
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Thu Nov 22, 2007 1:07 am ((PST))

In a message dated 11/21/2007 7:20:14 PM Pacific Standard Time,
drwindmill@gmail.com writes:

I have posted in the past with questions about chicken backs and have been
trying to locate a
source to buy them in bulk cases in WI or the Twin Cities area....Any help
would be
appreciated.

Pat,

why do you want chicken backs? whole chickens are cheap and easy to find and
far more appropriate. and i might add, easily whacked into meal sized
pieces.

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (6)
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4a. Re: certain meats cause panting
Posted by: "shefy gupta" shefy7@yahoo.com shefy7
Date: Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:09 pm ((PST))

wow that's interesting...

i know there are certain "hot" and "cold" foods...it would be nice to get more info. if anyone knows about this issue...?

snowy sometimes pants after eating as well...i've never taken notice as to after what though..

shefy and snowy

spricketysprock <jess.hamway@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't know what's causing this, but logic would say to simply stop
feeding your dogs pork. With enough variety, pork isn't a necessity at
all.

Jess & Toby

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Felicia Kost wrote:
>
> I was wondering if ceratin foods, such as pork would make a dog hot
and panting. My dogs have been raw fed for almost a year now. Every
time I feed a pork shoulder the dogs pant all night long.

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.
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Messages in this topic (4)
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5a. Re: Deer carcases
Posted by: "jmwise80" jmwise80@yahoo.com jmwise80
Date: Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:10 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Pug Lady" <showpugs@...> wrote:
>
> A man that processes deer is giving me two deer (spine and ribs with
> quite a bit of meat still attached) but g do not know how to feed
> these big things! I have three pugs and a weim. Can i just give them
> the entire thing in the back yard? Thanks in advance!
> rebeca
>
> --
> Rebeca and The Pugs
> www.DoolittleAcres.com
>

*****If they don't have food aggression problems then that sounds like
a great idea. My jack russell has been working on a deer spine for a
few days now. I give him the whole thing and then take it away when I
think he has had enough. Good find!

Michael Wise

Messages in this topic (2)
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6.1. Re: Feeding Pork/puppies
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:28 pm ((PST))

Hi Ceasar and Yassy,

Yassy, I think you're thinking of the calculation sometimes used with
puppies which is 10% of current weight at a certain age. It's easier
to just always feed about 2-3% of estimated adult weight, but there may
be times when they need more or less. Just watch their weight.
Puppies are usually fed 3-4 times a day when really young, decreasing
the number of feedings when they seem ready to digest more food at one
time, until they're getting fed about once a day at around a year old.
But some people feed adults 2 times a day, and some feed every other
day or so. Caesar, you can search the archives for puppy info, or let
us know if you have more questions.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Yasuko herron
<sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
>
> >Obviously, the Boxer is still growing. Currently weighs about 60lbs.
Should i be feeding it the"regular" 3% of its weight or should i be
feeding a bit more since its still growing and gradually increase as
its weight increases?
>
> Hi,Ceasar.If I remember right,puppy gets fed 10% of adult estimated
weight and fed 3 times orso throughout the day.
>
> and for adult dog,they gets fed 2-3% of ideal weight 1-2 times a
day.
>

Messages in this topic (44)
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7a. Re: Chinese Crested gulper
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:28 pm ((PST))

With these types of eaters, you need to feed bigger hunks. Like a
chicken quarter or a lamb shank or a big hunk of pork neck with a bit
of boneless meat, or something. If that's too big for one meal, let
him eat some and then take it up and feed the remainder for the next
meal. Having the food presented more in its original form, in a bigger
hunk, will make him take his time and work on it a bit more. If you
need to feed a piece of boneless meat that is just about
gulping/choking size, then you might want to cut it up into smaller
pieces. Beef ribs can be good for dental hygiene/workout even tho he
can't eat the bone. Keep your eyes open for goat or lamb or pork or
rabbit or turkey, too.

Laurie

Messages in this topic (4)
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8.1. Re: Introduction
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:18 pm ((PST))

Hi, Michelle!
You don't need a grinder, nope, not at all!

Grinding up bone and serving up ground or diced up meats does a disservice
to your dogs. Even if they are tiny, or have missing teeth or misaligned
bites, they can learn how to crunch and munch quite large meaty parts and
softer bones. Some of the marvelous advantages of species appropriate raw
feeding is not just the improved inner health, outer appearance, sweet
breath and smaller and less frequent poops. Prey model raw fed dogs get
mental, dental, physical and emotional benefits from engaging with, and
conquering, complicated food.

There's a large number of members with small and toy breeds and dogs with
physical anomalies that challenge proper canine eating. I'm sure that many
will weigh in here with their tips and experiences.

Because prey model raw suggests feeding approximately 80% meat (muscle,
skin, fat, fur, feathers, connective tissues and hard working organs such as
heart, gizzards, tongue, tripe)
and only 10% EDIBLE bone, its not too hard to provide enough bone that the
little guys can manage. With their small size, even the gristle/cartilage
from the bone ends of lamb, goat and pork can provide that easily. And the
soft bones of chicken, rabbits and fish can be entirely consumed.

Dogs don't need yogurt, or any dairy. Once weaned, dogs usually become
lactose intolerant. And cow's, or even goat's milk isn't species
appropriate. ; )

Its better to think about, and plan for, feeding some meaty parts with a
little edible bone, and lots of meatymeat meals with no bone, rather than
feeding bony parts, like turkey necks - or the 'RMB'- which aren't. Meaty, I
mean.

The usual suggestion is to feed about 2-3% of the dog's estimated ideal
adult body weight. But tiny dogs usually need more, often 4-5% of EIABW or
even more, if they are very active.

Start with whole chickens. This will get you started;

*http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374 *

*post # 141374*

A few archived posts from owners of toy breeds;
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/msearch?query=chihuahua+papillon&submit=Search&charset=UTF-8
*http://tinyurl.com/3e5ywe*

Some links to informational websites;

http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html

http://www.rawlearning.com/supplementmyths.html

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes

http://rawfeddogs.net/FAQlist
Happy Turkey Day!
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On Nov 21, 2007 8:26 PM, Michelle Radcliff <crested_dog8@yahoo.com> wrote:

> MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS!!
>
> Hello, I am new here. A friend of mine has introduced me to the
> benefits of feeding raw. I have Chinese Cresteds, and have many
> things to learn about the particular of feeding this new stuff, but
> all my kids seem to think I've gone nuts and cant believe they get to
> eat this stuff every day. :-)
>

> <snip>
>

> Also, I know the amounts to
> feed vary per dog, type, activity, metabolism, etc and etc...but what
> is the general goal? I think I read somewhere a certain % of their
> ideal adult body weight?? What do some of you do? if the % is
> correct, what % do you folks suggest?
>
> Thanks much and I look forward to learning more from everyone willing
> to share!
> Happy Thanksgiving to everyone!
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (358)
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9a. Re: TREATS for a new raw puppy
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Nov 22, 2007 12:45 am ((PST))

Hi, Jay!
While my dog, Bea ( almost 7yo Newfy) is 'all raw' fed, and has
been since I rescued her at age 2, I use what ever treats that work for the
use at hand. Treats are a very small part of the diet, and if you need to
train a pup, or older dog, and use do use a larger amount of their daily
portion, you can make raw treats. I use a mix of raw, cooked and 'people
food' treats to make training fun and exciting.

Treats, even training treats for a large breed dog, need not be huge - the
treats Bea gets are mostly the size of a baby pea, and believe me, she loves
to get them!

I feed chopped raw and cooked heart and gizzards (roast or simmer in a
little water) and sometimes whiz up some heart or gizzards with liver, raw
or cooked and put the paste into a food tube. I also use dried salmon,
whiting or sardines sometimes. I use cheese shreds or cubes, diced hot dogs
('uncooked' or dried in the mic), canned chicken shreds, occasionally even
squeeze cheese.

I do avoid processed 'dog treats' - since the massive pet food recalls
earlier this year, and the ongoing recalls of even 'natural' treats from
China, I will not ever feed anything like this ever again. While I'm not
crazy about feeding grain products to dogs, I will sometimes use those
cheesy baked Goldfish snacks as training treats - they're tiny and Bea loves
them. Perhaps doling out a bag (or small plastic snack container) of these
or something similar to each of your children per day for them to treat the
pup with would work. I'd pass them out to each kid once a day, show them how
to ask pup to sit for a treat and let them treat the pup until their daily
portion is gone. That way, you have control over how much the pup gets, and
if the kids eat the treats themselves, well, no harm done! Older children
can join in with you when you train the pup and be trusted with other
treats, while you supervise.

BTW, you aren't planning to continue to feed Newfpup on just ground chicken
backs and tripe forever, are you?
Protein variety, edible bone, organs, and whole prey or large parts to
wrestle with are important to any dog's health. There's lots of info on this
list on feeding a raw species appropriate whole prey model diet - take a
look in the archives and files.
One to begin with;

*http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374 *

*post # 141374*

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

I need some help as to what are appropriate treats for an 8 week old
> Great Dane puppy already eating all raw? The breeder has him eating
> ground chicken backs and green tripe. Since this is my first dog going
> all raw I really don't know what to give him for treats.
>
> *<<<< What can I have on hand so my kids don't hand him any Oreo's? >>>>
> *
> Thank you
>
> Jay
>
>
>

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Messages in this topic (8)
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10. Advice please-2 days on raw with variety of stools...
Posted by: "Eddie Scholten" shirl-ed@hotmail.com shirley11964
Date: Thu Nov 22, 2007 1:07 am ((PST))

Hello everyone,

We started our (8wks old today) GR pup on raw when we got him home 2 days ago. He seems to really enjoy the chicken (leg quarters, bony breast sections (not with skin) and a whole, if very small, chicken heart (fed yesterday straight from the freezer and eaten in seconds). This morning he's had a small amount (approx 1tbs) of fresh liver and a bony breast section with a larger meatier meal of chicken planned for a little later. All seems well with our pup, Floris is his name, but his stools are varied and I just wanted to confirm that they appear normal considering the change of diet (breeder fed kibble).

First stools we saw on day 1 (after first raw meal) were runny and a mid-to-dark brown colour and extremely foul-smelling.
Later stools (evening) were more formed/soft, dark and very smelly again.

Day 2 (yesterday) morning stools were very runny and pale beige/brown coloured, then a few later stools were like chocolate sauce, again very smelly. One stool, last night, was again much more solid/soft and dark, and less smelly (approximately 30 hours into raw). Then later again, by only around 40mins another stool was very runny and almost clear/watery and very smelly.

Day 3 (today) morning stools were first like chocolate sauce but very much less smelly and a short while later (on the walk) the stools were very runny and a quite pale, almost greenish/brown colour.

I wondered if the extra bone I've been giving (bony breast section) had helped to firm the stools we've seen, but the almost immediately following runny stools are a little confusing.

Floris is drinking what seems to me to be an appropriate amount of water (obviously I don't know yet how much water he will take on average, but I'm happy with the amount he's taking right now) and is happy and content.

Any advice will be most welcome as there is some concern here (not with me) that if the stools don't become more 'normal' after a while, that we must stop with raw (and I really don't want to stop and I have explained that stools will always vary on a raw diet depending on what meat was eaten (as per a recent posting I read).

Thanks so much for all the advice so far...(and sorry if this is 'off topic' at all).

Shirley (and Floris in Holland) .

_________________________________________________________________
Nooit meer offline met Windows Live Messenger op je mobiele telefoon
http://www.getlivemobile.nl/

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11a. Re: anyone feeding raccoon? any problems or reasons not to?
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Thu Nov 22, 2007 1:07 am ((PST))

In a message dated 11/21/2007 11:00:46 AM Pacific Standard Time,
sktnurse@yahoo.com writes:

I may have a new source for skinned raccoons and dont know of any
reasons not to feed it. these will be wild hunted raccoons. would be
great if could feed, price is right. HA. what do yo think?

Sherry,

i won't feed raccoon, even if i could get it, to my dogs. Raccoons are
carnivores and i won't feed carnivores to carnivores.

Catherine R.

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12. It's Thanksgiving ..
Posted by: "URSULA" UCL@NEUF.FR ursula21c
Date: Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:43 am ((PST))

I want to say thank you for the expert, friendly advice shown in this
valuable group. I could not have survived the raw feeding without your
help. Through all the ups, downs and disasters, you have never failed
to help us through.
Merci mille fois
Ursula, Andrew,(husband), Henri (black lab), Cassis (black lab)
Salies de Bearn, France

Messages in this topic (1)
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13. Giselle, toy dogs, toothless, was; my introduction
Posted by: "Michelle R" crested_dog8@yahoo.com crested_dog8
Date: Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:03 am ((PST))

Giselle, WOW that is a wealth of information, thank you sooooo much!! My problem with my kids is not that they are small (they are small, but they eat like they weigh 150#s HA ha) but I have a few who simply have no teeth. The hairless Chinese Cresteds (older especially) quite often have poor dentition, its a genetic thing, hair and teeth are linked. I have one older hairless bitch who has about 5 teeth scattered thru out her mouth, thats it. Her bite is fine, she has a scissors bite, just nothing much in there to back it up. LOL So while she has no problem wolfing down any slices or cuts or ground offered, she has literally nothing to gnaw bone or tear meatymeat with. It is with specifically her in mind I bring up grinding, otherwise, she just will not get all of the nutritional benefits my more toothy Cresteds can from this diet.

Michelle Radcliff
Mengshi Chinese Cresteds
http://www.geocities.com/crested_dog8/mengshihome.html

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All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

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