[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12327

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Feeding large bone?
From: Andrea

2a. Re: Feeding whole chicken tomorrow, last question ! :)
From: Andrea
2b. Re: Feeding whole chicken tomorrow, last question ! :)
From: mmc2315

3a. Re: math help, please and thank you!
From: Andrea
3b. Re: math help, please and thank you!
From: costrowski75

4a. FEEDING DOG TWICE AS RECOMMENDED
From: bel_the
4b. Re: FEEDING DOG TWICE AS RECOMMENDED
From: carnesbill
4c. Re: FEEDING DOG TWICE AS RECOMMENDED
From: costrowski75

5a. De-feathering poultry
From: Jane Boswell
5b. Re: De-feathering poultry
From: carnesbill
5c. Re: De-feathering poultry
From: Jane Boswell
5d. Re: De-feathering poultry
From: judy tallant

6a. Re: Vomiting after meals
From: Andrea

7a. Re: Cow Bones
From: costrowski75
7b. Re: Cow Bones
From: costrowski75

8a. Re: rawfeeding Deer meat
From: costrowski75
8b. Re: rawfeeding Deer meat
From: Tina Berry

9a. Re: Beef heart and other meats
From: Erika

10a. Three pounds/day for 100 lb dog
From: Hanne

11a. Re: Duck Hearts
From: Sonja

12a. Re: Beef Heart? and other meats :)
From: Tina Berry

13a. Re: Salmon Oil/How much???
From: Tina Berry

14. Poultry Backs
From: nkayl

15. Dog with persistent diarrhea
From: marlena_adema

16a. bare chicken bones (was Re: Feeding large bone?
From: Laurie Swanson

Messages
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1a. Re: Feeding large bone?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 6:35 am ((PST))

I try not to feed bones that only have a little meat on them. If I can
see the shape of the bone there isn't enough meat for me. My GSP mix
is pretty prone to bone bit vomit if he eats a particularly boney
meal. If it were me I might pack some ground meat around the bone and
feed it frozen. If nothing else I'd feed meaty meat first and then
give the bone.

> Also, is it ok to refreeze things for dogs?

Yup, freezing/thawing/freezing only really changes the texture of the
meat, that's why humans don't generally do it.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (3)
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2a. Re: Feeding whole chicken tomorrow, last question ! :)
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 6:41 am ((PST))

Snowy will be fine with the bones in the chicken. If he's not up to
crunching through all the bones yet it's ok. With newbie dogs the
problem is their jaw strength needs to be built up not that the bone is
too hard. As long as you don't give super dense bones like cow femurs
Snowy's teeth will be fine.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "shefy7" <shefy7@...> wrote:

> just wanted to make sure this will be ok to feed snowy? (he's 20
> pounds and can barely fit a tennis ball in his mouth..) i don't
> want him getting any cracked teeth...

Messages in this topic (4)
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2b. Re: Feeding whole chicken tomorrow, last question ! :)
Posted by: "mmc2315" m.chelap@sbcglobal.net mmc2315
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:03 am ((PST))

Hi, we haven't fed a whole chicken yet, but we've fed our little 10# cairn terrier mix chicken
quarters (thigh and leg) and bone-in chicken breast, no problem.

Good luck,

Michelle

Messages in this topic (4)
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3a. Re: math help, please and thank you!
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 6:46 am ((PST))

I guess that would depend on how much each cube weighs. 10% of the
weekly diet would be roughly 3/4lb. You could either weigh the cubes
and see how many you need or you could start with 3/4lb organs before
you chop them up, or you could wing it. I'd go for winging it.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "spricketysprock" <jess.hamway@...>
wrote:

> Could anyone tell me around how many cubes a week would suffice for a
> dog his weight? He's a senior and I want to make sure he's getting
> all his nutrients without going overboard (he gets plenty of meat
> variety).

Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: math help, please and thank you!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:22 am ((PST))

"spricketysprock" <jess.hamway@...> wrote:
My dog is
> 69 pounds and eats about a pound or a bit over a day. For organs
I've
> been getting liver and kidney, chopping it up, and freezing pieces
in
> ice cube trays. Could anyone tell me around how many cubes a week
> would suffice for a dog his weight?
*****
If you want to get down to brass tacks, it depends on how big the
cubes are. I have made ice cubes that are two ounces each and I have
made teensy ice cubes that are maybe an ounce each. If your ice
cubes are "normal" size, my guess is they measure two ounces if you
fill them full. But that's volume not weight, so like so what.

See how unnecessarily complicated life gets when you try to measure
things out?

I think 10 cubes a week are fine. If this amount generates loose
stools and you don't want to see loose stools, back off to seven
cubes.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. FEEDING DOG TWICE AS RECOMMENDED
Posted by: "bel_the" bel_the@yahoo.com bel_the
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:03 am ((PST))

hello rawfeeders. i'm just curious, if i feed my dog twice as much as
recommended, do i have to feed my dog the next day?
for example, as per calculation, my dog has to consume 500 grams of
protein daily. now, if i feed 1000 grams today, should i still have to
feed (or skip feeding) him the next day?
thanks.
BEL

Messages in this topic (3)
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4b. Re: FEEDING DOG TWICE AS RECOMMENDED
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:34 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "bel_the" <bel_the@...> wrote:
>
> hello rawfeeders. i'm just curious, if i feed my dog twice as
> much as recommended, do i have to feed my dog the next day?
> for example, as per calculation, my dog has to consume 500
> grams of protein daily. now, if i feed 1000 grams today, should
> i still have to feed (or skip feeding) him the next day?

It depends on how long you have been raw feeding and what your past
feeding habits were. You can do what you propose but I suggest you
build up to it gradually, not just all of a sudden. Feeding large
meals suddenly can cause digestive problems. Several people here
feed every other day on a regular basis.

Also, your reasoning is a little off about another thing. You are
not feeding pure protein. You are feeding somewhere around 20%
protein. The rest is mostly water and fat. If you feed your dog
1000 grams of food, only about 200 grams is protein.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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4c. Re: FEEDING DOG TWICE AS RECOMMENDED
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:46 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "bel_the" <bel_the@...> wrote:
>
> hello rawfeeders. i'm just curious, if i feed my dog twice as much as
> recommended, do i have to feed my dog the next day?
*****
No. This is how I generally feed my dogs; sometimes more than twice
the "daily allotment". Sometimes I skip a day, then feed small amounts
the day following that.

If you daily feed twice the appropriate amount, you will have a fat
dog.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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5a. De-feathering poultry
Posted by: "Jane Boswell" famtimes@blazenetme.net famtimes2001
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:03 am ((PST))

Hello,

A friend of mine just dropped by and asked
me if I'll take fresh game birds - ducks, geese
(Mergansers sp?) whole - meaning feathers and
all. I wasn't about to turn down anything. He
bird-hunts regularly and actually goes out
with the State Fish & Game people to shoot Mergansers
that disturb the Salmon. They always throw
these away he said. He also doesn't keep all the ducks
he shoots - some are too small I guess. He's also
going to give me the carcasses - legs and all
after he just cuts the breasts off ducks, geese
and pheasants. I was elated, to say the least.

Anyway, my question is: does anyone know
where I can learn how to pull the feathers out
of a game bird?

Jane Boswell

Messages in this topic (4)
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5b. Re: De-feathering poultry
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:34 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Jane Boswell" <famtimes@...> wrote:
>
> Anyway, my question is: does anyone know
> where I can learn how to pull the feathers out
> of a game bird?

Just take them in your hand and pull straight back and they will come
out. :) I THINK if you soak them in hot watter, they come out
easier.

I know some who feed whole chickens with feathers on and let the dogs
defeather them. I think this would best be done outside. :) :) :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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5c. Re: De-feathering poultry
Posted by: "Jane Boswell" famtimes@blazenetme.net famtimes2001
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:13 am ((PST))

>
> Just take them in your hand and pull straight back and they will come
> out. :) I THINK if you soak them in hot watter, they come out
> easier.

Thanks! I knew it had to be something logical and simple. I'm not sure
I'm up to letting my dogs do it. I can see the neighbors now...

Jane

Messages in this topic (4)
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5d. Re: De-feathering poultry
Posted by: "judy tallant" judy@tallant.com judyltallant
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:13 am ((PST))

When I was a farm girl, I butchered a lot of chickens. We removed
feathers quite easily by dipping the whole bird in a canner filled
with scalding hot water, for about 30-60 seconds. The feathers
literally wiped off - we only had to tweezer a couple of little hair
type feathers here and there - for our palette. But you wouldn't need
to do that for the dogs. We did this with very freshly killed birds,
so I don't know if it works the same way for birds that have been
dead a while.

On Nov 28, 2007, at 6:55 AM, Jane Boswell wrote:

> Anyway, my question is: does anyone know
> where I can learn how to pull the feathers out
> of a game bird?

Judy Tallant
Snohomish, Wa

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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6a. Re: Vomiting after meals
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:09 am ((PST))

I have some additional questions as well.

Is he eating too quickly or bolting his food?

Is there much ripping/tearing/crunching involved in his meals or is it
more like crunch/swallow?

Andrea

On Nov 27, 2007, at 5:21 PM, sphynxlover2 wrote:
> .,....Other than the vomiting, he is acting perfectly normal. He
> has been
> having bowel movements normally, though they are smaller, urinating
> normally, happily taking his daily walks, etc. I know that he's not
> going to starve to death from missing a few meals and he doesn't
> appear to have lost much if any weight, but it bothers me that this
> has become a recurring issue. Does anyone have any ideas that I
> might not have thought of (and I'll admit there are probably many,
> that's why I'm here!).

Messages in this topic (3)
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7a. Re: Cow Bones
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:13 am ((PST))

DM H <hawks.bluff@...> wrote:
>
> My dogs enjoy knuckle (soup) and marrow bones.
> They'll spend hours trying to get every little scrap
> off. :-)
>
> Donna
*****
Donna, these are the kind of bones that break, fracture and wear down
dog teeth. Spending hours on the weight-bearing bones of cows is how
dogs get themselves into trouble. I recommend you rethink letting your
dogs work at length on any bone and especially on what we without
affection call "wreck bones."

There are other ways to keep your dogs amused.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (12)
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7b. Re: Cow Bones
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:39 am ((PST))

"windmilldairy" <drwindmill@...> wrote:>
> Besides the ribs, what cow/beef bones are safe for dogs?
*****
The easiest and safest default answer is: None.

However, some dogs do okay on meaty necks. Not slices of the neck,
the whole neck, or a length of neck cut into two, like a French
bagette.
Not much meat but enough to work for, and the knobby bones can be
eaten to some extent.

Additionally, a whole foot of good size while not food at all can be
a good source of fat and connective tissue as well as a reasonably
safe workout. Lots of connective tissue.

Oh, and some dogs do well on beef brisket bone, which is mostly fat
and bone but for some reason the bone appears fairly edible. Of
course, the problem with this option is finding beef brisket bone. I
know the SoCal buying group used to get them; I have no idea where or
how since I've not been able to find them through other sources.

The rest--pfft.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (12)
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8a. Re: rawfeeding Deer meat
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:43 am ((PST))

Candee Brey <candee@...> wrote:
> > 1. What are the chances or is it possible for Dogs to contract
> > Lyme disease from eating infected deer?
> 2. What about CWS?
*****
If the deer has ticks, freezing will kill them. Dogs do not get Lyme
Disease from eating meat.

And dogs are not affected by CWD; though cats can be.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (22)
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8b. Re: rawfeeding Deer meat
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:13 am ((PST))

"1. What are the chances or is it possible for Dogs to contract Lyme disease
from eating infected deer?
2. What about CWS?"

I've fed venison for 2 yrs now almost 100% except when I run out in the
summer; sometimes it's not been frozen before and never had any problems.
We have 4 gsds, 2 F 2 M and no problems on a little ripe venison, unfrozen
venison, hair mixed in sometimes (I try to pull the hairy pieces out) but in
2 yrs not one ailment. And I feed almost the whole deer in portions except
the leg bones and I don't usually have any heads.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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Messages in this topic (22)
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9a. Re: Beef heart and other meats
Posted by: "Erika" Erika@redangelbordeaux.com redangelbordeaux
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:58 am ((PST))

Michael Moore <m-tak@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
I do this frequently, with no problems. But, do I remember that you/your dogs are fairly new to rawfeeding? If not, I apologize. But if so, you may want to add in heart and lamb in small amounts to meals you know they do well on. Both those, IME, could cause very loose stools if given as entire meals to newbie dogs.

Thanks for the advice!

Yes my dogs are relativley new to RAW about 6 weeks in now, but I have already introduced pork, buffalo, chicken, turkey, beef, and lamb with only the occasional runny stool. Really I only had problems in the first 2-3 weeks. I have also given them beef liver, chicken and turkey hearts and gizzards with no problem.

Actually I had previously had a problem with the squirts with my gang for the previous year! I tried all kinds of "premium brand" dog foods, spent hundreds if not over a thousand dollars on testing and different antibiotics, probiotics etc. and nothing was helping. This is along with an allergy problem in 2 of my dogs is what prompted me to switch to RAW.

Now we sleep throught the night without having to let the dogs outside! So for me a little "loose stool" is nothing compared to what I WAS dealing with, lol! 6 mastiffs with the runs is deffinatley not fun. :(

I'll introduce this large percentage of heart gradually though and be sure to add it to chicken and make the first few meals a little extra boney to help with any loose poopies just to be sure.

Thanks again!
Erika

,_._,___

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10a. Three pounds/day for 100 lb dog
Posted by: "Hanne" hanne@hajo.us halojo45
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:59 am ((PST))

3#/day may be way too much food.
My 140-pound Berner boy gets about 2#/day, which is less than 1.5% of his
total body weight - and he is a working dog. He pulls carts (giving
children rides, as well as in parades and competition), as well as a sled in
the Winter, does Obedience and Rally. And he is as solid as a rock. Since
he is 4yo now, I found that he needs less food compared to when he was 2yo.
My 85-pound Pyr girl also gets 2#/day, which is almost 2.5% of her body
weight. She is 3yo, more hyper and active, and works it off at a different
rate, while Blaze's metabolism is not as active.
The amount of food intake really depends on each inidividual animal. It's
easy to make adjustments - just look at your dog and adjust the amount
accordingly.
Hanne,
'Blaze', Silverlite's Fire on the Amazon, DD, CGC, TDIA, TT (Bernese
Mountain Dog)
and 'Zima', Urban's Platinum (Great Pyrenees rescue)

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11a. Re: Duck Hearts
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:00 am ((PST))

I haven't fed duck hearts as a complete meal yet, but I use them to offset an otherwise boney piece of meat (duck leg/wing/back/neck/etc). I have used them as 75% of a meal before, but not straight off the bat. For a dog that rarely has digestive upset and is used to heart meals, feeding a whole meal of duck heart should be fine (if they're used to duck...).

Sonja

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12a. Re: Beef Heart? and other meats :)
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:00 am ((PST))

"Should I trim the fat or leave it on and serve it up as is?"

I leave mine as is unless you're cutting back on fat for overweight dogs.

"Is the artery portion a source or cartelidge that is good to feed to a dog
with displasia problems?"

I have no idea, but I always feed the whole heart, arteries and all.

"Is it ok to feed the beef heart as the "meaty" portion of most meals and
the turkey necks and lamb breast(bone in) as the RMB portion of the meal?"

Absolutely - heart is a muscle meat and counts as red meat. It's a very
good source of red meat.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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13a. Re: Salmon Oil/How much???
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:13 am ((PST))

"On the other end of the spectrum, I have two German Shepherds.."

Our 4 gsds are between 85-97lbs and get 4 - 1200mg fish oil caps drained
daily - in the winter they get 2; in the summer I tried getting away with 2,
but I noticed a big difference in their shedding when I put them back on 4.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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14. Poultry Backs
Posted by: "nkayl" doglover72@gmail.com nkayl
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:13 am ((PST))

Hello,

Yesterday I found a great deal on Turkey backs. All were half off.
Yay!! Anyway, my question is do these have enough meat on them for a
Pug? They looked fairly meaty to me, but I'm not sure. I don't want
to be starving my two Puggers. Thanks!

Natalie

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15. Dog with persistent diarrhea
Posted by: "marlena_adema" marlena_adema@yahoo.ca marlena_adema
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:13 am ((PST))

I have searched the archives, but haven't found out what to do for a
dog with persistent diarrhea. My dog has been eating raw for 1.5 mos
now and has been doing very good with it. Sometimes she's had loose
stools, but removing the chicken skin and fat has always firmed them
up.

But now, it is explosive liquid and a yellowy-green color. Truth is,
I don't think it's the food. She was being looked after by some
friends while I was away, and apparently she had been drinking sea
water. Obviously, not giving her access to the beach is the first
step. But in the meantime, what do I do? Shall I fast her for 24
hours? Should I give her something herbal? Do I just continue to
give her skinless/fatless chicken?

Thanks kindly for any advice,
Marlena

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16a. bare chicken bones (was Re: Feeding large bone?
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:13 am ((PST))

Hi Sarah,

The re-freezing is ok, but you might want to reconsider feeding naked
chicken bones. If you know your dog is a careful eater, it might be
fine. But for a newbie, I'd be more cautious (I'm on the more cautious
side, anyway...). I fed my dog a whole rabbit once and there was a
little bit of boney stuff left and I fed that a couple days later and
he choked. He can tend to gulp (this was earlier on when he was worse
about that, too), but I learned a couple reasons why this wasn't the
safest choice. It was not a good size (not small enough to go down
easily, and not big enough for him to think he needed to take it
apart). I also fed it alone, just as a small snack--so he was more
hungry/not already satisfied by eating the rest of the rabbit (or some
more meat of some kind...).

I probably could be explaining this better...A whole chicken frame
would be safer (although too boney for regular feeding without extra
meat added) because the dog has to work at it and they're in charge of
how it gets dismantled and they have a better sense of what's going
down the hatch. They're also fuller by the time they get to any
smaller pieces and are less likely to gulp bad-sized pieces.

If I were you, I'd toss any iffy bones or save them til you have more
experience seeing how your dog eats and have a better idea of what will
work for him/her.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sarah" <hecarte@...> wrote:
> Also, is it ok to refreeze things for dogs? I was de-boning some
> chicken for our evening meal that had been frozen, but I re-froze the
> bones to give to the dog along with some meatymeat. I just wanted to
> check it was ok to do this.

Messages in this topic (3)
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