Feed Pets Raw Food: Nov 6, 2007

Tuesday, November 6, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12249

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Husband thinks dog is still hungry
From: Morledzep@aol.com
1b. Re: Husband thinks dog is still hungry
From: kaebruney

2a. Re: Rotten eggs
From: Morledzep@aol.com
2b. Re: Rotten eggs
From: Cheryl Younesi

3.1. Re: still swallowing whole
From: delcaste

4a. Re: Anyone raise rabbits for feed?
From: Giselle

5a. Re: Diarrhea and vomiting seem unusual: opinions, please
From: sarahfalkner
5b. Re: Diarrhea and vomiting seem unusual: opinions, please
From: Giselle
5c. Re: Diarrhea and vomiting seem unusual: opinions, please
From: sarahfalkner

6a. Shoulder bones
From: krystal_brr
6b. Re: Shoulder bones
From: John and Jeni Blackmon

7a. Re: New Puppy Vomiting
From: Giselle

8a. Re: 5 Dogs New to Raw Two Weeks
From: Giselle

9a. Re: are pig's feet okay?
From: Giselle
9b. Re: are pig's feet okay?
From: Dawn Taylor
9c. price of turkey, chicken; freezer question
From: Penny Sanford Fikes
9d. Re: are pig's feet okay?
From: girlndocs

10a. Re: Pregnancy question again
From: diannem200400
10b. Re: Pregnancy question again
From: diannem200400

11a. Questions about preparing/packaging/freezing venison
From: Penny Sanford Fikes

12a. Re: 80/10/10 vs 'whole prey' -Large breed puppies
From: Loraine Jesse
12b. Re: 80/10/10 vs 'whole prey' -Large breed puppies
From: Sandee Lee
12c. Re: 80/10/10 vs 'whole prey' -Large breed puppies
From: Loraine Jesse
12d. Re: 80/10/10 vs 'whole prey' -Large breed puppies
From: Sandee Lee

13a. Re: Not a noob but i need help!
From: Loraine Jesse

Messages
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1a. Re: Husband thinks dog is still hungry
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 2:04 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 11/6/2007 6:39:00 AM Pacific Standard Time,
m.chelap@sbcglobal.net writes:

Dh is also worried about eventually fasting the dog. Do we feed him a
bigger meal the
day before a fast? Do most people fast the dog once a week?

Michelle,

tinier dogs often need more than the 2 - 3% recommended guideline. The best
thing to do is watch your dog and check his waist to see if he's gaining or
losing weight.

If he starts losing weight with what you're feeding now, then you need to
increase the amount he's being fed.

Dogs are naturally hungry all the time.. never let a dog tell you he's
hungry, he's lying.

As for fasting, there is no specific need to fast a dog if you're feeding the
same amount every day. some folks feed big food and skip days inbetween BIG
meals. Some folks feed big food one day and small meals the next day. it's
all in how you choose to feed your dog, and how your dog wants to eat.

I personally feed the dogs about every other day.. sometimes more when they
start looking skinny..

Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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1b. Re: Husband thinks dog is still hungry
Posted by: "kaebruney" kaebruney@yahoo.com kaebruney
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 4:15 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mmc2315" <m.chelap@...> wrote:

> Dh is worried that the dog seems "constantly hungry and wants more".
I'm saying we don't want an overweight dog, and feeding once a day
should be okay, and 2-3% of ideal body weight is what we are shooting
for.

I feed my rat terrier/chi mix almost 4% of his body weight a day
because I was told that smaller dogs need the additional food. He
still has a nice tight tuck and good muscle tone for such a little
guy. Maybe you can increase your feeding size by 1% and see if that
helps over several days.

> Dh is also worried about eventually fasting the dog. Do we feed
him a bigger meal the day before a fast? Do most people fast the dog
once a week?

I don't fast often, but when I do it's after a full feast day. The
dogs split a whole chicken often doubling their food volume in the
process.

Also, the day following their fast is usually the organ meal day as it
seems the only time I can get them to eat their organs in entirety.
Any sort of mixing or adding to another meals lets them get away
without eating it. *sigh*

Something that has helped me with the foraging effect - dog going
around the house as though he is looking for food, was to crate or put
the dogs out immediately after they finish eating. This helps to end
the feeding time and when they come back out all the food and bowls
are up for the night.

Tell the DH not to worry. A slim dog is a happy dog. :0)

Kae

Messages in this topic (6)
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2a. Re: Rotten eggs
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 2:10 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 11/6/2007 10:44:15 AM Pacific Standard Time,
bpskarma@yahoo.com writes:

I know they can eat old meat but how about old eggs?

Taj,

if they are just past the expiration date on the box it's not a problem. if
they are so old that they are rotten on the inside.. then, no.. they aren't
even wolf chow at that point.

Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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2b. Re: Rotten eggs
Posted by: "Cheryl Younesi" CYounesi@mac.com cyounesi
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 4:00 pm ((PST))

Here's how to test whether an egg is still safe to be eaten by a human.
Fill a bowl with water (deep enough for the egg to sit on the bottom
with water covering 2 or more inches).
If the egg sits on the bottom on it's side, it's very fresh.
If the egg sits on the bottom, tip up towards the ceiling; it's still
okay to eat.
If the egg bounces a little, but is still sitting on the bottom,
basically; then it's okay to eat.
If the egg starts floating off the bottom, it may be iffy.
If the egg floats to the top, time to discard.
This is for raw eggs and for feeding to people. I'm thinking that if it
floats to the top, it's probably still okay to give to dogs????? What
does the group think?
Cheryl

Messages in this topic (5)
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3.1. Re: still swallowing whole
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 2:30 pm ((PST))

> Hi Silvina,
> You have learned to feed bigger portions. You asked and learned and
> fixed the problem. You have done a wonderful job for your gulper.
> You had the gumption to stick with it, and i think you have done a
> fantastic job with your dog. Now, do something nice for yourself.
> Relax. Permit yourself to release the past and focus on all the
> wonderful big meals ahead. KathyM

I needed that :), thanks, KathyM

Silvina

Messages in this topic (34)
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4a. Re: Anyone raise rabbits for feed?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 2:38 pm ((PST))

Hi, Jay!
I don't raise rabbits, or any critters right now, but there are
Yahoo! Groups email lists 'out there' for those that do. This is one;
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Meatrabbits/

I found this site just by Googling 'meat rabbits how to website';
http://www.rudolphsrabbitranch.com/rrr.htm

If buns prove not to be a viable proposition for you to feed your dogs, why
not research raising rodents, such as hamsters or guinea pigs? The
information is out there, if you just Google it. ^_^

Why don't you post over at raw chat? Thats where we go to discuss topics
that go OT for raw feeding.
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawChat/

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On 11/6/07, jaygaughan <jaygaughan@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Thank you everyone for your replies.
>
> Yes, I did think they bred like rabbits. I guess that's just a myth.
>
> I thought it was going to be just me putting a few cages together and
> letting them get to work multiplying.
>
> Maybe I'll raise Raccoons. Those things seem to breed like crazy around
> here. They ate our 3 Peeking ducks and this morning there were 6 of
> them in my yard for breakfast. Couple hanging off my bird feeders
> dropping hands full of seeds to their buddies.
>
> Jay
>
>
>

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Messages in this topic (10)
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5a. Re: Diarrhea and vomiting seem unusual: opinions, please
Posted by: "sarahfalkner" Sarah.Falkner@gmail.com sarahfalkner
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 3:02 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Andrea" <poketmouse45@...> wrote:
>
However, the first time my newf mix pup ate
> beef heart he went all out and ate the whole thing. He had
> freakishly loose stools that smelled horrible for about a day and a
> half and he wasn't much interested in food during that time.

Thanks, Andrea, that is helpful to know your dog's experience. Since we've added so many
things to the cats' diets over the past year with no troubles, and he loved the lamb heart last
week, I was having a hard time believing just a double-dose of lamb heart could make him
feel this lousy and for this long! Also, I'd thought the smell might indicate a pathogen. Well,
right now Henry's visiting the litterbox less and less, but he still doesn't want anything to
drink or nibble.

Best,

Sarah
& furry crew

Messages in this topic (5)
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5b. Re: Diarrhea and vomiting seem unusual: opinions, please
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 3:04 pm ((PST))

Hi, Sarah!
Poor Henry!

I'd offer plenty of broth, chicken or beef, low sodium/low fat of course, if
you use store bought. That should keep him from getting dehydrated. You
could also mix in some Slippery Elm Bark Powder to soothe his digestive
system.
I order it online, but you can get it loose or in caps from a health food
store.

This link lists sources for SEBP in the UK;
http://www.dealtime.co.uk/xDN-nutrition--herbs-slippery_elm
You might be able to suss out where to get it from the brand names.

If he won't drink it, you might want to use an eye dropper to give him a
couple tsp to give him the taste for it. I'd also confine him, under
supervision, so that he doesn't get into anything else if he starts feeling
hungry.

He may have gotten some bacterial infection from the cached meat, and you
may need to vet him anyway, but if he will take in the broth and SEBP, they
can help support him during his recovery.

Once he is able to keep solid food down, mixing SEBP into mince and feeding
him a couple small meatballs every few hours can soothe his irritated and
inflamed gut while getting nutritious meat into him.
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/145285

TC and let us know how Henry does!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

ps - We may get sent off to raw chat - if so, I'll see you there, or you can
PM me;
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawChat/

On 11/6/07, sarahfalkner <Sarah.Falkner@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hello! I also posted this on rawcat, sorry for duplicates.
>
> Sorry to add to the plethora of postings about diarrhea and vomiting!
> Newbies, please
> don't be alarmed! Let me just say upfront, this is unusual in our
> household, raw has been
> great!!!
>
> <snip>
>

I boiled a drumstick (removed the skin and fat first) in
> some water for about 10 minutes to flavor and warm the water to make it
> more appealing
> and add some electrolytes, strained and cooled it, and offered him some of
> that, but he is
> not interested. I imagine if I still had diarrhea, I wouldn't be
> interested either in anything
> that remotely smelled like food, but I thought it was worth a try. I will
> offer it again before
> we go to sleep, and of course, plain water is out all the time should he
> want it. Do people
> think that's ok or am I being too cavalier about dehydration?
>
> Hopefully, Henry will be a lot better tomorrow, and I will be able to
> offer him some plain
> bland chicken and keep him on that for a few days at least. But if anyone
> thinks I should
> take more or faster action, please let me know!
>
> Thanks!!!
>
> Sarah, hominid
> Henry & Ivan, felidae
> Quercus & Ilex, mustelidae
>
>
>

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Messages in this topic (5)
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5c. Re: Diarrhea and vomiting seem unusual: opinions, please
Posted by: "sarahfalkner" Sarah.Falkner@gmail.com sarahfalkner
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 5:03 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Giselle <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Sarah!
> Poor Henry!
>
> I'd offer plenty of broth, chicken or beef, low sodium/low fat of course, if
> you use store bought. That should keep him from getting dehydrated. You
> could also mix in some Slippery Elm Bark Powder to soothe his digestive
> system.
> ps - We may get sent off to raw chat - if so, I'll see you there, or you can
> PM me;
> http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawChat/

Hi Giselle,

thanks so much for all the info and suggestions! I can get SEBP at a health food store in
the next town (I use it for human sore throats too). henry seems comfortable resting and
is visiting the box ever less. He wouldn't drink broth willingly but I got a teaspoon of it
into him without particular struggle and while he didn't want to willingly drink more, he
didn't gag or retch either. He also had a, uh, slightly more-formed stool (it is only
immense love for this cat that could ever make me want to look so closely or go into such
detail) which seems like a good sign... well it's late here in Ireland and I'm tired from
concern all day, I'll check out Rawchat in the morning, so long as Henry continues to get
better.

All the best,

Sarah

Messages in this topic (5)
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6a. Shoulder bones
Posted by: "krystal_brr" rkbarr@hughes.net krystal_brr
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 3:02 pm ((PST))

I promise that I looked through the archives and the only mention of
shoulder bones I could find were all about pork shoulders.

My question is about Elk shoulders. I got to help someone butcher an
elk yesterday and I got all the scraps. I know what the concensus is
about leg bones, but what about the shoulder blades. There is still
quite a bit of meat on them. Not really enough for a meal, but enough
to entertain the dogs for awhile, I just wasn't sure about the bone
itself. Should I take it away when it is pretty clean?

thanks,

Krystal

Messages in this topic (2)
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6b. Re: Shoulder bones
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 3:29 pm ((PST))

I would take it away when they let you, you know, when they are done with it. I let my dogs tell me when they are done with it. That usually means I have stepped on it a few times, and cussed at it too:)
Wow, this reminds me of the dogs in the elk story, I still giggle when I think of that:) Man that was funny. I would go for it, probably would enjoy it a ton!
Jeni

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Messages in this topic (2)
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7a. Re: New Puppy Vomiting
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 3:15 pm ((PST))

Hi, Nicole!
Glad the pup is doing better!

You might want to introduce bone a little sooner - maybe some Game Hens,
their bones are very soft - to keep her stools from being runny.

Yes, going slowly is best, you may want to offer her several very small
meals a day for a week, gradually increasing the size and decreasing the
frequency to 3 meals a day.

You might want to treat the yard with diatomaceous earth, or at least the
area where she eliminates - hookworms shed eggs in the feces for quite a
long time, even after treatment and reinfestation is possible.
http://www.dirtworks.net/Diatomaceous-Earth.html
DE can be used in the house, on the pup and also for internal parasites, if
further worming is needed.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On 11/6/07, nkjvcjs <nefreed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Update.
>
> Tallulah Belle is home. She got IV fluids, and several dewormers, was
> diagnosed with whip and hookworms. She seems much peppier today.
>
> <snip>
>

She is
> still rather underweight, so we need to go slow, but make sure she is
> getting enough to grow on.
>
> Thanks again for all of the suggestions.
>
>
> -Nicole, Eileen and Tallulah Belle
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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8a. Re: 5 Dogs New to Raw Two Weeks
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 3:21 pm ((PST))

Hi, Stephanie!
These archived posts with suggestions could help;

*http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/130758 *

*Message #130758*

*http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/134336 *

*Message #134336*

You could also get some ground tripe and mix it in with her meal. I've never
heard of a dog that didn't like tripe!

Giselle

with Bea in New Jersey
**

On 11/6/07, Sgagos@aol.com <Sgagos@aol.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks, guys. She is in pretty good health, good teeth and she's about
> seven years old. She does like the ground meat but I'm afraid she'll get
> used to
> it. I'm going to try just putting the food down separately from everyone
> else and picking it back up, then repeating. If after another week of this
> she
> doesn't bite, then I'll try some beef or pork. I definitely get that my
> negative vibe is affecting her. It's a comedy routine, her and me:
> Eat, Shelly, Eat!
> Stares at me blankly.
> Come on Shelly, Eat your food, eat your food.
> I pick up the piece and give it to her in her mouth, she takes it, trying
> to
> be polite and drops
> it back down.
> I must admit I repeat the above quite a few times, cutting the meat down
> some more, taking the skin off, adding some parmesan, all with the same
> result.
> Then I walk away in huff. Fine, then!
>
> Thanks again for your input.
> Stephanie
>
>

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Messages in this topic (11)
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9a. Re: are pig's feet okay?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 3:36 pm ((PST))

Hi, M & M!
You can drop the stuff thats not raw meat, its expensive and
not species appropriate - and wastes your doggie $$!

'Cept for the Fish Oil - thats good - just make sure it doesn't have any
plant additives or flavorings.

Think meat, not RMB - dogs need mostly meat, a little bone, a little organ.

Dogs will vomit bone bits - BBV - when there is just too much for them to
digest. No problem, just a wake up call for you to feed more meatymeat!

Its holiday season and I've seen WHOLE turkeys on sale in the super market
for just 49 cents a pound - thats cheap!

I'm going to post a bunch of links and websites with lots of info and get
you going in the whole prey model direction.

But first, The Lis List, a creative compilation of ways to source protein
variety cheaply or for free;

*http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/139618*

*Post #139618*

http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html

http://www.rawlearning.com/supplementmyths.html

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes

http://rawfeddogs.net/FAQlist

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/143301

message # 143301

The Merck Veterinary Manual: "The carbohydrates added to pet foods are
mainly in the form of polysaccharides (starch and cellulose),
disaccharides (sucrose and lactose), and monosaccharides (glucose and
fructose). Carbohydrates are a less expensive source of energy than
fat or protein. In dogs, there appears to be **no dietary requirement
for carbohydrate**."

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/144402

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/144075

*http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374 *

*post # 141374*
HTH
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On 11/6/07, greytbizz <greytbizz@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> We are trying very hard to get a good nutritional mix (variety) into
> our two greyhounds without breaking the bank.
>
> <snip>
> Just looking for some reassurance I guess.
>
> M & M
>
>

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Messages in this topic (6)
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9b. Re: are pig's feet okay?
Posted by: "Dawn Taylor" dawnmarie1968@tx.rr.com dawnt91
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 4:01 pm ((PST))

"We are trying very hard to get a good nutritional mix (variety) into
our two greyhounds without breaking the bank."

----------------------------

I've got a greyhound too, and it's sometimes difficult to feed him on a budget especially since he eats 2 lbs per day. I try to stick to $1/lb or less, and that usually works well. Right now, I'm getting turkey for $.37/lb! Oh, and one for free. So load up on seasonal meats. Another cheap meat that we feed alot of here is pork picnic. These are great because they typically have skin, meat, and bone. I get pork picnic for $.99/lb. Every now and then I can find beef roasts or briscuit on sale for $.99/lb.

My recommendation is get a freezer if you haven't already. The cost of the freezer will quickly be offset by your savings when you can buy in bulk.

Also, as others have said, buy meatier meats or whole chickens/turkeys. This will help with the bone/meat ratio.

Good luck!
--------------------------------------------------

Dawn Taylor

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Messages in this topic (6)
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9c. price of turkey, chicken; freezer question
Posted by: "Penny Sanford Fikes" penny@bluebonnetmagnolia.com pennysanford2003
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 4:16 pm ((PST))

I want to shop at your grocery store! That is good for turkey. 89
cents/pound is the best I've found this year....but still looking. *grin*

We can get chicken leg quarters for 48 cents/pound right now...stocking
up . Since we have started going more raw, I've been thankful for that
price.

So much to learn since I found this group last night. I remember
reading that a dog needs about 60 percent chicken. We've got that part
covered, I think. *grin*

Er.....what are your thoughts on having to freeze the meat/bones for
later use....especially when one can grab a really good price?

It is venison season, finally! We've used up all the venison we cut up,
ground up, packaged up for dogs last season.

Penny in Mississippi
Four English Shepherds and Seven rescued Westies
www.pennysanford.typepad.com

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Giselle wrote:

Its holiday season and I've seen WHOLE turkeys on sale in the super
market for just 49 cents a pound - thats cheap!
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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9d. Re: are pig's feet okay?
Posted by: "girlndocs" girlndocs@hotmail.com girlndocs
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 4:17 pm ((PST))

> The alternate dinner meals are hamburger / ground pork /
> veggies / beef heart / beef liver / tripe (what is green tripe?) /
> jack mackerel all of which is sometimes supplemented with a raw egg
> (including shell) / cottage cheese / yogurt / Symons Supermix -
> powdered alfalfa, kelp, millet, buckwheat, rosehip / omega 3 fish oil

Holy oversupplementing, Batman!

The good news is you can toss out most of that stuff, including the
ground meat -- which gives you a whole lot more cash to spend on
different kinds of big old animal hunks. :)

Keep the fish oil, if you don't buy pastured meat, and eggs are fine,
but you can cross everything else off of your grocery list. Fill their
spots with whole chickens, whole turkeys, pork picnic roast, ribs and
spareribs, shoulder roasts, big old slabs of beef heart, raw mackerel,
pompano, sardines or salmon, and other goodies.

Kristin

Messages in this topic (6)
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10a. Re: Pregnancy question again
Posted by: "diannem200400" diannem200400@yahoo.com diannem200400
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 4:00 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, <Bordomom@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Dianne,
> I talked with a friend who also breeds DDB's. She said one of her
bitches stopped eating bone the last couple weeks before she whelped,
but ate them with gusto after. She whelped 8 pups and the other bitch
had 10. All 18 pups were weaned on raw. They all look fabulous.

Hi Wendy:

Thanks for letting me know...that is a relief to hear.

Dianne M.

Messages in this topic (18)
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10b. Re: Pregnancy question again
Posted by: "diannem200400" diannem200400@yahoo.com diannem200400
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 4:15 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
I also don't know that lamb has been eliminated as
> a possibility; last I read, the bitch seemed to be fond of it.
>
> Be my choice to keep offering variety until there was no no more
> offer, rather than quit trying.
> Chris O

Chris:

I'm trying lamb shanks tonight and will offer my way through Noah's Ark
if necessary! Thanks to all you long-timers (note I did not say old)
for the advice.

Dianne M.

Messages in this topic (18)
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11a. Questions about preparing/packaging/freezing venison
Posted by: "Penny Sanford Fikes" penny@bluebonnetmagnolia.com pennysanford2003
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 5:03 pm ((PST))

Tina, how do you cut up/package to freeze your venison?

We started feeding raw early this year ...and venison was the first raw
meat we tried, also plentiful on our farm in Mississippi.

How do you feel about organ meat in free-range venison?

Penny in Mississippi (I'm new....just joined last night)
4 English Shepherds
7 Rescued Westies
www.pennysanford.typepad.com

Messages in this topic (4)
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12a. Re: 80/10/10 vs 'whole prey' -Large breed puppies
Posted by: "Loraine Jesse" rothburg@hotmail.com loraine_jesse
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 5:03 pm ((PST))

"No need to get too hung up on the numbers, other than to make certain youare feeding lots of red meat in addition to chicken."

Question: Would this still apply to growing large breed puppies? Also would feeding a fair bit of heart instead of the beef be okay?
Loraine Jessewww.rothburgrottweilers.com

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12b. Re: 80/10/10 vs 'whole prey' -Large breed puppies
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 5:08 pm ((PST))

Absolutely! Prey model is the perfect diet for large breed pups to grow
slow and perfect. You just about cannot feed too much meat and you can't
improve on nature! :)

Heart is a wonderful source of muscle meat.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Loraine Jesse" <rothburg@hotmail.com>

>
> "No need to get too hung up on the numbers, other than to make certain
youare feeding lots of red meat in addition to chicken."
>
> Question: Would this still apply to growing large breed puppies? Also
would feeding a fair bit of heart instead of the beef be okay?

Messages in this topic (25)
________________________________________________________________________

12c. Re: 80/10/10 vs 'whole prey' -Large breed puppies
Posted by: "Loraine Jesse" rothburg@hotmail.com loraine_jesse
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 5:29 pm ((PST))

Absolutely! Prey model is the perfect diet for large breed pups to growslow and perfect. You just about cannot feed too much meat and you can'timprove on nature! :)Heart is a wonderful source of muscle meat.Sandee & the Dane Gang

Thank-you. I needed to confirm this, do worry from time to time.
Am I correct in thinking that beef meat, pork meat, chicken meat and turkey meat are also muscle meat?
I have managed to get some really good prices on chicken pieces. Heart, kidney & liver from beef and Pork and even a bit of lamb offal. However, I am finding the pork and beef roasts to be expensive and hard on the budget. Was considering trying to get deer (road kill) but my Husband got very upset about this and put his foot down. Rabbit is way to expensive around here too. Will be looking out for Turkey sales near Xmas.
Loraine Jesse www.rothburgrottweilers.com

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Messages in this topic (25)
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12d. Re: 80/10/10 vs 'whole prey' -Large breed puppies
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 5:54 pm ((PST))

Loraine,

Meat is meat...doesn't matter the source (other than red meat should
dominate). Beef and lamb generally are more expensive but sometimes you can
find pretty good prices on beef briskets, cheeks, etc.. Just have to watch
for sales. I find pork roasts are generally pretty economical. My dogs
hate rabbit!! :)

Too bad about the venison...if you know the kill is fresh, that's an
excellent source of nice red meat...FREE!!!! :))

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Loraine Jesse" <rothburg@hotmail.com>
> Am I correct in thinking that beef meat, pork meat, chicken meat and
turkey meat are also muscle meat?
> I have managed to get some really good prices on chicken pieces. Heart,
kidney & liver from beef and Pork and even a bit of lamb offal. However, I
am finding the pork and beef roasts to be expensive and hard on the budget.
Was considering trying to get deer (road kill) but my Husband got very upset
about this and put his foot down. Rabbit is way to expensive around here
too. Will be looking out for Turkey sales near Xmas.

Messages in this topic (25)
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13a. Re: Not a noob but i need help!
Posted by: "Loraine Jesse" rothburg@hotmail.com loraine_jesse
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 5:27 pm ((PST))

"i got a new 2 month old belgian mal and wont eat raw."

Bel I would imagine your Belgian is about the size of my Rotts at 8 wks. I personally would not recommend the wing, too small and too boney. I would suggest grinding a whole chicken to start with. Put small portions into a baggy and warm it up in hot water, that should help. Then once your pups gets used to eating raw, then I would feed a whole chicken quarter, which would have more meat on it. For my peace of mind I used to give my pups the ground up chicken pieces, then when they had eaten some of it, then I would give them whole pieces of chicken to chew on. Now at a little over 10 wks they are literally eating me out of house and home and can manage the whole pieces really well. I have noticed that mine are mad for Turkey, so I would give them the drumstick and the Turkey wing to chew on. Would cut off the tips of the wing for my peace of mind. I am sure there will be others here who will give you some excellent ideas.
Loraine Jessewww.rothburgrottweilers.com
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12248

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Husband thinks dog is still hungry
From: blueberry5297

2a. Wreck bones (was Re: Why is my dog feasting on concrete?)
From: marclre

3a. Re: Anyone raise rabbits for feed?
From: jaygaughan
3b. Re: Anyone raise rabbits for feed?
From: jennifer_hell
3c. Re: Anyone raise rabbits for feed?
From: jaygaughan

4a. Re: Daily diet plan
From: Sandee Lee
4b. Re: Daily diet plan
From: Tracy Meal

5a. Rotten eggs
From: Taj
5b. Re: Rotten eggs
From: Sandee Lee
5c. Re: Rotten eggs
From: Sonja

6a. Re: 5 Dogs New to Raw Two Weeks
From: Darlene Hastings
6b. Re: 5 Dogs New to Raw Two Weeks
From: catfsh2329
6c. Re: 5 Dogs New to Raw Two Weeks
From: moemahood@aol.com
6d. Re: 5 Dogs New to Raw Two Weeks
From: girlndocs

7a. Re: challenges!
From: Andrea
7b. Re: challenges!
From: Yasuko herron

8. Self regulating dogs
From: Darlene Hastings

9.1. Re: still swallowing whole
From: katkellm

10a. Re: Why is my dog feasting on concrete?
From: Tina Berry

11a. Diarrhea and vomiting seem unusual: opinions, please
From: sarahfalkner
11b. Re: Diarrhea and vomiting seem unusual: opinions, please
From: Andrea

12a. Re: 80/10/10 vs 'whole prey' -- Was: Re: Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
From: Sandee Lee

13a. Re: New Puppy Vomiting
From: nkjvcjs

14a. are pig's feet okay?
From: greytbizz
14b. Re: are pig's feet okay?
From: Sandee Lee

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Husband thinks dog is still hungry
Posted by: "blueberry5297" blueberry5297@yahoo.com blueberry5297
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 9:50 am ((PST))

> Dh is worried that the dog seems "constantly hungry and wants more".
I'm saying we
> don't want an overweight dog, and feeding once a day should be okay,
and 2-3% of ideal
> body weight is what we are shooting for.

How active is your dog? I do believe small dogs need more than 2-3% of
their body weight, but if he is particularly active, he'll need even
more food. Personally, I would probably allow him to eat as much as he
wants and see if he is gaining weight. If he is, start to cut back. As
mentioned by another poster, dogs will tend to regulate their own diet.
He may eat three days worth of food and then not eat for two days. I
would offer as much food as he may eat every day, but take away what he
doesn't eat after about 30-60 minutes. That way of feeding doesn't work
for everyone, but it's a good way to see if your dog can tell YOU how
much he needs to eat.

> Dh is also worried about eventually fasting the dog. Do we feed him
a bigger meal the
> day before a fast? Do most people fast the dog once a week?

The only point of fasting, in my opinion, is only met when the dog has
eaten more than a day's worth of food beforehand. Gorge and fast is a
natural way of eating in the wild because a daily meal is not
guaranteed, and a dog's stomach is built to stretch and shrink in that
fashion. If you plan to feed this way [which doesn't have any extra
benefit, as far as i know], yes, feed extra before you fast. They are
not meant to go without food if they haven't had enough to last them
that amount of time.

- Jeni & Blue -

Messages in this topic (4)
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2a. Wreck bones (was Re: Why is my dog feasting on concrete?)
Posted by: "marclre" marclre@aol.com marclre
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 9:50 am ((PST))

"There are many items a dog can chew for fun that won't damage the teeth."

***Hi Ann- my own feeling is that recreational bones aren't (or shouldn't be) necessary at
all for healthy rawfed dogs. I'm also skeptical how terrific an activity *brainless* gnawing
on non-edible lumps of plastic/rubber/vinyl etc is - either from a health or behavioural
point of view. Sure ain't a natural behaviour so I see it much more as compulsive tick.
Our 2 year-old cattle dog mix was a one-dog house demo crew when he came to us but
after a week of good handling & feeding that stopped completely. He has also had
treatment from a classical homeopath and we saw further improvement from that. In any
case he seems perfectly satisfied with the action he gets ripping/gnawing meat off suitable
bones and doesn't appear to feel the need to chew on anything between feeds. Adult
wolves and other wild canines don't chew for recreation, which is a good guide to go by.
Marie-Claire***

Messages in this topic (12)
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3a. Re: Anyone raise rabbits for feed?
Posted by: "jaygaughan" jaygaughan@yahoo.com jaygaughan
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 9:50 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jennifer_hell" <jenniferhell@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jaygaughan" <jaygaughan@> wrote:
>
> > I thought it was going to be just me putting a few cages together
and
> > letting them get to work multiplying.
> >
> So you would try to keep and feed your dog species appropriate,
while
> keeping the rabbits totally inappropriate for their species? That's
> just me, but for me that's plain wrong.
> Sorry for the OT!!
>
>
> Jennifer
>

LOL

No Jennifer. I won't just try. I will keep and feed my dog species
appropriate.

And Yes. I am saying the rabbits would live there short lives in
rabbit pens waiting to be ripped to shreds by my dog.

Must be nice to have enough land, time, and or money to raise or buy
only free range animals to eat for you and your pets. I don't have
that option right now. Hence the reason I'm in my office.

Thanks for the informative answer to my question.

Jay

Messages in this topic (9)
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3b. Re: Anyone raise rabbits for feed?
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 10:43 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jaygaughan" <jaygaughan@...> wrote:
>
> And Yes. I am saying the rabbits would live there short lives in
> rabbit pens waiting to be ripped to shreds by my dog.

It's not the short life and being raised for dog food, it's the not
appropriate raising/ keeping. Stands in stark contrast to how you want
to keep your dogs. a little schizophrenic.

> Must be nice to have enough land, time, and or money to raise or buy
> only free range animals to eat for you and your pets. I don't have
> that option right now. Hence the reason I'm in my office.
>

I have not enough land, time or money to raise free range animals. I
buy only free range animals, and they're the same price as "regular".
I get the leftovers. A lot even for free.
I don't get the reason as to why you're stating that you're in your
office, but I guess it has something to do with insulting me.
This leads too far OT.

Jennifer

Messages in this topic (9)
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3c. Re: Anyone raise rabbits for feed?
Posted by: "jaygaughan" jaygaughan@yahoo.com jaygaughan
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 12:03 pm ((PST))

Sorry Jennifer. I don't want you to think I am trying to insult you
in any way.

Notice the "LOL" in the beginning of my post. It was an attempt at a
funny sarcastic reply to what I considered yours to be. Please excuse
my joking around. It was just in fun.

I stated I was in my office because I'm not independently wealthy as
of yet and still have to work for a living. Not trying to insult you
at all.

Guess I didn't put to much thought into rabbits that I would be using
to feed my dog. My dog will get the absolute best I can give him. He
is a member of our family and will be treated as such.

I've seen many people with rabbits at their homes they use for food
and have for pets. All living in small cages (4'x3'x3') 3 feet off
the ground. This is the only way I've ever seen them besides in the
woods and what I thought was the norm. If this is inappropriate for
raising rabbits in any form I'm guilty as charged.

Please excuse my rabbit raising ignorance.

Jay

Messages in this topic (9)
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4a. Re: Daily diet plan
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 10:39 am ((PST))

Yes....my adult couch potato Danes require less than the 2%.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "K. Gordon Crawford" <kgcrawford@gmail.com>

> Do a lot of the big dog owners find that the 2% - 3% guidline skews a
> little high for their needs? for her my 2% - 3% would be 2.4 - 3.6 lbs. 2
> lbs is more like 1.5%.

Messages in this topic (12)
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4b. Re: Daily diet plan
Posted by: "Tracy Meal" hiddenpoetinme1@yahoo.com hiddenpoetinme1
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 12:03 pm ((PST))

>>Do a lot of the big dog owners find that the 2% - 3% guidline skews a
little high for their needs? for her my 2% - 3% would be 2.4 - 3.6 lbs. 2
lbs is more like 1.5%.

My Rottweilers vary among the two of them.

My geriatric 11yr old girl is less active and only eats 1.5% to maintain her weight.

The puppy at 6 months eats 2.5% to maintain her weight because she moves non stop most days.

Hope this helps,

Tracy

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Messages in this topic (12)
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________________________________________________________________________

5a. Rotten eggs
Posted by: "Taj" bpskarma@yahoo.com bpskarma
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 10:43 am ((PST))

I have a neighbor that has been trying to mimic my raw feeding actions and all has been well until they tried to feed expired eggs to their pitty they asked me if it ok to do so and I told them I wasn't sure but would find out so I'm questioning that now. I know they can eat old meat but how about old eggs?

Taj and Karma
"Dogs are a special gift we must appreciate their unlimited love and attempt to return it"
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

Messages in this topic (3)
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5b. Re: Rotten eggs
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 10:53 am ((PST))

Expired eggs or rotten eggs? There is a big difference. I wouldn't pay
much attention to an expiration date.

My dogs have actually eaten some quite rotten eggs (found a nest of
unhatched chicken eggs...yuck) without any problems, but someone new to raw
might not want to try that! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Taj" <bpskarma@yahoo.com>

> I have a neighbor that has been trying to mimic my raw feeding actions and
all has been well until they tried to feed expired eggs to their pitty they
asked me if it ok to do so and I told them I wasn't sure but would find out
so I'm questioning that now. I know they can eat old meat but how about old
eggs?

Messages in this topic (3)
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5c. Re: Rotten eggs
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 12:03 pm ((PST))

I wouldn't feed ROTTEN eggs, but expired eggs are OK. I've eaten eggs weeks past their expiration and haven't keeled over yet. Of course, they were refrigerated.

You'll know a rotten egg if you crack one open.

Sonja

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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6a. Re: 5 Dogs New to Raw Two Weeks
Posted by: "Darlene Hastings" dsdgrooming1001@qwest.net darlenesdoggroom
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 10:44 am ((PST))

My BC Jax would do this also if I bought into it. I have to just give him
his food and walk away. If I stand and watch, he'll just look at me blankly
and not eat. He can be very nervous about eating. If I obsess and plead
with him to eat, he won't. I started just giving him his food and then
watching from a discreet place. Now he eats like a pro. Hope that helps.
Darlene

-------Original Message-------

From: Sgagos@aol.com
Date: 11/06/07 09:50:23
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: 5 Dogs New to Raw Two Weeks

Thanks, guys. She is in pretty good health, good teeth and she's about
seven years old. She does like the ground meat but I'm afraid she'll get
used to
it. I'm going to try just putting the food down separately from everyone
else and picking it back up, then repeating. If after another week of this
she
doesn't bite, then I'll try some beef or pork. I definitely get that my
negative vibe is affecting her. It's a comedy routine, her and me:
Eat, Shelly, Eat!
Stares at me blankly.
Come on Shelly, Eat your food, eat your food.
I pick up the piece and give it to her in her mouth, she takes it, trying to

be polite and drops
it back down.
I must admit I repeat the above quite a few times, cutting the meat down
some more, taking the skin off, adding some parmesan, all with the same
result.
Then I walk away in huff. Fine, then!

Thanks again for your input.
Stephanie

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

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Messages in this topic (10)
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6b. Re: 5 Dogs New to Raw Two Weeks
Posted by: "catfsh2329" mhaveman@sbcglobal.net catfsh2329
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 11:01 am ((PST))

Hi Stephanie,

One of the suggestions I've seen here that worked for me is to try
different temperatures. If you normally take food right out of the
refrigerator or freezer, try letting the food get to room temp. or run
some warm water over it. This generally works better for us although
sometimes Mira just likes to let it lay in the sun for a while before
she gets to it. Some dogs may like cold or frozen food better.

As others have suggested, the chicken may not be a favorite. Beef and
eggs are scarfed up immediately here. Chicken is almost always a "this
isn't what I want" pout for a day or two before she gets hungry enough
to eat it. Other things fall somewhere in the middle.

Melissa

> The springer mix is not enjoying it at all. I'm having the most
> difficulty with her. I give her a leg, she takes it and drops it on
> the ground. I give her a piece of chicken, she walks away with it and
> spits it out. If it has bone in it she might eat it. She's hardly
> eating, well at least not the amount she should be eating. She likes
> gizzards, bone by itself and some pieces of chicken with bone, but
> lately not even that.

Messages in this topic (10)
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6c. Re: 5 Dogs New to Raw Two Weeks
Posted by: "moemahood@aol.com" moemahood@aol.com selfemployedhealth
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 12:14 pm ((PST))

In all the years of feeding dogs -- my own two and countless fosters I've never had to worry about tempurature.....The only problem is maybe liver -- but they usually get over that after it is offered a couple of times.?

But I am of the opinion that you eat what is being put in front of you or you go hungry.? The only dogs that do not
eat their food right away are the sick ones and the spoiled ones.....I really think that dogs do what you expect them to do.? A heathy dog will eat
what is being put in front of him, unless he is spoiled.? Then that is a different story......; )

Put the food down,?do not speak.? Leave it for 20 minutes come back, still no speaking, pick up all uneated portions and store for later, repeat until you win the stand off.? If you don't give in you won't have to go through this again and again.....The less fuss you make, the faster the dog will get it.

Maureen

Melissa

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Messages in this topic (10)
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6d. Re: 5 Dogs New to Raw Two Weeks
Posted by: "girlndocs" girlndocs@hotmail.com girlndocs
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 12:14 pm ((PST))

Hi Stephanie,

> It's a comedy routine, her and me:
> Eat, Shelly, Eat!
> Stares at me blankly.
> Come on Shelly, Eat your food, eat your food.
> I pick up the piece and give it to her in her mouth, she takes it,
trying to
> be polite and drops
> it back down.
> I must admit I repeat the above quite a few times

Ahh, there's your problem, I think. I bet it'll make a difference if
you quit coaxing or urging and just put the food down and walk away.

If you really think she has noooooo idea what to do with a whole chunk
of food, then cut it up for a few meals, and maybe even sear it
briefly; but however you prepare it to accommodate her, don't fret
about whether she's eating. Just put it down, give her 15 minutes and
pick it back up.

Next meal SAME THING, until she eats. Once she finishes the seared
meat, give her chunked and unseared; once she finishes the chunked
meat, give her boneless whole; once she finishes the boneless whole
give her whole bone-in. You can of course skip some of these steps if
she seems ready to go without any further babying.

Kristin

Messages in this topic (10)
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7a. Re: challenges!
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 11:24 am ((PST))

Yeah, I've done some searching on this previously, so we're pretty
much on the same page. Except the fact that fish infected with this
parasite are found only in the pacific northwest, not everywhere.
Also the parasite only affects salmonids (salmon and trout). Though
the below link does mention Pacific giant salamanders as well
<shudder>.

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/57305.htm

I only make the distinction because the idea of every wild fish
causing salmon poisoning is really scary for newbies. We always tell
people to freeze wild game before feeding if they are concerned about
parasites, but it seems like salmon poisoning freaks people out more
than anything else.

<sigh> Wish I lived in a place where I could get *real* fresh sushi.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jaygaughan" <jaygaughan@...>
wrote:

> Do a little searching on this and you'll find it is not just that
> one area or fish that can and does have the potential to harbor
> this parasite.

Messages in this topic (14)
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7b. Re: challenges!
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 12:03 pm ((PST))

> Wish I lived in a place where I could get *real* fresh sushi.

Go visit Japan,and you get fresher nice sushi.I think fish there are tasting better raw than here. I don't like sushi here,but there in Japan.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (14)
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8. Self regulating dogs
Posted by: "Darlene Hastings" dsdgrooming1001@qwest.net darlenesdoggroom
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 12:03 pm ((PST))

Hi everyone,
My name is Darlene. I have been feeding raw for several months now. I
have four BCs. A while ago on this list, someone was trying to get their
dog to finally be satisfied and learn to self regulate. Have you had any
success with this? One of my BCs will eat 4 pounds at a time on days that I
let him have a gorge meal, but then he is hungry again the next day. Do
they eventually learn to self regulate, or do some dogs just never learn?
My other 3 all regulate themselves just fine, it's just the one.
Darlene

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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9.1. Re: still swallowing whole
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 12:03 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "delcaste" <delcaste@...> wrote:
> Because she's been choking on her food three times in a week. My
> mistake but this sure is a hard way to learn.
>

Hi Silvina,
You have learned to feed bigger portions. You asked and learned and
fixed the problem. You have done a wonderful job for your gulper.
You had the gumption to stick with it, and i think you have done a
fantastic job with your dog. Now, do something nice for yourself.
Relax. Permit yourself to release the past and focus on all the
wonderful big meals ahead. KathyM

Messages in this topic (33)
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10a. Re: Why is my dog feasting on concrete?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 12:03 pm ((PST))

"Dirt, sticks, and rocks are common objects of obsession, and in fact I
still see this in my mostly cured old timer on occasion when he is
stressed."

My prev vaxxed gsd ate red clay when I lived in CA; I took her to the vet
one time and she was completely backed up - her intestines showed up like a
road map on the xray - she pooped it all out fine; but she ate red clay.
Not when stressed or anything, just in general cuz she apparently liked it.
Coincidentally, after not receiving vaxes from when she was around 3.....
later in life she wasn't eating anything weird anymore.

--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (12)
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11a. Diarrhea and vomiting seem unusual: opinions, please
Posted by: "sarahfalkner" Sarah.Falkner@gmail.com sarahfalkner
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 12:03 pm ((PST))

Hello! I also posted this on rawcat, sorry for duplicates.

Sorry to add to the plethora of postings about diarrhea and vomiting! Newbies, please
don't be alarmed! Let me just say upfront, this is unusual in our household, raw has been
great!!!

Background:
Henry and Ivan have eaten various raw foods for several years; this past July we switched
to Prey Model. Up to this point, touch wood, we've only had a few minor gastrointestinal
distresses, Ivan has vomited yellow bile a couple of times when really hungry, and when
Henry has stolen Ivan's portion of liver and had too much, he had mild diarrhea for maybe
an hour at most. Nothing too worrisome, nothing I couldn't easily find out about in the
archives if I had a question! Mostly everything has been just great! They enjoy a variety of
proteins, ranging from lean to rich, and I have learned about how much fat to trim from
fatty beef or pork cuts so their stools aren't really loose.

So, last night, dinner was lamb heart, now in season here in Ireland, which had a lot of fat
on it, some of which I trimmed to approximate the amount of fat on other fatty meats that
usually seems fine to them. This was the second time they'd had lamb heart, the first time
was last week, it was well enjoyed and no ill effects resulted. They've eaten beef heart lots
of times before, they've eaten pork and other rich foods with no problems before. Usually I
hang out and watch them eat to make sure everything's ok and because I love seeing them
enjoy their food, but this week my husband and I have been sick with bad colds and the
kitchen was a mess, and I was trying to make soup for us and clean up the kitchen, and so
last night I did not notice that Ivan didn't finish his supper (he's much more self-regulating
than Henry, who I think would eat until he burst) and I also did not notice until it was too
late that Henry decided to finish Ivan's meal and so have double portions of a rich meal.
And just to make the whole evening interesting, some hours later, my husband observed
that Henry had evidently stashed an old meaty bone somewhere at some point, and he was
gnawing on it for a midnight snack! So, we have two potential problems here:
overfeeding of a rich meat, and rancid meat...

This morning it is possible that Henry had diarrhea before breakfast, as when I was
waking up I heard two different trips to the litterbox pretty close together--but at the time
I assumed it was one cat after the other. At any rate, both cats were bugging me to wake
up and feed them breakfast, and both cats ate heartily (a lean stew beef cut, meaty meat).
But then Henry threw up about 15 minutes after he ate. He also either started or continued
having diarrhea. It was pretty frequent for about an hour or so, and he was uncomfortable
enough that he was also pacing and yowling. During the worst phase he wasn't always
making it to the litterbox, he would go like 3 or 4 times in 15 minutes. Since this
morning, each expulsion has only ever been about 1/2 teaspoon at most of a watery
green foul smelling liquid. As the urgency and agitation and frequency lessened, he was
able to rest more and stopped the pacing; then a few times it seemed like he didn't even
realize some diarrhea dribbled out of him, a couple of times I found a few drips when he
got up!

He also vomited clear bile probably an hour after the first vomiting of breakfast, and what
really surprised me, vomited one more time probably seven hours after eating breakfast,
not having had any food or water during that seven hours. The clear bile he vomited also
smelled quite strong. I would say these vomits were maybe a tablespoon or two??

The urgency and discomfort of the diarrhea has lessened quite a lot over the day, so that
now he's resting for periods of half an hour to an hour, maybe even longer at the moment,
touch wood--but even almost 10 hours since breakfast, he still gets up and goes to the
litterbox quite regularly.

I've lived with cats all my 39 years and never had one have diarrhea and intermittent
vomiting all day long, only a couple hours at most, so it's really worrying me.

His energy is still pretty OK all things considering--he's not shaking or hiding or prostrate
or anything that would make me call the vet asap--and he's gotten better over the course
of the day, but that he's still having problems at all even so many hours after not having
anything in his stomach makes me worry.

My guess is it's either bacterial/food poisoning or possibly an excess
of super-rich fatty food. Or even both, since he really did a number at dinner last night! It
doesn't seem to me like overfeeding alone would cause diarrhea lasting this long--can
anybody speak to that? I confess that recent discussion of pancreatitis makes me anxious,
I worry I am feeding him too much fat in general. Does anybody have anything to say
about my speculations? Does it sound diet related, or just a one-off bacterial thing? If the
latter, with humans, 24 hours is often the time it takes for food poisoning to run its
course--does anyone know if it is about the same for cats? I use activated charcoal
capsules for my own diarrhea problems with great success--does anyone use that for their
animals?

If he still has diarrhea tomorrow, and/or his energy or mood changes, I think I should call
a vet, but given the time difference between Ireland and a lot of the people on this list, I
thought I'd post and see if I could get any advice sooner.

Lastly, of course, even if he actually wanted food right now, I wouldn't give it to him, and
follow the usual advice and fast him the rest of the day. However, he has not taken any
water all day, and though I know he doesn't need any food at the moment, because I worry
he might be getting dehydrated, I boiled a drumstick (removed the skin and fat first) in
some water for about 10 minutes to flavor and warm the water to make it more appealing
and add some electrolytes, strained and cooled it, and offered him some of that, but he is
not interested. I imagine if I still had diarrhea, I wouldn't be interested either in anything
that remotely smelled like food, but I thought it was worth a try. I will offer it again before
we go to sleep, and of course, plain water is out all the time should he want it. Do people
think that's ok or am I being too cavalier about dehydration?

Hopefully, Henry will be a lot better tomorrow, and I will be able to offer him some plain
bland chicken and keep him on that for a few days at least. But if anyone thinks I should
take more or faster action, please let me know!

Thanks!!!

Sarah, hominid
Henry & Ivan, felidae
Quercus & Ilex, mustelidae

Messages in this topic (2)
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11b. Re: Diarrhea and vomiting seem unusual: opinions, please
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 12:21 pm ((PST))

Oh, poor Henry! I hope he starts feeling better soon. I think it
all sounds like too much new food at once. My cats are pretty
discrete about going poo so I'm not sure if/when they get runny
stools with new foods. However, the first time my newf mix pup ate
beef heart he went all out and ate the whole thing. He had
freakishly loose stools that smelled horrible for about a day and a
half and he wasn't much interested in food during that time.

I would think that since Henry didn't digest the dinner meal (it all
squirted out) and he vomited up his breakfast all of the bile vomits
are coming because his tummy is empty. For a dog I would say fast
him for a day, but since he's a cat I would try to get something in
his tummy. Maybe small bits of chicken breast throughout the day?
If you can get some slippery elm bark it may help settle down his
digestive system. Keep trying to get some fluids in him, too. The
juice from a tuna can added to more water always works for my cats.
Keep us updated.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "sarahfalkner" <Sarah.Falkner@...>
wrote:

> But then Henry threw up about 15 minutes after he ate. He also
> either started or continued having diarrhea. It was pretty frequent
> for about an hour or so, and he was uncomfortable enough that he
> was also pacing and yowling.

Messages in this topic (2)
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12a. Re: 80/10/10 vs 'whole prey' -- Was: Re: Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 12:03 pm ((PST))

Alex,

The ratios originate from the normal prey of the wolf which consists of
large ungulates. They hunt in packs, take down large critters and all feast
on the prey until it is gone. That's what we are striving to mimic...the
normal natural prey of a carnivore.

Very seldom would a wolf eat a small animal, and probably never poultry. A
cow, pig or goat would be much closer to their natural diet (and provide
nice variety)....lots and lots of red meat, small amounts of bone and
organs.

No need to get too hung up on the numbers, other than to make certain you
are feeding lots of red meat in addition to chicken.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "alexanderdewey" <alexanderdewey@yahoo.com>

I'd be interested in eventually getting Gigi WHOLE chicken (with
feathers, and head). I'm curious though, would a whole chicken then
consist of the 80/10/10 split?? What about a whole rabbit? Is
typical small whole prey for a wolf or wild dog 80/10/10? Or, in
other words, is the "whole prey" philosophy different than
80/10/10? If so, which in your opinion should I try best to follow?

And, in nature would they really get as much variety as my butcher
has to offer? I'm sure they'd eat a wide variety of smaller
animals, but I mainly mean COW, PIG, GOAT and other large animals
which I could only imagine a wild dog or wolf would rarely get to
eat (and certainly not "whole", right?).

Messages in this topic (21)
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13a. Re: New Puppy Vomiting
Posted by: "nkjvcjs" nefreed@gmail.com nkjvcjs
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 1:21 pm ((PST))

Update.

Tallulah Belle is home. She got IV fluids, and several dewormers, was
diagnosed with whip and hookworms. She seems much peppier today.

The vet thinks she is younger than we originally thought too. Only
9-12 weeks, so we have more puppyhood to go through than we thought.

We plan to keep her on boneless, skinless chicken breast for a while,
then introduce dark meat, in 2 or 3 days, still boneless and skinless,
and then add in skin, bone and organ over about another week. She is
still rather underweight, so we need to go slow, but make sure she is
getting enough to grow on.

Thanks again for all of the suggestions.

-Nicole, Eileen and Tallulah Belle

Messages in this topic (7)
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14a. are pig's feet okay?
Posted by: "greytbizz" greytbizz@yahoo.com greytbizz
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 1:42 pm ((PST))

We are trying very hard to get a good nutritional mix (variety) into
our two greyhounds without breaking the bank.

So far their main RMBs are turkey necks at each breakfast and every
other dinner. The alternate dinner meals are hamburger / ground pork /
veggies / beef heart / beef liver / tripe (what is green tripe?) /
jack mackerel all of which is sometimes supplemented with a raw egg
(including shell) / cottage cheese / yogurt / Symons Supermix -
powdered alfalfa, kelp, millet, buckwheat, rosehip / omega 3 fish oil
plus their various meds.

We just found an economical source for pork hocks and pig's feet but
some bone was vomited that night ... rather ... in the early morning
hours. Because we are still new to this we found it rather
disconcerting. The same thing happened with pork neck bones.

Just looking for some reassurance I guess.

M & M

Messages in this topic (2)
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14b. Re: are pig's feet okay?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 1:50 pm ((PST))

Sounds like you are feeding too much bone. Feed whole turkeys, whole
chickens, nice large pork roasts, more heart and tripe (stomach muscle) if
you can get it economically...and drop the veggies and supplements other
than the fish oil.

Pork hocks, pork feet, pork neck bones and turkey necks are all far to high
in bone content. Add more meat!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "greytbizz" <greytbizz@yahoo.com>
So far their main RMBs are turkey necks at each breakfast and every
other dinner. The alternate dinner meals are hamburger / ground pork /
veggies / beef heart / beef liver / tripe (what is green tripe?) /
jack mackerel all of which is sometimes supplemented with a raw egg
(including shell) / cottage cheese / yogurt / Symons Supermix -
powdered alfalfa, kelp, millet, buckwheat, rosehip / omega 3 fish oil
plus their various meds.

Messages in this topic (2)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12247

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Husband thinks dog is still hungry
From: mmc2315
1b. Re: Husband thinks dog is still hungry
From: Andrea
1c. Re: Husband thinks dog is still hungry
From: carnesbill

2a. Re: Daily diet plan
From: great_dane_devotee
2b. Re: Daily diet plan
From: K. Gordon Crawford
2c. Re: Daily diet plan
From: carnesbill
2d. Re: Daily diet plan
From: Shelly

3a. 80/10/10 vs 'whole prey' -- Was: Re: Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
From: katkellm
3b. 80/10/10 vs 'whole prey' -- Was: Re: Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
From: Pamela Picard

4. Re: Pit fight and still swallowing whole..
From: doggirl1@earthlink.net

5a. Recreational bones (was Re: Why is my dog feasting on concrete?)
From: mmc2315
5b. Recreational bones (was Re: Why is my dog feasting on concrete?)
From: carnesbill
5c. Wreck bones (was Re: Why is my dog feasting on concrete?)
From: Andrea

6.1. Re: swallows whole
From: jaygaughan

7a. Re: Why is my dog feasting on concrete?
From: carnesbill
7b. Re: Why is my dog feasting on concrete?
From: ginny wilken

8. Location: Eastern Washington/Northern Idaho
From: macluerssen

9a. Re: kangaroo meat
From: Andrea

10a. Re: Anyone raise rabbits for feed?
From: jaygaughan
10b. Re: Anyone raise rabbits for feed?
From: jennifer_hell

11a. Re: Pregnancy question again
From: Tina Berry

12a. Re: How much rabbit,how much venison?
From: Tina Berry

13a. Re: challenges!
From: jaygaughan

14.1. Re: still swallowing whole
From: ginny wilken

15a. Re: 5 Dogs New to Raw Two Weeks
From: Sgagos@aol.com

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Husband thinks dog is still hungry
Posted by: "mmc2315" m.chelap@sbcglobal.net mmc2315
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 6:38 am ((PST))

Hi all,

First week of feeding raw here. Still on chicken.

Our adult 10# Cairn Terrier mix is getting part of a chicken quarter, once a day.

The first day we fed him raw, I gave him the entire chicken quarter and he ate the whole
thing. Listmates kindly pointed out that was 3 days worth of food. :)

Since then, we've cut the chicken quarter into thirds, and feed him a third each day.

Dh is worried that the dog seems "constantly hungry and wants more". I'm saying we
don't want an overweight dog, and feeding once a day should be okay, and 2-3% of ideal
body weight is what we are shooting for.

Dh is also worried about eventually fasting the dog. Do we feed him a bigger meal the
day before a fast? Do most people fast the dog once a week?

Thanks,

Michelle

Messages in this topic (3)
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1b. Re: Husband thinks dog is still hungry
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 7:23 am ((PST))

The little dogs often need more than 3% of their adult body weight, so
your hubby might have a good point. I've always been a fan of letting
the dog tell you how much they should eat. Some dogs simply won't
regulate themselves, but lots do fine if you just let them. That said,
lots of dogs act like they are staaaarving the first few weeks of a
real diet. It won't hurt to let him eat a little more than usual for
the time being. If he starts to get pudgy just cut back the amount of
food.

> Dh is also worried about eventually fasting the dog. Do we feed him
> a bigger meal the day before a fast?

I don't believe in arbitrarily fasting a dog just to fast them. My
dogs are always offered large food and if they eat two day's worth in
one sitting I just don't feed them the next day. During the summer my
GSP chose to eat small meals every day, but now that it is getting
colder he is starting to eat larger quantities. Some people or dogs
aren't fans of the idea of big food/no food days, that's ok too.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (3)
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1c. Re: Husband thinks dog is still hungry
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 7:26 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mmc2315" <m.chelap@...> wrote:
>
> Our adult 10# Cairn Terrier mix is getting part of a
> chicken quarter, once a day.
>
> Dh is worried that the dog seems "constantly hungry and
> wants more".

And DH may be right, however the determining factor on the volume of
food to feed is the dogs build, not whether he is acting hungry.
Thin is MUCH healthier than fat. You will be able to tell in a few
weeks whether he is gaining or loosing weight and adjust volume
accordingly.

> Dh is also worried about eventually fasting the dog. Do we
> feed him a bigger meal the day before a fast?

I have never fasted a dog in my life but if I felt it necessary to
do so, yes, I would feed a larger meal the day before. I have never
been convinced that fasting accomplishes anything physically or
mentally.

> Do most people fast the dog once a week?

I don't think so. I think very few people fast their dogs. Some
people here only feed their dogs every other day or so but I don't
consider that fasting.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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2a. Re: Daily diet plan
Posted by: "great_dane_devotee" libpowers@mac.com great_dane_devotee
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 6:38 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "K. Gordon Crawford" <kgcrawford@...> wrote:
>
> so you'll see that the
> proposed menu is 2.5 lbs per day.
>
> I feed my 125 pound dog 2-2.5 pounds of food a day (she ought to be 120), so as far as
the amount goes I think you should cut way back.

However, the mix seems like a nice variety, and the stools are always a good indicator.

Libby

Messages in this topic (10)
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2b. Re: Daily diet plan
Posted by: "K. Gordon Crawford" kgcrawford@gmail.com kgcrawfordesq
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 7:25 am ((PST))

Do a lot of the big dog owners find that the 2% - 3% guidline skews a
little high for their needs? for her my 2% - 3% would be 2.4 - 3.6 lbs. 2
lbs is more like 1.5%.

And to clarify, she's not completely obese, just heafty and I can't tell if
thats just her breed and how she should look or she is overweight. (I don't
find many purebred bullmastiffs around to compare) But I have been cuttting
back lately and someone commented at the dog park last night that she looked
thinner.

thanks again

--
> K. Gordon Crawford
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (10)
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2c. Re: Daily diet plan
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 7:34 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "K. Gordon Crawford"
<kgcrawford@...> wrote:
>
> I had been giving
> about 3 + lbs per day, which may be two mutch - so you'll see
> that the proposed menu is 2.5 lbs per day.

I still think you are too hung up on numbers. I have never weighed
my dog's food and don't have a clue how much I feed them
weightwise. I feed either one chicken quarter or two, one turkey
neck or two, two chicken backs or three, one turkey wing or two,
etc. If one dog is getting a little heavy she gets less food until
her build returns to what it should be. If one is a little skinny,
she will get larger meals until she builds back up. If they get a
meal that feels a little heavy, next meal will be lighter.

> I just also thought that I may have been
> giving too much bone (though there are no stool problems) and
> want that corrected.

If not stool problems, I wouldn't worry about bone amount. Bone
amount is not critical. You can feed 5% bone or 35% bone and you or
your dog won't know the difference.

Dogs are all individuals. Trying to meet some hypotheitcal standard
in food just isn't practical. You just have to judge your dog by
appearance and activity level to determine what this particular
dog's needs are. A little more or a little less of anything in the
diet just doesn't matter. Just as it doesn't matter in your own
diet.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (10)
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2d. Re: Daily diet plan
Posted by: "Shelly" StuartLittle@comcast.net stuartjeanlittle
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 8:09 am ((PST))

It does for one of my dogs... I think it depends on the activity level of the
dog. I have three, and my biggest girl, Lady (Rhodesian Ridgeback / Lab mix)
weighs about 110 lbs. She is not thin, but not obese either. She only eats
about two lbs a day at the very most. My pointer (Galaway) and border collie
(Trixie) eat significanly more for their size, but they are also more active.
When we go on our mile and a half walk, Lady pretty much walks with me, the
other two probably put in 4 miles running all over the place, and the border
collie gets additional exercise chasing after a frisbee a few hundred times a
day (she eats a little less than Lady, but only weighs 45 lbs, so around 3 -
4% for her because she's so active, it's almost impossible to wear that dog
out).

Shelly

On Tuesday 06 November 2007 10:12, K. Gordon Crawford wrote:
Do a lot of the big dog owners find that the 2% - 3% guidline skews a
little high for their needs?

Messages in this topic (10)
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3a. 80/10/10 vs 'whole prey' -- Was: Re: Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 6:38 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "katkellm" <katkellm@...> wrote:
> Follow this thread:

the second one should have been this link:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/78287

KathyM

Messages in this topic (20)
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3b. 80/10/10 vs 'whole prey' -- Was: Re: Grass Eating -- MINE TOO!!
Posted by: "Pamela Picard" pet.wellness@yahoo.com pet.wellness
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 7:25 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "katkellm" <katkellm@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "alexanderdewey"
> <alexanderdewey@> wrote:
> > I'd be interested in eventually getting Gigi WHOLE chicken (with
> > feathers, and head). I'm curious though, would a whole chicken then
> > consist of the 80/10/10 split?? What about a whole rabbit? Is
> > typical small whole prey for a wolf or wild dog 80/10/10? Or, in
> > other words, is the "whole prey" philosophy different than
> > 80/10/10? If so, which in your opinion should I try best to follow?
>
***

If you think along the lines of whole prey as "what would a wolf eat,"
then you'd be thinking they would vary small game with large game as
their pack hunting, region and seasons permitted. So rabbit, which is
bony meat, would be varied with elk, moose, deer, antelope and like
that. Chicken would not be on the menu as a rule.

Getting the "perfect prey" is difficult for me so I judge the right
amount of bone to meat ratio by my dog's poop. When it is well-formed,
moist and easy to pass, then I've got the proportion right. When it is
hard, crumbly and difficult, too much bone. When it is black, tarry,
too much organ meat and fat. Makes life simpler.

Pamela Picard
http://www.pet-wellness-update.com
http://aimees-law.blogspot.com/
aimees_law-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

***Sign the petition***
Exempt Sick & Senior Pets from Rabies Shots
http://www.petitiononline.com/tdsh2007/petition.html

Messages in this topic (20)
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4. Re: Pit fight and still swallowing whole..
Posted by: "doggirl1@earthlink.net" doggirl1@earthlink.net rowdycowgirl50
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 7:00 am ((PST))

Regarding the pittie..I am in rescue and have pit bulls and dogs in every nook and cranny...I am working with one of my returns who is suffering from rabies vaccinosis homeopathically which will cure the aggression. If you'd like to email me off the group, I'm willing to help you with your issue...Cindy doggirl1@earthlink.net

8.1.
Re: still swallowing whole
Posted by: "delcaste" delcaste@yahoo.com delcaste
Mon Nov 5, 2007 2:19 pm (PST)
Hi Connie. I'm writing you offline because I really don't know where
to put this. Yesterday my pit got in a fight with one of the pugs and
almost killed him. I have to get rid of the pit and wonder if you
knew of anybody that would take care of him or direct me to someone
or someplace that would take him. He's about 10 mos old (I found him
when he was 2 to 2 1/2) and a beauty. He's probably a mix of red nose
with ? It's tearing me up to give him up but I can't deal with a
fight again. This little pup is so strong all I could do was fall on
top of him and try to hold him down so he couldn't keep tearing at
Chunkie. You should see my hands; I used one of them as a breakstick,
ha, ha :(

Messages in this topic (1)
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5a. Recreational bones (was Re: Why is my dog feasting on concrete?)
Posted by: "mmc2315" m.chelap@sbcglobal.net mmc2315
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 7:00 am ((PST))

Josh LaRue wrote:

> Does the dog have any recreational bones? The big knuckle bones would probably keep
>him busy chewing on that instead of other odd things.

Is a big knuckle bone appropriate for a smaller dog? We have a 10# adult Cairn Terrier mix.

What bone part, specifically, would I ask the butcher for? I'm thinking a recreational bone
might be a good thing for our little dog because he likes to munch on wood chips and usually
horks them up.

Thanks,

Michelle

Messages in this topic (10)
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5b. Recreational bones (was Re: Why is my dog feasting on concrete?)
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 7:34 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mmc2315" <m.chelap@...> wrote:
>

> Is a big knuckle bone appropriate for a smaller dog? We have a
> 10# adult Cairn Terrier mix.

I don't think a big knuckle bone is appropriate for any dog of any
size. I suggest sticking to chew toys for your dog to chew(Nylabones,
Kongs, etc).

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (10)
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5c. Wreck bones (was Re: Why is my dog feasting on concrete?)
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 7:37 am ((PST))

Knuckle bones aren't really all that great for any dog, big or small.
The leg bones of big animals like cows have to be extremely dense in
order to hold all the weight. So dense that they are stronger than
your dog's teeth. That's why we call them "wreck" bones. There are
many items a dog can chew for fun that won't damage the teeth. Try
pig's feet or a kong stuffed with frozen hamburger.

Andrea

"mmc2315" <m.chelap@...> wrote:

> Is a big knuckle bone appropriate for a smaller dog?

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6.1. Re: swallows whole
Posted by: "jaygaughan" jaygaughan@yahoo.com jaygaughan
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 7:00 am ((PST))

Hi Mary. I'm glad your Dane is not having any issues with swallowing
large portions. Sounds like he's a very healthy eater. From all I've
been reading this is totally normal and as long as he's staying a
healthy size he's getting all he needs.

I'm getting my third Dane in a few weeks and he is my first to be fed
raw. Printing out every post that involves Danes and making a reference
folder just in case.

Quick question for BIG dog owners. How much is too much? Say I let my
Dane go at the hind quarter of a deer. Do I set a time limit, portion
amount, or just let him go until he fills up and stops feeding? Also if
you do this how offend do you give him a Thanksgiving type meal?

Thank you

Jay

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7a. Re: Why is my dog feasting on concrete?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 7:25 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "annartisan" <annartisan@...>
wrote:
>
> but when the poor boy
> was outside eating dirt, pinecones, twigs, etc, I decided
> !@#$!@ that and dumped a pound of deer meat into his bowl.

I too think this is boredome. Dogs use their mouths for play.
Afterall they don't have hands and fingers like we do. Also, eating
stuff is getting him a lot of attention. I'm sure he loves
attention and he is being rewarded with it each time he eats
something.

To cure this problem, you must take away his opportunity to eat
inappropriate items for a few months. You must watch him the whole
time and as soon as he tries to eat something he shouldn't
immediately take him inside and ignore him for 5 minutes. Don't
fuss at him. Don't scold him, just ignore him. Don't say anything
to him. He doesn't exist for 5 minutes. At the end of 5 minutes
just act like nothing has happened. Timing is critical. You must
act IMMEDIATELY the first instant he lowers his head toward
something inappropriate.

Make sure he has 3 or 5 toys, no more. Teach him that these are his
toys and nothing else other than food is to go into his mouth. The
toys should all have different textures. Something hard like a
Nylabone, something of medium hardness like a knotted rope,
something soft like a furry or rubber chew toy, and of course he
needs a Kong. :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

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7b. Re: Why is my dog feasting on concrete?
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 9:27 am ((PST))

On Nov 6, 2007, at 2:22 AM, annartisan wrote:

>
> Our dog is NOT underweight at all. Does anyone have any clue why he
> is so voracious that he will eat anything just for the fun of
> eating it?
>
> Ann

I believe I addressed this yesterday. This is likely not a diet
issue, but one of compulsive consumption of inappropriate objects.
This is a huge sign of nerve damage from the rabies vaccine. Since
you say he is a pup, can we assume he has recently been vaccinated?
Even if not, this damage can be inherited from vaccinated parents.
Dirt, sticks, and rocks are common objects of obsession, and in fact
I still see this in my mostly cured old timer on occasion when he is
stressed.

I'd advise looking into homeopathy for this. If you'd take the topic
to Rawchat, perhaps we can go into detail.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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8. Location: Eastern Washington/Northern Idaho
Posted by: "macluerssen" macluerssen@yahoo.com macluerssen
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 7:26 am ((PST))

Hi everybody! We have friends who just slaughtered beef cows, and we
got a couple of livers, some tongue, kidney and heart for free. It's
a LOT of food...we're planning to pair it up for our 2 dogs with some
of the turkey we bought for under 60 cents/lb. this week! But it's
really more than we need. So I figured I'd post it on here, we live
in Spokane, Washington. Is there anybody on this list who lives
somewhat near here, who might want a bucket of liver? We cut it up
last night into 4-6 oz. chunks, and it's in the freezer right now.
Let me know if you're local and we'll meet up!

...geez, feels like some kind of bloody Mobster meeting or something...

Tina :)

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9a. Re: kangaroo meat
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 7:26 am ((PST))

Well, if you spent a lot of time tracking it down I'd say wait until
tomorrow and try again. He can't be that hungry if he's refusing the
food.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "doreenchui" <doreenchui@...> wrote:
>
> i tried giving, he refused although he's hungry.
> Doreen

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10a. Re: Anyone raise rabbits for feed?
Posted by: "jaygaughan" jaygaughan@yahoo.com jaygaughan
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 8:09 am ((PST))

Thank you everyone for your replies.

Yes, I did think they bred like rabbits. I guess that's just a myth.

I thought it was going to be just me putting a few cages together and
letting them get to work multiplying.

Maybe I'll raise Raccoons. Those things seem to breed like crazy around
here. They ate our 3 Peeking ducks and this morning there were 6 of
them in my yard for breakfast. Couple hanging off my bird feeders
dropping hands full of seeds to their buddies.

Jay

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10b. Re: Anyone raise rabbits for feed?
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 8:47 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jaygaughan" <jaygaughan@...> wrote:

> I thought it was going to be just me putting a few cages together and
> letting them get to work multiplying.
>
So you would try to keep and feed your dog species appropriate, while
keeping the rabbits totally inappropriate for their species? That's
just me, but for me that's plain wrong.
Sorry for the OT!!

Jennifer

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11a. Re: Pregnancy question again
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 8:47 am ((PST))

"Do I need to worry because she won't eat hardly any bone?"

A month out is a little early for her to reject bones; but I've gone a few
weeks with no bone before on pure venison with no issues. You can also give
whole eggs w/shell or bone meal - I may be concerned about lack of natural
bone for the milk production ?? anyone else have experience with bone
necessity a month before welping?
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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12a. Re: How much rabbit,how much venison?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 8:47 am ((PST))

"Also, how much and how often do people feed venison per week if there is a
large supply
available? (it's wonderful living in northern Mn.!)"

I feed 100% venison and a daily raw egg to my bunch - MT is wonderful
too!!! I through in a whole pheasant or grouse for variety (from my hunter
friends).
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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13a. Re: challenges!
Posted by: "jaygaughan" jaygaughan@yahoo.com jaygaughan
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 9:03 am ((PST))

Hi Andrea. I'm not looking to debate you on this just inform you.

Also sorry about turning this post in another direction Michelle.

Do a little searching on this and you'll find it is not just that one
area or fish that can and does have the potential to harbor this
parasite.

The parasite in question is called Nanophyetus salmincola.
It can be found in EVERY fish that spawns in fresh waters wild or
not.

http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/ClientED/salmon.asp

As for what fish contain Omegas here's a small list of the most
popular ones.

EPA and DHA are found in mackerel, salmon, herring, sardines,
sablefish (black cod), anchovies, albacore tuna, Lake Trout, Herring,
Menhaden (Bunker, a bait fish you can buy at any salt water bait shop
same as Mackerel), and many other fatty oily fish.

http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=3013797

If you give you feed your dog raw fish all you need to do to insure
this never happens is freeze the fish for few days. If you look up
the regulations for Sushi grade fish in the US you'll find ALL Sushi
grade fish should have been frozen. If you ask any people that love
fresh Sashimi they'll tell you freshness and quality are measured in
hours. Never frozen at all. I eat all the salt water fish I catch
raw. Some right on my boat. This is because salt water fish no not
harbor these parasites.

Now I'm going to make some calls to find out who's going to the Sushi
bar with me for lunch. MMMMMMmmmmmm :-))

Jay

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14.1. Re: still swallowing whole
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 9:21 am ((PST))

On Nov 5, 2007, at 10:10 PM, delcaste wrote:

>
>> Hi Silvina,
>> Sorry if i missed something along the way, but why are you afraid she
>> will keel over? KathyM
>
> Because she's been choking on her food three times in a week. My
> mistake but this sure is a hard way to learn.
>
> Silvina

Silvina, your fear and your learning are two separate things. You now
know what to do, so the danger should be gone. Don't let your
irrational fears spoil her mealtime; just deal with it. If you can
take our advice things should be fine. If you cannot, talk to us, and
we'll make something clearer.

These are all discrete incidents, coming from individual acts.There
is no reason to repeat them, and no pattern. It's just about knowing
your dog, and now you know her much better. Take a deep breath and
let her be herself.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

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15a. Re: 5 Dogs New to Raw Two Weeks
Posted by: "Sgagos@aol.com" Sgagos@aol.com sgagos69
Date: Tue Nov 6, 2007 9:50 am ((PST))

Thanks, guys. She is in pretty good health, good teeth and she's about
seven years old. She does like the ground meat but I'm afraid she'll get used to
it. I'm going to try just putting the food down separately from everyone
else and picking it back up, then repeating. If after another week of this she
doesn't bite, then I'll try some beef or pork. I definitely get that my
negative vibe is affecting her. It's a comedy routine, her and me:
Eat, Shelly, Eat!
Stares at me blankly.
Come on Shelly, Eat your food, eat your food.
I pick up the piece and give it to her in her mouth, she takes it, trying to
be polite and drops
it back down.
I must admit I repeat the above quite a few times, cutting the meat down
some more, taking the skin off, adding some parmesan, all with the same result.
Then I walk away in huff. Fine, then!

Thanks again for your input.
Stephanie

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

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