Feed Pets Raw Food: Dec 18, 2007

Tuesday, December 18, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12395

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Ready to go to next level of raw?!
From: Lauren Funaiole
1b. Re: Ready to go to next level of raw?!
From: Yasuko herron
1c. Re: Ready to go to next level of raw?!
From: John and Jeni Blackmon
1d. Re: Ready to go to next level of raw?!
From: Sandee Lee

2a. Re: Need help with puppy
From: Dawn
2b. Re: Need help with puppy
From: Randy
2c. Re: Need help with puppy
From: cypressbunny

3a. Re: Please help me prepare to attend home butcher of 2 pigs....
From: Randy
3b. Re: Please help me prepare to attend home butcher of 2 pigs....
From: costrowski75

4a. Re: Wow people are nutz!
From: m td
4b. Re: Wow people are nutz!
From: costrowski75

5. Problems Fiinding a Variety of Meat
From: Susan Fortune

6a. Re: VERY interested in RAW diet for Mastiff.
From: A.

7a. Re: fasting question -- Can we call it "not eating?"
From: Nora Lenz

8a. {Raw Feeding} Scored!!! What do you think?
From: Susan Fortune

9a. links on raw
From: T Smith
9b. Re: links on raw
From: Chia
9c. Re: links on raw
From: Sandee Lee
9d. Re: links on raw
From: T Smith
9e. Re: links on raw
From: Giselle

10a. Re: Quick stool question
From: Yasuko herron

11. Need help with Irish Wolfhound and feeding raw
From: Kathryn Rowland

12a. Re: panting
From: Yasuko herron

13a. Looking for advice, support, guidance with dobe
From: aquilter16
13b. Re: Looking for advice, support, guidance with dobe
From: Sandee Lee

Messages
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1a. Re: Ready to go to next level of raw?!
Posted by: "Lauren Funaiole" LFUNAIOL@SIMIVALLEY.ORG lfunaiol
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:21 pm ((PST))

Hi Marge,

I think that you will see more consistent results if you feed your dogs one meal a day. Right now, you are feeding one bony meal and one meaty meal. Therefore, you are getting firm stools and loose stools. Adult dogs do much better on one meal and you will be able to provide more consistent meals with just the right amount of bone to keep them firm.

There's nothing wrong with adding beef as the second kind of protein. If you want to avoid loose stools, add a little beef with some bone-in chicken in one meal. Also, if that sirloin has a cut bone in it, remove it before giving it to the dogs. You could feed beef ribs, but the bones are not very edible for most dogs. You will be taking cleaned bones away from the dogs when they are done eating. Consequently, you could get some loose stools from a meat-only meal. A great beef cut to add to chicken meals is beef heart. It's usually affordable, and most dogs LOVE it.

Lauren Funaiole

>>> "marge" <marge_moriarty17551@yahoo.com> 12/18/2007 3:48 PM >>>

The older mini P is 10..he has been more on the costipated side since
adoption. Now he is either constipated or very loose. I have been
regulating this with more chicken meat in pm...giving the other dog
the bonier pieces.

I do wish he had a regular bowel movement before I go to the next
step...but then again, he seems happy, not uncomfortable...and maybe
the slow intro of other food will get him going.

So, I have some sirloin in my freezer that we don't want so I was
going to try a small pc with their chicken. Is this to rich and
should I use pork or turkey? When could I add some beef bone..ribs
or ??? Any suggestions for the next level would be appreciated.
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Messages in this topic (6)
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1b. Re: Ready to go to next level of raw?!
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:17 pm ((PST))

>Slabs of ribs can be fun and provide good tooth cleaning in the process of removing the bits of meat, gristle,etc., but they aren't fed for bone content

Hi,Sandee.My dog eats Beef Rib bone,Buffalo rib bone,Elk bone etc but I should not feed Beef or Buffalo rib bone?? Since she had no problem crunch down,I just l;et her eat it.Occasinary,especially when she was tired,she tends to leave some bone bits on mat but,other than that,she eats them all.

If she eats bone,it is ok to count as bone intake,right??

yassy

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Messages in this topic (6)
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1c. Re: Ready to go to next level of raw?!
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:18 pm ((PST))

Marge,
Welcome to Raw, ain't it great?!
I would stay on the chicken for another week even two, since we like to keep them on one source of the same meat for a few weeks in the very beginning. And one week, even one good week, is great, but you should keep them on the chicken, for a little longer.
And to help your one with the constipation/runny stools, maybe try changing your chicken to less boney chicken. Backs and thighs, are too much bone, normally. Think meat, because meat should be at least 80% of the diet, all the time. Bone is only 10%. In a larger dog, a whole chicken works out great, but for yours, maybe not so. Breast on the bone would probably work good, but not every meal, give boneless meat on other meals, so then the stools will firm up. Too much bone in the meals will make for runny stools.
Save the Sirloin for a few weeks down the road, it won't go bad, never does for dogs, put it in the freezer and hold on to it.
Wait until everyone is regulated the way they should be before you move on. No need to rush, you have alot of time, all the time in the world for this to work, and you see it working already.
In a few weeks when the stools firm up and they will, then you can change the meat to a different kind, and throw that sirloin in.
But when you switch, you want to have enough on hand of the same kind of protein to mix in with the chicken, like if you are adding the sirloin, have more beef on hand so you can have meals of both the beef and chicken for everyone. :) If you want to switch to a different kind of meat, like pork, then just keep the sirloin in the freezer a little longer.
Once your furbabies get used to a few different kinds of meats, and their stomachs learn the way you are going you could throw a cow at them and they would be fine, but until then, you should take it easy on them for starters:)
On adding recreational bones, I use rib racks and pigs feet, emu ribs, any kind of bone I can find, but mine are great danes, and they can handle any kind of bones I throw at them.
If you feel yours can handle it, I would start off with some pork rib bones, since yours are smaller, and pork didn't seem to upset the stomach of my little Pomchi when we got her, you could cut a rack in half, and try that.
Most people don't give their dogs weight bearing bones, ones that an animal uses to put all their weight on, the legs and such because the feel it will hurt the teeth of the dog, and it can if the dog gets carried away. Mine don't so I don't worry about it. We even have cow feet that they chew on for fun.
They can get a little pork introduced slowly into thier systems, while still on the chicken, but not like a meal, and have the ribs for cleaning teeth, mine however eat all the bones, and some other dogs can too. See how yours do. Just watch and if they leave the bones after the meat is gone, then throw them away. But don't separate them from the rack, leave at least three ribs together, so they don't gulp them.... When you have a new dog like yours, the one you adopted, it takes time to find out if it eats, chews, gulps, or devours bones.:)
And if that goes well, then pigs feet are even better, mine eat the whole thing, and for yours, those could very well be a meal. Mine, just a snack:)
And as far as rich(ness) goes on a meat, I have never had a problem with that on any meat. Some meats are kind of fatty, like pork. But if you have a rescue that needs to gain some weight, this could be helpful. Some dogs get runny stools from too much fat, just depends. (no pun intended)
Beef usually isn't a problem even when we give ours the trim and it comes sometimes 50/50 half fat and half meat. They love it.
And don't forget to add fish to the mix, it helps a whole lot, gives them oils and nutrients they need and it's a meat too.
Remember, meat 80%, bones 10%, and organs, 10%, like liver, hearts, and stuff.
It doesn't have to all be like this in every meal, but should work out like this say every week. I do organ meats once a week, Whole chickens, at least once a week, pig feets a few a week.
Ground rabbit, once a week. Rec bones all the time. Beef, pork, turkey, emu, and whatever is on sale, every day.
Now that they are used to it.:)
You're getting there, just take your time, let them get used to it. Keep up the great work.
Jeni
Owned, operated, often tricked, by my two Great Danes, Zeus and Zena, our little Pomchi, Daisy, and the cat Lucky, and our little no name, he's new, and a Chihuahua, who is just too cute for his own good:) and Mine!

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Messages in this topic (6)
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1d. Re: Ready to go to next level of raw?!
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:47 pm ((PST))

If they are soft enough she can consume without harming teeth, yes they
count as bone intake.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Yasuko herron" <sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com>
>
> Hi,Sandee.My dog eats Beef Rib bone,Buffalo rib bone,Elk bone etc but I
should not feed Beef or Buffalo rib bone?? Since she had no problem crunch
down,I just l;et her eat it.Occasinary,especially when she was tired,she
tends to leave some bone bits on mat but,other than that,she eats them all.
>
> If she eats bone,it is ok to count as bone intake,right??

Messages in this topic (6)
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2a. Re: Need help with puppy
Posted by: "Dawn" draine9543@gmail.com dawnsdogs2004
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:21 pm ((PST))

Almost 2 pounds for a 35 lb puppy is way too much food.
Should only be around 1 pound???

Are you peeling all the skin and fat off the quarters?

~~Dawn~~

Messages in this topic (5)
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2b. Re: Need help with puppy
Posted by: "Randy" rrostie@gmail.com rjrostie
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:36 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Dawn" <draine9543@...> wrote:
>
> Almost 2 pounds for a 35 lb puppy is way too much food.
> Should only be around 1 pound???

I am cutting down.

> Are you peeling all the skin and fat off the quarters?

No, but I will if it will help.

Randy R

Messages in this topic (5)
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2c. Re: Need help with puppy
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:40 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Randy" <rrostie@...> wrote:
>
> > Are you peeling all the skin and fat off the quarters?
>
> No, but I will if it will help.

*** It may help a bit during the transition but is not needed long
term. A 4 month old pup may need to be fed 3 times a day rather than 2.
How much food pups need varies quite a bit, but 1.5# per day does seem
like too much for an adult Llasa. Unless your Llasa is huge, less than
a pound per day would be a more reasonable amount. I would skip a meal
for both dogs and allow their systems to rest, and then resume with
smaller amounts and a bit less fat. Then work back up to an appropriate
amount without removing fat.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (5)
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3a. Re: Please help me prepare to attend home butcher of 2 pigs....
Posted by: "Randy" rrostie@gmail.com rjrostie
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:21 pm ((PST))

Trichinosis used to be a problem with pork but legislation has made
sure commercial pork suppliers don't feed pigs raw meat garbage.
Hopefully the Amish are equally as careful what they feed their pigs.

I would think the quality of the pork tripe would depend on what the
pigs were fed.

Randy R

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Dawn" <draine9543@...> wrote:
>
> I have been reading that pork is controversial....
> true? un-true?
>
> I am invited to spend a day with an Amish family,
> they are butchering 2 pigs...I can have everything that they
> normally throw into pails and bring out to the woods.
>
> I need a plan...LOL! Is pork tripe good? Are you only supposed to
> feed beef tripe? How will I know which part is tripe?
> (other then the smell) I am going to bring a couple saw horses, meat
> cleaver, packing paper and my grinder, grind and
> package on the spot. Bring home and freeze.

Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: Please help me prepare to attend home butcher of 2 pigs....
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:48 pm ((PST))

"Randy" <rrostie@...> wrote:
.
>
> I would think the quality of the pork tripe would depend on what the
> pigs were fed.
*****
Tripe is generally considered the lining of a stomach/some of the
stomachs/all the stomachs of a ruminant. A pig is an ungulate but not
a ruminant. A pig's stomach is pretty much like ours. Not tripe
material. Just plain old stomach.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Re: Wow people are nutz!
Posted by: "m td" mtd885@yahoo.com mtd885
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:21 pm ((PST))

My guess is that the fast food is 'made with 100%
beef' and supermarket stuff is 100% beef. It has never
tasted like beef to me but when I did eat that stuff
it satisfied a craving...mtd

mtd

what is the difference in
> the meat

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Messages in this topic (16)
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4b. Re: Wow people are nutz!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:36 pm ((PST))

"carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
>
> I have a serious question ... If I buy a 1/4 pounder at McDonalds or
a
> Whopper and Burger king, what is the difference in the meat from the
> ground beef I buy at the gocery store?
*****
You'd have to find out where McD gets its beef (used to be Argentina,
don't know now) and from whence comes the beef in the supermarket.

Beyond that, it's not how the beef starts out, it's how it ends up.

And it shouldn't matter on this list anyway. Unless the dog is eating
it. In which case the subject still oughtn't be here since Mickey D's
cooks (at least once) its ground beef.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (16)
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5. Problems Fiinding a Variety of Meat
Posted by: "Susan Fortune" desperatelyseekingsusan@cox.net cactususan
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:42 pm ((PST))

Brandi:

You are in great territory for:
1. Beef
2. Hunters
...not that your dog should eat the hunters, but the hunters can potentially provide you with meat.

I hunt the supermarket ads, & also buy from a meat processor who travels up & down the state with dog-appropriate food. He has the interesting stuff.

www.crestonvalleymeats.com
He has buffalo bones, emu liver, rabbit, pig's feet, green tripe, organ blend & many other items. This California business doesn't help you except to know that raw feeding is pretty big, and you should be able to find some sources.

If you're out in the tules, think of making a monthly trip to a slaughterhouse. A freezer from Craig's List makes that do-able!

Susan Fortune
Southern California

"Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle."

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Messages in this topic (1)
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6a. Re: VERY interested in RAW diet for Mastiff.
Posted by: "A." ols@charter.net cesare.1920
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:17 pm ((PST))

Hi Ken! I have 2 Mastiffs as well. A 1 year old and a 5 year old. I
can't really give you info on prices because we have just started
feeding raw ourselves. We also were on Diamond 60+ :)

I just wanted to post and tell you that it is worth a shot. If it
becomes to expensive then you could always switch back. I was spending
on dry dogfood $45-55 a month. Since I have not found cheap places to
buy meat ye we are paying more now. I am grabbing up sale meats but
our local processing plants aren't being very helpful when I call
asking to buy scraps.

Start with leg quarters maybe. I am getting them for about 50 cents a
pound. I am getting whole chickens for about 86 cents a pound.

Good luck with your giant babies!!

~Amanda

> Mainly what I'm looking for here is someone who has fed RAW to a
> MASTIFF for a while and what it comes out to be monthly as a cost?
>
> I totally understand the benefits of feeding RAW, i'm just unsure if
I
> could afford it or not. :(

> Ken

Messages in this topic (8)
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7a. Re: fasting question -- Can we call it "not eating?"
Posted by: "Nora Lenz" nmlenz@speakeasy.net rawnora
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:17 pm ((PST))

Kathy,
When you only feed your dog one day out of three, what you're doing on
the off days is fasting, regardless of what you call it. The word
"fasting" carries no religious or moral connotation, at least not in
the context that it has been used here. It's just the act of not
feeding when you (or someone else) otherwise might. In addition,
although I didn't see the post you were replying to, I note in your
comments some misunderstanding or confusion that I'd like to try and
clear up, if you'll indulge me, particilarly in this passage:

"...maybe there are too many wolves and food is scarce. This is not a
good thing. I do not think any of us think it is advantageous to let
our dogs not eat until they are starving, jsut becasue sometimes this
happens to wolves."

Fluctuations in any species' food supply that occasionally result in
starvation are part of nature. It should be noted that when food is
scarce, nature does her best to assure that there is as little
suffering as possible via mechanisms like spontaneous abortion and
decreased fertility. That starvation also happens sometimes is not
subject to a moral judgement by us. It just is. The starvation of a
few animals when food is scarce prevents more suffering if those
animals were to survive and bring more offspring into the situation.
Nobody is suggesting that we should starve our dogs because that
happens to wild dogs on occasion. Fasting is not starvation; the two
processes are entirely distinct. During fasting, the body subsists on
stored reserves. Also during a fast, the body directs its energies to
whatever tasks it is behind on, and which commonly result in symptoms
(in dogs) like skin and ear inflammation, diarrhea, scooting, lethargy
and a whole host of chronic issues.

When a dog's reserves are completely used up, starvation is what
happens if the dog is not fed.

So, to summarize:

Fasting affords a sick body the chance to regenerate and rejuvenate.
Starvation always results in death. The two are not only distinct,
you could even say they are opposites, at least in effect.

Most humans can go many weeks without eating, and come out of the
experience much healthier for it. Similarly, dogs can also go for
long periods without food. Nature set it up that way. All successful
species have had to adapt to periodic food scarcity. Since we're
still here, we obviously adapted this ability. So did dogs. I don't
recommend fasting asymptomatic dogs just because we have this
knowledge. I believe that irregular feeding is best for dogs because
it mirrors what happens in the wild. If you're feeding irregularly
and don't want to call the non-feeding days "fasting" days, it doesn't
change the underlying principle.

Most dog owners are under the mistaken impression that dogs need daily
feedings. When symptoms flare up, the first thing that dog owners
should do is back off on feeding because it is the accumulation of
undigested substances in the body that creates the vast majority of
symptoms. If a dog owner is already feeding appropriate foods in
proper quantities such that the dog is never symptomatic, extended
fasting (more than a day or two) need never be employed.

"FAST has an emotional meaning that in not applicable to dogs."

First and foremost, fasting is an inherently natural phenomenon. Food
scarcity isn't the only reason that animals fast. All wild animals
typically abstain from eating when they are sick and injured. In the
human world, fasting has been used by health practitioners and health
seekers for centuries as a way of giving the body the chance to
cleanse and recuperate. That is has also been used for religious or
other purposes does not change the meaning of the word.

Best regards,
Nora
www.RawSchool.com

Messages in this topic (9)
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8a. {Raw Feeding} Scored!!! What do you think?
Posted by: "Susan Fortune" desperatelyseekingsusan@cox.net cactususan
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:17 pm ((PST))

Yikes.

Unless you're feeding a Chihuahua, those are high prices. You don't need the cuts that the custom butcher is providing for his human clients. Talk to him about trim & scrap.

I NEVER pay more than $1.00 per pound for anything...but that doesn't mean that I can buy everything! I routinely buy chicken breasts, leg quarters & country-style pork ribs--all at $.99. Whole chicken at $.69.

The beef heart is reasonable. Check your supermarket sales.

Susan
Southern California

"Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle."

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Messages in this topic (3)
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9a. links on raw
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:18 pm ((PST))

+++Mod note: pls keep signature to 4 lines or less. this one trimmed for you by a mod. ++++++++++

I keep getting ripped apart about dogs being omnivores.....& kibble is
great, I have no proof raw is good, I'm a bad person to feed raw...
ANY current links out there please with substantiated 'evidence' on raw
feeding & benefits & why kibble is not good?
Trina
--
Chip (senior cancer deaf Dalmatian)
Casper (deaf Great Dane)
Whisper (deaf & epileptic Great Dane)

Messages in this topic (5)
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9b. Re: links on raw
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:24 pm ((PST))

http://rawfed.com/myths

everything you need is here. Hmmm... I thought
omnivores had jaws that moved side to side with mashing teeth to break down
vegetation... strange how dogs have a jaw that only works up and down...and
teeth that criss cross like daggers... could we all be wrong?

Chia & Ricco
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Messages in this topic (5)
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9c. Re: links on raw
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:38 pm ((PST))

Same as always, Trina...rawfeeding myths! All the facts are there.

Why are you even bothering to discuss this with unbelievers?

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "T Smith" <coldbeach@gmail.com>
> I keep getting ripped apart about dogs being omnivores.....& kibble is
> great, I have no proof raw is good, I'm a bad person to feed raw...
> ANY current links out there please with substantiated 'evidence' on raw
> feeding & benefits & why kibble is not good?

Messages in this topic (5)
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9d. Re: links on raw
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:51 pm ((PST))

I just want to defend my position on why I feed raw to my 9 dogs.
That's all. I guess since I know it is right, I've nothing to defend.
Thanks for the reminder!
Trina

On Dec 18, 2007 7:38 PM, Sandee Lee <rlee@plix.com> wrote:

> Same as always, Trina...rawfeeding myths! All the facts are there.
>
> Why are you even bothering to discuss this with unbelievers?
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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9e. Re: links on raw
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:22 pm ((PST))

Hi, Trina!
Some links in archived posts;

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/143301

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/144402

The Merck Veterinary Manual: "The carbohydrates added to pet foods are
mainly in the form of polysaccharides (starch and cellulose),
disaccharides (sucrose and lactose), and monosaccharides (glucose and
fructose). Carbohydrates are a less expensive source of energy than
fat or protein. In dogs, there appears to be **no dietary requirement
for carbohydrate**."

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawChat/message/16340
I don't try to convert the close minded, either. And I never 'defend' my
decision to feed raw.
Unless they come to me with an open mind and/or genuine questions, I let 'em
wallow in their own ignorance. ^_^

TC
Giselle

On Dec 18, 2007 9:52 PM, T Smith <coldbeach@gmail.com> wrote:

> +++Mod note: pls keep signature to 4 lines or less. this one trimmed for
> you by a mod. ++++++++++
>
> I keep getting ripped apart about dogs being omnivores.....& kibble is
> great, I have no proof raw is good, I'm a bad person to feed raw...
> ANY current links out there please with substantiated 'evidence' on raw
> feeding & benefits & why kibble is not good?
> Trina
> --
> Chip (senior cancer deaf Dalmatian)
> Casper (deaf Great Dane)
> Whisper (deaf & epileptic Great Dane)
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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10a. Re: Quick stool question
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:29 pm ((PST))

> My guy puts out really tiny turds varying from day to day from the calcified crumblies to really soft, very dark squishy kinds of emissions.However, the food doesn't really vary that much.

Hi,Carol.What does your dog get as meal as variety? Are you still new?

My dog tend to give much dark poo when I feed heart meal andthen,it is little softer(not enough to mess her butt fur though),and when I feed rib meal or something along with boneless meat, or poultry, then,she gives firmer poo but not crumbly. Poultry gives pale poo and elk and Mackerral and other red meat meal seem to give brown tan or little darker poo.Pork however gives pale poo.
Liver is just about 5% so,it seems not effect her too much in poo concistency-wise.

As for quantity,she goes potty and do poo maybe once a day(used to be 2 or more on kibble) and,much much small poo.Small pooo is normal. That means things you fed are digested pretty good by dog.

If you see pudding-like poo,it maybe you fed too much food in one sitting or too much fat in the meal (like my dog could not handle all skin on with Duck and gave dark pudding-like poo),or you fed new food too much too soon.Do you find any possibility in here?

Other than real food matter,my dog had miserable time when my neighbor fed large dogggy treats.I stopped all commercial made treats after switching to raw feeding and had no milkbone or steak flavore doggy treat oranything like that before the treat she got andmy guess is she cannot handle commercial treats anymore(preservative,additive etc in treats) and she had diarrhea woke me up at night..

If you stopped feeding commercial made treats like me,it is another possibility.

>Also, from time to time (about 2-3 times over 9 months) he's "lost it"
in the kitchen in the middle of the night and I wake up to find a mixture
of pudding poop little deposits in some areas and these hard crumbly
deposits in the other...both from the same poop?

I think so. when my dog had lamb tongue which has 70% fat in food,she had waterly-pudding like yellowish poo with bits in it. After I tweaked her lamb tongue meal with combo meal,the poo problem was gone but it was due for too much fat in the diet in palette's case.

Are you keeping Jounal?? It really helps.you really don't have to write long diary-like thing.Just write down dates,what you fed and if you see problem like this happen,you can look back and find out what was causing it and very good to track down the cause.I keep Jounal daily.

>Anyway, do I need to worry here?
I don't think so. I think you try Jounal andsee what was causing the problem and tweak the menu maybe good way to go. For crmbly ones, in general,give less bone than now and for pudding like poo,you maybe either feeding too much fat in one sitting so,you can try skin off from meal or cut out visible glob of fat or if you were feeding too much andmade such poo,then,you feed small amount per meal would solve the problems.

If yourdog were constipated-like,meal tweaking help but also,going for walk helps too.Because walking makes encourage the bowel movement.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (13)
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11. Need help with Irish Wolfhound and feeding raw
Posted by: "Kathryn Rowland" kerowland2005@sbcglobal.net tazzie979
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:51 pm ((PST))

I have tried looking in the archives and unless I am doing it wrong was
unable to find help/info!!!

I have a 4 1/2 irish wolfhound who I am trying to feed raw. I am
concerned that I am missing the "basics" with him for his breed. I
hope this makes sense. My newfoundlands have not skipped a beat in the
transition but my IW is having difficulties. He only wants chicken
backs or ground beef! If someone who has experience with this breed
can help me I would appreciate it.

If need be, email me directly or give me a link to go to!

Thanks

Kathryn

Messages in this topic (1)
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12a. Re: panting
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:52 pm ((PST))

I do remember months ago,someone was posting about trainer was telling them cool food and hot food or something.I do not remember the detail,but it should be in the past archive.

maybe food we feed has some effect on body?? other than work out to eat meal.??

yassy

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Messages in this topic (9)
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13a. Looking for advice, support, guidance with dobe
Posted by: "aquilter16" aquilter16@hotmail.com aquilter16
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:28 pm ((PST))

MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.

Hi, I have a 5 month old female dobe and would like to correspond with
anybody that has experience with raw feeding this breed. She has been
on chicken backs for 2 months and have run into a few instances of
frequent, loose, mucousy stool. She has been checked by vet and given
a clean bill of health, but of course the diet was cited as cause of
problems - I didn't try to defend myself, will look for another vet.
But anyway, will welcome hearing from anyone with experience with dobes
or similiar breed. Thanks.

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

13b. Re: Looking for advice, support, guidance with dobe
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:29 pm ((PST))

I don't have a dobe at the moment (did in the past)...right now it's Danes.
Regardless, appropriate diet is dependant upon species rather than breed!
Dogs are carnivores and their normal prey consists of lots of red meat and a
little edible bone (think deer, elk, moose, etc).

I'm not certain what the problem is with your dog...a few instances of loose
stools really isn't a big deal. But a steady diet of chicken backs is
something to be concerned about. Definitely lacking in meat, fat, variety,
and heavy in bone...crucial in a growing puppy.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "aquilter16" <aquilter16@hotmail.com>

Messages in this topic (2)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12394

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: {Raw Feeding} Scored!!! What do you think?
From: Lauren Funaiole

2a. Re: skin red?
From: costrowski75

3. Help Please!
From: Anntiga@aol.com

4a. Re: panting
From: Laurie Swanson

5a. skinny dogs
From: Diana Jones
5b. Re: skinny dogs
From: costrowski75

6a. Re: New to raw (sorta), need help.
From: life.therapies
6b. Re: New to raw (sorta), need help.
From: Lauren Funaiole
6c. Re: New to raw (sorta), need help.
From: Sandee Lee

7a. Re: Quick stool question
From: adkjoe17
7b. Re: Quick stool question
From: Sandee Lee
7c. Re: Quick stool question
From: adkjoe17
7d. Re: Quick stool question
From: Cdandp2@aol.com
7e. Re: Quick stool question
From: Sandee Lee

8. Please help me prepare to attend home butcher of 2 pigs....
From: Dawn

9a. reflux problem
From: Amy Maywald
9b. Re: reflux problem
From: Giselle

10a. Re: Wow people are nutz!
From: carnesbill

11.1. Re: Constipation
From: spricketysprock
11.2. Re: Constipation
From: Sandee Lee
11.3. Re: Constipation
From: Sherrel Leininger

12a. Ready to go to next level of raw?!
From: marge
12b. Re: Ready to go to next level of raw?!
From: Sandee Lee

13a. Need help with puppy
From: Randy
13b. Re: Need help with puppy
From: Sandee Lee

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: {Raw Feeding} Scored!!! What do you think?
Posted by: "Lauren Funaiole" LFUNAIOL@SIMIVALLEY.ORG lfunaiol
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:27 pm ((PST))

Hi Brandi,

I live in Southern California, so we are in different markets, but I never pay more than $2.00 a pound for beef. I accomplish that by just waiting for sales at local supermarkets. Chuck roast and London Broil frequently go on sale at the big chain groceries for about $1.79 a pound. Also, our local Smart and Final store always has brisket for $1.79 a pound. Heart is always $1.29 at a local mexican market. From my perspective, the only great deal that you have found is the heart. On the other hand, those prices might be great for your area, I don't know.

Lauren Funaiole

>>> "Brandi Bryant" <bbryant573@gmail.com> 12/18/2007 10:57 AM >>>

OK - I checked out the prices at our local custom butchering plant - here
are some prices let me know if you think these are high -

Flank steak - $2.99/lb
Skirt steak - $2.99/lb
Round Steak - $3.49/lb
Arm Roast - $2.59/lb
Chuck Roast - $2.59/lb
Rump Roast - $2.59/lb
Bricket - $2.49/lb

And the big one!!!! .99/lb for beef hearts!!!!

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Messages in this topic (2)
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2a. Re: skin red?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:41 pm ((PST))

"addicted 2 my pc" <mmoy1191@...> wrote:
> been feeding my Golden Retriever now for her whole life of 2 years
next month she has been very healthy ,yesterday for the first time
i noriced her belly is red?? could this be from
> an allergy to mebe one of the meats im feeding?
*****
If you haven't changed a darn thing and sudddenly she's got a red
belly, I doubt very much it's an allergy to meat. It could be a
sensitivity to whatever's going on with your climate/environment
right now, but again, if nothing has notably changed, it's probably
not a topical or inhalant allergy either.

What were you feeding, what are you feeding now? What has changed in
her life? Parasites? Dry, overheated rooms? New carpet? Cleaners?
Frostbite? You have to consider everything.

Since we don't have the details you do, we can't do more than tell
you to investigate. So...investigate and see what you discover.

And then let us know!
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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3. Help Please!
Posted by: "Anntiga@aol.com" Anntiga@aol.com anntiga
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:42 pm ((PST))

You are all so knowledgeable! I have checked through the archives and I
must not be putting in the right words.

I remember a long time ago someone posted a chart or a link to a chart that
shows how vets estimate a dog's age based on the condition of its teeth.

Of course, all the raw fed dogs were one year old per the chart.

Does anyone have that link?

I want to use it to show a non-believer one of the wonderful ways that raw
feeding helps dogs.

Thank you!

Ann Gaskell
Norman (Perfect teeth, thank you!)
San Francisco Peninsula, CA, USA

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Messages in this topic (1)
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4a. Re: panting
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:43 pm ((PST))

Hi Sheila,

This comes up every so often--you might search the archives for past
posts. It seems that some dogs do pant more for a bit in the
beginning. Not sure why. These meals are more work? Something to do
with changes going on in the digestive system? Is yours also drinking
more water? If so, you might want to make sure there isn't added
salt/broth/flavorings in the meat you're buying (check the fine
print). But that may have nothing to do with it.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "sheila" <schatzee@...> wrote:
>
> Have had the dogs on raw for about two weeks and noticed my male
seems to be panting more than usual. Is this a normal occurance. sheila

Messages in this topic (8)
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5a. skinny dogs
Posted by: "Diana Jones" dianajones@hughes.net msmanchester2003
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:43 pm ((PST))

I have been having the same problem with my manchesters. Active dogs,
cold weather, feeding high percentage of vension lately. Everyone
looks very skinny as they are burning any fat to stay warm or running
it off during the day in their runs. Mind you they get beef heart,
kidneys, liver, chicken, beef on a daily basis. So, I have added
ground beef with fat in it to help with the weight issue. Plus I have
started giving them more chicken than the vension. Seems to be
helping.

Any thing else to help? I do not want to add any carbs because of
being raw and loving it. Any suggestions,Chris?

Diana

Burleson, Texas

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: skinny dogs
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:52 pm ((PST))

"Diana Jones" <dianajones@...> wrote:
> Mind you they get beef heart,
> kidneys, liver, chicken, beef on a daily basis. So, I have added
> ground beef with fat in it to help with the weight issue. Plus I
have
> started giving them more chicken than the vension. Seems to be
> helping.
>
> Any thing else to help?
*****
Fat.
Add fat.
Add lots of fat.

Generally speaking, except for the ground beef with fat, you're
feeding a fairly lean menu. Add pork, pork is a great one for fat.
If you're trimming fat from the heart, don't. If you're buying
trimmed heart, find a wholesaler and buy untrimmed heart. If you're
plucking fat from the chicken, don't. If you pulling fat from the
kidneys (that white stuff), don't. If you're feeding lean beef, feed
fattier beef like brisket or chuck.

I would always feed more venison than chicken if I had more venison
than chicken to feed, I guarantee. Don't cut back on venison, just
add fat.

Once you have got more fat on the menu, you can increase the amount
you feed as long as you add another meal to spread it out, otherwise
you may just produce loose stools, which--while not necessarily bad--
will undermine your goal of putting calories in and keeping them in.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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6a. Re: New to raw (sorta), need help.
Posted by: "life.therapies" alison.stubing@sbcglobal.net life.therapies
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:58 pm ((PST))

MODERATOR'S NOTE: SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.

Thanks to everyone for their advice. My Dobie had a full panel done in
Nov. Everything showed up better than average health. I need specific
suggestions for what has more fat and more meat. I have available
goat, chicken, fish, beef. What parts have more fat? Fatty meats? He
eats fairly fast does that make a difference?

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

6b. Re: New to raw (sorta), need help.
Posted by: "Lauren Funaiole" LFUNAIOL@SIMIVALLEY.ORG lfunaiol
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:07 pm ((PST))

Pork! Lamb! Turkey! Seriously, pork is great for providing high calorie meals at a reasonable price. I usually feed pork picnic roast, pork shoulder, pork ribs, or boneless pork cheek meat and always pay about $0.99 a pound for it.

Lauren Funaiole

>>> "life.therapies" <alison.stubing@sbcglobal.net> 12/18/2007 1:53 PM >>>

MODERATOR'S NOTE: SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

6c. Re: New to raw (sorta), need help.
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:23 pm ((PST))

Great...so just start adding more meat and fat. Chris just listed various
options in a message with a subject line of "skinny dogs". Lamb and pork
are probably the best. Pork should be available anywhere and is quite
economical so that might be a good place to start. I think beef cheeks are
also fairly fatty.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "life.therapies" <alison.stubing@sbcglobal.net>

Messages in this topic (6)
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7a. Re: Quick stool question
Posted by: "adkjoe17" j2dope17@yahoo.com adkjoe17
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:07 pm ((PST))

Sandee Lee wrote:

> Joe,
>
Time to begin
> adding in some nice red meat and a bit of organs.
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang

What do you suggest for red meat? I have some lamb or I could get
some beef. I had been planning on adding variety I was just taking it
slow and making shore she was used to things.

Joe

Messages in this topic (12)
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7b. Re: Quick stool question
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:19 pm ((PST))

Whatever you have available. Lamb is perfect...or beef, pork....generally
puppies can eat variety right from the beginning.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "adkjoe17" <j2dope17@yahoo.com>

What do you suggest for red meat? I have some lamb or I could get
some beef. I had been planning on adding variety I was just taking it
slow and making shore she was used to things.

Messages in this topic (12)
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7c. Re: Quick stool question
Posted by: "adkjoe17" j2dope17@yahoo.com adkjoe17
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:10 pm ((PST))

Sandee Lee wrote:
>
> Whatever you have available. Lamb is perfect...or beef,
pork....generally
> puppies can eat variety right from the beginning.

I don't have to add a bit to the chicken first to get her used to it
do I? Can I just give her a big hunk of lamb for one of her meals
without chicken?

Joe

Messages in this topic (12)
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7d. Re: Quick stool question
Posted by: "Cdandp2@aol.com" Cdandp2@aol.com cdandp
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:10 pm ((PST))

I've got a "mixed" poo question. My guy puts out really tiny turds varying
from day to day from the calcified crumblies to really soft, very dark
squishy kinds of emissions.

However, the food doesn't really vary that much. In other words, I don't
really see a connection between what comes out and what when in in terms of
bone vs. organs, etc like I've been reading about on this list for some time.

Also, from time to time (about 2-3 times over 9 months) he's "lost it" in
the kitchen in the middle of the night and I wake up to find a mixture of
pudding poop little deposits in some areas and these hard crumbly deposits in the
other...both from the same poop? I've seen that outdoors as well...it seems
like he's storing things in there and just dropping them altogether if that's
possible??

Anyway, do I need to worry here? He does exert considerable energy to get
them out (mostly) and kind of walks around in a squat when he's ready
sometimes covery a yard or more before he gets anything out.

Geez I love my dog.

Carol

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Messages in this topic (12)
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7e. Re: Quick stool question
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:34 pm ((PST))

You could do it either way. I would imagine you are feeding 3 meals a day?
If so, either feed two chicken and one lamb...or add a bit of lamb to a
couple of the chicken meals. The absolutely worst thing that will happen is
loose stools! :))

Have you read these messages I have posted previously from other puppy
feeders?
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/135757
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/135847
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/137170

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "adkjoe17" <j2dope17@yahoo.com>
I don't have to add a bit to the chicken first to get her used to it
do I? Can I just give her a big hunk of lamb for one of her meals
without chicken?

Messages in this topic (12)
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8. Please help me prepare to attend home butcher of 2 pigs....
Posted by: "Dawn" draine9543@gmail.com dawnsdogs2004
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:10 pm ((PST))

I have been reading that pork is controversial....
true? un-true?

I am invited to spend a day with an Amish family,
they are butchering 2 pigs...I can have everything that they
normally throw into pails and bring out to the woods.

I need a plan...LOL! Is pork tripe good? Are you only supposed to
feed beef tripe? How will I know which part is tripe?
(other then the smell) I am going to bring a couple saw horses, meat
cleaver, packing paper and my grinder, grind and
package on the spot. Bring home and freeze.

I have not posted for several months...I am the gal with the Boxer who
has a bum jaw and had surgery for a jaw deformity, his jaw is only
hinged on 1 side (just want to clarify that so we can stay on track)

Thank you for all the help.... ~~~Dawn~~~

Messages in this topic (1)
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9a. reflux problem
Posted by: "Amy Maywald" amy1k@patmedia.net lovgoldens
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:10 pm ((PST))

Hi Jennifer,

My 5.5 year old female Golden Ginger has this too! She gets the "gulps" as we call it. She starts to swallow heavily and smack her lips, sometimes when it gets bad white foam starts to come out of her mouth. You can smell the stomach juices and it's pretty nasty. When I switched from BARF to raw feeding, she got a lot better but it still happens. I'm assuming it was eliminating the veggies that made the improvement. Beef, pork organs and lamb make the gulps much worse. She will bark and cry to go out anywhere between midnight and 4am to eat grass, which she will usually throw it up if I let her eat to her hearts content. Her stomach makes some very loud noises during the gulps. I have been sticking with turkey and chicken since they only give her mild gulps a few times a week. My other 2 goldens are loving the variety of meats but poor Ging can't take them. She is being treated by a homeopathic vet. She's UTD on blood tests, they would have seen issues with pancreatitis if she had any, right? Also, we adopted her about 1.5 years ago. The original owners fed her Alpo and everything they ate, she ate :(

She weighed almost 100 lbs then, now she's a healthy 59 lbs :) I still try her on different meats on nights I don't need a full nights sleep.

I'd be tempted to try your trick though!
Amy

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
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9b. Re: reflux problem
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:57 pm ((PST))

Hi, Jennifer!
Sorry to be duplicating my suggestions. Sometimes its hard
to remember who has which dog and what their problems are. : (

I'm not sure what to recommend, I'm stymied.

You could try to offer her a small snack of a couple chunks of meat or a
chicken foot to chew up or ls/lf broth when this occurs. I'd recommend you
add SEBP too, but you've said it doesn't help.

Best I can come up with.

TC
Giselle

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
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10a. Re: Wow people are nutz!
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:10 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "geraldinebutterfield"
<gbutterflied@...> wrote:
>
> Isn¡¦t it mind-blowing!!??!! I sometimes feel like comparing it to
> trying to explain to people why humans should eat fresh food instead
> of a Big Mac!!

I have a serious question ... If I buy a 1/4 pounder at McDonalds or a
Whopper and Burger king, what is the difference in the meat from the
ground beef I buy at the gocery store?

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (14)
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11.1. Re: Constipation
Posted by: "spricketysprock" jess.hamway@gmail.com spricketysprock
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:46 pm ((PST))

I'm confused as to why everyone is suggesting less bone... For my dog,
more bone makes him poop more and it comes out crumbly and not hard at
all. If I feed all meat it seems like it's all digested or something
and he poops very little. Maybe every dog is different and you should
experiment to see what works best...? Or if there is something that
puts your dog towards the runny side (I'm thinking fish), perhaps feed
a little bit of that everyday to help balance things. If he's been
this way since puppyhood he probably has something off in his
digestive system.

Jess & Toby

Messages in this topic (58)
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11.2. Re: Constipation
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:54 pm ((PST))

Crumbly means you are feeding too much bone. The goal isn't to make them
poop more...it's to feed appropriately and that means lots and lots of meat
and a little bone. The beauty of feeding raw is the food is mostly
utilized, resulting in little poop.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "spricketysprock" <jess.hamway@gmail.com>

Messages in this topic (58)
________________________________________________________________________

11.3. Re: Constipation
Posted by: "Sherrel Leininger" meawolf50@yahoo.com meawolf50
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:05 pm ((PST))

Evo is a prepared dog food put out by Innova.

Sherrel

----- Original Message ----
From: bluegracepwd <janea@tpg.com.au>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2007 11:17:10 AM
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: Constipation

Hold on a minute - what the heck is Evo? Isn't this a commercial food
product? This has absolutely no part in an appropriate raw diet.

Why are you feeding ground food?

I think the issues you're seeing and very easily explained.

- Jane

____________________________________________________________________________________
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Messages in this topic (58)
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________________________________________________________________________

12a. Ready to go to next level of raw?!
Posted by: "marge" marge_moriarty17551@yahoo.com marge_moriarty17551
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:05 pm ((PST))

I have been feeding raw for one week now and I am feeling a bit more
relaxed (just a bit). I have stayed with chicken..the last few days
using backs in the morning, got some meaty ones, and using breast
meat in evening. I do have thighs and used them earlier but they are
large. I have been splitting backs and breasts since my guys are
smaller. My one mini poodle 8yrs, is doing great and for the first
time since we adopted him in 7/06 he actually had small, normally
formed stools. His stools have always been VERY frequent and soft.
The older mini P is 10..he has been more on the costipated side since
adoption. Now he is either constipated or very loose. I have been
regulating this with more chicken meat in pm...giving the other dog
the bonier pieces.

The wonderful thing is that the older one who has never been
interested in food...k***ble or human is excited for meal time.
Tonight we were shocked to even see him lick a dish my husband had
set on the floor after eating. He has never begged for food and never
licked a plate!! I usually clean globs of mucous out of his eyes
daily and the last three days...NOTHING!!!!! Clean eyes.

I do wish he had a regular bowel movement before I go to the next
step...but then again, he seems happy, not uncomfortable...and maybe
the slow intro of other food will get him going.

You all are great....such patience with the constant influx of
newbies ...we all ask the same thing...over and over and over.
Archives are definitely helpful and probably save a lot of other
emails. Thanks all. I am thrilled to watch my guys enjoy food and
thrilled to know they are getting healthy.

Marge M

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

12b. Re: Ready to go to next level of raw?!
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:10 pm ((PST))

Marge,

I don't see any problem adding a bit of sirloin, or any other new protein.
The very worst that could happen is a bit of loose stools so if that doesn't
scare you, go for it! If he continues having issues down the road, you
might need to think about a good digestive enzyme but for now I'd just feed
the guy and see how he does. Nice to hear they are both enjoying their new
diet. :)

Beef bones pretty much aren't edible. Slabs of ribs can be fun and provide
good tooth cleaning in the process of removing the bits of meat, gristle,
etc., but they aren't fed for bone content. You'll want to stick to softer
bones for that...and remember you only need around 10% overall so that's not
much. You can easily get that from chicken, pork, fish, etc. and stick to
using beef for their meaty meals.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "marge" <marge_moriarty17551@yahoo.com>

I do wish he had a regular bowel movement before I go to the next
step...but then again, he seems happy, not uncomfortable...and maybe
the slow intro of other food will get him going.

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

13a. Need help with puppy
Posted by: "Randy" rrostie@gmail.com rjrostie
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:40 pm ((PST))

I posted this question to the rawpup group but I just got a few
conflicting answers, and it was sugested I ask the question here where
there are more experienced members.

I started my 4 month puppy (Catahoula Leopard Dog,) on rawfeeding on
Friday. I gave him a quarter chicken twice a day. When he went outside
on Saturday his poop was very soft with some liquid at the end. He
also threw up a few times over the weekend. I came home Monday to let
him out and the inside of his sky kennel that he sleeps in was covered
in liquid poop.

He is 35 pounds, and I expect him to weigh about 70 when he is full
grown. Could the problem be that he is eating too much at one time? I
am feeding him a little less than 2 pounds a day.

He isn't acting like he feels sick as far as I can tell.

I also feed our 15 year old Lhasa Apso 1.5 pounds of chicken a day,
over two meals and she is having similar problems.

On advice I got from the rawpup list I gave them some canned pumpkin
with their food today, and that seemed to help firm up his poop a bit.
I am also splitting his food into 3 feedings.

Randy R

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

13b. Re: Need help with puppy
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:01 pm ((PST))

Randy,

If he seems to be feeling fine otherwise, yes, I would assume he is either
getting too much food or too much at one time. I think feeding smaller more
frequent meals is a great idea. And he may not need 3%.

Sounds like a lot of food for your Lhasa Apso also. Are you feeding her 3%
also? If so, cut back to 2% and see how she does. I am assuming she is
otherwise acting healthy?

Pumpkin is never a good idea because it just masks the symptoms without
resolving the problem. Best to tweak the diet!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Randy" <rrostie@gmail.com>

He is 35 pounds, and I expect him to weigh about 70 when he is full
grown. Could the problem be that he is eating too much at one time? I
am feeding him a little less than 2 pounds a day.

He isn't acting like he feels sick as far as I can tell.

I also feed our 15 year old Lhasa Apso 1.5 pounds of chicken a day,
over two meals and she is having similar problems.

On advice I got from the rawpup list I gave them some canned pumpkin
with their food today, and that seemed to help firm up his poop a bit.
I am also splitting his food into 3 feedings.

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12393

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Duck anyone?
From: Sonja

2a. New to raw (sorta), need help.
From: tallyhoally
2b. Re: New to raw (sorta), need help.
From: costrowski75
2c. Re: New to raw (sorta), need help.
From: Sandee Lee

3a. Re: I NEED SOME HELP FROM ALL YOU EXPERT OUT THERE!!!
From: Tina Berry
3b. Re: I NEED SOME HELP FROM ALL YOU EXPERT OUT THERE!!!
From: tizianaruff

4a. Re: Wow people are nutz!
From: Tina Berry
4b. Re: Wow people are nutz!
From: A. L. W.
4c. Re: Wow people are nutz!
From: Sandee Lee
4d. Re: Wow people are nutz!
From: krheintgen
4e. Re: Wow people are nutz!
From: Sandee Lee

5a. Re: reflux problem
From: jennifer_hell

6a. Re: puppy stages
From: Tina Berry

7a. Re: Deer Meat...So sorry new to all of this?
From: Tina Berry

8a. Re: {Raw Feeding} Question
From: Brandi Bryant

9.1. Re: Constipation
From: shooflyf
9.2. Re: Constipation
From: costrowski75
9.3. Re: Constipation
From: Sandee Lee

10. {Raw Feeding} Scored!!! What do you think?
From: Brandi Bryant

11a. panting
From: sheila
11b. Re: panting
From: atmanandadevotee

12a. Re: Quick stool question
From: Sandee Lee

13a. Re: fasting question -- Can we call it "not eating?"
From: krheintgen

14. skin red?
From: addicted 2 my pc

15a. Re: ready to throw the towel...
From: ma_petite_gazelle

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Duck anyone?
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:57 am ((PST))

>>>>>All I can figure is perhaps one or the other, or both, went out of buisness and these are leftovers?
http://www.ansci.umn.edu/poultry/student_resources/duckco.htm

Nope, the company is alive and kicking and still supplying us with duck.

Sonja

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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________________________________________________________________________

2a. New to raw (sorta), need help.
Posted by: "tallyhoally" alison.stubing@sbcglobal.net tallyhoally
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:12 am ((PST))

I am new to your group and need advice. I fed my 11yr Dobie raw when
he was 5-7 yrs and it was great. Life got in the way and now he's back
on it. I started him on chicken only for weeks then added other meats.
He has always eaten it well. He is now eating chicken carcasses(heart
gizzards, liver included), goat meat(bones,meat,liver), beef
(tongue,tripe,skin)all from the meat market(so no head or feet). I
think I have a good ratio. He gets an occasional egg 2-3/wk. He is now
down to 82lbs. I need him at least 92, which is still on the thin side
for him. My vet and I both agree he is too thin. I am feeding him 3%+
of his ideal weight/day. He is eating it all well. Besides the lack of
weight he is in good health, bright, alert, good poop, no vomiting,
good appetite. I not sure I know what I'm doing and it does not help to
ask the vet. I have read a few books but they mostly seem to be trying
to convince people it's okay to feed raw. I'm convinced, but I need
more how to. I need to know what to feed to help put on some pounds.
Alison

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: New to raw (sorta), need help.
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:53 am ((PST))

"tallyhoally" <alison.stubing@...> wrote:
He is now eating chicken carcasses(heart
> gizzards, liver included), goat meat(bones,meat,liver), beef
> (tongue,tripe,skin)all from the meat market(so no head or feet). I
> think I have a good ratio. He gets an occasional egg 2-3/wk. He is
now
> down to 82lbs. I need him at least 92, which is still on the thin
side
> for him. My vet and I both agree he is too thin.
*****
If there are no health issues--and at 11 years a more or less
conventionally-raised dog may be having health problems typically
dismissed as "old age--then more meat and fattier meat fed more often
should add weight. (Except for tongue, the meat you are feeding now
is generally quite lean.) Do not simply increase the size of his
existing meals; the sudden change will almost certainly cause
digestive upset and a dog that needs to gain weight doesn't need
loose stools.

Give him more food on a daily basis, but divvy it up into more
meals. If you can feed as many as four daily meals, you will
probably avoid the effects of dietary overload.

I recommend you discuss with your vet a "senior panel" to make sure
your dog is otherwise fit before you add fat to his diet. An
impaired pancreas (caused by unidentified health problems) will not
be happy with a sudden influx of fat. And if the pancreas ain't
happy, ain't nobody happy.

Let us know how this progresses.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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2c. Re: New to raw (sorta), need help.
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:08 pm ((PST))

Alison,

If you are certain there are no medical issues that would explain his weight
loss, feed more meat and fat, more food. It's hard to tell exactly what
your ratios are but 10% bone isn't much and the remainder of the diet should
consist of lots of nice red meat and the accompanying fat! :)

Certainly sounds like he is doing well otherwise...did your vet run any
labwork just to make certain there isn't something medically going on?

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "tallyhoally" <alison.stubing@sbcglobal.net>

He is now eating chicken carcasses(heart
gizzards, liver included), goat meat(bones,meat,liver), beef
(tongue,tripe,skin)all from the meat market(so no head or feet). I
think I have a good ratio. He gets an occasional egg 2-3/wk. He is now
down to 82lbs. I need him at least 92, which is still on the thin side
for him. My vet and I both agree he is too thin. I am feeding him 3%+
of his ideal weight/day. He is eating it all well. Besides the lack of
weight he is in good health, bright, alert, good poop, no vomiting,
good appetite.

Messages in this topic (3)
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________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: I NEED SOME HELP FROM ALL YOU EXPERT OUT THERE!!!
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:27 am ((PST))

"The problem started with my other Weim, now 1 1/2 year old. I wanted to put
her on the same diet. She simply does not like it. I have been trying for
over 1 month. She vomits, she has diarrhea, and the only thing that she
would eat is a little chop meat. "

If the vomiting and diarrhea started when you started the raw diet, and she
was fine on kibble, I would say she's probably medically fine then. As
mentioned, 1 month is not very long, I would go back to chicken only for 2
months atleast. You might try cutting slits in the meat for the older one,
or even a quick searing in a pan just to brown the outside to see if she'll
eat it that way then gradually move to all raw. You might even try frozen
(that's the only way one of my males will eat liver).
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: I NEED SOME HELP FROM ALL YOU EXPERT OUT THERE!!!
Posted by: "tizianaruff" queentiz@msn.com tizianaruff
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:03 pm ((PST))

EDITED BY MODERATOR. TRIM YOUR MESSAGES!

Thank you so much guys I will try your suggestions and I will keep
you posted. These kids...will drive me crazy...but I loved them!! you
know that is of course!!

Tiziana

Messages in this topic (6)
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4a. Re: Wow people are nutz!
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:28 am ((PST))

"So my reply was "That was rude, uncalled for and vague. Educate yourself
before you attack others for there beliefs in the future.""

Bravo! I wouldn't have been so nice.... good job and good for you for
feeding raw!!!
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (13)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: Wow people are nutz!
Posted by: "A. L. W." chenneoue@yahoo.com chenneoue
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:57 am ((PST))

MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE REMEMBER TO TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.

My reply would have been: "No, and/are you?"

Its really not surprising, people online are always ready ready to
voice their opinion and ruffle someone's feathers. I wouldn't worry
about it. :)

Amanda

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "redangelbordeaux" <Erika@...>
wrote:
> Some luney sends me an email that said only "Trying to kill off your
> dogs?"
>
> What nerve this person has! Obviously has no life of his own to do
> such a thing in the middle of the night to boot, lol!
>
> So my reply was "That was rude, uncalled for and vague. Educate
> yourself before you attack others for there beliefs in the future."
>
> What would you do? I'm sure I'll probably get other similar replies
> since this nut showed up so quick!
>
> Erika :)
>

Messages in this topic (13)
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4c. Re: Wow people are nutz!
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:51 am ((PST))

That's one of my favorite quotes also...but it's not anonymous. It is a
quote from John Loeffler! :)

Back to the original post from Erika...you are not the first to have been
blasted when mentioning raw on craigslist. I think the best advice is to
not use that word! :))

Seriously, all you get is grief and especially if you are looking for food
from those cleaning out their freezers, many will refuse to provide you with
food if you are feeding raw. You can use phrase such as "home-prepared" and
some have mentioned that because of health problems their vet has
recommended a home made diet, etc. That seems to be readily accepted, but
use that evil RAW word and you may as well cut your throat!! <g>

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Shirley" <ssthunderpony@yahoo.com>

~ ~ Your failure to be informed does not make me a wacko. ~anon~

Messages in this topic (13)
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4d. Re: Wow people are nutz!
Posted by: "krheintgen" krheintgen@comcast.net krheintgen
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:08 pm ((PST))

...you are not the first to have been
> blasted when mentioning raw on craigslist. I think the best advice
is to
> not use that word! ..... You can use phrase such as "home-
prepared" and
> some have mentioned that because of health problems their vet has
> recommended a home made diet, etc.

Yea -- When I post for freezer burned meat on my local Free Cycle I
just say I am using to "make dog food." A true enough statement, even
if all I do to "make" the food is unwrap it...

Kathy R.

Messages in this topic (13)
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4e. Re: Wow people are nutz!
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:29 pm ((PST))

They don't need all the gory details, do they???? :))

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "krheintgen" <krheintgen@comcast.net>

Yea -- When I post for freezer burned meat on my local Free Cycle I
just say I am using to "make dog food." A true enough statement, even
if all I do to "make" the food is unwrap it...

Messages in this topic (13)
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________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: reflux problem
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:32 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jennifer_hell"
> <jenniferhell@> wrote:
> >
> > What can I give my girl when she has a bout of heartburn?
>
> What has the vet done to determine it is heartburn(reflux)?
>
She has done a blood test ( I don't know what it is called), and
questioned me etc.
> I don't think there is a such thing as too much acid a few hours
> after eating. The dog needs all the acid it can get to digest the
> food in its tummy. I think it's possible to have too much acid a
> few hours before eating but not after. Thats where the bile vomit
> comes from.
She doesn't vomit or bile. It's about five hours or so after dinner.
Just like it is for me (I have a reflux problem too =( ).

> Have you tried feeding her when she does this? If in fact there
> really is too much acid in the stomach, feeding would take care of
> it.
Yes. Something like porridge helps her, a few spoonfuls. It's very
finely rolled oats, with warm water. I don't want to give her grains
though, and am looking for something else.

> I don't have any idea what the problem is but I just don't see too
> much acid as the cause. I wish I had some constructive suggestions.
>

Hey, your empathy helps already. =)

Jennifer

Messages in this topic (5)
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________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: puppy stages
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:57 am ((PST))

"chicken drumsticks, wings, carcasses, necks, turkey necks, lamb liver and
hearts."

More meat - even if you have to cut it off the drumsticks since they are
usually on sale - but you want about 80% meat to 10% bone and 10% organs.
Did the hair thinning start when you started feeding raw or before? I would
make sure it's not mange or an infection, if it's just allergies it takes
about 90 days to see any effects of the raw diet and even then it's slowly.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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7a. Re: Deer Meat...So sorry new to all of this?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:04 am ((PST))

"Now I know he has to hang the carcus for 5 days (this was saturday), but
what about the things that are still in the cold garage in a dustbin
(head/legs/skin), can these be fed as well, and how long do they need to be
in the freezer"

They only have to hang to drain the blood out for human consumption; I would
butcher it up now and throw it in the freezer. I feed mine fresh and
frozen. You can feed all the organs too. Leg bones I let them chew until
the meat is gone then take the bone away - leg bones are teeth breakers.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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________________________________________________________________________

8a. Re: {Raw Feeding} Question
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:08 am ((PST))

EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.

Thank you so much for answering my questions and referring me to the
websites...It has been very helpful!!! I think I will be doing some
ordering and see how it works out for me!

Again thank you so much -
THIS GROUP RULES!!!

Brandi
Bartlesville, OK

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9.1. Re: Constipation
Posted by: "shooflyf" shooflyf@yahoo.com shooflyf
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:09 am ((PST))

> Second, don't worry about her dietary bone. She can go days without
> bone (weeks even). Continue to feed her fatty meats and make sure

Hmm, so i don't need to aim for 10% bone over time? That's what i've
been reading everywhere.

> are including "rich" meats like heart and liver. Lube those tubes.
> fattier diet will also add weight, as will feeding more food in
> general.

Yes, i'm doing that, as well as putting warm water on top of her meals
so she'll be drinking some "soup" with each meal to increase water intake.

> Make sure she's getting enough exercise (yes, with a BC this is often
> hard to do).

No problem there, this is a working sheepdog on my farm.

> If she's on meds, check to see if constipation is a side effect.

Nope, none.

> And of course, are you perhaps expecting the same sort of regularity
> that kibble provides? Is this her discomfort we're addressing, or
> yours?

The first time this happened i had to stick my finger up her rear to
help her after hours and hours of straining, and after being
"unplugged" she produced a massive amount of stool. On the second and
third occasions, it took her a couple of hours to produce rock hard
stool, and she was her biting at herself and crying while trying to
go. So neither of us are very comfortable with this scenario. :-)
She's a dog that has tended toward a bit of constipation her whole
life, from puppyhood on, so i've seen her just simply "having
trouble". This is something causing her big discomfort.

-Robin French

Messages in this topic (55)
________________________________________________________________________

9.2. Re: Constipation
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:34 am ((PST))

"shooflyf" <shooflyf@...> wrote:
> Hmm, so i don't need to aim for 10% bone over time? That's what
i've
> been reading everywhere.
*****
Ten percent over time means over time. And of course 10% is not very
much at all. A meal for an adult 50lb dog that's "good" on a pound
of food a day may contain as little as 1.6oz of edible bone to hit
that "10%" figure. Over a week's time, that tallies to just over 11
ounces. Eleven ounces of dietary bone compared to 112 ounces of meat
and organs.

I am not suggesting you look at her menu this way, but I *am* saying
if you have to leave bone out of the picture for a while it doesn't
take long to "catch up" again when you do feed bone. Catherine
(morledzep) has a dog that stoppers up on very little bone; she feeds
I believe small amounts just several times a week. The dog is doing
well digestively and nutritionally.

> No problem there, this is a working sheepdog on my farm.
*****
No, no lack of work there!
Might she be eating sheep dung? I don't know that fresh dung would
stop up a dog but dried sheep goobers and raisinets may. Worth
considering? Hard to say.

> The first time this happened i had to stick my finger up her rear to
> help her after hours and hours of straining, and after being
> "unplugged" she produced a massive amount of stool. On the second
and
> third occasions, it took her a couple of hours to produce rock hard
> stool, and she was her biting at herself and crying while trying to
> go. So neither of us are very comfortable with this scenario. :-)
*****
Yes, I can see this is not just your expectation! Do you give her
ample opportunities to defecate? Perhaps she is putting the job off
for fear of missing something. Perhaps it is anxiety that keeps her
from pooping in a timely manner?

I had a hyper fieldbred Lab that lived to retrieve. The only thing
better than retrieving was eating. When working her, I would have to
air her with strict attention well before her turn, otherwise she
would not relieve herself til everything was quite over and done
with.

> She's a dog that has tended toward a bit of constipation her whole
> life, from puppyhood on, so i've seen her just simply "having
> trouble".
*****
How long has she been rawfed? And how did you deal with her
constipation pre-raw?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (55)
________________________________________________________________________

9.3. Re: Constipation
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:58 am ((PST))

If she is having dry, hard, difficult to pass stools feed more meat. If
she's thin, feed more meat! :)

I don't know what you mean by "not much" bone, but the recommended 10% is a
tiny amount when looking at the overall diet.

And get rid of the EVO...it has no benefit and could be contributing to her
problems.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "shooflyf" <shooflyf@yahoo.com>

I switched her completely over and
have really restricted the amount of bone with her, enough so that i
actually worry that's she's not getting enough calcium. The second
time, there really was no good explanation for it. She was on 100%
raw, not much bone, higher fat beef and pork, 10% organ meat. This
weekend she was constipated again, after a meal of a small amount of
Evo soaked in a lot of water, mixed with ground organ meat/high fat
beef mixture. None of these resulted in chalky white poop, just
really hard and dry.

Can anyone offer suggestions or ideas? I need to increase this dog's
food as well, she's a little thin.

Messages in this topic (55)
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________________________________________________________________________

10. {Raw Feeding} Scored!!! What do you think?
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:07 am ((PST))

OK - I checked out the prices at our local custom butchering plant - here
are some prices let me know if you think these are high -

Flank steak - $2.99/lb
Skirt steak - $2.99/lb
Round Steak - $3.49/lb
Arm Roast - $2.59/lb
Chuck Roast - $2.59/lb
Rump Roast - $2.59/lb
Bricket - $2.49/lb

And the big one!!!! .99/lb for beef hearts!!!!

I'm going to be definetly put in an order from prey4pets.com - thank again
for that website...I am excited to see if my dogs will get into whole
prey!!!

THANK YOU AGAIN SO MUCH - I'm so excited!!!

Brandi
Bartlesville OK

--
Brandi
Bartlesville, Ok

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11a. panting
Posted by: "sheila" schatzee@comporium.net osborne_sheila
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:07 am ((PST))

Have had the dogs on raw for about two weeks and noticed my male seems to be panting more than usual. Is this a normal occurance. sheila

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11b. Re: panting
Posted by: "atmanandadevotee" atmanandadevotee@yahoo.fr atmanandadevotee
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:06 pm ((PST))

MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.

I noticed that since my dogs are raw-fed, they want to sleep outside
(before they enjoyed sleeping by the fire place) they are not panting
but they don't want anymore to be in the house as soon as it gets cold

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12a. Re: Quick stool question
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:09 am ((PST))

Joe,

If you are feeding only chicken, that is a lot of bone. Time to begin
adding in some nice red meat and a bit of organs.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "adkjoe17" <j2dope17@yahoo.com>

Been feeding my 13 week old Siberian whole chickens for about 2 weeks
now. She seems like she is having trouble pooping. Sometimes it
comes out solid sometimes loose. She seems like she is taking a long
time to poop though, she sits in her stance for about 3-5 minutes. I
know for shore I'm not giving her too much bone so I don't see why she
would be constipated.

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13a. Re: fasting question -- Can we call it "not eating?"
Posted by: "krheintgen" krheintgen@comcast.net krheintgen
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:22 am ((PST))

I guess she is sort of mini fasting
> herself… not imposed by me.

Not to belabor the point -- but she is NOT fasting... she is simply
not eating. Do you say that you are "fasting" when you refuse an
offer of food? No, you are simply not hungry. If you have a big
breakfast and skip lunch are you fasting? No, you are trying not to
gain weight - or you are still full. Are you a person who "cleanses"
your body by not eating for 2 days? Or, you do not eat during day
light hours for Ramadan, or on Good Friday or whatever.. Or, you are
having surgury tomorrow and cannot eat after a certan time .. That is
a fast!

The word "FAST" has no meaning for animals. A FAST is to abstain or
deprive oneself of food. The connotation is that one fasts for a
purpose -- to avoid throwing up during surgery, as a penance, for
religious purposes and also some people fast to "cleanse" the body.
I am sure no wolf has ever fasted.

That same wolf however may go days without eating. Maybe he just
caught a huge meal and is STUFFED, and so is simply not hungry.
Maybe he can't catch anything, maybe there are too many wolves and
food is scarce. This is not a good thing. I do not think any of us
think it is advantageous to let our dogs not eat until they are
starving, jsut becasue sometimes this happens to wolves.

That said, some dogs like to gorge feed. Some do not. When my Sibe
eats a 4 pound pork roast I do not feed him for at least 2 or 3
days. He is not fasting. He most likely would not eat even if I
offerred it. He is a self regulating dog.

My ESS, she would eat a 4 pound pork roast everyday! She likes to
gorge. So, I let her. But then I do not feed her for a couple of
days, because she is already too fat. I am not fasting her. I am just
not feeding her. She has had enough, she does not need any more.

Perhaps this is all semantics, but the word FAST has an emotional
meaning that in not applicable to dogs. I do not think they are any
healthier eating gorge meals. The only benefit I see is that I do
not have to try to chop that giant pork roast into smaller pieces --
I give them the whole thing. They eat what they want.

And, they have to work really hard to eat! It is great excercise. It
is very satisying. A dog who is "always hungry" is not really
hungry -- they have been trained to act like they are. He can be
made less dependent on meals by letting him GORGE himself. He can be
made better by an irregular feeding schedule. But it is the timing
of the food, not the fact that there are times of no food, that are
the key.

Big meals have benefits, but those benefits do not include the days
spent not eating. The "not eating" is a side effect of the gorging.
It is not the purpose. You do not gorge feed so they will then not
eat. They do not eat so they can gorge and not get fat.

This is where the human intervention comes in. You have to know if
your dog will self regulate. If they do not (my ESS) then I have a
responsibility to be sure I do not feed her too soon after a gorge,
to be sure she does not get any fatter. If they do (my Sibe) maybe
you don't have to be so watchful, unless you do not want uneaten food
laying around and there are no other dogs to eat it. Lady Jane (ESS)
very often prances in with something I thought Bandit ate days ago...
So, I have to feed her less that day, or not at all the next day to
compensate for the extra calories she discovered in the yard!
And, I have to watch Bandit and pick up what he walks away from -- so
Lady Jane does not get two dinners. If she does get to it before me -
I do not take it away from her, I just do not feed her the next day.
*
*
*

>I will learn to understand and go with
> what comes natural for her.

YES -- but please, that will not include any "fasts."

Kathy R.
>

Messages in this topic (8)
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14. skin red?
Posted by: "addicted 2 my pc" mmoy1191@tpg.com.au jmoylan1952
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:04 pm ((PST))

Hi there
been feeding my Golden Retriever now for her whole life of 2 years next month she has been very healthy ,yesterday for the first time i noriced her belly is red?? could this be from
an allergy to mebe one of the meats im feeding?
Jen

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15a. Re: ready to throw the towel...
Posted by: "ma_petite_gazelle" gaelle6@rogers.com ma_petite_gazelle
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:05 pm ((PST))

Hi Jane,

Yes this is a good thing to think about, however I'm already using
minimal amount of products, e.g. I clean everything mostly with water
and vinegar, just a bit of furniture polish but he doesn't have access
to those surfaces. I also vaccuum the rugs often. I haven't changed
our laundry product for a few years, but I don't seem to notice him
reacting to it per se (the obvious patterns are with specific seasons,
certain foods, and when we go visit my in-laws who have carpet
everywhere).

As he's doing fine when he's just on chicken, I'm assuming I've been
able to control other environmental factors inside the house (fingers
crossed).

I do know he has reactions in the spring and the fall when he goes
outside and roll in the grass/pollen. So I'm just brushing him a lot
during these times and that seem to help. I still need to walk him and
let him have a good time outside, you know?

But thanks for the tips. I actually got rid of a lot of cleaning
products because of him, and I have to say it's healthier for us too...

Gaelle

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "sisterloui" <habershon@...> wrote:
>
> Just a little bit to add to all the good advice given so far.
>
> I know that this may be veering slightly off topic but along with
> dietary advice to combat the effect of the allergies. Have you done a
> general product test in your home. You know simple things like trying a
> different floor cleaner, furniture polish, or is he chewing certain
> grasses or weeds whilst out walking etc ?
>
> Sorry if you have already covered this, and I do hope you get to the
> root of the problem soon.
>
> Best wishes
> Jane
> (sisterloui uk)
>

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