Feed Pets Raw Food: Jul 8, 2007

Sunday, July 8, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11778

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Feeding Squirrel
From: Giselle
1b. Re: Feeding Squirrel
From: carnesbill

2a. Re: Need Help with Feeding!! Dog scarfed down big piece of steak.
From: Giselle
2b. Re: Need Help with Feeding!! Dog scarfed down big piece of steak.
From: Lyse Garant
2c. Re: Need Help with Feeding!! Dog scarfed down big piece of steak.
From: Eve Rosenzweig

3a. Digestion differences
From: nwohiopma
3b. Re: Digestion differences
From: costrowski75
3c. Re: Digestion differences
From: carnesbill

4a. Re: leg of lamb and chicken questions
From: Mona
4b. Re: leg of lamb and chicken questions
From: Mona

5. runny eyes
From: Vicki T

6a. Re: Moral Support and Feedback
From: inavioletworld

7a. Re: What to try next -more specifically
From: Suzie G
7b. Re: What to try next -more specifically
From: Suzie G

8. By Products
From: Lee Schlesinger

9a. Beef bones
From: sallynbob221
9b. Re: Beef bones
From: Laurie Swanson
9c. Re: Beef bones
From: hoover1203

10. burying food for later?
From: pelirojita

11a. Re: Eggs and other extras
From: Sheryl Edelen

12a. Re: New to group: be gentle
From: Nathalie Poulin
12b. Re: New to group: be gentle
From: arnereil

13. Agression
From: Lee

14. behaviour changes after eating certain foods ? & itching
From: Lisa S.

15a. Re: how much?
From: Debi C

Messages
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1a. Re: Feeding Squirrel
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 3:45 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Rob & Karen!
AFAIK, you should feed it. Probably be a good idea to freeze them
solid for a week or two to kill any possible parasites.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> My husband & I are new members to the group, so forgive what I'm sure
> is a question that's been asked in the past.
<snip>
> What's the word on squirrel? Thanks.
>
> Rob & Karen
> Bear, Daisy, Peaches, Myles & Mitzi
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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1b. Re: Feeding Squirrel
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 5:24 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "akita6691" <kyharris@...> wrote:
>
> What's the word on squirrel? Thanks.

My dogs AND cats eat squirrels at every opportunity. Of course they
have to catch them first but they do pretty regularly. The cats seem
to be better than the dogs at catching them but they usually only eat
half a squirrel and a dog will eat the other half.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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2a. Re: Need Help with Feeding!! Dog scarfed down big piece of steak.
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 4:11 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Eve!
If the steak hasn't been horked up by now, it probably is well on its
way to being digested. NP ; )

So, this was about 5 1/2 ounces of steak? I would feed much Bigger
portions and take it up when you judge he has eaten enough for a meal.
You can feed once a day, and let him eat a days worth of food.

A dog's digestion doesn't start in his mouth, the way a human's does.
They have no digestive enzymes in their saliva the way we do to begin
digesting their food until it hits the stomach. There, the gastric
juices are very strong, and can handle chunks of meat and bone. All a
dog needs to do is rip off a chunk small enough to fit down his
throat, and swallow, so that digestion can begin. If it doesn't fit or
sit right, he will hork it up and eat it again. NP. : )

Edible bones are a small, but important part of the whole prey model
raw diet, about 10%. Beef bones are problematic, even for large and
giant breeds. They are very dense and are mostly not edible. If you
feed a couple beef ribs or large neck pieces, he may be able to eat a
little bone after he strips off the meatymeat. Chicken, pork, turkey,
rabbit, lamb, etc. bones are mostly edible. Any part of a bone too
hard to be consumed can just be tossed out.

Its often easier to start feeding raw with chicken, because the bones
are softer and entirely consumable by even relatively small dogs. The
heart and gizzards that come with whole chickens are fed as muscle
meat. You can add a bit of liver (a pinky fingernail sized portion) to
some of your dogs meals now. If you want, you can start him out on
Game hens. These are even younger chickens with very soft bones.

Organ is another smaller, but important part of the raw diet, about
10%. About half of that should be liver of some sort.

Ditch the grain, veggies, and whatever else you are feeding this
little guy besides meat, edible bones and organs. Including
supplements. Salmon or Fish Body oil is the exception, this is a good
one to add, if you want.

I'd offer him his next raw meal tomorrow.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Hi,
> Any help would be greatly appreciated. I just fed
> my 17 lb pekingese a 1/3 lb of raw beef/steak (no
> bone) for the first time and he took two chews and
> swallowed the whole thing! I am freaking out big time!
<snip>
> Any help would be greatly appreciated. I really need
> some tips to get him started on chewing his food.
>
> Eve, NYC

Messages in this topic (4)
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2b. Re: Need Help with Feeding!! Dog scarfed down big piece of steak.
Posted by: "Lyse Garant" lyse_garant@yahoo.com lyse_garant
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 4:47 pm ((PDT))

Giselle, Laurie, Chris O.... what does NP mean?
Also, if a wolf came across a bowl of brown rice, would he not eat it readily???
I ask myself these questions while walking my precious terrier. Thank you all so much for all advice!

Giselle <megan.giselle@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi, Eve!
If the steak hasn't been horked up by now, it probably is well on its
way to being digested. NP ; )

Organ is another smaller, but important part of the raw diet, about
10%. About half of that should be liver of some sort.

I'd offer him his next raw meal tomorrow.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

Lyse

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (4)
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2c. Re: Need Help with Feeding!! Dog scarfed down big piece of steak.
Posted by: "Eve Rosenzweig" loulou_bean@yahoo.com loulou_bean
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 5:25 pm ((PDT))

Giselle,
Thanks so much for your detailed response. He seems to
be doing ok.
Just a couple of follow up questions:

I am going to feed him again tomorrow night. Do you
think there might be a chance he would still try and
gulp up the big piece? And how do I take the piece
away from him when I think he's had enough? I think he
might get very territorial over it.

So basically you're saying to give him a bigger than
normal piece of meat and I just should judge visually
when he's had the appropriate amount for his size and
take it away?

And at the end of the week I will try a quarter of a
chicken with the bone as well, but with his track
record this far, I am very nervous he may try and
scarf the bone down whole. Anything to avoid this?

And how many times a week should I give him bone? a
couple?

Thanks
Eve, NY

--- Giselle <megan.giselle@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi, Eve!
> If the steak hasn't been horked up by now, it
> probably is well on its
> way to being digested. NP ; )
>
> So, this was about 5 1/2 ounces of steak? I would
> feed much Bigger
> portions and take it up when you judge he has eaten
> enough for a meal.
> You can feed once a day, and let him eat a days
> worth of food.
>
> A dog's digestion doesn't start in his mouth, the
> way a human's does.
> They have no digestive enzymes in their saliva the
> way we do to begin
> digesting their food until it hits the stomach.
> There, the gastric
> juices are very strong, and can handle chunks of
> meat and bone. All a
> dog needs to do is rip off a chunk small enough to
> fit down his
> throat, and swallow, so that digestion can begin. If
> it doesn't fit or
> sit right, he will hork it up and eat it again. NP.
> : )
>
> Edible bones are a small, but important part of the
> whole prey model
> raw diet, about 10%. Beef bones are problematic,
> even for large and
> giant breeds. They are very dense and are mostly not
> edible. If you
> feed a couple beef ribs or large neck pieces, he may
> be able to eat a
> little bone after he strips off the meatymeat.
> Chicken, pork, turkey,
> rabbit, lamb, etc. bones are mostly edible. Any part
> of a bone too
> hard to be consumed can just be tossed out.
>
> Its often easier to start feeding raw with chicken,
> because the bones
> are softer and entirely consumable by even
> relatively small dogs. The
> heart and gizzards that come with whole chickens are
> fed as muscle
> meat. You can add a bit of liver (a pinky fingernail
> sized portion) to
> some of your dogs meals now. If you want, you can
> start him out on
> Game hens. These are even younger chickens with very
> soft bones.
>
> Organ is another smaller, but important part of the
> raw diet, about
> 10%. About half of that should be liver of some
> sort.
>
> Ditch the grain, veggies, and whatever else you are
> feeding this
> little guy besides meat, edible bones and organs.
> Including
> supplements. Salmon or Fish Body oil is the
> exception, this is a good
> one to add, if you want.
>
> I'd offer him his next raw meal tomorrow.
>
> TC
> Giselle
> with Bea in New Jersey
>

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Messages in this topic (4)
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3a. Digestion differences
Posted by: "nwohiopma" nwohiopma@yahoo.com nwohiopma
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 4:44 pm ((PDT))

Hi,

I've been raw feeding my 4 Collies for 8 months. One thing I have
noticed is that two of them need more meat to keep their poop moist,
while the other two need less meat or their poop is wrapped in mucous.

Should I give all of them the same amount of meat, or cater to what
their poop is like? I guess I don't know if it matters or not. I
feed them a variety of meat, bones and organs. Thanks.

Candace and the 4 Collies

Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: Digestion differences
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 5:19 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "nwohiopma" <nwohiopma@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I've been raw feeding my 4 Collies for 8 months. One thing I have
> noticed is that two of them need more meat to keep their poop moist,
> while the other two need less meat or their poop is wrapped in mucous.
>
> Should I give all of them the same amount of meat, or cater to what
> their poop is like?
*****
If this difference in digestive ability is a sure thing, then I don't
believe you are catering at all if you adjust the diet to meet the
needs of each dog. One of the joys/responsibilities of "making your
own" is optimizing each dog's intake. We may toss around averages and
generalities but a dog isn't a general, it's a specific. Do what you
need to do. IMO it matters.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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3c. Re: Digestion differences
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 5:28 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "nwohiopma" <nwohiopma@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> One thing I have
> noticed is that two of them need more meat to keep their poop
moist,
> while the other two need less meat or their poop is wrapped
> in mucous.

I don't know if moist poop is good or bad or neither. I don't know
if poop wrapped in mucous is good or bad or neither. I suspect both
conditions are "neither". Mine dogs sometimes have dry, sometimes
moist, sometimes wrapped in mucous. I don't pay it too much
attention to any of the conditions. It just happens to be the way
it is today.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Re: leg of lamb and chicken questions
Posted by: "Mona" mldbach@yahoo.com mldbach
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 4:46 pm ((PDT))

Thanks for your reply, Chris.

She's been eating lamb bones for a couple of years, but all of it was cooked before. We're
not cooking for her anymore. He bought the lamb for himself and cut off the bone with
some meat on it for her. She loved it and seemed to have no problems with it.

> *****
> What kind of bones and is she eating them and how is her digestive
> system handling them?

She's eating ribs right now. We just started raw feeding a couple of weeks ago, so we're
still trying to figure out what she likes. She seems happy with cow meat and lamb so far.

I guess she's digesting it OK. She's not throwing up. Her poops are different from the
bones she's eating.

> *****
> Could go either way. If you offered all sorts of chicken parts and
> she weren't having none of any of it, chicken may not be her meat.
> OTOH, if you offered one piece and if the one piece was a neck or a
> wing or a back (none are particularly meaty) you may not have offered
> a broad enough palate for her to choose from. In which case you
> should try again.

Great! I'll keep this in mind and try chicken again sometime soon to see what she does.

Thanks, again.

Mona

Messages in this topic (5)
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4b. Re: leg of lamb and chicken questions
Posted by: "Mona" mldbach@yahoo.com mldbach
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 4:46 pm ((PDT))

Laurie,

Thanks for your reply. My dog weighs about 26 lbs right now. We know she has some terrier
in her, but we don't know what else. She looks like a cute mutt.

She ate the lamb bone with no problems and loved it. She seems happy with new diet most
of the time.

Mona

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laurie Swanson" <laurie@...> wrote:
>
> What kind/size of terrier mix do you have? >
> Laurie

Messages in this topic (5)
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5. runny eyes
Posted by: "Vicki T" weimgirl16@comcast.net weimgirl16
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 4:55 pm ((PDT))

Hello All

Haven't been on in a while, but I have a puppy with tearing eyes and I
remember quite a while back someone on the list offered a suggestion
(specific food) for eye tearing. Does anyone remember what that was?

Thanks

Vicki T

Messages in this topic (1)
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6a. Re: Moral Support and Feedback
Posted by: "inavioletworld" inavioletworld@yahoo.com inavioletworld
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 4:55 pm ((PDT))

Dear Meg,

My Pittie was leaking urine last week and they did a urinalysis and said there was traces of
blood, so my holistic vet prescribed a natural product called Urinary Tract by Genesis.
They are chicken flavor tablets with things like cranberry and other herbs. So far it seems
to be working, don't know if you'd rather try that instead of the antibiotic route. Though
in my case there was no visible blood.

As for the other issues, my dog has them too, allergies, etc. The staph infections and yeast
issues did flare up when I switched to raw also. Could be the toxins in the yeast and
bacteria dying off? But my dog only throws up or has horrible stomach sounds from
chicken, so I avoid it and have no digestive issues at present. Most allergies are
environmental, not from food.

The raw will help but it will take time and you will also find out after a while that most
dogs have problems due to over vaccination more than anything. Many people here have
mentioned that homepathy has helped with these chronic issues.

The one thing that concerns me is the UTIs reoccuring so often, have they checked for
stones or even a reproductive system problem?

I hope this helps and don't give up raw, this baby needs it!

:) Julie Z.

-- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "meg_helmes" <mhelmes@...> wrote:
>
> Well, my pup is sick. She has a raging UTI (she is peeing blood and
> obviously miserable when she tries to go). Of course, critters love to
> get sick on Sundays, right? She won't eat, and a little while ago she
> threw up a little in the kitchen... I know you can all relate to
> feeling of being a bad parent when your pet gets sick. This is her
> second UTI this year (she had at least three last year). I was really
> hoping the raw would help with this, and it still may, I know its
> early. Her skin problems (staph & allergies problems) keep flaring up
> as well. I am trying not to waiver on feeding raw. This is what my dog
> needs, right? She just looks so sad and unhappy right now, and this
> is the first time she's vomited when she's had a UTI.
>
> I just need a little diet feedback, and maybe a little cheerleading?
>
> Meg
> Ruby (the wonderpit who looks so sad!)
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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7a. Re: What to try next -more specifically
Posted by: "Suzie G" gusmyhairyboy@charter.net gusmyhairyboy
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 5:24 pm ((PDT))

Hi,Suzie G. here.

I'm so excited I can hardly stand it. Our female pup will be 7 wks old July19. I'm not sure when she will be flying in yet. She is a Top Brass pup out of Top Brass Point Blank Range (Fire) owned by Jackie Mertens and Sharon Long-and Kuventre Daddy Let Me Drive The Car(A.J.) owned by Sharon Long. She is living with Sharon andTThey can't om Long in Illinois. They will be flying her into Minneapolis. I will be driving down from Duluth,Mn.(a little less than 3 hrs to pick her up. They can't make arrangements with the airlines more than 24 hrs in advance. A lot will have to do with the temps.

This is almost like being pregnant and waiting to go into labor.Unfortunately ,she has been getting kibble.(Iams Giant Puppy or some type of Purina-Jackie wasn'tsure what Tom was feeding. I have not brought up the idea of raw feeding. I'm not in the mood to possibly get "into it". What I gfeed is not part of her health guarantee.

I plan to switch her cold turkey. If you could start her on chicken or whole raggit which would you choose? I can get whole live rabbits for .75 #. My husband kills and dresses them . My older Golden(11yrs)-Delilah and Newf (8 yrs)-Gus won't eat it with fur on. They will eat the body cut in naked hunks. I can only get them to eat the heads if I grind them with all of the offal.(except stomach and intestines). I want our new puppy to be introduced early and hopefully eat it all whole.(fur and all.)Do you have any suggestions for introducing it to her? Should I just let her play with whole boddies with heads while she is eating chicken?

I have fed adult dogs raw for 7.5 yrs. Puppy raw feeding is new to me. I am reading everything I can get my hands on.(not getting much else done :) Oh Well!

I will be addending a couple of puppy socialization classes before she gets here. I can hardly wait to get started, Thankfully we have alittle time for housebreaking before the first snow flies. (although in Duluth that could be early Sept)

Thanks for asking about us!

Suzie G., Gus My Hairy Boy, Beautiful Red Delilah, and soon to be turning dark Golden or red puppy

P.S. Any suggestions for female puppy names?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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7b. Re: What to try next -more specifically
Posted by: "Suzie G" gusmyhairyboy@charter.net gusmyhairyboy
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 5:29 pm ((PDT))

Hi,Suzie G.-again

It would help if I read your whole letter before before replying! Sorry about that.
I was just ssso excited to share info about our little one. We havn't had a puppy for a very long time.

Thanks for the info. I'll let you knoe how it goes.

Suzie G.

(should I have ANOTHER cup of coffee?:) )

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Messages in this topic (4)
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8. By Products
Posted by: "Lee Schlesinger" ienjoybeingagirl@cox.net kokapellis
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 5:44 pm ((PDT))

> Thanks for the website regarding Tom Lonsdale's book. It is very
interesting. I have always stayed away from any commercial food that
had that awful word BY-PRODUCTS, but in essence he is telling us to
feed by products in the form of heads, feet, etc of animals. Is this
the same thing in commercial foods when they talk of BY PRODUCTS? He
also says in the book to feed some fruits and vegetables. I have a
friend that will not get her dog off a total kibble diet and told her
at least buy a food that has NO by products. Maybe I am being overly
concerned regarding that issue.
>
Lee Schlesinger

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9a. Beef bones
Posted by: "sallynbob221" sallynbob@catskill.net sallynbob221
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 5:59 pm ((PDT))

Hi again,
I saw some marrow bones in the meat dept & was wondering if it is OK
to give them to my dogs, more of a treat than a meal?
Thanks, Sally & 4friends

Messages in this topic (8)
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9b. Re: Beef bones
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 6:21 pm ((PDT))

Hi Sally,

Not a good idea. I fed them a lot since they sell them at the high-end
pet stores and my vet even recommended them. My dog has 2 chipped
teeth to show for 'em. I finally learned on this list that those big,
dense bones from cows and buffalo are too hard for their teeth. They
can wear down teeth, or chip or break them. I really wish this
marketing of "dog bones" would stop! Anyway, you want to feed bones
that are more easily edible (pretty much anything other than the ones
from cows, buffalo, and I guess elk...maybe deer legs...).

If you're looking for a dog-occupier/treat, try Kongs stuffed with
ground meat, then frozen and fed, or pigs' feet. You can search the
archives for more ideas, too (try "rec bones" and also plug in Chris O
as the author--she talks about long cow's feet or something).

Laurie

Messages in this topic (8)
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9c. Re: Beef bones
Posted by: "hoover1203" hoover1203@yahoo.com hoover1203
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 6:44 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "sallynbob221" <sallynbob@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi again,
> I saw some marrow bones in the meat dept & was wondering if it is OK
> to give them to my dogs, more of a treat than a meal?
> Thanks, Sally & 4friends
>
I gave it to my older dog as a meal but it upset his stomach for the
rest of the day. If you do feed it to your dog do it depending on its
size>

Messages in this topic (8)
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10. burying food for later?
Posted by: "pelirojita" kerrymurray7@gmail.com pelirojita
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 5:59 pm ((PDT))

Hi,

My 2 year-old child and I were just out in the backyard playing with
the dogs, when my 2 dogs start digging at something on the side of the
house. I thought they had cornered a lizard and went over to make
sure it wasn't something like a tarantula etc. that might not be smart
to play with.

Anyways, I was quite surprised when my 9 year-old golden pulls out a
buried chicken quarter from the dirt and rocks. I am assuming it is
left over from her dinner last night. Is there any reason not to let
her eat it? (a bit of a moot question as she is chowing down as I
type) It was about 104 degrees here today and we are getting afternoon
monsoon rains - so this thing is not exactly fresh but I have seen on
the list that "fresh" means little to the dogs and their stomachs.

Is this a sign I am feeding her too much? Or just regular dog behavior?

I routinely check the spots in the yard where the dogs eat to make
sure there are no random raw parts for my toddler to get into. Should
I try to limit the burying behavior out of hygiene reasons?

Any feedback would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Kerry
Tucson, AZ

Messages in this topic (1)
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11a. Re: Eggs and other extras
Posted by: "Sheryl Edelen" sophiiblu@yahoo.com sophiiblu
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 5:59 pm ((PDT))

Thanks. I wanted to ask a follow up question along the same lines and clarify about supplements.

My rottie Eleanor is dealing with bad hips and stiffness; she's on Duralactin, fish oil and glucosamine. There's no preference indicated on the labels, though I know most humans take that kinda stuff before their day starts. Didn't know if the same should be true for dogs.

My follow-up to the eggs is this: are almonds okay for dogs? I have a huge jar of them and my dogs have gotten into them. Twice (I honestly thought the first time might've been a fluke). Other than having poop that looks kinda like peanut brittle, they seem fine and actually beg for them when I eat them. Just wondering. Thanks.

Sheryl Edelen

Sheryl Edelen
Co-moderator, If Pits & Rotts Could Talk
"People think responsibility is hard to bear. It's not. I think that sometimes it is the absence of responsibility that is harder to bear. You have a great feeling of impotence." - Henry Kissinger

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Messages in this topic (4)
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12a. Re: New to group: be gentle
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 6:06 pm ((PDT))

I have a shepherd husky mix, and she has yet to choke
on a chicken bone, or anything else for that matter.
I feed her a whole chicken and she eats her fill, then
I bag the rest till the next meal. By the third meal I
need to substitute some meat because there's not too
much of the chicken left.
The general rule of thumb is to feed meals that are as
big as or bigger than her head. That makes her have to
work at it.
It's the BEST thing you will EVER do for your dog.
If it was cooked, she could choke on it, but feeding a
nice, yummy raw chicken will help her teeth, her coat,
and her weight!

Nathalie

--- arnereil <arnereil@cox.net> wrote:

> Gretta is a rotti/Sheppard mix from the dog pound..
> probably 10-15#
> overweight.
>
> I just have this "chicken bone getting stuck in her
> throat" image.
> .
> Arne
> .
>
>
>

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Messages in this topic (15)
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12b. Re: New to group: be gentle
Posted by: "arnereil" arnereil@cox.net uncle_nevil
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 6:21 pm ((PDT))

Thank you... I'm looking at the ads to see if I can find some chicken parts
on sale, or if not, whole chickens... I'd like to try a thigh or two to see
how it goes, first.

Regarding the whole chicken, you just watch and take it away when you feel
your dog has had enough?

I could do that... wouldn't even need my machete../g/
.
Arne
.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nathalie Poulin" <poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca>
To: <rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 9:04 PM
Subject: Re: [rawfeeding] Re: New to group: be gentle

>I have a shepherd husky mix, and she has yet to choke
> on a chicken bone, or anything else for that matter.
> I feed her a whole chicken and she eats her fill, then
> I bag the rest till the next meal. By the third meal I
> need to substitute some meat because there's not too
> much of the chicken left.
> The general rule of thumb is to feed meals that are as
> big as or bigger than her head. That makes her have to
> work at it.
> It's the BEST thing you will EVER do for your dog.
> If it was cooked, she could choke on it, but feeding a
> nice, yummy raw chicken will help her teeth, her coat,
> and her weight!
>
> Nathalie
>

Messages in this topic (15)
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13. Agression
Posted by: "Lee" ienjoybeingagirl@cox.net kokapellis
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 6:21 pm ((PDT))

I have trained my dog to always let me take her food away from a pup
on. BUT, giving her raw bones, it is very difficult for her to leave it
when I say OFF. I have to put her on a leash and she tries her best to
show me she does not want to leave the bones. I then if necessary pull
her up by the collar until she has to drop the bones. Sometimes she
will come and then I give her a very good raw piece of meat or another
great treat. I can hold the bone and she is fine pulling the meat off,
but once I give it to her that is another story.

How to I cure her from this agression with raw bones? After she is bad
I have her stay in her crate for a bit, and remove the bone.

Lee Schlesinger

Messages in this topic (1)
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14. behaviour changes after eating certain foods ? & itching
Posted by: "Lisa S." acbrio@shaw.ca trzazz
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 6:21 pm ((PDT))

Has anyone noticed behaviour changes in their dogs after they eat
certain foods ? After eating certain foods, my dog becomes more
cranky with other dogs (he loves them normally), he is more easily
spooked and more playful. That is after eating things like beef
liver. He was also like that later during the day that I fed him a
whole skinned rabbit (although he left the organs in a little pile on
the ground... darn dog).

Has anyone else experienced that with their dogs ?

Does anyone know if my dog is missing something from his diet or is
he just reacting in a funny way to certain foods ? Maybe I'll try
tripe more often and see if that steadies him. I gave him a whole
rabbit on Friday and that evening, he was cranky with a strange dog
and he spooked easily. The next morning, I gave him tripe and a
chicken back and primrose oil. He was happy-go-lucky with everyone
and all dogs all day. It's like I have two different dogs and I'm not
sure why.

Or maybe him being allergic to certain meats affects his behaviour ?
He does itch daily, which I haven't figured out either. I tried him
on one new protein source (elk only, no treats or anything else) for
a month and he didn't quit itching. Or hmm.. I wonder if I gave him
beef bones that month. I don't remember now. His itching is not
severe, but it doesn't seem like normal dog scratching.

I was hoping for some wisdom from this list, since I was told how
knowledgeable many of you are.

- Lisa S.
and Brio, 2 year old Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever
Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Messages in this topic (1)
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15a. Re: how much?
Posted by: "Debi C" dcole6@satx.rr.com scarlet_debi
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 6:28 pm ((PDT))

I've been feeding totally raw for about 2 months, before that I was
easing into it while convincing my husband it was a good thing. Then
they were getting a mix of raw/premium kibble/and leftover people
food.

It actually took my male a little time to learn to eat the raw. He
had never had anything like that before. My female had run wild for
a while and she knew exactly what to do with it. LOL.

Debi Cole and the 2 mud dogs

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laurie Swanson" <laurie@...>
wrote:
>
> Sounds like they know what they're doing, and are naturally putting
> themselves on a more natural feeding schedule! The general rule is
> to start with 2-3% of ideal body weight per day, but that of
course,
> can be spread out into fewer meals. Smaller dogs tend to need a
> higher percentage of body weight. If they are happy, healthy, and
> not losing weight, I wouldn't worry at all!
>
> Not sure about the food-hiding, though. I mean, it's probably
> normal, but do you have to worry about attracting other animals
into
> your yard? I might not let her hide the food for that reason.
> Perhaps others can chime in on this one.
>
> As far as the itching, the first thing would be to make sure the
> chicken isn't enhanced. Other than that, it may just take some
> time. How long have you been feeding raw?
>
> Laurie
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "DebiC" <dcole6@> wrote:
>
> > How many lbs of dog food per lbs of dog?
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11777

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: another Question?
From: Lyse Garant
1b. Re: another Question?
From: Giselle
1c. Re: another Question?
From: Lyse Garant
1d. Re: another Question?
From: Giselle

2a. Re: new with many questions
From: costrowski75
2b. Re: new with many questions
From: faithk99
2c. Re: new with many questions
From: carnesbill
2d. Re: new with many questions
From: Bearhair

3a. Re: dental problems
From: Krissy
3b. Re: dental problems
From: Giselle

4a. Re: Newbie - introduction - bought chicken - what to do with it?
From: Jane Walker
4b. Re: Newbie - introduction - bought chicken - what to do with it?
From: Jane Walker
4c. Re: Newbie - introduction - bought chicken - what to do with it?
From: Laurie Swanson

5a. how much?
From: DebiC
5b. Re: how much?
From: Laurie Swanson

6a. Re: What Next?
From: carnesbill

7a. Re: labwork
From: carnesbill
7b. Re: labwork
From: carnesbill

8a. Re: WHOOO HOO!!!
From: Bearhair

9a. Re: Moral Support and Feedback - UTI advice
From: Bearhair

10a. Re: Typical Human
From: c_lindaberry

11. Feeding Squirrel
From: akita6691

12. Re: WHOO HOO!!!!!!!!
From: Linda Edgington

13. Need Help with Feeding!! Dog scarfed down big piece of steak.
From: Eve Rosenzweig

14. A very Happy Newbie!
From: delcaste

Messages
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1a. Re: another Question?
Posted by: "Lyse Garant" lyse_garant@yahoo.com lyse_garant
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 10:08 am ((PDT))

***TRIMMED BY MODERATOR: TRIM YOUR MESSAGES OR RISK DELETION.

Ok THANK YOU!! Yes, you answered a question that I tossed to Chris O., about changing the meat, so I'll stick with the beef for a week and will NOT mix it with kibble. He knows I don't want him to eat the craps, and manages to sneak about half a crap every two days down his throat before I catch him. I think I can break him of the habit if he cuts down on the number of craps a day, because I do clean them up right away, and I am USUALLY right with him when he goes, it's just that he goes so often, I miss maybe one a day actually exiting his little cute brown butt.
I am feeding Guinness only twice a day. I was told by a trainer to cut him down to twice a day. Do I really have to go to 3 times at this point? Thanks again!

Messages in this topic (19)
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1b. Re: another Question?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 1:46 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Lyse!
NPs, glad to help

ime, pups under 24 weeks need to eat 3 times a day.

If you give him a Big Food portion and he eats until he is full, he
may not want much the next couple meals. But he should be offered food
at the next meal times anyway. If he gets loose poops from Big Eating,
then you'll have to stop him when he's eaten about 1/3 of the day's
portion, then let him eat about a 1/3 the next meal, and so on.

Over 6 months to about 10-12 months he should have 2 meals a day.
After that, one meal a day, or less, should suffice.

With the switch to raw already in progress and after all the kibble
has exited the afore mentioned cute little brown butt, he will be
producing *much less voluminous poops *much less frequently. The poops
may even be less attractive to him.

Have tiny treats in your pocket at all times so that when you take him
out to eliminate, you can call his name and smooch to him as he
finishes pooping. You can then give him a treat and make a big fuss
over him when he comes to you.
TC
Giselle

> Ok THANK YOU!! Yes, you answered a question that I tossed to Chris
O., about changing the meat, so I'll stick with the beef for a week
and will NOT mix it with kibble. <snip>
> I am feeding Guinness only twice a day. I was told by a trainer to
cut him down to twice a day. Do I really have to go to 3 times at this
point? Thanks again!
>

Messages in this topic (19)
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1c. Re: another Question?
Posted by: "Lyse Garant" lyse_garant@yahoo.com lyse_garant
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 3:05 pm ((PDT))

Ok, I'll do that for another 7 weeks or so, he's not a big breed and is probably well over 60% grown, hey, he had a nice small tight dootie this evening. That's only 4 today. Don't want the little cutie to get fat. Have to send you a pic. Please send a pic of your babes too. tx again Lyse

Giselle <megan.giselle@gmail.com> wrote: Hi, Lyse!
NPs, glad to help

ime, pups under 24 weeks need to eat 3 times a day.

If you give him a Big Food portion and he eats until he is full, he
may not want much the next couple meals. But he should be offered food
at the next meal times anyway. If he gets loose poops from Big Eating,
then you'll have to stop him when he's eaten about 1/3 of the day's
portion, then let him eat about a 1/3 the next meal, and so on.

Over 6 months to about 10-12 months he should have 2 meals a day.
After that, one meal a day, or less, should suffice.

Lyse

---------------------------------
Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (19)
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1d. Re: another Question?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 3:42 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Lyse!
Great!
I've never tried to post a photo to the group. I'll have to figure out
how to.
TC
Giselle

> Ok, I'll do that for another 7 weeks or so, he's not a big breed and
is probably well over 60% grown, hey, he had a nice small tight dootie
this evening. That's only 4 today. Don't want the little cutie to get
fat. Have to send you a pic. Please send a pic of your babes too. tx
again Lyse

Messages in this topic (19)
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2a. Re: new with many questions
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 11:08 am ((PDT))

"faithk99" <faithkohn@...> wrote:
>
> We have 3 dogs plus 2 visiting dogs on a regular basis. We
switched to
> the barf diet and as I read more, I am finding more information on
raw
> feeding instead.
*****
BARF is raw. BARF stands for a. bones and raw food or b.
biologically appropriate raw food or c. something else entirely; all
specify raw food.

Unfortuately, some interpreters think pasturized dairy products and
cooked lentils and steamed vegetables count as raw food, which
clearly confuses the issue by a lot.

This list encourages feeding whole, species appropriate raw meat,
edible bones and organs in amounts that generally approximate what's
provided by a prey animal, whether that's a mouse or a buffalo.
Diffences between BARF and this prey model feeding include:

--whole meats, organs and bones versus mince
--no dietary vegetables versus complicated veggie processing
--no grains versus an assortment of cooked grains
--supplementing specifically to address specific health issues versus
supplementing "on account" or just in case the diet is not enough
---complex and challenging meaty body parts versus bony RMBs
--providing complex and challenging meals versus bare "rec" bones

> someone explain the pros and cons or differences between the two
diets?
*****
The pros of BARF: it's not kibble

The cons of BARF: promotes dogs as omnivores; relies heavily on
heavily processed inappropriate food; includes too much edible bone;
includes rec bones known to damage teeth; encourages excessive
supplementing; does not offer adequate meat (flesh, fat, skin,
connection tissue)

The pros of prey model feeding; recognizes dog as both carnivore and
wolf; based on naturally-occurring proportions; based on naturally-
occurring "ingredients"; does not require mechanical processing; does
not require cooking; eliminates all or most supplements; discourages
use of tooth damaging weight-bearing "rec" bones

The cons of prey model feeding: perceived as nutritionally
incomplete; perceived as more difficult to obtain and provide;
perceived as messy

I'm sure there are more; this should be enough to get you going.

> I also read online that raw feeding is bad due to the bacteria and
> digestive problems it could cause your pet. Is this true?
*****
No. Digestive upset in rawfed or kibblefed dogs is mostly likely
caused by human error.

Bacteria are all around us, in us, on us, on what we touch. The
bacteria in a rawfed dog's digestive system are not more likely to
get you than the bacteria in a kibblefed dog's digestive system; and
most most unwanted bacterial exchanges come from contact with dog
stool, REGARDLESS of diet.

If you are already feeding BARF, you are already feeding raw meat.
What ARE you feeding?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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2b. Re: new with many questions
Posted by: "faithk99" faithkohn@gmail.com faithk99
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 12:49 pm ((PDT))

Thank you for your help. Yes, I am already feeding raw but I am not
sure if I am doing it correctly. I go to this local pet deli that
provides ground chicken with bone, and other types of meat (veal,
lamb, pork, beef, etc) in a medly which incorporates veggies and also
something they call bioessentials which is a combination of
organ/muscles etc. I fed a combination of these the first week and
the dogs seem to love it but I think it's not enough. I feed the
dogs on the advice of the person who runs the store and I wanted an
impartial opinion on what I am feeding the dogs. For the second week
which ends today, I gave the big dogs a turkey neck and the little
dogs a few chicken necks and they absolutely loved it. However, they
always seem hungry and now constantly follow me around. Should I be
feeding them more? 2 - 70lb dogs get 1.25lb/day; 1 - 35lb dog
(puppy) gets .50 lb/day; 1 -10lb dog (adult) get .25 lb per day of
some meet combination. Then I give them each a whole carrot as a
treat, this they also love.

If I want to feed them more whole meats? what can buy and how much
per dog per day? and if I buy meats from the butcher, do I need to
freeze them first before I feed to kill any salmonella?

The dogs have become very protective of their food and I need to feed
them seperately, is this normal? Is there another solution?

I appreciate all your advice.

Faith

> If you are already feeding BARF, you are already feeding raw meat.
> What ARE you feeding?
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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2c. Re: new with many questions
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 1:50 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "faithk99" <faithkohn@...> wrote:
>
> Yes, I am already feeding raw but I am not sure if I am doing it
correctly.

I don't think you are. There is no need for ground anything.
The "pet deli" is selling you items that they make a profit on.
They won't tell you that its best by far to feed whole animal parts
only because they can't make a living on that. There is no way they
can sell you that stuff cheaper than a grocery store. Since dogs
are carnivores, there is no need for any veggies at all. My dogs
haven't eaten veggies in over 4 years. Most of the dogs on the list
haven't either. Yes, organ/muscles are "bioessential" (a made up
word) but only in the whole animal part form.

> However, they
> always seem hungry and now constantly follow me around. Should
> I be feeding them more?

Thats not unusual. Judge by the dogs appearance whether he needs
more food or not. If they are thin, feed more - fat, feed less.
It's as simple as that. They will try to convince you they need
more most all the time. :) :) :)

> If I want to feed them more whole meats? what can buy and
> how much per dog per day?

You can buy, whole chickens, half chickens, chicken quarters,
chicken backs, turkey necks, turkey wings, turkey legs, turkey
thighs, turkey quarters, pork roasts, racks of pork ribs, pork
necks, pig feet, pork heart, pork kidney, beef roasts, beef heart,
beef kidney, beef necks, cube steaks, any part of lamb, any fish but
particularly salmon and mackerel. Any deer meat you can beg off of
friends. Whole rabbits. If I have left off any animals, feed their
parts too.

A general rule is 2% to 3% of their ideal adult weight but once
again, let the dog tell you by his appearance exactly how much to
feed.

> and if I buy meats from the butcher, do I need to
> freeze them first before I feed to kill any salmonella?

If you buy any volume of meat, you probably will freeze at least
some of it anyway but no, its not necessary.

> The dogs have become very protective of their food and I need
> to feed
> them seperately, is this normal? Is there another solution?

Its not unusual. My dogs are the same way but they have learned
that if one isn't eating he will go to great extremes to avoid a dog
that is. If a dog gets too close to an eating dog, a low growl
usually takes care of the situation. My dogs take their food to
seperate rooms if fed whole pieces. The rare times they are fed in
their bowls, they are fed on opposite sides of the kitchen.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (5)
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2d. Re: new with many questions
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 2:07 pm ((PDT))

Faith wrote:

> . . . I go to this local pet deli that
>provides ground chicken with bone, and other types of meat (veal,
>lamb, pork, beef, etc) in a medly which incorporates veggies and also
>something they call bioessentials which is a combination of
>organ/muscles etc.

KA-CHING!

>I fed a combination of these the first week and
>the dogs seem to love it but I think it's not enough. I feed the
>dogs on the advice of the person who runs the store and I wanted an
>impartial opinion on what I am feeding the dogs.

Smart thinking!

>For the second week
>which ends today, I gave the big dogs a turkey neck and the little
>dogs a few chicken necks and they absolutely loved it. However, they
>always seem hungry and now constantly follow me around. Should I be
>feeding them more? 2 - 70lb dogs get 1.25lb/day; 1 - 35lb dog
>(puppy) gets .50 lb/day; 1 -10lb dog (adult) get .25 lb per day of
>some meet combination.

The basic recommendation is to feed 2 - 4% of the dog's ideal adult weight,
but it is entirely dependent on the individual dog and their activity and
metabolism. Smaller dogs may need a higher percentage as well.

I'd feed the 70 pounders at least 1.4 pounds unless you see that they are
gaining weight. The 35 pounder, if an adult, should get at least 0.7 or 11
ounces. As a puppy, you should be feeding based on what his adult weight will
be.

Sounds like you are underfeeding, especially if you're feeding vegetables -
they are not efficiently digested and provide little nutrition.

>Then I give them each a whole carrot as a treat, this they also love.

The carrot is fine as a treat, but don't count it as food. If you clean up
after them, you'll likely see that it's not digested much.

>If I want to feed them more whole meats? what can buy and how much
>per dog per day? and if I buy meats from the butcher, do I need to
>freeze them first before I feed to kill any salmonella?

Read the messages, read the archives. We advocate a prey model diet that
tries to mimic what a dog/wolf would eat in the wild. For example, feed a
whole chicken, from beak to toenails, if possible. Not necessarily in one
meal, but don't get too stuck in a rut with one meat source. Feed a chicken
leg quarter. Skin, meat, bone, all together. Most of the meat I feed comes
from the grocery store, no special source. I cruise the nearby warehouse club
every few days for "reduced for quick sale" meats. Beef, pork, chicken, fish,
turkey, goat, and lamb are the most common meats. Specialty items can be
found at ethnic markets, from local meat processors, or farms.

With regard to salmonella and other health concerns:
http://www.rawlearning.com
http://www.rawmeatybones.com
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/
http://www.rawfeddogs.net/

>The dogs have become very protective of their food and I need to feed
>them seperately, is this normal? Is there another solution?

They are hungry and very excited to get real food. Continue to feed them
separately until you are certain they will not fight and you have a good
comfort level as to their diet. Then join RawChat where people can explain
how they have trained their dogs to eat only in their designated space and to
not enter another dog's feeding space.

Lora
Evanston, IL

Messages in this topic (5)
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3a. Re: dental problems
Posted by: "Krissy" krissy@mitre.org krissyar26
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 11:17 am ((PDT))

>> the only concern I have is that if I give her more than what she
>> can eat at once then what will I do with the rest?

Hi Yuliya,

Put the leftovers back in the freezer for another meal. I do it all
the time, multiple times w/very large items, hot weather, cold weather,
dirt-encrusted, whatever. No problems.

Krissy

Messages in this topic (9)
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3b. Re: dental problems
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 1:58 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Yuliya!
Whether you're feeding inside or outside, you can provide a large
towel or blanket for her to eat on, and surround her with an ex-pen to
keep her from dragging her food around.

When she is done, offer to let her out of the pen without the leftover
food for a yummy piece of treat. Pick up the leftovers with an inside
out baggie and put in the fridge. you can then fold up the
towel/blanket and put it aside until the next meal.

Wa-La! No dirty food, no food being dragged around the house.

You can also feed food that is partially/completly frozen, especially
in this heat.

TC
Giselle

> that's what I was thinking too, give her larger parts
> to chew on, the only concern I have is that if I give
> her more than what she can eat at once then what will
> I do with the rest? it's so hot outside I worry that
> the food will go bad. She eats outside on the
> backyard, I didn't feel comfortable with her drugging
> raw meets around the house, I have small kids and
> husband whose immune system is not very good.
> thakn you for your answers.
> Yuliya
>
>
>
>
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Messages in this topic (9)
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4a. Re: Newbie - introduction - bought chicken - what to do with it?
Posted by: "Jane Walker" janeewalker@suddenlink.net janeewalker5
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 11:31 am ((PDT))

Hi Laurie,

I tried the boneless, skinless chicken breasts this morning - I baked
them for a few minutes first (more for me - but I'm sure I will get
over this).

The dogs loved it - and some of my cats as well (as of my writing
yesterday I had not yet been accepted to the raw cat group, but am
now).

One dog, Wolfie, is a 70 pound stray - mix - the other, Little Bit,
is 30 pounds and looks like a beagle/dauschund mix.

So I can just throw them a whole chicken - and the bones and skin are
OK?? What kind of meat can I buy with a lot of bone for them?
something like pork ribs?? I don't have a clue and will go to the
market today. I just haven't had time to read all of the info on the
raw web sites...so any quick advice would be good.

What about those bones that you can get in Petsmart? Knuckle bone -
something big for Wolfie and medium for Little Bit - are those bones
bad - is there something to buy for them to chew on that is
healthy??? What about Greenies?? Does it all need to be fresh??
thanks for info! I will get there gradually....Thanks so much!

Janee

In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laurie Swanson" wrote:
I don't have cats. You will get some cat advice here, but there is
also the RawCat list. Boneless chicken breasts are probably going to
be inhaled by your dogs (unless they're really big, they're just the
right size and texture for a gulp or two, probably). Which isn't
going to hurt them, but they will get much more benefit from a
bigger, bone- in hunk. What sizes are your dogs? You'd do better
with leg quarters or better yet, half or whole chickens. >
>
I'm a vegetarian, too, but I love feeding my dog his appropriate
diet. > Any specific concerns?

Laurie

Messages in this topic (7)
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4b. Re: Newbie - introduction - bought chicken - what to do with it?
Posted by: "Jane Walker" janeewalker@suddenlink.net janeewalker5
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 11:32 am ((PDT))

Hi Kerry - thanks so much for your words of wisdom. It is very hard,
after so many years of being fed pet food lies (I am 55, to accept that
dogs and cats do not need grains and all of those wonderful sounding
herbs and oils, etc.,that the brillant per food marketers use. One of
my vets uses and belives that Pedigree hard food is great for her dogs -
she likes the way it makes their coats shine. She says that animals
in the wild eat other animals who have had grass or grains and are in
their stomachs...well, we've all certainly heard that one, haven't we?

It has taken me a while to get to this group, and I change slowly, but
it will come. I will find time to read more soon, I hope.

Janee

In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "pelirojita" <kerrymurray7@...> wrote:

Others will chime in with their rawfeeding wisdom. I just want to say
that I am a vegetarian for the same reasons as you and have recently
switched to feeding my dogs raw. I know next to nothing about cats,
but for your dogs boneless skinless chicken breast is a start but they
are going to need something that they can tuck in to, like the whole
chicken, as chewing and gnawing on the bones is half the fun. Right
now you can hand the breasts whole to your dogs and they will probably
gulp them down in a few second flat, depending on your dogs' size (at
least my dogs would...)
>
Kerry Tucson, AZ

Messages in this topic (7)
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4c. Re: Newbie - introduction - bought chicken - what to do with it?
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 3:03 pm ((PDT))

Janee,

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Jane Walker" <janeewalker@...>
wrote:
> So I can just throw them a whole chicken - and the bones and skin
are
> OK??

***Well, yes, but some things to consider...

You might want to remove some or all of the skin at first, or later,
if you have any digestive issues. Sometimes too much fat in the
beginning can cause loose stool.

Does either have any food aggression? Do they eat comfortably
together? I only have 1 dog. I hear about people letting their dogs
feed off the same hunk, but many feed separately--on towels, in
different rooms, in crates, whatever. You may not be able to tell
how much food each is getting if you feed off the same hunk. So,
throw the whole chicken out for both, or divvy it up and feed
separately. You can search the archives for things like "feeding
multiple dogs" for more info.

To make it easy, Wolfie will probably be eating about 2#/day and
Little Bit about 1#. The general rule is start with 2-3% of ideal
body weight and adjust from there, depending on activity level,
over/underweight status, etc.

You can let them eat part of a chicken, then take it up and re-frig
it or re-freeze it for another meal, or cut into meal-size portions.

>What kind of meat can I buy with a lot of bone for them?
> something like pork ribs??

***They don't need a lot of bone. Think as if you're feeding them a
whole animal and then buy parts that over time, resemble that. Lots
of meat, some bone, a little organs. You might want to stick with
chicken for a week or 2 and see how things go. If you want to add
variety in now, you can, but you may need to back up and simplify if
you get any issues. Their digestive systems need to do a lot of
adjusting and healing and get up to speed after being fed junk for
years.

So, long-term, any meat is fine. Once you start getting into the
butcher cut bones, there are some things to be aware of. You don't
want small/sharp bones for the dogs (like when they cut pork necks
into small triangles, or pork chops...but if you find a good deal on
pork chops, you can just cut out the bone and feed the meat). The
cats, I don't know about--maybe they can safely eat some of those
smaller bones the dogs can't.

Slabs of pork ribs are good, but pretty fatty. You'll want to add
some meat to them, probably. Pork roasts are good. Any turkey
parts, beef cuts (except t-bones, with those small, sharp, sawed
bones), lamb, goat, etc.

> What about those bones that you can get in Petsmart? Knuckle bone -

> something big for Wolfie and medium for Little Bit - are those
bones
> bad - is there something to buy for them to chew on that is
> healthy???

***I don't know exactly what Petsmart carries, but you don't want any
cooked bones! If they aren't refrigerated or frozen, I'm sure they
must be cooked and/or smoked. AND, you don't want those big
beef/buffalo bones--cooked OR raw--they're too dense and can wear
down, chip, or break teeth (many stories of this have been posted on
here and my dog has 2 chipped teeth from before I knew better).

Their meals will be more satisfying now, so they may not need as much
other chewing activity. If you want to keep them busy, stuff a Kong
with ground meat, freeze it, and feed that. Or, there are things
like long pigs' feet and other ideas in the archives (search "rec
bones").

>What about Greenies??

***I've heard these have caused impactions or obstructions and even
deaths. They are not well digested at all. I believe the
manufacturer is being sued by several people.

>Does it all need to be fresh??

***For bones, yes. For treats, not necessarily.

Are you reading the other posts that are coming through? There is a
wealth of info just even in one day. Read a few days and you'll get
a lot of questions answered.

Enjoy!

Laurie

Messages in this topic (7)
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5a. how much?
Posted by: "DebiC" dcole6@satx.rr.com scarlet_debi
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 11:32 am ((PDT))

I'm sure this was answered long ago but I seem to have missed it.

How many lbs of dog food per lbs of dog? I was feeding a chicken quarter a day (for an example) to my Jack Russells who weigh 13 and 15 lbs. They would eat the whole thing on Mon, then leave 1/2 on Tuesday, then 1/2 lb organ meat on Weds, then not want anything on Thursday, and leave some of their beef on Fri.

Is this good? The male will gorge and not eat the next day, the female will hide whats left and eat it the next day. I also think my male is eating something(?) that he digs up in the yard, literally.

Neither of them are fat, both very active in the yard and on walks.

We are also still having skin allergy problems aka the Itchy and Scratchy Show.

Debi and the Mud Dogs

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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5b. Re: how much?
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 3:05 pm ((PDT))

Sounds like they know what they're doing, and are naturally putting
themselves on a more natural feeding schedule! The general rule is
to start with 2-3% of ideal body weight per day, but that of course,
can be spread out into fewer meals. Smaller dogs tend to need a
higher percentage of body weight. If they are happy, healthy, and
not losing weight, I wouldn't worry at all!

Not sure about the food-hiding, though. I mean, it's probably
normal, but do you have to worry about attracting other animals into
your yard? I might not let her hide the food for that reason.
Perhaps others can chime in on this one.

As far as the itching, the first thing would be to make sure the
chicken isn't enhanced. Other than that, it may just take some
time. How long have you been feeding raw?

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "DebiC" <dcole6@...> wrote:

> How many lbs of dog food per lbs of dog?

Messages in this topic (2)
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6a. Re: What Next?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 11:34 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "kjdaughtridge"
<kjdaughtridge@...> wrote:
>
> So here's my question...I think we're ready to start adding new
> proteins. What would you recommend for a second meat?

> Also, I'm a little confused
> about what pork and cow bones are ok.

Kathleen,
You are doing great so far. I suggest you try turkey next. You can
alternate chicken and turkey meals for a week. If all goes ok, and
it probably will, the next week add a couple of meals of pork. The
next week a meal or two of beef would be good. Somewhere in there
add a meal or two of fish. There are really no hard and fast rules
in doing this. Just take it slow and easy and add a protein a week
as long as everything is ok. If things deteriorate, back up and
slow down a little.

Because there are no hard fast rules, feel free to change the order
of any of the protein sources above. :) :) :)

You can feed most any pork bones you wish. They are all pretty
editable. I don't feed beef bones at all because of their density
but many feed them with no problem. There is no bone shortage in my
dog's diets so why add in the dense bones? If you wish to feed beef
bones, it would be ok to feed any but the leg bones.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (26)
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7a. Re: labwork
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 12:15 pm ((PDT))

I think you have to decide what the definition of "high" and "low"
is. If bloodwork from a raw fed dog is different than that of a
kibble fed dog, which is "normal"? Why would you think that readings
from a kibble fed dog should be the norm? Kibble is an artificial and
inappropriate food and probably would create artificial and
inapproptiate blood chemestry levels.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (9)
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7b. Re: labwork
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 12:16 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "darkstardog" <darkstardog@...>
wrote:
>
> Sorry, but you need more information to say that a raw diet is not
> higher than kibble. You can't compare percent protein
> directly between
> raw meat and kibble.

Correct but not for the reasons you think. Actually the raw diet is
a very high protein diet compared to kibble however it is the proper
amount of protein for a canine.

To compare protein in a raw diet to protein in a kibble diet you
must take into consideration moisture. Kibble is less than 10%
moisture and its protein percentage is a dry weight. Raw is ~75 -
80% mositure and its protein is measured in a wet weight. If you
measure a raw diet's protein in dry weight (same as kibble) it would
be greater than 80% protein.

The difference is that protein in a raw diet is high quality easily
digestable protein from only meat sources whereas kibble protein is
a VERY low quality from both meat and plant sources that is
practically indigestable. To compare the two is to compare apples
and oranges (to coin a phrase).

Millions of years of evolution and mother nature has proven that the
protein content in a raw diet is at the correct level. To say a dog
should eat 20 or 24% protein is pulling arbibrary numbers out of a
hat.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (9)
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8a. Re: WHOOO HOO!!!
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 1:50 pm ((PDT))

Linda wrote:

>Gizzy is eating his first thigh!!!!!!!!!!! He just looked at it for a bit and now is eating it. I cut a little bit of the meat off and gave to sass. But he's eating it. I also cut the skin off, do I want to be doing this???? Will he eat that bone, or is that too big for him? (toy poodle 5#). He should at least chew on it a bit? How long should it be left out for him. He is fed in his kennel. I suppose as long as he's chewing, huh? (that was kinda a blond question :} )

Congratulations for taking the plunge!

Guessing this is chicken and not turkey . . . he may or may not eat the bone,
but it is perfectly appropriate for him to do so. A turkey leg bone might be
a bit big for him as his first raw meal.

In general, there's no need to remove the skin. Remember that you're feeding
prey model - your dog would eat the entire chicken, from its beak to its
toenails. However, the chickens I get in the store usually have more fat than
a dog/wolf would find in nature, so I pull off the obvious hunks of fat.
There's a good amount of fat underlying the skin, but it's difficult to
separate, so I don't.

What is a "sass"?

Lora
Evanston, IL

Messages in this topic (2)
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9a. Re: Moral Support and Feedback - UTI advice
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 2:08 pm ((PDT))

Meg wrote:

>I think I am
>doing pretty good on variety and content one month in, right?

It sounds fabulous to me!

>I've
>been reading everything going through the list and make good use of
>the archives as much as possible.

Love you for that!

>Well, my pup is sick. She has a raging UTI (she is peeing blood and
>obviously miserable when she tries to go). Of course, critters love to
>get sick on Sundays, right? She won't eat, and a little while ago she
>threw up a little in the kitchen... I know you can all relate to
>feeling of being a bad parent when your pet gets sick. This is her
>second UTI this year (she had at least three last year). I was really
>hoping the raw would help with this, and it still may, I know its
>early. Her skin problems (staph & allergies problems) keep flaring up
>as well. I am trying not to waiver on feeding raw. This is what my dog
>needs, right? She just looks so sad and unhappy right now, and this
>is the first time she's vomited when she's had a UTI.
>
>I just need a little diet feedback, and maybe a little cheerleading?

Although several people will weigh in with their experience tonight, my
thought is that she may not have been fully cleared of the infection in the
first place, and may very well need a good stiff dose (or two) of an
antibiotic that will kick it outta there. You may also want to do some online
research on possible herbs or probiotics that might help balance her system
while she's being treated.

I wouldn't worry about a single vomit, especially since you described it as
"a little." She's likely just feeling crappy.

5 weeks of raw is probably not long enough to counteract 2 1/2 years of
kibble, so be patient - her immune system will build and begin fighting off
these infections on its own, but it may still need a little help right now.

Lora
Evanston, IL

Messages in this topic (2)
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10a. Re: Typical Human
Posted by: "c_lindaberry" c_lindaberry@yahoo.com c_lindaberry
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 3:05 pm ((PDT))

Dave,

Switch to raw. It's the best diet you can offer your dogs because it's
what their bodies are adapted to process. If the kibble hasn't helped
it's not likely to. While it can take up to three months, as your vet
said, it rarely actually does. I work in GSD rescue and have two of
them myself, both of whom suffer from allergies.

My female has food allergies, which, in GSDs usually show up as hot
spots, vomiting, chronic or acute dirrhea, ear inflammation leading to
inffections and only rarely as generalized itching. Her's presented as
diarrhea. We tried her on different kibbles for TWO YEARS with no
resolution. Some kibbles made it better, others worse, but none
actually solved it. Within TWO DAYS of switching to raw there was no
more diarrhea or loose stool...well, that's not quite true, she still
gets the runs if she eats too much at once, but that's my fault.

My male also has allergies that present as generalized itching and
licking. His are not food-related. After a month on raw with no
improvement, I realized that for him, it wasn't a dietary thing, and
he was clear of parasites, meaning that it was an immune issue (as are
all allergies) that was reacting to environmental stimulus. These
inhalant allergies are not fixed by food, because that's not what
they're connected to. They nearly always present as generalized
itching, often worse in the winter when there's not as much air
circulation and allergens build up. There are some treatments for them
that can help. Adding lots of 0mega3 (fish oil) can help, as can
frequent bathing and cleaning any bedding or other places the dog
spends time. Benadryl and Cortico-steroids (to suppress the
misbehaving immune system) and allergy shots are the medical options
going from most conservative/least side effects/cheapest to most
aggressive/dangerous/espensive.

I've had my male on fish oil, twice-weekly baths, and benadryl for
nearly 3 weeks and it's made a huge difference. Since it can take up
to a month for the Omega3 to become really effective at reducing
inflamation and itchyness, I'm hopeful, but not counting on weaning
him off the benadryl soon. I'm sure a good raw diet has helped him,
but that's not what his problem is, and I wouldn't be willing to bet
that that's where your GSD's itching comes from either.

Crystal and the Zoo

Messages in this topic (19)
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11. Feeding Squirrel
Posted by: "akita6691" kyharris@dtnspeed.net akita6691
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 3:05 pm ((PDT))

My husband & I are new members to the group, so forgive what I'm sure
is a question that's been asked in the past.

We have tons of gray squirrels in our little town, which only one
person in the neighborhood likes. They're very aggressive and loud.
When we told our neighbor who lets our dogs out during the day when
he's home that we were feeding raw meat to them, he wanted to know if
we wanted some squirrels. I told him I didn't know if they were on the
list, but I would check. He's going to help us out with other wild
game when hunting season opens, so we like him a lot!

What's the word on squirrel? Thanks.

Rob & Karen
Bear, Daisy, Peaches, Myles & Mitzi

Messages in this topic (1)
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12. Re: WHOO HOO!!!!!!!!
Posted by: "Linda Edgington" lindagail849@yahoo.com lindagail849
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 3:05 pm ((PDT))

What is a sass?

Short for Sassafrass, my cat. Lol
Sorry, and yes it was a chicken thigh.
Linda

---------------------------------
Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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13. Need Help with Feeding!! Dog scarfed down big piece of steak.
Posted by: "Eve Rosenzweig" loulou_bean@yahoo.com loulou_bean
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 3:42 pm ((PDT))

Hi,
Any help would be greatly appreciated. I just fed
my 17 lb pekingese a 1/3 lb of raw beef/steak (no
bone) for the first time and he took two chews and
swallowed the whole thing! I am freaking out big time!

He is used to ground beef with a grain/veggie mixture,
which I know is not correct. And he is a scarfer,
hence the huge gulp of steak.

1. Is he going to get sick from swallowing the whole
steak?

2. How do I get him not to gulp?

3. And if the answer to number 2 is to give him
something attached to a bone, I am frightened he will
try and scarf down the bone.

4. He ate his grain breakfast this morning. When
should I try and feed him again?

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I really need
some tips to get him started on chewing his food.

Eve, NYC

____________________________________________________________________________________
Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check.
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Messages in this topic (1)
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14. A very Happy Newbie!
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 3:42 pm ((PDT))

I've been feeding raw everything and my pugs and pit puppy have turned
into little wolves! They love their food and if I didn't take it away
from them I believe I'd have porkers not dogs (lol). Speaking of the
pugs, they do not shed anymore, their teeth are WHITE (even the back
ones), their eyes are clear, their breath is fresh, their allover fur
is like what their ears feel like-kidskin.

The animals have helped me in that they like whatever I give them. So
far they have tasted sweetbreads, cow liver, gizzards, beef, pork,
chicken, tongue, beef and pork heart, pork ribs, lamb backs, chicken
necks and one of their favorites: chicken feet. I'm working on getting
goat.

To everyone on this board, you have helped me immensely switching over
to raw and I will never look back :)

Silvina
and the pugs + Beefy

Messages in this topic (1)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11776

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: What to try next -more specifically
From: Suzie G
1b. Re: What to try next -more specifically
From: costrowski75

2a. Re: Thank You!
From: Giselle

3a. Re: Non Poopers
From: Giselle
3b. Re: Non Poopers
From: Bearhair

4a. Re: Typical Human
From: JoAnn Gongos
4b. Re: Typical Human
From: Bearhair
4c. Re: Typical Human
From: Giselle

5a. Re: another Question?
From: h h
5b. Re: another Question?
From: Giselle
5c. Re: another Question?
From: costrowski75
5d. Re: another Question?
From: Lyse Garant

6.1. Re: Fish
From: Bearhair
6.2. Re: Fish
From: Maiakitas@aol.com
6.3. Re: Fish
From: costrowski75

7a. Re: dental problems
From: Yuliya Brown
7b. Re: dental problems
From: Yuliya Brown
7c. Re: dental problems
From: Giselle
7d. Re: dental problems
From: Yuliya Brown

8a. Getting ready to take the plunge!
From: costrowski75
8b. Getting ready to take the plunge!
From: costrowski75

9. WHOOO HOO!!!
From: Linda Edgington

10. new with many questions
From: faithk99

11a. Re: Newbie - introduction - bought chicken - what to do with it?
From: Patrice Quinn

12. Moral Support and Feedback
From: meg_helmes

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: What to try next -more specifically
Posted by: "Suzie G" gusmyhairyboy@charter.net gusmyhairyboy
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 6:18 am ((PDT))

Hi,Suzie G. here

I will be getting a 7 week old Golden puppy very soon. I also have a question about moving on to a new protein source after being on chicken for a week or two succesfully. If you had a choice would you start with whole chicken cut in hunks or whole rabbit cut up? (fur or no fur ?) I have regular access to rabbit and it is cheaper than chicken. (would you give a new puppy a whole rabbit carcuss to "play " with? heads?) After being on their first protein source for a week or two do you add the new source (ex.pork) by itself for the next week or do you slowly add ex. pork to chicken meals? Do you ONLY feed one kind of meat for each week of the introduction period ?(week 1-ONLY chicken and chicken offal,week 2 ONLY rabbit and rabbit offal,week 3 -ONLY pork etc.) Or do you continua to give little bits of previously introduced meat?

Does this include training treats?(week 1 -chicken liver, week 3 pork liver?) We will be starting puppy classes at 7.5 weeks.

Thankyou for your input.

Suzie G.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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1b. Re: What to try next -more specifically
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 9:33 am ((PDT))

"Suzie G" <gusmyhairyboy@...> wrote:
> I will be getting a 7 week old Golden puppy very soon.
*****
This is great! Oh, write me privately please please please and give
me all the details. Yippee! Yippee!

I also have a question about moving on to a new protein source after
being on chicken for a week or two succesfully. If you had a choice
would you start with whole chicken cut in hunks or whole rabbit cut
up? (fur or no fur ?)
*****
I think you are overthinking this. Baby pups are the easiest to feed
raw to--just do it. You oughtn't have to stick to a week or two of
just chicken but if that's what you've got your mind set on, then by
all means add bits of other protein to the meals from the get-go. Not
whole meals, just smidges of this and that, including bits of liver
and heart.

I recommend you start with whatever you feel comfortable with, then
add the other meat. Chicken is likely to be fattier than rabbit,
which is good because pupsters need fat, and bad because too much fat
for the initiated tummy can be distressing for all parties.

After being on their first protein source for a week or two do you
add the new source (ex.pork) by itself for the next week or do you
slowly add ex. pork to chicken meals? Do you ONLY feed one kind of
meat for each week of the introduction period ?(week 1-ONLY chicken
and chicken offal,week 2 ONLY rabbit and rabbit offal,week 3 -ONLY
pork etc.) Or do you continua to give little bits of previously
introduced meat?
*****
My goodness, I think you've forgotten to breathe. It is easier to
introduce raw to a pup than it is to an adult. At the very least you
have three if not four meals a day to work with. The meals are small
right now and they are plentiful: feeding one protein for a week at
this point is covering at least 21 meals! Don't squander this golden
opportunity by limiting access.

I started my pup at seven weeks on quail; for her size one dressed
quail was exactly a meal. Meal three was quail and a wee blop of
green tripe. By the end of the first week, she had successfully
eaten quail, venison, chicken meat, smashed chicken back, a smashed
wing+ cut from a cornish game hen, a piece of salmon filet, a
mouthful of lamb, a pork blade bone to clean up, a chicken heart, a
mere smear of chicken liver. After that I sort of focused on
increasing amounts of each food. If things would have gone south I
would have backed off, simplified; things did not go south.

> Does this include training treats?(week 1 -chicken liver, week 3
pork liver?) We will be starting puppy classes at 7.5 weeks.
*****
For a pupster that young, a training treat is a hangnail's worth of
anything. I suspect rampant treating will be encouraged, so using
liver extensively will almost certainly produce digestive distress.
I would not use liver, in fact, I've never used liver to train with,.
I've seen too many mid-class meltdowns. I think teensy bits of
cooked chicken and maybe beef heart (lean, lean, lean) would be
safer. I can't see them being refused.

Whatever you use, if the amount you treat is signficant, cut back on
meal size accordingly.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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2a. Re: Thank You!
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 6:51 am ((PDT))

Hi, Linda! Welcome and Congratulations, no luck needed!
Just post and let us know when you have questions, and keep us current
on your progress!
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> I just joined this group a few days ago. I checked out the BARF diet a
> few years ago but continued to feed the k word. I have a 4 yr old
> female GSD and an old beat up tom cat. I have read about a hundred
> posts and about a dozen web sites. Well I switched them to raw
> yesterday. Ginger (the dog) would not eat today, she ate some grass,
> threw up got real excited about feeling better and put away a leg
> quarter, a wing and some organ meat. Nap time! lol
> I enjoy this group and all the great information I have received from
> all you raw feeders. Ginger has skin problems, colitis, is overweight
> and licks her feet all the time. Hoping that getting rid of kibble will
> clear some of it up. My vet said allergies and wanted to give her
> steroids. Wish me luck.
> Linda, Ginger and Screech
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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3a. Re: Non Poopers
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 7:10 am ((PDT))

Hi, Michele!
You *want* more poop? lol
What exactly have have you been feeding?
Generally, if you are seeing crumbly chalky poops and the dog seems a
bit constipated, you are feeding way too much bone. For a "quick fix",
feed a bit more organs, some Salmon or Fish Body oil or, alternatively
some Slippery Elm Bark Powder, especially if their bowels seem irritated.
Feed too much organ, and you can end up with the other extreme, runny
poops. : )
Long term, you need to feed more meatymeat. The general rule of thumb
is about 80% meat (muscle, fat, skin, connective tissue, anything that
isn't bone or organs), only about 10% bone, and about 10% organ. Each
dog is an individual, however, and the percentages must be adjusted to
what is optimal for each of them, right at that time.
You will see a dramatic reduction in the volume and frequency of poops
on the raw diet, this is entirely normal, as raw is more completely
digested than kibble.
Post and let us know what your dogs have been eating, and you will get
more specific information so you can tweak their diet.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> My 2 bullmastiff pups aren't pooping. I have seen some chalky and I
know that means to
> much bone, but nothing like I am used to with kibble of course.
What can I give them to
> loosen them up a bit? My one BM takes her time eating and her
sister gobbles it up
> practically whole.
>
> Michele
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: Non Poopers
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 7:13 am ((PDT))

You wrote:

>My 2 bullmastiff pups aren't pooping. I have seen some chalky and I know that means to
>much bone, but nothing like I am used to with kibble of course. What can I give them to
>loosen them up a bit? My one BM takes her time eating and her sister gobbles it up
>practically whole.
>
>Michele

How long have you been on raw? What are you feeding them?

Do you walk them and have the opportunity to SEE them have a bowel movement
or do they have the run of the yard and you look around every day or two?

Poop from raw-fed dogs are smaller, denser, and turn white and disintegrate
in about a day in the sun. Unless the only way they can poop is with you
present . . . they're doing it and you're seeing the benefits of feeding food
that is almost wholly digestible!

Chalky poop is only a valid diagnostic tool for bone percentage when it is
observed immediately upon it seeing the light of day - a few hours later and
a normal poop will have already started turning white and chalky.

Lora
Evanston, IL

Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Re: Typical Human
Posted by: "JoAnn Gongos" jogongos@adelphia.net joanngongos
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 7:13 am ((PDT))

-As the owner of a GSD who spent a year watching my dog suffer from itching and a dry sparse coat and spending money at the vets to no avail I urge you to get him on RMB NOW. My GSDs coat got soft and thick within a couple weeks, the itching gradually decreased and was totally gone in three months. Don't wait for the research, it is all on this list.

JoAnn

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (14)
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4b. Re: Typical Human
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 8:08 am ((PDT))

Lyse wrote:

>Giselle? You seem to know a lot, I am also in NJ, with welsh terrier Guinness. I have fed him cooked chicken on two previous occasions and both times he vomited. Do you think he could be allergic to chicken? Will raw chicken have a different effect? Should I remove the skin? thanks....

Sounds like you haven't made the switch? There are numerous reports in the
archives of dogs who were apparently severely allergic to one or more protein
sources when fed it in kibble or cooked form, and once swicthed fully to raw
prey model, showed NO sign of allergies from that or any other protein source
again.

Cooked meat is NOT the same as raw meat.

Lora
Evanston, IL

Messages in this topic (14)
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4c. Re: Typical Human
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 8:13 am ((PDT))

Hi, Lyse!
Look where you posted in Re: Another Question.
I know a little, willing to share a lot. lol
Giselle

> Giselle? You seem to know a lot, I am also in NJ, with welsh terrier
Guinness. I have fed him cooked chicken on two previous occasions and
both times he vomited. Do you think he could be allergic to chicken?
Will raw chicken have a different effect? Should I remove the skin?
thanks....
> Lyse

Messages in this topic (14)
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5a. Re: another Question?
Posted by: "h h" deedeekinsisme@yahoo.com tarbedyh
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 7:13 am ((PDT))

My welsh terrier likes to eat his own crap, and he craps like 6 times a day. I just started raw feeding with yesterday's dinner. He is 16 weeks old. will raw feeding help me GET RID OF THIS GROSS PROBLEM?

~~~~~~~~~
It may, or may not...depending on why your dog is eating its own feces. Grain doesn't digest as well as raw meat. So, to many kibble fed dogs, what came out the other end is still the dog food they ate a short while ago. However, coprophagia (eating feces) and other forms of pica can be a sign of vaccinosis, and if this is the reason for your dog eating its waste, the change to a raw diet will not have as much effect.

HEIDI MARIE
~with the woofs-Cheyenne and Lazy B~
~and the moggies-Minerva, Shasta, and Misty-Jo~

---------------------------------
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

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Messages in this topic (14)
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5b. Re: another Question?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 7:57 am ((PDT))

Hi, uh, Lyse! - You didn't sign your email.
Raw fed dogs do poop less frequently and have smaller poops. The raw
diet is also much more completely digestible than kibble, which may
make the stool less interesting to eat....
Will feeding raw be enough to stop your pup from indulging in cophragia?
Dunno. I suspect not.
There are several components involved in cophragia; the attractiveness
of the indigestible ingredients in kibble that end up stool is only
one of them.
1) Age. Puppies play with, and try to eat everything. If they eat
stool, it can become a habit.
2) Opportunity. If stool is not left lying around for the dog to eat,
it can't eat it.
3) Boredom. Too much time alone can allow a dog to pick up the habit
of cophragia.
4) Lack of stimulation. Having no toys, or not being introduced to
acceptable toys can contribute to the dog finding unacceptable
objects, like stool, to play with and eat.
5) Lack of interaction. Not having regular adequate play time and
interactions with humans and other dogs can leave the dog looking for
'stuff' to do.
6) Habit. Once a dog establishes a habit, any habit, it can be hard to
eradicate.
7) Management. Pups need to be managed just like babies. You wouldn't
place a baby in the middle of the floor and let them go where ever and
do whatever, would you? Crates, ex-pens and leashes for pups are like
cribs, play pens and swingies for babies. Baby gates in doorways are
appropriate for both young critter types.
If you provide adequate supervision, management and redirection during
the changeover to raw, I believe you can stop this behavior from
becoming a habit.
If you are feeding a raw, species appropriate prey model diet, you are
*not* feeding cooked anything! Pups can throw up after eating, if they
eat too much, too fast, or unfamiliar foods.
Start with one protein only, to facilitate the switch to raw. After a
week,add a new protein. Then another, etc.
Feed whole chickens, cut up. You should be able to feed a quarter
chicken to him, take it up when he's done eating on it and put it in
the fridge. He may be able eat a quarter a day, it depends. Maybe
more, maybe less. Toss out any bones he doesn't consume.
Edible bone is a small part of the diet, but an essential one. The
general rule of thumb is 80% meat (muscle, fat, skin, connective
tissue, anything that isn't organ or bone), 10% organ and 10% bone.
The gizzards and heart that come with the chickens can be fed as meat.
Add only a tiny bit if liver (organ) at a meal.
Your pup should be eating 3 times a day at this time in his life.
Twice a day by 6 months and once a day before a year old.
Pups should be pottied frequently, after feeding, after drinking,
after playing, after crate time, every hour while awake, and when they
wake in the night. If you have your pup within your sight at all
times, you can see when he's looking for a spot to potty and take him
out asap. Keeping him on a 10-15 foot lead tied to your waist indoors
will insure he won't get out of sight, and that you're watching him at
all times. Keeping him on lead out doors will insure you can keep him
from eating the poop after he goes. Carrying a baggy or having a long
handled pooper scooper to pick up poops promptly will help eliminate a
lot of the opportunity to develop the habit of cophragia.
Raw fed dogs are, ime, happier, healthier, and longer lived. And they
do poop less, overall, lol.
Is this your first puppy?
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> My welsh terrier likes to eat his own crap, and he craps like 6
times a day. I just started raw feeding with yesterday's dinner. He is
16 weeks old. will raw feeding help me GET RID OF THIS GROSS PROBLEM?
> Also, I had asked about chicken. I had fed him cooked chicken
twice in the past and both times he threw up. Is is possible he is
allergic to chicken? I want to feed him some raw chicken, last night
and this a.m. he had cut up london broil raw. He's already crapped
twice this morning, and I caught him eating the second one. He ate
about half of it before I caught him. I HATE that habit and want to
get rid of it.
> I heard that raw fed dogs crap a lot less, so that should help me,
right?

Messages in this topic (14)
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5c. Re: another Question?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 8:58 am ((PDT))

Lyse Garant <lyse_garant@...> wrote:
>
> My welsh terrier likes to eat his own crap, and he craps like 6
times a day. I just started raw feeding with yesterday's dinner. He
is 16 weeks old. will raw feeding help me GET RID OF THIS GROSS
PROBLEM?
*****
A good raw diet will definitely get rid of six craps a day! My
goodness, whatever you are feeding it's going through your pup like
water. That alone would be enough to get me to switch to raw.

Appropriate raw diets are also highly digestible, which means the
waste is more real waste and is more likely to be undesirable. Stool
eating without extenuating circumstances like illness or learned
behavior is not necessarily terrible except for its lack of social
acceptability. I suggest you move your boy PRONTO to raw food for
healthy, high quality, easily digestible nutrition and then focus on
the stool eating.

> Also, I had asked about chicken. I had fed him cooked chicken
twice in the past and both times he threw up. Is is possible he is
allergic to chicken?
*****
Yes but his reaction does not necessarily indicate that. Raw protein
is just not the same animal as cooked (homecooked or kibblized).

I want to feed him some raw chicken, last night and this a.m. he
had cut up london broil raw. He's already crapped twice this morning,
and I caught him eating the second one.
*****
Did you feed the chicken and beef with kibble or alone? Were his
bowels still full of kibble? How much did you feed? What were the
stools like? For now, til we get to the root of whatever this is, I
recommend two actions. One, be there when he poops so that you can
immediately clean up after him and two, do not make clean up a noisy
keep-away sort of production. You may have inadvertently trained him
to beat you to it.

You are not likely to see the dramatic change you hope for. You may
have to intervene for some time before he gets the kibble out of his
system, and you will need time to tweak his new diet for maximum
nutrition and minimal stool. In the meantime, you should take
comfort in knowing that a good species appropriate diet beats all.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (14)
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5d. Re: another Question?
Posted by: "Lyse Garant" lyse_garant@yahoo.com lyse_garant
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 10:06 am ((PDT))

***EDITED BY MODERATOR: PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES OR RISK DELETION.***

Chris O., Thank you very much. Last night's raw beef, as well as this morning's was mixed with kibble, I was afraid to make too drastic and sudden a change. He did a third doot already today, outside of course, and didn't eat it because I was there...it was lighter in color than usual, and loose. His doots are usually darkish and well formed. I was feeding him Nutro Natural Choice Lamb & Rice, mixed with canned food of the same brand. I want to go raw, and plan to buy some chicken today. I hope the chicken stays down. Also, he didn't have any bone with his raw beef. Tonight, should I just go all raw? Or keep a bit of kibble in the mix until he switches over. What can I expect if I go completely raw tonight? Should I stay with beef since that's what I started with, or can I mix it already with chicken and a bit of bone? Thank you VERY MUCH for your help!!!
Lyse & Guinness

Messages in this topic (14)
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6.1. Re: Fish
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 7:18 am ((PDT))

Michele wrote:

>The fish thing did not go well by either dogs or cats any suggestions on how I can slip it
>in...just a little added with meat meal perhaps?

They don't have to be fed fish, but if you'd like to, then sure, nothing like
a little tuna slipped into one's steak tartare!

What does "did not go well" mean? If they sniffed and walked away, leave it
for 15-20 minutes, then put it back in the fridge until the next mealtime,
with no snacks in between. Offer it again. Repeat until they eat it.

Lora
Evanston, IL

Messages in this topic (134)
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6.2. Re: Fish
Posted by: "Maiakitas@aol.com" Maiakitas@aol.com maiakitas
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 8:28 am ((PDT))

Michele,

I am new to raw feeding myself, but just started adding fish as my next
protein after chicken. I first gave them a little butterfish and my bitch Bailey
ate everything but the head, yuck, and my male Beau just played with his. (He
did have a good time) The next piece was a bigger whole fish. Again, Bailey ate
the whole thing for breakfast and Beau just looked at his. I tried cutting it
open, extra yuck, and he didn't eat it. Next I seared lightly on both sides
with some garlic, and he ate the whole thing.

Perhaps a searing it a touch, might help. Just my 1/2 cents. :o)

Regards,
Carla

**************************************
See what's free at

http://www.aol.com.

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Messages in this topic (134)
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6.3. Re: Fish
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 8:40 am ((PDT))

"mob1043" <ynotbeastar@...> wrote:
>
> The fish thing did not go well by either dogs or cats any suggestions
on how I can slip it
> in...just a little added with meat meal perhaps?
*****
Fish is not necessarily welcomed; don't take it personally. Neither
species needs fish so if you're offering a good amount of protein
variety you should not despair if your pets refuse fish.

Yes, adding a little fish to a meal you know to be successful might
help.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (134)
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7a. Re: dental problems
Posted by: "Yuliya Brown" yuliya_brown@yahoo.com yuliya_brown
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 8:09 am ((PDT))

MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS, PLEASE!!

> It sounds as though you have been feeding only
> chicken, and are now switching
> over to only beef . . . is that correct?
------------
>What do you mean she is having a problem digesting
the chicken? >That isn't something that usually
happens after this long on the diet.
-------------
She's been eating mostly chicken for last 8 months or
so, with ocasional venison and tripe. I used to give
her pork feet at first but then I stoped for some
reason. right now I have in stock beef, beef liver,
beef heart, green tripe, pork heart and lamb necks.
She likes beef and tripe and venison. not to crazy
about liver, wouldn't eat it from the bowl, but ate
few pieces from my hand. What happened with chicken
is the following: she would have an occasional
diarreah after the chicken, not always but enought to
destory rug and carpet in few rooms. two weeks or so
ago, she ate chicken and it shoot right through her I
had to get up in the middle of the night and clean the
carpet ( not a big fan ot if) then few days later it
happened again. So I thought that maybe something
wrong with that chicken so I tossed it out and got a
new one, same thing happened. then few days later I
came home and there was diarreah again on the floor
with several blood stains. I got freaked out and took
her to the vet, who said that she has a bacterial
infection, very common in dogs usually from eating
feces, but it could be from the chicken as well. My
dog was eating tonns of grass, so vet thought that she
could've gotten that bacteria with the grass. anyway,
antibiotics put the end to this. After that my dog
wouldn't even touch the chicken, even after being
hungry for two days. so I tossed it out and switched
to beef and left over of venison, hadn't had a problem
yet. Hopefully won't.
Also, what I give her to chew on is the dried ears and
some other things that made out of the animal skin
that you can buy in the pet store and occasionally
treats from the pet store, but she only gets it on
occasion after bath or grooming.

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7b. Re: dental problems
Posted by: "Yuliya Brown" yuliya_brown@yahoo.com yuliya_brown
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 8:10 am ((PDT))

____________________________________________________________________________________
The fish are biting.
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Messages in this topic (7)
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7c. Re: dental problems
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 9:12 am ((PDT))

Hi, Yuliya!
The problem is probably not with the chicken, it may have been
enhanced with salt solution or flavorings or seasonings. some dogs
have trouble with that. NPs, just check the label of any chicken you
want to buy first.
It could be too much bone, for this individual dog, on a steady diet
of chicken, especially if it was mostly backs, necks or other bony parts.
It could also be that the chewies you have been giving her are not
agreeing with her. These items are cooked, and have additives and
flavorings that aren't good for her. I would only give raw/frozen
chicken feet, pig ears, etc. Not processed ones from the pet store.
Pork feet should be OK, but she may get loose stools or diarrhea from
them, they tend to be bony and fatty, and you might want to limit how
much she chews on them daily.
If she has an irritated gut, with or without blood in the stool, you
can soothe it with a fast of a day and some doses of Slippery Elm Bark
Powder. You can get that at a health food store.
Giving her larger parts to work on will help clean her teeth. Its not
just the bone that provides dental health, but the action of tearing
and shearing meat, gristle, etc. from Big Food, too.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> She's been eating mostly chicken for last 8 months or
> so, with occasional venison and tripe. I used to give
> her pork feet at first but then I stopped for some
> reason. right now I have in stock beef, beef liver,
> beef heart, green tripe, pork heart and lamb necks.
> She likes beef and tripe and venison. not to crazy
> about liver, wouldn't eat it from the bowl, but ate
> few pieces from my hand. What happened with chicken
> is the following: she would have an occasional
> diarrhea after the chicken, not always but enough to
> destroy rug and carpet in few rooms. two weeks or so
> ago, she ate chicken and it shoot right through her I
> had to get up in the middle of the night and clean the
> carpet ( not a big fan of it) then few days later it
> happened again. So I thought that maybe something
> wrong with that chicken so I tossed it out and got a
> new one, same thing happened. then few days later I
> came home and there was diarrhea again on the floor
> with several blood stains. I got freaked out and took
> her to the vet, who said that she has a bacterial
> infection, very common in dogs usually from eating
> feces, but it could be from the chicken as well. My
> dog was eating tons of grass, so vet thought that she
> could've gotten that bacteria with the grass. Anyway,
> antibiotics put the end to this. After that my dog
> wouldn't even touch the chicken, even after being
> hungry for two days. so I tossed it out and switched
> to beef and left over of venison, hadn't had a problem
> yet. Hopefully won't.
> Also, what I give her to chew on is the dried ears and
> some other things that made out of the animal skin
> that you can buy in the pet store and occasionally
> treats from the pet store, but she only gets it on
> occasion after bath or grooming.

Messages in this topic (7)
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7d. Re: dental problems
Posted by: "Yuliya Brown" yuliya_brown@yahoo.com yuliya_brown
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 10:04 am ((PDT))

> Giving her larger parts to work on will help clean
> her teeth. Its not
> just the bone that provides dental health, but the
> action of tearing
> and shearing meat, gristle, etc. from Big Food, too.
that's what I was thinking too, give her larger parts
to chew on, the only concern I have is that if I give
her more than what she can eat at once then what will
I do with the rest? it's so hot outside I worry that
the food will go bad. She eats outside on the
backyard, I didn't feel comfortable with her drugging
raw meets around the house, I have small kids and
husband whose immune system is not very good.
thakn you for your answers.
Yuliya

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8a. Getting ready to take the plunge!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 8:25 am ((PDT))

Lori Poirier <chaparraltrail@...> wrote:
>
> Posted by: "erica" ericagordon@...:
> Once Sophie finishes her kibble we will be switching
> her to raw! We know not to mix the 2!
>
> Why would it be a problem to mix them?
*****
Kibble dumbs down the nutritional value of a raw meal and raw food
cannot save kibble. There is nothing to be gained from feeding kibble
once the commitment has been made to feeding a species appropriate
diet, except perhaps the dubious savings achieved by feeding through
remaining kibble.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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8b. Getting ready to take the plunge!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 8:33 am ((PDT))

"seaneboyee" <seaneboyee@...> wrote:
>
> I believe mixing the two is bad because of the differences in
digestion.
*****
The sad fact is kibble and raw meat generally digest okay together.
This reality seems to be enough to justify--for some people--the
practice. The fact that kibble is in its own right wrong appears to be
lost on them. There are many people who add raw meat (and other raw
foods that are not species appropriate) to kibble and feel virtuous for
having done so.

Digestive distress is likely to occur when edible bone is fed with
kibble.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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9. WHOOO HOO!!!
Posted by: "Linda Edgington" lindagail849@yahoo.com lindagail849
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 8:40 am ((PDT))

Gizzy is eating his first thigh!!!!!!!!!!! He just looked at it for a bit and now is eating it. I cut a little bit of the meat off and gave to sass. But he's eating it. I also cut the skin off, do I want to be doing this???? Will he eat that bone, or is that too big for him? (toy poodle 5#). He should at least chew on it a bit? How long should it be left out for him. He is fed in his kennel. I suppose as long as he's chewing, huh? (that was kinda a blond question :} )

Linda

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10. new with many questions
Posted by: "faithk99" faithkohn@gmail.com faithk99
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 10:01 am ((PDT))

We have 3 dogs plus 2 visiting dogs on a regular basis. We switched to
the barf diet and as I read more, I am finding more information on raw
feeding instead. From this list it seems that raw feeding is better
for than the barf diet. I don't know enough about either diet. Could
someone explain the pros and cons or differences between the two diets?

I also read online that raw feeding is bad due to the bacteria and
digestive problems it could cause your pet. Is this true?

My feeling and instict tells me raw feeding is the way to go, but my
lack of knowledge makes me fearful that maybe my pets are not getting
proper nutrition or maybe they would be hurt in some way.

Please help.

Thank you,

Faith

Messages in this topic (1)
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11a. Re: Newbie - introduction - bought chicken - what to do with it?
Posted by: "Patrice Quinn" patrice@patricequinn.com patrice_quinn
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 10:02 am ((PDT))

***EDITED BY MODERATOR. TRIM YOUR MESSAGES OR RISK LOSING THEM.***

"...I have been able to source from local organic farmers..."

Hi Kerry, this is Patrice in Lake Havasu City. Could you let me know how to
get in touch with the organic farmers you're dealing with? I'm wondering if
they would ship to me or help me find someone closer to me to order from.
Are you as shocked as I am at how the dogs have taken to raw? It's only
been two weeks for us but I still can't get over their immediate joy at
prey" feeding. My "kids" are are three little 10 lb. dachsies, how about
you? Take care, Kerry, and thanks,

Patrice
LHC, AZ

Messages in this topic (4)
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12. Moral Support and Feedback
Posted by: "meg_helmes" mhelmes@gmail.com meg_helmes
Date: Sun Jul 8, 2007 10:03 am ((PDT))

Hello everyone!
I have been raw feeding my 2 1/2 (ish) pit bull mix (52#) for about 4
weeks now, and she really loves it. I have been very lucky in that she
will eat anything with a little coaxing, and has adapted well to
several different proteins. She started with chicken leg quarters, and
I then added pork (picnic roasts), which she readily eats, skin bone
and all. She has also been getting a ground beef/tripe mix that was a
gift from a wonderful friend (like everyone, we are on a tight budget,
so I was really pumped to get beef & tripe! I feed it mostly frozen to
make it a little more work). She eats frozen liver and kidney like a
champ. I have been combining one chicken back with a big chuck or pork
or kidney to make a healthier meal that still fits the budget. She has
also gotten big turkey necks (with added meaty meat). I think I am
doing pretty good on variety and content one month in, right? I've
been reading everything going through the list and make good use of
the archives as much as possible.

Well, my pup is sick. She has a raging UTI (she is peeing blood and
obviously miserable when she tries to go). Of course, critters love to
get sick on Sundays, right? She won't eat, and a little while ago she
threw up a little in the kitchen... I know you can all relate to
feeling of being a bad parent when your pet gets sick. This is her
second UTI this year (she had at least three last year). I was really
hoping the raw would help with this, and it still may, I know its
early. Her skin problems (staph & allergies problems) keep flaring up
as well. I am trying not to waiver on feeding raw. This is what my dog
needs, right? She just looks so sad and unhappy right now, and this
is the first time she's vomited when she's had a UTI.

I just need a little diet feedback, and maybe a little cheerleading?

Meg
Ruby (the wonderpit who looks so sad!)

Messages in this topic (1)
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