[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12311

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. New to this group
From: Sai Simonson
1b. Re: New to this group
From: Sandee Lee

2.1. Re: Introduction
From: Cathy
2.2. Re: Introduction
From: Sandee Lee
2.3. Re: Introduction/ SANDEE
From: Cathy
2.4. Re: Introduction
From: carnesbill
2.5. Re: Introduction/ SANDEE
From: Sandee Lee
2.6. Re: Introduction/ SANDEE
From: Sandee Lee
2.7. Re: Introduction
From: costrowski75

3a. IN FRANCE: need advice
From: Michal Cline
3b. Re: IN FRANCE: need advice
From: Giselle

4a. Re: Bacteria and raw feeding.
From: Cathy

5a. Red Meats?
From: blue eyed
5b. Red Meats?
From: blue eyed
5c. Re: Red Meats?
From: Sandee Lee

6a. Planning for Raw Feeding
From: luvsfreedom3
6b. Re: Planning for Raw Feeding
From: Sandee Lee
6c. Re: Planning for Raw Feeding
From: carnesbill
6d. Re: Planning for Raw Feeding
From: luvsfreedom3
6e. Re: Planning for Raw Feeding
From: luvsfreedom3
6f. Re: Planning for Raw Feeding
From: Sandee Lee
6g. Re: Planning for Raw Feeding
From: carnesbill

7a. Preparing Quail
From: glamour.cupcakes
7b. Re: Preparing Quail
From: Casey Post

8a. Re: Newbie, question about hungry dog.
From: Giselle

Messages
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1a. New to this group
Posted by: "Sai Simonson" saiczarina@comcast.net keikokat
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:39 pm ((PST))

Hi,
My name is Sai.
I am on a few raw groups and this one seems to have a lot of ideas.
It was particularly interesting in the notes from Jane, the moderator,
that since dogs are ahem, tamed wolves which do not eat the whole prey
animal when life is good, then perhaps we do not need to get all worried
about supplements??

I have been feeding modified raw (one meal each day all raw, the other
gasp! kibble) for about 10 years to a total of 4 Borzoi and 4 cats. The
raw eating cats are no longer with me. The 2 current Borzoi have been
on total raw since July. I have done grinding of the raw chicken thighs
with addition of "Better in the Raw", but am now rethinking if
supplements are needed.

Basic diet is turkey necks for a morning snack. Toss em 3-4 chicken
thighs for dinner. Put a few chicken gizzards, hearts and liver in a
dish. The offer the after dinner beef knuckle bones. Have toyed with
rabbit until the supplier wanted to know if I wanted them dispatched or
not and I cowered.

There are plenty of live squirrels in the yard and tons of doves. We
did see one dove with only feathers remaining which made us wonder about
Tasha.

Sai Simonson in Oregon

--
*~~ SaiCzarina*

Messages in this topic (7)
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1b. Re: New to this group
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:42 pm ((PST))

Hi Sai,

When feeding a prey model there is generally not a need for supplements, but
that would mean you need to add some variety and red meat to your diet! :))
If you look at the natural diet of a carnivore, it consists mainly of large
ungulates....red meat, 80% meat, only about 10% edible bone and 10% organs.

Sounds like your dogs have adjusted to poultry just fine so time to begin
adding in variety in body parts, protein sources and lots more meat....pork,
beef, venison, fish, goat, lamb....whatever you can get your hands on!

Oh, and no need to grind...let them get the tooth/gum cleaning action they
require from chewing nice large chunks. Knuckle bones are not going to do
that and are known for breaking and wearing down teeth.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Sai Simonson" <saiczarina@comcast.net>
>
> I have been feeding modified raw (one meal each day all raw, the other
> gasp! kibble) for about 10 years to a total of 4 Borzoi and 4 cats. The
> raw eating cats are no longer with me. The 2 current Borzoi have been
> on total raw since July. I have done grinding of the raw chicken thighs
> with addition of "Better in the Raw", but am now rethinking if
> supplements are needed.
>
> Basic diet is turkey necks for a morning snack. Toss em 3-4 chicken
> thighs for dinner. Put a few chicken gizzards, hearts and liver in a
> dish. The offer the after dinner beef knuckle bones. Have toyed with
> rabbit until the supplier wanted to know if I wanted them dispatched or
> not and I cowered.

Messages in this topic (7)
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2.1. Re: Introduction
Posted by: "Cathy" batcathy@sbcglobal.net batcathy2002
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:39 pm ((PST))

Thankyou Bill & Chris both-
our typical diet consits of chicken backs+additional meat
pork neck + meat
chicken necks
chicken thigh
chicken leg
turkey neck
mackeral or tuna
frozen smelt- hot day
ground turkey every other day to off set bone with added yougart,dash of pumpkin
rabbit when available
we also get liver twice a week
beef heart sliced as a treat
to all of this i add eggs occasionally- small carrotts or green beans as a treat -as they like it
Only suppliment is fish oil & tad of olive oil ( Dinky gets digestive enzymes daily)
Now for Dinky- she was very small, almost died & i syringe fed her for 10 days.....she will eat fine for a few weeks and then start to cry ,hunch down and run to hide...refuses to eat and than ends up with runs..if it goes on for a couple days we get mucas tinged with blood.
Vet gives her flagyl & pancur for 10 days.........she improves and a month or so later same thing. I asked about coccidia- no / gardia-no ...
Vet had me take her off raw so I cooked chicken & rice- slight improvement also Vet ID- she didnt like it..........she refuses to eat while others have raw so i tried all on the best I could find- am not happy- Dogs not happy- always hungry...
I have put them all back to raw - starting with just chicken again for a week or so.
They dont do well on beef- all get runs - Lamb they threw up...so - where do I go from here?
She is under weight- coat is very dry & brittle....other wise healthy & playful.
Vet suggested I give her malox or equilivent before i feed her......she fights it!
I have tried to envision what they would eat in nature & as 10lb toys I can see why beef & large animal meat upsets them.
Does this help so we can tweak her?
Thanks- Cathy

C Richmond
Lesmar's CC
Battle Creek, Mi.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (368)
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2.2. Re: Introduction
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:16 pm ((PST))

Cathy,

Once you get past the chicken, I would add lots more red meat and skip the
veggies, pumpkin and yogurt especially for your gal with the digestive
issues. You want to avoid any kind of carbohydrates until you get this
under control. Drives me nuts when vets recommend rice and other high carb
foods for dogs with IBD symptoms. Not only are they hard to digest, they
put more strain on the organs, promote inflammation and spasming in the
intestines...raw is far easier to digest.

Also, I wouldn't hesitate at all to again try beef and lamb. It's very
possible the problems were merely too much too soon. Start slowly, adding
just a bit to a chicken meal and go from there. Size has nothing to do with
it...your dogs are still carnivores and red meat is their natural diet! :))

Specifically for Dinky, I'd feed her the typical pancreatic/EPI
diet....starting out with small frequent meals, not too much bone, limit fat
and supplement with a good digestive or pancreatic enzyme. Not certain what
you are using now, but many digestive enzymes are plant based and will not
help in digesting protein and fat. With all of her issues you might just
want to go with a pancreatic enzyme.

Here are some past messages from those who have had experience with this
type of problem......
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/122181
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/122224
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/91117
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/60393
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/88618

Flagyl is a horrible drug with tons of side effects. I'd stay away from
that one. Has your vet actually ever looked for a cause of her
issues.....pancreatitis, EPI, SIBO, etc??

Sandee & the Dane Gang

Messages in this topic (368)
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2.3. Re: Introduction/ SANDEE
Posted by: "Cathy" batcathy@sbcglobal.net batcathy2002
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:24 pm ((PST))

Thankyou- i was searching for files when you popped up. She is on Dogzymes by Natures Farmacy ( about 6 mos) ..created by a vet from Cornell University.....i was told it was very helpful with raw and they all feed raw...as far as i can tell it is digestive bacteria,natural amino acids & herbs.
Vet has never ran any serious testing on her...he keeps saying it is just her system. I am searching for a new vet that will take this serious. I know showing is stressful on them so I limit her ring time and anything else that will affect her.
She prefers smaller meals a couple times a day- maybe a tablespoon at a time. I remove skin & fat from chicken as i was told it holds bacteria- have even soaked it in vinegar but she refused to eat it. I will intro the red meats again....it may be too much too soon.
As for tuna- what is it that is bad...i have had people tell me not to give much- she loves it and cries at the cupboard & paws me mid-day.... she will eat a 6 oz can by herself.
Today she did eat ground turkey- almost 1/3 a lb.
I did not know about the flagyl- i will check it out - thankyou.
Cathy

C Richmond
Lesmar's CC
Battle Creek, Mi.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (368)
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2.4. Re: Introduction
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:25 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Cathy <batcathy@...> wrote:
>
> I have put them all back to raw - starting with just
> chicken again for a week or so.

Ok, keep them on chicken for another week. Feed less bones to
Dinky. Feed her meat only for at least one meal a day and little
bone for the other. I would avoid chicken backs chicken and pork
necks for her because she is still getting more bone than she
needs. No need for yogurt or pumpkin either. Back when I first
began feeding raw, I fed a veggie mush once a week and my dogs
always had diarrhea the next day so for now, leave off any veggies.
Feed Dinky chicken only, mostly meat and a little bone. No organs
for now.

In a couple of weeks give her a little turkey intermixed with
chicken. Turkey meat only. She will still get some chicken bones.

A couple of weeks later try mixing in a little pork. A week or so
later add some fish to her diet. A couple of weeks later add a
LITTLE beef. Add other things every few weeks.

Any time her symptoms re-appear, fast her for a day and stop feeding
the last thing you added to her diet. A month or so later you can
try that item again and see what happens. By adding things to the
diet slowly, it is easier to determine what is causing problems.

> She is under weight- coat is very dry & brittle....other
> wise healthy & playful.

Under weight can sometimes be in the eye of the beholder. Healthy,
energetic and playful are important signs to look for.

> Vet suggested I give her malox or equilivent before i
> feed her......she fights it!

I'm not a vet. Not even close. I did visit a vet in his office one
time and I saw one on TV. :) I wouldn't give Maylox. It is an
antacid and she needs acidic stomach juices to properly digest her
food. Malox will hinder that process.

Hopefully this will help you understand the process of tweaking the
diat. It should help you find that foods are giving problems if
any. It MAY be that she is merely eating too much. I don't know.
You might cut back to smaller meals more often and see what that
does also.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (368)
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2.5. Re: Introduction/ SANDEE
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:54 pm ((PST))

Cathy,

Time for a new vet. That's ridiculous to shrug it off blaming it on her
system and continually prescribing drugs which are obviously not the
solution! That is nonsense...there is something wrong that this keeps
happening, she hasn't gained weight, her coat is poor. Someone needs to
take this seriously and look for a diagnosis.

As far as I know, Dogzyme is plant based. Regardless, with her issues I
think I would try something more powerful.

Skin and fat is necessary and I wouldn't worry about bacteria, but would
avoid them for now just to cut down on the fat content to get her eating
better without precipitating another episode. Go slow with this girl.

I think the warning about tuna is related to mercury contamination? Not
exactly certain offhand but I know we have discussed it in the past.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Cathy" <batcathy@sbcglobal.net>

>
> Thankyou- i was searching for files when you popped up. She is on
Dogzymes by Natures Farmacy ( about 6 mos) ..created by a vet from Cornell
University.....i was told it was very helpful with raw and they all feed
raw...as far as i can tell it is digestive bacteria,natural amino acids &
herbs.
> Vet has never ran any serious testing on her...he keeps saying it is
just her system. I am searching for a new vet that will take this serious. I
know showing is stressful on them so I limit her ring time and anything else
that will affect her.
> She prefers smaller meals a couple times a day- maybe a tablespoon at a
time. I remove skin & fat from chicken as i was told it holds bacteria- have
even soaked it in vinegar but she refused to eat it. I will intro the red
meats again....it may be too much too soon.
> As for tuna- what is it that is bad...i have had people tell me not to
give much- she loves it and cries at the cupboard & paws me mid-day.... she
will eat a 6 oz can by herself.
> Today she did eat ground turkey- almost 1/3 a lb.
> I did not know about the flagyl- i will check it out - thankyou.

Messages in this topic (368)
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2.6. Re: Introduction/ SANDEE
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:09 pm ((PST))

Cathy,

Dogzyme is a probiotic, not a digestive enzyme. It will have absolutely no
benefit in digestion of protein and fat.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Cathy" <batcathy@sbcglobal.net>

>
> Thankyou- i was searching for files when you popped up. She is on
Dogzymes by Natures Farmacy

Messages in this topic (368)
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2.7. Re: Introduction
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:20 pm ((PST))

Cathy <batcathy@...> wrote:
>
> > our typical diet consits of chicken backs+additional meat
> pork neck + meat
> chicken necks
> chicken thigh
> chicken leg
> turkey neck
> mackeral or tuna
> frozen smelt- hot day
> ground turkey every other day to off set bone with added
yougart,dash of pumpkin
> rabbit when available
> we also get liver twice a week
> beef heart sliced as a treat
> to all of this i add eggs occasionally- small carrotts or green
beans as a treat -as they like it
> Only suppliment is fish oil & tad of olive oil ( Dinky gets
digestive enzymes daily)
*****
This is not quite the menu I would choose to feed or to recommend,
but my guess is Dinky's problems are broader than just what you
feed. Has you vet done any investigative work with Dinky? Seems
pretty obvious to me that when a symptom recurs after treatment that
the treatment isn't the right treatment. I mean, I don't know what
more is, but were I in your situation and I had the funds to finance
further diagnostics, I surely would do more. Did you do bloodwork?

For all your dogs, I recommend you feed more meat--include that beef
heart as meat and feed lots more of it--and less bone; and unless you
are emotionally attached to the yogurt and pumpkin, I recommend you
ditch them both. And olive oil brings nothing to a dog's nutritional
well being. If you are feeding the OO to lube the tubes, feeding
less bone/more meat will do the trick; if you are feeding OO for
essential fatty acids, your dogs have no need for O9, just
supplemental O3 (O6 being plenty available in feedlot/factory meat).

I think taking the menu back to utter basics for The Dink is the
right idea. The other dogs--removing what they do poorly on, like
beef and lamb, is a good idea but I don't think you need to go back
to square one with them, unless I am missing something here.
However, simplifying the menu is always recommended when things go
south: if the whole gang has problems, yes by all means start over
again with chicken for everyone.

Poor little Dinky. Have you tried multiple small meals? What
digestive enzyme are you using and are you using it correctly? Are
you removing the skin and fat from the chicken? My fear is that menu
fussing is of little value until you have some idea of why she can't
eat. I hope your vet can be motivated to look beyond parasites. And
I'm sorry I can't cobble together a workable diet. I hope others can
offer more.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (368)
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3a. IN FRANCE: need advice
Posted by: "Michal Cline" Mcline30@aol.com michalcline
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:40 pm ((PST))

I an fairly new to raw feeding (a little over 2 months) and have 2
parti Standard Poodles from the States. Both boys are doing VERY
well with their new diet although Victor,(17 kilo) the 3 year old
needs to have his food hand feed to him. Yes, he is spoiled. Aramis,
(25 kilo)the 2 year old, just chews away with much pleasure.

My problem is: we live in a small fishing village outside Montpellier
so no problem getting Omega 3, fresh sardines and mackeral is
inexpensive, but the cost of meat including chicken is astronomical.

I know from reading the material provided through this site that they
need variety. Is there anyone here who knows of a group in France
where we can get red meat at a reasonable price? Chicken here is at
least 2,98 euros a kilo which comes out to over 2 dollars a pound.
Red meat starts at about 6 euros a kilo. We spent at least 40 euros a
week on dog food! To my knowledge most here feed kibble.

I feed mostly chicken halved or in quarters and when I can liver,
heart, and tongue from pig, beef and lamb, and eggs. The problem is
that the French eat almost all parts of animals so they are not ever
on sale!

BTW, this is an incredible group and I thank everyone for all the
information on raw feeding! What a difference!

Michal in Southern France

Messages in this topic (2)
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3b. Re: IN FRANCE: need advice
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:44 pm ((PST))

Hi, Michal!
Use this link to search the Yahoo! Groups France sites;
http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/

You could search for the same key words in French that you would in English,
for raw feeding co-ops, or BARF groups or a French version of carnivore feed
supplier.

You could also use Google to search for online French suppliers, like
restaurants and reptile/zoo carnivore feeders.Searching neighboring
countries for online and Yahoo Groups might work for you, too.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On Nov 24, 2007 5:18 PM, Michal Cline <Mcline30@aol.com> wrote:

> <snip>
>
> My problem is: we live in a small fishing village outside Montpellier
> so no problem getting Omega 3, fresh sardines and mackerel is
> inexpensive, but the cost of meat including chicken is astronomical.
>
> I know from reading the material provided through this site that they
> need variety. Is there anyone here who knows of a group in France
> where we can get red meat at a reasonable price?
>

> <snip>
> BTW, this is an incredible group and I thank everyone for all the
> information on raw feeding! What a difference!
>
> Michal in Southern France
>
>
>

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Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. Re: Bacteria and raw feeding.
Posted by: "Cathy" batcathy@sbcglobal.net batcathy2002
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:51 pm ((PST))

LOL- I am a neat freak as far as my home but I only use the vinegar/water for clean up....and my grand daughter snacks here alot too.
No harsh chemicals for my gang- i even make an oil spray for flies & skitos rather than pesticides....and we have a garlic spray for the yard to repel bugs.
None have been on heart worm meds & no intestinal parasites have been found.
Cathy

C Richmond
Lesmar's CC
Battle Creek, Mi.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (23)
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5a. Red Meats?
Posted by: "blue eyed" eyed_blue@yahoo.co.uk eyed_blue
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:29 pm ((PST))

To be honest I have never counted a specific amount of red meats fed in the diet but thats something I will keep my eye on in replys from others.

I do give a little raw kidney with other foods as part of a meal every now and again, my dog seems to digest this easier than liver. I use boiled liver as training treats once or twice a week and keep a little bit of it raw for his meal at night. I feed quite a bit of tripe form lamb and ox but not sure if this counts as an organ meat, I know its offal, but being truthfull hadnt thought of it before. You can also feed the giblets from chicken...

Im going to start looking for pancreas soon,

Natalie

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Tryit now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (13)
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5b. Red Meats?
Posted by: "blue eyed" eyed_blue@yahoo.co.uk eyed_blue
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:29 pm ((PST))

OOps! Yes the heart is considered a red meat! Obviously too late for me, better go before I try to answer any more q's tonight!!LOL

Natalie

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Tryit now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (13)
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5c. Re: Red Meats?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:15 pm ((PST))

Natalie,

I wouldn't worry too much about specifics...red meat should predominate
rather than bony chicken. Other than that, just feed your dogs. Tripe is
stomach muscle so good stuff! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "blue eyed" <eyed_blue@yahoo.co.uk>

> To be honest I have never counted a specific amount of red meats fed in
the diet but thats something I will keep my eye on in replys from others.
>
> I do give a little raw kidney with other foods as part of a meal every
now and again, my dog seems to digest this easier than liver. I use boiled
liver as training treats once or twice a week and keep a little bit of it
raw for his meal at night. I feed quite a bit of tripe form lamb and ox but
not sure if this counts as an organ meat, I know its offal, but being
truthfull hadnt thought of it before. You can also feed the giblets from
chicken...

Messages in this topic (13)
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6a. Planning for Raw Feeding
Posted by: "luvsfreedom3" luvsfreedom3@yahoo.com luvsfreedom3
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:29 pm ((PST))

I've got a puppy on its way from the breeder, he's going to be 5 months
old, about 35lbs (45 when full grown). I'd like to start him on raw
feeding when he gets here, after weaning him from the kibble he's fed
now. I have heard varying percentages on bone and meat and vegetables
and vitamin additives, I'm just hoping someone can tell me what else my
dog will need in addition to what I'm planning, or if anything I'm
thinking of giving him will be dangerous - here's the weekly plan (all
uncooked):
2-3 days/wk: beef (either ground or steak of some kind with a bone in
and an organ of some sort - what's best?)
2-3 days/wk: chicken (1 whole chicken with organs)
1 day/wk: veal/venison
1 day/wk: salmon (whole fish - can I leave the bones and skin on/in or
do those need to be removed?)
each day: 1/4 of a bunch of celery
I don't know what kind of vitamins need to be added, I've seen varying
reports on powdered dairy for puppies... I could really use some good
advice. Thanks in advance for your help - V/R, Jamie

Messages in this topic (7)
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6b. Re: Planning for Raw Feeding
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:24 pm ((PST))

Feed lots of meat, a little bit of bone and some organs and you'll do fine.
The normal prey of a carnivore is around 80% meat, 10% edible bone, 10%
organs...no veggies, no dairy, no additives. Pretty simple, huh?

Sounds like you have some nice variety planned. You might want to begin
with just chicken for a week or so to get him used to digesting this new
food, then slowly add in red meat and organs. I wouldn't worry about
feeding beef bones...most are too hard to be consumed, damage teeth and you
want to avoid sharp cut bones in chops or steaks. When feeding beef, try
for some large chunks of briskets, cheeks or heart....if you can get whole
beef shanks that is a nice meal, but remove the bone once all the good stuff
is gone! :)) Oh, and don't forget pork...great economical source of red
meat and generally edible bones.

You can make soup for yourself out of the celery! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "luvsfreedom3" <luvsfreedom3@yahoo.com>

2-3 days/wk: beef (either ground or steak of some kind with a bone in
and an organ of some sort - what's best?)
2-3 days/wk: chicken (1 whole chicken with organs)
1 day/wk: veal/venison
1 day/wk: salmon (whole fish - can I leave the bones and skin on/in or
do those need to be removed?)
each day: 1/4 of a bunch of celery
I don't know what kind of vitamins need to be added, I've seen varying
reports on powdered dairy for puppies... I could really use some good
advice. Thanks in advance for your help - V/R, Jamie

Messages in this topic (7)
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6c. Re: Planning for Raw Feeding
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:47 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "luvsfreedom3" <luvsfreedom3@...>
wrote:
>
> I have heard varying percentages on bone and meat and vegetables
> and vitamin additives,

The only percentage from this list you need to remember is
vegetables. The percentage of vegetables in the diet should be
ZERO! No vitamins or other addtives needed either. Feed raw meat,
bones and organs from a variety of animals. Mostly meat, some bone,
and some organs. Thats it. The diet you have listed is great.
Just leave off the veggies. They are not needed. Dogs are
carnivores. Carnivores eat meat, bones, and orgsns. Omnivores eat
veggies and meats. Dogs are not omnivores.

You will need to start the diet slowly. Start with one meat,
chicken is suggested, and gradually add more meats over time. For
my suggestions, check my web page at

http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

> I'm just hoping someone can tell me what else my
> dog will need in addition to what I'm planning, or if anything I'm
> thinking of giving him will be dangerous - here's the weekly
> plan (all uncooked):

The diet is fine. Nothing else is needed. I wouldn't feed steak
with the bone in. Steak bones have been cut and can have some sharp
edges. I would cut the steak off the bone.

You can leave off the celery. It's not dangerous, just not needed.
Leave the bones in the salmon. No vitamins are needed. No dairy
needed. Only feed raw meat, bones, and organs from a variety of
animals. From time to time I would add some different meats such as
pork or lamb or turkey just for more variety.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (7)
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6d. Re: Planning for Raw Feeding
Posted by: "luvsfreedom3" luvsfreedom3@yahoo.com luvsfreedom3
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:40 pm ((PST))

Sandee,
Thanks so much for the response! I'm so worried now about the beef
bones! The butcher I'm planning to go to has these big beef bones
(maybe 2" diameter) that are cut on both ends and have the marrow in
them, maybe a foot long, and I was planning on using those as
the 'bone' portion of the diet. But now the tooth damage thing makes
sense, they're BIG bones... but I thought they'd be good because it
would be a challenge and there's marrow in there so the dog would want
to chew it and get his 'bone' requirement... What's the best thing
you've seen for that? I keep hearing these horror stories about not
feeding chicken bones, and both responses I got to my question
mentioned not feeding beef bones because of the sharp edges... so is it
pretty much pork bones? And do you know if dogs can eat fish bones or
do those get stuck in their digestive tracks? Do you debone/descale
fish before you give them to the dogs or just give them to them whole?
Thanks again for your response, I can really use the advice :) - V/R,
Jamie

Messages in this topic (7)
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6e. Re: Planning for Raw Feeding
Posted by: "luvsfreedom3" luvsfreedom3@yahoo.com luvsfreedom3
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:40 pm ((PST))

Bill,
Thanks so much for your response! I had the celery in there because I
heard that wild dogs/wolves at grasses to help with digestion so that
vegetable fiber was something they needed in some amount regularly, but
what you're saying makes sense. Do you know if I can just put a fish
in the bowl for the dog, or do I need to descale (can you tell I
haven't done much with fish before? LOL) and/or debone the fish? Will
the fish bones hurt the dog's stomach? Thanks again for the response -
V/R, Jamie

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

6f. Re: Planning for Raw Feeding
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:51 pm ((PST))

The bone portion of the diet needs to be edible, not large marrow bones.
Just about any bone other than beef...the bones in chicken, pork, whole
fish, rabbit, lamb, goat, turkey, venison are mostly consumable.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "luvsfreedom3" <luvsfreedom3@yahoo.com>

Thanks so much for the response! I'm so worried now about the beef
bones! The butcher I'm planning to go to has these big beef bones
(maybe 2" diameter) that are cut on both ends and have the marrow in
them, maybe a foot long, and I was planning on using those as
the 'bone' portion of the diet. But now the tooth damage thing makes
sense, they're BIG bones... but I thought they'd be good because it
would be a challenge and there's marrow in there so the dog would want
to chew it and get his 'bone' requirement... What's the best thing
you've seen for that? I keep hearing these horror stories about not
feeding chicken bones, and both responses I got to my question
mentioned not feeding beef bones because of the sharp edges... so is it
pretty much pork bones? And do you know if dogs can eat fish bones or
do those get stuck in their digestive tracks? Do you debone/descale
fish before you give them to the dogs or just give them to them whole?

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

6g. Re: Planning for Raw Feeding
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:08 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "luvsfreedom3" <luvsfreedom3@...>
wrote:
>
> Do you know if I can just put a fish
> in the bowl for the dog, or do I need to descale (can you tell I
> haven't done much with fish before?

Hey Jamie,
Yes, you can just put a whole fish in the dogs bowl and let him go
at it. You don't need to do anything. HOWEVER: Some dogs don't
take to fish too well and you may have to doctor it up some to get
him to eat it. You may need to skin it, cut it up, or other things
to make it more palatible. Fish bones will not hurt him.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (7)
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________________________________________________________________________

7a. Preparing Quail
Posted by: "glamour.cupcakes" glamour.cupcakes@yahoo.com glamour.cupcakes
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:08 pm ((PST))

Hello,

I'm relatively new with the raw diet and have a question about
quail, particularly this quote:

"If you are feeding wild game, it is recommended that you check it
thoroughly for shot and that you freeze it for at least 24 hours
prior to feeding to kill any parasites. If you know your source,
however, the freezing is not always necessary. It is just
recommended. Be aware that upland game birds (quail, pheasant, dove,
etc.) are all shot with lead shot. If a dog or cat ingests the lead
pellets, lead poisoning can occur. So if you feed these animals,
check them thoroughly for lead pellets. Wild game is a wonderful
addition to any carnivore's diet."

Source: http://rawfed.com/myths/feedraw.html

My question is, am I supposed to just look for puncture wounds on
the quail? If I see none, then it should be safe, right?

I just bought a pack of three quails from an ethnic market and from
what I see, they have been gutted, although all the body parts
(minus head) is still in place. If it's sold in a supermarket, they
should have been checked over already for lead pellets, am I correct?

Any other precautions I should take before giving it to my dog?

Thank you!

- Kay L.

Messages in this topic (2)
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7b. Re: Preparing Quail
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:28 pm ((PST))

> I just bought a pack of three quails from an ethnic market and from
> what I see, they have been gutted, although all the body parts
> (minus head) is still in place. If it's sold in a supermarket, they
> should have been checked over already for lead pellets, am I correct?

Kay,

The quail you purchased were farmed birds (not wild), and therefore, not
shot. So no, there's no danger of lead pellets in your birds.

> Any other precautions I should take before giving it to my dog?

Nope - feed away!

Casey

Messages in this topic (2)
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8a. Re: Newbie, question about hungry dog.
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:13 pm ((PST))

Hi, Sarah!
Short answer, it depends! ^_^

Hmm, 8.3 kgs is um, about 18.30 pounds. I'd definitely consider that a small
dog.
so, 3% of 8.3 kg = 249 grams or 8.78 oz.
4% of 8.3 kg = 332 grams or 11.71 oz
5% of 8.3 grams = 415 grams or 14.63 oz

You *may be feeding him enough, and he *may just be reacting to the new raw
food by feeling he can't get enough of it. Smart dog!! ; )

He may be feeling a little anxious for the same reason, wanting more, but
feeling that the new raw food may never come again. Being a terrier, and
predatory, he might just feel that hunting for more is the best way to
accomplish his new goal in life, getting more of that good stuff! Being a
dog, and doing what he's learned works to get him what he wants; going to
'his eating place' and asking for 'more, please' and going to the fridge and
sitting in front to point the way, *just in case you've forgotten where the
'good stuff' is (and do you sometimes give him a snip of something when he's
there, and you're getting food out?) the only way he knows to let you know
he wants more.

Its not only small to tiny dogs that sometimes need to be fed a larger
percentage of their Estimated Ideal Adult Body Weight (EIABW)
1) Dogs or pups who are not up to their adult or ideal body weight. You
might need to revise this figure if he's an adult who needs to gain, or is
still a bit of a pup who has some growing to do, or an unknown mix where
you're not sure of his final adult size.
2) If he is a very busy boy who never stops following you around or
running/playing a lot outdoors or is in training as a performance dog or who
hunts on his own out of doors, or indoors for that matter.
3) If he spends some time out of doors in freezing weather. Or a lot of time
out of doors in cold weather.
4) If he is a bit anxious or stressed, some or all of the time, he may need
more to make up for the cals he 'worries' off.
5) Some dogs/pups just have a higher metabolism than others, they burn cals
faster than dogs their same breed/size and need a higher % than even their
own litter mates.

4%, 5%, even 6%+ of their EIABW or more is not out of the question for some
dogs to maintain or gain needed weight and growth. You need to play with
gradually adding more meat to each meal, to bowel tolerance, until you reach
a place where he looks great and isn't feeling bony or chubby. Weighing the
food and the dog is fine at first, but once you get the hang of raw feeding,
you can feed a little more, or less at a meal, and adjust over the next few
meals. Tweaking the portions you feed, according to the dog's current needs,
is something that comes to you with experience.

Feeding beef ribs in slabs of 2-3 or beef/goat legs or another
hard-not-edible bone for your guy to keep busy and floss with can take the
edge off of the "Feed ME!" anxiety for you both, and take the edge off his
energy a little, too. Just toss the bones in the trash when the goodies are
eaten off.

Most dogs get a little more calm about meals over time. But don't let his
*want* for more overwhelm his *should*.

Freezing meat is a great way to stock up on sales or bulk purchases! Quite a
few raw feeders have a 'dog freezer' or more than one! Look to your local
craigslist, FreeCycle or other recycling group for a cheap or free one.

Portioning and repackaging meats bought on sale or in bulk before freezing
makes sense - saves work later. You won't need to thaw anything to pack a
cooler to take on the road for a trip or visit, and in the summer, some dogs
like their meat 'n bones frozen - cools them down and adds complexity to a
boring, easy to crunch/swallow meal. It can be as easy or as complex a
procedure as you want;
a) just cut portions and bag several meals worth of the same or different
proteins together.
b) pack individual or daily portions.
c) pack up different size portions for different size dogs.
d) pack up a meatless protein with a different (beef mince with a softer
chicken back or turkey neck, say) bone to save sorting later.
e) add in a tiny dollop of liver or other organ to packets for daily
feeding.
e) cut up organs separately, freeze on a flat tray, then bag together, to
feed weekly, or when the mood hits.
I like to use slider bags, but other people like the rigid
disposable/reuseable plastic containers. I save my bags by freezing them in
the freezer when they're empty, and rinsing/refilling when I'm packing up
the next batch.

Introducing liver now is fine, if you take it slow, and feed tiny bits not
too frequently. By tiny bit, I mean about he size of your pinky fingernail,
or even smaller. If you feed too much or too often, you're liable to have to
clean up a blow out - not necessarily a bad or uncomfortable thing for the
dog, but no fun for the human. I'd hold off on feeding liver when adding a
new protein to his diet. I'd also wait to introduce other organs, like
kidney, spleen, thymus, pancreas, etc. until you have fed several other
proteins successfully.

If you're interested in feeding whole prey, this link may be helpful for
you;
http://www.livefoods.co.uk/index.php?cPath=24

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On Nov 24, 2007 6:40 AM, Sarah <hecarte@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Hi, I am very new to raw feeding, just started 9 days ago.
>

> <snip>
> I've been reading this list with interest and have gotten a lot of help
> so far.
>
> Regards, Sarah (UK)
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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