Feed Pets Raw Food: Sep 26, 2007

Wednesday, September 26, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12079

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Pancreatitis
From: Sandee Lee
1b. Pancreatitis
From: Monica

2a. Re: Link between high protein diets and "hyper" behavior?
From: woofwoofgrrl
2b. Re: Link between high protein diets and "hyper" behavior?
From: girlndocs
2c. Re: Link between high protein diets and "hyper" behavior?
From: themilochs

3a. Re: A week in and need help
From: Renate
3b. Re: A week in and need help
From: Laura Atkinson
3c. Re: A week in and need help
From: Dawn Taylor
3d. Re: A week in and need help
From: Renate
3e. Re: A week in and need help
From: Dawn Taylor

4a. Re: Outdated Meat
From: Penny (Nickles) Parker
4b. Re: Outdated Meat
From: Marjorie Trebino

5a. Re: Supplement Question...again
From: T Smith

6a. Re: new to RAW, but my English Mastiff is loving it
From: jerseykev@aol.com
6b. Re: new to RAW, but my English Mastiff is loving it
From: T Smith

7a. Re: 4 dogs starting
From: delcaste
7b. Re: 4 dogs starting
From: Francine-Texas
7c. Re: 4 dogs starting
From: T Smith
7d. Re: 4 dogs starting
From: T Smith
7e. Re: 4 dogs starting
From: Laurie Swanson
7f. Re: 4 dogs starting
From: Laurie Swanson

8. puking pets
From: rawnewfie

9.1. Re: New to Raw
From: Laurie Swanson

10. Link between high protein diets and "hyper" behavior?
From: Tracy Meal

11a. Re: New to the group/questions
From: T Smith

Messages
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1a. Re: Pancreatitis
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:50 pm ((PDT))

I'm not certain what is going on...but unless the grass had recently been
treated with insecticides, that wouldn't be a problem. I do not think this
has a thing to do with diet. Rimadyl does have pancreatitis and elevation of
some of the pancreatic enzymes listed as adverse effects, but from a month
ago, I don't know. What were his symptoms and do you have the results of
the blood work???

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: <DPM333@aol.com>

> Over a month ago he had some blood in his stool & the vet gave him 75mg of
Rimadyl & 250mg of Amoxitab.? It cleared everything up just fine & I even
quit the meds 1/2 way threw.? I do not give him heartworm pills, & I only
let the vet give him his puppy shots up to 4 months.? He does eat grass, but
come on he's a dog & a bull terrier at that, he eats everything.? He was at
a new dog park the other day & also had his 1st bee sting.? Could it be from
too much organ in his diet?? Could it be stress??? Thanks Derek

Messages in this topic (23)
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1b. Pancreatitis
Posted by: "Monica" mommyof2gals@comcast.net mommyof2gals
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:13 pm ((PDT))

My Kees, Loki, came down with Pancreatitis last April. We've raw fed him
since he was 4mths old (he's now 4yrs).

We stopped the vomiting by fasting him for 48 hrs and only giving him tiny
bits of water - basically ice cubes in a dish -during that time. Then very
slowly reintroduced small bits of skinless chicken breast with some canned
pumpkin (to control his BM's) several times each day for the next 3 or 4
days.

After that, we reintroduced chicken quarters but I took off most of the skin
and he ate that for several weeks. I've since reintroduced pork successfully
and gizzards. I have not tried organ meat yet.

It seems to be fat that can trigger it. So go slowly and if you see any
signs of it reoccurring, drop the fatty food from the diet or greatly reduce
it. I've since given several chicken quarters with only the excess skin
removed but left the majority of it with no problems so its an ongoing
process.

Good luck!
Monica, Loki, Tyr, Tizzy and 3 ornary cats

Messages in this topic (23)
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2a. Re: Link between high protein diets and "hyper" behavior?
Posted by: "woofwoofgrrl" cmc4lists1@gastrounit.com woofwoofgrrl
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:08 pm ((PDT))

I would guess that it's probably more of a link between the
carbohydrates and inappropriate ingredients in kibble that are more
likely to make a dog hyper, not the protein content.

Christine

dogladyme wrote:
>
>
> Hi all- I'm currently taking an obedience class with my 6 m/o male GSD.
> There are 6 other dogs in the class including a spitz and an aussie,
> who bark and carry on for almost the whole hour of class, pretty much
> totally distracted the whole time.
>
> The instructor- who I feel handles all these dogs very well and teaches
> with a clicker and only positive strategies- encouraged these owners-
> who are all feeding kibble- to switch to some other food with a lower
> percentage of protein. She knows that I feed my guy raw and as she was
> making this suggestion to these other owners, looked at me and my guy,
> who was calmly lying on the floor in the midst of all this chaos, and
> was very perplexed because he ONLY gets protein.
>
> Can anyone comment on this idea that high protein diets may make some
> dogs "hyper"?
>
> Thanks! Mary
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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2b. Re: Link between high protein diets and "hyper" behavior?
Posted by: "girlndocs" girlndocs@hotmail.com girlndocs
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:08 pm ((PDT))

Don't forget water -- raw food is much higher in water content than
kibble, and water isn't protein either.

Kristin

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laura Atkinson" <llatkinson@...>
wrote:
> A chicken breast is, what, 18% protein? There's some fat in it,
> that's not protein, some bone with vitamins and minerals, that's not
> protein.

Messages in this topic (5)
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2c. Re: Link between high protein diets and "hyper" behavior?
Posted by: "themilochs" themilochs@yahoo.com themilochs
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:37 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "dogladyme" <ooblab@...> wrote:

> Can anyone comment on this idea that high protein diets may make some
> dogs "hyper"?

**** Sure... it's silly! Did she mention any other toxins?
Environmental, doctor/vet recommended, nutritional or otherwise? I
think there are many factors that lead to neurological damage, which
create hyper animals - or animals that manifest that damage by some
other symptom. In humans, I now firmly believe it to be over-
vaccination, generations of toxic abuse and nutritional deficiency.
Your species appropriately fed pup is proof!

Jamie M.

Messages in this topic (5)
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3a. Re: A week in and need help
Posted by: "Renate" renate.tideswell@gmail.com tideswell_renate
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:08 pm ((PDT))

Thank you, Dawn. It does help. Bella had no problem chowing down on
whatever I gave her and fought to keep it. So obviously her attitude
towards kibble and her attitude to raw are totally different. Cause with
kibble, it was 'take it or leave it, who cares...'
Renate

On 9/26/07, Dawn Taylor <dawnmarie1968@tx.rr.com> wrote:
>
> " Anyway I've been giving all of them a leg
> quarter a day. I think that's right for the poodle, but I now think it's
> about twice as much as I should be feeding the tzus. So today I gave them
> a
> leg about .1kg each, but they seem very hungry and keep trying to lead me
> to
> the expens where I feed them. Am I going insane?"
>
> I think it's probably too much for the tzus. I have two little dogs, one
> 10 pounds (about right for her) and one that's 14, but should be about 10.
> I'm feeding about 4 ounces a day, plus .5 oz organs each day. It's HARD to
> feed this small of an amount because the portions are so, so small. If
> there's a bone, the portion will be over the daily allowance so I have to be
> flexible over the course of a week.
>
> My 14 pounder was actually gaining weight on 6 ounces a day! If I fed him
> a chicken quarter, he'd probably get the squirts. Penny too.
>
> Hope this helps a little...
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> Dawn Taylor
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

--
Renate
'The more I learn about men, the more I love my Shih Tzu'

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
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3b. Re: A week in and need help
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:16 pm ((PDT))

Well, yeah. You put a pile o' brussel sprouts and lima beans on my
plate and put chocolate cake on the other, guess which plate I'll take
you to the floor over <grin>

On 9/26/07, Renate <renate.tideswell@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thank you, Dawn. It does help. Bella had no problem chowing down on
> whatever I gave her and fought to keep it. So obviously her attitude
> towards kibble and her attitude to raw are totally different. Cause with
> kibble, it was 'take it or leave it, who cares...'
> Renate

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so.
Bertrand Russell

Messages in this topic (7)
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3c. Re: A week in and need help
Posted by: "Dawn Taylor" dawnmarie1968@tx.rr.com dawnt91
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:12 pm ((PDT))

That's exactly what Penny does too. On the few days I have to feed kibble, she basically walks away. With anything raw, she'll defend it to the death!
--------------------------------------------------

Dawn Taylor

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Messages in this topic (7)
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3d. Re: A week in and need help
Posted by: "Renate" renate.tideswell@gmail.com tideswell_renate
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:13 pm ((PDT))

Bella is now downstairs, has dragged out her old kibble food dishes and is
scratching like crazy. She's acting like she's starving. Maybe I should
feed her a bit more tomorrow. But not as much as I did yesterday
Renate

On 9/26/07, Renate <renate.tideswell@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I've been feeding my 3 (28lb poodle/border collie, and 2 shih tzus, one
> just under 10lbs, one just over) for just over a week. The poodle seems to
> be doing great and all 3 are loving it, nothing like watching the tzus tear
> into their chicken. But it the same story, the runny poo. One of them
> decided the mat in front of the toilet is a suitable place, well I can
> understand that and it's washable so ok, but the other one is wrecking the
> bedroom carpet and my house is up for sale (yikes!!!) I've been trying to
> figure out the problem and I think I'm just feeding them too much. My
> calculations seem to have all gone to h*ll (stress related - plus I keep
> alternating between lbs and kgs) Anyway I've been giving all of them a leg
> quarter a day. I think that's right for the poodle, but I now think it's
> about twice as much as I should be feeding the tzus. So today I gave them a
> leg about .1kg each, but they seem very hungry and keep trying to lead me to
> the expens where I feed them. Am I going insane?
>
> --
> Renate
> 'The more I learn about men, the more I love my Shih Tzu'

--
Renate
'The more I learn about men, the more I love my Shih Tzu'

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
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3e. Re: A week in and need help
Posted by: "Dawn Taylor" dawnmarie1968@tx.rr.com dawnt91
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:57 pm ((PDT))

"Bella is now downstairs, has dragged out her old kibble food dishes and is
scratching like crazy. She's acting like she's starving. Maybe I should
feed her a bit more tomorrow. But not as much as I did yesterday
Renate"

How long did it take to eat her dinner, and how much did you give her? A chicken leg? I've noticed if I feed something really easy to eat where they wolf it down, they're not satisfied. But if I feed something that takes longer, even though it's the same amount, they're happy when they're done. Chicken legs tend to take my little dogs a while, and they're satisfied with that. In fact, a chicken leg is a whole day's worth of food. Maybe she's so used to feeling full that she's thinking she's starving. You know she's not though...

I know its hard when they're small and their portions are little. It just seems like not enough food!

--------------------------------------------------

Dawn Taylor

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Messages in this topic (7)
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4a. Re: Outdated Meat
Posted by: "Penny (Nickles) Parker" loverladymaggiemae@yahoo.com loverladymaggiemae
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:09 pm ((PDT))

Andrea,
Sometimes if it weren't for outdated meat,our budget would be severely
strained. Outdated meat, especially if it has been frozen, is just
fine. Just think. Most dogs like to bury stuff and then dig it up and
eat it several days later.......yech! But they love it.
Happy feeding!
Penny & The Menagerie
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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4b. Re: Outdated Meat
Posted by: "Marjorie Trebino" mtrebino39@hotmail.com marjoriettt
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:13 pm ((PDT))

Andrea, I am fairly new to raw feeding but have figured out that the meat
is ok. It might loose a little of the value just like produce looses some
of its viatamins as it sits but my dogs are doing well so far. I just
bought a bunch of pork loin and beef chunks that were out dated. Lucky you
to have a ready source. Margie

>From: "tobyfogle" <eafog@msn.com>
>Reply-To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
>To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [rawfeeding] Outdated Meat
>Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 19:35:39 -0000
>
>Hello all. I'm looking for some advice on buying outdated meat. I've
>had a local supplier offer me some bargains on chicken that has expired
>in his freezer. At first I was somewhat offended....I wouldn't feed my
>kids outdated meat. But then I started wondering if it matters. Do
>any of you have any experience with this? What do you think? Thanks
>so much for your help. Andrea
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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5a. Re: Supplement Question...again
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:07 pm ((PDT))

Why do people have to supplement when feeding k****le? Obviously k****le
lacks in many departments.....
I mean how are we assured that feeding this cr*p is really giving them
nutrition when they are recalling it all...
These batches are made in HUGE bulk; how can it be guaranteed that the food
is equalized? It can't be.
These are the things I have been battling with before I have decided to
start the raw.
Raw does have alot of nutrition naturally....
As far as supplementing... dogs don't need supplements UNLESS a specialist
is recommending it. Like our dog's opthomologist recommends some for
specific eye issues & the dermatologist for specific skin issues, otherwise
the dogs should be fine on raw & natural diets.
Yes, I am NEW to raw (1 day now for 2 of my 9 dogs).
Starting tonight I am adding 2 more since i can no longer deal with Casper's
runny poop from k****le!! He's had it since i brought him home as a little
pup. ALL three pups have!! They are just too sensitive to k***le. Whisper
was fine when she was fed boiled chicken for a month & medicated when i
brought her home but they've never had solid stools.
Eeee-Gads..... I was at the park today and when Casper (130+ lb 7 month old
Dane pup) decides to poop & I can't even scoop it, I just decided he is
going raw now too! WHAT CAN IT HURT!? He's already battling this
runny/soft stool now for over 4 months!
Trina
--
Chip (deaf Dalmatian)
Casper (deaf Great Dane)
Whisper (deaf Great Dane)
Louie (hearing Great Dane)
Joey (deaf & blind Lhasa Apso)
Amy (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Cassandra (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Mr Paris (Lhasa Apso)
Chloe (deaf & blind Spaniel mix)

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Messages in this topic (6)
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6a. Re: new to RAW, but my English Mastiff is loving it
Posted by: "jerseykev@aol.com" jerseykev@aol.com noblarneyzone
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:13 pm ((PDT))

I started her off slowly. as a treat I gave her a chicken thigh. I
continued her regular feeding program.

I waited till I saw a stool sample, when that looked good, 2 days later. I
replaced the last feeding of the day with another chicken thigh.

Than 2 meals a day I was feeding her 4 times a day. I noticed her at night
looking heavier than I like, but I ignored it till I got her out in the
morning for exercise - She looked great while running, and when stacked. I always
like to see a little rib cage, towards the rear end of her body, never all
of them. After all she is growing.

As her raw increased and chicken thighs were stable I added turkey legs,
only because I was more comfortable with the size of the bone in the turkey
compared to the chicken.

Now she is only getting dry food - 1 cup in the morning with raw eggs, and
she leaves at least 1/2 cup behind, but all the egg is gone.

Now almost a month later she is doing great, looking great and I am very
happy with the transistion.

I have some videos on raw feeding coming online at my site
_www.guardiansbythesea.com_ (http://www.guardiansbythesea.com)

Kevin
The Jersey Shore

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

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Messages in this topic (8)
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6b. Re: new to RAW, but my English Mastiff is loving it
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:11 pm ((PDT))

dry food? You are feeding kibble with raw?
I'm confused.
Trina

On 9/26/07, jerseykev@aol.com <jerseykev@aol.com> wrote:
>
> I<< snip>>
> Now she is only getting dry food - 1 cup in the morning with raw eggs, and
>
> she leaves at least 1/2 cup behind, but all the egg is gone.
>
> Now almost a month later she is doing great, looking great and I am very
> happy with the transistion.
>
> I have some videos on raw feeding coming online at my site
> _www.guardiansbythesea.com_ (http://www.guardiansbythesea.com)
>
> Kevin
> The Jersey Shore
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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7a. Re: 4 dogs starting
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:13 pm ((PDT))

Hi Francine. I have four dogs and all get fed separately. Two in the
yard (it's partitioned) and the other two in the garage. The garage
dogs take turns eating because one of them is a terror (and a thief).

Silvina

Messages in this topic (10)
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7b. Re: 4 dogs starting
Posted by: "Francine-Texas" francie43@sbcglobal.net fcampinose
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:41 pm ((PDT))

Thanks Silvina I would just hate to give them raw chicken in the house
(smile) I guess I could take turns in the yard.
Francine

-------Original Message-------

From: delcaste
Date: 9/26/2007 7:13:40 PM
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: 4 dogs starting

Hi Francine. I have four dogs and all get fed separately. Two in the
yard (it's partitioned) and the other two in the garage. The garage
dogs take turns eating because one of them is a terror (and a thief).

Silvina

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Messages in this topic (10)
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7c. Re: 4 dogs starting
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:10 pm ((PDT))

We have too much rain here, outside feeding isn't an option for us.
Buying 800 size crates is financially out of the question at this time!
I'm stumped.
Trina

On 9/26/07, Francine-Texas <francie43@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> Thanks Silvina I would just hate to give them raw chicken in the house
> (smile) I guess I could take turns in the yard.
> Francine
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (10)
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7d. Re: 4 dogs starting
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:10 pm ((PDT))

I'm having the same problems but i never free fed the dogs i have now!
Unfortunately, they are dragging the chicken around & I have a 2 year old
son. I can't mop every single day my whole house...... I need to be
realistic here.
Trina

On 9/26/07, Francine-Texas <francie43@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> I want to start my 4 large dogs on raw but how do I separate the food.
> Do I
> need to feed one at a time if I put one in front of one or the other and
> one
> dose not eat someone else might grab it now I just leave dry kibble down
> all
> the time no food issues at all.
> Thank you
> Francine
> __
>

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Messages in this topic (10)
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7e. Re: 4 dogs starting
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:26 pm ((PDT))

It's very easy to teach them to eat on a towel/blanket/vinyl
tablecloth/shower curtain. Put the food on the towel, and if the dog
removes it, pick it up and put it back on. They get the idea pretty
fast as to what you want and that they can eat in peace if they keep it
there.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:
!
> Unfortunately, they are dragging the chicken around & I have a 2 year
old
> son.

Messages in this topic (10)
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7f. Re: 4 dogs starting
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:27 pm ((PDT))

Alternate feeding times, put them in different rooms with doors shut or
with baby gates, or train them to each eat on their own towels.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:
>
> We have too much rain here, outside feeding isn't an option for us.
> Buying 800 size crates is financially out of the question at this
time!
> I'm stumped.

Messages in this topic (10)
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8. puking pets
Posted by: "rawnewfie" rawnewfie@yahoo.com rawnewfie
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:40 pm ((PDT))

Maybe some of the longer term members will know. Has any one ever posted some serious
disaster as a result of raw feeding on this group? Any dogs choked to death or been
eviscerated by shards of bone. I have been feeding raw for about a week. It is total trial and
error, she won't eat chicken, it tentative about turkey necks, loves beef and pork. My old
retriever is starting to throw up, but poops have been firm. This is really hardest on her
worried parents I think.
Thanks,
Todd

Messages in this topic (1)
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9.1. Re: New to Raw
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:10 pm ((PDT))

HI Alicia,

I don't have time right now to respond to everything in your post, but
just wanted to mention that we don't talk about beef an awful lot
because most of the bones are inedible (tooth wreckers--too
dense/hard). So there's just not a lot to talk about. But I got a
good deal on some grass-fed boneless beef and am feeding through about
80 lbs. of it, adding in or alternating w/pork or lamb necks, or ribs,
etc. You can also feed it on the bone (That would be better, I think--
great for ripping/tearing) and just remove the bones when they're
cleaned off so they don't wear/break teeth. Some dogs can eat beef
neck and rib bones. Depends on the size of your dogs and the health of
their mouths.

As to whether a diet primarily composed of beef is ideal...well, you
would have to add in a source of edible bone. Mostly beef would be
better than mostly chicken (more species-appropriate)! Beef might be a
bit fatty. But if it's grass-fed, they have better fat profiles than
grain-fed, so that might make it a-ok. Just think about what a wild
wolf would eat and get as close to that as possible--remembering how
much better whatever you're doing is than kibble (light years!)!

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "aliciamyan" <alicia_larson@...>
wrote:
My other question is – where's the beef? I see
> mention of chicken, pork and such, but not too many specifics about
> beef? We also raise our own beef cattle and will have access to
> plenty of beef in the future and hope to eventually have their diet
> be primarily beef – does that sound feasible and healthy?
>
>

Messages in this topic (28)
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10. Link between high protein diets and "hyper" behavior?
Posted by: "Tracy Meal" hiddenpoetinme1@yahoo.com hiddenpoetinme1
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:26 pm ((PDT))

HI Mary,

You wrote:
She knows that I feed my guy raw and as she was
making this suggestion to these other owners, looked at me and my guy,
who was calmly lying on the floor in the midst of all this chaos, and
was very perplexed because he ONLY gets protein.

Can anyone comment on this idea that high protein diets may make some
dogs "hyper"?

I have had the same experience at puppy class. My rottie pup was fairly calm and laying on the floor while some of the other dogs were a little "loopy". She was the only raw fed dog in the group.

I think it is the carbs in a kibble diet that makes them that way....

Tracy

---------------------------------
Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.

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11a. Re: New to the group/questions
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:30 pm ((PDT))

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am still freaking out & confused but don't know why I am :-)
Trina

On 9/26/07, ncrnrgrl <jcraver1@nc.rr.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> Is everyone always a wreck when they get started?!
>
> Jenny
> _
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12078

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: New to the group/questions
From: Giselle
1b. Re: New to the group/questions
From: ncrnrgrl
1c. Re: New to the group/questions
From: Morledzep@aol.com
1d. Re: New to the group/questions
From: Morledzep@aol.com

2a. Re: Pet Tabs Plus/Vitamin A
From: Giselle

3a. Re: new to RAW, but my English Mastiff is loving it
From: girlndocs

4a. Re: Supplement Question...again
From: one_sojourner_one
4b. Re: Supplement Question...again
From: ginny wilken
4c. Re: Supplement Question...again
From: nlhp4

5a. Re: FYI for newbies - elimination odors
From: Kevin Brown

6a. Pancreatitis
From: Val Kilmer
6b. Re: Pancreatitis
From: Sandee Lee
6c. Re: Pancreatitis
From: DPM333@aol.com

7.1. Re: Feeding Heads
From: Geri

8a. Re: 4 dogs starting
From: carolejc2007
8b. Re: 4 dogs starting
From: Tina Berry

9a. Outdated Meat
From: tobyfogle
9b. Re: Outdated Meat
From: Shannon Parker

10a. Re: feeding fish and smaller bones
From: Morledzep@aol.com

11a. Re: Chicken allergy?
From: elkf15h

12a. A week in and need help
From: Renate
12b. Re: A week in and need help
From: Dawn Taylor

13.1. New to Raw
From: aliciamyan

14a. Link between high protein diets and "hyper" behavior?
From: dogladyme
14b. Re: Link between high protein diets and "hyper" behavior?
From: Laura Atkinson

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: New to the group/questions
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:57 am ((PDT))

Hi, Jenny!
Welcome to the raw side!

No veggies, no grains, no fruits. Not necessary. This list supports
and promotes the feeding of a species appropriate raw whole prey model.

Chicken backs, and necks are pretty bony. Chicken necks, without being
attached to the whole chicken, may be a recipe for a choking hazard,
unless your dog is a careful chewer.

Dogs need approximately 80% meat (muscle, skin, fur, fat, connective
tissue)
only about 10% EDIBLE bone
10% organs (5% liver, 5% 'other')

Here are my recommendations to start feeding raw;
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374

post # 141374
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Just joined the group - and have a few questions.
>
> I am new-ish to raw feeding,
<snip>
> I am feeding predominantly a mixture of chicken backs/necks and
turkey necks - that so far is what I have local/easy access too - when
I need to I can get (with a little advance planning) rabbit, duck,
beef etc.
>
> I was told to try leg quarters for meatier meals - I think what I'm
unclear on is how much "meat" I need to be feeding?
>
> Additionally; I'm a little confused by amount of vegetables I should
be feeding,
<snip>
> Any help would be appreciated - thanks in advance.
>
> Jenny C
> Raleigh, NC
> Alcohol doesn't solve any problems, but then again, neither does milk.

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: New to the group/questions
Posted by: "ncrnrgrl" jcraver1@nc.rr.com ncrnrgrl
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:09 am ((PDT))

***EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

Thanks guys.
A follow-up dumb question.. I've never fed my dogs just meat - like
ground beef/chicken/pork, unless it's been ground with the bone in
it - you apparently do this ?

My youngster (7months) loves the leg quarters, my old guy had a bit
of a hard time with them, I think it's because his teeth are worn
down a bit., he got through it for sure, just took him longer.

Thanks for clearing up the vegetable question. My old dog has always
had a thing for pumpkins - like the WHOLE pumpkin, and NO, no
diarrhea. :) He just likes them, and I've always assumed that was
okay - glad to know I dont' need to worry about doing more.

Is everyone always a wreck when they get started?!

Jenny

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: New to the group/questions
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:05 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/26/2007 3:01:11 AM Pacific Standard Time,
jcraver1@nc.rr.com writes:

I was told to try leg quarters for meatier meals - I think what I'm unclear
on is how much "meat" I need to be feeding?

Additionally; I'm a little confused by amount of vegetables I should be
feeding, some sources say no more than 1x week, others are telling me every day!
Every day doesn't make sense to me, but I realize I don't know much!! :)

Jenny,

you need to be feeding far more meat.. edible bones are an important part of
the overall diet, but a VERY small part (10%). Veggies aren't a part of the
diet at all, remember you're feeding CARNIVORES..

Your basic average prey animal breaks down in approximately 10% edible bone,
10% organs and 80% everything else (meat, fat, skin, meat, connective tissue..
).

the best thing for folks new to the list to do is read all the welcome
emails, and search the archives. ALL of your questions have been asked and answered
before..

Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

1d. Re: New to the group/questions
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:14 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/26/2007 9:09:29 AM Pacific Standard Time,
jcraver1@nc.rr.com writes:

A follow-up dumb question.. I've never fed my dogs just meat - like
ground beef/chicken/pork, unless it's been ground with the bone in
it - you apparently do this ?

Jenny,

Yep.. we were all wrecks when we started. i cringed for the first two days
listening to the dogs crunch on bones..

i personally do NOT feed ground meat to the dogs. when they eat boneless
meats they eat hunks of meat that they have to work to tear and swallow. there
are no easy meals here, all are a workout of one kind or another.

Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Pet Tabs Plus/Vitamin A
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:03 am ((PDT))

Hi, Renee!
KEWL!

I think Mr. H deserves a treat! Maybe his fav dinner?

Keep him guessing..... ^_^

TC
Giselle

> //Why not clue him in to the O6 / O3 story, and encourage him to give
> them Salmon or Fish Body oil supps?//
>
> ***Thanks Giselle; we already supplement with Grizzly SO. Mr. Husband
> gave up on the vitamins notion, surprisingly, with no struggle
> whatsoever. He said, "yeah, I don't think they really need vitamins
> anyways." ??? What can I say...
> -Renee W.
>

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: new to RAW, but my English Mastiff is loving it
Posted by: "girlndocs" girlndocs@hotmail.com girlndocs
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:09 am ((PDT))

Hi Trina,

> What about weight? How do you montior their food amount & weight
> level. I am afraid mine will lose weight!

One of the things I was most anxious about when I began feeding Zoe
raw was how I would know if I was feeding her the right amount and
whether she was maintaining weight well. I soon realized that it was
the easiest thing in the world.

She came to me a tad pudgy and lost quite a bit of it very quickly
(could have had something to do with turning her nose up at her new
food for a few days, no?) and when it looked to me like she was
starting to lose very fast/get slimmer than I was comfortable with ...
I added more food to her meals.

That's it. That's all. An additional quarter-pound or so of food per
day (or the equivalent, averaged out over a week: that mackerel is
kind of small, but tomorrow's lamb chops are bigger than usual)
stopped the weight loss and she is now maintaining nicely at a weight
I like. She's looking lean and more muscular.

If they lose weight, feed them more. They'll gain it back.

Kristin

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: Supplement Question...again
Posted by: "one_sojourner_one" onesojourner@gmail.com one_sojourner_one
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:10 am ((PDT))

I have a few questions about the what would the wolf eat argument.
Lets take human nutrition for example. Lets look at humans a few
thousand years ago when we were living in tents and caves. Was our
diet ideal? I don't think so. We had no incite at all when it came to
a healthy diet. We ate what we had to survive. I am not saying we eat
healthier now but we have the knowledge to eat healthier. I would
assume wolves eat about like our ancestors in regards to eating what
you can to survive.

peter

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: Supplement Question...again
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:56 am ((PDT))

On Sep 26, 2007, at 7:46 AM, nlhp4 wrote:

> For various reasons, I am starting to doubt that they are getting the
> proper nutrition and thus started to do a bit of research on
> supplements.
..........
> I just want to be sure the two are REALLY getting enough of what is
> reccommended for proper health and growth (lab mix is still growing
> like a weed!) without supplements if at all possible.
>

And what would be those reasons? And why would you believe the USDA
on anything? Facts is fine, recommendations are not always based on
facts.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

4c. Re: Supplement Question...again
Posted by: "nlhp4" nlhp4@yahoo.com nlhp4
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:29 am ((PDT))

> And what would be those reasons?

Veterinary recommendation for a Holistic vet.

>And why would you believe the USDA
> on anything?

Take a look for yourself, looks pretty valid to me...

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

>Facts is fine, recommendations are not always based on
> facts.

All too true, but I am still trying to do the proper research before
deciding I am already doing the right thing by not supplementing with
the raw feeding.

-Sibyl

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: FYI for newbies - elimination odors
Posted by: "Kevin Brown" jerseykev@aol.com noblarneyzone
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:29 am ((PDT))

This purely based on my practical application and experience.
I purposefully have a spot where I trained my mastiff (4 1/2 months)
that it is okay for her to eliminate. Most times she is outside, but
I like having at least one sample to observe daily. I have a big
enough place to where this is not a nuisance.

I clean it quickly and disenfect the area, however to leave some of
the scent so she can locate it and not expand that territory. So I
do have some "frangrance of Babbe'" linger.

I bought some very nice jarred candles. Big ones, and I burn them.
I particularly like "The Apple Pie"

When people com ein the first thing they say is, "You baking?" Where
as they caould have said; "You have a dog?"

Kevin & Baby
The Jersey Shore
www.guardiansbythesea.com

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "steph.sorensen"
<steph.sorensen@...> wrote:
>
> Okay, I guess I wrote too soon! Here I am, talking about how
> frustrated I am with Scarlet's midnight poop puddles, when I think
> the answer to my problem is really investing in a dog door so the
> poop at least leaves the building! My whole house smells like poop
> right now, and it's horrible!! And this was after a chicken meal!
> They usually have hard, yellowish poops after chicken, but not
> Scarlet lately. Her leaving puddles of poo by my back door in our
> basement is getting old really fast. *sigh*
>
> Steph
> Scarlet, Lucy and Minkey (the kitty)
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "girlndocs" <girlndocs@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Giselle,
> >
> > > A post from someone like you who has recently worked through
these
> > > distressful episodes must be a lot more reassuring than a ton
of
> us
> > > long time raw feeders, who say "Its just loose poops, it'll be
> fine,
> > > really." ^_^
> >
> > Well then on that note, I'll chime in to say that Zoe's recent
loose
> > stools cleared up too, without me doing anything but switching her
> > back to chicken for a day.
> >
> > And they were kind of alarming hershey squirts, too, the sudden,
> > squat-in-the-middle-of-the-street, "Hey mom, what's going on with
my
> > butt?" kind.
> >
> > It's just loose poops, it'll be fine, really :P
> >
> > Kristin
> >
>

Messages in this topic (7)
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________________________________________________________________________

6a. Pancreatitis
Posted by: "Val Kilmer" DPM333@aol.com dferris23
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:29 am ((PDT))

My 7 month old Bull Terrier that has ben on RAW since 8 weeks old & is
at the vet with Pancreatitis today. Any info, causes, concerns, that I
should know about? My vet doesn't care either way of what I feed my
dog so he's not one of those vets.
I feel I try to stick to the ratio of meats, bones, organs,
etc... But I don't measure & weight everything. I look at him & his
poop. I believe in the raw diet.
Any info comfort reassuring would be great! Thanks Derek @ Chicago

Messages in this topic (21)
________________________________________________________________________

6b. Re: Pancreatitis
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:01 pm ((PDT))

Hi Derek,

There are various causes of pancreatitis.....vaccinations, insecticides
(lawn chemicals, etc), certain drugs and diseases such as diabetes,
Cushing's, hypothyroidism. Has he been exposed to anything you know of
recently or been vaccinated or treated with any meds???

I am quite certain your diet had nothing to do with this.

Hope the little guy is ok!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Val Kilmer" <DPM333@aol.com>

Messages in this topic (21)
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6c. Re: Pancreatitis
Posted by: "DPM333@aol.com" DPM333@aol.com dferris23
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:01 pm ((PDT))

Over a month ago he had some blood in his stool & the vet gave him 75mg of Rimadyl & 250mg of Amoxitab.? It cleared everything up just fine & I even quit the meds 1/2 way threw.? I do not give him heartworm pills, & I only let the vet give him his puppy shots up to 4 months.? He does eat grass, but come on he's a dog & a bull terrier at that, he eats everything.? He was at a new dog park the other day & also had his 1st bee sting.? Could it be from too much organ in his diet?? Could it be stress??? Thanks Derek

-----Original Message-----
From: Sandee Lee <rlee@plix.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 4:01 pm
Subject: Re: [rawfeeding] Pancreatitis

Hi Derek,

I am quite certain your diet had nothing to do with this.

Hope the little guy is ok!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Val Kilmer" <DPM333@aol.com>

________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (21)
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7.1. Re: Feeding Heads
Posted by: "Geri" auntigeri@aol.com gericolloton
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:30 am ((PDT))

"T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:
>
> I am beginning to think raw might not be for me.
> I cannot feed heads like this. It's just NOT something I can do.

***
I don't feed heads either. I decided pretty early on that I wasn't
feeding heads.

Feeding my dog a wild squirrel that runs
> along my fence chattering away.... no, that's definitely out of the
picture.

***

I don't feed my dogs squirrels either. I think there is plenty of
other stuff to feed so you don't have to feed these things.

Geri

Messages in this topic (37)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Re: 4 dogs starting
Posted by: "carolejc2007" mooska2me@sbcglobal.net carolejc2007
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:16 pm ((PDT))

I also have 4 dogs (2 Greyhounds and 2 Italian Greys) I feed my two
big ones first (they eat faster than the little ones do) and then
feed the little ones. The reason I do this is because my one big
girl will steal food from the little ones when I'm not looking.
This is just what works for me. I'm new to raw also and so far I am
loving it. I had one little draw back over the weekend (something
stupid I did) but got that corrected and everyting is going Greyt!
I've been feeding just chicken so far but I'm going to introduce a
little bit of beefy rib bones with their chicken dinner tonight.

Carole

>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Francine-Texas" <francie43@>
> wrote:
> >
> > I want to start my 4 large dogs on raw but how do I separate the
> > food.
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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8b. Re: 4 dogs starting
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:42 pm ((PDT))

"now I just leave dry kibble down all the time no food issues at all."

I feed mine all together, about 10 feet apart in the kitching/dining - I
have four gsds. But they all finish whatever I give them, ie: half a
chicken, at the same time so no guarding issues. Once in a great while one
will finish first and get growled away from one of the others, but that's
all that happens.

You will find better respect from your dogs by not leaving down food all
day. Mainly because you, the alpha, control the food. So I have my bunch
all sit before I put their meals down, the two adults get their's first at
the same time then the two pups at the same time (18 mo old). That's what I
do anyway, just fyi.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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9a. Outdated Meat
Posted by: "tobyfogle" eafog@msn.com tobyfogle
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:42 pm ((PDT))

Hello all. I'm looking for some advice on buying outdated meat. I've
had a local supplier offer me some bargains on chicken that has expired
in his freezer. At first I was somewhat offended....I wouldn't feed my
kids outdated meat. But then I started wondering if it matters. Do
any of you have any experience with this? What do you think? Thanks
so much for your help. Andrea

Messages in this topic (2)
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9b. Re: Outdated Meat
Posted by: "Shannon Parker" mrbatisse@yahoo.ca mrbatisse
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:03 pm ((PDT))

Hi Andrea,

Buy it and feed it...only advice I have to give. If your dog won't eat it, then throw it out. I feed my dogs stuff that makes my stomach turn sometimes...they love it and have NEVER had a problem.

Lucky you!

Shannon

tobyfogle <eafog@msn.com> wrote:
Hello all. I'm looking for some advice on buying outdated meat. I've
had a local supplier offer me some bargains on chicken that has expired
in his freezer.

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Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. Re: feeding fish and smaller bones
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:57 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/26/2007 1:30:38 AM Pacific Standard Time,
coldbeach@gmail.com writes:

How much food is 9 cups of k***le = to lbs of meat with bone?
OK, I'm REALLY stressing about this. All your fault Maggie :-)

Trina,

Kibble does NOT equal Raw food in any way.. there is no correlation between
the amount of kibble you previously fed and the amount of raw food your dogs
will need.

the general starting guideline is 2 - 3% of your dog's ideal adult weight.
or as close as you can guess..

I think i saw that you're starting your great danes on raw? my great dane
pup gets 3 - 5 lbs depending on the day and what is thawed. if we've skipped a
day between meals it leans more towards the 5 lbs. and if he had a big meal
the day before it leans closer to the 3 lbs..

May i ask why you're only switching the great danes? you have a long list of
dogs in your signature.. don't they all deserve to be healthier and happier?

Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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11a. Re: Chicken allergy?
Posted by: "elkf15h" elke@oakleigh-homeopathy.co.uk elkf15h
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:00 pm ((PDT))

Hi Kelly,

My raw fed 19month old Airedale has developed a nasty hot spot and
general itching. I have stopped feeding him 'petgrade' meat (In UK
abatoirs marked by contamination with petrol and/or other substances)
and only give him human grade meat since Sunday. The itching stopped
almost immediately and the hotspot is clearing very quickly. In
addition he is getting Petroleum in homeopathic potency.
This worked well for us.

Best Wishes
Elke

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Kelly P" <picklesrfree@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> My young dog I believe has hotspots. Since we got her at 3 mos, she
> itches and chews above her tail. At the time, I spotted one flea on
> her and took care of the problem. She's also been raw fed since we
> got her at 3 mos, chicken being the most prominant meat source and
> beef a close second.

>
> Unfortunately, she is still itching and has now created scabs above
> her tail that she ends up re-opening. She's also been scratching at
> her belly button, which is new.
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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________________________________________________________________________

12a. A week in and need help
Posted by: "Renate" renate.tideswell@gmail.com tideswell_renate
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:01 pm ((PDT))

I've been feeding my 3 (28lb poodle/border collie, and 2 shih tzus, one just
under 10lbs, one just over) for just over a week. The poodle seems to be
doing great and all 3 are loving it, nothing like watching the tzus tear
into their chicken. But it the same story, the runny poo. One of them
decided the mat in front of the toilet is a suitable place, well I can
understand that and it's washable so ok, but the other one is wrecking the
bedroom carpet and my house is up for sale (yikes!!!) I've been trying to
figure out the problem and I think I'm just feeding them too much. My
calculations seem to have all gone to h*ll (stress related - plus I keep
alternating between lbs and kgs) Anyway I've been giving all of them a leg
quarter a day. I think that's right for the poodle, but I now think it's
about twice as much as I should be feeding the tzus. So today I gave them a
leg about .1kg each, but they seem very hungry and keep trying to lead me to
the expens where I feed them. Am I going insane?

--
Renate
'The more I learn about men, the more I love my Shih Tzu'

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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12b. Re: A week in and need help
Posted by: "Dawn Taylor" dawnmarie1968@tx.rr.com dawnt91
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:39 pm ((PDT))

" Anyway I've been giving all of them a leg
quarter a day. I think that's right for the poodle, but I now think it's
about twice as much as I should be feeding the tzus. So today I gave them a
leg about .1kg each, but they seem very hungry and keep trying to lead me to
the expens where I feed them. Am I going insane?"

I think it's probably too much for the tzus. I have two little dogs, one 10 pounds (about right for her) and one that's 14, but should be about 10. I'm feeding about 4 ounces a day, plus .5 oz organs each day. It's HARD to feed this small of an amount because the portions are so, so small. If there's a bone, the portion will be over the daily allowance so I have to be flexible over the course of a week.

My 14 pounder was actually gaining weight on 6 ounces a day! If I fed him a chicken quarter, he'd probably get the squirts. Penny too.

Hope this helps a little...
--------------------------------------------------

Dawn Taylor

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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13.1. New to Raw
Posted by: "aliciamyan" alicia_larson@msn.com aliciamyan
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:37 pm ((PDT))

After nearly 3 years of trial and error with kibble, we are going to
give RAW a try. Our eleven year old lab has a steel gut and can eat
anything without a problem. Our nearly 3 year old GSD is another
story – he has skin, gastro and weight issues. This last July, his
stomach flipped and he required emergency surgery. We believe he
found some cat food which caused him to bloat and then flip. We know
he has a sensitive system and we've tried many different dog food
brands/types. The last suggestion from our vet was give him human
acid reflux meds daily – I felt like this like putting a band aid on
a broken arm. Because he is still underweight, they suggested
switching to a higher protein food. The food they recommended caused
hot spots the last time we tried it. The light started to come on –
higher protein? Wouldn't that be meat? Because I know humans can
control many of our health issues with a proper diet, I started to
research our options. By happenstance, I recently met a family with
3 beautiful GSD that look so healthy. In speaking with them, I
learned they feed their dogs a raw diet (they actually feed a bit
more extensive version with veggies and oodles of supplements).
Anyway, I now feel prepared (sorta) to start feeding them a raw
diet. I'm heading out tomorrow to hit as many grocery stores as I
can in search of chicken. I plan on spending the first few months
feeding chicken so the GSD adapts thoroughly before trying something
new.

I do have a couple of questions. I had many more before reading some
of the advice-for-beginners threads – thank you! Since our GSD has
already proven to be sensitive, does anyone have additional advice
for his transition? His poop is usually loose or runny to begin
with, so I am a little concerned about the canon butt possibilities.

What about eggs? We raise our own free-range laying hens and eggs
are plentiful. My other question is – where's the beef? I see
mention of chicken, pork and such, but not too many specifics about
beef? We also raise our own beef cattle and will have access to
plenty of beef in the future and hope to eventually have their diet
be primarily beef – does that sound feasible and healthy?

Thanks in advance for your time!
Alicia

Messages in this topic (27)
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14a. Link between high protein diets and "hyper" behavior?
Posted by: "dogladyme" ooblab@hotmail.com dogladyme
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:39 pm ((PDT))

Hi all- I'm currently taking an obedience class with my 6 m/o male GSD.
There are 6 other dogs in the class including a spitz and an aussie,
who bark and carry on for almost the whole hour of class, pretty much
totally distracted the whole time.

The instructor- who I feel handles all these dogs very well and teaches
with a clicker and only positive strategies- encouraged these owners-
who are all feeding kibble- to switch to some other food with a lower
percentage of protein. She knows that I feed my guy raw and as she was
making this suggestion to these other owners, looked at me and my guy,
who was calmly lying on the floor in the midst of all this chaos, and
was very perplexed because he ONLY gets protein.

Can anyone comment on this idea that high protein diets may make some
dogs "hyper"?

Thanks! Mary

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

14b. Re: Link between high protein diets and "hyper" behavior?
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:43 pm ((PDT))

I would suggest that it is the carbohydrates that contribute to the
behavior. It's like feeding 'em a constant diet of twinkies and
wondering why they're hyper.

And a raw diet is NOT 100% protein. A chicken breast is, what, 18%
protein? There's some fat in it, that's not protein, some bone with
vitamins and minerals, that's not protein. Don't fall for the 100%
protein myth.

On 9/26/07, dogladyme <ooblab@hotmail.com> wrote:

making this suggestion to these other owners, looked at me and my guy,
> who was calmly lying on the floor in the midst of all this chaos, and
> was very perplexed because he ONLY gets protein.
>
> Can anyone comment on this idea that high protein diets may make some
> dogs "hyper"?
>
> Thanks! Mary

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so.
Bertrand Russell

Messages in this topic (2)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12077

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Starting to get a little frustrated here...
From: Stephanie Sorensen
1b. Re: Starting to get a little frustrated here...
From: mgitaville
1c. Re: Starting to get a little frustrated here...
From: carnesbill

2a. Re: new to RAW, but my English Mastiff is loving it
From: mgitaville

3a. Re: Pork as a starter?
From: katkellm
3b. Re: Pork as a starter?
From: carnesbill

4a. Re: New to the group/questions
From: Andrea
4b. Re: New to the group/questions
From: kaylsraven
4c. Re: New to the group/questions
From: carnesbill

5a. Re: feeding fish and smaller bones
From: Andrea
5b. Re: feeding fish and smaller bones
From: Howard Salob
5c. Re: feeding fish and smaller bones
From: Maggie Smith

6a. Re: Going to start!
From: Andrea

7a. Re: Feeding once a day
From: katkellm

8a. Chicken was not a crowd-pleaser!
From: qsgirl916
8b. Re: Chicken was not a crowd-pleaser!
From: Giselle
8c. Re: Chicken was not a crowd-pleaser!
From: Andrea

9a. Re: FYI for newbies
From: kaylsraven

10a. 4 dogs starting
From: Francine-Texas
10b. Re: 4 dogs starting
From: Andrea

11a. Supplement Question...again
From: nlhp4
11b. Re: Supplement Question...again
From: Giselle

12a. Re: Feeding Frozen RAW
From: carnesbill

13. Fw: Texas
From: Francine-Texas

14a. Re: Pet Tabs Plus/Vitamin A
From: brutus_buckley

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Starting to get a little frustrated here...
Posted by: "Stephanie Sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:37 am ((PDT))

I am currently feeding pork shoulders, and this was the first time I cut hunks off of the shoulder and just gave them boneless, but later on in the day, I gave them pork neck bones to chew on, so that should have at least somewhat made up for it, right? As far as variety, they were also getting venison, which they LOVED, but I ran out of that, having a limited supply to begin with.

I fed them each a whole 3lb chicken yesterday morning, and I won't feed again until tomorrow, since they only need about 1.2lbs a day. I also feed them strips of beef heart and a strip of liver every now and then, and they get to eat the organs along with their chicken (but Scarlet eats Lucy's chicken liver because Lucy doesn't like it).

I have a feeling I need to stick to chicken for my husband next week since I will be out of town. They seem to do the best on that.

-Steph
Scarlet, Lucy and Minkey (the kitty)

katkellm <katkellm@yahoo.com> wrote:
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "steph.sorensen"
<steph.sorensen@...> wrote:
>
Is this because I
> started them on variety too soon? Right now, they are going between
> pork and chicken,

Hi Steph,
For a month of raw feeding, 2 protein sources doesn't sound like too
much variety to me. What cut of pork are you feeding? I'm asking
because most of my pork meals tend to be boneless, since i buy pork
roasts which give me a few meatless meals and then a meal with a hunk
of bone. What i'm trying to ask is if maybe your pork meals are
just too light in the bone department for her right now. KathyM

---------------------------------
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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1b. Re: Starting to get a little frustrated here...
Posted by: "mgitaville" mgitaville@hotmail.com mgitaville
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:37 am ((PDT))

>
> Hi Steph,
> For a month of raw feeding, 2 protein sources doesn't sound like too
> much variety to me. What cut of pork are you feeding? I'm asking
> because most of my pork meals tend to be boneless, since i buy pork
> roasts which give me a few meatless meals and then a meal with a
hunk
> of bone. What i'm trying to ask is if maybe your pork meals are
> just too light in the bone department for her right now. KathyM
>

*****I have to agree here - some dogs are more sensitive to boneless
meals than others. My bullmastiff and I learned a valuable lesson
again just recently about the difference between a pork shoulder with
bone and a boneless butt roast with regards to stools. I will give
you a hint....the latter led to a trip needed outside at 2 am. Since
you are already feeding chicken can I suggest tossing in a few
chicken feet with the boneless pork. The other option is you could
do 1/2 chicken with bone and 1/2 boneless pork for a bit if you can't
find the chicken feet.

Marguerita

Messages in this topic (5)
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1c. Re: Starting to get a little frustrated here...
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:31 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "steph.sorensen"
<steph.sorensen@...> wrote:
>
> So should I go back to chicken for a couple of weeks before
> integrating other things again?

Thats what I would suggest. Start at the beginning and get things
settled down. After a couple of weeks, gradually add back in the
pork by feeding a pork meal every other day or every three days so
you can tell if its causing a problem.

I also suggest you feed no organs for at least 2 months.

Following this procedure, you should be able to determine exactly
what is causing the dog's problem.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (5)
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2a. Re: new to RAW, but my English Mastiff is loving it
Posted by: "mgitaville" mgitaville@hotmail.com mgitaville
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:37 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mastiffmom08012"
<mastiffmom08012@...> wrote:
>
> AND reaping all the benefits. Hello, I'm new to this group but I do
> belong to an English Mastiff group. I'm very new to this RAW feeding
> (only been at it for approx 1 month) but I have seen such an increase
> in his activity level and cleaning up after him in the yard is much
> easier.
>
> Can you guys provide me with more education on RAW?? I want to
become
> more knowledgeable on this subject.
>
> Thank you
>
> Angela
>
> ps, can I post pics here of my Mel?
>

*******Just thought I would jump in and say as a fellow Mastiff owner
(Bullmastiffs) I am more than happy to help answer any questions you
may have.

Marguerita

Messages in this topic (5)
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3a. Re: Pork as a starter?
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:38 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Kathie Middlemiss <geekgirl717@...>
wrote:
> I did get some bone-in pork ribs yesterday and am wondering if it's
okay
> to start him on pork if he won't eat the chicken?

Hi Kathie,
Sure, its fine to start him on pork ribs if he likes them. Its not a
big deal it he doesn't like chicken, however, because its usually the
cheapest option, which allows you to buy some cuts of meat that cost
more and still stay within the budget, i wouldn't give up on the
chicken yet. You could slice the chicken open and sprinkle some
Parmesan cheese on it. You could sear it just a tad to see if it gets
him interested. You could offer him a little hunk of boneless chicken
as a side dish served with his pork ribs. It sounds to me like he
wants to just chew his food and not have to rip it apart, so you could
help him do his job for awhile until he graduates to doing it for
himself. Good Luck,KathyM

Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: Pork as a starter?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:31 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Kathie Middlemiss
<geekgirl717@...> wrote:
>
> My older dog, however, not so much. He won't touch the half
> of chicken
> I was giving him for his breakfast (and then reoffering
> for dinner) but
> I did get him to eat a couple of boneless pork ribs.

> I did get some bone-in pork ribs yesterday and am wondering
> if it's okay
> to start him on pork if he won't eat the chicken?

It's ok to begin on pork ... HOWEVER ... it's NOT ok to let your dog
decide what he will and will not eat. Stop catering to him or you
will have a picky eater the rest of his life. Picky eaters are
made, not born. Deciding the diet is your responsibility.

Put his half chicken down and take it back up after 10 minutes of no
interest. No fuss, no cajoling him to eat. Put it down and get out
of the way and let him decide. Offer it again the next meal. No
between meal snacks or treats. If he snubbs it the next meal,
repeat the process. Repeat until he eats it. Some dogs will hold
out for 4 days or more but he will not starve himself.

Once he realizes that holding out won't get him a better offer, he
will eat it. He will soon learn that if he doesn't eat what you put
down, he doesn't eat at all. At that point, he will stop being a
picky eater although he may try you from time to time just to see.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Re: New to the group/questions
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:13 am ((PDT))

Jen Craver <jcraver1@...> wrote:

> I was told to try leg quarters for meatier meals - I think what I'm
> unclear on is how much "meat" I need to be feeding?

Lots of meat, a little bone and a little organ. If you want numbers
you can shoot for 80% meat, 10% edible bone, 10% organ.

> Additionally; I'm a little confused by amount of vegetables I should
> be feeding

That's an easy one, the amount of veggies you have to figure into
mealtime is: None. Nope, dogs are carnivores and have no nutritional
need for vegetation. A good varied raw diet will give all the
nutrients that they need. If your dog values them you can use
fruits/veggies as a treat, but they shouldn't take up real space in the
diet.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (4)
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4b. Re: New to the group/questions
Posted by: "kaylsraven" kaylsraven@yahoo.com kaylsraven
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:31 am ((PDT))

> I am feeding predominanty a mixture of chicken backs/necks and
turkey necks - that so far is what I have local/easy access too -
when I need to I can get (with a little advance planning) rabbit,
duck, beef etc.

Backs and necks are really high in bone, not normally recommended
unless they're attached to the rest of the bird. Can you get ahold of
whole or quartered chickens? What about pork? Pork is good--one of
the cheaper red meats.

> I was told to try leg quarters for meatier meals - I think what I'm
unclear on is how much "meat" I need to be feeding?

Lots. ^_^ Rule of thumb is about 80% of the entire diet is meat if
you want numbers (I did when I started--I had the scale and was
measuring, and then got tired of it so I stopped *lol*), but you're
pretty good if you feed a lot more meat than bone.

> Additionally; I'm a little confused by amount of vegetables I
should be feeding, some sources say no more than 1x week, others are
telling me every day!

This source will tell you none :D Veggies aren't necessary, but a lot
of dogs enjoy them--my guys like peaches and carrots and, sometimes,
green beans. And grass. You can give them as treats--if they like it,
training's good--but don't sweat over it. They're carnivores. There's
no minimal daily/weekly/monthly/yearly requirement for plant matter.

Cheers,

Sabrina 'n the gang

Messages in this topic (4)
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4c. Re: New to the group/questions
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:36 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Jen Craver <jcraver1@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> Just joined the group - and have a few questions.
>
> I am feeding predominanty a mixture of chicken backs/necks
> and turkey necks - that so far is what I have local/easy
> access too - when I need to I can get (with a little
> advance planning) rabbit, duck, beef etc.

Cool ... if the chicken necks are attached to the backs, thats
good. If not, necks are pretty small for all but the very smallest
of dogs. They can be swallowed whole and cause a choking hazzard.
Turkey necks are good if not cut in half like you usually find in
grocery stores.

I suggest a good place to find good dog food is to go to a small
independent grocery store, not a chain store. Ask them to order
stuff for you in bulk. You will need a freezer for this because you
will be buying larger quanities at a time. I order my chicken
backs, turkey necks, and beef hearts that way. Don't call on the
phone to ask about this. It's too easy to say no. Go in person and
talk to the meat manager or the owner of the store. Explain that
you will be buying a lot of meat over a long period of time and they
should be willing to do business with you.

> I was told to try leg quarters for meatier meals - I think
> what I'm unclear on is how much "meat" I need to be feeding?

Leg quarters are great and cheap at Walmart where you can get them
for around 45 cents/lb in 10lb bags. Don't worry a lot about
meat/bone ratio or any other ratio's. If you feed a good variety of
animal parts from a good variety of animals, everything will balance
out over time.

> Additionally; I'm a little confused by amount of vegetables
> I should be feeding,

NO vegetables. None are needed. My dogs haven't had a veggie in
nearly 5 years. No problem with their health.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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5a. Re: feeding fish and smaller bones
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:13 am ((PDT))

Fish are good for protein variety, but there isn't much of a
requirement for feeding them. Lots of us have to feed lots of grain
fed animals and so we supplement the diet with O3's from fish body
oils. Don't go breaking the bank on fishes, but if you can get them
cheap (or free) I wouldn't pass them up.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "michelle.pinkney"
<michelle.pinkney@...> wrote:

> So far I haven't fed fish. Fish is extremely expensive in New
> Zealand so will probably have to send my husband out to catch
> some. How often should I feed fish and how necessary is it?

Messages in this topic (5)
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5b. Re: feeding fish and smaller bones
Posted by: "Howard Salob" itiskismet1968@yahoo.com itiskismet1968
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:31 am ((PDT))

Dear Andrea,

How about sardines? They are cheap and read about it here. Tried it yesterday and my dog devoured them.

Sincerely,

Howard

Andrea <poketmouse45@yahoo.com> wrote:
Fish are good for protein variety, but there isn't much of a
requirement for feeding them. Lots of us have to feed lots of grain
fed animals and so we supplement the diet with O3's from fish body
oils. Don't go breaking the bank on fishes, but if you can get them
cheap (or free) I wouldn't pass them up.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "michelle.pinkney"
<michelle.pinkney@...> wrote:

> So far I haven't fed fish. Fish is extremely expensive in New
> Zealand so will probably have to send my husband out to catch
> some. How often should I feed fish and how necessary is it?

---------------------------------
Building a website is a piece of cake.
Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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5c. Re: feeding fish and smaller bones
Posted by: "Maggie Smith" redkeds@comcast.net redkeds1
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:11 am ((PDT))

All my fault becausee you saw how great my boys look and are doing
on raw? OK, I can take that kind of blame :) My only regret with
raw feeding? Not doing it sooner!

Really - this is quite easy and you and the Danes will be fine. I
did just send you a separate email with more details and suggestions.

Maggie, Rufus and Oliver
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:
>
> Pork loin here is $4.19/lb (I think my family will be eating
that!) & they
> bought 10 pounds of chicken thighs tonight to start with. I
already have
> boneless breast I can give for treats during the day right? I am
afraid I
> won't feed them enough!
> How much food is 9 cups of k***le = to lbs of meat with bone?
> OK, I'm REALLY stressing about this. All your fault Maggie :-)

Messages in this topic (5)
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6a. Re: Going to start!
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:31 am ((PDT))

You've got it, Trina. I'd start on the low end (3lbs a day) for both
of them to reduce the chance of loose stools. Don't feed anything
smaller than a chicken quarter to them since they are so big.
Splitting the food into two meals will cut down the likeleyhood of
loose stools too. You don't need to add any calcium supplements, and
for now just focus on chicken, ok? We'll deal with organs and variety
down the road. Good luck.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:
>
> Well, for now, I am just going to start with the two pups.

Messages in this topic (4)
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7a. Re: Feeding once a day
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:31 am ((PDT))

. I don't see any harm done feeding twice daily vs. once daily other
that convience.

I'd like to go out on a limb here, after thinking about it for a day,
and say that i certainly would bet my well stocked freezer full of raw
stuff, that no one on this list feeds once a day or less often because
its convenient. I actually find that it takes more time to acquire and
feed big meals than multiple little ones. I think that everyone who
feeds big meals at irregular intervals does so because they have tried
it and believe that their dogs benefit from this style of eating. I
would go on to bet that they would instead talk about how feeding like
this most closely allows you to mimic not only the food but the habits
of a wolf, about how their dogs are physically designed to eat this
way, about how their dogs are no longer clock watchers and are
no longer obsessed with food, about how content their dog is after
being allowed to eat until they decide they are full and not when
their people tell them they are, about the increased benefits, both
physical and mental, they have seen for their dogs. It certainly is
NOT necessary to feed big meals, for some dogs with health issues it
might not even be advisable, so new to raw feeders have to read and
think and make a choice for their dogs and keep an open mind because
raw feeding is an evolving journey-has been for me anyway, but no one
should ever believe that the choice on how often to feed is made for
the sake of convenience and not made for the sake of the dog. KathyM

Messages in this topic (12)
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8a. Chicken was not a crowd-pleaser!
Posted by: "qsgirl916" qsgirl916@yahoo.com qsgirl916
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:31 am ((PDT))

Hi,

I'm new to the group and new to raw feeding.

I started my dogs on the raw feeding diet this week. I have a
greyhound/beagle mix and a Welsh Corgi. Both dogs had ground
pork/beef for breakfast which was a big hit.

At dinner, I decided to introduce raw, meaty bones. Most of my
research said to start out with chicken - because it is bland, I
guess. However, my Corgi is allergic to poultry so he got pig's feet.
Typically, he can be a difficult and fussy eater, but he tore into
that pig's leg like a kid at Christmas.

My other dog, the easy-going one, got chicken backs. She was not
thrilled. In fact, she blatantly ignored it. I tried doing nothing
hoping hunger would get the best of her, and after several hours,
tried tempting her into it but to no avail. It went uneaten.

This morning, I put out the previously well-received ground meat. She
ate half and left the rest. The Corgi is still pigging out.

Is this normal? Do some dogs have a longer adjustment time to the new
diet? Any suggestions from any of you veterans?

Thanks!
Sarah

Messages in this topic (3)
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8b. Re: Chicken was not a crowd-pleaser!
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:12 am ((PDT))

Hi, Sarah!
Welcome!

Some dogs take to chewing and crunching faster than others, other dogs
may be concerned that they will be chastised for trying to eat 'people
food', some just don't 'get' that it is food, period.

I'm not sure what info you have gotten about raw feeding or from where.

Pigs feet are fatty and bony, they can cause 'cannon butt' in the
uninitiated - not a good first meal, nor a good meal in general -
they're an OK 'chew toy', but thats about it.

Chicken backs are also too bony - not nearly enough meat.

Just because your dog may have a sensitivity to cooked chicken in
kibble doesn't mean that he will have a problem with raw chicken.
Cooking changes the components and makes it more difficult for the dog
to digest and absorb nutrients.

Ground meats do not provide enough crunching activity to provide
dental, mental and physical activity, some of the best points of raw
feeding. for ideas to get your 'uninterested' dog engaged in real food
follow this link;
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/130758
Message #130758
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/134336
Message #134336

This list supports a species appropriate raw whole prey model.
Here's a link to my recommendations to start feeding raw;
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374

post # 141374

You also might be interested in using meat cuts charts, to help you
figure out what to buy;
http://www.virtualweberbullet.com/meatcharts.html
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> I'm new to the group and new to raw feeding.
>
> I started my dogs on the raw feeding diet this week. I have a
> greyhound/beagle mix and a Welsh Corgi. Both dogs had ground
> pork/beef for breakfast which was a big hit.
<snip>
> Typically, he can be a difficult and fussy eater, but he tore into
> that pig's leg like a kid at Christmas.
>
> My other dog, the easy-going one, got chicken backs. She was not
> thrilled. In fact, she blatantly ignored it.
<snip>
> ate half and left the rest. The Corgi is still pigging out.
>
> Is this normal? Do some dogs have a longer adjustment time to the new
> diet? Any suggestions from any of you veterans?
>
> Thanks!
> Sarah

Messages in this topic (3)
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8c. Re: Chicken was not a crowd-pleaser!
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:23 am ((PDT))

Woah, there, I think you might be headed for some pretty sloppy
stools soon. If/when you end up with cannon butt, don't despair,
just take a step back and start over.

> Both dogs had ground pork/beef for breakfast which was a big hit.

Good that they are eating it, but mixing pork and beef might cause
digestive upset. Also, ground food doesn't offer the dental benefits
as whole foods.

> my Corgi is allergic to poultry so he got pig's feet.

Dogs that are allergic to cooked chicken or have a positive allergen
test for chicken often aren't allergic to raw chicken. Don't
necessarily count it out for your boy.

> Typically, he can be a difficult and fussy eater, but he tore into
> that pig's leg like a kid at Christmas.

Pigs feet are good chew toys, but are mainly cartilage, fat, skin,
and bone. You might see some loose stools from this. It's good to
know that he likes pork, though.

> My other dog, the easy-going one, got chicken backs. She was not
> thrilled. In fact, she blatantly ignored it.

Chicken is much less aromatic than beef and pork so it is often
snubbed at first by dogs. Backs don't have much meat on them either,
so you might try adding some breast meat to the meal.

> I tried doing nothing hoping hunger would get the best of her, and
> after several hours, tried tempting her into it but to no avail.

Don't worry if the dog turns their nose up at something you give.
Leave it down for 20 minutes or so and if they don't want it, put it
away. No treats or snacks until the next mealtime when the same food
is offered again.

> Do some dogs have a longer adjustment time to the new diet?

Yes, some dogs take to it right away while some are stubborn and try
to dictate what they get fed. You have to be pretty firm at first
otherwise you end up with a super picky eater. Don't worry, a
healthy dog won't starve itself in the presence of food. You're
doing fine, just cut back on the variety and stand your ground.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (3)
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9a. Re: FYI for newbies
Posted by: "kaylsraven" kaylsraven@yahoo.com kaylsraven
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:32 am ((PDT))

> A post from someone like you who has recently worked through these
> distressful episodes must be a lot more reassuring than a ton of us
> long time raw feeders, who say "Its just loose poops, it'll be fine,
> really." ^_^

Not sure how long you have to feed raw before you're considered
a 'long time raw feeder' *G* but I still remember freaking out over
my GSD pup, Siris, when I brought him home two years ago and
encountered bad canon butt. I'd changed my other dogs over a year and
a half before, so I thought I was pretty cool on the whole poop
issue...not so much with a new puppy, lemme tell ya!

I tried just letting him work through it for a few days on chicken,
thinking it was just his little body adjusting (prolly was...). No
change. Tried switching him back to the kibble he'd been on when I
got him for a couple days. Not a lot of change. Okay, so let's put
him on raw but add some more bone to firm it up, right? Right...next
couple trips outside had the squirts with the occasional pause to let
a chunk of digested bone out, followed immediately by more squirts.
Someone said try tripe--not sure why, but it didn't help. He sure
enjoyed it though. Someone on-list suggested boiled chicken and rice,
to be nice and easy on his stomach--someone else on shot back almost
immediately, demanding to know how undigestible grain and changing
the chicken from its natural state was going to help soothe his
stomach? Scratch that idea, mostly. I wound up making up some white
rice and feeding him some of that with his raw, just so I could
sleep! It firmed it up in a day or two, I dropped the rice, and he
was (and is) good. Not exactly the recommended solution, but
sometimes you do what you need to do so you won't be a zombie at work
the next morning.

They settle down--it may take a while, but they settle down. When I
switched Aussie, my older ACD (older...he's four, the younger one's
three and a half *lol*) it took him a couple weeks to adjust his
stomach. On the other hand, I discovered Taffy, my old Collie, had
pretty much a cast iron stomach. All dogs is different. Nowadays, I
don't get the squirts from any of my guys hardly ever (Siris will get
them if he gets a too-large pork meal, along with the death farts,
but he so loves his pork. And chicken. And beef. And fish. And
rabbit. And goat heads. And...)

Hope that helped and didn't scare anybody off *G*

Cheers,

Sabrina 'n the gang

Messages in this topic (6)
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10a. 4 dogs starting
Posted by: "Francine-Texas" francie43@sbcglobal.net fcampinose
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:32 am ((PDT))

I want to start my 4 large dogs on raw but how do I separate the food. Do I
need to feed one at a time if I put one in front of one or the other and one
dose not eat someone else might grab it now I just leave dry kibble down all
the time no food issues at all.
Thank you
Francine

Messages in this topic (2)
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10b. Re: 4 dogs starting
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:11 am ((PDT))

Many times dogs who didn't have resource guarding issues with ki**le
decide that their new raw food is worth guarding. I would feed the
dogs in different areas of the room or better yet, in their crates if
they have them. Just be there while they eat so you can keep the
peace.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Francine-Texas" <francie43@...>
wrote:
>
> I want to start my 4 large dogs on raw but how do I separate the
> food.

Messages in this topic (2)
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11a. Supplement Question...again
Posted by: "nlhp4" nlhp4@yahoo.com nlhp4
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:32 am ((PDT))

I have two one year old dogs, a lab-rotty? mix and an English
Springer Spaniel, both are completely raw fed with no supplements.

For various reasons, I am starting to doubt that they are getting the
proper nutrition and thus started to do a bit of research on
supplements. I read about two dozen postings already in this group
regarding supplements and found the USDA Nutrient Database, GREAT
RESOURCE!

I can figure out how many vitamins/minterals/fats, etc. the dogs are
currently getting based on this database, but how do I know how much
nutrients my dogs actually needs? Is there a similar web site to
this USDA site that shows the reccommended nutrients for for a dog
based on a dogs weight?

I just want to be sure the two are REALLY getting enough of what is
reccommended for proper health and growth (lab mix is still growing
like a weed!) without supplements if at all possible.

Any help is greatly appreciated!

Thanks,
Sibyl

Messages in this topic (2)
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11b. Re: Supplement Question...again
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:46 am ((PDT))

Hi, Sybil!
All you have to do, is ask yourself the question; "What
would the wolf eat?"

Once you've done that, and remembered that the species appropriate
whole prey model is the ideal, you'll know you need to head off in
that direction more, if you want to further improve your dog's
nutrition. Not artificial supps.

Everything I've seen or heard about thats been done on dog nutrition
has come from pet food corps, bent on proving their cr*p-in-a-bag is
the best - not the most reliable source of unbiased data, imo.

Why not rely on Mother Nature's wisdom? Research sources of whole
prey, wild or grass fed, instead;
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/139618
Post #139618

http://www.prey4pets.com/servlet/StoreFront

http://www.hare-today.com/index.php?cPath=23

http://www.rodentpro.com/products.asp

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> I have two one year old dogs, a lab-rotty? mix and an English
> Springer Spaniel, both are completely raw fed with no supplements.
>
> For various reasons, I am starting to doubt that they are getting the
> proper nutrition and thus started to do a bit of research on
> supplements. I read about two dozen postings already in this group
> regarding supplements and found the USDA Nutrient Database, GREAT
> RESOURCE!
<snip>
> I just want to be sure the two are REALLY getting enough of what is
> recommended for proper health and growth (lab mix is still growing
> like a weed!) without supplements if at all possible.
>
> Any help is greatly appreciated!
>
> Thanks,
> Sibyl

Messages in this topic (2)
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12a. Re: Feeding Frozen RAW
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:32 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:
>
> Can I feed frozen?
> Like a frozen boneless chicken breast as a treat: not the meal
> but for
> treats in between meals?

Of course. Sometimes I forget to get something out and will feed
things like chicken leg quarters frozen for a meal.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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13. Fw: Texas
Posted by: "Francine-Texas" francie43@sbcglobal.net fcampinose
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:34 am ((PDT))

-------Original Message-------

From: Francine-Texas
Date: 9/26/2007 9:51:30 AM
To:
Subject: Texas

Hi I live in the Texas Hill Country Marble Falls area any one know of any
raw food suppliers out my way thank you.
Francine

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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14a. Re: Pet Tabs Plus/Vitamin A
Posted by: "brutus_buckley" brutus_buckley@yahoo.com brutus_buckley
Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:11 am ((PDT))

//Why not clue him in to the O6 / O3 story, and encourage him to give
them Salmon or Fish Body oil supps?//

***Thanks Giselle; we already supplement with Grizzly SO. Mr. Husband
gave up on the vitamins notion, surprisingly, with no struggle
whatsoever. He said, "yeah, I don't think they really need vitamins
anyways." ??? What can I say...
-Renee W.

Messages in this topic (6)
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