Feed Pets Raw Food

Monday, July 2, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11754

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Shots N Vaccines
From: ginny wilken

2a. ADMIN/Re: Shots N Vaccines
From: costrowski75

3a. Re: Questioning and need reassurance
From: Casey Post
3b. Re: Questioning and need reassurance
From: woofwoofgrrl
3c. Re: Questioning and need reassurance
From: Casey Post
3d. Re: Questioning and need reassurance
From: J

4a. Re: PROBLEMS WITH GROUND EGGSHELLS, ANYONE?
From: Casey Post

5a. So far so good, but have a couple of questions
From: Linda Edgington
5b. Re: So far so good, but have a couple of questions
From: Giselle

6a. Re: Bitten while taking a bone away
From: Danielle O'Connor
6b. Re: Bitten while taking a bone away
From: Giselle
6c. Re: Bitten while taking a bone away
From: Joseph

7a. Re: Ground beef
From: geraldinebutterfield

8a. GSD first time raw feeding
From: Star
8b. Re: GSD first time raw feeding
From: Giselle
8c. Re: GSD first time raw feeding
From: Star

9. Buying a full cow!
From: borodeauxs

10a. Re: expiration dates
From: chele519
10b. Re: expiration dates
From: pelirojita
10c. Re: expiration dates
From: costrowski75

11a. Re: Veal breast
From: Bearhair

12a. Re: Identifying edible bones versus "tooth-wreckers"
From: wenigj

13a. Re: WOW thanks for all the great help...
From: Catherine

14. Eggs gave bad gas..
From: blueberry5297

15. Pigs Feet left overs?
From: mz_boomer2


Messages
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1a. Re: Shots N Vaccines
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 5:42 pm ((PDT))


On Jul 2, 2007, at 11:44 AM, Val Kilmer wrote:

> I have a 15 week old Bull Terrier pup that's ben on RAW from week 6 &
> hes doing wonderfull. He eats anything i put infront of him & he
> loves
> every bit of it.
> My question to the group is my Vet has ben giving him shots
> every 3
> weeks. We were just in for our 15 week shots & made a appointment for
> out 18 week shots.
> #1 are all these shots necessary? If not, what ones can i
> eliminate from giving him.
> #2 he gave me heartworm pills (u know the ones u put the
> sticker on
> the calander & u give him once a month) Are theses necessary?
> Thanks, Derek @ Chicago


She's right, Val; none of any of them. And if you'll join us at
RawChat we can tell you why and get you some good info.


ginny and Tomo


All stunts performed without a net!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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2a. ADMIN/Re: Shots N Vaccines
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 5:47 pm ((PDT))

Good questions but they should be resubmitted to RawChat. The
rawfeeding list is for feeding raw and vaccines, although volatile
issues indeed in natural rearing, are not about feeding raw. Please
post all vaccine discussion to RawChat.
Thanks.
Chris O
Mod Team

Messages in this topic (4)
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3a. Re: Questioning and need reassurance
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 5:54 pm ((PDT))

> Since Courtney (12yo BC) has come down with issues with her kidneys,
> I've been questioning my switch to raw.

Christine,

Forgive me...it's a busy list and I cannot recall - what exactly is the
diagnosis, here?


>However, she had blood
> work done in April, coincidentally right before the switch, and there
> were no kidney indicators at that time. So I'm concerned that switching
> her to raw was the wrong thing to do!

Raw is absolutely the very best thing for the carnivore's kidneys
(particularly if their function is compromised), so whatever is going on
with your girl, staying with a commercial diet would not have been a good
thing.

>> Is the timing just coincidental? Did the diet exacerbate a latent
> problem? <sigh> I need reassurance and data.

Help us help you. What is her diagnosis? What are you feeding her? What
were you feeding her before the switch?

Casey

Messages in this topic (5)
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3b. Re: Questioning and need reassurance
Posted by: "woofwoofgrrl" cmc4lists1@gastrounit.com woofwoofgrrl
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 6:47 pm ((PDT))

Casey Post wrote:
>
>> Since Courtney (12yo BC) has come down with issues with her kidneys,
>> I've been questioning my switch to raw.
>
> Christine,
>
> Forgive me...it's a busy list and I cannot recall - what exactly is the
> diagnosis, here?

Busy list? Yeah maybe a bit! :) This all started a little over a week
ago when Courtney vomited and then refused to eat. She acted like she
was way out of sorts, so I took her to the vet the next day. Her
physical exam was fine, but her blood test revealed a high BUN and high
creatinine and high white blood cells and high phosphorus. Her
urinalysis showed that she's not concentrating her urine and there was
protein in it, with no signs of infection in the urine. So the
current diagnosis is kidney failure and not infection.

>> However, she had blood
>> work done in April, coincidentally right before the switch, and there
>> were no kidney indicators at that time. So I'm concerned that switching
>> her to raw was the wrong thing to do!
>
> Raw is absolutely the very best thing for the carnivore's kidneys
> (particularly if their function is compromised), so whatever is going on
> with your girl, staying with a commercial diet would not have been a good
> thing.
>
That's what I want to believe, but I'm having trouble now.

>
>
>>> Is the timing just coincidental? Did the diet exacerbate a latent
>> problem? <sigh> I need reassurance and data.
>
> Help us help you. What is her diagnosis? What are you feeding her? What
> were you feeding her before the switch?

The current diagnosis is kidney failure. There are more tests in the
works so that may change. Before she started showing signs of illness
we were in the process of working up to various protein sources - she
had successfully had chicken, turkey (which she loved), beef and pork.
She would typically get mostly meaty meat and less bone than the other
two, but she did get bone and has had some organs. She was getting about
2% of her body weight a day. We are probably a month to 6 weeks into
raw feeding. The younger dogs have had pretty much the same thing, but
with a little more bone than her, their percentages are 3% and 4% of
their body weights since they are more active and are whippets with a
higher metabolism.

Right now, since I've gotten her to the point where she wants to eat -
lots of tummy drugs involved in this - she's had mostly raw chicken
breast and some chuck roast and some raw egg. I'm still feeling my way
through the "reduce the phosphorus" part. I've also start supplementing
with COQ10, tums to balance out the phosphorus in each meal, and fish
oil. Then there are all the meds they have her on...

Before I switched to raw, she was on a 'high quality' kibble. When we
first got her 12 years ago we started with Pedigree and then I switched
to Iams and then I learned more about dog food and started being even
choosier. I would periodically swap foods just to keep it interesting -
Chicken Soup for the Dog Lovers Soul, Wellness, Merrick, Blue Buffalo...
She was on Blue Buffalo right before the switch to raw. So she wasn't
affected by the recall. Frightningly, Zinger one of my whippets, was on
Royal Canine before the switch to raw and some of their formulas were
involved in the recall! But he seems fine.

So that's the saga so far... any help or calming would would be great!

Thanks!
Christine

Messages in this topic (5)
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3c. Re: Questioning and need reassurance
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 8:09 pm ((PDT))


> She acted like she
> was way out of sorts, so I took her to the vet the next day. Her
> physical exam was fine, but her blood test revealed a high BUN and high
> creatinine and high white blood cells and high phosphorus. Her
> urinalysis showed that she's not concentrating her urine and there was
> protein in it, with no signs of infection in the urine. So the
> current diagnosis is kidney failure and not infection.

Well, Carrie is better at the hard medical stuff than I. At this dog's age,
there are a few possibilities and sure, renal failure is one of them. I'm
assuming there are no "prime suspects" involved like TBD, flea/tick meds,
vaccines, etc. given to her recently?


>
>>> However, she had blood
>>> work done in April, coincidentally right before the switch, and there
>>> were no kidney indicators at that time. So I'm concerned that switching
>>> her to raw was the wrong thing to do!

The crap deal is that the kidney indicators in standard blood work don't
show up until you've got about 75% kidney function lost, so if she was at
50% then, there may have been no hint of it at that time. Not saying that
this is what happened, just saying it's possible.

>> Raw is absolutely the very best thing for the carnivore's kidneys
>> (particularly if their function is compromised), so whatever is going on
>> with your girl, staying with a commercial diet would not have been a good
>> thing.
>>
> That's what I want to believe, but I'm having trouble now.

Hey, you do what you have to do for your emotional well-being. But you need
to know that YOU DID NOT CAUSE THIS. The older a dog gets, the more likely
something medical is going to come up, it's just statistically the way it
is. Does that suck? You bet it does. And I know that the timing really
has you wondering if the switch to raw was what did it and I think that's a
very normal response on your part. After all, you had A, you did B, and now
you've got C, so it's not unreasonable to figure that C is the result of B.

EXCEPT that feeding a carnivore a prey model diet doesn't cause renal
failure.

Honest. I've lost animals to renal failure, so I know how much that sucks
and if I had even a hint of doubt that I was currently risking the renal
health of my animals by feeding raw, I wouldn't do it.

> The current diagnosis is kidney failure. There are more tests in the
> works so that may change.

Good. More testing is good. Me, I'm a glutton for data. I know that
testing has limitations, but I like to know all I can know, anyway. Gives
me a sense of control over an uncontrollable situation, I guess.


> Right now, since I've gotten her to the point where she wants to eat -
> lots of tummy drugs involved in this - she's had mostly raw chicken
> breast and some chuck roast and some raw egg. I'm still feeling my way
> through the "reduce the phosphorus" part. I've also start supplementing
> with COQ10, tums to balance out the phosphorus in each meal, and fish
> oil. Then there are all the meds they have her on...

And fluids - is she on any fluids?


>I would periodically swap foods just to keep it interesting -
> Chicken Soup for the Dog Lovers Soul, Wellness, Merrick, Blue Buffalo...
> She was on Blue Buffalo right before the switch to raw. So she wasn't
> affected by the recall.

You'd be surprised how many foods weren't on the official recall that folks
reported as affecting their animals...but that's another story.


> So that's the saga so far... any help or calming would would be great!

Help - are you having problems, maybe getting her to eat? Have you tried
green tripe for her on her "off" days?

As for calming, I'm going to say it again so you know I mean it ... This is
NOT your fault. You did not do this to her by changing her diet. What you
did was saw a problem when she felt ill and acted on it fast. You are
learning and coping and handling a tough situation. You should congratulate
yourself on what you've done and what you continue to do day after day.
You're there for your dog. No regrets.

Casey

Messages in this topic (5)
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3d. Re: Questioning and need reassurance
Posted by: "J" jocelyn7777@hotmail.com croint7777
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 8:48 pm ((PDT))

This all started a little over a week
> ago when Courtney vomited and then refused to eat. She acted like
she
> was way out of sorts, so I took her to the vet the next day. Her
> physical exam was fine, but her blood test revealed a high BUN and
high
> creatinine and high white blood cells and high phosphorus. Her
> urinalysis showed that she's not concentrating her urine and there
was
> protein in it, with no signs of infection in the urine. So the
> current diagnosis is kidney failure and not infection.


I remember posting this before, but I think I forgot to sign my mail,
so it might not have made it through....Here are a few articles done by
a diagnostic testing center...


http://www.antechdiagnostics.com/clients/antechnews/2006/nov06_01.htm


http://www.antechdiagnostics.com/clients/antechnews/2003/jun03_02.htm

Hope this helps...

And, I don't know if your dog had eaten before the tests, but I've
heard you should fast your dogs before having one of these tests
done... (you said the dog wasn't eating, and was acting out of sorts,
but you don't say how long the dog went without eating, or how she was
acting out of sorts?) I had something similar happen with one of my
dogs, except he was urinating frequently (even in the house...) I took
him to the vet, and his levels came back a little off, and his urine
was very dilute (not concentrated)... with no signs of infection. The
vet ran blood tests because she was worried he had diabetes insipidus.
She gave us some antibiotics just in case... Well, after his first 2
doses of antibiotics, he didn't have anymore problems. I think he had
an infection (and the increased thirst, extra drinking, and the water
in his raw food- led to the dilute urine.... and it could be he was
doing it on purpose to keep the urine from burning if it was an
infection.) His levels came back fine (within the parameters of raw
fed dogs - I use a raw friendly vet.) Since then- he has been fine
with no problems.

Right now, I'd make sure your vet re-runs the tests, that the dog has
been fasting for 12 hours before the test... and, that the vets are
made aware of the differences in the test results for dogs that are raw
fed- per the articles above.

Good luck.

Jocelyn

Messages in this topic (5)
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4a. Re: PROBLEMS WITH GROUND EGGSHELLS, ANYONE?
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 5:56 pm ((PDT))

> Just fed first serving of finely ground eggshells with usual food and
> 11y Tabby threw up. B'bs wont eat bone so supplementing. Other cat did
> ok. Sensitivity for some cats to eggshells?

How finely ground? Like powder or little bits?


>
> Is crushing bone finely and mixing into food better solution? Purer
> form of calcium, correct?

"Purity" is not really the issue...whole bone is "the real thing" and egg
shell powder is a substitute, so it's inferior by definition. You may want
to try mashing bones really well and then mashing less and less over time -
not only will that get calcium and other minerals into them, but also will
help transition to whole, edible bones.

Some cats are tough...believe me, I know!

Casey


Messages in this topic (2)
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5a. So far so good, but have a couple of questions
Posted by: "Linda Edgington" lindagail849@yahoo.com lindagail849
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 6:02 pm ((PDT))

We made it thru the week end, I think it was more scary on my part then anything. Gizzy is doing well with the bigger cuts of meat, I found one thing that has to change tho. He was chewing much better this morning but I think I will have to feed him outside. I feed both the cat Sassy and dog at the same time. Sassy on the washer and Giz on th floor. Sassy looks at her's and decides she wants Gizzy's first. That is what made him eat faster this noon, and he couldn't get it down so up chucked it. Now my biggest fear is up chucking and dirreah (sp). I have a weak stomach and this is hard for me.But it came up a big chunck and he chewed it up, So far I am feeding chicken breast's, but I cut up a cornish hen yesterday. Messed it up pretty bad, not much for back that isn't attached to something else. My question is, can I give Giz like a leg quarter tonite? I haven't really been measuring, but 3 oz doesn't seem like much, and I'm not for sure how much he ate at noon.
Do I take the skin off? Will he eat more than he should? That is a dumb question, isn't it. And I don't think I am feeding Sass enough. But I will get into raw cat for that. Also, Giz hasn't had a poop today. Do I need to be worried?

Alos I wanted to say that I didn't think anyone was scarcastic or berating here. I am new to and I appreciate everything you guys have done for me, cause it it hadn't been for you I would have started "this journey".

Linda


---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (2)
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5b. Re: So far so good, but have a couple of questions
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 7:05 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Linda!
Ah, refresh our memory; what size and age is Giz?
And I'm a little confused, you are feeding only cornish hen parts to
both the dog and cat, or are feeding the cornish hen parts to the cat
and the chicken parts to the dog?
You can feed the cat first, then the dog in the usual area, or vice
versa. Just keep one in the feeding area at a time, and block the
other out. Or, you could feed the cat in a crate or ex-pen and the dog
free, or vice versa.
Dogs *can* eat too much, and gain too much weight. I'd recommend you
keep an eye on her 'waist' and tummy 'tuck up', and feel her ribs and
back and hip bones regularly. Too fluffy? Cut back. Too lean? feed more.
When your dog horks food up, you can just let her eat it again. No
clean up on your part.
The only reason to trim skin or fat from meat is if the dog is having
problems with diarrhea or vomiting. You gradually trim less and less
until they can tolerate it as is.
Since the raw diet is entirely appropriate and extremely digestible,
your dog will have greatly reduced poop volume. She will poop less,
and may even skip days between eliminations. NP.
Thanks for the kind words. We do have our own unique ways of
expressing ourselves.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> We made it thru the week end, I think it was more scary on my part
then anything. Gizzy is doing well with the bigger cuts of meat, I
found one thing that has to change tho. He was chewing much better
this morning but I think I will have to feed him outside. I feed both
the cat Sassy and dog at the same time. Sassy on the washer and Giz
on the floor. Sassy looks at hers and decides she wants Gizzy's
first. That is what made him eat faster this noon, and he couldn't
get it down so up chucked it. Now my biggest fear is up chucking and
diarrhea (sp). I have a weak stomach and this is hard for me.But it
came up a big chunk and he chewed it up, So far I am feeding chicken
breast's, but I cut up a cornish hen yesterday. Messed it up pretty
bad, not much for back that isn't attached to something else. My
question is, can I give Giz like a leg quarter tonite? I haven't
really been measuring, but 3 oz doesn't seem like much, and I'm not
for sure how much he ate at noon.
> Do I take the skin off? Will he eat more than he should? That is
a dumb question, isn't it. And I don't think I am feeding Sass
enough. But I will get into raw cat for that. Also, Giz hasn't had a
poop today. Do I need to be worried?
>
> Also I wanted to say that I didn't think anyone was sarcastic or
berating here. I am new to and I appreciate everything you guys have
done for me, cause it it hadn't been for you I would have started
"this journey".
>
> Linda


Messages in this topic (2)
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6a. Re: Bitten while taking a bone away
Posted by: "Danielle O'Connor" zar48690@yahoo.com zar48690
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 6:02 pm ((PDT))

hmmm thats a good question..i would crush her bone,,but i dont think she ment to bite u im sure she was trying to get it out of her mouth 2..danielle o'connor

stacey7881 <staceydippong@gmail.com> wrote: Hi everyone,

I have a 4 month old Shih Tzu puppy and I have been feeding her raw for
about a month now - she loves it and is doing great. Most of the time
she gets raw chicken with the bones.

She was eating part of a chicken thigh with the bone attached today,
and was having a really hard time crunching the bone - it was actually
caught (wedged on) on her upper teeth. I tried to get it out of her
mouth and she bite my thumb through the nail and well into my thumb
below...very unexpected and quite painful.

My question is - is this something that I should be worried about? I
don't think it was intentional at all but it makes me nervous in the
future - should I start crushing her bones for her?

Thanks,

Stacey




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Messages in this topic (4)
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6b. Re: Bitten while taking a bone away
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 7:12 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Stacey!
Even well trained dogs can bite when they are frightened, like your
pup was when the bone was wedged.
I wouldn't crush her bones. Chances are, you may be "crowding" her a
bit, being new to raw and still nervous. She may be feeling anxious
that you might try to take it from her and be trying to eat too quickly.
Email me off list or post this on raw chat, and I can tell you about
an easy to do training plan to teach her to trade items happily with you.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Hi everyone,
>
> I have a 4 month old Shih Tzu puppy and I have been feeding her raw for
> about a month now - she loves it and is doing great. Most of the time
> she gets raw chicken with the bones.
>
> She was eating part of a chicken thigh with the bone attached today,
> and was having a really hard time crunching the bone - it was actually
> caught (wedged on) on her upper teeth. I tried to get it out of her
> mouth and she bite my thumb through the nail and well into my thumb
> below...very unexpected and quite painful.
>
> My question is - is this something that I should be worried about? I
> don't think it was intentional at all but it makes me nervous in the
> future - should I start crushing her bones for her?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Stacey
>


Messages in this topic (4)
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6c. Re: Bitten while taking a bone away
Posted by: "Joseph" scarfinger68@yahoo.com scarfinger68
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 8:01 pm ((PDT))

Ouch!. Sounds like a nasty..accidental bite considering she may of
been in a bit of distress if the bone was lodge in her teeth.

My dog accidently bit my finger once when i was new at RAW feeding and
I would hold the meat and bone so she could pull the meat off. She
regripped the RAW meat and got my finger a little.

My dog has been trained in bite inhibition and releases with the
command "give" and never growls or seems anxious when i take her food
and examine it.

Thats why I am saying my dog bitting me was an accidentle nipping of my
finger and hopefully... your was too.

Joe Stokes, Toledo

Messages in this topic (4)
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7a. Re: Ground beef
Posted by: "geraldinebutterfield" gbutterflied@comcast.net geraldinebutterfield
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 6:04 pm ((PDT))

I never thought to fill her Kong with meat and freeze it. Great idea.
When roasts are on a great sale I'll have the butcher grind one up for
her.

geraldine
> >
> > >
> > > May I ask, "What is Kong"?
> > > Thanks,
> > > Jeannine
> > >
> >
> Thank you so much, Michelle!
> I may get one for Daisy.
> Jeannine
>


Messages in this topic (15)
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8a. GSD first time raw feeding
Posted by: "Star" akjstarh@yahoo.com akjstarh
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 6:04 pm ((PDT))

Hi,

The Shelties are doing great!!! My brother wants to start feeding the family GSD this way,
he weighs about 120 a huge dog. What would be appropriate size bones for him that is
economical? Turkey necks....???

If someone could take th moment to reply I would really appreciate it, the movers come in
a few days and I am swamped and he doesn't have internet access right now...............

Thank you!
Star

Messages in this topic (3)
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8b. Re: GSD first time raw feeding
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 7:16 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Star!
Don't think bones, think meat with a bone in it.
Half or whole chickens, or turkey quarters would be appropriate for a
120lb dog, unless he is overweight.
Unless and until the dog becomes a careful chewer and experienced raw
eater, I wouldn't feed turkey or chicken neck, unless attached to the
bird.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Hi,
>
> The Shelties are doing great!!! My brother wants to start feeding
the family GSD this way,
> he weighs about 120 a huge dog. What would be appropriate size bones
for him that is
> economical? Turkey necks....???
>
> If someone could take th moment to reply I would really appreciate
it, the movers come in
> a few days and I am swamped and he doesn't have internet access
right now...............
>
> Thank you!
> Star
>


Messages in this topic (3)
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8c. Re: GSD first time raw feeding
Posted by: "Star" akjstarh@yahoo.com akjstarh
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 8:46 pm ((PDT))

***EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***


Thanks Giselle!

I am sorry I dodn't fully clarify...oops....in focus on bones I was thinking choking hazards.
The no neck unless attached things makes much sense. So the quarter turkey or half
chicken would be from a slaughterhouse with all parts attached but defeathered, or would
it be like you see packs of cut up whole chicken with giblets 'inside'. This entire meat thing
confuses me- any my brotehr was also raised vegeterian....

What exactly would he ask the slaughter house for, or the supermarket butcher?

Sorry to be so dense!
Star


Messages in this topic (3)
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9. Buying a full cow!
Posted by: "borodeauxs" Borodeauxs@googlemail.com borodeauxs
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 6:05 pm ((PDT))

Hi all wanting some information regarding cows,
I have found a slaughter house which will sell me a full cow for £80/
$160,..the cow will be chopped up into joints/steaks and what ever
else comes off cows,..I have sat and thought about the amount of meat
and other goodies I could have from this (including big racks of
ribs,heart,bones,stomarh linning/tripe,tounge,organs,)the list just
seems to go on,..I have a large chest freezer so storeage is no
problem,although I think I might be best going halfs with a friend,
what type of weight could I expect?I was thinking around 500lbs?
also would a cow supply all the dogs needs without other things in the
diet?...any thoughts on this will be greatly appreciated.
thanks in advance.

p.s...never got a price on sheep,but believe around £20/$40(would
sheep be a better buy?...as can be replaced with fresh animals,..were
as the cow will be frozen and take a while to use,..thanks Stephen.

Messages in this topic (1)
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10a. Re: expiration dates
Posted by: "chele519" chele519@yahoo.com chele519
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 6:09 pm ((PDT))

I just got a ton of old, freezer burned meat for free. 2 turkeys,
packages of ground beef, a couple roasts and a bunch of steaks. DOn't
worry about the expiration dates.
Michele

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> "Jessie" <O_snobunnie_O@> wrote:
> >
> > how do you guys feel about using meat close to, on or after its
> > expiration date?
> >
> > I already plan to feed what I bought and not worry about it, but I
> > don't plan on using only old meat... just didn't know if anyone
> > followed any guidelines on the dates?


Messages in this topic (6)
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10b. Re: expiration dates
Posted by: "pelirojita" kerrymurray7@gmail.com pelirojita
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 6:10 pm ((PDT))


> The words "special today" are near and dear to my heart and
> pocketbook. This approach to stocking up works really well after big
> turkey holidays (I found freerange turkeys for .29/lb!) and after big
> BBQ holidays as well. I think many of us have learned to cruise the
> meat department early in the morning or before closing or on blow-out
> days, looking for the deals.
>
Hi Chris O,

This newbie needs some more specifics - this Wednesday, 4th of July,
should be a big BBQ holiday. In your experience, would the best deals
be on the 4th or the morning of the 5th. I can't necessarily shop
both days due to childcare and work constraints or I would canvas the
stores for the kind of deals you mentioned.

Thanks,
Kerry

Messages in this topic (6)
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10c. Re: expiration dates
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 8:35 pm ((PDT))

"pelirojita" <kerrymurray7@...> wrote:
> This newbie needs some more specifics - this Wednesday, 4th of July,
> should be a big BBQ holiday. In your experience, would the best deals
> be on the 4th or the morning of the 5th.
*****
Stands to reason, don't it.
But I don't know for sure. Seems to me that the 4th of July holiday
starts the weekend before and ends the Sunday afterwards in
retailspeak. But it strikes me as reasonable to me to consider
trolling on the evening of the 4th. Heck, morning of July 5 doesn't
seem too shabby either. (Like to share some waffles with me?)

I think it depends on the store and the habits/traditions of your
neighborhood. For example, in Sacramento, ad prices are good Wednesday
through Tuesday; leftover ad product is often blown out on Wednesday
morning.

OTOH, the store in the center where "my" laundromat is seems to have
some sort of "special today" meat every morning; I've been able to snag
affordable lamb kidneys and shanks there.

Much as I'd like to be able to nail this down for you, you may have to
sort it out yourself. Fortunately not everything in the US has been
reduced to formula. Good luck!
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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11a. Re: Veal breast
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 6:09 pm ((PDT))

Kathy wrote:

>> Jagger has finally had a solid poop. Gave him some veal breast this
>> am and he has watery poop. I'm guessing this happens whenever you
>> intoduce something new. Do I continue to give it to him in hopes that
>> he will adjust?

Metra responded:

>I started Rusty on raw with veal breasts, and I remember they were
>really fatty and I was trimming out HUGE chunks of fat out of it
>(between the meat and bone, especially). Now I can feed them without
>trimming, unless it's an especially fatty piece and I'll trim it a
>little. I was surprised because I assumed that veal would be lean, but
>it's a fatty cut, which can lead to loose stools if your dog isn't used
>to it.

Agreed - I just fed veal breast and was astounded at the layer of fat between
the meat and bone. I yanked most of it out in order to avoid cannon butt
overnite. The bone was magnificent, though - soft with lots of cartilage
around it - perfect for my 8 toothed Collie (for those keeping score, over
the weekend, my vet spotted a molar hiding wayyyy in the back, which brings
his count to 8!).

Lean = less tender and juicy when cooked, so it actually makes sense that
veal would be loaded with fat - that's why "commercial" veal production
involves restricting movement of the calf.


Lora
Evanston, IL


Messages in this topic (3)
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12a. Re: Identifying edible bones versus "tooth-wreckers"
Posted by: "wenigj" wenigj@aol.com wenigj
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 6:10 pm ((PDT))

"Shoulders, ribs and anything else other than large leg bones from
cows, sheep or pigs are fine, right?"

I just got my first pork shoulder roast and when I opened it noticed
that there are some big bones inside the meat. They look like about
1/2 to and inch thick. I don't think they could be cut up (like
chicken bones) and I'm worried about giving them to my dogs who have
only had bones they could chew up (11mo and 13 yr old Goldens)
Will they figure this out and just pull the meat away from the bones,
or should I try to cut the meat off because I don't want them to break
their teeth? With the chicken and pork they've had, they have just
chomped everything, no pulling meat off at all. Advice is appreciated!
Thanks
Jill W.

Messages in this topic (4)
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13a. Re: WOW thanks for all the great help...
Posted by: "Catherine" eraser426@hotmail.com nihilumabesse
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 6:45 pm ((PDT))

Bumping in hopes of response.

Thank you all for your responses. I am sorry about my rudeness just
having a bad week and the comments at the dog park just about took the
cake for me. I've had at least 10 people tell me how thin she is in
the last couple weeks. Granted that those people's dogs are way fat. I
know she's thin but she is not emaciated. She's actually lost weight
in the last month and a half. She is a year and a half old. I put her
on the scale every couple weeks. I put her on yesterday and she was
down to 40lbs. She has been as heavy as 45 and that was when she first
came home to me in February. She was thin then. I can tell the
difference between a fat dog, a thin dog and those in proper weight. I
don't want her to be fat, I just don't know what to do when I see hip
bones and can feel her spine and ribs. To look at her it's difficult
to tell her weight because she's in a full continental clip and with
all the hair she looks fine. I appreciate all of your suggestions, and
I will try to add fattier foods. I don't ever remove skin or fat from
what she eats because I figure she needs all she can get. I've tried
giving her "other things" like yogurt, cottage cheese, etc... but all
she does is throw them up on my floor. She's got no health problems,
no parasites or worms. She acts like she always has happy, energetic
dog. She had a full blood panel when I got her in February. Everything
was normal including her thyroid. She does not shed hardly at all
being a poodle and if she did I would notice as she gets brushed
daily. Loose stools only occur with her when she eats something super
fatty or when she has her organs, which don't make up much of her
diet, she eats a pretty balanced 80/10/10. Again thank you for your
suggestions and I apologize for my rudeness, I'm concerned and she is
the first raw fed dog I've had.
One last question in this long long post... Her breeder was feeding
her pulped vegetables along with mostly chicken, tripe and ground
beef. She didn't feed much organ meat, if any and she fed very bony
meals from what she told me. I cut out all vegetables and added other
meats, organs, and a lot less bone when I brought her home. Would her
lack of proper feeding while growing have anything to do with trouble
putting on weight?

Thank you all again.

Catherine and Olivia

Messages in this topic (15)
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14. Eggs gave bad gas..
Posted by: "blueberry5297" blueberry5297@yahoo.com blueberry5297
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 8:47 pm ((PDT))

I gave Blue raw eggs twice and he loved them, though he didn't even
try to eat the shells. But both times, later in the day he had
horribly smelly gass... He stunk my step-dad out of the next room, and
it was even on a lower lever of the house! His gas never smells this
bad otherwise. Does this mean he shouldn't eat eggs, or is this just a
side effect?

- Jeni & Blue -

Messages in this topic (1)
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15. Pigs Feet left overs?
Posted by: "mz_boomer2" mz_boomer2@yahoo.com mz_boomer2
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 8:48 pm ((PDT))

Hi folks !

I hope this does not sound too lame, but since we are still new at
this, and you are my best recourse....

Last evening I got both of my labs 2 whole pig's feet. Both of my
labs are on the medium small size of 35-45 lb range and are both 2
years old. The pig's feet had been fully frozen at the carniceria
where we got them (and at a wonderful price I might add =D )...

Well I gave it to them later in the cooler evening hours, due to this
tremendous heat wave we have been having, and so these frozen goodies
were like iced treats for them! While the female takes wonderfully to
it, my boy just keeps guard over his ...LOL

My question is...since it was so late in the evening when they
started on the pig's feet...I acccidently fell asleep and when I woke
later in the morning, (like 9 hours later) there was still a good
left over on each one (more than half) that the pups exhausted
themselves over. So, I picked up the left overs, washed them, and put
them back into the freezer...can I still give the pigs feet again
after having been left out for so long and refrozen..????

Is it safe or is there too much of a bacteria risk ?

Ever in a quandery,

Pam and her too monkeys.. Christine & Halo =D

Messages in this topic (1)
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________________________________________________________________________

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11753

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: are the chickens at risk???
From: Jaimie Young

2a. Re: Advice re: softest bones?
From: Sam

3a. Shots N Vaccines
From: Val Kilmer
3b. Re: Shots N Vaccines
From: Michelle LaFay

4a. Re: Beef Heart
From: Tina Berry

5. pork heads - keep how long ? Smash ? Elk heads ?
From: Lisa S.

6a. Re: Feeding 6 month old pups
From: Kay

7. whole furry rabbit & quail with feathers on
From: Lisa S.

8a. Identifying edible bones versus "tooth-wreckers"
From: K Carolyn Ramamurti
8b. Re: Identifying edible bones versus "tooth-wreckers"
From: Laurie Swanson
8c. Re: Identifying edible bones versus "tooth-wreckers"
From: Karen Swanay

9. Michigan Suppliers
From: Compassion for Greyhounds

10a. Re: Veal breast
From: metra_co

11a. Feeding Raw
From: truthseeker448

12. PROBLEMS WITH GROUND EGGSHELLS, ANYONE?
From: alliecaracleo

13. Questioning and need reassurance
From: woofwoofgrrl

14a. Re: expiration dates
From: carnesbill
14b. Re: expiration dates
From: costrowski75

15. super gassy doggy
From: LaUrA

16. Bitten while taking a bone away
From: stacey7881

17a. Re: Shots & vaccines
From: carnesbill

18a. Re: Howdy!
From: costrowski75

19a. Re: different cuts of ribs - and lamb/goat cuts
From: costrowski75

20a. Re: sources?
From: costrowski75

21a. Re: Need Help. PLEASE
From: costrowski75


Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: are the chickens at risk???
Posted by: "Jaimie Young" jaimiey@gmail.com nadiachef06
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 1:32 pm ((PDT))

Well, it isn't chickens, but later the same night that we fed our
dogs a whole stillborn goat, we took them to our uncle's farm where
he keeps pygmie (sp?) goats. My dogs were scared of them, even the
babies, and when they finally showed a hesitant interest they wanted
to play with these "strange creatures." So no blood lust was
created there.

Jaimie
Shaman & Stella

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, carolyn arnold
<celebrationcookies@...> wrote:
>
> I just tallked with my friend who raises gsd in Minnesota. I have
been telling her about my raising my gsd on raw. She said (from one
who lives on an acreage) that once dogs get the taste of blood the
chickens on the acreage are history. What do you say about dogs
being fed raw then attacking other animals because they have then
the taste of blood??? Thanks, Carolyn
>


Messages in this topic (18)
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2a. Re: Advice re: softest bones?
Posted by: "Sam" smmastai@yahoo.com smmastai
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 1:33 pm ((PDT))

Thanks very much Chris. I won't be buying those bones from the pet store ever again,
shudder. I agree that they're the problem. Good to hear that all the other animals you
mentioned should be safe. And I will add meat to a ribs only meal, that's good to know.
Appreciate your advice, this site continues to be a great resource for me. I've been doing
raw now since my pup was 3 months old and I can't believe how much I've learned over the
past 7 months...I went from ki**le to BARF and now I think I'm getting the hang of the prey
model. Thanks again to everyone on the site for their continued dedication to educating
people on how to feed raw.

Sam

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> Samantha Morris <smmastai@> wrote:
> also tried lamb ribs this
> > weekend. I know the ribs contain a fair amount of
> > bone so I will try to get a meatier piece of the
> > animal next time.
> *****
> Just as one can include bony parts like chicken and turkey backs in a
> menu that is generous with its meat, lamb ribs can also be fed even
> though by themselves they are pretty bony. It's only if/when these
> bony body parts hijack the menu that they need to be restrained.
>
> So if feeding lamb ribs gives your dog a rip and tear opportunity (or
> at least the chance to puzzle out an approach), feed them. Adding
> meat to the meal is a fine way of defusing what might be--for the dog-
> -a too bony meal.
>
>
> > My question re. poultry legs was are they hard on the
> > teeth since they are weight bearing bones?
> *****
> No. Not unless you are feeding home grown birds that have been
> running around for some years. Commercial chickens die young.
>
>
> I have however fed buffalo necks and beef
> > necks which I bought frozen from a pet store that
> > carries raw.
> *****
> My vote goes unequivocally to those nasty bones the pet store sold
> you. A bone doesn't have to be edible to be dangerous. Please
> reconsider rec bones. Chicken legs are not the issue here.
>
> You should be able to feed chicken bones, most turkey bones, most
> lamb and goat bones, most pork bones, fish bones, some venison bones,
> rabbit bones, quail bones, duck bones, squirrel bones the bones of
> other small prey animals.
>
> Just stay away from bones from earthshakingly heavy critters. No
> bison, no beef, no horse, no elephant. Meat: fine. Bones: not fine.
> Chris O
>


Messages in this topic (8)
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3a. Shots N Vaccines
Posted by: "Val Kilmer" DPM333@aol.com dferris23
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 1:33 pm ((PDT))

I have a 15 week old Bull Terrier pup that's ben on RAW from week 6 &
hes doing wonderfull. He eats anything i put infront of him & he loves
every bit of it.
My question to the group is my Vet has ben giving him shots every 3
weeks. We were just in for our 15 week shots & made a appointment for
out 18 week shots.
#1 are all these shots necessary? If not, what ones can i
eliminate from giving him.
#2 he gave me heartworm pills (u know the ones u put the sticker on
the calander & u give him once a month) Are theses necessary?
Thanks, Derek @ Chicago

Messages in this topic (2)
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3b. Re: Shots N Vaccines
Posted by: "Michelle LaFay" pawsitivelycaring@gmail.com mblafay
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 2:12 pm ((PDT))

+++++Mod note: please take all discussion regarding this to the lists mentioned below or to raw chat +++++++++++++


http://www.truthaboutvaccines.net
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/TruthAboutVaccines/

#1 no - all of them
#2 no

On 7/2/07, Val Kilmer <DPM333@aol.com> wrote:
>
> I have a 15 week old Bull Terrier pup that's ben on RAW from week 6 & hes
> doing wonderfull. He eats anything i put infront of him & he loves every
> bit of it.
> My question to the group is my Vet has ben giving him shots every 3
> weeks. We were just in for our 15 week shots & made a appointment for out
> 18 week shots.
> #1 are all these shots necessary? If not, what ones can i eliminate
> from giving him.
> #2 he gave me heartworm pills (u know the ones u put the sticker on the
> calander & u give him once a month) Are theses necessary?
> Thanks, Derek @ Chicago
>
>


--
Michelle LaFay
Pawsitively Caring Pet Sitting
http://www.pawsitivelycaring.com
pawsitivelycaring@gmail.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. Re: Beef Heart
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 1:33 pm ((PDT))

My GSDS do great on heart; even if I haven't fed it for awhile, the stools
are not as bad as a liver only meal. And I feed heart as a meal too.
--
Tina Berry
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (23)
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5. pork heads - keep how long ? Smash ? Elk heads ?
Posted by: "Lisa S." acbrio@shaw.ca trzazz
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 1:33 pm ((PDT))

I got my 40 pound dog his first pork head and he LOVES it, but he
doesn't eat a huge amount off of it each time. How long should I keep
it before I should toss it ? I have been keeping it outside only as
long as he's eating it, then I put it back into the fridge overnight.
This is the fifth day now since I first thawed it out. I gave it to
him 3 times so far. The first time, he chewed at the back of it for
45 minutes. The second time, he didn't want any (I left it outside
for only 10 minutes). The third time (last night), he chewed
enthusiastically at it for almost 2 hours. He has still only gotten
the back of the head eaten and most of the lower jaw, with the lower
jaw bone mostly still there. I don't know if he will be able to get
through the skull at all. The head is about 12 " from snout to the
back of the ears. It weighs about 15 pounds.

Would it be possible to smash the skull with my sledgehammer so he
can get to the brain ? Should I try that ? If so, from the top,
bottom, side ? (ew)
How long should I keep a pork head in the fridge before considering
throwing it out ? It doesn't smell, or anything.

I wonder how elk heads would be ?

The funniest part with the pork heads is that he gets really mad at
the flies. He curls his lip, growls and snaps at them. I don't think
flies understand dog language ;-) . Looking at him chewing on the
head was a bit weird, but he looked very happy with it, eyes closing
while chewing, as if he was in heaven. He allowed me to take it away
from him any time I wanted to. I simply walked over and "claimed" it,
like Cesar Milan does, then I picked it up. No problem. No growling
at me.

I guess I should introduce myself, too :).
I have a 40 pound, 2 year old Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever. He
has been raw fed all of his life, including by the breeder. Since a
raw buying group was recently formed in my city, I have been trying
some new things. Next order, I'm including lamb kidney, pork spleen,
veal sweetbreads (pancreas and thymus gland) and ground wild herring.
He already eats pork tongue, pork neck bones, salmon chunks, whole
smelts and sardines, tripe (loves it), chicken backs & necks, turkey
necks, beef organ mix, beef heart, elk tongue & liver, raw eggs with
shell, oils (cold water fish oil, salmon oil, Arctic Vigor, cod liver
oil).

Oddly, he does not like chicken organs or turkey liver. He will eat
the chicken organs, though, if I grind them up and mix them with
tripe.

Thanks,

- Lisa S.
and Brio
http://community.webshots.com/user/acbrio

Calgary, Alberta, Canada


Messages in this topic (1)
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6a. Re: Feeding 6 month old pups
Posted by: "Kay" k12lytle@flash.net kay12327
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 1:33 pm ((PDT))

You are doing great!
>
> Andrea
>


Thanks!

Kay


Messages in this topic (6)
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7. whole furry rabbit & quail with feathers on
Posted by: "Lisa S." acbrio@shaw.ca trzazz
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 1:33 pm ((PDT))

I have been promised a whole furry rabbit and a quail or two with
feathers on them. Any tips on how to introduce those to my dog would
be appreciated. Should I leave the feathers on ? Or pluck the first
one ? He hasn't had anything whole before. He is a 40 pound Nova
Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever, raw fed all his life. He is not a
gulper.

He loves his latest (a pork head), so I'm guessing that something
large-ish is not a problem.

- Lisa S.
and Brio
http://community.webshots.com/user/acbrio


Messages in this topic (1)
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8a. Identifying edible bones versus "tooth-wreckers"
Posted by: "K Carolyn Ramamurti" lilith23360@yahoo.com lilith23360
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 1:34 pm ((PDT))

OK, I am reading old posts and just finished the "chipped tooth" exchange (Ania, I am so sorry!) At any rate, I hope to learn something from that situation. Any and all bones from chicken, game hen, turkey, duck, and any other birds are o.k. to feed, right? And fish bones? But NOT weight-bearing bones from cows or sheep? Shoulders, ribs and anything else other than large leg bones from cows, sheep or pigs are fine, right?

Thanks!

Carolyn in Seattle, devoted to raw-feeding her carnivores but still vegetarian herself


---------------------------------
Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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8b. Re: Identifying edible bones versus "tooth-wreckers"
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 3:01 pm ((PDT))

Hi Carolyn,

Depends on the size of the dog and how s/he eats. In general, all
dogs should avoid the leg bones of cows, bison/buffalo. My dog has 2
chipped teeth from these before I knew better. I think I've heard
that some dogs can eat beef ribs--my 20 lb. Boston can't (I
occasionally give them but take the bones away after he's cleaned
them off). Any poultry, rabbit, or fish is fine/edible for all
dogs. Pork, lamb, and goat will depend on the dog. Mine eats the
ribs, necks, and parts of the legs. Bigger dogs can probably eat
more or all of the legs of these animals.

Laurie
(vegetarian in Seattle too :-) )

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, K Carolyn Ramamurti
<lilith23360@...> wrote:
Any and all bones from chicken, game hen, turkey, duck, and any
other birds are o.k. to feed, right? And fish bones? But NOT weight-
bearing bones from cows or sheep? Shoulders, ribs and anything else
other than large leg bones from cows, sheep or pigs are fine, right?


Messages in this topic (3)
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8c. Re: Identifying edible bones versus "tooth-wreckers"
Posted by: "Karen Swanay" luvbullbreeds@gmail.com kswanay1111
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 3:21 pm ((PDT))

Hi Carolyn,
>


It does really depend on the dog and the style of chewing. I just had my
mini dach have a molar pulled ($388.77) because of a slab fracture. He was
eating a pork chop bone. He has no issues with rib bones (cow or pig)
because he chews them differently. This is one of those things you'll have
to learn by watching your dog and know that even when you are careful,
accidents can still happen. (As they do with kibble feeding too.)

Good luck!
Karen


>
>

--
"Family isn't about whose blood you have. It's about who you care about."

LOI 1/26/07
PA 3/22/07


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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9. Michigan Suppliers
Posted by: "Compassion for Greyhounds" gencfg@gmail.com g_manders
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 2:11 pm ((PDT))

Hi! I'm currently feeding 6 greyhounds a raw diet. I'm looking for suppliers
in the West Michigan or Kalamazoo area. I'm trying to expand our resource
list.

Thanks!

Gen & 6 happy greyhounds


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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10a. Re: Veal breast
Posted by: "metra_co" metraco@hotmail.com metra_co
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 2:12 pm ((PDT))

> Jagger has finally had a solid poop. Gave him some veal breast this
> am and he has watery poop. I'm guessing this happens whenever you
> intoduce something new. Do I continue to give it to him in hopes that
> he will adjust? Thanks again and sorry for all the posts, Kathy
>

I started Rusty on raw with veal breasts, and I remember they were
really fatty and I was trimming out HUGE chunks of fat out of it
(between the meat and bone, especially). Now I can feed them without
trimming, unless it's an especially fatty piece and I'll trim it a
little. I was surprised because I assumed that veal would be lean, but
it's a fatty cut, which can lead to loose stools if your dog isn't used
to it. Metra

Messages in this topic (2)
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11a. Feeding Raw
Posted by: "truthseeker448" truthseeker448@yahoo.com truthseeker448
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 2:53 pm ((PDT))


Hello! I am new to this and I am obviously somewhat ignorant as to how
to navigate certain threads I want to read on this group site. Anyway,
I am coming around to agreeing with feeding raw as my labs ear
infections and other areas are finally clearing up, this has been a long
going chronic thing we've been dealing with. I am trying to gather
information on the internet and sift thru what is true to what is false
or bad advice..... some say, don't feed veggies and some say do. Don't
feed flax oil, you don't need to supplement....ect... My case is kind
of complicated as my lab has had a "tie back" procedure for laryngeal
paralysis, which means she has a permanent opening in her throat. I am
a little leary of giving her bones for this reason and also because I
gave her a raw lamb bone one time and she developed a bad
stomach/intestinal (??) infection. I know someone who has a rotty and
all he feeds him is chicken breasts. Need help discerning what is good
to feed. My yellow lab is only 50 pounds.

-Carol


Messages in this topic (11)
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12. PROBLEMS WITH GROUND EGGSHELLS, ANYONE?
Posted by: "alliecaracleo" alliecaracleo@yahoo.com alliecaracleo
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 2:53 pm ((PDT))

Just fed first serving of finely ground eggshells with usual food and
11y Tabby threw up. B'bs wont eat bone so supplementing. Other cat did
ok. Sensitivity for some cats to eggshells?

Is crushing bone finely and mixing into food better solution? Purer
form of calcium, correct?


Have a good one
Denise
(Allison,Caramia and Ms Cleo)

Messages in this topic (1)
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13. Questioning and need reassurance
Posted by: "woofwoofgrrl" cmc4lists1@gastrounit.com woofwoofgrrl
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 3:01 pm ((PDT))

Since Courtney (12yo BC) has come down with issues with her kidneys,
I've been questioning my switch to raw. I know it feels right, and the
other two, younger, dogs are doing quite well. However, she had blood
work done in April, coincidentally right before the switch, and there
were no kidney indicators at that time. So I'm concerned that switching
her to raw was the wrong thing to do! And of course, my parents are
blaming her problems on the diet too. The vet hasn't actually said that
she thinks it's the diet and so far they have been quite willing to work
with me, but there is always that nagging question in my own mind.
Is the timing just coincidental? Did the diet exacerbate a latent
problem? <sigh> I need reassurance and data. :(

Thanks!
Christine


Messages in this topic (1)
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14a. Re: expiration dates
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 3:02 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Jessie" <O_snobunnie_O@...>
wrote:
>
> So now that I've realized where to find the sale priced meats I'll
> be keeping an eye out, but just wanted to know if there's anything
> special I need to do?

Jessie,

Feed all the out of date meat you can find. Beg friends to give you
their out of date and freezer burned meat from their freezer.
Expiration dates mean nothing to a dog. They have terrific
digestive systems that can handle meat that would kill a gown
man. :) :) :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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14b. Re: expiration dates
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 5:19 pm ((PDT))

"Jessie" <O_snobunnie_O@...> wrote:
>
> how do you guys feel about using meat close to, on or after its
> expiration date?
>
> I already plan to feed what I bought and not worry about it, but I
> don't plan on using only old meat... just didn't know if anyone
> followed any guidelines on the dates?
*****
Our local buying group rents out a locker corner from a meat
wholesaler; a few weeks ago the owner mentioned he had expired meat
back from his store for .50/lb, was I interested? WAS I INTERESTED?
He had boxes of beef and fish and yes, there was a feeding frenzy.
Scoring expired meat is a time honored practice for raw feeders.

The words "special today" are near and dear to my heart and
pocketbook. This approach to stocking up works really well after big
turkey holidays (I found freerange turkeys for .29/lb!) and after big
BBQ holidays as well. I think many of us have learned to cruise the
meat department early in the morning or before closing or on blow-out
days, looking for the deals.


> So now that I've realized where to find the sale priced meats I'll
> be keeping an eye out, but just wanted to know if there's anything
> special I need to do?
*****
For feeding your dogs? Just carry a big enough basket!


> I plan on either feeding it that day or freezing it and feeding it
> immediately (rather than letting it sit in the fridge for a few
days
> like I usually do if I don't use the entire bag at once).
*****
I don't give these meats any particular care; if I were feeding them
to me I'd be treating them as you suggest, but for my dogs, I really
do not worry. A few years ago I got some expired lamb legs
for .99/lb; great price, seriously--stunningly--whiffy. I rinsed off
the legs, fed them, never saw ANYTHING bad come of the meals. Only
happy happy dogs.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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15. super gassy doggy
Posted by: "LaUrA" laurasue17@hotmail.com angel_2_u_23
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 3:02 pm ((PDT))

Snoopy has always been gassy but it seems to have gotten worse since raw feeding. We have been feeding all parts of chicken, beef and pork. They eat once a day. Yet Snoopy continues to have room clearing gas. It is nasty. Any suggestions?

Laura
Proud Mommy to Miss Samantha (9 years old going on 16! LOL!!) and step mom to Heather -17, Nikki - 14 and Michelle - 8 - the most beautiful girls in the world!!!!!
Mom to furbabies: Snoopy (male - neutered - 9 month old - pit mix - 60lbs.) and Zoey (super smart hearing impaired female - spayed - 5 month old - pit mix - approx. 35lbs.)

The American Pitbull Terrier...those who know them can't explain...those who don't, can't understand.

If you don't stand behind our troops, you can feel free to stand in IN FRONT of them.

http://www.myspace.com/dreaming_fairy_23
http://groups.myspace.com/dogloversinfayetteville

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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16. Bitten while taking a bone away
Posted by: "stacey7881" staceydippong@gmail.com stacey7881
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 3:21 pm ((PDT))

Hi everyone,

I have a 4 month old Shih Tzu puppy and I have been feeding her raw for
about a month now - she loves it and is doing great. Most of the time
she gets raw chicken with the bones.

She was eating part of a chicken thigh with the bone attached today,
and was having a really hard time crunching the bone - it was actually
caught (wedged on) on her upper teeth. I tried to get it out of her
mouth and she bite my thumb through the nail and well into my thumb
below...very unexpected and quite painful.

My question is - is this something that I should be worried about? I
don't think it was intentional at all but it makes me nervous in the
future - should I start crushing her bones for her?

Thanks,

Stacey

Messages in this topic (1)
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17a. Re: Shots & vaccines
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 3:23 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Val Kilmer" <DPM333@...> wrote:
>
> What shots should he still need & when can i stop giving him
> shots if
> at all, & does he need these heartworm pills?


Forget the supplements, oils (except maybe salmon oil), and vitamins.

Forget any more vaccinations. Your dog is immune. I hope he hasn't
had a rabies shot yet. If he hasn't, put it off until at least 6
months of age or older.

I give the heartworm pills every 45 days during mosquito season
beginning 45 days after mosquitoes appear.

Do some research on both vaccinations and heartworm "prevenative"
before you give any more of either.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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18a. Re: Howdy!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 3:54 pm ((PDT))

"sazkeeper" <sazkeeper@...> wrote:
> Well, I guess I need to explain myself a little better - so I don't
> get flamed uneccesarily. I've only been feeding raw for a little
> UNDER a week - and all my research said to start with one type of
> food at a time.
*****
True. It's recommended but not madatory. Explaining oneself
adequately the first time is often the best way to avoid confusion.


I
> have been going through my freezer to see what I already have and
> have fed breast meat as well - just backs as a staple.
*****
There is nothing about chicken backs to recommend them as a staple
over meatier chicken parts. They are cheap body parts and while this
gives them a ertain panache they aren't necessarily more appropriate
for a nine week old pup than a leg, say. If you had read more
perhaps, you might have seen that rib-in (and maybe skin off) chicken
breasts are frequently recommended as starter meals.


> > not too sure if I will switch Bullet, my cat, as he
> > > is 17 yrs old and doesn't have too many teeth left. Any advice
> in
> > > that area?
> > *****
> > I suggest you subscribe to RawCat, where cats--as is their wont--
> > reign supreme.
>
> If I get a better reception there, maybe I will.
*****
I don't know what sort of reception you expected so it's hard to know
how you'll feel on RawCat. One can only try. A 17 year old cat with
few remaining teeth has special needs for at least three reasons--
species, age and dental hygiene. RawCat is a huge species specific
resource of been-there, done-that. You may certainly discuss his
issues here but I promise you, he will get more attention on RawCat.
It is of course your choice.


> Considering I got the information on COOKED liver as training
treats
> from this group's files that it wouldn't be out of line to ask for
> more details... guess I was wrong.
*****
Perhaps the information is in the files to circumvent the need to
discuss the topic further on this list. However, you would have had
no way of knowing this, so don't take offense for being told.
RawChat was started specifically to provide room for the multitude of
topics that are relevant and perhaps even vital to rawfeeders but are
not about feeding raw food.


> If I had known that sarcasm and beratement were the way I was going
> to be greeted as a new raw feeder -
*****
What? Because you are feeding bony parts and don't provide
mitigating information you feed berated? I suspect that, yes, you
have blown something out of proportion.

I don't recall having written anything particularly sarcastic or
punitive so I am not at all sure I understand why your knickers are
so in a twist.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (9)
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19a. Re: different cuts of ribs - and lamb/goat cuts
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 4:30 pm ((PDT))

"Chrissy" <hylesrayburn@...> wrote:
>
> I know this is an out there question but I keep seeing people
buying or slaughtering Sheep/Goat at really small dressed weight. The
last lambs I had butchered were very small and both of them were well
over 70lbs. The hot weight on a full grown Ram is about 250# and a
Ewe is about 175#.
*****
I have no idea what a lamb dresses out to but I imagine it depends on
the age and breed. I've never dressed out a lamb, nor have I even
ordered one. I was referring to goat and specifically goats that are
processed in either NW or Australia for the US market. Without head,
tail, offal, feet or hair the goats make case weight as described.

If I were to slaughter a lamb or goat I would do it to my needs and
almost certainly the end weight would be far different than what my
meat wholesaler offers! In fact, if I were to process my own
livestock I probably wouldn't even know (or worry about) live or
hanging weight, I'd just do it. FWIW, I doubt the kids I've fed to
my dogs were not even ten pounds, whole.

If you can raise some sheep for your dogs, my goodness you should! No
question that you'll get more bang (or dog food) for your dollar that
way.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (15)
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20a. Re: sources?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 4:54 pm ((PDT))

"antarpremal" <antarpremal@...> wrote:
>I would love to get some wild meat, rabbit, elk,
> deer.....not easy to come by in the suburbs.
*****
Have you posted your wish list to the CarnivoreFeed-Supplier list?
It's a sister list opened specifically to help people link up with
suppliers who have want rawfeeders want.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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21a. Re: Need Help. PLEASE
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 5:41 pm ((PDT))

"merril Woolf" <merril@...> wrote:
>> Shame you wasted all that good food. :-(( I'm going to be
thinking about that all day now.
*****
My dogs agree.
If one horks something up and won't re-eat it (a rarity indeed) the
others clamor for a shot at the stuff. Except for mackerel. Mackerel
gets horked up, it gets ignored.

However, in all fairness to out-of-sorts dogs, there are times when
vomiting indicates ill health and it behooves us as responsible dog
owners to know what's ill health and what's over-indulgence or gluttony.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11752

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Ground beef
From: kimberlykay1119
1b. Re: Ground beef
From: carnesbill
1c. Re: Ground beef
From: Jeannine
1d. Re: Ground beef
From: chele519
1e. Re: Ground beef
From: Jeannine

2a. Re: Advice re: softest bones?
From: costrowski75
2b. Re: Advice re: softest bones?
From: Jaimie Young

3a. Re: Howdy!
From: mlodge
3b. Re: Howdy!
From: carnesbill
3c. Re: Howdy!
From: tottime47

4. Sources?
From: antarpremal

5a. fat belly
From: Diane
5b. Re: fat belly
From: Casey Post

6. sources?
From: antarpremal

7a. Re: Your thoughts as I take the plunge?
From: tottime47
7b. Re: Your thoughts as I take the plunge?
From: Andrea

8a. lamb neck bones
From: noveltycakedecorator
8b. Re: lamb neck bones
From: Giselle

9. expiration dates
From: Jessie

10. Shots & vaccines
From: Val Kilmer

11. Re: sarcasm and beratement
From: Michael Moore

12. Veal breast
From: Kathy McCusker

13a. Re: Need Help. PLEASE
From: merril Woolf

14.1. Re: venison
From: Yasuko herron

15a. Re: supplemnet for joints(this may not be topic here so,I post at ra
From: Yasuko herron


Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Ground beef
Posted by: "kimberlykay1119" kimberlykay119@sbcglobal.net kimberlykay1119
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 6:59 am ((PDT))

Just to add my .02 here, a friend just gave us 20 pounds of ground
venison last Friday. We fed it frozen, so the jaws still got a little
work out. I always forget that we can stuff the Kong with it. That
will probably be our next attempt to feed. Other than some gas from
the higher fat content, everyone tolerated the venison well. I told
our friend we would want him to bag 2 deer next time he goes and pay
the $40 for the butchering. I am so excited, I can't wait for hunting
season.
Kimberly

> It's not optimal to feed lots of ground all of the time, but it can
> have a place in a good diet. It doesn't require the dog to work
> at/rip/tear apart and doesn't have bones, so is of no help in the
> dental hygiene area. It can be high in fat, which is just something
to
> keep in mind.

Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Ground beef
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 7:05 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "trayc2244" <BreeZ119@...> wrote:
>
> Is ground beef okay to feed?
>

Sure its ok to feed on a limited basis. Like Laurie said, you don't
want to feed it every day but it's great to supplement a real boney
meal or to feed alone once or twice a week maybe even more.
Personally I don't see that a meal of ground beef would be any
different than any other boneless meal.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: Ground beef
Posted by: "Jeannine" rosewhatley@msn.com eastexgranny
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 7:05 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "kimberlykay1119"
<kimberlykay119@...> wrote:
>
> Just to add my .02 here, a friend just gave us 20 pounds of ground
> venison last Friday. We fed it frozen, so the jaws still got a
little
> work out. I always forget that we can stuff the Kong with it.
That
> will probably be our next attempt to feed. Other than some gas
from
> the higher fat content, everyone tolerated the venison well. I
told
> our friend we would want him to bag 2 deer next time he goes and
pay
> the $40 for the butchering. I am so excited, I can't wait for
hunting
> season.
> Kimberly
>

May I ask, "What is Kong"?
Thanks,
Jeannine


Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________

1d. Re: Ground beef
Posted by: "chele519" chele519@yahoo.com chele519
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 8:54 am ((PDT))

It's a hard rubber in various shapes you can fill with food for your dog.

http://www.kongcompany.com/

i run at 5am and the dogs bark and my
neighbor complains. I give them a Kong filled with ground meat and
frozen and it keeps them quiet for at least an hour.
Michele

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Jeannine" <rosewhatley@...> wrote:

>
> May I ask, "What is Kong"?
> Thanks,
> Jeannine
>


Messages in this topic (14)
________________________________________________________________________

1e. Re: Ground beef
Posted by: "Jeannine" rosewhatley@msn.com eastexgranny
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 1:31 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "chele519" <chele519@...> wrote:
>
> It's a hard rubber in various shapes you can fill with food for your
dog.
> http://www.kongcompany.com/

i run at 5am and the dogs bark and my
> neighbor complains. I give them a Kong filled with ground meat and
> frozen and it keeps them quiet for at least an hour.
> Michele
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Jeannine" <rosewhatley@> wrote:
>
> >
> > May I ask, "What is Kong"?
> > Thanks,
> > Jeannine
> >
>
Thank you so much, Michelle!
I may get one for Daisy.
Jeannine

Messages in this topic (14)
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2a. Re: Advice re: softest bones?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 7:26 am ((PDT))

Samantha Morris <smmastai@...> wrote:
also tried lamb ribs this
> weekend. I know the ribs contain a fair amount of
> bone so I will try to get a meatier piece of the
> animal next time.
*****
Just as one can include bony parts like chicken and turkey backs in a
menu that is generous with its meat, lamb ribs can also be fed even
though by themselves they are pretty bony. It's only if/when these
bony body parts hijack the menu that they need to be restrained.

So if feeding lamb ribs gives your dog a rip and tear opportunity (or
at least the chance to puzzle out an approach), feed them. Adding
meat to the meal is a fine way of defusing what might be--for the dog-
-a too bony meal.


> My question re. poultry legs was are they hard on the
> teeth since they are weight bearing bones?
*****
No. Not unless you are feeding home grown birds that have been
running around for some years. Commercial chickens die young.


I have however fed buffalo necks and beef
> necks which I bought frozen from a pet store that
> carries raw.
*****
My vote goes unequivocally to those nasty bones the pet store sold
you. A bone doesn't have to be edible to be dangerous. Please
reconsider rec bones. Chicken legs are not the issue here.

You should be able to feed chicken bones, most turkey bones, most
lamb and goat bones, most pork bones, fish bones, some venison bones,
rabbit bones, quail bones, duck bones, squirrel bones the bones of
other small prey animals.

Just stay away from bones from earthshakingly heavy critters. No
bison, no beef, no horse, no elephant. Meat: fine. Bones: not fine.
Chris O


Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: Advice re: softest bones?
Posted by: "Jaimie Young" jaimiey@gmail.com nadiachef06
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 1:31 pm ((PDT))


> No. Not unless you are feeding home grown birds that have been
> running around for some years. Commercial chickens die young.


We got a bunch of pastured roosters from a farm somewhat nearby- that
were definitely running around for some years- and the bones are
harder to cut through than turkey... my dogs' teeth are just fine, and
they can eat the bones, but are they hard enough to be a potential
dental problem? Thanks

Jaimie

Messages in this topic (7)
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________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Howdy!
Posted by: "mlodge" mmlodge@att.net mlodge
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 7:41 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "sazkeeper" <sazkeeper@...> wrote:
...
> If I had known that sarcasm and beratement were the way I was going
> to be greeted as a new raw feeder - I might have thought again about
> joining this list. Maybe I still will...or maybe someone can tell me
> I read too much into this reply...dunno. I hope you don't greet all
> newbies this way.
>
> Kameron
>


Welcome, Kameron.

There are very helpful instructions, imo, on drying liver in the oven
for training treats, here somewhere -- hope you can find those, I
will help look for them if you need.
Yeah on the sarcasm and detailed, critical welcomes. I have seen it
over and over again here, but I have found plenty of "moderates"
around who will help you out. Best of luck and don't be scared
away. We all have the same goal: healthier dogs.

Melissa

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: Howdy!
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 7:42 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "sazkeeper" <sazkeeper@...> wrote:
>
> Fact is, it didn't and backs were all I got - so I had to
> make due.
> It was my understanding that variety over time made balance...
> and, I
> have been going through my freezer to see what I already have and
> have fed breast meat as well - just backs as a staple. And, as one
> of my "large dogs" is still a nine-week-old puppy, backs (as I see
> it) are more suitable bones for him than legs.

Kameron,
What you have to realize is that in the area of raw feeding a dog or
cat, there are no rules carved in stone. The only serious rule is
to feed raw meat, bones, and organs from a variety of animals.
EVERYTHING else is merely opinion on the correct way to do that. I
have fed my dogs raw for over 4 1/2 years and there are many here
that have been raw feeding much longer. None of us feeds exactly
the same way. I doubt that you can find any two raw feeders that
feed exactly the same.

Having said that, I feed chicken backs to my two Great Danes every
day and have from the first day I began feeding raw. I suggest to
anyone that is just beginning a raw diet for their dogs to feed
nothing but chicken backs for the first week. This greatly helps in
preventing digestive upsets. Almost none of the dogs I have helped
switch have had any upsets. You can see my recommendations for
beginning a raw diet on my web page at

http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Don't worry a lot about balance particularly in the first couple of
months. In the beginning you are getting your dogs adjusted to
eating real food. After you have introduced a variety of protein
sources, if you feed a variety of parts from a variety of animals
along with some organs occasionally, balance will happen
automatically.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

3c. Re: Howdy!
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 7:43 am ((PDT))


Hi Kameron,

Welcome to the group.

I have only been feeding raw for a few months and
have found this group to be generous in their help and more
patience than any group I've ever been in.

They continually go over the same ground for
those too lazy or dense to read the past posts for answers....

I have never seen anyone here get sarcastic or berate anyone.
I read back through the posts you received, no where did I see that,
maybe a light teasing, but sarcasim, no...........

Each of us in the group has our own way of talking, just like in
life.........Maybe you should learn to bend a little
more.........sift out the advice and don't take every word
as a personal affront to you?

Even as a new feeder myself, when I opened your email and read
where you were feeding a new puppy chicken backs, I was
shocked.........

No where did it say you were feeding anything else but yogurt and
vitamin supplement.........

People here care about dogs and are working
hard to help us learn how to feed them properly........

Freely giving of their time and knowledge to help us and getting
nothing in return but the knowledge that they are helping dogs all
over the world.
How many are willing to do that for free?

Look at it this way, if you had a new baby and posted on a site
that you were feeding it
juice instead of formula, how do you think they'd respond, lol?

Yea, I think you read too much into all the replys.......maybe you
should stick around, learn how to feed properly and learn what a
great group this is.....If you decide not to, it's your loss and
your dogs too.........

Carol & Charkee ( I'm lovin' it mom)


--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "sazkeeper" <sazkeeper@...> wrote:

I just switched the two dogs to raw...
Right now they are both eating chicken backs, a little yogurt
in the morning, fish oil, and nupro joint supplement. I'm not sure
about supplementation yet - but will probably continue the fish oil,
and maybe switch from nupro (lots of volume of powder) to missing
link plus - mainly for the glucosamine, as both are sport dogs

Bodo, my 3yr old, made the switch no problem.
No diarrhea or anything. Lucky me! Bart is my new puppy - only 9
weeks old

Well, I guess I need to explain myself a little better - so I don't
get flamed uneccesarily. I've only been feeding raw for a little
UNDER a week - and all my research said to start with one type of
food at a time. I fully intend to add more muscle meat and organ
meat - and probably would have faster, had my entire order come in.
Fact is, it didn't and backs were all I got - so I had to make due.
It was my understanding that variety over time made balance...and, I
have been going through my freezer to see what I already have and
have fed breast meat as well - just backs as a staple. And, as one
of my "large dogs" is still a nine-week-old puppy, backs (as I see
it) are more suitable bones for him than legs.

If I get a better reception there, maybe I will. I assumed since the
name of this group is "rawfeeding" that it wasn't dog-exclusive.

If I had known that sarcasm and beratement were the way I was going
to be greeted as a new raw feeder - I might have thought again about
joining this list. Maybe I still will...or maybe someone can tell me
I read too much into this reply...dunno. I hope you don't greet all
newbies this way.

Kameron

Messages in this topic (8)
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4. Sources?
Posted by: "antarpremal" antarpremal@yahoo.com antarpremal
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 7:41 am ((PDT))

Hi. This is Jennifer. I recently posted for the first time. Just started feeding raw and have
been learning a lot on this site. Thank you.

I am wondering if you have sources to find meat that will be mailed to the house. I
currently shop at whole foods, but most of the red meat there is off bone aside from beef
ribs and lamb steak. plus it is of course expensive.

I travel to a farm for raw milk for my son. They have meat parts there but want 7.00 a lb
for heart and liver!

I am still interested in the grass fed hormone free stuff. I live in NJ, and don't know of any
butchers around here.

Anyone?

Thanks again!

Jennifer (and sacha....5 month old golden rereiver chow mix)

Messages in this topic (1)
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5a. fat belly
Posted by: "Diane" dheinicke@sbcglobal.net dalethah
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 7:41 am ((PDT))

We have a pit mix and a greyhound. We've been feeding raw for about
2 months and it's going well. Our greyhound is about 65 pounds and
the pit is about 45 or so. She is older (she's maybe 8 or 9) and a
lot less active than the greyhound (3yrs old). The pit used to get
half what the greyhound got when we were feeding kibble. I've tried
to stick with that, but don't measure quite as accurately. They
started off on all chicken, and have been getting some pork, an egg
every once in awhile and some liver.
A question - our pit girl has developed a round belly, pretty firm,
she looks kind of pregnant (impossible). She had surgery a little
over a year ago after she ate what turned out to be a tassle off of
a pillow and was blocked. She didn't eat for over a week and almost
withered away. So she has had some work done on her digestive track.
She also seems a bit sluggish now. I'm planning on cutting back on
her food and see if she drops some weight. Is it most likely just
that she's fat or might it be something else? I've read only a
little about bloating, don't know if it could be that? She hasn't
been gassy, and is always ready to eat at mealtime.

DH

Messages in this topic (2)
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5b. Re: fat belly
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 8:49 am ((PDT))

> A question - our pit girl has developed a round belly, pretty firm,
> she looks kind of pregnant (impossible).

DH,

This is a bit of a red flag for me. It sounds too localized to be normal
weight gain. I would get her looked at by a vet.

Casey

Messages in this topic (2)
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6. sources?
Posted by: "antarpremal" antarpremal@yahoo.com antarpremal
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 7:42 am ((PDT))

Oh yeah and a follow up question....I would love to get some wild meat, rabbit, elk,
deer.....not easy to come by in the suburbs. They have ground buffallo at whole foods but
that's the best I can do.

Thanks! Jennifer

Messages in this topic (1)
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7a. Re: Your thoughts as I take the plunge?
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 8:53 am ((PDT))

Hi Jeff,

Sorry, it looks like your post got lost in the group.......
How has your dog doing now?

You need to keep her on one meat for at least a week to let
her body adjust to it......If she doesn't have any stool problems
then you can add a second meat....I'd try giving her a pork roast....
seems that's the fattiest meats to give.........

Do as much reading of past posts here as you can.....you will gain a
lot of information on raw feeding for her.........

You could add some salmon oil right away. You can get the capsuls
at a health food store....search for salmon oil here on the site and
you'll get plenty of information on it.........

If she's still doing well with the chicken you could start adding
the liver & heart, gizzard from it.......

MODERATORS NOTE: TRIM YOUR MAILS, PLEASE! THIS WAS TRIMMED FOR YOU!!

She didn't get that skinny overnight so it's going to take
awhile for her to fill out if she has no other problems....
Maybe weeks.......

You want to feed her good, but don't want to try overfeeding at
each meal as it can cause loose stools..

I think you could offer her two meals a day until she shows
improvment.......

Keep an eye out for loose stools, it they turn watery,and stay that
way for several days, you could get some slippery elm bark powder and
sprinkle it on her food for a few days.........

Keep an eye on her will she's eating - stay in the area as she
is new to raw and could gulp or such and needs someone around if she
has any problems...........

Good luck, and repost if you don't get answered.......This is a busy
roup.........

Carol & Charkee

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cresco299" <gentry.jeffrey@...>
wrote:
>
> After much reading, I've finally decided to take the plunge.
>
>


Messages in this topic (3)
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7b. Re: Your thoughts as I take the plunge?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 1:31 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Jeffrey, sorry we missed this one earlier. Sounds like she's
taken to raw pretty well, I hope this will help her gain some
weight!

> 1)Are there any feeding regimes or special cuts of meat that I
> should be striving to feed to pack on the weight in a healthy
> manner?

I think the fact that she is excited about eating will help a lot in
this area. If she does well with chicken for a week or so and her
stools and digestion are good, I'd recommend switching to pork next.
Pork is pretty fatty, so that will help get some poundage on her.
You can try offering treats like pig's feet for her between mealtimes
too.

> 2)"Assuming" her weight problem is merely caused by lack of interest
> and diet alone, when should I expect to see results (weight gain)
> Days? Weeks?

It really depends on her. Some people notice their chunkier dogs
slimming down in a few weeks. If she's really underweight, I would
imagine you would see her at least start to fill out in a couple of
days. If she's eating well for more than two weeks and doesn't look
any different, I'd take her to the vet for some tests.

> 3)Given her present weight; how much is too much to be feeding her?
> (every ounce is precious, I don't want her to skip a meal because I
> over fed and she throws it all up)

You want to feed her based off of her ideal weight, so feed about a
pound of food a day. If you feed her too much at once she'll end up
with loose stools. And like you said, you want to safely put weight
on her, so you don't want to go overboard on the food.

> 4) And lastly - what if any warning signs should I be aware of?

Hmm. . .Dark blood (almost black) in the stool is something I would
be concerned about, but bright red blood is ok. Loose stools
sometimes happen, and unless it is uncontrollable watery diarreah it
isn't a big deal. Dogs sometimes swallow too big of a piece of food
and have to bring it back up for a second try, so vomiting and re-
eating is ok. Newbie dogs can also vomit up bile and bone bits after
a boney meal, so no worries about that either.

I don't know what her activity level has been like since she's so
thin, but lots of owners notice a certain amount of frantic energy
goes away when the carbs of ki**le are gone.

Hope everything is going well with the switch!

Andrea

Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. lamb neck bones
Posted by: "noveltycakedecorator" Elaine@creativecelebrationcakes.co.uk noveltycakedecorator
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 8:53 am ((PDT))

I've given my 16wk Mastiff (approximately the size of a Labrador) two
chunky lamb necks over the weekend, and although she's removed most of
the meat off of them she doesn't seem to bothered about the bone. She
knaws on them occasionally but is taking a very long time to eat them.
She is currently teething would this effect her ability to eat the
bones? She had a turkey leg the other day and again left the bone only
to knaw on it occasionally.

The question is do I just leave her with them or do I take them away?

I left her with the turkey bone for a coupple of days before taking it
away and she's still got the lamb neck bones now.

I've got some chicken for her tonight and she always eats that all up.

What do you think?

Thanks
Elaine

Messages in this topic (7)
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8b. Re: lamb neck bones
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 10:33 am ((PDT))

Hi, Elaine!
Any food, meat or bone that is left after about 15 minutes, unless
they are still actively working on it, I take up and put in the fridge
for a later meal. That is, unless its a bone that I deem too hard for
that particular dog to be safe chewing up. Those, I toss out.
Whether your pup is capable of eating them, or not, if she hasn't
eaten them in a reasonable period of time (15 minutes) take them up,
and decide to either toss it or put it in the fridge.
Bones can get dried out and brittle if left to lie around for very
long. I don't think it is a good practice to allow uneaten meals/bones
to just lie around.
Remember, all the bone offered doesn't need to be consumed. Dogs, and
pups only need about 10% of their diet to be bone, 80% meat and 10%
organ.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey


> I've given my 16wk Mastiff (approximately the size of a Labrador) two
> chunky lamb necks over the weekend, and although she's removed most of
> the meat off of them she doesn't seem to bothered about the bone. She
> knaws on them occasionally but is taking a very long time to eat them.
> She is currently teething would this effect her ability to eat the
> bones? She had a turkey leg the other day and again left the bone only
> to gnaw on it occasionally.
>
> The question is do I just leave her with them or do I take them away?
>
> I left her with the turkey bone for a couple of days before taking it
> away and she's still got the lamb neck bones now.
>
> I've got some chicken for her tonight and she always eats that all up.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Thanks
> Elaine
>


Messages in this topic (7)
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9. expiration dates
Posted by: "Jessie" O_snobunnie_O@hotmail.com osnobunnieo
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 1:30 pm ((PDT))

how do you guys feel about using meat close to, on or after its
expiration date?

I already plan to feed what I bought and not worry about it, but I
don't plan on using only old meat... just didn't know if anyone
followed any guidelines on the dates?

I was buying some meat the other day and for the first time (I'm a
little slow sometimes!) noticed the big orange "special today"
stickers on a few items I usually buy... turkey necks and drumsticks
were both packaged for $1 per pack (I think they were between 2-3lbs
each) because they expired tomorrow. I took the last two packs of
each, and they went straight to the freezer.

So now that I've realized where to find the sale priced meats I'll
be keeping an eye out, but just wanted to know if there's anything
special I need to do?

I plan on either feeding it that day or freezing it and feeding it
immediately (rather than letting it sit in the fridge for a few days
like I usually do if I don't use the entire bag at once).

Thanks!

Jessie

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10. Shots & vaccines
Posted by: "Val Kilmer" DPM333@aol.com dferris23
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 1:31 pm ((PDT))

15 week old pup: ben on raw from 6 weeks of age. Addapted great with
wide variaty of meats, organs, bones, etc.... some supps: oils,
vitimens, etc...
Vet just put him on hertworm pills.(u know the once a month pill with
the sticker that u put on the calander). Hes had shots every 3 weeks &
vet wants him back in 3 more weeks for his 18 week shots.
What shots should he still need & when can i stop giving him shots if
at all, & does he need these heartworm pills? any info/support will
help.
Thanks, Derek in Chicago

Messages in this topic (1)
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11. Re: sarcasm and beratement
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 1:31 pm ((PDT))

Let me first welcome you to the list. I guess I missed the comments that you considered offensive, but I've been on the list off-and-on for almost six years. Remember that e-mail doesn't allow us to "see" the other person's facial expression, which, in face-to-face encounters, delivers a lot of the person's "meaning" to us.
Each of us has a unique "delivery" of messages, and I've found no end to the helpful advice here. Try not to take it personally! You may find a number of folks here with off-beat, wacky senses of humor (and you know who you are!), but I personally get a big, big kick out of those people. In truth, it's why I'm still here!
It's hard when we first start to get our heads around so many concepts that long-timers take for granted. We have concerns, fears, questions that baffle and confound us. We're apprehensive, if not downright scared (I know I was!!).
There is soooo much knowledge and caring on this group. No one has an "agenda," or stands to gain financially. People are here because they feel very strongly that rawfeeding-- done nature's way -- is the absolute best way to feed our "house wolves." They spend countless hours answering questions, providing advice, and, for me, adding a few giggles to my life. I appreciate all these folks -- diverse as they are in their "style."
My hope is that you'll stick around and find the same.
Good luck.

-- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

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12. Veal breast
Posted by: "Kathy McCusker" kmccusker72@hotmail.com kathym14456
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 1:31 pm ((PDT))

Jagger has finally had a solid poop. Gave him some veal breast this
am and he has watery poop. I'm guessing this happens whenever you
intoduce something new. Do I continue to give it to him in hopes that
he will adjust? Thanks again and sorry for all the posts, Kathy

Messages in this topic (1)
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13a. Re: Need Help. PLEASE
Posted by: "merril Woolf" merril@kentfieldwhippets.com whippetsrus2002
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 1:31 pm ((PDT))

>
> Hi Casey, yes he would have eaten it again if I didn't stop him.
> Totally grossed me out.> >


You should have let him re-eat it. It would have been a bit warmer than the frozen you fed
him so would have gone down better the second time.

If he does it again, let him be. He'll clean it up. Maybe less food or not frozen next time
until his body can handle the change better.

Shame you wasted all that good food. :-(( I'm going to be thinking about that all day now.
:-)

Merril

Messages in this topic (9)
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14.1. Re: venison
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 1:32 pm ((PDT))

>1 or 2# of venison about 1# of pork kidneys about another 1# of beef liver and before that, >turkeys were on sale, so he had a couple whole turkeys with the organs they came with
>(14-16# each)

Hi,Sandy. I happened to be reading old thread here and,I noticed that in the post of your feeding list,I saw you feeding venison.

I know you are from Richmond,VA,so,I am curious where do you get Venison from?

The other day,I visited Tan-A-supermarket you recommended and,I think they did not have venison there.I saw some organs,fish,Pig feet,Chicken feet,some Duck parts and frozen goat meat slice.But,yes,I saw some stuff i could get hands on and than you for that.It took us drive there about 40mins but it was not bad at all.Plus,I found my favorite Kokuho Rose Rice:-P

I would be appreciated if you could tell me where you get that venison from.

Thank you

yassy

PS:My dog now on Pork.So,She can eat Turkey Chicken ,Beef,Fish and new Pork.Beef Ribs were my dog's quite challenging stuff for bone but Pork looks more challenging compare to other meat.Looks more chewy or more silver skin?? to work with.


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15a. Re: supplemnet for joints(this may not be topic here so,I post at ra
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Jul 2, 2007 1:32 pm ((PDT))

> Can any one recommend a good glucosomine supplement

Hi. My dog corgi 1 year 8 month now had bad limping around 8 months ago.
We did not know what was wrong and vet tested some manuplating hind leg on vet table and first time he told us to wait and see because he could not find anything bad with joint. Next time we visited,my dog got x-rayed and sedated to see more abnormal movement of leg.He told us that there was some possibility of arthritis shows on the x-ray picture and,we looked for specialist (southpaw in fairfax,VA) and our new vet told us about surgery. She was about to do similar to ACL surgery but not like pitting any metal thing in her leg(I forgot what it called) and when she opned up my dog leg,she was going to check if Patela(knee cap prob) is the cause of limping or not.

Now,we were so worried for the fact of not knowing the cause of limping and expensive surgery (1 leg 3000 dollars!!) . We could just restrain my dog's activity and heal it by herself since some cases,dog can heal up by itself I heard. But we chose surgery and,my dog went through surgery BUT,vet specialist did not find any patella problems and all my dog's hind leg's ligament was not tore although both vets were suspecting it should have been tored,and vet just opened my dog knee and took biopsy sample and just closed the leg.

Now,at this point,still everybody not sure waht was wrong with to mae my dog limping.

We anyway,put Elizabeth collar for my dog and restricted activity;no walk no stairs no jumping etc for about 6-8 weeks.

After such period,still she was limping. Vet now knew just the biopsy sample showed bit swolen and nothing else.So, 2 months after surgery,still unsure about cause and,we backed to specialist and now more experienced vet at same hospital got in charge for my dog and said that,maybe the muscle around hip and leg maybe the cause..

He told us to make appointment after a few weeks of wait and see;restricted activity.

Well,we didn't call him and did not back to that hospital.

Around that time, I came across Whole Dog Journal magazine and incidentally,the article that I got that month was featuring about joint pain. It talked about gulucosamin chondrotin,Green ripped mussel, and something else that works great for joint pain repair and preventation I remember.

So, I googled through supplements for that thinking it may change my dog limping.

Well,I bought Primary Joint Care plus that got glucosamin and green ripped mussle and other stuff (you can check on site for ingredients) at www.drsfostersmith.com


I think base ingredients are quite similar to grycoflex that cost you about 70 dollars per bottle but this one is about 30 dolars or something.

It is a tablet and, first some months,I gave my dog 1 tablet per meal total 2 tablet in a day.

Now,it did helped limping and she stopped limping and running like crazy and not favoring any leg anymore.

So,after the change,I reduced dosage to half the tablet per meal and total 1 tablet daily.

Then,we now can go for walk no problems.

I do not know any of your dog conditions get effected by any ingredients so,I suggest ask the people at drsfostersmith.com staff.They are helpful.You can call them up or e-mail them. They may help you.

Each dog is different and no idea if this works better for any other dogs but mind reacted real well.

At this moment,I am not giving this supplements because she is not limping anymore quite long time and act normal and,the food we give has some natural glucosamin (chicken feet/chicken wing etc.. of course,when I give these ,i need to give meaty piece too but..) .
So,I am thinking that if she started limping again regardless this raw food diet and getting natural glucosamin,I might give this supplement but not now. She is healthy enough.

Afterall,noone knows why my dog was limping but,I am bit suspecting diet and vaccination.
I am trying to learn best care possible for my dog here.

I hope this helps.

yassy


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