Feed Pets Raw Food: Oct 4, 2007

Thursday, October 4, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12121

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Raw and ethical/animal cruelty concerns
From: Giselle

2a. Re: Fresh Pork? Safe?
From: Tina Berry
2b. Re: Fresh Pork? Safe?
From: Laura Atkinson
2c. Re: Fresh Pork? Safe?
From: nwohiopma
2d. Re: Fresh Pork? Safe?
From: Jamie Dolan
2e. Re: Fresh Pork? Safe?
From: Sandee Lee

3a. Smoked Turkey as treats??
From: Virginia Snider
3b. Re: Smoked Turkey as treats??
From: costrowski75

4a. photos for comparison
From: Roseann

5a. Re: Puppy Scare
From: girlndocs

6a. Re: Diabetic Diet
From: VBSUSAN

7a. Re: MO - Raw feeders?
From: Vicki
7b. Re: MO - Raw feeders?
From: Michelle Grabert
7c. Re: MO - Raw feeders?
From: Denise and David Spotila
7d. Re: MO - Raw feeders?
From: betty hinson

8a. Re: Newbie predator question
From: Sonja

9.1. Re: newbie
From: andrew_schoener
9.2. Re: newbie
From: costrowski75

10. poo'n'bones
From: T Smith

11. My update
From: T Smith

12a. Re: Size Appropriate Meaty Bones for Large Dogs
From: Anna Labriola
12b. Re: Size Appropriate Meaty Bones for Large Dogs
From: Sandee Lee

13a. Re: newbie need advise on starting
From: Sandee Lee
13b. Re: newbie need advise on starting
From: costrowski75

14a. Re: Some thoughts/questions
From: Giselle

Messages
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1a. Re: Raw and ethical/animal cruelty concerns
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 3:10 pm ((PDT))

Hear Hear!!!

Well put, Kristin and I agree with your points totally!

This is a keeper.

This is a related article, I think, and another reason not to support
the pet food industry;
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/02/magazine/02pet-t.html?pagewanted=all
http://tinyurl.com/2nyhgj

TC
Giselle

> I sympathize entirely with those who are concerned or conflicted about
> supporting the commercial meat industry by buying meat for their dogs.
>
> The point has already been made on this list that by buying kibble we
> would be supporting the exact same industry, only getting lower
> quality and less appropriate food for our pets as a result of "selling
> our souls".
>
> I was reading at Rawfed.com today and found another reason for those
> of us concerned about animal cruelty to not support the kibble
> industry. Apparently the "nutrition" testing for new types of pet food
> is horribly inhumane and involves keeping dogs and cats under
> miserable conditions and feeding them a monotonous (and probably
> wholly inadequate) diet to basically see if they die or not.
>
> According to Rawfed:
>
> "The animal testing for pet foods is unusually cruel, as demonstrated
> by the recent charges brought against Iams/Eukanuba for animal
> cruelty. Lock tester dogs in cages, feed them nothing but the same
> food for 6 months, and see if they survive (oh wait, two dogs can die
> during the trial but the food can still be marketed). If they do, then
> the food is marketed as 100% complete and balanced for that life
> stage, although the testing does not serve to examine long-term
> nutritional relationships or long-term health or the relationship
> between that food and disease."
> http://rawfed.com/myths/rebuttal5.html#teeth
>
> It seems to me like even with the animal cruelty involved in the
> commercial meat industry, the weight of ethical consumerism comes out
> on the side of raw feeding: raw feed and support an industry in which
> animals for meat are treated inhumanely, or kibble feed and support
> both an industry in which animals for meat *AND* animals used for
> testing are treated inhumanely.
>
> Those of us with a concern for ethical consumer choices should also
> remember that buying kibble often supports businesses with unethical
> practices. For example, Purina is owned by Nestle, and I personally
> don't purchase any Nestle-owned products because of their hideous
> violations of the WHO's code for formula marketing and general
> sabotage of breastfeeding mothers in third-world countries.
>
> In and of itself selling "pet food" is dishonest of these companies
> because they're attempting to pull the wool over our eyes and make an
> additional profit by re-selling us the waste from other divisions,
> getting us to pay for byproducts and discards that we've already paid
> for once in the form of the food products we buy.
>
> Last but not least, there's environmental impact to consider, and the
> more processed a food is, the more environmental impact it's made. I'm
> aware of the many environmental sins of agribusiness but I choose
> less-processed agribusiness meat over agribusiness meat that's been
> raised, shipped once to the slaughterhouse, shipped again to the
> food-producing plant, processed, shipped again to the pet-food plant,
> processed once again, packaged and shipped yet again to distributing
> centers and stores.
>
> I hope this has been helpful and any thoughts are welcome.
>
> Kristin

Messages in this topic (2)
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2a. Re: Fresh Pork? Safe?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 3:16 pm ((PDT))

"But your reasoning is a tad skewed."

True. It was store bought pork roast; and they were tapeworms. I'll just
stick to venison, turkey, chicken in that order ;-) hopefully we will fill
our 3 freezers with plenty of wild game to last the summer this time.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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Messages in this topic (9)
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2b. Re: Fresh Pork? Safe?
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 3:25 pm ((PDT))

Dogs get tapeworms from injesting fleas carrying them. They could have
gotten a mouse with fleas or anything else.

On 10/4/07, Tina Berry <k9baron@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> "But your reasoning is a tad skewed."
>
> True. It was store bought pork roast; and they were tapeworms. I'll just
> stick to venison, turkey, chicken in that order ;-) hopefully we will
> fill
> our 3 freezers with plenty of wild game to last the summer this time.
> --
> Tina Berry - MT
> Kriegshund German Shepherds
> Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
> www.kriegshundgsds.com
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying
> on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated
> with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You
> agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal
> responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats,
> ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't
> agree, please unsubscribe immediately.
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Forget love...I'd rather fall in chocolate.

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Messages in this topic (9)
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2c. Re: Fresh Pork? Safe?
Posted by: "nwohiopma" nwohiopma@yahoo.com nwohiopma
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 3:49 pm ((PDT))

Hi,

I feed fresh pork about 3 times every two weeks. I've never frozen it
and haven't had a worm problem.

My butcher says pigs for slaughter are now fed inside, since the 70's,
and that drastically reduces trich in pork. The CDC says they rarely
see pork trich anymore, they see it in people eating bear meat.

FWIW. :)

Candace and the 4 Collies

Messages in this topic (9)
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2d. Re: Fresh Pork? Safe?
Posted by: "Jamie Dolan" jamiedolan@gmail.com jamiedolan
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 5:01 pm ((PDT))

>
> So it comes down to what farmer let the pig eat.
> Maybe you can ask the farmer?

HI;

This famer keeps the bigs in large open barns, but they are fenced
off, so the pigs can not get out of the barn. So while they could
have perhaps found a thing or two to eat other than there food a mouse
perhaps, they were mainly eating organic feeds.

Now, I am getting another hog later this month / early next month.
Thoses hogs will have been free roaming "pastured" and have spend
there lives outside, althought in a fenced in area.

I wonder how much I have to worry, does Trich cause a lot of problems
for healthy dogs? Are the other works a big problem or are they the
kind of thing that gets nuked with one round of a dewormed if you have
to...

Jamie

Messages in this topic (9)
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2e. Re: Fresh Pork? Safe?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 8:11 pm ((PDT))

Candace,

Your butcher is absolutely correct. Trich is about nonexistent these
days...and worms aren't often the result of diet.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "nwohiopma" <nwohiopma@yahoo.com>

I feed fresh pork about 3 times every two weeks. I've never frozen it
and haven't had a worm problem.

Messages in this topic (9)
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3a. Smoked Turkey as treats??
Posted by: "Virginia Snider" vsnider@cogeco.ca rawbglass
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 3:49 pm ((PDT))

Hi,

I have been offered a lot of fresh smoked turkey breasts. Is this ok to
feed to my Pug?

Trkey is ok with him, but I am not sure about the "smoked" part.

I was thinking to slice it up and dehydrate it for treats.

TIA,

Virginia

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Messages in this topic (2)
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3b. Re: Smoked Turkey as treats??
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 8:48 pm ((PDT))

"Virginia Snider" <vsnider@...> wrote:
>> I have been offered a lot of fresh smoked turkey breasts. Is this
ok to
> feed to my Pug?
*****
Not as real food, no. As treats used conservatively, they probably are
okay if you don't overdo it. If used properly, these turkey breasts
will last you a loooong time.

> Trkey is ok with him, but I am not sure about the "smoked" part.
*****
Smoked is cooked is not what you want to feed in raw diet. You were
right to question the smoked part.

> I was thinking to slice it up and dehydrate it for treats.
*****
If that works, fine.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. photos for comparison
Posted by: "Roseann" rgabrys@wyan.org gaiabreeze
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 3:50 pm ((PDT))

> BTW, dogs don't often use their front incisors for eating, often just
> for grabbing, or nibbling, so they can work the part back to one side
> or the other and let those strong shearing teeth take over.
> Here's a couple links to interesting (to me!) pics of wolf and dog teeth;
> dog - this has a great explanation of what each type of tooth is for,
> and how the dog uses it, despite their use of coyote skulls for
> comparisons.

Interesting since today I had hopes of looking up photos of wolf
'droppings' to compare them to my Great Dane's poop. I'm becoming a
student of poop! Wonder if I'll ever be able to consider myself a
professor...
Roseann

Messages in this topic (21)
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5a. Re: Puppy Scare
Posted by: "girlndocs" girlndocs@hotmail.com girlndocs
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 3:50 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Jan.

> I'm using a meat tenderizer to pound the heck out of the bones I'm
> giving her now.)

I advise you take a moment the next time you do this to poke around in
that chicken thigh and see what the bone fragments you create are like.

They are -- drum roll please -- VERY SHARP.

Kristin

Messages in this topic (7)
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6a. Re: Diabetic Diet
Posted by: "VBSUSAN" vbsue@comcast.net VBSUSAN
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 4:36 pm ((PDT))

BG, this is not typical that the blood glucose levels would elevate
with rawfeeding ... typically one should be on the lookout for
decreased sugar levels and the possibility of too much insulin
(hypo'ing which is insulin shock) when pulling all the carbs out of the
diet. Perhaps in your case you were experiencing a rebound affect.

I, too, have a diabetic cat, and rawfeeding her saved her life! She has
now been diabetic for 5 years and is healthy and beautiful. I test her
blood sugar levels myself twice a day before she gets her insulin ...
her average blood sugar level is 145 now, often going a couple of days
in the normal range and needing no insulin at all! This means after all
these years her pancreas has rejuvenated enough that it is working on
its own at least part of the time ... this has my anti-rawfeeding vet
absolutely confused! It is against everything he was ever taught ... 5
years ago he said that rawfeeding would kill her ... oops!

Sue

Messages in this topic (6)
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7a. Re: MO - Raw feeders?
Posted by: "Vicki" vicki@gaynicholsaccounting.com vixndogs1
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 4:36 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Pam Staley" <pam@...> wrote:
>
> Is there a list or does anyone know of MO raw - feeders? I've found a
> source that can supply 500-1000lbs of free meat - hearts/livers/
> kidneys ect ect... need to spread it around :-)
>
> Pam
> Wright City, MO
>
I am here in Spokane, MO, just south of Springfield and would be very
interested...

Vicki

Messages in this topic (8)
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7b. Re: MO - Raw feeders?
Posted by: "Michelle Grabert" chalienme@yahoo.com chalienme
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 5:01 pm ((PDT))

Wow. I wish I was in MO. michelle
Pam Staley <pam@tlcnaturally.com> wrote: Is there a list or does anyone know of MO raw - feeders? I've found a
source that can supply 500-1000lbs of free meat - hearts/livers/
kidneys ect ect... need to spread it around :-)

Pam
Wright City, MO

---------------------------------
Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.

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Messages in this topic (8)
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7c. Re: MO - Raw feeders?
Posted by: "Denise and David Spotila" brookside_casa@yahoo.com brookside_casa
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 5:01 pm ((PDT))

Me too! I live near Jefferson City MO. Let me know!

David and Denise Spotila

Brookside Casa
Standard Poodles
Great minds discuss ideas
Average minds discuss events.
Small minds discuss people.
E Roosevelt

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7d. Re: MO - Raw feeders?
Posted by: "betty hinson" b_hinson@sbcglobal.net paps4jesus
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 5:53 pm ((PDT))

I live in arkansas but coming to the springfield dog show in Oct. Would be i nterested
Betty Hinson
b_hinson@sbcglobal.net
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me Phil 4:13

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8a. Re: Newbie predator question
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 4:37 pm ((PDT))

Although I don't have much experience when it comes to witnessing a predator/prey relationship in mammals, I used to dive in an aquarium (large sharks included) with a bucket of chum attached to me to feed the other fish. The sharks were fed a varied diet including whole squid and mackeral, and they never bothered the other fish. If they were hungry, of course they'd eat the fish in the tank, but we're talking about a WILD animal with fine tuned abilities. They never ate the other fish because they were never hungry. I guess my point is, even if a dog has an instinct to kill for food, they probably won't bother livestock if they're well fed. If a dog has a strong prey drive and kills for the fun of it, then that is an issue totally seperate from the diet and isn't a behavior that will magically appear once the dog has eaten raw.

Then there's my dog....who loves chasing rabbits but would probably tuck her tail in and run to me if she ever caught up with it. She found a dead crow once and plaintively whined at it when it wouldn't throw her ball back to her. She licked a spider to death a few days ago and then nudged it and whined when it stopped moving....it got stuck in her nose and she sneezed it out and left it alone after that. She's a killer, I'm tellin' ya.....

Sonja

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9.1. Re: newbie
Posted by: "andrew_schoener" andrew_schoener@yahoo.com andrew_schoener
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 5:53 pm ((PDT))

re: the bones - what I meant was that I was curious if he would break
and swallow the bones or would he gnaw and not down the bones at all.
In fact, it looked like he gnawed bits and swallowed it all. No
traces left.

re: the wing only - I was more curious to test his taste for chicken.
My plan? I was in the grovery store and lamb necks were on sale.
That was my 1st meat purchase for him. He liked the lamb necks -
about 1" thick. But I learned that these are not ideal because
there's a tiny bone in them, and it's small enough that I think it's a
choking hazard. To hard to chew and break and too big to swallow.

This morning, I have him a lamb neck and took the bone away when that
was all that was left. I won't get more lamb. After work, I picked
up a whole chicken (on sale) and cut it into 10 pieces (2 wings, 2
drum sticks, 2 thighs, 2 breasts in halves = total 10 pieces) because
it was a real big chicken. Almost a small turkey in size. Also, I am
not sure how much to feed as I am feeling that out. In hindsight, he
could have easily done more than the big wing, but the rest was
already in the freezer. I'll just do mroe tomorrow. He seemed
satisfied and wasn't all over me begging for food tonight.

Tonight - no signs of upset stomach. I think my pup has an iron
stomach. He'll eat anything - and I mean anything - he finds. So I
suspect giving organs or another meat will not make him feel yuk, as
long as the taste is ok for him.

Tomorrow? More chicken. And I need to find a source for organs
outside of Boston. Hey, maybe an egg

Messages in this topic (56)
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9.2. Re: newbie
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 9:05 pm ((PDT))

"andrew_schoener" <andrew_schoener@...> wrote:
>> In fact, it looked like he gnawed bits and swallowed it all. No
> traces left.
*****
What a champ! A chomp champ for sure. I think your Brit pup has
real star potential.

>But I learned that these are not ideal because
> there's a tiny bone in them, and it's small enough that I think
it's a
> choking hazard. To hard to chew and break and too big to swallow.
*****
Small bones can indeed be a problem. Even for dogs that take their
time, at some point the bone will be ready to swallow, at least in
the dog's mind.

I won't get more lamb.
*****
Oh, you should! Really. Just don't get that. Lamb is wonderful.
If I had access to livestock of my choice, my choice would be goat
and lamb. Consider lamb shanks and lamb breasts and whole, unsliced
lamb necks. Lamb shoulder roasts are very nice as well. Lamb heart,
kidney and tripe are terrific.

Also, I am
> not sure how much to feed as I am feeling that out. In hindsight,
he
> could have easily done more than the big wing, but the rest was
> already in the freezer. I'll just do mroe tomorrow. He seemed
> satisfied and wasn't all over me begging for food tonight.
*****
IMO you are using the right criteria to decide amount so keep it up.
Adjust as needed.

> Tonight - no signs of upset stomach. I think my pup has an iron
> stomach.
*****
Like I said: a raw star in the making.

> Tomorrow? More chicken. And I need to find a source for organs
> outside of Boston. Hey, maybe an egg
*****
Yup, you got yourself a plan. Way to go.
Chris O

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10. poo'n'bones
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 5:53 pm ((PDT))

Casper pooped out yellowish runny & pieces of bone today. Like half a 3"
leg bone (I could identify them)
Is his stomach acids just not quite up to par yet?
Trina

--
Chip (deaf Dalmatian)
Casper (deaf Great Dane)
Whisper (deaf Great Dane)
Louie (hearing Great Dane)
Joey (deaf & blind Lhasa Apso)
Amy (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Cassandra (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Mr Paris (Lhasa Apso)
Chloe (deaf & blind Spaniel mix)

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11. My update
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 5:54 pm ((PDT))

I was worried about my dog only having a few teeth but she does well with
the raw chicken (and fingers if you aren't careful).
My little teenie Lhasa with deformed front legs is doing very well. Mind
you she cannot tug like the others since those front legs don't 'hold
anything down' but she is using her back teeth sideways to chew.
Little Whisper hasn't had another seizure. I think the beef & the seizure
were just coincidental.
My house sounds like a Dane-train thunder-storming-earthquake with all their
new found energy! (THANKS MAGGIE lol) We are all taking bets on when they
will fly out the front living room window with all their energy (like a
cowboy bar in the good ole' days)!
BUT, the park people are certainly noticing the difference in them.
They are eyeballing my guinea pigs but no attacking :-) I think the meat
eating hasn't made them ferocious *s*
I'm still screwing up on their food because they go from good poo to runs,
but one of these days I'll get it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have two more to put on raw but for now, I cannot switch them.
Trina
--
Chip (deaf Dalmatian)
Casper (deaf Great Dane)
Whisper (deaf Great Dane)
Louie (hearing Great Dane)
Joey (deaf & blind Lhasa Apso)
Amy (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Cassandra (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Mr Paris (Lhasa Apso)
Chloe (deaf & blind Spaniel mix)

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12a. Re: Size Appropriate Meaty Bones for Large Dogs
Posted by: "Anna Labriola" taggartgalt@yahoo.com taggartgalt
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 8:01 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "sjhansler" <sjhansler@...> wrote:

> Can someone suggest what might be "size appropriate" for meaty
> boness - for chicken and then for meat other than chicken.

Just wanted to chime in; I'm currently feeding my 55 pound doberman
puppy a whole turkey. I scored a 17ish pound turkey for 85 cents a
pound, with innards and neck. Now, he does limit the size of his own
meals. But, today is Thursday, I've been feeding him the same turkey
almost every meal since last Saturday. It's starting to get a little
gamey, but there isn't much left. :o) That's my idea of a big
meal!!! You should see him: eat, work on the turkey, then snore on
his bed. Like Thanksgiving....

Anna and Khan(27 weeks)

Messages in this topic (6)
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12b. Re: Size Appropriate Meaty Bones for Large Dogs
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 8:05 pm ((PDT))

Anna, how cute! Hope you have lots of pictures! :))

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Anna Labriola" <taggartgalt@yahoo.com>
Just wanted to chime in; I'm currently feeding my 55 pound doberman
puppy a whole turkey. I scored a 17ish pound turkey for 85 cents a
pound, with innards and neck. Now, he does limit the size of his own
meals. But, today is Thursday, I've been feeding him the same turkey
almost every meal since last Saturday. It's starting to get a little
gamey, but there isn't much left. :o) That's my idea of a big
meal!!! You should see him: eat, work on the turkey, then snore on
his bed. Like Thanksgiving....

Messages in this topic (6)
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13a. Re: newbie need advise on starting
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 8:09 pm ((PDT))

Jessica,

I would go cold chicken! :)) Start out slow with one protein source for a
few days or a week, not a lot of variety or too much food at one time.
Don't worry about detox....she'll be fine.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "firedestroyer2001" <firedestroyer2001@yahoo.com>

Hello my name is Jessica and I would like some tips on feeding my 12
pound 8 month old shetland sheepdog a raw diet what do you recommend I
start with? chicken? I have read som article on raw feeding and I am a
little worried about the detox phase I really dont want runny poo
everywhere is their away to avoid it? should I mix raw with kibble at
first or should I just switch her cold chicken different sites tell you
different things so now I am just confused HELP!!!! thank you

Messages in this topic (3)
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13b. Re: newbie need advise on starting
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 8:39 pm ((PDT))

"firedestroyer2001" <firedestroyer2001@...> wrote:
what do you recommend I
> start with? chicken?
*****
As good a place as any, yes. Easy to get, easy to pay for, easy to
digest.

I have read som article on raw feeding and I am a
> little worried about the detox phase
*****
There is no such thing as detox or else every bump, zit, tear, belch,
hiccup, fart, "irregular" stool, yawn or blister is also detox. I
would argue for everything being detox instead of only special,
specific effluents being detox.

Beyond that, the most common cause of loose stool is feeding too much.
Too much food, too much fat, too much new. The easiest way to minimize
loose stools is to feed meals of an appropriate size or perhaps
smaller, to feed more meals rather than fewer, to keep it simple.

No one wants runny poo but it's not bad. Just inconvenient. What's
bad is artifical stool hardeners that kibble uses.

should I mix raw with kibble at
> fir
*****
Nope, no sense in prolonging the insult of kibble.

or should I just switch her cold chicken different sites tell you
> different things so now I am just confused HELP!!!!
*****
You pays your money and you takes your choice. Since the advice on
most lists is free, you really do need to make your own decision. If
you are eager to get kibble out of your pup's life, then you'll want to
move to raw as quickly as you can. If there are other reasons for
feeding raw, then you must take them into consideration.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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14a. Re: Some thoughts/questions
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 8:12 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Fiona!
Welcome to raw feeding!

The Tamaskan is an interesting looking breed, very wolflike.

You've gotten some great advice, already.

The only thing I have to add is a link to a UK supplier of frozen
whole prey;
http://www.livefoods.co.uk/

There may be other suppliers, but this is the only one I've been able
to find in the UK. Rodentpro, in the US, offers guinea pig also, but I
don't see that on the livefoods site.

Feeding some large whole rabbits, rats and hamsters could add the
protein variety, liver, other organs and fur, skin and other body
parts you want to add to your dog's diet. When you feed whole prey,
the meat to bone to organ ratio is perfect for each animal.

If you've the space, and the inclination, you could look into raising
one or more of these type of animals for your dog.

Chicken is, too often, a staple here at my house, too. I stock up on
turkeys when they come on sale, pork shoulders or fresh hams. Those,
and chicken, provides many boneless and some bony meals for my dog.
Beef heart, or any heart, is good meatymeat too. I even buy ground
beef, uh, mince, when it is too cheap to pass up, and freeze portions
with pork neck bones or the like, and feed it frozen, or partially so.

The Lis List is a terrific resource;
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/139618
Post #139618
I'm sure you can use the ideas compiled there to spark some ways for
you to find more protein variety.

Tripe, if you can get it, can be mixed with liver. Dogs usually go
crazy for it.

HTH
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Hello everyone. This is my first post. I have a 15 month old
> Tamaskan dog (Ayasca)who I have been feeding raw since he was around 4
> months (Barf - sorry, I know its a bad word).
<snip>
eg chicken
> quarters, pork ribs, ox-tail, lamb chops, pork chops, etc. Probably
> not enough meat by your ratios? I am in the process of (hopefully)
> acquiring some intact (fur on) rabbits from someone. He also has the
> odd mouse when he catches one.
>
> Probably should say the Tamaskan is a rare breed - mix of Siberian
> Husky/Malamute/GSD, so Ayasca would probably be classed as a large dog.
>
> Any comments/advice would be gratefully received.
>
> Thanks
>
> Fiona and Ayasca

Messages in this topic (5)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12120

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Newbie here with a question
From: Andrea
1b. Re: Newbie here with a question
From: jennifer_hell

2a. Re: Wolf goes fishing for salmon
From: nkjvcjs
2b. Re: Wolf goes fishing for salmon
From: Laura Atkinson
2c. Re: Wolf goes fishing for salmon
From: PK Shader

3a. Re: Hello....I'm a Newbie!!
From: Meredith Soriano

4.1. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
From: costrowski75
4.2. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
From: katkellm

5.1. newbie
From: andrew_schoener
5.2. Re: newbie
From: costrowski75

6a. Re: Predator behavior
From: pelirojita

7a. Fresh Pork? Safe?
From: Jamie Dolan
7b. Re: Fresh Pork? Safe?
From: costrowski75
7c. Re: Fresh Pork? Safe?
From: Tina Berry
7d. Re: Fresh Pork? Safe?
From: costrowski75

8a. Need direction for Newbies
From: Brenda & Karl Miller
8b. Re: Need direction for Newbies
From: Tina Berry

9a. Re: first day success and chicken feet
From: Giselle

10a. New Here
From: rlayt
10b. Re: New Here
From: Andrea

11a. Newbie predator question
From: Brenda & Karl Miller
11b. Re: Newbie predator question
From: Andrea
11c. Re: Newbie predator question
From: katkellm

12a. Re: Ground beef
From: Sonja

13. newbie need advise on starting
From: firedestroyer2001

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Newbie here with a question
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 1:07 pm ((PDT))

Yes, heart is most definitely a muscle meat, and a great one at that.
Just be aware that heart meals usually result in really dark poos, so
don't let it freak you out.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jennifer_hell" <jenniferhell@...>
wrote:
> They're not whole chicken and turkeys,I don't know how much meat is
> left on them until I get them. Carcasses are what is left after the
> meat for human consumption is removed.
> I thought heart is muscle meat? Would that be bad to add in the
> beginning?

Messages in this topic (6)
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1b. Re: Newbie here with a question
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 1:13 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Andrea" <poketmouse45@...> wrote:
>
> Yes, heart is most definitely a muscle meat, and a great one at that.
> Just be aware that heart meals usually result in really dark poos, so
> don't let it freak you out.
>
> Andrea
Ah, okay, thank you! =D

Jennifer with Mandy from Germany

Messages in this topic (6)
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2a. Re: Wolf goes fishing for salmon
Posted by: "nkjvcjs" nefreed@gmail.com nkjvcjs
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 1:08 pm ((PDT))

I took my Katie to a park with a pond, and she popped into the pond,
and came out, less than 30 seconds later with a fish in her mouth.
I made her drop it, but it convinced me that fish is an important part
of her diet.

-Nicole
Katie, Petey and the cats

Messages in this topic (5)
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2b. Re: Wolf goes fishing for salmon
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 1:28 pm ((PDT))

Well heck, if I drop a sock in the hallway, it's immediately in someone's
mouth...that doesn't make it necessary for their health.

On 10/4/07, nkjvcjs <nefreed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I took my Katie to a park with a pond, and she popped into the pond,
> and came out, less than 30 seconds later with a fish in her mouth.
> I made her drop it, but it convinced me that fish is an important part
> of her diet.
>
> -Nicole
> Katie, Petey and the cats

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Forget love...I'd rather fall in chocolate.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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2c. Re: Wolf goes fishing for salmon
Posted by: "PK Shader" Forloveofdogs@gmail.com forloveofdogs
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 1:32 pm ((PDT))

When Honey was younger (before his brain bleed) I used to buy big, fat
chubs at the bait store and throw them into his large kiddie pool. He
would have an absolute blast catching them and tossing them to the
other Jacks who weren't as good at catching them as he.

It was a great way to work their minds and bodies while providing them
the freshest of meals.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/SATZ_Main/

Two Sided Communication, Cooperation, Respect

Messages in this topic (5)
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3a. Re: Hello....I'm a Newbie!!
Posted by: "Meredith Soriano" mom2mytwinz@yahoo.com mom2mytwinz
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 1:12 pm ((PDT))

***EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

You were helpful.....I'm watching her eat that chicken plain she's dragging it everywhere so I can't get a pic this time, but this is great!!

"The purity of a person's heart can be quickly measured by how they regard animals"

Meredith

---------------------------------
Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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4.1. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 1:24 pm ((PDT))

Gail Edmond <windybond1@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks i didnt realise you meant this thought you meant trim the
reply even though i thought it was trim enough. How stupid you must
think but i am sure there are other newbies to groups who dont
realise this.
>
> Gail.
>
> Ps i have trimmed i think
*****
Tee hee. You get full marks for trying.
If you had trimmed with a vengenance, you'd also have deleted the
stuff below that I just this very moment put in brackets:

[----- Original Message ----
> From: costrowski75 <Chriso75@...>
> To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, 4 October, 2007 4:49:21 AM
> Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
>
> , Gail Edmond <windybond1@ ...> wrote:]

And this all that would have been included in your response to the
list:

> Trim as in cut out--delete, remove--material from the old post
>

What we all (moderators and subscribers alike) love to see is a
message as lengthy as it needs to be to adewquately describe the
situation, to which is attached as little as possible of the original
poster's message. Sometimes, if it helps relay your response, it's
good to include reference bits from the original post. It's rarely
necessary to include the entire original post. And it's often very
confusing when one does.

Beginners get special dispensation.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (38)
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4.2. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 2:16 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Gail Edmond <windybond1@...> wrote:
>
> thanks for the reply i think you are probably right it is me at fault.

Hi Gail,
I really didn't mean it was your fault in a bad way. Actually, its a
compliment that you love your dogs so much that you are worried about
their health and are getting back spasms sitting over you computer
trying to learn about raw feeding. I was lucky when i started feeding
raw, my 3 dogs took to it instantly. I didn't have to use the tough
love approach, so i can only imagine how hard it is to pick up their
food and know they didn't eat. In the same token, when my son was
young, he's 18 now, he became an Oreo cookie and Lucky Charm cereal
connoisseur. When i had to finally tell him no junk food allowed, it
was hard on me because he did the 3year old tantrum thing. I was able
to stay the course because i knew i was right. So, what i'm trying to
say is that by staying strong, you are doing the best thing for your
dogs. It seems hard to you because you probably aren't for sure, as
in 100% sure, that you are doing the right thing, but i can tell you
that from my experience with my dogs, raw feeding is the best thing
that i ever did for them. Honest. How is it going today? KathyM who
is positive that no one on this list thinks that you are stupid
because "Everyone who got where he is, started where he was."

Messages in this topic (38)
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5.1. newbie
Posted by: "andrew_schoener" andrew_schoener@yahoo.com andrew_schoener
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 1:30 pm ((PDT))

Hi - I just gave my 6 month 38 pound brittany his first taste of
chicken. It's a rather large chicken wing. He's a fairly polite
eater, so I am not too worried about this. He's more of a gnawer, but
i will be curious what happens with the bones.

Any Boston are raw feds? I'm looking for good sources.

Andy

Messages in this topic (54)
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5.2. Re: newbie
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 2:45 pm ((PDT))

"andrew_schoener" <andrew_schoener@...> wrote:
>
> Hi - I just gave my 6 month 38 pound brittany his first taste of
> chicken. It's a rather large chicken wing.
*****
A 38lb pup needs more than a wing. Rather large notwithstanding. Are
you dabbling with raw parts as a supplement to kibble or are you and
your pup good to go? What's the plan, Stan?

Gnawing is good. Gnawing is terrific in fact. Much more productive
than grab and swallow and even on a mere wing gnawing will benefit
teeth and gums.

> i will be curious what happens with the bones.
*****
I am confused. Do you mean what happens to the bones after the pup has
eaten them? Or what happens when the pup has gnawed off all the meat?

I suggest you try a Cornish game hen quarter, or perhaps a bone-in
chicken breast for some real food, some real raw dining entertainment.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (54)
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6a. Re: Predator behavior
Posted by: "pelirojita" kerrymurray7@gmail.com pelirojita
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 1:34 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

Hi Carol,

I think the point has been made many times here that this is an issue
of training and not of diet.

But if it helps your friend to know our story. My 40+lb lab mix and
80+lb golden retriever have been rawfed since the beginning of July
this year. Their diet is primarily chicken and turkey carcasses
(because I can get ethically raised, appropriately fed birds for a
price/lb that is in my budget).

We have 2 parrots and at various times foster many more. Some of the
parrots fly and they all are rescues and subject to some nervous
behavior which means lots of squawking and nervous flapping of wings.
Neither of my dogs respond to these behaviors. Several times a
parrot with clipped wings has flown directly into my golden retriever
and bounced off her and she hasn't moved. Yet, my dogs will pursue
pigeons and other wild birds that invade "their" backyard.

The only time we had a slight issue was when an African Grey, climbed
down from his cage, toddled over to me and bit my foot to get my
attention. He had climbed over my lab mix to get to me and the lab
did not move. But when the lab saw him bite me and heard my surprised
response, he came in to defend me and there was a kerfluffle of
feathers. I immediately called off my lab. The Grey had lost 2 tail
feathers, and otherwise there was not a mark on him - though he
weighed only 500 grams and had just been in a tussle with a 40lb dog
with large teeth defending his human.

My golden retriever came to us as a stray, had been well-trained by
someone in her past and it only took diverting her attention from the
parrots 2 or 3 times before she learned not to bother them. My lab
mix came to us as a puppy. He once got close enough to sniff our
Pionus parrot when he was quite young and she wheeled on him and bit
him on the nose. He has never bothered her or any other parrot in our
house since (except for above exception when he was defending me) and
this is a dog who pushes every boundary and would be considered a
"handful."

They both practically do backflips to get at their raw meals but don't
attempt to create their own raw meals. Well-trained herding dogs
should have their prey drives well in check.

Good luck,
Kerry

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Andrea" <poketmouse45@...> wrote:
>
> My dogs have the prey drive of a kumquat even though they are fed raw.
> They don't make the correlation between what mom feeds them and the
> living animals they see. Lots of raw fed dogs live with livestock,
> hunt with their owners, etc without attacking the animals. If they
> don't hurt the goats now they won't when they are fed raw, even if
> their diet is primarily goat.
>
> Andrea
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Carol Dunster <cedunster@> wrote:
> >
> > I was talking with a friend about feeding raw and he said that he
> > wouldn't be comfortable doing that because he has two 95 lb dogs and
> > livestock. He said that he couldn't be sure that, having been eating
> > raw meat, they wouldn't go for his livestock - esp. if one of them
> > were bleeding. What is everyone's experience on that?
>

Messages in this topic (9)
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7a. Fresh Pork? Safe?
Posted by: "Jamie Dolan" jamiedolan@gmail.com jamiedolan
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 1:49 pm ((PDT))

HI,

I got a organic hog today, it is frozen, raised by a fairly small
local farmer. I had it butchered on tuesday. Should I keep it in the
freezer for a while before I feed to to make sure any parasites
(trich) are dead, or is this not really a problem even with a pig from
a small farm? (Is this really only a problem with wild game and
fish?)?

If you reccomend I keep this frozen, how long? I keep my freezers
atleast -10 or lower.

Thanks

Jamie

Messages in this topic (4)
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7b. Re: Fresh Pork? Safe?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 2:10 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Jamie Dolan" <jamiedolan@...> wrote:
>
> HI,
>
> I got a organic hog today, it is frozen, raised by a fairly small
> local farmer. I had it butchered on tuesday. Should I keep it in the
> freezer for a while before I feed to to make sure any parasites
> (trich) are dead,
*****
IMO if the farm was truly certified organic, the pig will be fine. But
if by "organic" you mean "naturally raised" and that includes letting
the pig root as pigs so love to do, you might want to freeze the meat
first. The problem with pigs is they really do eat everything if
allowed to.

So it comes down to what farmer let the pig eat.
Maybe you can ask the farmer?
It's entirely possible I am being too much a worrywart.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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7c. Re: Fresh Pork? Safe?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 2:18 pm ((PDT))

"But if by "organic" you mean "naturally raised" and that includes letting
the pig root as pigs so love to do, you might want to freeze the meat first.
The problem with pigs is they really do eat everything if allowed to."

The one and only time I fed pork, mine got worms. Coincidence? I don't
know, but they've never had worms since and I don't feed pork. How many
wild pigs to wolves actually eat?? IMO deer, antelope, elk is the best to
feed and most of what they would eat in the wild, but I know small game is
good too, rabbit, etc. wolves would eat - I'm just not a big fan of pork.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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7d. Re: Fresh Pork? Safe?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 2:54 pm ((PDT))

"Tina Berry" <k9baron@...> wrote:
> The one and only time I fed pork, mine got worms. Coincidence?
*****
What kind of worms? What kind of pork? Unless and until you can
provide some evidence to contrary, I am comfortable seeing this as a
good example of superstitious behavior. I mean, you can feed pork or
not feed pork, it's okay by me but worms after feeding pork is
probably in the Myths files on Rawfed.com.

How many
> wild pigs to wolves actually eat??
*****
Oh maybe none. But pigs are ungulates and wolves eat ungulates. How
many wolves eat chicken? Oh maybe none. Pigs are closer to being
species appropriate than chickens are, yet you have no problem
including chicken in your dogs' diet.

I'm just not a big fan of pork.
*****
Clearly. Which is cool. But your reasoning is a tad skewed.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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8a. Need direction for Newbies
Posted by: "Brenda & Karl Miller" Brendajo_Miller@msn.com brendadoxy
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 1:59 pm ((PDT))

We're totally new to raw feeding; want/need to start today. Where can I
find how much to feed my two 2-year-old dachshunds, and the ratio of
meat/bone/organs. So much info to wade through; a point in the right
direction will be very appreciated.
Brenda & Karl

Messages in this topic (2)
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8b. Re: Need direction for Newbies
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 2:17 pm ((PDT))

"Where can I find how much to feed my two 2-year-old dachshunds, and the
ratio of meat/bone/organs."

The easiest way to start.... go buy some bone in chicken breasts or whole
chickens (whatever is on sale) and give them 2-3% of their total adult
weight. Ratios are 80% meat, 10% organs, 10% bone. So your little guys may
eat a leg/thigh once a day, or a bone in breast, depending on the size of
your fur kids.

After they've adjusted to chicken (2-3 weeks), you can start them on other
meat source. I feed mine whatever is on sale when it is not hunting
season. So we are on elk, venison, antelope right now. We were on chicken
all summer when I ran out of wild game. Liver we feed either once a week or
when we were on chickens, they got the innards of the chicken daily.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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9a. Re: first day success and chicken feet
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 2:14 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Caroline!
If they're attached to the chicken, and he is still
trying to swallow them whole, you might want to chop them off before
you feed them and freeze several in a shallow container of ice. I give
these to my Newfy girl as chewies - I buy the feet separately.

If he is getting to the end of the leg and just doing the crunch -
swallow routine, thats normal dog 'chewing', ime and I wouldn't stress
over it.
TC
Giselle

> Thanks
> Another easy morning, Londo still a bit slow but he is anyway LOL
>
> He seemed to be trying to swallow the foot again, once he got down
to that level, so I took it off him.
> Am I being over cautious?
> He could do with the natural glucosomaine as he is currently
supplemented he has a narrowing of his spine and his back end is very
under developed.
>
> Thanks
> Caroline, Londo and Bonnie the chicken queen

Messages in this topic (20)
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10a. New Here
Posted by: "rlayt" rlayt@bresnan.net rlayt
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 2:15 pm ((PDT))

I am new here and I do have a couple of questions. I've been sitting
back and reading before I post. I'm sorry if I cover ground that has
already been plowed once - I am a worrier. Please don't bit me. ;)

Until I am sure I understand how raw-feeding works I am using
Nature's Variety raw patties. I want to save money and the two dogs
3-1/2 patties per day (2lbs a day) so a $24-26.00 bag (12 patties=6
lbs) lasts only three days. Its very expensive but I rationalize
that I am saving money on vet bills in the long run. (Not so true
perhaps since food is only one factor and we just went a round with
the vet trying to figure out why they were having intermittent
diarrhea and vomiting, along with my friends' pack of five dogs. We
got rid of the chicken jerky treats and the illness ended.)

Unfortunately, I haven't bought a freezer yet due to other unexpected
financial outlays but hopefully soon. Having just the small freezer
compartment limits me a great deal. Chickens take up a lot of room
whereas rolls of patties don't.

My dogs are Mitzi, a 49 lb Husky/Border Collie mix, 6 years old
adopted from the shelter two years ago, and Lucas, a Foxhound mix,
weighing 62 lbs, 2 yrs old, adopted a year ago. Both seem to be at
their optimal weight. So I figure that raw feeding guidelines would
have me feed Mitzi around a pound to 1-1/2 pounds a day. Lucas would
get between 1-1/4 up to 2 lbs (he has a higher metabolism than Mitzi
so I rounded up from 1.86). Every now ad thenLucas is catching and
eating a sparrow sized bird. Will I need to worm him because of that?

Translating the recommended amounts into actual food seems like the
tricky part. Especially when you start talking 80% meat, 10%bone,
and 10% organ. If I buy ground rabbit (whole carcass and fur) from
here http://www.hare-today.com/index.php?cPath=21I am thinking it
would be just like feeding patties? I'd just have to measure and
package for individual meals?

How do you divide up stuff so you hit the 80-10-10 mark when not
feeding the whole animal? Just eyeball it?

Am I worrying too much about giving them the right food? After all,
before kibble they ate our table scraps!

I've been giving my dogs soup bones which sometimes have chunks of
meat still on besides having all that good marrow. Primarily, I get
beef knuckle bones with the leg part detached so they have to spend
some time on it. I got them the kind with a leg part still on once
and disliked how the joint looked like they could get something
caught on a tooth. There have never been any ill-effects (stomach or
intestine) from those. Although one dog got his jaw trapped inside
one once and I just had to gently help him remove it. Should I worry
about possible ill-effects if they have each consumed at least one of
those every three days? Would getting a jaw caught happen very often?

Robin L.
Helena, Montana
Another convert away from kibble thanks to the greed and lack of
ethics on the part of the pet food companies.

Messages in this topic (19)
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10b. Re: New Here
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 2:54 pm ((PDT))

> I am new here and I do have a couple of questions. I've been
> sitting back and reading before I post.

An exelent idea, I see you already picked up a lot! Don't worry
about asking questions, I think everything has been covered at least
once over the years.

> Unfortunately, I haven't bought a freezer yet due to other
> unexpected financial outlays but hopefully soon.

Check to see if there is a freecycle (or similar) group in your
area. I got a 5' stand up freezer for free when I started raw
feeding, and one is offered about every month. Not the large energy
star that I dream of, but it works.

> Translating the recommended amounts into actual food seems like the
> tricky part. Especially when you start talking 80% meat, 10%bone,
> and 10% organ.

Don't fret about getting the ratios right, they are just a
guideline. Read it as "Mostly meat, some edible bone, and some
organ"

> If I buy ground rabbit (whole carcass and fur)
<SNIP> Iam thinking it would be just like feeding patties?

Probably, but that isn't the route you want to go. Better to buy a
whole rabbit and cut it into parts if need be. Ground food provides
no dental benefits to speak of, unlike whole foods.

> How do you divide up stuff so you hit the 80-10-10 mark when not
> feeding the whole animal?

Every meal doesn't have to have meat bone and organ in it. The ratio
is based on what a prey animal is made up of, so if you feed through
a whole rabbit you hit the mark, even if it takes four days. That's
the beauty of feeding whole foods.

> Am I worrying too much about giving them the right food?

(= yes, you are. In reality, prey model feeding is extremely easy
and flexible. It is balance over time. Over a week, over a month,
no big deal.

> I've been giving my dogs soup bones which sometimes have chunks of
> meat still on besides having all that good marrow.

The problem with soup bones is that they used to hold up a cow, which
means they are wicked strong. Strong enough to chip or crack a
tooth, even. Lots of people who fed their dogs wreck bones (as we
like to call them) end up with at least one fractured tooth down the
line. Chewing these bones really weaken teeth over time. Better to
give them something complicated and not so hard, like a pig leg or a
slab of beef rib bones (which are still hard, but didn't hold up the
cow).

At first when you go to whole foods you probably want to stick with
one protein source for a week or two so that their digestive systems
don't get overrun. Add a new protein source at a time to reduce the
likelyhood of loose stools. Ask more questions if you need.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (19)
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11a. Newbie predator question
Posted by: "Brenda & Karl Miller" Brendajo_Miller@msn.com brendadoxy
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 2:16 pm ((PDT))

We're brand new (today) to raw feeding and we've been reading through
the predator posts but didn't find an answer to our question.

Our (2) dachshunds killed a possum last week, have killed many rodents
such as field mice, have chased and cornered racoons (yikes!) and
possums, and chase everything, including cats, out of our yard.

Is there anything I need to worry or think about since their prey genes
are quite strong and active? Up until now we've taken everything that
they've killed away from them but could we let them eat what they kill
or might that encourage them to kill something they shouldn't? We doubt
they could catch a cat but...? Dachshunds were bred to hunt so we're
unsure here.

Thank you for your help.

Karl & Brenda

Messages in this topic (3)
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11b. Re: Newbie predator question
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 2:34 pm ((PDT))

I doubt that raw feeding the dogs will cause them to kill more often,
since they will be getting plenty of food from you I doubt they would
want to expend the energy to hunt down something on their own just to
eat. But when they do get the urge to bring something down they
might decide to eat it, you know, since it is already there.

My cats hunted birds and mice long before we switched them to raw
food and their level of hunting hasn't changed since. The difference
is that two of them actually eat what they kill now (though they
still refuse whole prey that *I* offer them). The other one still
brings the prize home for dad and probably wouldn't eat it if I
sauteed it for him.

Lots of people have dogs and cats that catch their own food from time
to time. There's a possibility the animal might have fleas or some
beastie in it, but I don't worry about that with the cats. If it
worries you there is the option of freezing it before feeding to kill
any parasites. I try to take away the mice from the cats since I
don't know if anyone in the neighborhood leaves out poison for them.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Brenda & Karl Miller"
<Brendajo_Miller@...> wrote:

> Our (2) dachshunds killed a possum last week, have killed many
> rodents such as field mice, have chased and cornered racoons
> (yikes!) and possums, and chase everything, including cats, out of
> our yard.

Messages in this topic (3)
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11c. Re: Newbie predator question
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 2:53 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Brenda & Karl Miller" Up until
now we've taken everything that
> they've killed away from them but could we let them eat what they kill
> or might that encourage them to kill something they shouldn't?
>
Hi Karl & Brenda,
From my experience with my high prey drive dog, if you allow them to
eat what they kill it will intensify their prey drive. However,
that's not necessarily a bad thing as long as they understand what
they are allowed to pursue. In my life cats, sheep, foals, horses and
other dogs are a never allowed. I live on a farm and the fact that
the raccoons and possums and squirrels are an always allowed to pursue
means that the critters are not pooping on my horses hay and ripping
open my feed bags and spreading my garbage all over the place. My dog
has never ever eaten a raccoon or a possum that he has caught, but
squirrels and rabbits are always eaten. You run the risk of a
parasite infection because the wild meat isn't frozen first, but i
have never had a problem. Trying to salvage this as on topic, if your
dogs catch something and you can take it away from them, freeze for a
while and then let them decide if they want to eat it. KathyM

Messages in this topic (3)
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12a. Re: Ground beef
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 2:18 pm ((PDT))

I'm a complete chicken and started raw in May...Kodie ate ONLY ground turkey for 1-2 months and didn't have a problem with sloppy poo. It was just tiny and dark. I finally got up the nerve to add bones to her diet in July or so, and when she didn't keel over and die, I became more confident. Now, I have no problems handing over bones.

Sonja

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (22)
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13. newbie need advise on starting
Posted by: "firedestroyer2001" firedestroyer2001@yahoo.com firedestroyer2001
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 2:54 pm ((PDT))

Messages in this topic (1)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12119

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Hello....I'm a Newbie!!
From: Andrea

2a. Re: Predator behavior
From: T Smith
2b. Re: Predator behavior
From: girlndocs
2c. Re: Predator behavior
From: katkellm
2d. Re: Predator behavior
From: Andrea

3a. Re: Ground beef
From: T Smith
3b. Re: Ground beef
From: Andrea
3c. Re: Ground beef
From: costrowski75
3d. Re: Ground beef
From: Carol Dunster
3e. Re: Ground beef
From: Andrea

4a. Re: Puppy Scare
From: carnesbill
4b. Re: Puppy Scare
From: PK Shader
4c. Re: Puppy Scare
From: costrowski75

5a. Re: Newbie here with a question
From: Andrea
5b. Re: Newbie here with a question
From: jennifer_hell

6a. A good raw-inspired chew?
From: Kathie Middlemiss
6b. Re: A good raw-inspired chew?
From: Andrea

7a. Re: Wolf goes fishing for salmon
From: costrowski75

8.1. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
From: Gail Edmond
8.2. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
From: Gail Edmond
8.3. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
From: Gail Edmond

9a. Re: PLEASE HELP- how much to feed?
From: Gail Edmond

10. Grizzly bear meat ok???
From: sfed57

11a. Re: Feeding Toy breeds
From: Gail Edmond

12a. Re: Salmon oil and other questions - Now entropion and freezers
From: lauraanimal1

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Hello....I'm a Newbie!!
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 11:35 am ((PDT))

> I'm starting her out on raw chicken for the first time and she
looks
> at me like I'm nuts!!

Some dogs dont get that the chicken is food at first. Try cutting
ribbons in the meat and or sprinkling some parmesan cheese to get her
to try it.

> How much chicken a day should she eat?

A good starting point is 2-3% of her expected ideal ADULT weight
every day. Not much for little ones, but lots of small breeds need
more than that. Just let her eat for now and if she gains too much
weight cut back down.

> Should it be completely thawed out or can it be a bit frozen

Small dogs sometimes don't do well with cold food since it can lower
their body temp. Start with thawed and later you can see how she
tolerates cooler food.

> does RAW feeding include raw veggies too?

Nope, dogs are carnivores and have no nutritional need for vegetation.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (2)
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2a. Re: Predator behavior
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 11:36 am ((PDT))

I think your friend's concern is justifiable. I have 3 Danes that will be
HUGE! but does that mean I should be concerned about my son getting a cut?
I also had the same fear from people telling me that but there are some
articles available that people will give you the links to on this list.
Just print them & give your friend a copy :-)
I would think that feeding raw dead meat is not the same as bringing down
live meat & killing it themselves. I think it is already in a dog's
instinct to kill if they are going to do it.
Trina

On 10/4/07, Carol Dunster <cedunster@centurytel.net> wrote:
>
> I was talking with a friend about feeding raw and he said that he
> wouldn't be comfortable doing that because he has two 95 lb dogs and
> livestock. He said that he couldn't be sure that, having been eating
> raw meat, they wouldn't go for his livestock - esp. if one of them
> were bleeding. What is everyone's experience on that?
>
> I could see the concern with dogs that large, they could kill his
> goats all too easily.
>
> ~ Carol
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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2b. Re: Predator behavior
Posted by: "girlndocs" girlndocs@hotmail.com girlndocs
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 11:36 am ((PDT))

> Kibble fed dogs kill animals sometimes and so do raw fed dogs
> sometimes. Diet has no bearing on it.

Exactly, Bill.

When we brought Zoe home the only things she had eaten since being
weaned were kibble and commercial dog treats.

The first time she saw my hens she literally broke the gate down to
try and get them. It took me, my husband and a prong collar to bodily
haul her back to the house.

Since then I've worked on "leave it" with her and desensitized her to
the chickens a bit (the wire gate is now covered with plywood, so she
can hear them but usually not see them). Despite being raw fed she's
way less nutso about them. She will run up to the pen to fetch her
ball and come back to me without obsessive sniffing or listening.

Kristin

Messages in this topic (8)
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2c. Re: Predator behavior
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 11:37 am ((PDT))

Hi Carol,
Message# 142658 is my farm dog story. KathyM

Messages in this topic (8)
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2d. Re: Predator behavior
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 11:37 am ((PDT))

My dogs have the prey drive of a kumquat even though they are fed raw.
They don't make the correlation between what mom feeds them and the
living animals they see. Lots of raw fed dogs live with livestock,
hunt with their owners, etc without attacking the animals. If they
don't hurt the goats now they won't when they are fed raw, even if
their diet is primarily goat.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Carol Dunster <cedunster@...> wrote:
>
> I was talking with a friend about feeding raw and he said that he
> wouldn't be comfortable doing that because he has two 95 lb dogs and
> livestock. He said that he couldn't be sure that, having been eating
> raw meat, they wouldn't go for his livestock - esp. if one of them
> were bleeding. What is everyone's experience on that?

Messages in this topic (8)
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3a. Re: Ground beef
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 11:36 am ((PDT))

I was under the impression it could be fed but not as the main diet.
I use beef patties (mini) for treats & beef balls for pills.
Trina

On 10/4/07, Carol Dunster <cedunster@centurytel.net> wrote:
>
> I was wondering what the take was on using a quality low fat ground
> beef at times would be? I've been holding back on switching the dogs,
> because I just won't be anywhere to buy meat now for weeks, but I do
> have a few things and a lot of ground beef I could easily share with
> the dogs. I'll be buying a quarter of a beef again the first of next
> month that I can share with them anyway.
> ~ Carol
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (21)
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3b. Re: Ground beef
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 11:36 am ((PDT))

I once ordered whole rabbits from our buying group and accidentally got
ground rabbit. When I fed it to my dog it was gone in an instant, so I
knew it wouldn't turn out well. He moped around for a while afterwards
and eventually vomited up the mass on my brand new throw rug. Now I
either use ground meat to stuff into chicken cavities or I feed a chunk
frozen. I'm sure lots of dogs politely eat ground foods on the rare
occasion they are offered, but mine don't fall into that category.

I'm not sure how newbie dogs would do with ground only without bone,
I'm thinking some pretty sloppy poo. . .Any possibility you can get
some chicken frames to add in there?

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Carol Dunster <cedunster@...> wrote:
>
> I was wondering what the take was on using a quality low fat ground
> beef at times would be? I've been holding back on switching the dogs,
> because I just won't be anywhere to buy meat now for weeks, but I do
> have a few things and a lot of ground beef I could easily share with
> the dogs. I'll be buying a quarter of a beef again the first of next
> month that I can share with them anyway.

Messages in this topic (21)
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3c. Re: Ground beef
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 12:25 pm ((PDT))

"T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:
>
> I was under the impression it could be fed but not as the main diet.
> I use beef patties (mini) for treats & beef balls for pills.
*****
Using it up is better than having it go to waste; and feeding raw
ground meat as a make-do til the "real stuff" arrives is better than
postponing a raw diet til the "real stuff" arrives. Just as a diet
solely of chicken is doable in the short haul, so is ground meat.
Neither I'd want to commit to full time, but we're not talking full
time.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (21)
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3d. Re: Ground beef
Posted by: "Carol Dunster" cedunster@centurytel.net carwynst
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 12:31 pm ((PDT))

On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 17:47:25 -0000, you wrote:

>I'm not sure how newbie dogs would do with ground only without bone,
>I'm thinking some pretty sloppy poo. . .Any possibility you can get
>some chicken frames to add in there?

I'm sure I could, but I'll have to hold off changing diet until we
shop again the end of the month is all. :)

~ Carol
_____________
Carol Dunster
cedunster@centurytel.net

Messages in this topic (21)
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3e. Re: Ground beef
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 1:06 pm ((PDT))

Well, then, it's worth a try, right? Sloppy poos aren't the end of the
world. Like Chris said, it's better than having to hold off for a
couple of weeks. Let us know how it goes.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Carol Dunster <cedunster@...> wrote:

> I'm sure I could, but I'll have to hold off changing diet until we
> shop again the end of the month is all. :)

Messages in this topic (21)
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4a. Re: Puppy Scare
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 11:36 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "janandshelby" <janandshelby@...>
wrote:
>
> Then, on vacation (away from the list and our homeopath,) she
> (at five
> months old) CHOWED down a chicken thigh. Results were both
> poop and vomit. I wasn't
> particularly concerned; however, in the morning, she refused
> both water and food, and
> was obviously NOT WELL. My first fear was dehydration.

You shouldn't be so dependent on a homeopath or vet or anoyone else
when it comes to feeding your dogs. You have been feeding raw for 4
years now. You shouldn't panic at every hickup. She refused food
and water because she still had stuff in her tummy from the previous
meal. That happens from time to time.

> Took her to vet who
> was on site at the dog show we were attending, and, with
> excellent care, including
> immediate hydration, x-rays, etc., we discovered that she
> had several pieces of VERY
> SHARP bone shards in her tummy.

I'm not so impressed with the vet care. I don't think she had VERY
SHART bone shards in her tummy. These things are not as sharp as
they sometimes appear. If it had been left another few hours, I'm
sure the whole thing would have been digested and nothing else would
have been necessary.

> I have to assume this was "operator error"; i.e., I should
> have been doing
> something other than what I was doing.

Don't assume any kind of error. Just assume it's something that
happens from time to time. My Abby has swallowed chicken drumsticks
whole more than once. There was no adverse effects. I will admit
that my Abby is considerably larger than your little one. :)
However, it's the same principle.

> (She previously handled chicken thighs with
> ease).

I am sure if she had been given the opporntunity, she would have
handled this one also.

> I'm using a meat
> tenderizer to pound the heck out of the bones I'm giving
> her now.)

It's just because she gave you a scare. There is really no reason
to other than that. You should feed her some larger pieces in the
future so she can't swallow the whole thing.

> This veterinarian was supportive (and well educated) of
> raw feeding, but I remain both
> confused and surprised that a thigh bone was troublesome for
> a five month old terrier( approximately 6 lbs).

It wouldn't have been if enough time had been allowed for the
digestive process to have completed naturally.

> I have to say that watching her remarkable improvement
> with special wet diet for GI tract
> for two weeks, then a slow re- introduction of raw, had
> me questioning my decision to
> feed raw, and am extremely anxious now about how she should
> be fed.

I don't think any special diet was necessary. She would have eaten
again when the previous meal had been digested. Just feed larger
parts from here on out. It was just one of those scary things that
isn't nearly as dangerous as it first appears.

> I
> thank God for the care she
> received, as I feel this situation was potentially
> life threatening.

I don't feel it was anywhere near life threatening and would have
resolved itself on its own if given the opportunity.

> I'm hearing a lot of "I told you so"s from friends and family
> that I've tried to convert to raw,
> believe me.

Only because you made such a big deal out of it.

> Guess I'm needing both reassurance and further advice. I've
> lost my
> confidence, and can't stand thinking I could be doing harm to
> my beloved pets.

You shouldn't loose your confidence because of one little bump in
the road. You are doing the right thing by feeding your dogs like
you do. Your only mistake was to panic when something unexpected
happened.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (6)
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4b. Re: Puppy Scare
Posted by: "PK Shader" Forloveofdogs@gmail.com forloveofdogs
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 11:36 am ((PDT))

First Jan, let me say I am glad all ended well. Weren't you lucky to
find an enlightened vet in your time of crisis? I guess the Universe
is watching over you pretty carefully.

A few years back I was having dinner with my mother who was 68 at the
time and very lively and strong. She still did all her own gardening,
snow shoveling, cabinate refinishing, etc and had all her own , strong
teeth a fact of which she was very proud. Anyway it was just my mom
and me having a lovely steak dinner.

All of the sudden my mom went pale and made the most peculiar face.
She clasped at her throat and I realized she was choking. As the
color drained from her face I jumped up and implemented the Heimlich
maneuver and out flew an ungodly large piece of steak.

I was stunned for more reasons than just the fact that my mom was
choking (yep the very same mom who used to tell us to chew our food
carefully). I asked her what on earth possessed her to try to swallow
such a large, unchewed piece of steak? Now mind you my mom has been
eating steak all of her life.

She just flushed a lovely shade of red, shrugged her shoulders and
lifted her hands in a "Beats the Heck out of Me" gesture. She then
returned to enjoy the remainder of her steak dinner, this time cutting
smaller pieces and chewing each a little more thoroughly.

So here is my point. Stuff Happens. Even to the best and most
experienced of us. If you have a bad experience with a food or a
flower or a color do you then avoid all of them for the rest of your
life?? No of course not. You just say "Hmmm, that was a lesson" and
take from it what you need to improve what you are doing and discard
the rest.

Those other "nay sayers" may just want to feel better about giving
their dogs less so don't fall for it. Just look into the sparkling,
healthy, robust eyes of the dogs who have been enjoying their
"intended" diet and let that be your guide.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/SATZ_Main/

Two Sided Communication, Cooperation, Respect

Messages in this topic (6)
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4c. Re: Puppy Scare
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 11:50 am ((PDT))

"janandshelby" <janandshelby@...> wrote:
we discovered that she had several pieces of VERY
> SHARP bone shards in her tummy.
*****
Well, yeah. That's how the are before they are digested.

(By the way, contrary to what I've read on the list(s), I'm using a
meat
> tenderizer to pound the heck out of the bones I'm giving her now.)
*****
A potential problem with this method is you are simply dumping bone
into her. Which means you may well be giving her more bone than she
would eat on her own, and more bone than she needs. I would stop
that and just feed larger body parts.

I feel this situation was potentially life threatening.
*****
Life is potentially life threatening. I don't see this event as
potentially life threatening, myself. I see it as overreacting
supported by allopathic mindset.

Having had a dog in almost exactly the same situation I can say with
some confidence that bones in the stomach mean little more than bones
in the stomach. Fortunately for my dog I had more on-the-job-
training and my vet was not freaked out by bones in the belly. I do
believe if I had been freaked out she would have responded with a
correspondingly greater sense of urgency.

Since a person's got to do what a person's got to do, make your
choices and decsisons based on your tolerances. I think the "I told
you so"s of the world should not make the decision for you; if you
are convinced a species appropriate diet is the best for your dogs'
health, then feed a species appropriate raw diet. If you have to
adjust, adjust. If you cannot in accord with your own conscience
continue feeding whole raw, don't.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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5a. Re: Newbie here with a question
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 11:37 am ((PDT))

If carcasses mean mostly bone you'll need to add some meat. If you
mean whole chickens and turkeys that is ok. Big cuts from the grocery
store work well, too so don't forget about human cuts. Your list looks
too lean on meat, though. Since the first few weeks should be as easy
as whole chickens cut up you have some time to look for more sources.
You should probably avoid heart and organ at first and then add them
slowly.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jennifer_hell" <jenniferhell@...>
wrote:

> Chicken:
> carcasses, heart, stomach, liver
> Turkey:
> carcasses, necks
> Lamb:
> heart, liver, lungs, part of the stomach,ribs, spine.

Messages in this topic (4)
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5b. Re: Newbie here with a question
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 12:27 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Andrea" <poketmouse45@...> wrote:
>
> If carcasses mean mostly bone you'll need to add some meat. If you
> mean whole chickens and turkeys that is ok.
>snip<
> You should probably avoid heart and organ at first and then add them
> slowly.

They're not whole chicken and turkeys,I don't know how much meat is
left on them until I get them. Carcasses are what is left after the
meat for human consumption is removed.
I thought heart is muscle meat? Would that be bad to add in the beginning?

Jennifer with Mandy

Messages in this topic (4)
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6a. A good raw-inspired chew?
Posted by: "Kathie Middlemiss" geekgirl717@gmail.com katjermid
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 11:53 am ((PDT))

I want to apologize in advance if this is considered off-topic.

I have two young pups who seem to be just entering the chew everything I
can get my grubby paws on stage.

What I would like is some recommendations to some good healthy chew
things that I can leave around the house to hand off to them when they
start in on something they shouldn't. (I am using correction, but I
want to be able to hand them the 'appropriate' chewy thingy).

Because these would be laying around the house true 'raw' wouldn't be
sanitary, so I was wondering if anyone here has any thoughts. Also if
there is something you have used in the past, if you have a specific
place you have gotten them from, I would LOVE, LOVE, LOVE that
information too.

Thanks in advance!

Kathie, Mom to:
Jake, Max and Ruby - 3 weeks on raw and doing great!

Messages in this topic (2)
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6b. Re: A good raw-inspired chew?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 12:26 pm ((PDT))

IME, if you give pups big complicated food daily and some good ol' raw
chewing fun here and there the desire to chew throughout the day goes
away. I used pork feet for Geiger and Tycho when they started teething
as extra chewing fun. I've heard that antlers are good if you can get
them.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Kathie Middlemiss <geekgirl717@...>
wrote:

> I have two young pups who seem to be just entering the chew
> everything I can get my grubby paws on stage.

Messages in this topic (2)
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7a. Re: Wolf goes fishing for salmon
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 12:05 pm ((PDT))

"basilbourque" <wildbasil@...> wrote:
> So what's the deal about Pacific salmon being dangerous to dogs
when fed raw?
*****
The deal is the rickettsia parasite that may be carried by a fluke
that lives in salmonids in the PNW. The area of concern is from
southern Alaska south to the mid-California coast, and east to the
Cascades.

Katmai is southwest of Anchorage; it would interesting to ask the
park wildlife experts about the presence of the parasite.

Certainly not all salmonids are carriers; the disease is generally
fatal to canines but I imagine dosage matters. Some people feed PNW
salmon fresh, others freeze it, others choose not to feed it at all.

Unless the author chose not to reveal the subsequent death of the
wolf, I'd say this supports the notion that PNW salmon is not an
unequivocal death warrant for our dogs.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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8.1. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
Posted by: "Gail Edmond" windybond1@yahoo.co.uk windybond1
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 12:27 pm ((PDT))

Cant remember if i replied to this last night as there are so many emails and i have had a bad two days keep getting massive muscle spasms in the middle of my back probably to much time sat at my laptop reading them, but they have both just turned one and they are shih tzus..

Gail

----- Original Message ----
From: tottime47 tottime@aol.com
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 3 October, 2007 11:22:06 PM
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner

Hi Gail,

You don't, that's what the site is for, to help.

We've all been there, lol. I've only been feeding since Feb so I'm
pretty new too!

Beef is pretty fatty for their first meals.

What you want to do is get some chicken, best to get a whole chicken
if you can and cut it up yourself.

Offer them a piece bigger than their muzzle area, so they can't
swallow it whole. If they won't eat it, try some of the other
suggestions to make it more appealing to them.

How big are your dogs and how old are they?

I'm sure others will be chiming in here to help you too!
Just hang in there and welcome to the wild side, lol.........

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogro ups.com, Gail Edmond <windybond1@ ...> wrote:
>
> Sorry to sound so ignorant on this but am i doing wrong got a bag
of bits from the butchers mostly beef with lots of fat so it looked
yuk to me so boiled slowly for a couple of hours to get rid of the
fat whats left was loads of good looking beef to me but still down on
the kitchen floor untouched.
>
> Trying to learn what is best. They are so skinny though and i
worry about my two babies.
>
> Gail

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Messages in this topic (36)
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8.2. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
Posted by: "Gail Edmond" windybond1@yahoo.co.uk windybond1
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 12:28 pm ((PDT))

thanks for the reply i think you are probably right it is me at fault.

Gail

----- Original Message ----
From: katkellm <katkellm@yahoo.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 4 October, 2007 12:34:04 AM
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogro ups.com, Gail Edmond <windybond1@ ...> wrote:
> They have consumed the breast and bone of chicken and i think good
everything is ok then the next meal they wont touch it, they have not
eaten for three days now and am really worried.

Hi Gail,
If they have eaten chicken breasts and all went well then i think we
can assume that they like chicken. I think that you are confusing the
dogs by offering cooked stuff and then raw stuff and then picking up
what they don't eat and offering them something else. I think that
maybe you should make a feeding plan and stick with it. Provided that
your dogs are healthy, i would make sure that you are not feeding them
more than 2% of their ideal body weight. I would put down the chicken
breast and give them 10ish minutes to decide if they want to eat and
if not pick it up and put it back in the fridge for later. This will
be the way hard part, but while they are sizing up the chicken and
what to do with it, please don't fuss over them or try to coax them to
eat or hover around. Stay in the room with them but act unconcerned
about what they choose to do. Dogs are very adept at reading us, so
don't fret over feeding time. When you take control of the feeding
schedule and not your dogs, i think they'll eat happily. KathyM

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Messages in this topic (36)
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8.3. Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner
Posted by: "Gail Edmond" windybond1@yahoo.co.uk windybond1
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 1:06 pm ((PDT))

Thanks i didnt realise you meant this thought you meant trim the reply even though i thought it was trim enough. How stupid you must think but i am sure there are other newbies to groups who dont realise this.

Gail.

Ps i have trimmed i think

----- Original Message ----
From: costrowski75 <Chriso75@AOL.COM>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 4 October, 2007 4:49:21 AM
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: raw feeding advice for a beginner

, Gail Edmond <windybond1@ ...> wrote:
>
> Sorry but what do you mean as trim.
*****
Trim as in cut out--delete, remove--material from the old post

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Messages in this topic (36)
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9a. Re: PLEASE HELP- how much to feed?
Posted by: "Gail Edmond" windybond1@yahoo.co.uk windybond1
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 12:32 pm ((PDT))

Hi its nice to know that you realise that some of us are complete beginners and trying our hardest for our dogs to do the best for them but are quite ignorant and your help is greatly appreciated. Thanks again.

Gail

----- Original Message ----
From: katkellm <katkellm@yahoo.com>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 4 October, 2007 2:49:00 AM
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: PLEASE HELP- how much to feed?

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogro ups.com, "kwrestad" <kwrestad@.. .> wrote:
> Their diet consists of the following (rotated at random; 1 of these
> at a time): How many should they be fed per meal?

Hi,
My advice would be to think in terms of the weight of the piecs and
not how many pieces. Since both of your dogs are 55lbs. feeding them
2-3% of their body weight means that you should be feeding around a
pound and a half a day per dog. This amount can be upped or downed as
needed based on how your dogs look to you. My 55lb lab porks out if
she eats more than a pound a day, so just adjust the amount as you go.
I know that you didn't ask, but i would like to ask you to maybe
rethink some of your feeding choices. You are feeding a lot of bone in
comparison to the amount of meat. While this might be a good thing
for a newbie dog, overtime chicken pieces and turkey necks are just
not enough meat. Could you maybe include a hunk of beef heart or pork
roast or any kind of boneless meat with the meal? Also, don't forget
that organs need to be a part in the diet-the chorus here is 80% meat,
10% bone, 5% organ meat and 5% liver. I think that it is great that
you are feeding raw because i know it can be hard to swim upstream in
a kibble world. KathyM

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Messages in this topic (8)
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10. Grizzly bear meat ok???
Posted by: "sfed57" sfed57@yahoo.ca sfed57
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 12:33 pm ((PDT))

Just started my two girls on the raw diet, 3 days now on chicken and
all is going great! They absolutly LOVE it and no problems to speak of!

My question is this, I know a coulple who will be going hunting for
grizzly bear and they dont want ANY of the meat. I am 100% certain
that a wolf would quite happily go to town on a dead grizzly so it
should be ok for the dogs but I havent heard any word of bear meat at
all in any of the posts. Has any one had experience with feeding bear
meat? And what of the size of the bones, could they be "wreck" bones
or should they be ok? They are Siberians, one is full grown (50lbs)
and the other a puppy (20lbs).

Any advice would be appreciated, and thanks in advance!

Shawna

Messages in this topic (1)
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11a. Re: Feeding Toy breeds
Posted by: "Gail Edmond" windybond1@yahoo.co.uk windybond1
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 1:04 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

Just a query but are most of the people on this site from America or are there any from Great Britain, just curious no reason behind this except from were abouts they are getting the food from and is there any where here in UK that supply good quality food.

Gail

----- Original Message ----
From: costrowski75 <Chriso75@AOL.COM>
To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 4 October, 2007 4:36:59 AM
Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: Feeding Toy breeds

Gail Edmond <windybond1@ ...> wrote:
>
> Necks are supposed to be great tooth brushes
*****
Any bone that requires effort is a great tooth brush. Any meaty bone
is an even better tooth brush. Any meaty bone that gives the dog the
opportunity to literally sink its teeth into the meat is not only a
great tooth brush but also fine dental floss and a gum massage to boot.

Even for toy breeds there is a variety of meaty bones to choose from.
Chris O

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Messages in this topic (8)
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12a. Re: Salmon oil and other questions - Now entropion and freezers
Posted by: "lauraanimal1" lauraanimal1@yahoo.com lauraanimal1
Date: Thu Oct 4, 2007 1:07 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Giselle" <megan.giselle@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi, Laura!
> Its possible for entropion to recur.
> http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1463-
5224.2007.00482.x?cookieSet=1
> http://tinyurl.com/2ywv2t
>
> Are these the symptoms and behaviors he had originally when he had
> entropion, before the surgery?

Yes and no, before the surgery and before the 1st time on raw she
didnt have any signs, then 2nd day into it, yes she started it,
including the head shaking. When she came off the raw before the
surgery, it stopped considerbly, to "almost" nothing and no more head
shaking. Then a couple months later had the surgery cause I wanted to
get it over and done with. No problems after. Then now starting raw
again, same thing, 2 days in and eyes watering and head shaking.

When I take her to the vet I will have him check and see if it has
come back, the only thing that bother me is that this"is" a patern
where the raw is concerned, I can believe it being timing the 1st
ime, but the exact same way , same timing and everything a 2nd time???

>
> Have you considered checking out your local craigslist or FreeCycle
to
> get more freezers to hold all the great stuff you're offered?
> Often, you can find them for cheap or for free.
> http://sfbay.craigslist.org/

>
> http://www.freecycle.org/

>
> TC
> Giselle
>
>

yes I have posted there now a couple of times, Craigeslist, doesnt
have much in this sparsley populated state and They even have a
community "cafe" yahho group where they can sell things or looking to
buy, nothing therre yet either!!!!!

Thanks for all the info, this place is great, I never thought about
entropion reaccuring.

Laura and Ishta

Messages in this topic (7)
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