Feed Pets Raw Food: Jul 25, 2007

Wednesday, July 25, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11843

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Raw Chicken
From: kristinasantes
1b. Re: Raw Chicken
From: Chia
1c. Re: Raw Chicken
From: Sandee Lee
1d. Re: Raw Chicken
From: kristinasantes
1e. Re: Raw Chicken
From: Sandee Lee

2a. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Last Question, Promise-For Today
From: doreenchui
2b. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Last Question, Promise-For Today
From: Chia
2c. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Last Question, Promise-For Today
From: Sandee Lee
2d. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Last Question, Promise-For Today
From: costrowski75

3a. Starting out a Tibetan Spaniel on rawfeeding
From: susanne_webber
3b. Re: Starting out a Tibetan Spaniel on rawfeeding
From: Chia
3c. Re: Starting out a Tibetan Spaniel on rawfeeding
From: Sandee Lee
3d. Re: Starting out a Tibetan Spaniel on rawfeeding
From: costrowski75

4. Question from Newbie
From: delcaste

5.1. Metabolism - WAS: Re: recreational bones
From: Nathalie Poulin
5.2. Re: Metabolism - WAS: Re: recreational bones
From: Sandee Lee

6. Dehydrated Liver considerations
From: ychinook

7a. Re: help for IBS
From: Sandee Lee
7b. Re: help for IBS
From: Nathalie Poulin

8a. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Won't Eat Frozen Either
From: Shannon Hully
8b. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Won't Eat Frozen Either
From: costrowski75

9a. Re: Duck? How rich?
From: Nathalie Poulin

10. Questions RE rawfeeding GSP Sambuca--now he has 'die' 'a' 'rear' ha
From: Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com

11.1. Re: turkey necks
From: Rebecca Little

12a. Newbie here
From: paperfibe

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Raw Chicken
Posted by: "kristinasantes" kristinasantes@yahoo.com kristinasantes
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:51 pm ((PDT))

Hi,

Thank you very much,
Kristina

Messages in this topic (10)
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1b. Re: Raw Chicken
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:04 pm ((PDT))

I am pretty new to the group. I bought at Trader Jo's some raw chicken
drumsticks and whole raw chicken for my 3 years old boxer. Can I just
give it the way it is without worring that she is going to chock on
chicken bones?
#### I would definitely give a dog new to raw a half or whole chicken...to
train him how to eat properly since he will not know exactly what to do.
With a small drumstick only, he may gulp it.

In time, once he teaches himself how to chomp, gulp, tear, as nature
designed him to, you will be able to gauge whether or not he can be offered
smaller parts from time to time.

BUT, that is with your careful but discreet observation ... your judgement.
It is always a case of 'know thy dog' . That phrase will be earned with
time.

Take the whole or half chicken, depending on how large your dog. Perhaps
slash the flesh a bit so he can see it is meat, and let him discover how
lovely REAL food is. If he refuses it. Don't make a fuss, remove after a
short while, and offer the next day.

Chia & Ricco
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Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: Raw Chicken
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:12 pm ((PDT))

Yes you can, Kristina. Probably the majority of the over 9000 members of
this list feed chicken!! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "kristinasantes" <kristinasantes@yahoo.com>
I am pretty new to the group. I bought at Trader Jo's some raw chicken
drumsticks and whole raw chicken for my 3 years old boxer. Can I just
give it the way it is without worring that she is going to chock on
chicken bones?

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

1d. Re: Raw Chicken
Posted by: "kristinasantes" kristinasantes@yahoo.com kristinasantes
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:34 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> Yes you can, Kristina. Probably the majority of the over 9000
members of
> this list feed chicken!! :)
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>
> From: "kristinasantes" <kristinasantes@...>
> I am pretty new to the group. I bought at Trader Jo's some raw
chicken
> drumsticks and whole raw chicken for my 3 years old boxer. Can I just
> give it the way it is without worring that she is going to chock on
> chicken bones?
>
I have been giving her chicken breasts with no bones. I thought it
used to be said that dogs can choke on small chicken bones. Please
correct me if i am wrong. Can I give just a whole chicken wihh all the
bones there?
Sorry, I am relly new to this, but I have best wishes for me dog :)

Kristina

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

1e. Re: Raw Chicken
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:43 pm ((PDT))

Yes, the whole chicken with all the bones...as long as they are raw!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "kristinasantes" <kristinasantes@yahoo.com>
>
I have been giving her chicken breasts with no bones. I thought it
used to be said that dogs can choke on small chicken bones. Please
correct me if i am wrong. Can I give just a whole chicken wihh all the
bones there?

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Last Question, Promise-For Today
Posted by: "doreenchui" doreenchui@yeos.com doreenchui
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:51 pm ((PDT))

I started on raw about 2 months ago. My fussy whippet doesn't eat
anything for long . Kibbles and raw inclusive. I been feeding raw
chicken, beef, mutton. Sometimes 1 kind aday and sometimes I mix 2
kinds. He eats for 2 days and stop eating for 1 or 2 days. I keep
throwing meat away. Raw is in the morning and evening he gets Abady.
Pls advise.
Doreen

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Last Question, Promise-For Today
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:02 pm ((PDT))

### fussy dogs are made, not born, I stopped trying to please my dog LONG
ago and he gets what's offered and goes hungry till 24 hours later if he
doesn't care to eat it , period.

Of course, this is said assuming your dog is healthy, with no teeth/oral
issues of course.

Are you saying you are feeding raw & kibble? If so, why? Kibble truly is a
horrible product and should be discarded entirely. Is he digesting the
variety properly? Any digestive upsets with so much variety after only two
months? How old is he? Truly we need more details. But, the one thing you
may wish to do, or perhaps, 'should' do, is create a hungrier dog. Feeding
once a day is a much better way to encourage an appetite and also encourage
all dogs to eat large, cumbersome pieces that clean his/her teeth and create
a longer meal duration which also lets them feel more satisfied. Imagine
him tearing into a half a chicken..really having to work for his meal.

Remember, a dog is a Wolf. Feed as close to nature as possible. Large
meals, smaller meals..the odd fast, which your dog seems to do... all this
will enhance his digestion, cure his fussiness, and get him as healthy as
possible. Why throw meat away? These are dogs, remember? I give my dog
meat that is past due on a regular basis. Keeps him strong!!
Remember..these are predator, dogs...not people with fur. ;-))

Chia & Ricco

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Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

2c. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Last Question, Promise-For Today
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:15 pm ((PDT))

Doreen,

Dump the kibble, feed him raw. No need to throw food away. If he doesn't
eat it, put it back in the fridge and serve it at the next meal.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "doreenchui" <doreenchui@yeos.com>

Messages in this topic (6)
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2d. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Last Question, Promise-For Today
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:40 pm ((PDT))

"doreenchui" <doreenchui@...> wrote:
I been feeding raw
> chicken, beef, mutton. Sometimes 1 kind aday and sometimes I mix 2
> kinds. He eats for 2 days and stop eating for 1 or 2 days. I keep
> throwing meat away. Raw is in the morning and evening he gets Abady.
> Pls advise.
*****
One. Get rid of the Abady. When he's hungry, let him eat real food.

Two. Take his lead. When he's hungry he'll eat. When he turns way
from what you've offered, collect it back up and feed it again at the
next meal. Did I mention get rid of the Abady? Get rid of Abady.

Three. Change the subject line when you change topics. Or start a
whole brand new topic of your own.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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3a. Starting out a Tibetan Spaniel on rawfeeding
Posted by: "susanne_webber" susanne_webber@yahoo.com susanne_webber
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:51 pm ((PDT))

Hi,
i am planning to switch my Tibetan Spaniel (toy sized dog) to
rawfeeding. Couple of questions:
1. Can brown rice be added to the diet? He loves it!
2. Can anyone recommend a supplement? Are these a good idea?

He has a collapsed tracea which I believe kibble is irritating because
he seems to cough a lot after eating.
Thanks for your help!
Susanne

Messages in this topic (4)
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3b. Re: Starting out a Tibetan Spaniel on rawfeeding
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:08 pm ((PDT))

#### Rice is NOT appropriate for a carnivore in any way. That he loves it
is not a reason to feed it. Those calories are not digestible and strain
the digestive system only doing him harm.

Give him all the nutrients he deserves from the flesh and organs of assorted
animals sticking with one only for a week or two to let him adapt.

Remember, kibble fed dogs that 'love' certain things, usually do so because
they are in a constant state of hunger and malnutrition. With a little time,
all cravings or most at least, for inappropriate foods, disappears since
they truly become content and satisfied.

Fresh, real carcasses or large meaty bones, no vaccines or chemicals..lots
of fresh, pure water and exercise. It doesn't get any better then that!

Chia & Ricco

(the only supplement would be fish oil if commercially raised meats are fed
and if your dog doesn't like to consume fish).

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Messages in this topic (4)
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3c. Re: Starting out a Tibetan Spaniel on rawfeeding
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:13 pm ((PDT))

Hi Susanne,

No rice, no supplements unless there is a need. I would concentrate on
getting him switched to raw and then give him a little rice as a treat
occasionally if he handles it ok.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "susanne_webber" <susanne_webber@yahoo.com>
i am planning to switch my Tibetan Spaniel (toy sized dog) to
rawfeeding. Couple of questions:
1. Can brown rice be added to the diet? He loves it!
2. Can anyone recommend a supplement? Are these a good idea?

Messages in this topic (4)
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3d. Re: Starting out a Tibetan Spaniel on rawfeeding
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:50 pm ((PDT))

"susanne_webber" <susanne_webber@...> wrote:

> i am planning to switch my Tibetan Spaniel (toy sized dog) to
> rawfeeding. Couple of questions:
> 1. Can brown rice be added to the diet? He loves it!
*****
Doesn't matter that he loves brown rice. He'll love real food too,
and real food--meat, edible bones, organs--will be much better for
him. Ditch the rice. Later, after you and he have gotten yourselves
squared away on a good raw diet, maybe then you might give him rice
treats every once in a while. But for now? Nope.

2. Can anyone recommend a supplement? Are these a good idea?
*****
Specific supplements can be helpful when dealing with specific health
issues. No health issues, no supplements. Assume none are needed
until your dog shows you otherwise. Spend your doggiedollars on the
best foods you can afford!

> He has a collapsed tracea which I believe kibble is irritating
because
> he seems to cough a lot after eating.
*****
While kibble is at the very least irritating, I'm guessing there are
other factors involved here. I know nothing about collapsed tracheas
but I DO know there are people on this list who can help you create
the best menu for your boy.

It's good you've chosen to get rid of the kibble.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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4. Question from Newbie
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:28 pm ((PDT))

My two pugs gulp their food, whatever it is big or small and once they
have gulped everything, they swallow it and immediately throw it back
up. They do this about three/four times while they are eating. This is
an everyday thing. I caught one rolling on the floor going round and
round til I got the food out of her throat. She does use her paws to
tear at her food very gingerly to some extent. The other bozo goes all
over the floor trying his best not to come close to the raw meat. Is
this style of eating normal? I don't think they'll be growing out of
this.(I never mention the Pittie because he's such a great eater, lol.)

Silvina and the pugs

Messages in this topic (1)
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5.1. Metabolism - WAS: Re: recreational bones
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:29 pm ((PDT))

This is great, thanks so much!
I went to the butcher today and bought a goat
shoulder/part of the leg, and when I laid it down for
Poe (german shepherd/husky) she only decided to eat it
when she saw the bone part. She seemed to focus a lot
on the bone. There is lots of meat on it, and she
really seemed to like it, but really went for the
bone. She ate for about an hour.
I figure by the time she finishes it, there's enough
meat on it that she'll be fine.

Another thing, I notice she's been pooping a LOT
lately, even though it's pretty dry and crumbly
(probably from all the bone she eats). Is this normal?
I'm talking like, 3 or 4 times a day/night.
She's had accidents in the house for the past 3
nights. I'm assuming that I'm feeding her too late
(sometimes 4pm, sometimes 6pm or 7pm) so I'm going to
start feeding her earlier and hope that she'll pooh
before bed and not during the night on the floor..
Do you notice that when you feed at a specific time
that they pooh at a specific time? It seems like she
isn't quite pooping out everything that she needs to,
so she does it in intervals.
She doesn't seem constipated though, she doesn't have
to strain to get it out.

How fast do your dogs metabolize a meat meal? Or a
bonier meal?

And this little aside:
Also, the butcher laughed when I told him the meat was
for my dog and he told me that he wished his wife
would feed him as well as I feed my dog! They even
gave me a free goat neck (that's worth about 10$-$15)
on top of the one that I bought because they like how
much meat I buy for my dog!

Nathalie

. The amount
> of time it takes
> a dog to eat will vary according to the size and
> dentitia of the dog
> and the size an shape of the meal. Denise
>
>

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Messages in this topic (38)
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5.2. Re: Metabolism - WAS: Re: recreational bones
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:34 pm ((PDT))

Dry and crumbly is normal when you feed too much bone. And I find with my
Dane after a bony meal, when he has to go, he has to go right NOW! That dry
crumbly stuff just seems to want to pop out! :)

I think when you start feeding more meat that problem will be solved.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Nathalie Poulin" <poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca>
>
> Another thing, I notice she's been pooping a LOT
> lately, even though it's pretty dry and crumbly
> (probably from all the bone she eats). Is this normal?
> I'm talking like, 3 or 4 times a day/night.
> She's had accidents in the house for the past 3
> nights.

Messages in this topic (38)
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6. Dehydrated Liver considerations
Posted by: "ychinook" chinook.nr@tds.net ychinook
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:30 pm ((PDT))

I've done a little googling regarding the nutrient contribution of
dehydrated liver to take into account. So far all I've found is a
study using rats so I thought I'd ask here as one or more of you have
probably already done more extensive research.

I keep a good supply of dehydrated grass fed beef liver on hand for
treats and with my 130 lb malamute the amount given is not significant
in his diet, but for my wife's new GR puppy I'm thinking such should
be taken into account. By taken into account I'm going on the premise
that raw liver should not be more than three to five percent of diet
over time - actually I probably average out to about 3 percent of my
malamutes diet.

So, does dehydrated liver contribute the same amount of nutrients and
especially the fat soluble vitamins as raw liver or something less?

Best to all,
Lee, Karen, Buddy Bear and Holly

PS: I took a cute photo of little Holly (the GR puppy) taking Buddy
Bear (the 130 lb malamute) for a walk, but cant seem to figure out how
to share the photo here. So if you'd like to see it just drop me a
line.

Messages in this topic (1)
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7a. Re: help for IBS
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:43 pm ((PDT))

Hi Lynda,

What have blood tests shown? Any out of whack pancreatic or liver enzymes?
This could be the result of chronic pancreatitis...or something like IBD or
colitis. If she has pancreatitis, it would be nice to know so you can find
the cause and treat it...and supplement her diet with the appropriate
enzymes.

Regardless, the very best you can do is get them both switched to raw ASAP!
Start out with frequent small meals for the girl, possibly remove fat and go
low bone in the beginning. I think I would also use a good digestive enzyme
for her.

You might just want to start her out with bone-in chicken breasts...lots of
meat and small easily digestible bones. The male could get a quarter of a
chicken easily.

You really need to get this resolved...this is not healthy and she needs to
be back in the house with her family. So dump the kibble, canned, yogurt
and psyllium and get this girl going on the best possible diet, which of
course is raw!! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "lhmcmaken" <lhmcmaken@yahoo.com>

Her problem is diarrhea
that starts for no reason I can figure out, and can continue for more
then a week. Very liquid and horrid. I have cleaned up her messes
more than 100 times now and just can not handle it any more. So we
are keeping them outside until we can figure it out. I have given her
different human anti diarrhea pills and that has helped sometimes. I
have given her probiotic, yogurt, restricted her food intake,
switched from canned back to kibble, added psyllium husks and slippery
elm bark capsules. But I do not know the dosage to use for the
psyllium (am doing ½ teaspoon) or for the SEB. Once I over dosed her
and she got constipated. I would love to go raw for both dogs but
with her diarreaha I am just afraid to. In the reading of the posts
to this group, it seems upset stomach and bowels is commen. Sorry for
this long post but I am confused about what to do, and very sad that
both dogs can no longer be housedogs.

Messages in this topic (4)
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7b. Re: help for IBS
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:25 pm ((PDT))

Take the dogs off kibble IMMEDIATELY.
No more kibble junk, no more canned junk.
The diarrhea is probably from the crappy kibble. There
is no such thing as the "best" kibble.
KIBBLE = GARBAGE. PERIOD.

Seriously, if you care about your dogs' health, go out
RIGHT NOW and buy a whole chicken, cut it in half and
give each half to your dogs.

Chicken is the blandest and most easily digestable
meat/bones. Feeding her REAL food, with the bones from
the chicken should help her stomach issues.
And if she has a litte diarrhea while her body
adjusts, is that really as bad as CONSTANT diarrhea?
At least with raw, it *should go away.
(*Ruling out any worms/sickness etc)

From what it sounds like, your dogs would probably
benefit HUGELY if you switched to raw.
Chicken backs are too bony for dogs as big as great
danes!

Try whole chicken for a week or 2, just to see if it
helps your pups, and if it works as well as I imagine
it will, post us with an update and we'll help get you
onto other meats.
Feeding raw it the BEST thing you can do your dogs!
You should also check the archives for previous posts
about IBS, there's lots of information there.

But first things first, GET THEM OFF THE KIBBLE!

Nathalie

ps. go to

www.rawfed.com/myths

and check out the
wealth of information that's there.

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Messages in this topic (4)
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8a. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Won't Eat Frozen Either
Posted by: "Shannon Hully" summerwolf@theherbalhotline.com bluehankw
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:24 pm ((PDT))

I've been gone for quite some time so hopefully I'm not stepping on any
toes just jumping into the discussion like this.

Actually, cats did not evolve to eat "old" food. They are obligate
carnivores and don't scavenge, (generally. Domesticated cats have
learned unnatural things about garbage cans.). They don't have the
same quality of digestive enzymes as our dogs do, so they cannot handle
older, spoiling meat nearly as well. Nor can they handle cold meat.
Since they eat only what they kill, and they usually don't kill
anything large, their system isn't evolved to deal with meat that has
been left to cool.

Cats of all ages can be switched, I switched my three (the oldest was
12 when we switched him, and he took to it the fastest!) this past
January and there's been no looking back. It took the younger two a
while to really get into it, but it was so worth it.

Good luck with your cats, they tend to be much more difficult to switch
but it really is worth the effort.

Shannon H.

>
> Have you been able to figure out why they are so stubborn?
>
>
>
> I realized it was only when the meat was
> > not really fresh, just like cats)
> *****
> I have only fed raw to two cats, one switched as an adult, the other
> at 3 months. Both, from day one, were not only willing to eat "old"
> food but also thrilled to. Is this "fresh or death" dichotomy a cat
> thing that my cats haven't heard about, or is it a learned behavior
> I somehow managed to not teach?
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (17)
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8b. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Won't Eat Frozen Either
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:54 pm ((PDT))

"Shannon Hully" <summerwolf@...> wrote:
> Actually, cats did not evolve to eat "old" food. They are obligate
> carnivores and don't scavenge, (generally. Domesticated cats have
> learned unnatural things about garbage cans.). They don't have the
> same quality of digestive enzymes as our dogs do, so they cannot
handle
> older, spoiling meat nearly as well.
*****
Ah, well it's a good thing my cats can't read. I'll not tell them
they're not supposed to eat "old" food and I certainly won't tell them
I'm supposed to be feeding them freshly killed food and I suspect we'll
continue to get by.

Good to know though. Thank you.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (17)
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9a. Re: Duck? How rich?
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:25 pm ((PDT))

You could still feed her the lamb, just add SMALL
pieces to the turkey. Same with chicken and pork.
Start small until her body gets used to it then
gradually increase.
Also, stick with just one meat source (with the
turkey). If you have lots of lamb, start with tiny
chunks here and there added to the turkey.
As for the duck, always start a new protein slowly!
Again, just add small pieces every few meals or so to
make sure her body gets used to it.
My dog was 9 months when I got her and I just started
her with a whole chicken. It lasted a few days and
then I gave her pork. 2 days later I threw in some
goat. I figure that she's a pup and probably
resilient. She had some loose poops but now she eats
almost everything I give her, except wild hare.. she
doesn't seem to like that much.
Anyways, just go REALLY slow with introductions to new
meat.

Nathalie

--- Sonja <ladyver@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> My lab has been eating turkey, mostly. She's OK with
> chicken and pork maybe once a week, but if I feed
> more of either to her she tends to have reactions to
> it. I'm contemplating trying duck.....do I need to
> go slow with this protein? When we first started
> raw, I got too ambitious and threw lamb at her too
> soon. The poor dog paid for my mistake for three
> days. I still have all of that frozen lamb but would
> like to know where duck falls into the raw feeding
> mix. Is it considered too rich for a dog who is
> doing well on turkey and has exposure to a few other
> proteins?
>
> Thanks in advance!
>

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Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10. Questions RE rawfeeding GSP Sambuca--now he has 'die' 'a' 'rear' ha
Posted by: "Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com" Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com irishcateyes1
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:34 pm ((PDT))

Anyway, enough with my bad joke--not enough sleep last night provokes such
crassness.

Sambuca has been RAW fed for a week and a half now. He has been getting
minimally/or not enhanced chicken quarters, whole fryer chickens quartered,
gizzards, and a few hearts for over a week with no problems.

Now two days ago, in a moment of daftness, I decide to get some chicken liver
and instead of giving him a small amount (I found out after I gave it to him)
I loaded the boy up with about 2 1/2 Tablespoons worth in a day. Too much?
Yeah for him I think so. :)

And to make it worse, that same day I also bought different chicken than I
had been feeding (Perdue--enhanced with 12% chicken "broth")--again, mistake as
I forgot to read the package. So along with the enhanced chicken and the
'McD's supersized' serving of liver my boy developed explosive diarrhea that day
and the next. The last two nights and days have not been too incredibly fun
and lesson learned--never shop on three hours of sleep and always read the fine
print . . .

Today is the third day of the upset tummy, but it has improved because when I
realized my mistake yesterday evening, I made a point to return to the store
early this morning and buy the right chicken for him. I bought what I had
been feeding him previously with no problems--chicken without enhancements and no
additional liver for the time being.

His poop is better today (more frothy (sorry) now and mucousy--but not as
watery but again not yet solid). DH was freaking out on me in the wee hours of
the morning and discussing the horrid K word to firm him up temporarily. NOPE
not going happen and didn't. :) HA!

So today is the first day of returning to serve him the non-enhanced chicken
and I am wondering when he will be back to "normal" as far as his poops are
concerned? I did notice today was better and not so sudden and frequent nor as
volatile. :)

How long is too long for diarrhea for a 9 week old pup?

Next question. . . if it was just the liver I think I would have noticed an
improvement by the third day of not feeding anymore, correct? Going on this
assumption, I think it was more of the enhanced chicken that has caused this
issue. Possibly it could have been a double whammy too.

Also, it couldn't be from switching him from K (breeder's) to raw and it just
finally taking effect after 1 1/2 weeks could it? He had been doing so well
until I made those two dietary changes, unfortunately all in the same day.

What do you think?

P.S. Anyone have any good human recipes for cooking 10lbs + of enhanced
chicken quarters and bone in breasts??? ;) LOL! Guess what is for dinner
tonight. . .

Another note. . how can you tell the difference btwn too skinny and a healthy
lean? I can now see a waistline on him and feel more ribs, but I also wonder
if he looks "too caved in" on the sides and can feel his backbone more. What
is normal?? Again, Sambuca is 9 weeks old today and he weighed 16.9 lbs when
I got him 1 1/2 weeks ago and today he weighed 19 lbs. He is also getting
taller so that might be part of the weight gain too.

Also, might be worth mentioning here. . the past two days I have noticed an
occasional clicking sound when he walks. Almost sounds like nails on hardwood
floors but it does it on carpet and on the grass except a little deeper. He
doesn't seem to notice or act any different nor be in any pain. I took him to
a reg vet today (1st visit and last as we are in the process of finding a
holistic vet who's views are similar to ours). The vet mentioned he was tender in
his left rear leg near the knee and that both knees had cartiledge deposits
on them and they might be flapping around. Has anyone heard of this esp at 9
weeks?? He said we need to watch it and if it worsens or if we see any
lameness we need X-rays. As of right now just wait it out and monitor him and he may
outgrow it.

Again, Sambuca doesn't act any different and the clicking doesn't happen all
the time. The vet 'mentioned' (ha using that word lightly) that it could be a
result of his current inadequate diet. Tsk Tsk, right? Yeah right. Anyway,
he suggested I supplement for the "best nutrition"(get this. . you ready. . )
with K? And Purina no doubt. YIKES! I knew this visit would be unpleasant
but never realized to this extreme. He said dogs are not carnivores but
omnivores and they also need vitamins that only Purina K can provide. Sounds like
the commercial, doesn't it?? I almost silently laughed myself into hysteria.
So again last visit, but my biggest concern was the clicking. Any feedback?

Am I doing something wrong since I have noticed a visual weight loss even
though it may be how he is supposed to look? I know this is the only beginning
stages and until the diarrhea clears up I want to wait on adding another
protein source. I doubt it is what I am doing but thought I would ask in case I am
missing something simple.

Thanks again for your advice and for your patience in reading my diatribe. :)

Tamatha and Sambuca (GSD)

Any dog can teach a child responsibility and commitment.

A German Shepherd Dog will show the child the meaning
of dedication.

"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life,
his love, his leader. He will be yours faithful and true, to the last beat of
his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion." --Unknown

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Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11.1. Re: turkey necks
Posted by: "Rebecca Little" pbgs@delhitel.net canucme278
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:37 pm ((PDT))

My guys LOVE turkey necks and take their time chewing them completely with no issues even my 95lb male!
Rebecca Little
Peakes Brook German Shepherds
http://sites.centralpets.com/mammals/peakesbrookgsd/index.html

----- Original Message -----
From: michelleraia1
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 7:22 PM
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: turkey necks

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.***

My 40 LB 8 month old standard poodle has been eating turkey necks since
he started on raw....about two months now....It was one of his first
RMBs and he has never had a problem with them.

Messages in this topic (67)
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________________________________________________________________________

12a. Newbie here
Posted by: "paperfibe" CollageStudio@bendbroadband.com paperfibe
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:00 pm ((PDT))

Hi all, I've been reading posts and thought I'd better introduce
myself and my new raw fed crew two one year old bulldogs Doc and Wyatt..
They have been eating Canidae kibble until last week. I made the
decision to switch to Raw and have started the boys with elk so far.
Heres a link to their blog of their change over.
http://docwyattraw.blogspot.com/

Looking forward to learning from this group as well has hopefully
someday adding some of my own impute!:)
Deb
Bend, OR

Messages in this topic (17)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11842

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Last Question, Promise-For Today
From: Maiakitas@aol.com
1b. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Last Question, Promise-For Today
From: costrowski75

2a. Re: Day # 2....still vomiting!
From: chandler_baby
2b. Re: Day # 2....still vomiting!
From: Cindy Marabito
2c. Re: Day # 2....still vomiting!
From: pet.wellness

3a. Comprehensive exam at Vet office
From: Yasuko herron
3b. Re: Comprehensive exam at Vet office
From: Michelle LaFay
3c. ADMIN/Re: Comprehensive exam at Vet office
From: costrowski75

4.1. Re: Fish
From: Yasuko herron

5a. Life after chicken
From: Eve
5b. Re: Life after chicken
From: magolin0328

6. Ginny and Tomo are Famous!!!
From: woofwoofgrrl

7a. Re: pawing at mouth after meals
From: woofwoofgrrl

8.1. Re: turkey necks
From: costrowski75
8.2. Re: turkey necks
From: Laura Atkinson
8.3. Re: turkey necks
From: costrowski75
8.4. Re: turkey necks
From: Laura Atkinson
8.5. Re: turkey necks
From: michelleraia1
8.6. Re: turkey necks
From: Laura Atkinson

9a. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Won't Eat Frozen Either
From: costrowski75

10a. help for IBS
From: lhmcmaken
10b. Re: help for IBS
From: mandarini_gg

11a. Re: Digest Number 11840
From: Bumble1994@aol.com
11b. Re: Digest Number 11840
From: Bumble1994@aol.com

12. Duck? How rich?
From: Sonja

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Last Question, Promise-For Today
Posted by: "Maiakitas@aol.com" Maiakitas@aol.com maiakitas
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:46 pm ((PDT))

Hi All,

I searched the files because I thought I saw this mentioned somewhere, but
could not find it. Since I have been adding beef, pork, fish, and anything else
I can find, one of my dogs is no longer that thrilled with poultry except for
giblets and organs. If he is getting a variety of other meats, must he have
poultry? What was the verdict on chitterlings? OK or not.

So far, fingers crossed, everything seems to be agreeing with my dogs.

Thanks all for bearing with me during these times of transition from kibble
that I am making far more difficult than they need to be. :o)

Regards,
Carla

**************************************
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Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Last Question, Promise-For Today
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:38 pm ((PDT))

Maiakitas@... wrote:
one of my dogs is no longer that thrilled with poultry except for
> giblets and organs. If he is getting a variety of other meats, must
he have
> poultry?
*****
Chicken is available, generally afforable, generally easily digested
and the bones of course are soft. Beyond that, chicken is not magic
and there are plenty of other meats to use. Who knows? Perhaps after
a hiatus he'll like chicken again.

What was the verdict on chitterlings? OK or not.
*****
Not worth it, IMO.
Chris

Messages in this topic (2)
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2a. Re: Day # 2....still vomiting!
Posted by: "chandler_baby" chandler_baby@yahoo.com chandler_baby
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:49 pm ((PDT))

Jeff, I'm so sorry you are minus one tonight. Hope your Sassy girl
will be with you again soon.

I found this interesting because my vet when I first started raw told
me my dogs would get TOO much calcium. Good side of it, I have him a
believer now. He isn't feeding raw himself yet but he is moving in
that direction. he is doing a home prepared meal for his fur faces and
has read some books on raw feeding.

Raw diet with American meat is better than corn & by-products in bags.

Best of luck

Roxane
NE Iowa

Messages in this topic (16)
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2b. Re: Day # 2....still vomiting!
Posted by: "Cindy Marabito" doggirl1@earthlink.net rowdycowgirl50
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:03 pm ((PDT))

I would like to add something to the comment about grass fed being a
marketing ploy. I try to buy all of my sources through a co-op that
are guaranteed to be cage free and humanely treated. I drive pretty
far to try and get products that do not come from a factory farm
situation. I think that is important to point out. Whoever has seen
the movie "Peaceable Kingdom" will be able to understand this
decision and also have a better idea of where some of the diseases
mentioned are procured. Cindy Marabito

Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________

2c. Re: Day # 2....still vomiting!
Posted by: "pet.wellness" pet.wellness@yahoo.com pet.wellness
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:26 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Cindy Marabito <doggirl1@...> wrote:
>
> I would like to add something to the comment about grass fed being a
> marketing ploy. I try to buy all of my sources through a co-op that
> are guaranteed to be cage free and humanely treated. I drive pretty
> far to try and get products that do not come from a factory farm

I think we're lucky to be in the midst of so much pasture in Austin.
Most everything is within a couple hours.

That said, I wish we'd hear from Jeff an update on his Sassy.
Pamela

Messages in this topic (16)
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3a. Comprehensive exam at Vet office
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:50 pm ((PDT))

Hi,for the first time after switching my dog's diet,she goes to comprehensive exam on next Monday;30th.

I believe they test heartwarm,lhyme,fecal test,blood test etc,but kibble fed dog result and raw fed dog result comes slightly different in some exams? Do I expect some different result than last time?

Since the lady said I can feed and give water,so,before drop off at vet office,I will feed normal raw food.

I was curious about this because the touch of the poo before/after switching the diet is different so,maybe,when fecal test,they maybe find something strange not seeing in kibble fed dogs?I am not sure..

If there were something that for rawfed dog the result is normal but for vet who are getting used to seeing kibble fed dogs' ,if it looked strange and then,if he try to treat whatever was off ,it will be a problems so,I like to know about it.

They wanted to do teeth cleaning when we drop off palette but I said no to that. I really don't need that one even though the cleaning is covered under the pet wellness plan..

I am little bit nervous because this is first exam after the switch ...

thank you

yassy

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Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: Comprehensive exam at Vet office
Posted by: "Michelle LaFay" pawsitivelycaring@gmail.com mblafay
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:23 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: REMEMBER TO TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

Is there a reason for doing all these tests? If this is just a yearly or
however long checkup I wouldn't bother personally. You surely couldn't PAY
me to "drop off" either. No way no how do my dogs even leave my sight during
a rare office visit, let alone leave them there. *shudder*

On 7/25/07, Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Hi,for the first time after switching my dog's diet,she goes to
> comprehensive exam on next Monday;30th.
>
> I believe they test heartwarm,lhyme,fecal test,blood test etc,but kibble
> fed dog result and raw fed dog result comes slightly different in some
> exams? Do I expect some different result than last time?
>
> Since the lady said I can feed and give water,so,before drop off at vet
> office,I will feed normal raw food.
>
> I was curious about this because the touch of the poo before/after
> switching the diet is different so,maybe,when fecal test,they maybe find
> something strange not seeing in kibble fed dogs?I am not sure..
>
> If there were something that for rawfed dog the result is normal but for
> vet who are getting used to seeing kibble fed dogs' ,if it looked strange
> and then,if he try to treat whatever was off ,it will be a problems so,I
> like to know about it.
>
> They wanted to do teeth cleaning when we drop off palette but I said no
> to that. I really don't need that one even though the cleaning is covered
> under the pet wellness plan..
>
> I am little bit nervous because this is first exam after the switch ...
>
> thank you
>
> yassy
>
>

--
Michelle LaFay
Pawsitively Caring Pet Sitting
http://www.pawsitivelycaring.com
pawsitivelycaring@gmail.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

3c. ADMIN/Re: Comprehensive exam at Vet office
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:39 pm ((PDT))

Please take this topic to RawChat. Further postings to rawfeeding
will be inexplicably misplaced. Thank you.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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________________________________________________________________________

4.1. Re: Fish
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:52 pm ((PDT))

>Also, how often can you feed fish?

Hi.I hear that 1-2 times a week is good and I feed 2 days fish meal.

I have fed perch,snappers, whiting,haddock,squid,scallop,shrimp, cod,flounder,Mahi Mahi..

and I fed shark fillet today,but since I was not sure if it ok with raw,so, I cooked it.
No salt,no pepper,just cooked.I know it is not preferable but I was not sure about ok or not to feed raw. I got fillet at 1 dollar a week ago and, decided to feed it.

She did loved it and gusto,she was looking for more. Her gutt looks like torelating very well. no gooey poo. I too like to know if raw shark is ok or not.

You also can feed canned mackaerral/sardine/salmon too.
Not in oil but in water.

Avoid pacific northwest salmon,trout,tuna though.

yassy

---------------------------------
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Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (142)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Life after chicken
Posted by: "Eve" loulou_bean@yahoo.com loulou_bean
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:52 pm ((PDT))

We have been 100% raw feeding our pekingese for 3
weeks now, and it's been chicken in the morning and
chicken at night. He's doing really well and has
learned to tear and chew like a champ. Does anyone
have a recommendation for the introduction of a 2nd
meat? We've read mixed reviews about beef. Any
advice would be great.
Also, our peke rubs his face along the bottom of
the sofa after he eats, too. After reading today's
post, it seems he's not the only one.

Eve, Dan, and Louis

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Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: Life after chicken
Posted by: "magolin0328" maggie.taylor@artlover.com magolin0328
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:25 pm ((PDT))

Pork is Diesel's favorite. Its the next cheapest meat that I can find
so he gets a lot of pork and chicken as the staples of his diet and
then whatever other random things I find cheap or on sale. Its also
pretty digestible from what I've observed when Diesel eats it. He
doesn't always do well with beef so I tend to limit it.

Maggie
Diesel, SDIT

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Eve <loulou_bean@...> wrote:
>
> We have been 100% raw feeding our pekingese for 3
> weeks now, and it's been chicken in the morning and
> chicken at night. He's doing really well and has
> learned to tear and chew like a champ. Does anyone
> have a recommendation for the introduction of a 2nd
> meat? We've read mixed reviews about beef. Any
> advice would be great.
> Also, our peke rubs his face along the bottom of
> the sofa after he eats, too. After reading today's
> post, it seems he's not the only one.
>
> Eve, Dan, and Louis

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6. Ginny and Tomo are Famous!!!
Posted by: "woofwoofgrrl" cmc4lists1@gastrounit.com woofwoofgrrl
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:52 pm ((PDT))

So I opened up my Whole Dog Journal this afternoon and started to read
the next installment in their raw feeding series.
After reading all of these complicated meal plans (some people make it
SO hard on themselves!) - I was getting concerned,
and then I saw a name I recognized - *Ginny Wilkin and her dog Tomo* -
representing the Prey Model diet. YEAH!!!!
Tomo is a very handsome boy with sweet sweet eyes and a totally kissable
muzzlepouche!!!

YEAH!!!

Christine

Messages in this topic (1)
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7a. Re: pawing at mouth after meals
Posted by: "woofwoofgrrl" cmc4lists1@gastrounit.com woofwoofgrrl
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:57 pm ((PDT))

My Border Collie does lays on the floor and rubs her face across the
carpet after eating a good meal and one of my whippets has a particular
evergreen bush that he rubs his face against after he eats. I've always
assumed it was because they are savoring their meals! Unless you can
find evidence of inflammation, pain, or irritation, I'd assume yours is
doing the same!

Dogs have many many more scent glands than taste buds, so it makes sense
to think that savoring a meal would included finding a way to release
the meal fragrances left on ones muzzles after a good meal!!

Christine

anjumdanielle wrote:
>
>
> Barb - not to gloss over any possible allergies or other problem, but
> my dog does this when he's really gotten "into" his meal. I'm pretty
> sure he's just cleaning his face. Might be the same w/ yours.
> Good luck.
> -Anjum

Messages in this topic (6)
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________________________________________________________________________

8.1. Re: turkey necks
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:25 pm ((PDT))

"betty hinson" <b_hinson@...> wrote:
>
> speaking of raw turkey necks Does anyone feed this to small breeds
like Papillons?
*****
I think that turkey necks are perfect for small breeds. I think
that's where turkey necks shine. Oh, and for cats, too.

Remember, it is not essential that bones are completely eaten. If the
meat is worked off and some of the bone is nibbled, that's lovely.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (66)
________________________________________________________________________

8.2. Re: turkey necks
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:32 pm ((PDT))

And teething puppies...don't forget teething puppies. Nothin' will
get those loose baby teeth out faster than a semi-frozen turkey neck.

On 7/25/07, costrowski75 <Chriso75@aol.com> wrote:
> "betty hinson" <b_hinson@...> wrote:
> >
> > speaking of raw turkey necks Does anyone feed this to small breeds
> like Papillons?
> *****
> I think that turkey necks are perfect for small breeds. I think
> that's where turkey necks shine. Oh, and for cats, too.
>
> Remember, it is not essential that bones are completely eaten. If the
> meat is worked off and some of the bone is nibbled, that's lovely.
> Chris O

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com

Messages in this topic (66)
________________________________________________________________________

8.3. Re: turkey necks
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:43 pm ((PDT))

"Laura Atkinson" <llatkinson@...> wrote:
>
> And teething puppies...don't forget teething puppies. Nothin' will
> get those loose baby teeth out faster than a semi-frozen turkey neck.
*****
True, but only small breed teething babies! By the time a Lab gets to
teething age, a turkey neck is just the right size for stupid eating.
In fact, my bc pup was trying to inhale them before she was anywheres
near teething.

Oh all right--I suppose a polite teething pup is doable.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (66)
________________________________________________________________________

8.4. Re: turkey necks
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:58 pm ((PDT))

I'll give you that <G> polite teething pups...and polite eating dogs
too <G>. My crew eats them regularly. But they chomp things off in
nice, non-scary pieces.

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com

Messages in this topic (66)
________________________________________________________________________

8.5. Re: turkey necks
Posted by: "michelleraia1" michelleraia1@yahoo.com michelleraia1
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:29 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.***

My 40 LB 8 month old standard poodle has been eating turkey necks since
he started on raw....about two months now....It was one of his first
RMBs and he has never had a problem with them.
>

Messages in this topic (66)
________________________________________________________________________

8.6. Re: turkey necks
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:10 pm ((PDT))

Some dogs can handle them easily, I call them the exquisitely polite
eaters. Dogs who would never DREAM of trying to swallow something
whole. Even Robin, my 5 onth old puppy, knows to hold it down with
her paws and knibble along it like an ear of corn and then chomp the
bone down. Obviously your poodle is in that class with my Siberian
Huskies.

But there are people who have monsters who masquarade as dogs and
inhale anything given to them. To these dogs, turkey necks would be
an iffy item to include on the menu.

On 7/25/07, michelleraia1 <michelleraia1@yahoo.com> wrote:
> ***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.***
>
>
> My 40 LB 8 month old standard poodle has been eating turkey necks since
> he started on raw....about two months now....It was one of his first
> RMBs and he has never had a problem with them.
> >

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com

Messages in this topic (66)
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________________________________________________________________________

9a. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Won't Eat Frozen Either
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:31 pm ((PDT))

Maiakitas@... wrote:
>> I'm sending my animals to the "Chris O Camp of Rawfeeding." I'm
packing their
> duffel bags, oops Akitas, don't carry duffel bags, they carry
sachels, and
> they should be there on the 9:00 train. :o)
*****
<snicker>
I have a friend who sends me her dogs when they need to lose weight.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (15)
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10a. help for IBS
Posted by: "lhmcmaken" lhmcmaken@yahoo.com lhmcmaken
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:28 pm ((PDT))

Hello. I have two great Danes. Both have been on the best kibble and
now on canned. My male has had skin issues his whole life, and now on
canned food he is almost 100 percent better. I feed him a chicken
back 3 times a week, but if I feed more, he eats grass. He is 7 ½.
My female is a rescue kennel bitch who was in the vets office every
other month since the alpha bitch kept attacking her. She has been
with us half her life now and is 8 years old. Her problem is diarrhea
that starts for no reason I can figure out, and can continue for more
then a week. Very liquid and horrid. I have cleaned up her messes
more than 100 times now and just can not handle it any more. So we
are keeping them outside until we can figure it out. I have given her
different human anti diarrhea pills and that has helped sometimes. I
have given her probiotic, yogurt, restricted her food intake,
switched from canned back to kibble, added psyllium husks and slippery
elm bark capsules. But I do not know the dosage to use for the
psyllium (am doing ½ teaspoon) or for the SEB. Once I over dosed her
and she got constipated. I would love to go raw for both dogs but
with her diarreaha I am just afraid to. In the reading of the posts
to this group, it seems upset stomach and bowels is commen. Sorry for
this long post but I am confused about what to do, and very sad that
both dogs can no longer be housedogs. She stresses and
hyperventilates before walks and dinner and I do not know how to stop
that behavior. She is very happy. He is very happy. And both are
exceptionally healthy except for the diarrhea. she is 135 pounds.
Thanks for any thoughts. take care, lynda

Messages in this topic (2)
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10b. Re: help for IBS
Posted by: "mandarini_gg" amanda.gasparini@gmail.com mandarini_gg
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:10 pm ((PDT))

My Dane had major stomach issues before I adopted her. She couldn't
hold food down, had explosive diarrhea, and weighed 65 pounds. Her
foster family switched her to raw, and that cured those problems 100%.
They put her back on kibble for adoptability purposes, but I switched
her back to raw about 3 months ago, and everything has gone super so far.

The vets that saw Lola were pretty sure she has Irritable Bowel
Disease. Have you taken her in to get her checked out to make sure
everything is ok?

I really, really think you should give raw a whirl. it can only HELP
not hurt. But go SLOW when you start out. Because of Lola's tummy
issues, I had her on skinless chicken for about 3 weeks, then started
leaving the skin on for a couple weeks. I very gradually added a
little pork into her diet, and now she's eating a much larger variety
of meats.

Whatever kibble or canned foods you are giving your girl contains
stuff that her tummy doesn't want to deal with, so it just shoots it
out the other end. That's not the case with raw.

I'd hate to think the ol' girl had to spend her golden years outside,
away from the people she loves, just because she's not eating the
right food....

Mandi

Her problem is diarrhea
> that starts for no reason I can figure out, and can continue for more
> then a week. Very liquid and horrid. I have cleaned up her messes
> more than 100 times now and just can not handle it any more. So we
> are keeping them outside until we can figure it out.

Messages in this topic (2)
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11a. Re: Digest Number 11840
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:31 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 7/25/2007 2:32:52 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
_Maiakitas@aol.com _ (mailto:Maiakitas@aol.com ) writes:

the original question was regarding a freshness issue. My dogs won't touch
anything not fresh, (they were missing meals, which I had no problem with, but
I realized it was only when the meat was
not really fresh, just like cats) and I have been throwing out lots of meat,

****
Actually, my cats will eat meat that isn't really fresh, and I only have
cats, so this isn't personal experience--but from everything I've read here, if
they don't want the meat you give them, stick it back in the refrigerator and
offer it again tomorrow. It isn't going to get rank enough to actually do
harm before they get hungry enough to eat it, and it probably won't take a lot
of this sort of experience before they will simply eat what is given and be
grateful for it.

Tonight I fed the left overs of some beef tongue that had been put down in
the frig to thaw on Sunday night--just put it in with some bony stuff tonight,
and it was cheerfully inhaled. The chief inhaler threw his up, then ate it
again. This is an old guy who has gone from growling and snarling defensively
over his rawfood 4 months ago to singing loudly to me and arching against me
as he eats, BTW. And the little girl cat, who started out singing with her
meals, is at this moment snarling apparently AT a baby back rib she is trying
hard to demolish, although it took her maybe 10 minutes to finish talking to
me and walking around the thing and BEGGING for something easier to eat!

Sometimes I think I hang out on this board more than the rawcat board
because my cats are more like dogs!

Lynda

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Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

11b. Re: Digest Number 11840
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:42 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 7/25/2007 2:32:52 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
_mdevlin@aisle10.net _ (mailto:mdevlin@aisle10.net?Subject=
Re:%20missing%20stuff%20in%20diet) writes:

Ideally it would be nice if I could obtain everything he will need for his
diet from the supermarket when we do our normal shopping? but I cant seem to
find any organs other than chicken liver. Am i just not looking hard enough,
or is it just rare for the supermarket to have anything more, and that I
really need to go to an ethnic market or a butcher?

****
I'm in a pretty good sized town, and chicken or beef liver is all I've found
in the standard grocery. I did find beef kidney in the two specialty food
places I've found in town. I've been in 4 ethnic groceries and a Wal-Mart where
a lot of Hispanics shop without finding it. If you have any farmers' markets,
try there. My cats are eating beef heart and rabbit scored from a farmers'
market...

Lynda

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Messages in this topic (2)
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12. Duck? How rich?
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:41 pm ((PDT))

My lab has been eating turkey, mostly. She's OK with chicken and pork maybe once a week, but if I feed more of either to her she tends to have reactions to it. I'm contemplating trying duck.....do I need to go slow with this protein? When we first started raw, I got too ambitious and threw lamb at her too soon. The poor dog paid for my mistake for three days. I still have all of that frozen lamb but would like to know where duck falls into the raw feeding mix. Is it considered too rich for a dog who is doing well on turkey and has exposure to a few other proteins?

Thanks in advance!

Sonja

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Messages in this topic (1)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11841

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1.1. Re: recreational bones
From: Denise Strother

2a. Re: I second the request for a Sample Meal Plan!
From: mwood8402
2b. Re: I second the request for a Sample Meal Plan!
From: costrowski75

3a. Re: A nervous newbie with some specific challenges
From: mwood8402

4a. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Won't Eat Frozen Either
From: mlodge
4b. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Won't Eat Frozen Either
From: costrowski75
4c. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Won't Eat Frozen Either
From: costrowski75
4d. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Won't Eat Frozen Either
From: Shella Mansell
4e. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Won't Eat Frozen Either
From: Maiakitas@aol.com

5a. Re: missing stuff in diet
From: Sandee Lee
5b. Re: missing stuff in diet
From: mwood8402
5c. Re: missing stuff in diet
From: Pam Vojtas
5d. Re: missing stuff in diet
From: Morledzep@aol.com
5e. Re: missing stuff in diet
From: Morledzep@aol.com
5f. Re: missing stuff in diet
From: Morledzep@aol.com

6.1. Re: Intro
From: Denise Strother
6.2. Re: Intro
From: Michele Anderson

7a. Re: pawing at mouth after meals
From: Laurie Swanson
7b. Re: pawing at mouth after meals
From: carnesbill

8a. Re: Day # 2....still vomiting!
From: carnesbill
8b. Re: Day # 2....still vomiting!
From: costrowski75

9a. Re: training treats
From: Michael Moore

10a. Re: Mixing meats, etc.
From: carnesbill

11.1. Re: turkey necks
From: betty hinson

12.1. Re: Fish
From: Morledzep@aol.com

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1.1. Re: recreational bones
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:34 am ((PDT))

Chris, what kind of meal (meat-wise) would this be? How long do you
let the dog eat for? Surely not the 15-20 minutes that some here
recommend? I'm curious because I would love to feed my dog
something like that, that is so engrossing it takes a day to
recuperate!
> Nathalie

Not Chris here, but she is talking about things like heads, pork
shoulders, whole lamb or beef necks, etc. Things that because of
size and/or shape take quite some time to eat. My Pit loves lamb or
goat heads and these take some figuring out. Where do I start, what
do I do now, how do I get that piece out of there? These are the
kind of thoughts a dog that's engrossed in it's meal would ask. The
15 of 20 minute thing is how long you give a dog to start eating
something. Then you pick it up and offer it the next day. I have a
3lb Chihuahua with a pretty severe overbite, it takes him 20 to 30
minutes to eat his fill of a whole pork shoulder roast. It takes the
Pit less than that, unless she is down to the actual shoulder joint,
then working on the bone adds some time. The amount of time it takes
a dog to eat will vary according to the size and dentitia of the dog
and the size an shape of the meal. Denise

Messages in this topic (36)
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2a. Re: I second the request for a Sample Meal Plan!
Posted by: "mwood8402" mwood8402@hotmail.com mwood8402
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:36 am ((PDT))

Chris gave you great advice of course. I just want to add that I too
had a desire for a "sample meal plan" when I was getting started. Now
I know that no such thing exists. Feeding raw gives you the freedom to
tailor the diet to your individual dog. That's what makes it so great
and at the same time so scary at first. We are used to giving our dogs
X amount of "balanced" kibble every day, so the freedom that raw
provides can be shocking. My advice is to just dive in and start
feeding as Chris said. For me, after the first meal it all made sense
and I was able to relax a bit. Though I still measure out portions, I
just can't get over that. ;-)

Good luck!
-Melissa W

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Pam Vojtas" <pam.vojtas@...> wrote:
>
> Ok, I'm new too and can certainly sympathize with the desire for a
simple sample meal plan.
>

Messages in this topic (11)
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2b. Re: I second the request for a Sample Meal Plan!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:43 pm ((PDT))

"Pam Vojtas" <pam.vojtas@...> wrote:
> 1) So I'll use up the already-purchased chicken necks and not
> repeat that purchasing mistake again. But do I have to toss the
ground
> stuff? (i.e. is it inherently bad, or just 'not as good'? )
*****
Feed through your inventory and don't restock. Ground food as part
of a larger body part variety is okay. It's just not optimal.

> 2) What isn't 'edible' bone?
*****
Silly you! Bone that is not eaten is not edible. Varies by dog--so
what else is new? A lamb shank is probably edible by medium size
dogs and up; smaller dogs may be satisfied with nibbling the ends
and the joint Pork bones are almost all of them edible to some
degree. Pork arm or blade roasts offer different bones but both
versions are edible. Theoretically. I've no doubt that pork offers
even the tiniest dog an edible bone.

Is the definition of non-edible: 'if they
> don't attempt to eat it, its not edible'?
*****
No, I'd say if they CAN'T eat it, it's not edible. Dogs often
attempt to eat inedible bones--this is often when tooth damage
happens.

3) So no rec bones at all? A marrow bone (note: I didn't bake so
long as
> to melt the marrow) would keep my boys busy for hours and hours -
great
> for nights when I'm out or when one or the other is off for
training.
*****
Yes, that's my story and I't sticking to it. However, I do
sometimes make exceptions with pups that still wear their baby
teeth. Once the permanent teeth come in though, I don't offer rec
bones. Femurs, with or without intact marrow, really are tooth
breakers. I have a friend who roasts her dog's chew bones. Why do
you guys do that? Honestly, I don't get the cooking part.

Some people give their dogs knuckle bones on the assumption they are
less dangerous. As with everything raw, you get to choose.

So
> do I stick with chewies like their bully sticks - also popular,
but at
> $3 a pop, pretty expensive.
*****
I dole out cow feet, they're as close to "rec" as I get because for
my dogs they are mostly edible. A good workout generally takes the
foot down to a section of bare cannon bone; that's when the ride is
over.

> Oh and just a couple comments, lest you think I'm not a
responsible dog
> owner :-)
*****
How irresponsible can you be--you're here!

Its just I don't want to risk injury and so we have
> been 'cutting back', adding more low-impact exercise in addition to
> training (longer and additional walks adding some hills (well, golf
> course greens)) and taking away any possibility that he scarfs up
a bowl
> of Fancy Feast. Its working, and yes, I am being patient.
*****
That, as they say about the hokey-pokey, is what it's all about.
Full lifestyle change, over time. A chubby dog doesn't just risk
sports injury, it risks weakened joints and heart and liver and
kidneys every day. It risks diabetes. So even if he totally flunks
out of agility, you're doing him a big favor by taking the load off.

>> 'reward BIG', give 'em a jackpot, toss a whole slab of chicken
breast,
> use high rates of reward, for big behaviours use highest regarded
> treats, etc.
*****
Yeah, I think this is more for the human's need than the dog's.
Most beginning handlers are pathologically unable to praise their
dogs. They are self-conscious and their timing sucks. That's part
of training--learning to get over oneself and start communicating
with the dog. So the beginner is taught to emote, exaggerate, be
happy for cryin' out loud.

IMO, dogs get off on quantity not quality. One big hunk of chicken
breast is less gratifying than four cubes cut from the same hunk,
fed one after another after another like a busted slot machine.
Compare "CLUNK" to "clinkclinkclinkclinkclink....clinkclink".

Tossing that hunk of chicken gets the human to interact instead of
standing there like a tree. The human honestly, openly reacting
probably is a greater value to the dog than the food.

Anyway, people have already nailed the advice here--small bits of
whatever turns the dog on.

Any suggestions on how to
> incorporate raw foods as training treats, though?
*****
I mostly don't worry. My only concern is that I can stash the treat
in my mouth for obedience work; for other sports I hardly use
anything and I don't do agility so I don't have to be concerned with
its specific needs. For obedience I use roasted beef heart.
Chris O
(Oh, and yeah, start working on those kitties.)

Messages in this topic (11)
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3a. Re: A nervous newbie with some specific challenges
Posted by: "mwood8402" mwood8402@hotmail.com mwood8402
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:37 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jbronwen" <bronwenjones@...>
wrote:
I've started raw by offering pieces of
> chicken breast (the grissly end), pieces of chicken back and pieces
> of turkey neck. He does NOT chew them. He just scarfs them whole.
*********
You need to feed bigger hunks. Buy a whole chicken, chop it into
quarters or halves and serve it that way. I think you can agree that
there is no way for him to swallow a quarter of a chicken without
some chewing. :-) Even without perfect teeth, I think you will be
surprised at how much he can handle. Let him eat some of it then
pick it up and put in back in the refrigerator until the next meal.

> Second specific challenge Satchel has: I have to feed him several
> times per day, esp. breaking up evening meal into two or he wakes at
> 5 am vomitting bile from 'sour stomach'.
*********
Start reducing the number of meals and don't feed him at the same
times every day. If he throws up some bile, that is normal. But it
will go away once he learns not to expect food at certain times.

> I'm also concerned about the cost. I did try a commercial product
> for a few weeks but at $4/lb I can't afford that. What are my best
> options, given his chewing issues?
*********
Don't bother with commercial stuff. Let him try real food. Chicken
bones are soft, so try those first. If he can't handle them, you can
break them up for him with a hammer, but don't cut up his food for
him. Even with only a few teeth he should be able to tear off hunks
of any meat.

>I feel like I'm failing before I've even begun!
**********
You are doing fine! I hope my advice helped you.

-Melissa W

Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Won't Eat Frozen Either
Posted by: "mlodge" mmlodge@att.net mlodge
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:38 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
...
>
> Certainly it's easiest to just not do it.
>
> What I fail to understand is why the meal simply cannot be left to
> defrost on the counter? Why must the meat--if it cannot be fed frozen--
> be fed at a specific time? Why can't mealtime wait until the meat is
> defrosted? Meal TIME should be when the meal arrives, not when the
> clock says so.
> Chris O
>

I agree with you, but then again, that was not the poster's question.

Melissa

Messages in this topic (14)
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4b. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Won't Eat Frozen Either
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:25 pm ((PDT))

Maiakitas@... wrote:
>
> Hi Chris,
>
> Thanks for the response, but actually the original question was
regarding a
> freshness issue. My dogs won't touch anything not fresh,
*****
Oh right, duh.
Sorry.

Have you been able to figure out why they are so stubborn?

I realized it was only when the meat was
> not really fresh, just like cats)
*****
I have only fed raw to two cats, one switched as an adult, the other
at 3 months. Both, from day one, were not only willing to eat "old"
food but also thrilled to. Is this "fresh or death" dichotomy a cat
thing that my cats haven't heard about, or is it a learned behavior
I somehow managed to not teach?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (14)
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4c. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Won't Eat Frozen Either
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:27 pm ((PDT))

"mlodge" <mmlodge@...> wrote:
>> I agree with you, but then again, that was not the poster's
question.
*****
Yeah, duh hey?
Brain flatulence for sure.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (14)
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4d. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Won't Eat Frozen Either
Posted by: "Shella Mansell" shellabella76@sbcglobal.net shellaroo76
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:30 pm ((PDT))

We thaw on the counter. I even set the timer on the microwave to remember it is out. That is a good use for the microwave for RAW feeding in my opinion. My very large Chessy eats partial frozen turkey neck, chicken backs, ect. Otherwise she will swallow almost whole.

Shella
Schnauzer and Chessy

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (14)
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4e. Re: Newbie With A Feeding Dilemma -Won't Eat Frozen Either
Posted by: "Maiakitas@aol.com" Maiakitas@aol.com maiakitas
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:45 pm ((PDT))

Chris,

I'm not really sure about the cat and fresh thingy, it is just that I have
heard it mentioned frequently on the raw cat list that many cats will only eat
fresh meat. Not all, but many.

I'm sending my animals to the "Chris O Camp of Rawfeeding." I'm packing their
duffel bags, oops Akitas, don't carry duffel bags, they carry sachels, and
they should be there on the 9:00 train. :o)

Regards,
Carla

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Messages in this topic (14)
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5a. Re: missing stuff in diet
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:39 am ((PDT))

No, he gets plenty of bone in his chicken meals. You can (and should) feed
a lot of meaty meals without bone.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Mike Devlin" <mdevlin@aisle10.net>
> I think part of my confusion is that, say I started feeding him beef,
since
> the beef bones are too hard, wouldn't I need to give him something else so
> that he gets his share of bone? like if I gave him a nice meaty cut of
beef,
> let him tear everything off the bone, then take the bone away. Should I
> maybe supplement these meals with like a chicken theigh?

Messages in this topic (13)
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5b. Re: missing stuff in diet
Posted by: "mwood8402" mwood8402@hotmail.com mwood8402
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:39 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Devlin" <mdevlin@...> wrote:
> Or am i maybe overthinking this, and that all I need to do is not
worry
> about it on the days that I feed beef? and just have to have some
days that
> have more edible bone?
*********
Yes and yes.

>Am i just not looking hard enough,
> or is it just rare for the supermarket to have anything more, and
that I
> really need to go to an ethnic market or a butcher?
***********
I think it really depends on the supermarket. Some have more variety
than others. It seems to me that more "low end" supermarkets carry a
larger variety of parts.

-Melissa W

Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________

5c. Re: missing stuff in diet
Posted by: "Pam Vojtas" pam.vojtas@datacore.com pvojtas
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:14 pm ((PDT))

Interesting note - I have been cruising the meat section of my big chain
grocery store and started noticing a lot more 'parts' - beef hearts,
pig's feet, tripe, etc. and mentioned it to the meat manager. He said he
was ordering them because he had several requests from dog owners! So
maybe asking your local grocery meat manager might work.

Pam (just starting out too)

________________________________

From: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com [mailto:rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Mike Devlin

Ideally it would be nice if I could obtain everything he will need for
his
diet from the supermarket when we do our normal shopping? but I cant
seem to
find any organs other than chicken liver. Am i just not looking hard
enough,
or is it just rare for the supermarket to have anything more, and that I
really need to go to an ethnic market or a butcher?

- Mike

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________

5d. Re: missing stuff in diet
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:17 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 7/25/2007 10:29:23 AM Pacific Standard Time,
mdevlin@aisle10.net writes:

Or am i maybe overthinking this, and that all I need to do is not worry
about it on the days that I feed beef? and just have to have some days that
have more edible bone?

Mike.. you answered your own question.. see, it's really not hard to feed
raw..

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________

5e. Re: missing stuff in diet
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:29 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 7/25/2007 10:29:23 AM Pacific Standard Time,
mdevlin@aisle10.net writes:

Am i just not looking hard enough,
or is it just rare for the supermarket to have anything more, and that I
really need to go to an ethnic market or a butcher?

Mike,

there really are other grocery stores that have more interesting body parts,
mainstream grocery stores are successful because they only stock the things
that 'MOST' people want to buy. Specialty items are usually only found at
specialty kinda stores.

If you want a good variety of organ meats then ethnic grocery stores are the
way to go if you can't find a meat buying group or co-op in your area.

Catherine R.

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Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________

5f. Re: missing stuff in diet
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:37 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 7/25/2007 10:39:48 AM Pacific Standard Time,
mwood8402@hotmail.com writes:

I think it really depends on the supermarket. Some have more variety
than others. It seems to me that more "low end" supermarkets carry a
larger variety of parts.

Melissa,

not all of us are upper crusty rich folks that only shop at "high end"
groceries.. and yes.. i'm offended.

Catherine R.

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6.1. Re: Intro
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:39 am ((PDT))

Is there anything I might need to know specifically for feeding small
dog?
Michele

Hi Michele,
I feed 3 dogs. They weigh 3lbs, 5lbs and 45lbs. The smaller ones eat
the same things as the bigger one. Just feed her, she will let you
know what bones she can eat and what she can't. This may change as she
gets older and stronger. Make sure her food isn't too cold too! Some
small dogs can have their body temp lowered by to much cold food.
Denise

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6.2. Re: Intro
Posted by: "Michele Anderson" crunchymommy@gmail.com psycho_loggie
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:31 pm ((PDT))

Thanks. Good to know about cold food.

Michele

On 7/25/07, Denise Strother <denisestrother@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Make sure her food isn't too cold too! Some
> small dogs can have their body temp lowered by to much cold food.
> Denise
>
>

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7a. Re: pawing at mouth after meals
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:17 pm ((PDT))

My dog rubs his snout along the bottom of our bed or the carpet
(lovely, I know...) after most meals. I believe he's cleaning his face
as well. Hopefully that's it for yours, too. Let us know what you
think or how it resolves.

Laurie

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7b. Re: pawing at mouth after meals
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:18 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, outcats4@... wrote:
>
> His ears are better, but now Ive noticed that after
> each meal, he paws and paws at his snout.

Barb,
If you think he is pawing at an irritation and not just cleaning his
snout, run your finger along the roof of his mouth and make sure
there is not a bone stuck up there between teeth on the opposite
sides of his mouth. You might also run your finger along the gum
line all around his mouth to see if you feel anything odd.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

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8a. Re: Day # 2....still vomiting!
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:18 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cresco299" <gentry.jeffrey@...>
wrote:
>
> But if you
> really need to feed raw stick to only, the grass fed, organically
> grown animals and stay away from chicken! DO NOT TRUST THE
> COMMERCIALLY GROWN ANIMALS.
>
> Is this guy crazy or is there in merit to what he's saying?
>
He's definately loony. "Grass fed" and "organic" are nothing more
than marketing gimicks to charge more money for the same product.
Hundreds of millions of meals are served each day with regular stuff
and we are all fine. :) :) :) If it's OK for humans, It's ok for
the dogs. Don't worry about it. Feed a variety of animal parts
from a vareity of animals and you will be ok.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

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8b. Re: Day # 2....still vomiting!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:00 pm ((PDT))

"carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
> He's definately loony. "Grass fed" and "organic" are nothing more
> than marketing gimicks to charge more money for the same product.
*****
No, actually they are not. They represent agricultural alternatives
to corporate farms. While "organic" may not offer as much as its
proponents would have us believe, grassfed/finished and fully pastured
livestock do present a notably different product. In either case
though, buying the product and not the hype is paramount. An educated
consumer can indeed get her money's worth.

It is short-sighted to dismiss out of hand the alternatives that are
available, not only for ourselves but our pets. That you choose to
feed the "regular stuff" simply frees up more of the "good stuff" for
thos who choose otherwise. You are not necessarily making a poor
choice; neither are they.
Chris O

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9a. Re: training treats
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:19 pm ((PDT))

>>So here I was following instructions, with string cheese, deli chicken
breast and roast beef, hotdogs, liver chunks, etc and turning my little
athlete into a sausage! I have learned the error of my ways.... I've
gone more natural, used miniscule treats, etc. Any suggestions on how to
incorporate raw foods as training treats, though? <<

Pam -- training treats are such a teeny, tiny amount (done properly -- LOL) of your dog's diet as to warrant not much, if any, thought or change in what you're doing. I train in agility, rally, formal obedience, and dabble in tracking and herding from time to time. I use whatever I grab as treats -- string cheese, garlic hotdogs, commercial treats, leftover "whatever" meat, cooked beef heart. IOW, I don't worry about treats; but I do, as you found out, use very small bits of "whatever" treat I'm employing. I don't worry about "raw" in my treats, and it works fine for us.

-- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

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10a. Re: Mixing meats, etc.
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:32 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "vadaski16" <vadaski16@...> wrote:
>
> but here's my main concern (for now): is it okay to mix two kinds
of
> meat (i.e. chicken + pork) in one meal?

It's perfectly Ok, but I would suggest you wait until your dog has
had several meals of each of the meats by themselves to help
eliminate digestive problems.

> and would you recommend adding veggie mush to his food every once
> in a while?

NO

> oh and what about fish? with the bone, it's still an RMB right? so
> should i still mix it with muscle meat?

Fish is fine. Yes, feed it with bone. No need to mix it with
anything if it is large enough to make a meal.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

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11.1. Re: turkey necks
Posted by: "betty hinson" b_hinson@sbcglobal.net paps4jesus
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:32 pm ((PDT))

speaking of raw turkey necks Does anyone feed this to small breeds like Papillons?
Betty Hinson
b_hinson@sbcglobal.net
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me Phil 4:13

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12.1. Re: Fish
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:15 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 7/25/2007 8:22:22 AM Pacific Standard Time,
michelleraia1@yahoo.com writes:

We are planning a deep sea fishing trip in the Gulf.....What Gulf fish
is appropriate to feed? Specifically, are king fish and shark okay.
Also, how often can you feed fish?

***any fish is just fine.. it's all protien variety. Most of the good Omega
3 fish are cold/deep water fish. So most anything that you're going to catch
in the gulf are probably not going to be those type of fish.

But, we all like a variety of meats for our wolves in dog clothing.. i
certainly wouldn't replace the normal diet with fish, but adding fish once or twice
a month maybe a little more is just hunky dory.

Remember that most fish is contaminated in some way, there are websites to
look up the specific type of fish to give you an idea of what that type of fish
may be contaminated with.. ChrisO would have the links.. or you can search the
archives, i don't have them. Fish is good variety, but because of the
possibility of contamination it shouldn't have a major role in a dog's diet.

Catherine R.

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