[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12323

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Checking in, week 4 - 2-3% calc question
From: katkellm
1b. Re: Checking in, week 4 - 2-3% calc question
From: carnesbill
1c. Re: Checking in, week 4 - 2-3% calc question
From: laura.wimpey

2a. Re: Medicated or Non Medicated?
From: carnesbill

3a. Re: Three pounds/day for 100 lb dog
From: Laurie Swanson
3b. Re: Three pounds/day for 100 lb dog
From: Tina Berry

4a. Re: New - Intro - dog with possible kidney disease
From: Andrea

5a. Re: more on turkey wings and reply to Chris
From: costrowski75

6a. Re: First Raw feed mixed reviews
From: Andrea

7a. Re: Raw Feeding and hormonal cycles
From: costrowski75
7b. Re: Raw Feeding and hormonal cycles
From: Laura Atkinson
7c. Raw Feeding and hormonal cycles
From: Michael Moore
7d. Re: Raw Feeding and hormonal cycles
From: ginny wilken
7e. Re: Raw Feeding and hormonal cycles
From: Tina Berry

8a. Re: Chihuahua Gulping + Choking -- Ideas?
From: Andrea
8b. Re: Chihuahua Gulping + Choking -- Ideas?
From: Laurie Swanson

9a. Re: UPDATE to my Question RE: [rawfeeding] Pig Leg bones...
From: costrowski75

10a. Re: variety
From: costrowski75

11a. Re: trying not working
From: costrowski75

12a. Re: raw food compagnies in the USA
From: costrowski75

13a. how do I teach my bulldog to chew?
From: Jay
13b. Re: how do I teach my bulldog to chew?
From: Scott Baker
13c. Re: how do I teach my bulldog to chew?
From: Laurie Swanson

14. I know it's not a miracle, but...
From: i_calado

15. New member, Kim
From: Sai Simonson

Messages
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1a. Re: Checking in, week 4 - 2-3% calc question
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:07 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "laura.wimpey" <laura.wimpey@...>
wrote:

> Elias' food calculation is working strange - he's not loosing weight
> and in fact is appearing more portly and content these days.

Hi Laura,
Have you actually weighed him? The reason that i am asking is because
when i first started raw feeding, i thought my lab gained weight
because she looked, as you said, more portly. When i weighed her,
however, she hadn't gained any weight at all, what she had just seemed
more solid. Also, this lab, who is 55lbs, maintains her weight at
14oz-give or take-so if in fact he did gain weight, it could be he
just needs less food.
KathyM who wishes she wanted less food

Messages in this topic (5)
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1b. Re: Checking in, week 4 - 2-3% calc question
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:18 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "laura.wimpey" <laura.wimpey@...>
wrote:
>
> Is
> there some fallable point in my feeding calculation?

The fallable point is that you seem to be feeding numbers rather than
real world stuff. Those numbers are nothing more than a suggested
starting point to give the new raw feeder some sort of ball park place
to begin. Feed more or less depending on the dogs build. If your dog
needs to lose weight and he is not losing with the amount you are
feeding, feed less or feed a less fattening food. No need to measure
every meal.

I have never weighed anything in my 5 years of raw feeding. I know
how much I feed. If I need to adjust(and i do sometimes) I feed more
or less.

It sounds like you are feeding more lamb and beef than anything and
both of those are more calorie dense than things like chicken and
turkey.

> His stools have not indicated overfeeding since the first
> few days.

BUT, according to you, his weight is indicating he needs to be fed
less or fed "thinner" food.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

>
> Regards,
> Laura W.
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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1c. Re: Checking in, week 4 - 2-3% calc question
Posted by: "laura.wimpey" laura.wimpey@yahoo.com laura.wimpey
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:41 am ((PST))

>Those numbers are nothing more than a suggested starting point...

Yes and so should I consider myself no longer a "starter" raw feeder
after only a few weeks? I took the calculation as a starting point.
I'm not going to weigh the food forever but I am going to get a basic
undertanding of what 9 oz looks like and for a few days that has
required a scale which resulted in my focus on numbers which I then
spouted out in my post. I'm not as number intense as is percieved.

I approached it rather counterintuitively - I didn't start weighing
food until the THIRD week. I just put the food in front of the dog
the first two weeks. It was the portly expansion of eli's gut that
caused me to start weighing the food.

You were helpful mentioning the calorie content of the meats I'm
feeding. I'll muck around the archives now to find some info on
higher calorie meats; go back and find those links I ingnored that
took you to nutritional info sites. And no, I won't become obsessed
with counting calories for the dogs instead of counting ounces :P.

Regards,
Laura W.

Messages in this topic (5)
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2a. Re: Medicated or Non Medicated?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:07 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "PK Shader" <Forloveofdogs@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "" <carnesw@> wrote:
>
> I know this is a bit after the fact, but I am very curious to
> find out
> what feed "exactly" your brother uses on his chicken farm.

I don't know "exactly" what he feeds.

> Even now I cannot find any feed formulated for chickens at any
> of my local or otherwise farm feed stores because they
> don't carry "chicken" feed that does not have meds already in
> the mix.

He doesn't buy his food at a store. It is shipped in by tractor
trailer trucks. It is not in bags, but open in the trucks. It is
pumped into large silo like structures and sent by conveyer belt to
the feeders. Feeding is an automatic operation. No humans needed.
He gets a tractor trailer load every few days.

> And since a normal chicken takes up to 5 months to mature may
> I assume that your brother is farming the genetically
> engineered whites that mature in 6 to 8 weeks?

I don't know if "genetically engineered" is the correct term anymore
than each breed of dog is "genetically engineered". Yes they are
white and they mature in 8 weeks.

> If so I know that (here in Wisconsin
> according to our own farm extension service) if they are not given
> large supplements of vitamin B, D and calcium daily their
> legs become deformed and they will go down.

I don't know what supplements are in the food. I don't consider
vitamins and minerals to be chemicals. I guess technically they are
but they aren't like hormones or steriods or abx which aren't used.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (16)
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3a. Re: Three pounds/day for 100 lb dog
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:07 am ((PST))

Hi Sai,

How does Lexi look? Sometimes dogs gain weight on the scale, but
they're just fine. That said, it can be easy to overfeed all this fun
new food. How old are your dogs? How active? Some dogs need 2% of
their body weight in food daily, some 4% or so. Just adjust amounts of
food if they look too skinny or too chubby (keeping in mind that being
a little lean is better than overweight).

Laurie

Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: Three pounds/day for 100 lb dog
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:45 am ((PST))

"Lexi has gained 10 pounds since July on the all raw diet. Oh what to do???"

Ignore the scale and look at your dog. When you convert to raw, the main
thing to remember is you just cut out all those fattening carbs and your dog
will develop more muscle instead of fat. Muscle weighs more than fat. It's
just like us if we weigh 120lbs ideally, then start lifting weights, doing
aerobics, etc. and now weigh 140 - but we still wear the same size clothes -
it's because we converted our fat to muscle and we are now tone.

Same with dogs; so if he's getting appropriate exercise, and you can barely
see his ribs and they feel like washboards, he's probably fine. Also, I
don't know if all breeds do this, but gsds will get a fatty pocket under
their chest between their front legs when they are too heavy.

So ignore the scale and look at your dog - he'll tell you.

--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Re: New - Intro - dog with possible kidney disease
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:22 am ((PST))

Hi, Tammy, welcome to the group! I'm sorry about Cody and I hope he
doesn't have anything serious. I don't know enough about raw and
kidney disease to speak authoritatively, but I haven't heard of a
disease yet that wouldn't work with a good raw diet. I'll let the
experts talk more in specifics for you.

> I think I've had what seems to be the typical early concerns -
> bacteria & bones - but have fairly well satisfied myself that those
> concerns are unjustified if care & common sense is used.

Good, this is usually the biggest hurdle for us to clear.

> I was also curious as to how much on average you spend per week
> feeding raw.

I have a big freezer that I keep stocked with food for the dogs and
cats. I've never calculated out how much I actually spend a week
since I buy in bulk. I have a pointer mix (about 60lbs), a newf mix
puppy (also about 60lbs), and three cats. If I had to guess I'd say
I spend about $25 a week feeding them (though most of it goes to the
black hole of a newf pup).

> how or where the bone is cut can be a factor in splintering?

Raw bones shouldn't splinter, but big bones cut with saws can be
pretty sharp. Think pork chop or T bones.

> Just how does one go about "cutting" a whole chicken, for example,
> into the right proportions?

I *hate* cutting up food, but quartering a chicken isn't all that
bad. The hardest part is cutting through the back, but if you have
good poultry shears it works better. I just cut the bird so I have
two breast/wing quarters and two leg/thigh quarters. When I had to
divide it more for the cats I would take the leg off at the joint and
cut the breast quarter in half. Luckily I have trained the cats to
eat from a whole chicken now so I don't have to fuss with cutting
them any more.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (2)
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5a. Re: more on turkey wings and reply to Chris
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:29 am ((PST))

Michelle R <crested_dog8@...> wrote:>
> So on that logic, then, would you be comfortable feeding the wing,
with added meaty meat?
*****
That, IMO, would be a way to "even out" the amount of bone a wing
offers. This would be particularly useful if one were feeding a dog
for which "too much" bone produces difficult stools. For dogs that
are not especially bothered by wide swings of meaty meals and bony
meals, adding meat to a wing may not be important in this regard.

My preference is to feed a wing securely attached to more of the
bird. Not necessarily the whole rest of the breast quarter but at
least stuck to part of the shoulder. This only adds meat but also
complicates the eating process, which is always a good thing.

Meaning, it is not simply the wing itself, it is the actual lack of
meat on the wing you dislike? Right?
*****
Well, um. Yes it is the wing by itself. That's what I choose not to
feed: the wing by itself. However, as part of the larger bird, wings
fit right in. For small cats and dogs, a wing plus some added meat
is a reasonable compromise.

I've never had problems with that "little sharp thing" on a turkey
wing, but then again I've never fed turkey wings by their lonesome.
I can't see that "little sharp thing" being worrisome to a dog of any
size. Keep in mind that to some people the nails on chicken feet are
daunting.

Seems like perhaps a wing, would benefit the diet when offered with
ground meat, since the wing has more bone than meat and ground has no
calcium (bone) ...yes?
*****
Yes, but since rawfeeders are not required by nature to balance
meals, a ground meat meal by itself is perfectly fine to feed (at
least within the terms of this topic). You do not have to add a bony
body part to a meaty meal AS LONG AS THE DOG IS GOOD WITH BONELESS
MEALS. If the rawfeeder feels the dog needs bone in every meal, then
adding a chicken wing would address that concern.

Maybe for my totally toothless kids, I could mix up a ground wing
in with some ground meat to fulfil the calcium requirements?
*****
Chicken wings go through most grinders. But there is rarely need to:
there are many posts in the archives that confirm that toothless
wonders manage bones just fine, since the eating process is crushing
not chewing and that requires jaw strength, not teeth. Not
necessarily. OTOH, they're your totally toothless kids (all of them
are toothless?), if grinding chicken wings works for you, go for it.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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6a. Re: First Raw feed mixed reviews
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:35 am ((PST))

> 2 of my standards thought I had lost my mind and refused to eat.

Bummer, but not the end of the world, right? Some dogs really don't
get that the chicken is food. It doesn't have much of a smell and
some of them are turned off by the texture. We'll help you get them
to where they love dinner time.

> My female Standard loved them she had 2 thighs (but threw up about
> 30 mins after eating) did I feed her to much at first??

I'll bet she pretty much swallowed the thighs whole, right?
Sometimes, if a dog gets a big ol' chunk of meat and bone in the
stomach it doesn't digest as quickly as the stomach would like so it
gets kicked back out. Did you pick up the vomit and throw it away?
She probably would have re-eaten it if you had let her. It sounds
gross, I know, but that's what dogs do when they haven't chewed
something enough for their tummie's liking.

> My golden refused to eat until I cut it up in smaller pieces.

Be careful here, you don't want to coax them too much in the
beginning or you will create a picky eater. A golden should be
perfectly capable of eating chicken quarters, you shouldn't have to
cut it up for her to eat. The mini/standard might be ok starting
with a thigh but I wouldn't go smaller than that.

> I took up the chicken the boys refused to eat. Maybe tomorrow they
> will be hungry. So how did I do???

You did great your first time out! You did absolutely the right
thing with the standard boys, if they get hungry they will eat next
time. Now, just do the same with the golden and mini and you'll be
golden. If they refuse food again at the next feeding don't stress
or try to coax them or cut up the food, just calmly put it away for
next time. You might consider warming the food before feeding by
putting it in a bowl of hot water. Sometimes that brings out more
smell and makes it more appetizing. If that doesn't work, let us
know. All in all you did a fantastic job!

Andrea

Messages in this topic (4)
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7a. Re: Raw Feeding and hormonal cycles
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:41 am ((PST))

"Carla Spelt" <fauvetnoir@...> wrote:>
> Has anyone noticed a difference in time bitches take between season
> after switching to raw?
*****
I've only two bitches and both were started on raw as pups so I cannot
compare before and after. However, my golden bitch didn't come into
season til she was almost a year old and I know her littermates (and
her Momma) cycle more quickly; subsequently her timing has been about
10-11 months. My border collie had her first estrus at 10 months; I
have nothing to compare that with.

Whether the cycle change is meaningful is open to interpretation
though. Some say so what, others suggest longer cycles are healthier,
others argue the opposite.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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7b. Re: Raw Feeding and hormonal cycles
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:02 am ((PST))

Yes and no :-) Katie, who's been raw fed since 7 weeks, cycles every six
months, like clockwork. But she didn't have her first season until she was
almost a year old. She (and many of the other females in her line) have
major false pregnancies (something we'll be addressing through homeopathy
but that's another list <grin>).

Satinka, who didn't start eating raw until she moved in here cycles every
10-12 months. Her sister is every 6 months, like clockwork.

Robin, who just had her first season, started at about 8 months, like her
sister...but her season was short. I'm hoping it's not going to be split
seasons!

For whatever reason, I welcome the longer cycles. First off 'cause it's
healthier for the uterus not to cycle every six months without breeding
(according to repro specialists that is). Second because it's easier to
manage a household of females and intact (and wish they were intact) males
when the girls aren't going off every 6 months.

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Forget love...I'd rather fall in chocolate.

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7c. Raw Feeding and hormonal cycles
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:30 am ((PST))

>> I am planning to breed one of my bitches and
to keep her on raw food while she is pregnant. I understand that pups
from a bitch fed on raw while pregnant may be a little smaller when
born but will probably be stronger.<<
Carla -- I haven't found that with the two litters I've had from rawfed bitches. My litter this summer (nine puppies) were average size at birtch. But, I did find that they grew more slowly until about the age of four to five month. Whether that had anything to do with weaning them to raw, I don't know. I will tell you that at 7 wks., my bitch's breeder commented that they looked "puny." Now, they're seven months and while one bitch is a bit smaller, I think that's just genetics.

>> The only thing that is puzzling me is that she is very late coming in season. She's had regular seasons approx 7 months apart but is now more than 8 months past her last season. I have switched her to raw since her last season and just wonder if it has anything to do with it?<<
Again, not in my experience. I've been rawfeeding for 6 + years, and my girls' seasons haven't changed.

>> She is in great condition by the way - looks better than she ever did on commercial food. I show my dogs as well and ppl are often commenting on the great coats my dogs have :-) <<
Isn't that the coolest thing? I show mine as well, and I love the coats and better muscling that raw gives -- quite a nice "edge" in the show ring! Congrats on making the switch.

-- Anne and the PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue

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7d. Re: Raw Feeding and hormonal cycles
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:04 am ((PST))

On Nov 27, 2007, at 7:40 AM, costrowski75 wrote:

> "Carla Spelt" <fauvetnoir@...> wrote:>
>> Has anyone noticed a difference in time bitches take between season
>> after switching to raw?
> ......
> Whether the cycle change is meaningful is open to interpretation
> though. Some say so what, others suggest longer cycles are healthier,
> others argue the opposite.
> Chris O

There's some evidence that domestication, which almost always entails
changing a biologically appropriate diet to one based on grain, for
every species, has increased the frequency of cycles for all. Cows,
horses, humans, dogs, pigs, chickens, guinea pigs - all. It would
seem very logical, then, to expect a return to longer cycles - and
often easier ones - for any animal switched back to what it should be
eating. I recall some discussion of this in the distant past on this
list, which does substantiate the longer cycles.

Most animals in their natural state will cycle only when the seasons
are supportive of the process, so that cubs and calves can be born in
the spring when food is abundant, and have the best chance of growth
and survival through the following winter. Even humans will revert,
on certain diets. Carbs are only abundant in nature in the late
summer and fall, and there is solid science showing that they help
produce cortisol and other hormones to encourage mating. We and our
domestic animals, however, encourage it all year round, through our
diets and artificial lighting to obscure the seasons.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

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7e. Re: Raw Feeding and hormonal cycles
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:12 am ((PST))

"Has anyone noticed a difference in time bitches take between season after
switching to raw"

We acquired a 2 yr old female that I switched to raw right away and she
continued to cycle every 6 months right on schedule.

My prev kibble fed females (2) cycled every 6 months. My other 18 month old
female who was weaned to raw also cycles every 6 months.

The only time I've had their cycles vary is with 2 competing alpha bitches,
or one alpha forcing her heat when the other would go in heat.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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8a. Re: Chihuahua Gulping + Choking -- Ideas?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:44 am ((PST))

> Do you have any tips for me on how to deal with a tiny gulper?

Yes feed big food in relation to the pup. If she can't swallow it
whole she has to chew it.

> What are some "safe" parts I can give her?

Anything she can't try to fit in her mouth whole.

> I can't offer her a whole chicken because that will take her over a
> week to finish.

How about a chicken quarter? That should be more than big enough.

> Also, what I worry about is if she manages to chew a big chunk out
> of a big part I give her and choke on THAT.

The thing about big food is that it takes a lot of energy to get that
chunk off of the food. As the dog is working to get food off to eat
they relax a bit and are less likely to bolt the food. When finished
with a big complicated meal most dogs are ready for a nap. Dogs
don't eat polite little bites like us, they get something to the size
that they think will fit down the throat and they swallow it. She'll
likely calm down a bit in time, but for now you should help her out
by feeding big things.

Andrea

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8b. Re: Chihuahua Gulping + Choking -- Ideas?
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:45 am ((PST))

I've been around the block on this issue w/my Boston...The thing
about the gizzard is that it was already separate from the rest of
the prey animal or a bigger hunk, she didn't have to think about how
to dismantle it, she's newer to this type of food, she was excited,
and it looked like it might fit. I don't have this tiny of a dog so
I'm not sure the exact parts that will work best for her, but I think
you need to feed as big as you need to when you can (big for her will
be smaller than for bigger dogs, obviously), and when you can't, chop
things up smaller. Did you try searching the archives on toy/tiny
dogs? Maybe feed a chicken drumstick for a day or two, or a leg
quarter for a few days, and alternate with some boneless meat. Add
in a bit of organ when ready. If you need to put it back in the
freezer and freeze and thaw, do that. If you want to feed pork or
beef, feed a bigger hunk of roast when you can, and when you want to
feed gizzards or smaller hunks that are of iffy size, chop them up
into bite-size pieces. I swear, if they have to think about how to
tackle it, and dismantle it themselves, they have to slow down, and
they are just more aware of what's going down the hatch. It does
sometimes take some practice. My dog has gotten slower and smarter
over the past year of prey model. Within a few months, he had
improved significantly.

I'm not sure what happened with your dog when she was making high-
pitched noises, but I don't think she was actually choking if she
made noise. She may have been struggling to get it down.

You will get more confident as you have more experience feeding her
and seeing her eat, too.

I know how you feel. Breathe...It will be ok. :-)

Laurie

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9a. Re: UPDATE to my Question RE: [rawfeeding] Pig Leg bones...
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:49 am ((PST))

Eddie Scholten <shirl-ed@...> wrote:
>
> I asked about whole pig leg bones:Are these safe as a good chew for a
large dog? Or are then teeth-breakers?
> I wish to make it clear that these bones do have some (not much at
all) meat and sinew on them, and I only wonder if the effort of getting
that meat off is a good thing for a dog (pup or older dog?) or if the
bones are just not worth giving or are unsafe in any way?
*****
I think whole pig legs are fine for chewing adventures and may well be
entirely consumed assuming the legs are not from a crankly old porker
that spent its cantankerous life chasing intruders from its yard, in
which case the leg bones would be dense and strong and possible tooth
breakers.

Keep in mind that eating large amounts of bone withou appropriate
amounts of meat may result in some dandy constipations.
Chris O

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10a. Re: variety
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:02 am ((PST))

"alimaxral" <albrooker@...> wrote:
> Can someome please explain why it is always recommended to have
such a
> long time on chicken before adding other meats slowly?
*****
Because most new rawfeeders are overly enthusiastic about introducing
new food and most times this kind of haste results in loose stools
which for most new rawfeeders is the Voice of Doom because they
haven't come to understand the relationship between what goes in and
what comes out.

When I am introducing raw, I usually begin with chicken because it's
almost always around but I start adding small amounts of other meats
quite promptly. I have also started with quail, with turkey, with
venison. I have never needed to stick to one meat protein for "such
a long time" but certainly if the dog requires a slow, steady,
incremental introduction to new things then that's the approach one
should take.

I don't see any specific value in loitering.
Chris O

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11a. Re: trying not working
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:08 am ((PST))

Droghedabullmastiff has unsubscribed.
Chris O
Moderation Team

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12a. Re: raw food compagnies in the USA
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:13 am ((PST))

h h <deedeekinsisme@...> wrote:
>it will indirectly affect us because the non-rawfeeders out there do
not know the difference between the two and will only see that now even
the FDA says that feeding raw is bad. :::sigh:::
*****
Heidi, the FDA already says feeding raw is bad. One of the basics most
rawfeeders have to address thoroughly is the attitude of
institutionalized anything towards alternative anything.

This may well be the single biggest obstacle to overcome.
Argh.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (12)
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13a. how do I teach my bulldog to chew?
Posted by: "Jay" jayrush44@yahoo.com jayrush44
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:31 am ((PST))

Hello everyone,
I have a English bulldog that we rescued over a year ago, she was
terribly neglected - almost 20! lb underweight with chronic Staph A.
skin infections, hypothyroidism and allergies. I discovered raw
feeding while trying to figure out a better way to keep her skin
conditions under control without continuous antibiotic use (of course
in combination with medicated bathing, thyroid meds, and
supplements). Since switching to raw diet about 2 mo ago I discovered
that she does not know how to chew using her molars. I know that
ground meat and bone is not as beneficial as whole pieces I just
cannot figure out how to teach her to chew. I did try to hold the
meat while she attempts to eat it but she just nibbled and pulled on
it with front teeth and when I hold the meat to the side of her mouth
toward molars she just tries to inhale it whole without any attempts
to chew it. After a while she gets frustrated and looses ability to
differenciate between my fingers and her food:) Then, I tried to give
her a really large chunk of meat thinking that I don't have to hold
it and she will work on it till she figures out how to chew. I am
glad that I did not leave the room! I turned around for few seconds
and she had 2/3 of 3 lb pot roast in her thoat, she looked like a
hairy anaconda swallowing a goat (how was that even physically
possible for a dog?). Luckily I was able to pull it out and my Missie
was just fine but I have not attempted to give her whole meat since
that traumatic episode (more traumatic for me then her I believe).
So, I was just wondering if anyone had different ideas, tips or
tricks on how I can safely teach her to chew? I would appreciate any
suggestions.
Rita

Messages in this topic (3)
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13b. Re: how do I teach my bulldog to chew?
Posted by: "Scott Baker" scottsbaker@gmail.com scottpsbaker
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:49 am ((PST))

MODERATOR'S NOTE: DOESN'T MATTER IF THE ORIGINAL TEXT IS ABOVE OR BELOW YOUR SIG LINE, TRIM IT, PLEASE!

Simple answer..dont :)

Donts dont chew. They may gnaw away on food, but they dont chew like people.
Their jaw works one way, up and down, not side to side.

So feed Large meals, freeze them if you'd like. That slows down some dogs.
Even still dogs are desgined to rip and tear off large chunks of meat and
swallow them.

The other thing about holding the food, this can cause some dogs to eat
faster then if they're left alone (but still watched).

On Nov 27, 2007 12:28 PM, Jay <jayrush44@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hello everyone,
> I have a English bulldog that we rescued over a year ago, she was
> terribly neglected - almost 20! lb underweight with chronic Staph A.
> skin infections, hypothyroidism and allergies. I discovered raw
> feeding while trying to figure out a better way to keep her skin
> conditions under control without continuous antibiotic use (of course
> in combination with medicated bathing, thyroid meds, and
> supplements). Since switching to raw diet about 2 mo ago I discovered
> that she does not know how to chew using her molars. I know that
> ground meat and bone is not as beneficial as whole pieces I just
> cannot figure out how to teach her to chew. I did try to hold the
> meat while she attempts to eat it but she just nibbled and pulled on
> it with front teeth and when I hold the meat to the side of her mouth
> toward molars she just tries to inhale it whole without any attempts
> to chew it. After a while she gets frustrated and looses ability to
> differenciate between my fingers and her food:) Then, I tried to give
> her a really large chunk of meat thinking that I don't have to hold
> it and she will work on it till she figures out how to chew. I am
> glad that I did not leave the room! I turned around for few seconds
> and she had 2/3 of 3 lb pot roast in her thoat, she looked like a
> hairy anaconda swallowing a goat (how was that even physically
> possible for a dog?). Luckily I was able to pull it out and my Missie
> was just fine but I have not attempted to give her whole meat since
> that traumatic episode (more traumatic for me then her I believe).
> So, I was just wondering if anyone had different ideas, tips or
> tricks on how I can safely teach her to chew? I would appreciate any
> suggestions.
> Rita
>
>
>
>
>

--
Scott

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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13c. Re: how do I teach my bulldog to chew?
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:51 am ((PST))

Hi Rita,

Check the archives for gulping, and see my post just a few minutes
ago. It's for a smaller dog, but some of it applies. Since your dog
was so neglected and underweight, and she's new to raw, she might be
more apt to get as much food in as possible, extra quickly (although
that is somewhat normal anyway for wolves/dogs--they just don't chew
like us).

If she is really avoiding certain areas of her mouth and teeth,
though, you may want to make sure she doesn't have any bad teeth
causing her pain.

My guess is just that your idea of big and hers are different and you
need to feed much bigger still (and more complicated--that's an
important factor)--at least for awhile. What have you tried
exactly? How about a whole chicken or a bone-in beef or pork roast
(even bigger than what you fed previously), or a goat leg, or a half
a turkey...You can take it up when you feel she's had enough and feed
the remainder the next day, or you can let her eat enough for a
couple days and feed that way (sometimes it is suggested to build up
to that to avoid loose stools or digestive distress but you may have
no problem).

She will figure out how to eat! Just give her something big enough
that she has to think about and work on dismantling. She will
possibly calm down in time, and with practice. She is excited to be
getting enough real food for the first time in her life and she's not
sure yet if it's going to go away.

Hang in there!

Laurie

Messages in this topic (3)
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14. I know it's not a miracle, but...
Posted by: "i_calado" i_calado@yahoo.com.br i_calado
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:46 am ((PST))

I have a big white shepherd and a miniature pinscher. I was sick and
tired of the giant smelly stools of the shepherd, until last week I
read on the internet about rawfeeding and it seemed totally logic.

I didn't wait, just read all that I could in one day, got bold and
gave raw chicken to my dogs. Bingo! I know it was not a miracle, but
the shepherd saved me all that awful cleansing right on the first
time.

Then I gave them liver and ground red meat with the chicken. Still
ok. No smelly excessive stools. And the shepherd scratches less
(would it be a side effect? He was always allergic - I don't know to
what.) The pinscher refused liver, but then I gave it first, and only
after he ate it I gave the chicken.

I know I should go slow, but I'm looking forward to try fish and
other meats.
That's it - I think you have a new fanatic.

Ivanir Calado - Brazil

Messages in this topic (1)
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15. New member, Kim
Posted by: "Sai Simonson" saiczarina@comcast.net keikokat
Date: Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:47 am ((PST))

Hi Kim,
Nice to hear your success stories with your Siberians. You have great
sources for raw food. Soon I shall trek around and find sources here
near Portland, Oregon. I do not know the area that well being a
transplant from MN where I lived for most of my 68 years.

-----------------

Ive recently moved and now live not far from a
slaughterhouse and free range, chemical free poultry
farm. So, once I get a freezer Im going to dive in and
buy some different meat for the dogs that Ive not got
before.... can anyone suggest what to ask for direct?
--
*~~ SaiCzarina*

Messages in this topic (1)
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