Feed Pets Raw Food: [rawfeeding] Digest Number 12328

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Poultry Backs
From: Andrea
1b. Re: Poultry Backs
From: costrowski75
1c. Re: Poultry Backs
From: nkayl
1d. Re: Poultry Backs
From: Morledzep@aol.com
1e. Re: Poultry Backs
From: costrowski75
1f. Re: Poultry Backs
From: Morledzep@aol.com

2a. Re: Cow Bones
From: swilken61
2b. Re: Cow Bones
From: costrowski75
2c. Re: Cow Bones
From: merril Woolf

3a. Re: Little update re: introducing new protein
From: recyclerat@aol.com

4a. Re: Dog with persistent diarrhea
From: Tina Berry
4b. Re: Dog with persistent diarrhea
From: Giselle
4c. Re: Dog with persistent diarrhea
From: costrowski75

5a. bare chicken bones (was Re: Feeding large bone?
From: Sarah

6a. Re: De-feathering poultry
From: costrowski75

7a. Re: New - Intro - dog with possible kidney disease
From: Sandee Lee

8. Volume of stools?
From: mozookpr

9a. HELP A FIRST TIMER....
From: amber
9b. Re: HELP A FIRST TIMER....
From: Morledzep@aol.com
9c. Re: HELP A FIRST TIMER....
From: Sandee Lee

10a. Re: math help, please and thank you!
From: spricketysprock

11a. Re: Support when making the switch?
From: johkemp
11b. Re: Support when making the switch?
From: merril Woolf

12a. Re: Vomiting after meals
From: Casey Post
12b. Meaty deer bone supply in Mont. Co. Md.
From: steven muse

Messages
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1a. Re: Poultry Backs
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:34 am ((PST))

Not by themselves, but you can add some meaty meat to them to make a
better meal. By themselves you'll probably end up with rock hard white
poos. Over time you want to average out mostly meat and only a little
bone.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "nkayl" <doglover72@...> wrote:

> Yesterday I found a great deal on Turkey backs. All were half off.
> Yay!! Anyway, my question is do these have enough meat on them for a
> Pug?

Messages in this topic (7)
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1b. Re: Poultry Backs
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:16 am ((PST))

"nkayl" <doglover72@...> wrote:

> Yesterday I found a great deal on Turkey backs. All were half off.
> Yay!! Anyway, my question is do these have enough meat on them for a
> Pug? They looked fairly meaty to me, but I'm not sure.
*****
Like chicken backs, turkey backs are not what you'd call meaty bones.
A good processor gets all the meat off; even a hasty trimmer can take
off most of the meat.

But--also like chicken backs--they are good for chomping. So two
options. If your puglets are good with bony meals, offer a turkey back
after and before meaty meals. Or if they can't handle really bony
meals, feed the back with added meat; if that's too much food for one
sitting take the back away when you think enough's enough.

I used to be able to get whole turkey backs. For my retrievers, these
were pretty good eating (maybe two pounds each), as long as I added
some meat. If the backs you found are sliced into 2" or 3" sections,
you can more easily add meat to the meal. But make sure your pugs are
okay with sawed slices and relatively small pieces.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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1c. Re: Poultry Backs
Posted by: "nkayl" doglover72@gmail.com nkayl
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:47 pm ((PST))

Thank you!! These backs were about 6 or so inches long. The Pugs are
great at eating the bones. I will add more meat when they get the
backs. Now if only my Pit/Lab mix would eat poultry. :)

Natalie

Messages in this topic (7)
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1d. Re: Poultry Backs
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:42 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 11/28/2007 10:13:42 AM Pacific Standard Time,
doglover72@gmail.com writes:

They looked fairly meaty to me, but I'm not sure.

Natalie,

they are backs and by their very nature are NOT meaty. But they are BIG and
from what i hear BIG is a good thing when you're feeding pugs. Maybe give
them one night as a bony meal and an all meat meal the following night?

i DO feed turkey backs to by big dogs. they often go on sale for $.20 - 30
lb after thanksgiving and christmas and for that price i can find some cheap
meat for a followup meal.

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (7)
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1e. Re: Poultry Backs
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:51 pm ((PST))

Morledzep@... wrote:
they often go on sale for $.20 - 30
> lb after thanksgiving and christmas and for that price i can find
some cheap
> meat for a followup meal.
*****
Grumble, grumble.
I USED to be able to get these things for .39/lb, up until maybe '04.
No problem. A local chain used to produce them regularly. What a joy.

Then raw feeding got more popular and I had to act quickly to beat
those who wanted to GRIND these lovely whole backs. GRIND!!

And then, if that's not insult enough, the chain had to stop producing
them altogether because they were unable to label which backs came from
minimally processed birds and which came from enhanced birds. Another
source dried up. <sigh>
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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1f. Re: Poultry Backs
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:00 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 11/28/2007 1:51:38 PM Pacific Standard Time,
Chriso75@AOL.COM writes:

Chris,

the Ralph's store at Towngate parts out the fresh minimally processed birds
shortly after thanksgiving and christmas and sells the parts CHEAP.

I'm heading over there after work on Friday to start stocking up..

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (7)
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2a. Re: Cow Bones
Posted by: "swilken61" powrfemme@aol.com swilken61
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:42 am ((PST))

Please define "at length". My girls knaw on lamb shoulder bones,
sometimes for a half hour. They are 10 and 15 lb terrier mixes.

thanks,
stephany

Messages in this topic (15)
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2b. Re: Cow Bones
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:21 am ((PST))

"swilken61" <powrfemme@...> wrote:>
> Please define "at length". My girls knaw on lamb shoulder bones,
> sometimes for a half hour. They are 10 and 15 lb terrier mixes.
*****
Well, if you are referring to my "at length", I was referring to the
OPs comment that her dogs amuse themselves for hours. "For hours"
is "at length" to me. YMMV.

However, lamb shoulder bones, IMO, are not rec bones, they are edible
bones that maybe sometimes just don't get et. My 10lb cat likes to
gnaw away on lamb shoulder bones. These are soft bones from young
animals that did not have a lot of weight to lug around, nor for very
long.

Lamb shoulder bones for half an hour sounds okay to me. But remember:
sh** happens.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (15)
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2c. Re: Cow Bones
Posted by: "merril Woolf" merril@kentfieldwhippets.com whippetsrus2002
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:05 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "windmilldairy" <drwindmill@...> wrote:
>
> Besides the ribs, what cow/beef bones are safe for dogs?
>
> Pat

Cow bones are very big and very hard so if you have cows for them to eat, try and make sure
there is a huge amount of meat on the bones so much of the meal is from the meat they rip
and tear off the bone.
Mine do gnaw on big cow bones, but they always come with plenty of meat to start with.
A hungry dog can cause some dental damage if they get too frantic trying to get small bits
of meat and grissle off a essentially meatless cow bone.

Mine are getting cow bones for dinner today but they are very meaty. :-))

Merril

Messages in this topic (15)
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3a. Re: Little update re: introducing new protein
Posted by: "recyclerat@aol.com" recyclerat@aol.com syrusmommy
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:42 am ((PST))

Thanks again to everyone who takes the time to answer questions over and
over. It's
really helpful!

Michelle
****************************
Amen!

.heather.

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Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. Re: Dog with persistent diarrhea
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:42 am ((PST))

"Obviously, not giving her access to the beach is the first step. But in the
meantime, what do I do? Shall I fast her for 24 hours? Should I give her
something herbal? Do I just continue to give her skinless/fatless chicken?"

Sounds like a reaction to the sea water. I've always had success using pure
100% raw pumkin for loose stools. A couple of tablespoons with her meals.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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4b. Re: Dog with persistent diarrhea
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:44 am ((PST))

Hi, Marlena!
Drinking sea water can be fatal for dogs, and humans;

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/msaltwater.html
http://iccoventry.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100localnews/content_objectid=13450879_method=full_siteid=50003_headline=-Swim-kills-family-pet-name_page.html#story_continue
*http://tinyurl.com/ypss3g
*http://www.dogguide.net/water-dogs.php*
*http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1214573

I would fast your dog for a day, give plenty of LOW sodium low fat broth,
and get him to the VET for an eval ASAP.

And never let those friends watch my dog again!

After she's been to the vet, I'd dose her with some Slippery Elm Bark
meatballs for a couple days, and gradually reintroduce leaner meats that
have soft bones before resuming her regular diet.
*http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/145285

*TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On Nov 28, 2007 12:36 PM, marlena_adema <marlena_adema@yahoo.ca> wrote:

> I have searched the archives, but haven't found out what to do for a
> dog with persistent diarrhea.
>

> <snip>
>
> But now, it is explosive liquid and a yellowy-green color. Truth is,
> I don't think it's the food. She was being looked after by some
> friends while I was away, and apparently she had been drinking sea
> water. Obviously, not giving her access to the beach is the first
> step. But in the meantime, what do I do? Shall I fast her for 24
> hours? Should I give her something herbal? Do I just continue to
> give her skinless/fatless chicken?
>
> Thanks kindly for any advice,
> Marlena
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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4c. Re: Dog with persistent diarrhea
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:32 am ((PST))

"Tina Berry" <k9baron@...> wrote:
>> Sounds like a reaction to the sea water. I've always had success
using pure
> 100% raw pumkin for loose stools. A couple of tablespoons with her
meals.
*****
I am not a fan of or user of pumpkin. If there are loose stools, the
cause of the loose stool should be identified and dietary changes
should be made accordingly. Loose stools are almost always a result of
too much. It's easy to fix too much. At the very least I choose not
to add an inappropriate food to an already bolluxed up digestive system.

However, diarrhea is not about too much food. It's probably not about
too much sea water. The description to me suggests a bacterial
overgrowth, from drinking sea water or infection or virus. Adding
pumpkin to this problem will just result in pumpkin squirts.
Persistent diarrhea is dehydrating: pumpkin (any fiber) absorbs water.
A dehydrated dog does not need further dehydrating.

I would think encouraging the dog to drink (broth maybe) while
withholding food would be basic. Parvaid might be useful, perhaps
Pedialyte. A conversation with the vet might not be wrong either.

No pumpkin.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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5a. bare chicken bones (was Re: Feeding large bone?
Posted by: "Sarah" hecarte@hotmail.com sarah_uk_2000_2001
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:43 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laurie Swanson" <laurie@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Sarah,
>
> The re-freezing is ok, but you might want to reconsider feeding naked
> chicken bones. If you know your dog is a careful eater, it might be
> fine. But for a newbie, I'd be more cautious (I'm on the more
cautious
> side, anyway...).

Yes, I'll save them for a while I think. He is really good at
crunching up chicken bones so far, but they have had meat on them. I
suppose I could hold it for him and see what he does or is this not a
good idea?

Thanks, Sarah (UK)

Messages in this topic (4)
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6a. Re: De-feathering poultry
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 10:56 am ((PST))

"Jane Boswell" <famtimes@...> wrote:
> A friend of mine just dropped by and asked
> me if I'll take fresh game birds - ducks, geese
> (Mergansers sp?) whole - meaning feathers and
> all. I wasn't about to turn down anything.
*****
Yes! Free is good. Free game is gooder! Way to go.

You don't have to defrock the flock for your dog's benefit, but if
you really would rather, there are several ways.

The for-human-consumption method is tedious and doesn't produce a
very pretty picture unless a de-featherer tumbler is used. Pricey.
Sort of undoes the free part. You can also dunk the birds in boiling
water, not something I particularly want to do.

The for-dog-consumption method is you stand over a garbage can and
pull the feathers out, with the grain. You'll get most of the
feathers, certainly enough so that they shouldn't be offputting to
your dog.

Don't forget to check for shotgun pellets. While the F&W guys are
almost assuredly using non-lead shot, the pellets may harm your dog's
teeth.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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7a. Re: New - Intro - dog with possible kidney disease
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:26 am ((PST))

Tammy,

I do understand your paranoia after loosing a 7-year-old Dane....been there,
done that! :(

But were there abnormalities in the bloodwork that motivated you to check
further? Do you have the blood and urinalysis results?
You may not even have an issue here...regardless, raw is definitely going to
be the best for this guy.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Pundah" <Pundah@comcast.net>

> Thanks everyone for the tips. Yes, Sandee - we ran blood work in August.
Long story. After we lost our Dane Reb in July, I was frightened and
paranoid and told their regular vet to do full work ups. They did blood
panels only and I was ignorant about urinalysis. Still feeling uneasy I
interviewed more vets and this one wanted the urinalysis as well. I will
definitely check out these other resources. Thank you all!

Messages in this topic (7)
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8. Volume of stools?
Posted by: "mozookpr" mozookpr@yahoo.com mozookpr
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:09 pm ((PST))

My apologies, as I am certain this has been addressed before, but
searching on stools, runny or otherwise, has produced such an
overwhelimg number of hits that it makes my head spin!

We are now on day three of rawfeeding, I have started with chicken as
recommended. Foxy's stools have been normal, although smaller
(yay!), but Sophie's are not only runny, which I kind of expected,
but much less in volume. Should I be concerned about this, or is it
just a result of her actually digesting more of her food? She was
pooping 3-4 BIG poops a day on Wellness kibble, so the decrease has
been pretty dramatic. She is a 20 lb. Sheltie puppy, approaching 5
months, and is fed twice a day, most of a chicken quarter at one
meal, a bit less at the other. She seems fine, other that the tiny,
runny (and, I regret to say, frequent) stools. She did sometimes
have the same issues on kibble, too, so could be she just has a
touchy tummy and will take longer to adjust? Like I said, the tiny
volume concerns me more than the runniness: I want to make sure all
that is going in...is actually coming OUT.

Other than this, all seems well. Both dogs loves their meals, and I
enjoy watching them eat with such enthusiasm. Foxy doesn't much like
eating in his crate, but it is a must, if I don't want raw chicken
parts all over the couch.

Thanks for your patience and advice!

Wendy, Foxy, and Sophie

Messages in this topic (1)
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9a. HELP A FIRST TIMER....
Posted by: "amber" AMBEECHY@AOL.COM ambeechy3676
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:41 pm ((PST))

I have been reading about going raw for a few months now and I would
like to take the first step but I need ALOT of help. I have two pit
bulls. Piper is my female. She is 22 months and about 55-60lbs and has
food allegies that i haven't been able to figure out... Milenko is my
male. He is 8 months old and about 35-40lbs with no allegies.

I went to the grocery store and got some chicken breast, turkey backs,
turkey knecks, pork tails and beef marrow bones. I figured I would
start with the plain boneless chicken breast for a few days and then a
breast on the bone...is that good to start with? Should I take the skin
off the chicken thats on the bone? is there anything I need to remove
or watch out for? After two weeks of chicken I thought if all was well
I would move to the turkey.

ANY HELP WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED!
- AMBER

Messages in this topic (3)
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9b. Re: HELP A FIRST TIMER....
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:00 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 11/28/2007 1:41:59 PM Pacific Standard Time,
AMBEECHY@AOL.COM writes:

Amber,

why buy chicken parts? just buy whole chickens, they are cheaper and easier
and less likely to be enhanced. my male pit bull and the other similarly
sized dogs here eat about half a chicken at a sitting, sometimes 1/4 chickens if i
have to make the chickens stretch further.

no need to start with boneless.. just feed chicken the way you find it, with
the bones and the skin.. IF after a week or so their loose stools don't
subside (there WILL be some as with any diet change), reduce the size of the meals
and/or remove the chicken skin, though reducing the size of the meals will
probably be the answer.

you need to rethink your turkey part purchases.. unless you have meaty meat
to add to necks and backs, their best use is to make soup. The same goes for
beef marrow bones. the fat in the marrow will cause loose stools and the bone
around the marrow will break teeth.. no matter which way ya slice it, it's not
wolf chow.

think MEAT on a bone.. NOT bone with some meat. you want to feed primarily
meat, with a little edible bone and some organs.

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (3)
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9c. Re: HELP A FIRST TIMER....
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:43 pm ((PST))

Hi Amber,

You can start right out with bone-in chicken...just buy the entire chicken
and cut into quarters. No need to remove skin unless they begin have
problems such as loose stools you aren't able to get under control.

Turkey backs and necks are far too bony and necks can be a choking hazard
for some dogs. You'll have to see how your dogs do with them. Either way
you'll need to add more meat. Again, you might be better off just buying
the entire bird, especially if you can still find some on sale now or closer
to the Christmas holidays.

Pig tails are probably a nice treat, but not a meal...and you don't want
marrow bones at all.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "amber" <AMBEECHY@AOL.COM>

Messages in this topic (3)
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10a. Re: math help, please and thank you!
Posted by: "spricketysprock" jess.hamway@gmail.com spricketysprock
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:08 pm ((PST))

Thanks guys. I would weigh it but have no scale. I'll stick with 10
cubes and see what happens.

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> "spricketysprock" <jess.hamway@> wrote:
> My dog is
> > 69 pounds and eats about a pound or a bit over a day. For organs
> I've
> > been getting liver and kidney, chopping it up, and freezing pieces
> in
> > ice cube trays. Could anyone tell me around how many cubes a week
> > would suffice for a dog his weight?
> *****
> If you want to get down to brass tacks, it depends on how big the
> cubes are. I have made ice cubes that are two ounces each and I have
> made teensy ice cubes that are maybe an ounce each. If your ice
> cubes are "normal" size, my guess is they measure two ounces if you
> fill them full. But that's volume not weight, so like so what.
>
> See how unnecessarily complicated life gets when you try to measure
> things out?
>
> I think 10 cubes a week are fine. If this amount generates loose
> stools and you don't want to see loose stools, back off to seven
> cubes.
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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11a. Re: Support when making the switch?
Posted by: "johkemp" johkemp@yahoo.com.au johkemp
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:03 pm ((PST))

I think most of us have received the same reactions that you have when
we switched to raw!! I think that many people feel that we are judging
them personally when we disagree with their choices.

There was another response that covered just about everything that I
wanted to say. People will always have an opinion on what you do -
especially family. They will feel free to comment on your dog, your
kids, your weight, your housekeeping (or in my case lack of it :-) and
even your choice of partner!

Do your research so you feel comfortable with your choice and just
agree to disagree!! You and your dogs are the ones that will benefit
and as they say "The proof is in the pudding."

Cheers,

Messages in this topic (15)
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11b. Re: Support when making the switch?
Posted by: "merril Woolf" merril@kentfieldwhippets.com whippetsrus2002
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:23 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "johkemp" <johkemp@...> wrote:
>
>
> I think most of us have received the same reactions that you have when
> we switched to raw!! I think that many people feel that we are judging
> them personally when we disagree with their choices.

> Do your research so you feel comfortable with your choice and just
> agree to disagree!! You and your dogs are the ones that will benefit
> and as they say "The proof is in the pudding."
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jo
>

This same time next year will be your vindication.
I always let my dogs do the talking. If a proper diet is working, it will show on the dogs.
When you have your family/friends over next year for TG, you might find those same nay-
sayers quite speechless. They'll look at your healthy dog/s and not be able to say much
in the negative.

I get ribbed by a few about my raw fed dogs, but they can't argue about how they look or
run. Many other dog owners with working dogs either already feed raw or have after
seeing how well the raw dogs do in competition.
And having dogs live healthily into old age, is, as they say - priceless.

Merril

Messages in this topic (15)
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12a. Re: Vomiting after meals
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:52 pm ((PST))

> Other than the vomiting, he is acting perfectly normal.

Rachelle,

If he were a cat, I'd suggest trying his food at room temperature. And
thinking on it, I'm still going to suggest feeding him some room temperature
food and see how he does. I know you've done the "warming under water"
thing, but that'll still leave a chilly bit in the middle and if it's the
cold setting him off...

An issue like this that crops up for no apparent reason and hangs around a
while is enough to make me go, "Hmmm." and schedule a vet visit for a good
once over look-see just to make sure that there isn't something else amiss
and this is just a symptom.

Casey

Messages in this topic (5)
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12b. Meaty deer bone supply in Mont. Co. Md.
Posted by: "steven muse" musesteven@yahoo.com musesteven
Date: Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:32 pm ((PST))

Great source of meaty deer bones in MO CO, Md (off of I-270)! I found a deer processor (butcher) that I've been getting 10 gal bucket's (approx 25 +/- lbs.) full of meaty deer bones and scraps (chunks of meat & fat). Meat is free, but the bucket costs $10. (since your not allowed to sell game meat). If you live in the MO CO, Md area near I-270 e-mail me at westvasteve@aol and I'll get you his info. My dogs love em'.

If you don't live in the area, call your local coop or ask the local hunter where the closest deer processor is and ask him for his scraps.

steve

---------------------------------
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Feed Pets Raw Food

Wednesday, November 28, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12328

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