Feed Pets Raw Food: Oct 2, 2007

Tuesday, October 2, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12110

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: scared newbie
From: Bumble1994@aol.com

2a. Is there a site that ships whole frozen rabbits and the like?
From: suburbancow
2b. Re: Is there a site that ships whole frozen rabbits and the like?
From: Yasuko herron
2c. Re: Is there a site that ships whole frozen rabbits and the like?
From: Michelle Grabert
2d. Re: Is there a site that ships whole frozen rabbits and the like?
From: Giselle

3a. Re: Demodicosis mange and RAW
From: Denise Strother

4a. New Baby
From: Dcaloosa
4b. Re: New Baby
From: Sandee Lee

5a. Re: Chewing bones
From: krystal_brr

6a. Re: mange...
From: Denise Strother
6b. Re: mange...
From: Michelle Grabert
6c. Re: mange...
From: Sandee Lee

7a. Re: Oil
From: Giselle
7b. Re: Oil
From: Bumble1994@aol.com

8a. Re: Garlic - Yes or No
From: John and Jeni Blackmon

9.1. Re: Shiner doing better! (was Re: 911-PLEASE HELP)
From: ginny wilken
9.2. Re: Shiner doing better! (was Re: 911-PLEASE HELP)
From: Doguefan@aol.com

10a. Re: [raw feeding] How expired is expired
From: Shannon Hully

11a. Maggots
From: Kevin Brown
11b. Re: Maggots
From: Giselle

12a. Re: Should a Pit Bull be fed a Raw Diet?
From: Denise Strother

13a. Re: Diseases in deer/rabbit meat?
From: carnesbill

14.1. Re: Salmon Oil
From: carnesbill

15a. Re: Day 3 raw feeding;
From: carnesbill

16a. Re: Feeding Amounts
From: Loraine Jesse

Messages
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1a. Re: scared newbie
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 6:05 pm ((PDT))

I'm glad you said that, as I hadn't noticed it being said about a cat,
before. One of my cats does this from time to time and I have just assumed that if
dogs do it for that reason, cats probably do, too. :) It has certainly never
interfered with his eagerness to eat when I do get there with breakfast!

Lynda

In a message dated 10/2/2007 6:01:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
"sarahfalkner" writes:

Once or twice Ivan vomited some clear yellowish stomach acid in the morning
when he
was very ready for breakfast but breakfast wasn't ready for him, but to no
ill effect

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (16)
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2a. Is there a site that ships whole frozen rabbits and the like?
Posted by: "suburbancow" lizzieodonnell@houston.rr.com suburbancow
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 6:05 pm ((PDT))

Someone just mentioned a website that supplies feeder mice. It was
half of what I am paying for my snake's current feeders, but I was
wondering if there was a similar website that sells something like
whole frozen rabbits, or other animals that are not chicken beef or
pork. Am I just not looking hard enough in the phone book? I visited
about ten different meat markets and they all claim to not have any
scraps or chicken backs or any things like that. I'm just looking for
variety for my dog.

-Elizabeth O.

Messages in this topic (4)
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2b. Re: Is there a site that ships whole frozen rabbits and the like?
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 6:22 pm ((PDT))

.>if there was a similar website that sells something likewhole frozen rabbits, or other >animals that are not chicken beef or pork.

Hi,Elizabeth. If you close to PA, then,you can have wide choice in Hare today Gone tomorrow site.They carry Beef,Pork,Pheasant,Mutton,tripe,chicken,Goat...

yassy

---------------------------------
Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.

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Messages in this topic (4)
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2c. Re: Is there a site that ships whole frozen rabbits and the like?
Posted by: "Michelle Grabert" chalienme@yahoo.com chalienme
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 6:25 pm ((PDT))

Hi, I am in Pa. Can you give me the link to this site? thanks, michelle

Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com> wrote: .>if there was a similar website that sells something likewhole frozen rabbits, or other >animals that are not chicken beef or pork.

Hi,Elizabeth. If you close to PA, then,you can have wide choice in Hare today Gone tomorrow site.They carry Beef,Pork,Pheasant,Mutton,tripe,chicken,Goat...

yassy

---------------------------------
Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

---------------------------------
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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2d. Re: Is there a site that ships whole frozen rabbits and the like?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 7:03 pm ((PDT))

The ones I know of are;
http://www.prey4pets.com/servlet/Categories?category=Rabbit+-+Whole+Prey
http://tinyurl.com/356mbz
http://www.rodentpro.com/catalog.asp?prod=4&label=frozen_rabbits
http://www.hare-today.com/index.php?cPath=23
TC
Giselle

> Someone just mentioned a website that supplies feeder mice. It was
> half of what I am paying for my snake's current feeders, but I was
> wondering if there was a similar website that sells something like
> whole frozen rabbits, or other animals that are not chicken beef or
> pork. Am I just not looking hard enough in the phone book? I visited
> about ten different meat markets and they all claim to not have any
> scraps or chicken backs or any things like that. I'm just looking for
> variety for my dog.
>
> -Elizabeth O.
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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3a. Re: Demodicosis mange and RAW
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 6:07 pm ((PDT))

Sandee is dead right. She will heal way faster on raw than without it.
I foster dogs with demodex and I don't dip them or give antibiotics, I
just put them on raw. The poisons and antibiotics will not help her
immune system. Denise

Start her on raw immediately. No better way to build up/support the
immune system then by feeding an appropriate diet! :)
Sandee & the Dane Gang

I am probably going to be fostering(adopting) a dog that has
demodicosis mange. Is it a good or bad idea to go ahead and start her
on the raw diet? Should I wait until she is completly healed first?

Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. New Baby
Posted by: "Dcaloosa" Dcaloosa@aol.com Dcaloosa
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 6:14 pm ((PDT))

MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS!!!

New rottie pup from my friend/vet/breeder. She is veery open minded re}
raw. She insists on a high protein and calcium diet for the first 6
mos. What do you suggest? I want this pupopy to start off on RAW!

Messages in this topic (2)
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4b. Re: New Baby
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 6:25 pm ((PDT))

A prey model raw diet has the perfect amount of protein, calcium and all
other nutrients necessary for proper growth of a large breed (or any) puppy.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Dcaloosa" <Dcaloosa@aol.com>

Messages in this topic (2)
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5a. Re: Chewing bones
Posted by: "krystal_brr" rkbarr@hughes.net krystal_brr
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 6:22 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "qsgirl916" <qsgirl916@...> wrote:
>
> Now that I've got Fern attempting to eat the chicken, I'm noticing
that
> the real stumbling block seems to be chewing the larger pieces of
> chicken. It's like she doesn't know what to do with them.
>
I am by no means an expert, since I just started feeding raw a couple
of days ago. When I threw a chicken quarter down in front of my Titus
(17 mo old Ridgeback) he looked at me like "what is this and where is
my food?" I held it out to him and he took it and in a few minutes
got the idea, but was doing a lot of licking and trying to bite the
wing, but still not sure so after 5 minutes of watching him, I took
ahold of the meat and ripped it apart a little bit and encouraged him
and held it for him while he ripped at it, then he had the idea. But
it seemed like he needed me to hold it and rip it away for him,
before he got the idea that it was OK to rip at it and to eat the
whole thing. Then he did exactly that and with gusto, I didn't hold
it for long after I heard him crunching those bones. What a sound, no
wonder it cleans their teeth!
HOpe this helps

Krystal

Messages in this topic (5)
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6a. Re: mange...
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 6:25 pm ((PDT))

Demodex is not contagious to other dogs. It is an overgrowth of
mites due to a compromised immune system. Vets treat the symtom of
the problem instead of treating the probblem. The way the vets treat
demodex is to try to poison the mites. Ivermectin is the same drug
used in some heartworm meds. So, if your dog is on heartworm meds
and getting Ivermectin or being dipped in mitaban, he is getting
double dosed with poisons. How much do you figure that helps the
immune system? They often add antibiotics because of or in case of
infections of the skin due to incessant scratching. Which also
suppresses the immune system. I've had way better outcomes skipping
the poisons and antibiotics and feeding raw prey model. Classical
Homeopathy would help too. Denise

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Michelle Grabert <chalienme@...>
wrote:
this is what I can tell you from my own experience,. I had a dog
with Demo..she didn't itch and no other dogs even though kept in
with her got it. The hair and spots do take a long time to go away,
weeks and weeks,. It was treated with Ivermec orally for two weeks.
This sounds more like sarcoptic mange (scabies) which is known to
cause intence itching and spreads rapidly among dogs and humans too.
I don;t know if the treatement would be different but maybe harder
to treat and be gone>? especially with multiple dogs having it? I do
know Ivermec is suppose to knock almost anything out. But I beleive
with Scabies they may need to be on antibiotic-steroid in addition
to releive the itching. michelle

Messages in this topic (6)
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6b. Re: mange...
Posted by: "Michelle Grabert" chalienme@yahoo.com chalienme
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 6:52 pm ((PDT))

I am not arguing the raw diet.. I just happen to think Ivermec is not a bad way to go to knock this out./ Mange is a royal pain in the a## and quicker gone the better. michelle

Denise Strother <denisestrother@yahoo.com> wrote: Demodex is not contagious to other dogs. It is an overgrowth of
mites due to a compromised immune system. Vets treat the symtom of
the problem instead of treating the probblem. The way the vets treat
demodex is to try to poison the mites. Ivermectin is the same drug
used in some heartworm meds. So, if your dog is on heartworm meds
and getting Ivermectin or being dipped in mitaban, he is getting
double dosed with poisons. How much do you figure that helps the
immune system? They often add antibiotics because of or in case of
infections of the skin due to incessant scratching. Which also
suppresses the immune system. I've had way better outcomes skipping
the poisons and antibiotics and feeding raw prey model. Classical
Homeopathy would help too. Denise

---------------------------------
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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6c. Re: mange...
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 6:58 pm ((PDT))

Well, this is getting pretty far OT, but using drugs which suppress the
immune system just because it is a quick fix is never a good idea.

It's always best to build up and support the immune system with appropriate
diet, avoid toxins and end up with a healthy dog!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Michelle Grabert" <chalienme@yahoo.com>

> I am not arguing the raw diet.. I just happen to think Ivermec is not a
bad way to go to knock this out./ Mange is a royal pain in the a## and
quicker gone the better. michelle

Messages in this topic (6)
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7a. Re: Oil
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 6:40 pm ((PDT))

Salmon oil;
http://timberwolforganics.com/pet-omega-oils

http://www.icelandpure.com/salmon_oil.htm

http://www.grizzlypetproducts.com/salmon_oil/salmon_oil.html

Fish Body oil;
http://www.google.com/products?q=fish+body+oil&btnG=Search+Products&scoring=prd
http://tinyurl.com/2yowlh
TC
Giselle

> Chris O. why not Cod liver oil? Where do I find fish body oil?
> Thanks, Susan

Messages in this topic (10)
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7b. Re: Oil
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 8:24 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Alicia,

My suggestion: take the CLO yourself, and pick up some fish body oil at
Walgreens or Wal-Mart or whatever. (I may even have gotten mine at K-MART. Just
be sure it doesn't have soy in it. :)

Lynda

In a message dated 10/2/2007 9:05:48 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
"aliciamyan" writes:

should I go ahead and use
the CLO and then switch to Salmon? I assume will go through it quick
since I'm feeding two dogs, 90lb+ GSD and a 50lb lab. Or is the risk
of overdose not worth the inconvenience of returning it to the store?
Not looking forward to returning to the pet store so soon...see message

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (10)
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8a. Re: Garlic - Yes or No
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 6:52 pm ((PDT))

I give my Great Danes a Brewer's Yeast and Garlic tablet that I buy at Trader Joe's because it helps against fleas and they like them as treats. (once a day or so) I also have been a long time herbalist and believe that garlic when used correctly and in moderation can be a wonderful antioxident and somewhat of an immune builder, for anyone who uses it. This can be in a form of food, or in tablet. I would ground it up in the dogs raw food, when I mix it with other things like fish oil and molassis and sometimes a little honey too. They love it. But for the smaller dogs a little can go along ways so you have to figure your amounts accordingly. I downsize it for my pomchi, she gets one tablet and in the food, she only gets a little tiny bit, but she still gets it and loves it.
Some people are totally against garlic but I believe in it, have never had any problems with it, and I think for me, the benefits are worth it. We really don't have a flea problem and my babies don't get too sick here, knock on wood:)
And when I cook with it, all the noses are in the air around here, like, when is dinner mom?! So we love it here, but you will get some feed back I'm sure against it. So you'll have to make up your own mind on this one. Do some research, try to figure out why you want it and what you would be using it for first, then see if it is worth it to you, and see if in fact the dogs would eat it, in either the food or take it like mine do in treats, if they don't like it, that might be the deal breaker right there.
Jeni

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9.1. Re: Shiner doing better! (was Re: 911-PLEASE HELP)
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 7:48 pm ((PDT))

On Oct 2, 2007, at 11:13 AM, Doguefan@aol.com wrote:

> She has tried chunks too big before, and just did the normal vomit
> and try again.? This time I believe it was too awkward and
> frenchies has short little pallets and tracheas anyway; maybe have
> had gotten down and she could not get it up. She ended up CHOKING
> (yes, she was choking)because the stress on the soft tissue closed
> down on her wind pipe.? My Dad as an ER doc see's so many choking
> cases and was very knowledgable of exactly what happened.? He of
> course tells me I am nuts to be feeding raw...at least to such a
> little dog he adds.? He has seen the way my big dogs eat without a
> hitch.?
> It is posted on here all the time that chicken breats are a great
> way to go for little puppies.? I am so very careful with what I
> feed.? I also tried the heimlich(which I know how to do) but this
> thing was not budging which why she could not get it up herself.?
> Thank goodness her little muscles were able to push it down into
> her stomach finally, but there was so much damage done to her throat.?

I realize this was a terrifying experience, but technically this was
not choking, as long as she kept breathing. If she had been choking,
her airway would have been closed off completely, and the Heimlich
would have worked because of the pressure it puts in the airway. Do
you keep a hemostat around? These are really handy to grab stuff in
the throat. Pushing it down with a finger works well, too. When a dog
chokes, they start to pass out and all the muscles relax, and it's
pretty easy to deal with the obstruction at that point. If they're
still fighting, they're not choking, just having some trouble.

The extremes to which we breed dog shapes is the reason why some
breeds may have difficulty with certain sizes and shapes of prey.
It's kind of hard to imagine what a Frenchie would eat in the wild,
as in the wild such a dog would not last long. That said, there is
never, ever, a justification for not feeding raw, and there is always
a way to provide raw food in a way that satisfies ALL the benefits of
dental hygiene, nutritional variety, and entertainment and
stimulation. The key is to keep experimenting, and to be ready to
deal with difficulties in whatever way they present. There are quite
a few raw Frenchie feeders out there, and they speak of all the usual
sort of big chunks and roasts, bones smothered in meat, whole
chickens, etc. So it can be done, and you can do it. I suspect the
answer will be in bigger, tougher, pieces which she has to gnaw off
herself.

Carry on! You're doing fine!

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

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Messages in this topic (32)
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9.2. Re: Shiner doing better! (was Re: 911-PLEASE HELP)
Posted by: "Doguefan@aol.com" Doguefan@aol.com knoxkennels
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 8:35 pm ((PDT))

***EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

I understand the difference between she choked (limp) and choking-eyes bulgin, thrashing, making no noise..? This dogs turned totally white and shocky and then blue.? I am pretty sure she was choking.? It is also hard, when the throat of such a small dog is completly closed in on a wind pipe, and trying to get to a vet.? This was beyond terrifying, I was watching this little puppy die in my hands.? I read everything on here, and I have always seen chicken breats recomended for little puppies.?
I do plan on moving forward with the raw very cautiously

Chelsea

Messages in this topic (32)
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10a. Re: [raw feeding] How expired is expired
Posted by: "Shannon Hully" summerwolf@theherbalhotline.com bluehankw
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 8:22 pm ((PDT))

Hmm, let's try this again, I got an error message last time I tried
to respond.

I got three year old venison from Freecycle and it looks awesome! My
dog (who has been on raw for two and a half weeks) is absolutely ga-
ga over it and has had no illness to speak of from it (at either end)
since starting it a week and a half ago. Go for it!

Shannon H.

>
> Well, my freecycle ad worked - I have response from someone that has
> meat from '05 and '06 - of course I know '06 would be alright...but
> from '05??? Can dogs handle that kinda stuff?
>
> --
> Brandi
> Bartlesville, Ok
> www.obediencetrainingclubofbartlesville.com
>

Messages in this topic (7)
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11a. Maggots
Posted by: "Kevin Brown" jerseykev@aol.com noblarneyzone
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 8:23 pm ((PDT))

I was working outside today.

I brought the two little ladies out with me.

On of them unearthed a pig's foot that was buried some time ago.

I walked over and she was having a jolly old time.

I noticed a maggot, so i tossed it.

She is fine. Ate a good dinner after that. No problems.

Is there anything I should know about maggots?

Thanks.

Kevin Brown

Messages in this topic (2)
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11b. Re: Maggots
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 9:16 pm ((PDT))

That they're good protein?
http://ift.confex.com/ift/2005/techprogram/paper_31685.htm
TC
Giselle

<snip>
> Is there anything I should know about maggots?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Kevin Brown

Messages in this topic (2)
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12a. Re: Should a Pit Bull be fed a Raw Diet?
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 8:24 pm ((PDT))

'Mater of fact check out the American Temperment Test Society site,
ATTS.com maybe, or just google it. They have a section showing all of
the breeds that they've tested and how many of each they've tested. It
goes on to show how many of each breed passed the test. The statistics
might surprise many of you. Denise

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Jen S" <jennilist@...> wrote:
>
> > Tell your dad that raw is good gor Pits.
>
> And that Pits are just like any other dog. They are not more
> aggressive than any other breed. My 3 year old pittie boy has been
> rawfed for a year and a half and he's a big baby.

Messages in this topic (13)
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13a. Re: Diseases in deer/rabbit meat?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 8:27 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Shannon Hully" <summerwolf@...>
wrote:
>
> My husband's concern with feeding wildlife is the worry
> of diseases
> such as Distemper, Rabies, etc.

I'm not sure if they can be caught oraly or not either. Generally I
am not too concerned about anything that must pass through the
stomach because of the high acidity levels of the stomach juices. I
know the stomach juices kill e-coli, salmonella and other serious
bacteria. I don't know why it wouldn't kill distemper and rabies.
The greatest majority of animals that our dogs would possibly eat
don't get rabies anyway. I think racoons would be just about the
only ones. I'm not sure what animals get distemper.

My dogs have had both rabies and distemper shots so that is another
reason not to be too concerned about them. Also remember, many wild
carnivores eat other wild animals on a daily basis. I don't think
these diseases are all that prevelant among them.

Catching, killing, and eating prey animals is the natural way for
our dogs. Their bodies are designed to handle adversity. They are
well equipped for it.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (5)
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14.1. Re: Salmon Oil
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 8:29 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cr008k" <crakoczy@...> wrote:
>
> For those who don't feed salmon oil, how much fish/ what
> percentage of
> the diet is composed of fish? Is feeding whole fish a realistic
way
> of providing the same nutrients (esp w/ molly's itchiness)

Fish doesn't need to be a major part of the diet. I feed it maybe
once a week. Mostly canned salmon or mackerel, sometimes frozen
fish that has been given to me one way or another.

I don't know about how much good feeding fish will do your dog's
itchiness. It depends on the cause.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (76)
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15a. Re: Day 3 raw feeding;
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 8:30 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "alexanderdewey"
<alexanderdewey@...> wrote:
>
> Day 1. Big slimey poop - looked like passed the whole quarter
> chicken all chewed up.

I would guess it was leftover kibble.

> Day 2. Threw up most of the quarter chicken about 10
> minutes after
> she ate. Most of it looked well chewed, but there was some bone
> that hadn't been chewed up enough. She slurped everything back up
> and re-chewed the boney parts. Later in the afternoon, when she
> pooped, she made just a few small hard pieces. Late at night, she
> was looking hungry, so I gave her a drumstick.

Sounds normal. Pay no attention to "looking hungry". It can/will
be a cause of your dog getting overweight and therefore unhealthy.

> Day 3. She left the tip of the drumstick bone in a puddle of
> stomach bile. I fed her a quarter chicken a little later. Walked
> her a couple of times but again, she has only made very
> little hard
> poops. Not much volume.

Still sounds normal :)

> I've read a lot here about how feeding raw reduces the amount of
> poop, but seriously, where is all this chicken going?

It's digesting and circulating through the dogs body as nutrients.

> If I've already given her the recommended amount
> of food for the day, should I feed her again? It's REALLY
> HARD not to feed this hungry looking dog...

Buck up and understand how much harm you do a dog by overfeeding.
Also don't worry too much about "recommended" amounts. Feed her
what it takes to keep her trim and sexy but not skinny. It might be
more than you are feeding now or more probably, less than you are
feeding now. You will be changing volume from time to time.

> Other than that, just gonna stick with chicken quarters for a few
> weeks maybe throwing in an organ here or there. I consider these
> past 3 days a success, so just gonna keep taking it slow.

I would hold off on organs for a month or two. They are one thing
that can really throw a monkey wrench into the works. Sounds like
all is going well now. There is no need to rush anything.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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16a. Re: Feeding Amounts
Posted by: "Loraine Jesse" rothburg@hotmail.com loraine_jesse
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 8:31 pm ((PDT))

Super. Thank-you for sharing Tycho's menue
Loraine Jesse
www.rothburgrottweilers.com

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Messages in this topic (17)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12109

There are 26 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: [raw feeding] How expired is expired
From: Karen Swanay
1b. Re: [raw feeding] How expired is expired
From: Sandee Lee
1c. Re: [raw feeding] How expired is expired
From: Carol Dunster
1d. Re: [raw feeding] How expired is expired
From: Sandee Lee
1e. Re: [raw feeding] How expired is expired
From: Sonja

2a. Re: mange...
From: Sandee Lee
2b. Re: mange...
From: Michelle Grabert

3a. Re: Shedding on raw
From: Giselle

4a. Re: I would like to learn more about raw food !
From: Giselle

5a. Re: Chewing bones
From: girlndocs
5b. Re: Chewing bones
From: Sandee Lee

6a. Re: Dry Skin but Feeding Raw
From: Sandee Lee

7a. Re: Frustrated and cannot find any answers - I'm In The Same Boat
From: Maiakitas@aol.com
7b. Re: Frustrated and cannot find any answers - I'm In The Same Boat
From: Giselle

8a. Re: Oil
From: Sandee Lee
8b. Re: Oil
From: aliciamyan
8c. Re: Oil
From: Laura Atkinson

9a. Re: Success!
From: Shannon Hully

10a. Re: scared newbie
From: Alisha Johnson

11a. Demodicosis mange and RAW
From: trayc2244
11b. Re: Demodicosis mange and RAW
From: Sandee Lee

12a. Re: scared newbie.....now not so scared
From: Giselle

13a. Re: Plant Material {previously - Re: Adding on to Supplement Questio
From: Sandee Lee

14a. Re: Salmon oil questions and.....
From: Giselle

15a. Re: Day 3 raw feeding;
From: Giselle

16. Garlic - Yes or No
From: Roseann

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: [raw feeding] How expired is expired
Posted by: "Karen Swanay" luvbullbreeds@gmail.com kswanay1111
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 3:01 pm ((PDT))

if it's been frozen I don't see why not. You could take it and thaw some
and give it a sniff.
Karen

On 10/2/07, Brandi Bryant <bbryant573@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Well, my freecycle ad worked - I have response from someone that has
> meat from '05 and '06 - of course I know '06 would be alright...but
> from '05??? Can dogs handle that kinda stuff?
>
> --
> Brandi
> Bartlesville, Ok
> www.obediencetrainingclubofbartlesville.com
>
>

--
"Family isn't about whose blood you have. It's about who you care about."

LOI 1/26/07
PA 3/22/07
DTC 8/10/07
Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errors.

~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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1b. Re: [raw feeding] How expired is expired
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 4:14 pm ((PDT))

No problem Brandi...but if you are worried you can send it to me!! :))

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Brandi Bryant" <bbryant573@gmail.com>

> Well, my freecycle ad worked - I have response from someone that has
> meat from '05 and '06 - of course I know '06 would be alright...but
> from '05??? Can dogs handle that kinda stuff?

Messages in this topic (6)
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1c. Re: [raw feeding] How expired is expired
Posted by: "Carol Dunster" cedunster@centurytel.net carwynst
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 4:34 pm ((PDT))

On Tue, 2 Oct 2007 16:31:38 -0500, you wrote:

>Well, my freecycle ad worked - I have response from someone that has
>meat from '05 and '06 - of course I know '06 would be alright...but
>from '05??? Can dogs handle that kinda stuff?

I've eaten some wonderful venison frozen four years ago. Well packaged
and kept frozen it was fine.
~ Carol
_____________
Carol Dunster
cedunster@centurytel.net

Messages in this topic (6)
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1d. Re: [raw feeding] How expired is expired
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 4:48 pm ((PDT))

Yeah, we recently were given some older meat "for the dogs" when friends
were moving. There was one big honkin' package of porterhouse steaks (dated
2005) which I thawed last week, fully intending to feed to the dogs. Boy,
those were good steaks...some of the best we've had in a long time!!! LOL

Back on the topic of feeding dogs...they did get most of the donated meat!
:)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Carol Dunster" <cedunster@centurytel.net>

I've eaten some wonderful venison frozen four years ago. Well packaged
and kept frozen it was fine.

Messages in this topic (6)
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1e. Re: [raw feeding] How expired is expired
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 6:05 pm ((PDT))

I have a vacuum packer and I have a bad habit of stocking up on a LOT of meats when they are on sale (mostly for us....the dog's meat doesn't get vacuum packed). Occasionally I don't quite get everything rotated and we'll eat meats that I packed a few years back. A few weeks ago I ate a delicious bacon-wrapped filet that I packed in 2005, DH ate one packed a few months ago. We compared them side by side and couldn't tell the difference. I wouldn't hesitate giving my dog meat that's been working on it's freezer burn for a few years. Meat is meat.

From my understanding, grocers/butchers can't sell meat that's been in the deep freeze for over a year. At least, they can't sell it for human consumption. If you ever run across "distressed" meat, that's generally the term they use for the stuff that's been frozen for over a year. This is how it was expalined to me though SoCalBarf, the buying group where I get my meat.

Sonja

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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2a. Re: mange...
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 3:27 pm ((PDT))

Laura,

Mite issues are a problem of the immune system. They are always present but
don't cause any issues unless there is some sort of stressor in the dog's
lives. This will not be cured by using the various dips and drugs,
certainly wouldn't be helped by feeding an inappropriate diet.

Keep up with the raw, make sure you are feeding lots of meat and good fats,
up the amount of Omega 3 and keep them away from the vet. No drugs, no
vaccines, no topical preventatives, etc. Provide a fun healthy environment
and give this some time to resolve itself.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "LaUrA" <laurasue17@hotmail.com>
>
> So I am questioning things and I am unsure of myself now...(both of our
dogs are raw fed dogs)...please tell me otherwise...about a month ago Zoey
(8 month old pit mix) was diagnosed with Demodex mange. The vet gave the
Ivamectin or something. I gave it to her like I was supposed to and it still
hasn't gone away. I think Snoopy has it now. All I know is that they both
itch like crazy. I thought they were supposed to be healthier being on a raw
diet? Seems like we are about to run into the vicious cycle of visiting the
vet again. Any suggestions? They are both really itchy. Both of them have
little bald spots. It's not fleas. You know, it just really bothers me when
my babys are sick or not feeling well, know what I mean? We go for another
skin scrape in about an hour tonight. I know she still has the mange, the
bald spots aren't going away and she is still itching like crazy. All the
remedies I look up online seems like mmmm...poisons to put on or in them.
That doesn't go along with the "natural" raw diet. Although the Ivermectin
probably doesn't either...) I don't know. I am just at loss and don't know
anyone else personally, aside from groups that raw feeds.

Messages in this topic (3)
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2b. Re: mange...
Posted by: "Michelle Grabert" chalienme@yahoo.com chalienme
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 3:51 pm ((PDT))

this is what I can tell you from my own experience,. I had a dog with Demo..she didn't itch and no other dogs even though kept in with her got it. The hair and spots do take a long time to go away, weeks and weeks,. It was treated with Ivermec orally for two weeks. This sounds more like sarcoptic mange (scabies) which is known to cause intence itching and spreads rapidly among dogs and humans too. I don;t know if the treatement would be different but maybe harder to treat and be gone>? especially with multiple dogs having it? I do know Ivermec is suppose to knock almost anything out. But I beleive with Scabies they may need to be on antibiotic-steroid in addition to releive the itching. michelle

LaUrA <laurasue17@hotmail.com> wrote: *** Mod Note: please no monster sig lines--this sig trimmed for you ***

So I am questioning things and I am unsure of myself now...(both of our dogs are raw fed dogs)...please tell me otherwise...about a month ago Zoey (8 month old pit mix) was diagnosed with Demodex mange. The vet gave the Ivamectin or something. I gave it to her like I was supposed to and it still hasn't gone away. I think Snoopy has it now. All I know is that they both itch like crazy. I thought they were supposed to be healthier being on a raw diet? Seems like we are about to run into the vicious cycle of visiting the vet again. Any suggestions? They are both really itchy. Both of them have little bald spots. It's not fleas. You know, it just really bothers me when my babys are sick or not feeling well, know what I mean? We go for another skin scrape in about an hour tonight. I know she still has the mange, the bald spots aren't going away and she is still itching like crazy. All the remedies I look up online seems like mmmm...poisons to put on or in them. That doesn't go
along with the "natural" raw diet. (Although the Ivermectin probably doesn't either...) I don't know. I am just at loss and don't know anyone else personally, aside from groups that raw feeds.

Laura
Proud Mommy to Miss Samantha (10 years old going on 16! LOL!!) and step mom to Heather -17, Nikki - 14 and Michelle - 9 - the most beautiful girls in the world!!!!!
Mom to furbabies: Snoopy (male - neutered - 13 month old - pit mix - 60lbs.) and Zoey (female - spayed - 8 month old - pit mix - approx. 50lbs.)

---------------------------------
Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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3a. Re: Shedding on raw
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 3:32 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Josephine!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you suggesting that Kae
feed soy to a carnivore?

Soy 'anything' is not a species appropriate food for a dog.

Horses are herbivores, they have evolved to get their nutrition from
plant matter.

And, btw, raw isn't all protein - there's skin, and fat, and bone and....

Check out this link;
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

Enter different meats into the field box, choose a body part and
amount and compare the grams of protein and different nutrients in
raw. They don't do bone, its counted as 'refuse' so the amount of
protein a raw fed dog will get would be even lower.
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/cgi-bin/list_nut_edit.pl
100 grams = 3.52739619 ounces

Feeding inappropriate plant matter or restricting protein isn't the
answer.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> I wonder if its like with horses.. some that are given more protein
content
> then they are used to.. (some meats have more then others. such as
turkey is
> very high in protein) as i found when given more protein that my
older horse
> shed constantly. just NOW remembered that what i had used to
supplement his
> diet was soy meal.
>
> AND was reading earlier this morning. that soy is an estrogen based
protein.
> AND that if animals are FED soy in their diet.. that its also putting
> estrogen into their muscle.. IE: the meat that dogs eat..
>
> might be a case of finding out where the meat is grown? and what
feeds they
> are being given. not sure if that is an option to switch.. though??

> --
> Josephine MorningStar & Heather, Pyr, Mobility & MASD
> Native American in Massachusetts
>
> Never threaten anyone. It ruins the surprise.
> www.apachecreations.com

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: I would like to learn more about raw food !
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 3:39 pm ((PDT))

Hi!
You didn't tell us your name, or anything about your dog(s).

I have lots of recommendations;
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374

post # 141374

Some great websites;
http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes

You might want to print out the info you find, and highlight the
relevant parts.

TC, tell us about your dogs, and keep us updated on your progress!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> I am a new member and I don't know anything about raw food what is the
> best website to learn more about raw food for dogs and any place they
> give what should I give and the quantity?

Messages in this topic (4)
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5a. Re: Chewing bones
Posted by: "girlndocs" girlndocs@hotmail.com girlndocs
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 3:52 pm ((PDT))

Hi Sarah,

> Now that I've got Fern attempting to eat the chicken, I'm noticing
> that the real stumbling block seems to be chewing the larger pieces
> of chicken. It's like she doesn't know what to do with them. I don't
> think I should cut things up smaller b/c that's part of the point of
> feeding raw, right? But she seems to eat the smaller pieces that get
> separated from the main large piece(s) and that's it.

Zoe did exactly the same thing. She just didn't know what to do with
it. I already observed that she was a very thorough chewer, so I felt
comfortable cutting her meals up for her in the short term to get her
used to eating the new food.

The "weaning" went something like this:

bite size seared and hand offered
bite size hand offered
bite size and seared offered on the floor
bite size offered on the floor
big piece seared and hand offered
big piece hand offered
big piece offered on floor

And I progressed one step each day, so it took about a week. I still
didn't coax or change what I fed her -- if she turned her nose up at
it I repeated the same step the next day (so, ok, a little more than a
week due to "menu repeats").

It's been a month and she's chowing down just about anything I throw
in her crate for her, so in some circumstances making things easier by
cutting up can grease the process. I wouldn't have done it for a
gulper, though, no question about it.

(BTW, I cut through chicken quarters with a clean pair of pruning shears.)

Kristin

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: Chewing bones
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 4:04 pm ((PDT))

Sarah,

You could try slicing into them in a few places to give her a starting
point.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "qsgirl916" <qsgirl916@yahoo.com>

Now that I've got Fern attempting to eat the chicken, I'm noticing that
the real stumbling block seems to be chewing the larger pieces of
chicken. It's like she doesn't know what to do with them.

I don't think I should cut things up smaller b/c that's part of the
point of feeding raw, right? But she seems to eat the smaller pieces
that get separated from the main large piece(s) and that's it.

Messages in this topic (4)
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6a. Re: Dry Skin but Feeding Raw
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 3:52 pm ((PDT))

Sarah,

Those products are notoriously lacking in meat and fat so that could be the
answer!!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Sarah Retzer" <s_retzer@yahoo.com>

> Thanks everyone for the great advice. I will pass on the info.
> She is feeding a blend that she buys from a local health petfood store. I
don't know the ratio offhand but I'll have a look. I'm sure with all the
great advice we can figure out what the issue is!

Messages in this topic (7)
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7a. Re: Frustrated and cannot find any answers - I'm In The Same Boat
Posted by: "Maiakitas@aol.com" Maiakitas@aol.com maiakitas
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 3:55 pm ((PDT))

HI Giselle,

Well, Beau ate half of a big, ole 8 lb chicken today after I laced it with
tripe. I don't know if he was THAT hungry, which is a distinct possibility, or
it was the tripe or the combo, but only time will tell.

The raw mixed with his training treats did not go over any better today, but
perhaps I put in too much raw, so I'll play around with the mixture.

Thanks for the suggestions and I'll keep you posted. Any other suggestions or
thoughts to get this white boy on track still appreciated.

Regards,
Carla

**************************************
See what's new at

http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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7b. Re: Frustrated and cannot find any answers - I'm In The Same Boat
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 5:52 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Carla!
KEWL!
Just keep on truckin', he'll get there!
TC
Giselle

> Well, Beau ate half of a big, ole 8 lb chicken today after I laced
it with
> tripe. I don't know if he was THAT hungry, which is a distinct
possibility, or
> it was the tripe or the combo, but only time will tell.
>
> The raw mixed with his training treats did not go over any better
today, but
> perhaps I put in too much raw, so I'll play around with the mixture.
>
> Thanks for the suggestions and I'll keep you posted. Any other
suggestions or
> thoughts to get this white boy on track still appreciated.
>
> Regards,
> Carla
>
>
> **************************************
> See what's new at
> http://www.aol.com
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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8a. Re: Oil
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 4:07 pm ((PDT))

Those vitamins are already plentiful in the diet and CLO is about useless
for providing the necessary Omega 3 which is generally the purpose of
supplementing with oils to begin with.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "briargarden07" <briargarden07@yahoo.com>

I've always supplemented w/ Cod Liver Oil. It is high in the fat
soluble vitamins A & D, so I do not feed it on a daily basis. But those
vitamins are needed in the diet, and cod liver oil is a good addition
to the diet in moderation. My dogs tolerate it much better than salmon
oil, and never understood why its got such a bad rap!

Messages in this topic (8)
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8b. Re: Oil
Posted by: "aliciamyan" alicia_larson@msn.com aliciamyan
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 4:33 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Andrea" <poketmouse45@...> wrote:
>
> A good raw diet already supplies enough vit A and D, so when you give
> CLO you can unintentionally oversupplement those vitamins. Vit A
> doesn't get excreted when in excess, it builds up in the body and can
> build up to toxic levels. IMO, if you are adding oil for O3 purposes
> it is best to give something that doesn't have the extras.
>
> Andrea

So, I went to the pet store today with the idea of purchasing salmon
oil - because that's what I read about here. When I got there, I let
the clerk talk me into 17oz of CLO instead - since we are in Oregon and
won't see the sun again for another 6 months - if we're lucky. I came
home to discover this dialog and links about CLO not being a good
option. Timing is everything and I don't have it! Because we are just
starting out - only feeding chicken for now - should I go ahead and use
the CLO and then switch to Salmon? I assume will go through it quick
since I'm feeding two dogs, 90lb+ GSD and a 50lb lab. Or is the risk
of overdose not worth the inconvenience of returning it to the store?
Not looking forward to returning to the pet store so soon...see message
about plant material for how the first visit went...

Thanks,
Alicia

Messages in this topic (8)
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8c. Re: Oil
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 4:39 pm ((PDT))

Return it and get your money back. That's what I'd do. You don't even have
to enter any debate, just say "I picked up the wrong oil and need to return
this."

On 10/2/07, aliciamyan <alicia_larson@msn.com> wrote:

Not looking forward to returning to the pet store so soon...see message
about plant material for how the first visit went...

Thanks,
Alicia

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so.
Bertrand Russell

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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9a. Re: Success!
Posted by: "Shannon Hully" summerwolf@theherbalhotline.com bluehankw
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 4:32 pm ((PDT))

I get all of my "cat food" (read: guinea pigs, quail, chicks, and
rats) from www.rodentpro.com right now. We're moving out of country
and I've had to scramble to find a new supplier for their food as
none of these suppliers here can ship to Canada.

RodentPro also has rabbits and mice. Kind of expensive on the
shipping though. There are quite a few places you can order online
for such things, which one you choose depends a lot on where you're
located (as far as shipping costs go). With RodentPro they have
weekly specials on things they've got excess of, you can get some
amazing prices sometimes, generally on the larger sizes of things
(good for dogs, too big for my kitties).

I recently found http://www.prey4pets.com/servlet/StoreFront and if
we were sticking around this country I'd go with them, I really like
her ideals and practices for the meats she sells.

Shannon H.

>
> You feed guinea pigs? I never heard of those being sold for food,
only as
> pets. Where does one go to purchase small animals meant for food?
>
> Mona

Messages in this topic (16)
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10a. Re: scared newbie
Posted by: "Alisha Johnson" charlieschoicetreatco@yahoo.ca charlieschoicetreatco
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 4:33 pm ((PDT))

I too have a gulper pug....I trained her to chew by giving her frozen turkey necks(straight out of the deep freeze) this way she has to rip and tear and now I find I can give her other chunks of meat(not frozen) and she does a much better job at chewing....the odd time she will still try to swallow a peice that is too big and wreches it back up...but she is sooooo much better...also it brushed their teeth and massages their gums extremely well!

Cheers,
Alisha

---------------------------------
Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (15)
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11a. Demodicosis mange and RAW
Posted by: "trayc2244" BreeZ119@catt.com trayc2244
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 4:33 pm ((PDT))

I am probably going to be fostering(adopting) a dog that has
demodicosis mange. Is it a good or bad idea to go ahead and start her
on the raw diet? Should I wait until she is completly healed first?

Thanks,
Tracy

Messages in this topic (2)
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11b. Re: Demodicosis mange and RAW
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 4:38 pm ((PDT))

Start her on raw immediately. No better way to build up/support the immune
system then by feeding an appropriate diet! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "trayc2244" <BreeZ119@catt.com>

I am probably going to be fostering(adopting) a dog that has
demodicosis mange. Is it a good or bad idea to go ahead and start her
on the raw diet? Should I wait until she is completly healed first?

Messages in this topic (2)
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12a. Re: scared newbie.....now not so scared
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 4:42 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Carmie!
^_^
Keep us posted on your progress!
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Thank you, Thank you! I thank everyone who replied to my fear. I think
> I get it now. "Dogs don't chew like we do" Okay..breath, big pieces and
> let dogs be dogs. Thank you again, this site is great, Carmie
>

Messages in this topic (15)
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13a. Re: Plant Material {previously - Re: Adding on to Supplement Questio
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 4:43 pm ((PDT))

You better do some quick reading so you can return that oil cuz CLO is not
what you want to be using for a supplement. :))

Seriously, if you are looking to add some good Omega 3 to the diet, you need
fish body (not liver) oil or salmon oil. A & D are already plentiful in the
diet and in order to get any amount of Omega 3 you'd have to OD on those
vitamins!!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

Being new at
this and a bit nervous, I probably didn't come off as confident as
I'd like. Hopefully the oil will last long enough for me to read
more and see more positive results so I'll be ready if the topic re-
surfaces when I go back.

Messages in this topic (12)
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14a. Re: Salmon oil questions and.....
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 5:12 pm ((PDT))

^_^

I even saw Lis posting her own List on here today......

and for good measure;
http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes

Thanks, Carol!
TC
Giselle

> Hi Laura,
>
> We can see you're not a big reader, lol.
>
> Your wish is Giselle's command. She post either
> a link to a page for newbies or post it over and over
> again, sometimes several times a day, lol........
>
> It is a wonderful page and should help you alot if you take the time
> to read it..........
>
> Oh Look! Here it is again! I sure hope Giselle doesn't mind me
> sending it on....
>
> Link; http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374
>
> Hope this helps.....
>
> Carol, Charkee & Moli

Messages in this topic (10)
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15a. Re: Day 3 raw feeding;
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 5:40 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Alex!
I'm glad to read that you and GiGi are doing well, and not
panicking! ^_^

Why not just give her a small snack or treat in the pm? A chicken
heart or gizzard isn't much, but it can stave off the "I'm starving!"
looks and stop your guilty feelings. 'Specially if you dice them up
and offer one bit at a time for a sit, or a 'trick'. Makes 'em last
longer, and you both have fun interacting. It can also help to reduce
or eliminate BV or BBV in the early am hours. You could also offer her
a Bully Stick or chicken feets to chew.

Her digestion will improve as time goes on, and you won't be seeing
even those bits of bone, they will be fuel for your carnivore's fire, too!

Don't you just love feeding raw? Its so, green! ; )
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

<snip>
> Other than that, just gonna stick with chicken quarters for a few
> weeks maybe throwing in an organ here or there. I consider these
> past 3 days a success, so just gonna keep taking it slow.
>
> Alex Dewey
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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16. Garlic - Yes or No
Posted by: "Roseann" rgabrys@wyan.org gaiabreeze
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 6:05 pm ((PDT))

I've read so much lately about optimum diets for dogs and more than a
little has been conflicting but this question really needs an answer.
Is garlic like onion and dangerous to feed to your dog or is it a useful
supplement to a raw diet? I've read you should Never feed it and I've
also read to include it Often. Is there a consensus here? Thanks for
an opportunity to ask.
Roseann aka Gaiabreeze

Messages in this topic (1)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12108

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Diseases in deer/rabbit meat?
From: Shannon Hully

2a. Re: Feeding Amounts
From: girlndocs

3a. Oil
From: tobi1035
3b. Re: Oil
From: briargarden07
3c. Re: Oil
From: Andrea

4.1. Re: newbie
From: Andrea

5a. Chewing bones
From: qsgirl916
5b. Re: Chewing bones
From: Andrea

6a. Re: Should a Pit Bull be fed a Raw Diet?
From: Jen S

7a. Re: scared newbie
From: nlhp4
7b. Re: scared newbie
From: sarahfalkner
7c. Re: scared newbie
From: delcaste

8a. Re: Success!
From: Mona

9.1. Re: Shiner doing better! (was Re: 911-PLEASE HELP)
From: Doguefan@aol.com
9.2. Shiner doing better! (was Re: 911-PLEASE HELP)
From: Andrea
9.3. Shiner doing better! (was Re: 911-PLEASE HELP)
From: delcaste

10a. Re: scared newbie.....now not so scared
From: c.bednar

11a. Plant Material {previously - Re: Adding on to Supplement Question}
From: aliciamyan

12.1. Re: Salmon Oil
From: cr008k

13a. Day 3 raw feeding;
From: alexanderdewey
13b. Re: Day 3 raw feeding;
From: Laura Atkinson

14a. Re: Salmon oil questions and.....
From: tottime47

15a. Re: Dry Skin but Feeding Raw
From: temy1102

16. [raw feeding] How expired is expired
From: Brandi Bryant

17. mange...
From: LaUrA

Messages
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1a. Re: Diseases in deer/rabbit meat?
Posted by: "Shannon Hully" summerwolf@theherbalhotline.com bluehankw
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 9:56 am ((PDT))

Bill (or anyone else knowledgeable),

My husband's concern with feeding wildlife is the worry of diseases
such as Distemper, Rabies, etc. I'm not clear on whether such things
can be caught orally. I know that a healthy immune system can fight
off things that an unhealthy dog would catch, but wouldn't the stomach
acids generally break down any diseases they were consuming? Or have I
got that all wrong? Happens from time to time. ;-)

Shannon H.

> My dogs catch rabbits and squirrels from time to time and eat them
> on the spot. My cats catch and eat little cirtters almost daily. I
> don't worry about it.

> > If so, how long do I need to
> > keep these kinds of meat frozen before I feed them?
>
> If you are concerned about it, a few weeks should be ok. Dogs have
> such acidic stomach juices, I really don't worry about anything that
> goes in the mouth.
>
> > Is there
> > any part
> > of wild animals that I should avoid feeding?
>
> Not that I can think of right now.
>
> Bill Carnes

Messages in this topic (4)
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2a. Re: Feeding Amounts
Posted by: "girlndocs" girlndocs@hotmail.com girlndocs
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 9:57 am ((PDT))

Hi Loraine,

> I too would like to hear sample menues, say for a week, that you
> would feed a pup. Sometimes it is all so simple and easy that I
> think I must be missing something <grin>.

This is what Zoe, my 80ish-lb Lab mix, has eaten the past week.

Yesterday, a small fryer chicken half. I'd cut a lot of the meat off
of this to dice up for my cats (who are weaning to raw), and what
remained was bonier than I liked, so I also added a small slab of
something boneless from my "miscellaneous bag" -- I think it was beef
round.

The day before that, boneless turkey breast tenderloins. I got these
from my ad on Freecycle.

The day before that, the first half of said frying chicken and a wee
chunk of pork kidney (which I found at my local Korean market).

The day before that, a whole mackerel (same as the kidney -- nice
because they come *completely* whole).

The day before that, a turkey drumstick and a little beef heart(Korean
market again).

The day before that, a quarter of a bigger chicken.

Um, I can't remember the day before that. ^.^ Hee.

Kristin
***
www.blackdogzoe.blogspot.com
http://www.etsy.com/shop.php?user_id=5036662

Messages in this topic (13)
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3a. Oil
Posted by: "tobi1035" tobi1035@yahoo.com tobi1035
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 9:57 am ((PDT))

Chris O. why not Cod liver oil? Where do I find fish body oil?
Thanks, Susan

Messages in this topic (5)
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3b. Re: Oil
Posted by: "briargarden07" briargarden07@yahoo.com briargarden07
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 10:50 am ((PDT))

Noelle M.

Messages in this topic (5)
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3c. Re: Oil
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 11:19 am ((PDT))

A good raw diet already supplies enough vit A and D, so when you give
CLO you can unintentionally oversupplement those vitamins. Vit A
doesn't get excreted when in excess, it builds up in the body and can
build up to toxic levels. IMO, if you are adding oil for O3 purposes
it is best to give something that doesn't have the extras.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "briargarden07" <briargarden07@...>
wrote:
>
> I've always supplemented w/ Cod Liver Oil. It is high in the fat
> soluble vitamins A & D, so I do not feed it on a daily basis. But
> those vitamins are needed in the diet, and cod liver oil is a good
> addition to the diet in moderation. My dogs tolerate it much better
> than salmon oil, and never understood why its got such a bad rap!

Messages in this topic (5)
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4.1. Re: newbie
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 10:49 am ((PDT))

Some dogs do, my GSP definitely does, especially if he ate a large meal
the day before. If breakfast was something she usually eats she was
probably just not hungry, not to worry. Some dogs can get a little
bored with poultry, maybe it is time to start introducing pork?

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "nrskay" <kay.mardesich@...> wrote:

> Do they do that at times, fast a meal on their own? I have been only
> feeding chicken and turkey ground meat. She is a little thin due to
> hating k***l in the past 4 years. Her stools are fine, she hasn't
> vomited or choked on any bones.

Messages in this topic (52)
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5a. Chewing bones
Posted by: "qsgirl916" qsgirl916@yahoo.com qsgirl916
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 10:50 am ((PDT))

Now that I've got Fern attempting to eat the chicken, I'm noticing that
the real stumbling block seems to be chewing the larger pieces of
chicken. It's like she doesn't know what to do with them.

I don't think I should cut things up smaller b/c that's part of the
point of feeding raw, right? But she seems to eat the smaller pieces
that get separated from the main large piece(s) and that's it.

Ideas? Suggestions?

Thanks,
Sarah and Fern

PS: Corgi (named Bailey) still eating like a machine - he loves the
diet!

Messages in this topic (2)
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5b. Re: Chewing bones
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 11:21 am ((PDT))

The larger parts can be a little daunting at first to some dogs. Are
you still ribboning the meat on the big parts? Getting easy to grab
strips might help her out. How big is the food when Fern starts to get
confused?

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "qsgirl916" <qsgirl916@...> wrote:
>
> Now that I've got Fern attempting to eat the chicken, I'm noticing
> that the real stumbling block seems to be chewing the larger pieces
> of chicken. It's like she doesn't know what to do with them.

Messages in this topic (2)
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6a. Re: Should a Pit Bull be fed a Raw Diet?
Posted by: "Jen S" jennilist@gmail.com bowiegirl1979
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 10:51 am ((PDT))

> Tell your dad that raw is good gor Pits.

And that Pits are just like any other dog. They are not more
aggressive than any other breed. My 3 year old pittie boy has been
rawfed for a year and a half and he's a big baby.

Jen

--
The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are
treated. -Mahatma Gandhi

Messages in this topic (12)
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7a. Re: scared newbie
Posted by: "nlhp4" nlhp4@yahoo.com nlhp4
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 11:20 am ((PDT))

Hi Carmie,
Don't worry too much about being a bit aprehensive with the bones. I
was VERY scared starting Titan, my lab/rot mix, on a raw diet when he
was seven months old (he's 13 months now). So scared that I kept
putting him on the diet, then taking him off and giving him k***le
again. Now, he won't even smell k***le. Here's what I can tell you...

>Does anyone smash or break up the bones before giving to there dogs?
I thought of this too when I started out, expecially since Titan was
a gulper and didn't chew. I never did get to smashing or breaking up
the bones, my greatest fear was that I would miss a piece or a small
piece would splinter wrong and hurt them worse than if they just ate
the bone themselves.

>How do I know if my dogs are chewing the bones enough to not cause
damage?
Really, you don't. My experience, the dogs' body will let them know
what's not right. Titan, my gulper, ate a whole chicken leg (good
size one) when I first started feeding him raw. It took his body
about 10 minutes to reject it and he regurgitated the whole thing
onto my carpet, and about 5 more minutes before he was feeling up to
eating it again, this time with a bit of help from me to ensure he
ate it properly. He took a bit of work before he could eat a bone
without help because he didn't like to chew, but each time he did it
wrong he either regurgitated or had bone in his stool so I knew he
was being a pig again and not chewing.

Best advice...let them tell you. Believe it or not, even the dumbest
dog can figure this raw feeding thing out after a few mistakes. My
two dogs tell me what is going on most of the time, of course I am
the one cleaning icky stuff out of the carpet but that's my burden
for knowing my dogs are better off being raw fed.

-Sibyl

Messages in this topic (13)
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7b. Re: scared newbie
Posted by: "sarahfalkner" Sarah.Falkner@gmail.com sarahfalkner
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 12:00 pm ((PDT))

Hi Carmie,

I just want to offer a little reassurance--it's important to remember that most people post
questions and problems to a list like this either because they're new and have questions,
or they're having a problem--so it would be very easy and totally understandable to get
nervous reading message after message detailing various problems with poop, vomit,
choking, even a seizure... but, these are really exceptions to the norm, not the norm.
Most people out there are not having a problem, and therefore not posting...

I'm sure a lot of the very experienced people on this list who generally do the responses to
newbie questions and problems can all chime in with their experiences of years feeding
raw without any problems and with many benefits gained; if you join the Raw Meaty Bones
group, in their member files they have been collecting testimonials from people who've
been rawfeeding dogs, cats and ferrets, worth reading to remind yourself that most
people/animals have few if any problems with raw feeding and receive many, many
benefits.

As for myself, years ago when I didn't know about raw feeding, I had a k*bble-fed cat who
got a white blood cell cancer; my vet at the time said he wouldn't last a month and wanted
to euthanize him then and there. I went to a different vet who promoted raw food (a
different model than this list supports) and homeopathy, and the cat made a nearly
miraculous turnaround, and lived a year of quality before having a downturn (if only I'd
known about raw years before...) I've since then had 2 cats who since they came to me 3
years ago were raw fed according to that first raw model I'd been told about, that
incorporated some veg and grain; then, I switched to RMB this past summer and I have to
say, since I was already feeding a version of raw before, I hadn't expected there to be too
much of a difference, but the cats are even more fabulous before: even silkier coats, and
while they were always energetic, they're even more so, and yet more loving and cuddlier
when at rest. Due to their silky, slinky appearance and graceful, witty antics, people
(presumably only familiar with k*bble-fed cats) often remark that the cats seem less like
domestic cats and more like ocelots or some exotic species. But they're just rawfed Felis
silvestris catus, v. brooklyn alleyus...

Once or twice Ivan vomited some clear yellowish stomach acid in the morning when he
was very ready for breakfast but breakfast wasn't ready for him, but to no ill effect--that's
pretty minor and has been the only less than lovely result of the new diet (unless you also
count a certain squeamish houseguest once stepping on a half-eaten fish head in her bare
feet)

All the best,

Sarah
under supervision by felidae Henry and Ivan, and mustelidae Quercus and Ilex

Messages in this topic (13)
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7c. Re: scared newbie
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 1:29 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "c.bednar" <itsagilitytime@...>
wrote:
>
> Hello all, I posted the scared about bones question and I appreciate
> the advice and support of this group. However the frenchie and the
> great dane that choked have got me scared again. Does anyone smash or
> break up the bones before giving to there dogs? How do I know if my
> dogs are chewing the bones enough to not cause damage? Thanks to all
> that reply. Carmie

Carmie, I have one big gulper, a pug, and also thought of smashing her
food. She has fainted while eating her kibble so I know it's not the
raw food that makes her choke/faint. She inhales her food. But if you
smash the bones before giving it to them, you are making it easier for
them to inhale their food. Better for them to work at ripping and
tearing. I followed the advice on this list (very anxiously) and fed
her a large amount, about as big as her muzzle/head. She has to work at
ripping that food off of a bone.

Silvina

Messages in this topic (13)
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8a. Re: Success!
Posted by: "Mona" mona@ptd.net deliriousmom
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 11:20 am ((PDT))

You feed guinea pigs? I never heard of those being sold for food, only as
pets. Where does one go to purchase small animals meant for food?

Mona

From: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com [mailto:rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Shannon Hully
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 11:36 AM
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [rawfeeding] Success!

> I think that's part of why the books make it so hard. WHO would
pay
> good money for a book whose entire message is "Get a chicken. Feed
> it."?

***I nearly spat my drink all over my keyboard reading that! ROFL

Well, having no friends who feed raw I had to crow on here, hehe. :-)

My Grey had his first bone that wasn't chicken this morning (from a
hunk of pork roast) and he had a grand old time working on that.
Didn't finish it but seeing as it was his first bone that actually
took *work* I wasn't surprised by that. He just loved it! You could
see the look of: "Oh yes, *THIS* is what I've been wanting!" on his
face.

Now, the "success" part of this (hence the subject name) comes from
what Chris said: >and whatever the cat doesn't eat.

He is allowed to clean up after the cats are done, when I give him
the go-ahead(took a bit of work for that but we got the idea down,
hehe). He happily slurps up any liver and blood, and after the first
look of horror at me offering him a foot, the feet are now on his
menu. He's eaten a chick and half of a guinea pig. He even figured
out that rat tails is good eatin'. But his one hold-out has been
quail chicks (3 weeks old). He'd rush over, sniff them, and then
turn his nose away. I'd hold them out to him... same thing. (He
would, however, eat the legs that my cats seem to feel are beneath
them).

Last night I had the brainstorm of giving him one frozen as I was
grabbing out two for the cats' breakfast for today.

He took one sniff at it and happily trotted to his blanket, laid
down, and proceeded to eat the whole thing!! (He got loads of praise
for that one!)

So, for whatever reason, quail smell bad warmed up but fully edible
frozen. :-D

Shannon H. and Darwin, who's found a way to enjoy all types of meat
he's encountered so far.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (15)
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9.1. Re: Shiner doing better! (was Re: 911-PLEASE HELP)
Posted by: "Doguefan@aol.com" Doguefan@aol.com knoxkennels
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 11:20 am ((PDT))

Hi Andrea.? Shiner is 11 weeks and about 7 lbs.? She is very tiny little thing.? At fiest she struggled with any sort of raw.? I am very aware of feeding "big Pieces" as I have mastiffs that will try and swallow EVERYTHING!? They cut 6 way cut goats and such plus big hunks of meat.
In the last week, she acts ravenous now!? I thought, great!? So just in the last week she has started finishing a whole breast...bone and all, and it took her a nice long while.? In addition I would throw in a few pieces of beef cheek meat.? Yesterday morning was like any other.? They all eat in their crates.? The big dogs were munching away and so was Shiner, however, She must have picked up the whole thing and tried to swallow.? She has tried chunks too big before, and just did the normal vomit and try again.? This time I believe it was too awkward and frenchies has short little pallets and tracheas anyway; maybe have had gotten down and she could not get it up. She ended up CHOKING(yes, she was choking)because the stress on the soft tissue closed down on her wind pipe.? My Dad as an ER doc see's so many choking cases and was very knowledgable of exactly what happened.? He of course tells me I am nuts to be feeding raw...at least to such a little dog he adds.? He has seen the way my big dogs eat without a hitch.?
It is posted on here all the time that chicken breats are a great way to go for little puppies.? I am so very careful with what I feed.? I also tried the heimlich(which I know how to do) but this thing was not budging which why she could not get it up herself.? Thank goodness her little muscles were able to push it down into her stomach finally, but there was so much damage done to her throat.? I watched this poor little dog gasp and gurgle in my arms.? My fingers are chewed from trying to help her.? She was asperating and panicked, and thank goodness she is okay.? I think it is mainly because she LOVES her food and she attempted the impossible.? Right now she is getting organic baby food until she goes to the bathroom and I know she is okay.

Chelsea

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrea <poketmouse45@yahoo.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 7:52 am
Subject: [rawfeeding] Shiner doing better! (was Re: 911-PLEASE HELP)

I'm so glad that Shiner is all better! I know it was a very scary
situation, but before you swear off a species appropriate diet, let's
try and figure out what happened in the first place. How big is Shiner
and how big was the chicken breast she choked on? Was it cut up or
whole?

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Doguefan@... wrote:

> "Shiner" , is doing great this morning, aside form the fact that I
> just can't bring myself to feed her raw again.? I thought a chicken
> breast was the easiest of things to eat.? Needless to say I am
> soooo scared.

________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (30)
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9.2. Shiner doing better! (was Re: 911-PLEASE HELP)
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 11:57 am ((PDT))

Gosh, that sounds awful. I'm sure she'll pass the bone ok, poor little
thing just got really overzealous with the chicken breast, I guess.
Maybe the little frenchie thinks she's a mastiff? (=

I recall that when Chris O brought home her BC pup she would cut open
small chickens/game hens so they were kind of flattened out in order to
make the small food more complicated and difficult to eat for the pup.
Maybe a butterflied whole game hen would be good for Shiner?

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Doguefan@... wrote:
>
> Hi Andrea.? Shiner is 11 weeks and about 7 lbs.? She is very tiny
little thing.? At fiest she struggled with any sort of raw.? I am very
aware of feeding "big Pieces" as I have mastiffs that will try and
swallow EVERYTHING!? They cut 6 way cut goats and such plus big hunks
of meat.

Messages in this topic (30)
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9.3. Shiner doing better! (was Re: 911-PLEASE HELP)
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 1:30 pm ((PDT))

Thank goodness her little muscles were able to push it down into her
stomach finally, but there was so much damage done to her throat.? I
watched this poor little dog gasp and gurgle in my arms.? My fingers
are chewed from trying to help her.? She was asperating and panicked,
and thank goodness she is okay.? I think it is mainly because she LOVES
her food and she attempted the impossible.? Right now she is getting
organic baby food until she goes to the bathroom and I know >

I am so happy your Shiner is doing so much better. How scary for you to
watch. I agree with you and would keep him on baby foods so her little
throat heals. Like I said before, I have gulpers and something that has
helped slow down the eating so they work at eating is to get a big
piece of meat (at least as big as their muzzle/head) and ribbon it in
small, well, ribbons. It was suggested by Sandee. Maybe she can go into
more detail.

Silvina

Messages in this topic (30)
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10a. Re: scared newbie.....now not so scared
Posted by: "c.bednar" itsagilitytime@aol.com c.bednar
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 11:57 am ((PDT))

Thank you, Thank you! I thank everyone who replied to my fear. I think
I get it now. "Dogs don't chew like we do" Okay..breath, big pieces and
let dogs be dogs. Thank you again, this site is great, Carmie

Messages in this topic (13)
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11a. Plant Material {previously - Re: Adding on to Supplement Question}
Posted by: "aliciamyan" alicia_larson@msn.com aliciamyan
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 1:30 pm ((PDT))

> Dogs are carnivores. They have no nutritional need for any plant
> material at all.
>
> I recommend that you not worry about it. If they want to eat
grass,
> let them. They have no nutritional need for any plant material at
> all.

Bill, Could have used you at the pet store today. I went in to pick
up cod liver oil for my dogs. The guy behind the counter was talking
about the benefits of the oil. It had just arrived and he was
creating conversation while he opened the box and he asked what I
feed...as I am not quite a week into feeding raw, I really didn't
want to go there until I have more experience. I told him "I feed
raw." He mentioned a brand they carry - the ground variety with "the
perfect balance of nutrition". I said I purchase human food for my
raw. Of course, his brand is better than human quality (free range,
no hormones, additives, etc.) I asked if it had fruits/veg. and he
said yes - "dogs must have some in their diets". He said you'll find
very small amounts of nuts and seeds in wolf/wild dog poo. My
counter was of course they'll eat nuts and berries when they can't
find meat...it's survival mode that drives them to meat alternatives
in the wild. He again said they need more than meat for a balanced
diet...I said "like grass?" and he said yes. I paid and left. I
guess I have that covered - 4+ acres covered in the green stuff!
Funny, I've never seen the dogs grazing with the horses and cows
before, condsidering it is a dietary requirement for them. Every now
and again, they might munch a few blades of fresh grass, but they
prefer the recylced grass found in the manure pile. Being new at
this and a bit nervous, I probably didn't come off as confident as
I'd like. Hopefully the oil will last long enough for me to read
more and see more positive results so I'll be ready if the topic re-
surfaces when I go back.

Thanks for the wealth of information this group provides!
Alicia

Messages in this topic (11)
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12.1. Re: Salmon Oil
Posted by: "cr008k" crakoczy@gmail.com cr008k
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 1:32 pm ((PDT))

For those who don't feed salmon oil, how much fish/ what percentage of
the diet is composed of fish? Is feeding whole fish a realistic way
of providing the same nutrients (esp w/ molly's itchiness)
Christy

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Andrea" <poketmouse45@...> wrote:
>
> > 1. Do I feed salmon oil every day, once a week or what?
>
> I try to feed once a day
>
> > 2. How many mgs. or capsules do I feed at a time (per body weight)?
>
> When I look for fish oil I try to get 1000mg capsules that contain at
> least 180mg EPA and 120mg DHA each. Geiger gets a maintenance dose -
> 1000mg per 20lb of dog. Tycho gets a theraputic dose - 1000mg per
> 10lb of dog.
>
> > 3. For those of you who use the salmon oil capsules, do you
> > actually feed the capsules or do you squirt the contents on the
> > meat?
>
> It probably depends on the dog, but mine eat the capsules like they
> are treats. The fish oil has helped Tycho tremendously with his
> itchy skin, not to mention he lost all trace of "doggy smell." Now
> if I could only keep him from laying down in every puddle he sees I
> would never have to bathe him.
>
> Andrea
>

Messages in this topic (75)
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13a. Day 3 raw feeding;
Posted by: "alexanderdewey" alexanderdewey@yahoo.com alexanderdewey
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 1:51 pm ((PDT))

Gigi has been eating Raw for 3 days. She still seems to enjoy it
very much. So far, I've only given her chicken. Here's how her
poop and stuff has been.

Day 1. Big slimey poop - looked like passed the whole quarter
chicken all chewed up.

Day 2. Threw up most of the quarter chicken about 10 minutes after
she ate. Most of it looked well chewed, but there was some bone
that hadn't been chewed up enough. She slurped everything back up
and re-chewed the boney parts. Later in the afternoon, when she
pooped, she made just a few small hard pieces. Late at night, she
was looking hungry, so I gave her a drumstick.

Day 3. She left the tip of the drumstick bone in a puddle of
stomach bile. I fed her a quarter chicken a little later. Walked
her a couple of times but again, she has only made very little hard
poops. Not much volume.

I've read a lot here about how feeding raw reduces the amount of
poop, but seriously, where is all this chicken going?

Also, she's used to eating 3 times a day - and always being hungry.
But since I'm trying to give her 'big pieces' to encourage chewing,
I'm basically putting down a whole days worth of food for her to eat
in one sitting, so for the first time in her life, I'm seeing her
look satisfied and 'full'. This is great! But then at night she
looks hungry again. If I've already given her the recommended amount
of food for the day, should I feed her again? It's REALLY HARD not
to feed this hungry looking dog...

Other than that, just gonna stick with chicken quarters for a few
weeks maybe throwing in an organ here or there. I consider these
past 3 days a success, so just gonna keep taking it slow.

Alex Dewey

Messages in this topic (2)
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13b. Re: Day 3 raw feeding;
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 3:01 pm ((PDT))

The chicken is being digested and utilized by the dog. What you're not
seeing is the waste of all of the filler and undigestible grains and other
crap that you're used to having to scoop up! Isn't it wonderful?

On 10/2/07, alexanderdewey <alexanderdewey@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I've read a lot here about how feeding raw reduces the amount of
> poop, but seriously, where is all this chicken going?

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so.
Bertrand Russell

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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14a. Re: Salmon oil questions and.....
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 1:54 pm ((PDT))

Hi Laura,

We can see you're not a big reader, lol.

Your wish is Giselle's command. She post either
a link to a page for newbies or post it over and over
again, sometimes several times a day, lol........

It is a wonderful page and should help you alot if you take the time
to read it..........

Oh Look! Here it is again! I sure hope Giselle doesn't mind me
sending it on....

Link; http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374

Hope this helps.....

Carol, Charkee & Moli

> "lauraanimal1" <lauraanimal1@> wrote:

> > > Also I think Chris O and Gisell(sp?) need to get together and
> write
> > down a raw fed language book/page for the newbies.
> *****

Messages in this topic (9)
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15a. Re: Dry Skin but Feeding Raw
Posted by: "temy1102" ahn.tammy@gmail.com temy1102
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 2:16 pm ((PDT))

My dog Grover gets dandruffy/dry skin after every bath. I use
incredibly gentle all-natural (and expensive!!) shampoo and
room-temperature water and ONLY bathe when absolutely necessary (after
the beach, after visiting a mudhole, or when I really really just want
to), but it still happens. I don't brush as much as I should, so
maybe that's why. Also, I know some people bathe too often with water
that's much too hot, and I've been told that many dog's follicles get
irritated with the rough way we owners often scrub at them. So maybe
the fault doesn't lie with the diet, maybe it's just grooming techniques.

Oh yea, and Grover's coat is gorgeous the rest of the time, like brand
new patent leather. So I'm pretty sure she'd be better off never
getting baths, but I for some reason really enjoy bathing dogs, so too
bad for her.

-Tammy & Grover

Messages in this topic (6)
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16. [raw feeding] How expired is expired
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 2:43 pm ((PDT))

Well, my freecycle ad worked - I have response from someone that has
meat from '05 and '06 - of course I know '06 would be alright...but
from '05??? Can dogs handle that kinda stuff?

--
Brandi
Bartlesville, Ok
www.obediencetrainingclubofbartlesville.com

Messages in this topic (1)
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17. mange...
Posted by: "LaUrA" laurasue17@hotmail.com angel_2_u_23
Date: Tue Oct 2, 2007 2:45 pm ((PDT))

*** Mod Note: please no monster sig lines--this sig trimmed for you ***

So I am questioning things and I am unsure of myself now...(both of our dogs are raw fed dogs)...please tell me otherwise...about a month ago Zoey (8 month old pit mix) was diagnosed with Demodex mange. The vet gave the Ivamectin or something. I gave it to her like I was supposed to and it still hasn't gone away. I think Snoopy has it now. All I know is that they both itch like crazy. I thought they were supposed to be healthier being on a raw diet? Seems like we are about to run into the vicious cycle of visiting the vet again. Any suggestions? They are both really itchy. Both of them have little bald spots. It's not fleas. You know, it just really bothers me when my babys are sick or not feeling well, know what I mean? We go for another skin scrape in about an hour tonight. I know she still has the mange, the bald spots aren't going away and she is still itching like crazy. All the remedies I look up online seems like mmmm...poisons to put on or in them. That doesn't go along with the "natural" raw diet. (Although the Ivermectin probably doesn't either...) I don't know. I am just at loss and don't know anyone else personally, aside from groups that raw feeds.

Messages in this topic (1)
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