Feed Pets Raw Food: Nov 3, 2007

Saturday, November 3, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12235

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Pancreatitis, diarrhea, antibiotic side effects
From: connie
1b. Re: Pancreatitis, diarrhea, antibiotic side effects
From: connie
1c. Re: Pancreatitis, diarrhea, antibiotic side effects
From: Patty Linden
1d. Pancreatitis, diarrhea, antibiotic side effects
From: Patricia Purvis
1e. Re: Pancreatitis, diarrhea, antibiotic side effects
From: Giselle

2a. Re: raw/calcium/phosphorus
From: Sandee Lee
2b. Re: raw/calcium/phosphorus
From: costrowski75
2c. Re: raw/calcium/phosphorus
From: Michael Moore
2d. Re: raw/calcium/phosphorus
From: briargarden07

3.1. Mountain Oysters? - Yassy
From: tottime47

4a. Re: Puppy is still throwing up
From: Alecia Hammack
4b. Re: Puppy is still throwing up
From: connie

5.1. Re: Ok, no more talk about bloat, how about Mountain Oysters?
From: tottime47
5.2. Re: Ok, no more talk about bloat, how about Mountain Oysters?
From: shefy gupta

6. Horse okay?
From: Deb

7a. Re: AKC poll on raw feeding
From: Lynne Noll

8a. possible problem
From: LaDawn
8b. Re: possible problem
From: Casey Post

9a. Re: Exactly what IS a knuckle bone?
From: Giselle
9b. Re: Exactly what IS a knuckle bone?
From: costrowski75

10a. Re: Is small hen OK to feed....?
From: costrowski75
10b. Re: Is small hen OK to feed....?
From: shefy gupta

11. 5 dogs New to Raw Two Weeks
From: Stephanie

12. Pregnancy question again
From: diannem200400

13a. Re: goat (was How large is a gorge meal?
From: Laurie Swanson

Messages
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1a. Re: Pancreatitis, diarrhea, antibiotic side effects
Posted by: "connie" justbullies@hotmail.com bullienut
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 5:21 pm ((PDT))

> Yeah, I have to ask how this diagnosis was made as well (for
pancreatitis).

> Casey

Has anyone heard of this site? or used it? It was emailed to me by a
friend asking if I knew anything....I don`t. She wants to know how
accurate this could be or just a place to throw your money away.Thanks..
~connie~
and a bunch of bullies
www.justbullies.com

Messages in this topic (15)
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1b. Re: Pancreatitis, diarrhea, antibiotic side effects
Posted by: "connie" justbullies@hotmail.com bullienut
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 5:21 pm ((PDT))

OOps! Here is the website..I think I forgot to add the link:
http://www.thepetcheckup.com/

Thanks..
~connie~
and a bunch of bullies
www.justbullies.com

Messages in this topic (15)
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1c. Re: Pancreatitis, diarrhea, antibiotic side effects
Posted by: "Patty Linden" pattykat3@yahoo.com pattykat3
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 5:42 pm ((PDT))

ginny wilken <gwilken@alamedanet.net> wrote:
On Nov 3, 2007, at 2:26 PM, Patty Linden wrote:

>
> Regarding what caused his pancreatitis--all I know is that the vet
> told me he must have gotten into some fatty foods. When I first
> adopted him, he had been found wandering the streets, apparently
> had been attacked by some other animals, and had to have surgery to
> cut off dead flesh from him wounded rear. They thought he had been
> walking around for several days like that from the appearance of
> his wound. It was about a month after I took him home that his
> first attack of pancreatitis occurred.
>

Just curious if he had been given distemper or other vaccines during
his recovery period... Distemper in particular can mess up digestive
processes for life, and, IMO, is one of the primary causes of chronic
intolerance, chronic loose stools, frequent vomiting, etc.
-----------------------------------------------------
When I first got him, after his surgery, he was given a number of vaccines--I think distemper was one of them. Unfortunately, I didn't know then what I know now--wish I could turn the clock back.

Thanks for your reply, Ginny--
:-) Patty

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Messages in this topic (15)
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1d. Pancreatitis, diarrhea, antibiotic side effects
Posted by: "Patricia Purvis" purvisp@yahoo.com purvisp
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 7:49 pm ((PDT))

My cat refused to eat chicken after several months of chicken and then I found out it was bad. It didn't smell bad, but my friend and I split large packages of chicken and I asked her about it and found out that her dog refused to eat it, too. So I tossed that chicken, got different chicken, and now he happily eats the chicken.

I would imagine this does not happen that often. I'm a newby, so I don't know. Also, he did not get diahrea, he just would not eat.

And cats are far more finicky than dogs--although, as I say, my friend's dog wouldn't eat the chicken eitehr.

But if you have been feeding from the same batch, you might try a different batch of chicken just to see if there is an difference. Some people find chicken with preservatives really messes with their dogs stools, too. So maybe even switch brands or butchers or what have you in case there is something in the meat that you don't know about.

Patricia

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Messages in this topic (15)
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1e. Re: Pancreatitis, diarrhea, antibiotic side effects
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 9:56 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Patty!
In addition to feeding leaner meats and small meals, feeding
raw pancreas can be helpful.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

<snip>
>
>
> > I was wondering if anyone else has had similar problems trying to feed a
> dog whose pancreas may not be functioning completely normally--and also,
> if
> I am doing the right thing by giving him a probiotic, in an attempt to
> perhaps restore the flora in his digestive tract that the long period on
> an
> antibiotic probably upset.
> >
> > Any suggestions (other than taking him back to the vet) anyone could
> give
> me would be very much appreciated.
> > :-) Patty
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (15)
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2a. Re: raw/calcium/phosphorus
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 5:28 pm ((PDT))

Hi Sandy,

You are right...a prey model raw diet will provide everything in perfect
quantities and balance for your puppy to grow slow, strong and healthy.
There is no benefit to canned or dry foods.

Vets (even holistic) don't have a clue about nutrition and certainly aren't
aware of the benefits of feeding prey model.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "beaulah_2001us" <beaulah_2001us@yahoo.com>

My holistic vet said she would keep our puppy on at least half canned
or kibble mixed with raw until she is 8 months old so that calcuim and
phosphorus levels are maintained and good bones are made.

Doesnt raw meaty bones do this on its own? If it doesnt is there
another way I can give her a good balance of these and know she is
getting all she needs of both of these minerals?

Messages in this topic (5)
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2b. Re: raw/calcium/phosphorus
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 8:28 pm ((PDT))

"beaulah_2001us" <beaulah_2001us@...> wrote:>
> My holistic vet said she would keep our puppy on at least half
canned
> or kibble mixed with raw until she is 8 months old so that calcuim
and
> phosphorus levels are maintained and good bones are made.
*****
Oh dear.
I think your holistic vet isn't so whole when it comes to nutrition
for the young wolfdog. Commercial food can only hope to emulate what
Ma Nature provides without fuss.

> Doesnt raw meaty bones do this on its own?
*****
Yes. A diet of meat, edible bone and organs absolutely provides
calcium and phos in a natural and healthy relationship.
While "balance" is a term born of human engineering, Ma Nature does
offer her own version of balance, and that's wole prey. Whether you
feed whole prey or you feed a variety of body parts--some meaty, some
more bony--you will be balancing as Ma Nature intended.

If it doesnt
*****
Ah, but it does. And that's the magic of it. Simple. Easy. Correct.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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2c. Re: raw/calcium/phosphorus
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 9:38 pm ((PDT))

>My holistic vet said she would keep our puppy on at least half canned
or kibble mixed with raw until she is 8 months old so that calcuim and
phosphorus levels are maintained and good bones are made.

Doesnt raw meaty bones do this on its own? If it doesnt is there
another way I can give her a good balance of these and know she is
getting all she needs of both of these minerals? <<

Sandy -- I wonder how your vet thinks wolves get canned and/or ki**le in the wild?? What an utterly ridiculous statement, IMO!! Raw meat, organs and bones are truly everything that your puppy needs. Nature's model shows us that this is the optimal diet for our "house wolves."
-- Anne Moore (M-Tak PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue) in NW Ohio

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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2d. Re: raw/calcium/phosphorus
Posted by: "briargarden07" briargarden07@yahoo.com briargarden07
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 9:38 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "beaulah_2001us"
<beaulah_2001us@...> wrote:
>
> My holistic vet said she would keep our puppy on at least half canned
> or kibble mixed with raw until she is 8 months old so that calcuim
and
> phosphorus levels are maintained and good bones are made.
>
> Doesnt raw meaty bones do this on its own?

Yes, RMBs are the BEST source for an ideal calcium:phosphorous ratio!
Kibble contains artificial forms of calcium such as the poorly digested
calcium carbonate or worse, dicalcium phosphate. The latter is better
absorbed by the body, but was the bane of my growing Beale pups :x I
frequently had Pano in every single kibble fed pup, regardless of
how "natural" the kibble was. My pups on raw grow to have nice even
growth and good bone structure. I do feed a bit more bony parts & prgan
meats until they are 6 mos, and cannot imagine ever going back to
kibble to grow my puppers.

Either you believe the diet is good, or it isn't, IMHO. If the Vet
wants to endorese raw, I don't understand why he'd insist ont he
kibble. If its good enough for keeping adult dogs in optimal health,
its even better to go all raw for pups :)

Noelle M.

Messages in this topic (5)
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3.1. Mountain Oysters? - Yassy
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 5:52 pm ((PDT))

Hi Yassy,

I got a package of them for my dogs. The ones I got were about the
size of softballs, lol.

I had no idea they would become very squishy once thawed. I was
able to (barely) cut them in half and then cut one of the halves up
for my little dogs. They seemed to like it and ate all of it with no
poo problems. I fed it with meat........they did try chewing it up
themselves but it is very, very tough!

I will say of all the things I have offered so far this had to be a
10 on the gross scale for me, hehehehe........

Carol, Charkee & Moli ( we liked it! )

-------------

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Yasuko herron
> I have never seen the oyster thing with my eyes so,I do not know
how big they are,but if it were too big for my dog,is it possible to
cut?? Kind of gross but,wondering if it possible or not.
>
> I know only one protin source I can get oyster thing;buffalo.
>
> So,if it was something I feel like feeding,I can order them,but I
wascurious when I read this thread.
>
> It be fed asorgan meat so,too much cause,diarrhea,correct?
>
> Thanks,
>
> yassy
>
> __________________________________________________
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>
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>

Messages in this topic (29)
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4a. Re: Puppy is still throwing up
Posted by: "Alecia Hammack" akhwbj1@yahoo.com akhwbj1
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 5:52 pm ((PDT))

They did xray's, bloodwork, and monitored him for those 48 hours. They told us it was either seizure's, food allergy, or his spincter in his stomach was not closing correctly. He is gaining weight now. He was not gaining weight with the dog food, but since we switched to raw he has gained around 3 lbs. He seems to be doing fine except for the throwing up. I have not gave him any heart worm, fleas, or tick chemicals. The vet does know we are feeding raw. He had a problem with it at first, but then released it is the only thing helping him. Thanks for the advice.

Alecia

connie <justbullies@hotmail.com> wrote:
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Alecia Hammack <akhwbj1@...> wrote:
I don't think we can give him a break because he acts like he is
starving now. We are so new to this and just
> need help. Thanks so much for responding.
>
> Alecia
Hi Alecia,
What exactly did the vet do for you in ICU? Any tests? xrays?
bloodwork? Is your dog doing the projectile throwing up where the
food just comes right back out..looking more just like food that went
in? Or is he doing the stomach heaving before the throwing up part?
There is a difference in HOW he is throwing up. There is a condition
where dogs have a (I believe humans can have it to) where the muscle
that closes and opens for food is showing a defect or injury. I
can`t remember what its called.But the food will come back up in a
projectile manner. Surgery is an option for this condition or try
keep your dog confined for 1 hour after eating or some of the things
that are an option. Have you used any chemicals on or in him in since
this all started? ie:flea/tick wormers ect.Long term effect things?
~connie~
and a bunch of bulldogs
www.justbullies.com

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Messages in this topic (9)
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4b. Re: Puppy is still throwing up
Posted by: "connie" justbullies@hotmail.com bullienut
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 6:19 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Alecia Hammack <akhwbj1@...> wrote:
>
> They did xray's, bloodwork, and monitored him for those 48 hours. or
his spincter in his stomach was not closing correctly. > Alecia

I would confine him for about an hour after each meal. We treated some
cases like this at the vet clinic I worked at. We also had them add
water to their k*bble. Well, obviously that won`t apply :) But it
sounds like you and him are doing better.

~connie~
and a bunch of bulldogs
www.justbullies.com

Messages in this topic (9)
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5.1. Re: Ok, no more talk about bloat, how about Mountain Oysters?
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 6:46 pm ((PDT))

Hi Shefy & Snowy,

Not a dumb question at all! I wasn't sure what I had when I first
bought them......

Mountain oysters or buffalo fries or pork fries are all the same as
far as I know.

They are the testicles of male animals......yep, don't get too
grossed out....Dogs seem to really like them, if you can get by the
ick factor.......hehehehe.....

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, shefy gupta <shefy7@...> wrote:
>
> What are buffalo fries?
>
> Get used to dumb questions like this group, I'm a vegetarian :)
Snowy's a super carnivore :)
>
> Shefy and Snowy

Messages in this topic (29)
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5.2. Re: Ok, no more talk about bloat, how about Mountain Oysters?
Posted by: "shefy gupta" shefy7@yahoo.com shefy7
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 11:59 pm ((PDT))

Ohhh...I give snowy pizzles/bullysticks. these are cow's testes i think...

he loves them, keeps him busy and cleans his back teeth..

shefy and snowy

tottime47 <tottime@aol.com> wrote:
Hi Shefy & Snowy,

Not a dumb question at all! I wasn't sure what I had when I first
bought them......

Mountain oysters or buffalo fries or pork fries are all the same as
far as I know.

They are the testicles of male animals......yep, don't get too
grossed out....Dogs seem to really like them, if you can get by the
ick factor.......hehehehe.....

Carol, Charkee & Moli

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, shefy gupta wrote:
>
> What are buffalo fries?
>
> Get used to dumb questions like this group, I'm a vegetarian :)
Snowy's a super carnivore :)
>
> Shefy and Snowy

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Messages in this topic (29)
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6. Horse okay?
Posted by: "Deb" thegrittons@yahoo.com thegrittons
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 6:47 pm ((PDT))

A friend of mine today told me that I could have as much horse meat as
I wanted for free (she works at a wildlife place, and they get horses
donated to them to feed). I'm thinking - what a find! But, does
anyone else know much about feeding horse? Is that being their main
staple in their diet not a good idea? They have mostly been eating
chicken and beef and pork. Horse is going to be totally new to them.
I'm hoping its going to be just fine? What do you guys think?
Thanks!
~Deb~

Messages in this topic (1)
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7a. Re: AKC poll on raw feeding
Posted by: "Lynne Noll" linoleum5017@yahoo.com linoleum5017
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 7:35 pm ((PDT))

Thanks, Jane. I put in my two cents.

: )

"famtimes@blazenetme.net" <famtimes@blazenetme.net> wrote:
To take part in this poll on raw feeding (whether you feed raw or no)
Go to:

http://www.akc.org/ and look at the right hand side of the page.

Jane

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8a. possible problem
Posted by: "LaDawn" cldalley@verizon.net ladawndalley4
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 7:35 pm ((PDT))

Hi, I was on this list when I first started feeding my corgi/dachshund
mix raw, and everyone was so helpful!

Well, I have been feeding her raw now for over 2 years and never had
any problems with it. (she is about 4 years old) She has been very
healthy and happy.

Today, however, she is acting like something is stuck in her throat.
Every once in awhile she kind of retches or coughs, and she is
swallowing more often than normal, too. Just generally acting like
something is irritating her throat. This happened once before and I
just fed her and eating something else seemed to take care of the problem.

I tried that today, and she ate, but it has not solved the problem.
Now she is acting like she doesn't feel well. She doesn't want to
play or chase the cat, just lay around.

Of course, this has happened on a weekend. Otherwise, I would just
take her to my vet (who supports raw feeding—to a point). And if she
gets worse, I will take her tomorrow, but I'd really like to not take
her at all, or at least wait until Monday.

Any suggestions?

LaDawn

Messages in this topic (2)
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8b. Re: possible problem
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 7:40 pm ((PDT))

LaDawn,

Could be viral - kennel cough or somesuch?

Casey

Messages in this topic (2)
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9a. Re: Exactly what IS a knuckle bone?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 7:44 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Ya'll!
I'm not ButcherMan, but I did some Googling and came up with
this link that might be a little helpful;

http://www.aps.uoguelph.ca/~swatland/ch2_1.htm

And I also dl a power point presentation that has parts of the bovine
skeleton numbered and named that is also useful. Anyone wanting to take a
look at it can email me privately. You must have MS Office PP, sorry, thats
the way its formatted.

I did find a pic of knuckle bones;
http://bravosnaturalrearing.com/Images/Big/knuckles.jpg
raw marrow bones, cut up;
https://www.tallgrassbeef.com/ecommerce/catalog/imagemagic.php?img=images/MarrowBones_Raw.jpg&w=165&h=165&page=prod_info
listed as femurs;
http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/products/images/KnuckleBones.jpg
The knuckles are the ends when cut, marrow bones are the middle with the
knuckles cut off and the femurs are the whole bone.

Contrast to pics with cooked - 'sterilized' marrow bones with the gristle
stripped off;
http://www.agrofoods.net/pcat-gifs/products-small/005.jpg

Hind shank bones;
http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/products/images/KnuckleBones.jpg
*http://tinyurl.com/2n48fl

*This is an interesting page;
http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/004/T0279E/T0279E05.htm

lamb neck bones;
http://www.callicoma.com.au/images/HalfLambNeck_1_sml.jpg

Pork neck bones;
http://www.atiintl.com/Neck-Bones.gif

Nice pics of pork parts;
http://www.donaldsfinefoods.com/prod_list.php?id_brand=1&id_cat=3
http://www.atiintl.com/pork.htm

HTH
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

In a message dated 11/3/2007 10:14:23 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,

> Chriso75@AOL.COM <Chriso75%40AOL.COM> writes:
>
> I suspect this is a job for...ButcherMan!
>
> Hopefully he can enlarge Internet charts also.
>
> Ann and Norman (Portuguese Water Dog)
> San Francisco Peninsula, CA, USA
>
> "Never underestimate the warmth of a cold nose." <http://www.aol.com>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
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9b. Re: Exactly what IS a knuckle bone?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 8:45 pm ((PDT))

Giselle <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
>> I did find a pic of knuckle bones;
> http://bravosnaturalrearing.com/Images/Big/knuckles.jpg
*****
I don't think the issue is knowing what they look like, it's more
where are they when they're part of the cow.

>> http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/products/images/KnuckleBones.jpg
> The knuckles are the ends when cut, marrow bones are the middle
with the
> knuckles cut off and the femurs are the whole bone.
*****
So-- The knuckle is a joint between what and what? The joint
between some bone and the femur, then the femur and some bone. What
bones are these that the femur is attached to at top and bottom that
produces two (count 'em two) similar joints? Are you saying the
knuckle bone is the hock? If the hock is one of the joints (the
lower one perhaps) what is the upper joint? Or is the hock the
upper point and the pastern is the lower joint?

I still don't get it.
This might be a good example of why knowing the name for everything
is more effort than it's worth.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (9)
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10a. Re: Is small hen OK to feed....?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 8:17 pm ((PDT))

"shefy7" <shefy7@...> wrote:
Snowy is back to normal! His gums are looking better
> than ever and his teeth are super white.
*****
This is great! It's what whole bone is all about.

I've been giving him lots of
> ham bones,which are really good for cleaning teeth btw...
*****
Are these ham bones cooked bones? Or raw bones from the uppper
leg/haunch of a pig. Cooked bones are not a good idea, regardless
of how delighted you are with Snowy's white teeth. Raw bones--raw
meaty bones--do the job just as well, with less danger of busted
teeth or shattered bone.

> I saw little packages of what looked like a chicken at safeway
today.
> It said small gaming hen on there and 8% water or something (I'm
> vegetarian remember so I haven't a clue about meat...) I'm
wondering
> if things like this are OK to feed as a meal?
*****
These are game hens ("gaming hens" sounds like some advertisement
for Reno or the Indian casinos!) which are a smaller breed of same
old chicken, and younger even than "ordinary" chickens. Here in
Sacramento Safeway's got them on sale for $1.69/lb which is
outrageous for weensy chickens BUT if you can overlook the price per
pound they'd probably be very nice indeed for Snowy. Occasionally
when Safeway blows them out for .99/lb I buy a few for my border
collie to share with the cat.

I know this is considered a gorge meal and
> he only needs 1/2lb./day to maintain his weight. So I would skip a
day
> and then feed him again?
*****
Yes, this would be a fine plan.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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10b. Re: Is small hen OK to feed....?
Posted by: "shefy gupta" shefy7@yahoo.com shefy7
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 11:59 pm ((PDT))

Of course they are raw bones :)

I wonder what he will do with the whole chicken..I might have to charge my camcorder...

Thanks for the info. Chris!

Shefy and Snowy

costrowski75 <Chriso75@AOL.COM> wrote:
"shefy7" wrote:
Snowy is back to normal! His gums are looking better
> than ever and his teeth are super white.
*****
This is great! It's what whole bone is all about.

I know this is considered a gorge meal and
> he only needs 1/2lb./day to maintain his weight. So I would skip a
day
> and then feed him again?
*****
Yes, this would be a fine plan.
Chris O

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Messages in this topic (3)
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11. 5 dogs New to Raw Two Weeks
Posted by: "Stephanie" Sgagos@aol.com sgagos69
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 9:38 pm ((PDT))

Hi, everyone! Well I've enjoyed lurking for a while while
I've made my way through the first two weeks of raw feeding.
I have three beagles, a chihuahua and a black springer mix
(the larger of the dogs).
So far the beagles (Minnie, Max and Delilah, mommy and kids) are
having a ball, even though their teeth are pretty bad and one of them
hardly has any teeth, they go to town every time I feed them. They
are using their neck muscles, their paws, it is all very exciting.
The chihuahua, Gizmo (the oldest, about 12 years old) likes it but
has difficulty with the bones, has diarrhea and has had a few
accidents in the house since switching him. He doesn't take a bigger
piece and work on it yet and he won't take a bone and eat it either.
So I guess I'll have to settle for a little bone in few pieces of
meat.
The springer mix is not enjoying it at all. I'm having the most
difficulty with her. I give her a leg, she takes it and drops it on
the ground. I give her a piece of chicken, she walks away with it and
spits it out. If it has bone in it she might eat it. She's hardly
eating, well at least not the amount she should be eating. She likes
gizzards, bone by itself and some pieces of chicken with bone like I
said. But I feel like she's not getting enough meat. She is totally
disinterested, doesn't seem to be salivating when the food comes out,
nothing. I've tried giving her food with the others around and
without. I so want her to take a big piece and go out in the yard
and rip it up, but that seems far away even as she sees others doing
it around her.
This is what they've been eating for the past two weeks:
chicken thighs
chicken breast with half a chicken back each for the bigger dogs backs
sardines, cold water fish, a couple of pieces each (1-2 times in the
week, is that correct? How much is enough?)
chicken leg quarters (my person favorite)
This week I added an egg, but I may not be able to afford one egg per
dog a day (is that how much they should eat?)

I'm also concerned about their stool. It's hard to keep track of what
they are pooping since we let them out in the yard. Every time I see
them pooping, I run out there, like a loony person and go to examine
it, but by the time I get there I have trouble finding it. I'm
starting to thing it's diarrhea and it's absorbing into the ground.
How can I keep missing it! Too funny. So I'll have to keep trying to
catch them in the act, it's a big yard and I'm obviously not fast
enough. I've also heard some stomach noises that sounded like they
might have diarrhea.

Well I think that's enough background. Thanks in advance.
Stephanie in New Jersey

Messages in this topic (1)
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12. Pregnancy question again
Posted by: "diannem200400" diannem200400@yahoo.com diannem200400
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 11:59 pm ((PDT))

Didn't get any response the first time and I really value your
opinions. My questions are: Is there a limit to how much beef kidney
I can feed a pregnant bitch; and, is there any problem with feeding
Natural Balance lamb and rice roll for those times when she just will
not eat anything else? Thanks,

Dianne M.

Messages in this topic (1)
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13a. Re: goat (was How large is a gorge meal?
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 11:59 pm ((PDT))

Hi Shefy,

I get goat legs at Asian or Middle Eastern markets, as well as other
parts of goat, too.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, shefy gupta <shefy7@...> wrote:
> where did you ever find a goat leg two times the size of his
head?!!?!

Messages in this topic (8)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12234

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Pancreatitis, diarrhea, antibiotic side effects
From: Patty Linden
1b. Re: Pancreatitis, diarrhea, antibiotic side effects
From: Sandee Lee
1c. Re: Pancreatitis, diarrhea, antibiotic side effects
From: Casey Post
1d. Re: Pancreatitis, diarrhea, antibiotic side effects
From: Patty Linden
1e. Re: Pancreatitis, diarrhea, antibiotic side effects
From: Patty Linden
1f. Re: Pancreatitis, diarrhea, antibiotic side effects
From: Sandee Lee
1g. Re: Pancreatitis, diarrhea, antibiotic side effects
From: Sandee Lee
1h. Re: Pancreatitis, diarrhea, antibiotic side effects
From: Patty Linden
1i. Re: Pancreatitis, diarrhea, antibiotic side effects
From: ginny wilken
1j. Re: Pancreatitis, diarrhea, antibiotic side effects
From: Patty Linden

2a. Re: Puppy is still throwing up
From: connie

3a. Re: QUESTION ABOUT EGGS
From: Yasuko herron

4a. Re: Feeding the Senior Dog
From: Sandee Lee

5a. Re: How large is a gorge meal?
From: Yasuko herron
5b. Re: How large is a gorge meal?
From: shefy gupta

6a. Re: Our first day! Yay!
From: Yasuko herron
6b. Re: Our first day! Yay!
From: shefy gupta

7a. Re: Ok, no more talk about bloat, how about Mountain Oysters?
From: Yasuko herron
7b. Re: Ok, no more talk about bloat, how about Mountain Oysters?
From: shefy gupta

8. Deer Heads,Antlers
From: gusmyhairyboy

9. Is small hen OK to feed....?
From: shefy7

10a. Just started feeding raw
From: Heidi
10b. Re: Just started feeding raw
From: Sandee Lee
10c. Re: Just started feeding raw
From: Heidi

11. raw/calcium/phosphorus
From: beaulah_2001us

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Pancreatitis, diarrhea, antibiotic side effects
Posted by: "Patty Linden" pattykat3@yahoo.com pattykat3
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 12:34 pm ((PDT))

Hi--I started my pom (he is 13 lb.) on a raw fed diet about a month ago. Since I adopted my little guy 3 years ago, he has had 3 episodes in the hospital with pancreatitis. Two years ago, my vet switched him from his Science Diet kibble to Hills Rx duck formula, in the can--telling me that he was not able to process chicken, turkey, or beef protein. At the same time he prescribed an antibiotic (Metronitazol or Flagyl). The poor thing has been on that antibiotic for almost a year and a half now--I was told it would stop his diarrhea. Of course, I stopped the antibiotic when I started reading about raw food, etc. and began his new diet a month ago. When Mica started the raw food , I started him on chicken--and he seemed to do quite well after a while. His stools firmed up, were less in quantity, he seemed to feel better--everything I have read that was supposed to happen. Then, after about 2 weeks, I made the mistake of giving him some chicken liver--I think it was a
whole piece of liver (way too much, I'm sure). He immediately began having very runny, dark black stools. Following that, he seemed to loose his appetite for chicken--seemed very hungry, begged for food, but refused any chicken I gave him. I then began feeding him some large turkey necks--which he seemed to love chewing and working on for a long time. Following about a week of the turkey, he again stopped eating (I wouldn't feed him for a day, offer either turkey or chicken, and he wanted nothing to do with it), and along with very loose stools. Last week I offered him a big chunk of beef--no bones, just meat--thinking he was getting too much bone, not enough meat. That was followed by days of very runny, black diarrhea. Since then, I have (after another day of fasting), offered him a ground meatball (turkey) with a supplement called GI Support mixed in. The supplement contains (among other things) Slippery Elm Bark, acidophilus, alfalfa, pepsin, papain, bromelain.
I was wondering if anyone else has had similar problems trying to feed a dog whose pancreas may not be functioning completely normally--and also, if I am doing the right thing by giving him a probiotic, in an attempt to perhaps restore the flora in his digestive tract that the long period on an antibiotic probably upset.

Any suggestions (other than taking him back to the vet) anyone could give me would be very much appreciated.
:-) Patty

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Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Pancreatitis, diarrhea, antibiotic side effects
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 1:44 pm ((PDT))

Patty,

Did they ever discover what was causing the pancreatitis....diabetes, EPI,
etc? That might be something you want to look into so you can treat
whatever disease process is causing this.

Other than that, I would get him on a good pancreatic enzyme, feed small
meals, low fat until you get this under control. There's been a lot of talk
about feeding dogs with pancreatic issues. Maybe you can get some help from
these past discussions....
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/122181
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/122224
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/91117
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/60393
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/88618

And BTW, Flagyl is nasty stuff with a huge array of adverse reactions,
including diarrhea. I don't know why vets use this stuff! Ugh.....

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Patty Linden" <pattykat3@yahoo.com>

> I was wondering if anyone else has had similar problems trying to feed a
dog whose pancreas may not be functioning completely normally--and also, if
I am doing the right thing by giving him a probiotic, in an attempt to
perhaps restore the flora in his digestive tract that the long period on an
antibiotic probably upset.
>
> Any suggestions (other than taking him back to the vet) anyone could give
me would be very much appreciated.
> :-) Patty

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: Pancreatitis, diarrhea, antibiotic side effects
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 2:10 pm ((PDT))

> Did they ever discover what was causing the pancreatitis....diabetes, EPI,
> etc? That might be something you want to look into so you can treat
> whatever disease process is causing this.

Yeah, I have to ask how this diagnosis was made as well (for pancreatitis).
These episodes sound more like acute manifestations of a chronic condition
and one that needs to be diagnosed. Of course, there are all sorts of
possibilities - EPI, SIBO, etc. that leap to mind, but whatever it is, it
needs to be found and dealt with. If your vet isn't up for the task, find
one that is.

Casey

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

1d. Re: Pancreatitis, diarrhea, antibiotic side effects
Posted by: "Patty Linden" pattykat3@yahoo.com pattykat3
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 2:59 pm ((PDT))

Sandee--Thank you so much for your response. I read all of the archived emails you included. Viokase seems to be a pancreatic enzyme many use. Prior to starting this diet, I read in several places about a pancreatic enzyme called "FloraZyme LP powder (recommended by Dr. DeHaan, a vet in Minnesota). I subsequently bought some, but had not used it yet. I wonder if this would be considered "prescription strength". It contains such enzymes as Protease, Amylase, Lipase, Cellulase (all preceeded by the word "Fungal"), Pancreas Concentrate, and 2 probiotics).

Regarding what caused his pancreatitis--all I know is that the vet told me he must have gotten into some fatty foods. When I first adopted him, he had been found wandering the streets, apparently had been attacked by some other animals, and had to have surgery to cut off dead flesh from him wounded rear. They thought he had been walking around for several days like that from the appearance of his wound. It was about a month after I took him home that his first attack of pancreatitis occurred.

I will put him on several small meals during the day along with the FloraZyme. I notice one person recommended using Mylanta for a gassy stomach. He has had a lot of gas, and I think has been uncomfortable with it--Do you think Mylanta is a good idea? And--I wonder how much?

Thank you again--this has been a worry for so long. I am so glad I have found a place to ask questions, for which I have not--up until now--found any answers.

:-) Patty

Sandee Lee <rlee@plix.com> wrote: Patty,

Did they ever discover what was causing the pancreatitis....diabetes, EPI,
etc? That might be something you want to look into so you can treat
whatever disease process is causing this.

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Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

1e. Re: Pancreatitis, diarrhea, antibiotic side effects
Posted by: "Patty Linden" pattykat3@yahoo.com pattykat3
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 3:00 pm ((PDT))

Casey--Thank you for your reply. He was initially determined to have pancreatitis after having a complete blood panel that showed highly elevated pancreatic enzymes. An xray of his stomach also showed extreme irritation. Each of the other episodes also showed highly elevated pancreatic enzymes in his blood. This past winter, he showed a very high elevation of his liver enzymes, and my vet scheduled an ultrasound to check his liver for such a possibility as cancer. His ultrasound showed a very healthy liver. I was told that disturbances with the pancreas can effect the liver, and that could have been the explantion for the high liver enzymes. His last blood check (several months ago) was excellent. That is all I know for now. I guess I will just try giving him a pancreatic enzyme with his food, feed several small meals per day, and see if that helps. If not, I will try to find another vet.
:-) Patty

Casey Post <mikken@neo.rr.com> wrote:

> Did they ever discover what was causing the pancreatitis....diabetes, EPI,
> etc? That might be something you want to look into so you can treat
> whatever disease process is causing this.

Yeah, I have to ask how this diagnosis was made as well (for pancreatitis).
These episodes sound more like acute manifestations of a chronic condition
and one that needs to be diagnosed. Of course, there are all sorts of
possibilities - EPI, SIBO, etc. that leap to mind, but whatever it is, it
needs to be found and dealt with. If your vet isn't up for the task, find
one that is.

Casey

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Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

1f. Re: Pancreatitis, diarrhea, antibiotic side effects
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 3:16 pm ((PDT))

Patty,

One of the main adverse effects of Flagyl is liver damage!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Patty Linden" <pattykat3@yahoo.com>

> Casey--Thank you for your reply. He was initially determined to have
pancreatitis after having a complete blood panel that showed highly elevated
pancreatic enzymes. An xray of his stomach also showed extreme irritation.
Each of the other episodes also showed highly elevated pancreatic enzymes in
his blood. This past winter, he showed a very high elevation of his liver
enzymes, and my vet scheduled an ultrasound to check his liver for such a
possibility as cancer. His ultrasound showed a very healthy liver. I was
told that disturbances with the pancreas can effect the liver, and that
could have been the explantion for the high liver enzymes.

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

1g. Re: Pancreatitis, diarrhea, antibiotic side effects
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 3:41 pm ((PDT))

Patty,

I am not certain about that enzyme product. I doubt it is prescription
strength and sounds like it is mainly plant based, although it does contain
protease and a pancreas concentrate. It might be worth a try....if it
doesn't work, you can always get the Viokase.

Not sure about the Mylanta...I know that Karen has used it with her ill
dogs, which have been many as she adopts the sick and unwanted!! The gas
may subside with use of the enzymes. I really don't know.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Patty Linden" <pattykat3@yahoo.com>

> Sandee--Thank you so much for your response. I read all of the archived
emails you included. Viokase seems to be a pancreatic enzyme many use.
Prior to starting this diet, I read in several places about a pancreatic
enzyme called "FloraZyme LP powder (recommended by Dr. DeHaan, a vet in
Minnesota). I subsequently bought some, but had not used it yet. I wonder
if this would be considered "prescription strength". It contains such
enzymes as Protease, Amylase, Lipase, Cellulase (all preceeded by the word
"Fungal"), Pancreas Concentrate, and 2 probiotics).
>
> Regarding what caused his pancreatitis--all I know is that the vet told me
he must have gotten into some fatty foods. When I first adopted him, he had
been found wandering the streets, apparently had been attacked by some other
animals, and had to have surgery to cut off dead flesh from him wounded
rear. They thought he had been walking around for several days like that
from the appearance of his wound. It was about a month after I took him
home that his first attack of pancreatitis occurred.
>
> I will put him on several small meals during the day along with the
FloraZyme. I notice one person recommended using Mylanta for a gassy
stomach. He has had a lot of gas, and I think has been uncomfortable with
it--Do you think Mylanta is a good idea? And--I wonder how much?

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

1h. Re: Pancreatitis, diarrhea, antibiotic side effects
Posted by: "Patty Linden" pattykat3@yahoo.com pattykat3
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 4:39 pm ((PDT))

Sandee Lee <rlee@plix.com> wrote: Patty,

One of the main adverse effects of Flagyl is liver damage!
---------------------------------------------------

Unbelievable!! One of the reasons I am reluctant to go back to the vet.

Patty

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Patty Linden" <pattykat3@yahoo.com>

> Casey--Thank you for your reply. He was initially determined to have
pancreatitis after having a complete blood panel that showed highly elevated
pancreatic enzymes. An xray of his stomach also showed extreme irritation.
Each of the other episodes also showed highly elevated pancreatic enzymes in
his blood. This past winter, he showed a very high elevation of his liver
enzymes, and my vet scheduled an ultrasound to check his liver for such a
possibility as cancer. His ultrasound showed a very healthy liver. I was
told that disturbances with the pancreas can effect the liver, and that
could have been the explantion for the high liver enzymes.

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Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

1i. Re: Pancreatitis, diarrhea, antibiotic side effects
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 5:17 pm ((PDT))

On Nov 3, 2007, at 2:26 PM, Patty Linden wrote:

>
> Regarding what caused his pancreatitis--all I know is that the vet
> told me he must have gotten into some fatty foods. When I first
> adopted him, he had been found wandering the streets, apparently
> had been attacked by some other animals, and had to have surgery to
> cut off dead flesh from him wounded rear. They thought he had been
> walking around for several days like that from the appearance of
> his wound. It was about a month after I took him home that his
> first attack of pancreatitis occurred.
>

Just curious if he had been given distemper or other vaccines during
his recovery period... Distemper in particular can mess up digestive
processes for life, and, IMO, is one of the primary causes of chronic
intolerance, chronic loose stools, frequent vomiting, etc.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

1j. Re: Pancreatitis, diarrhea, antibiotic side effects
Posted by: "Patty Linden" pattykat3@yahoo.com pattykat3
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 5:20 pm ((PDT))

Sandee Lee <rlee@plix.com> wrote: Patty,

I am not certain about that enzyme product. I doubt it is prescription
strength and sounds like it is mainly plant based, although it does contain
protease and a pancreas concentrate. It might be worth a try....if it
doesn't work, you can always get the Viokase.
------------------------------------------------------
Sandee--thanks again.

Yes, it is mostly plant based. I noticed that Karen had recommended Biocase (from Revival Animal Health) as being the same strength as Viokase, and said it was excellent. I think I will order that over the Internet.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fatty food doesn't cause pancreatitis...it could aggravate an already
diseased pancreas. There are several disease processes plus some drugs,
toxins and vaccinations that are the root cause.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Mica did have several drugs (plus, of course anathesia) during and following his surgery. In addition, he had to have 6 teeth pulled on one side about a month after the surgery (periodontal disease), which also involved more anathesia and antibiotics. It was not too long after that that he had his first episode of pancreatitis.

---------------------------------------------------

Poor little guy...sounds
like he definitely had some rough times and is very fortunate to have found
you! :)

--------------------------------------------------
Yes, thanks, Sandee. And I am equally as lucky--he is such a sweet little dog.
:-) Patty

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Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Puppy is still throwing up
Posted by: "connie" justbullies@hotmail.com bullienut
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 1:37 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Alecia Hammack <akhwbj1@...> wrote:
I don't think we can give him a break because he acts like he is
starving now. We are so new to this and just
> need help. Thanks so much for responding.
>
> Alecia
Hi Alecia,
What exactly did the vet do for you in ICU? Any tests? xrays?
bloodwork? Is your dog doing the projectile throwing up where the
food just comes right back out..looking more just like food that went
in? Or is he doing the stomach heaving before the throwing up part?
There is a difference in HOW he is throwing up. There is a condition
where dogs have a (I believe humans can have it to) where the muscle
that closes and opens for food is showing a defect or injury. I
can`t remember what its called.But the food will come back up in a
projectile manner. Surgery is an option for this condition or try
keep your dog confined for 1 hour after eating or some of the things
that are an option. Have you used any chemicals on or in him in since
this all started? ie:flea/tick wormers ect.Long term effect things?
~connie~
and a bunch of bulldogs
www.justbullies.com

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: QUESTION ABOUT EGGS
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 1:37 pm ((PDT))

>I was> wondering how most of you feed eggs to your dogs

I feed Raw Egg 2 times a week.Usually on Fish meal day. It also comes with pork kidney and liver which she does not eat if fed as is.

so,her one of the meal is Fish,Egg andpork kidney and liver.

This way,she gubbles down the pork liver and kidney in a second while she strike on me not to eat it if it was without Egg.Probably pork organs smell stronger for her and not too appetising..To my nose,pork organs definitely has strong smell so,I imagine she smell more than me..

yassy

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Messages in this topic (18)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: Feeding the Senior Dog
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 2:40 pm ((PDT))

Hi Dinah,

While certain veggies can cause problems by suppressing thyroid function,
blocking calcium uptake, aggravating arthritis and yeast, probably a few
greens will not be harmful...as long as you are adding them to a diet that
contains enough meat and other necessary ingredients and not using them to
"reduce protein".

I'm not quite certain why vets are of the opinion that protein needs to be
decreased in older dogs or that adding carbohydrates will be beneficial.
They must not keep up on current studies or missed a few classes while in
college! :))

Merck (which is the Bible of veterinary medicine) states....
"The carbohydrates added to pet foods are mainly in the form of
polysaccharides (starch and cellulose), disaccharides (sucrose and lactose),
and monosaccharides (glucose and fructose). Carbohydrates are a less
expensive source of energy than fat or protein. In dogs, there appears to be
no dietary requirement for carbohydrate."

In other words, they are fed because they are cheap not because they have
any benefit...the pet food manufacturers agree!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Dinah" <dinah_kay@msn.com>

I
understand that veggies are part of the prey model, but could some one
let me know what is wrong with adding a few green veggies? Will it
cause any problems, or is it just wasteful to feed a few veggies on
the side while keeping up with everything else?

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: How large is a gorge meal?
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 2:59 pm ((PDT))

I don't feed gorge meal every time i feed but rather,once in amonth since i am trying to get her use to bigger portion of meal all at once with this second round.

Last Halloween day,I fed 5lb of Goat Leg,andI took it out when she ate roughly 1lb of it.
I traded her Beef Rib bone that I left meat for human,bone for her for that night' dinner,so,she had plenty of meat(15oz) and about half of Beef rib because she was stuffed:-P

Every time the door bell rang,she tries look at who was coming by running closer to pen panel but soon go back to goat meat as if worried it would dissapear if left it alone too long,it was funny. She ripped ripped with paw stay on meat and tried dragging it by grabbing bits of meat but due to weight,she was wabbly andmy husband and I were laughing loud.

I am not comfortable giving her chance to gnaw on leg bone so,I will take bone away if it ate close enough to naked bone someday.

this Goat leg wasprobably 2 times bigger than my dog's head.

It was real tiring meal for my dog and it was very amusing meal for us to watch.

Following days,she ate little less than usual.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: How large is a gorge meal?
Posted by: "shefy gupta" shefy7@yahoo.com shefy7
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 3:58 pm ((PDT))

wow, that is so funny yassy! snowy did the same thing when i gave him his first ham bone last week. very protective....

where did you ever find a goat leg two times the size of his head?!!?!

i would LOVE to give snowy something like that! i'm sure he would too..hehe..

thanks!
shefy and snowy

Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com> wrote:
I don't feed gorge meal every time i feed but rather,once in amonth since i am trying to get her use to bigger portion of meal all at once with this second round.

Last Halloween day,I fed 5lb of Goat Leg,andI took it out when she ate roughly 1lb of it.
I traded her Beef Rib bone that I left meat for human,bone for her for that night' dinner,so,she had plenty of meat(15oz) and about half of Beef rib because she was stuffed:-P

Every time the door bell rang,she tries look at who was coming by running closer to pen panel but soon go back to goat meat as if worried it would dissapear if left it alone too long,it was funny. She ripped ripped with paw stay on meat and tried dragging it by grabbing bits of meat but due to weight,she was wabbly andmy husband and I were laughing loud.

I am not comfortable giving her chance to gnaw on leg bone so,I will take bone away if it ate close enough to naked bone someday.

this Goat leg wasprobably 2 times bigger than my dog's head.

It was real tiring meal for my dog and it was very amusing meal for us to watch.

Following days,she ate little less than usual.

yassy

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6a. Re: Our first day! Yay!
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 2:59 pm ((PDT))

> The calculation I use is 30 (lbs) x .02 (which is 2%) x 16 ounces. With that calculation I get 9.6 ounces which I've been rounding up to 10 ounces/day for a 30 lb. dog.

I think that is correct. And it is ok to round up too. But 30lb isideal weight of your dog? You better use ideal weight to calculate and2% is guideline only so,you can up it or down it according to yourdogs appearence/activity etc.

>.8 oz seems reasonable for a 20 lb dog.

Well,if 20lb were ideal weight and if you use 2% intake,it comes out 6.4oz (0.4lb). and you can feed little less than half pound or feed half pound andsee how your dog does.

calculation-wise,you doing good.

yassy

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6b. Re: Our first day! Yay!
Posted by: "shefy gupta" shefy7@yahoo.com shefy7
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 3:58 pm ((PDT))

That seems right, I give Snowy 8oz/day and he's 20lbs. He's really energetic though. He goes to daycare all day like 2-3 times a week. I give him more snacks as well too though, like liver and tripe and stuff I don't even know the names of...

Shefy and Snowy

Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com> wrote:
> The calculation I use is 30 (lbs) x .02 (which is 2%) x 16 ounces. With that calculation I get 9.6 ounces which I've been rounding up to 10 ounces/day for a 30 lb. dog.

I think that is correct. And it is ok to round up too. But 30lb isideal weight of your dog? You better use ideal weight to calculate and2% is guideline only so,you can up it or down it according to yourdogs appearence/activity etc.

>.8 oz seems reasonable for a 20 lb dog.

Well,if 20lb were ideal weight and if you use 2% intake,it comes out 6.4oz (0.4lb). and you can feed little less than half pound or feed half pound andsee how your dog does.

calculation-wise,you doing good.

yassy

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7a. Re: Ok, no more talk about bloat, how about Mountain Oysters?
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 2:59 pm ((PDT))

>I added buffalo fries to normal meals for the boys and neither of them
had digestive upset

Hi,Andrea.Thank you for your reply. Next time when I needed to order buffalo,I try on that and see how she does.

yassy

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7b. Re: Ok, no more talk about bloat, how about Mountain Oysters?
Posted by: "shefy gupta" shefy7@yahoo.com shefy7
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 3:58 pm ((PDT))

What are buffalo fries?

Get used to dumb questions like this group, I'm a vegetarian :) Snowy's a super carnivore :)

Shefy and Snowy

Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I added buffalo fries to normal meals for the boys and neither of them
had digestive upset

Hi,Andrea.Thank you for your reply. Next time when I needed to order buffalo,I try on that and see how she does.

yassy

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8. Deer Heads,Antlers
Posted by: "gusmyhairyboy" gusmyhairyboy@charter.net gusmyhairyboy
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 3:00 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Suzie G. here

Does anyone here feed deer heads,antlers?

Messages in this topic (1)
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9. Is small hen OK to feed....?
Posted by: "shefy7" shefy7@yahoo.com shefy7
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 3:00 pm ((PDT))

hi everyone :) Snowy is back to normal! His gums are looking better
than ever and his teeth are super white. I've been giving him lots of
ham bones,which are really good for cleaning teeth btw...

I've been looking around for places to buy good meat, meaning no
processing or preserving or chemicals. So far I've only gotten
nature's variety ham/turkey/lamb bones at a local pet store. I've
gotten some big chunks of meat from safeway, like turkey quarters and
pork shoulder boneless. i'm still searching for a good butcher near.

I saw little packages of what looked like a chicken at safeway today.
It said small gaming hen on there and 8% water or something (I'm
vegetarian remember so I haven't a clue about meat...) I'm wondering
if things like this are OK to feed as a meal? I think the total weight
was 1 pound for each hen. I know this is considered a gorge meal and
he only needs 1/2lb./day to maintain his weight. So I would skip a day
and then feed him again?

Snowy is 1.5 years old, 20 lbs. (want to keep him at this weight), and
full of energy!

Thanks for your help everyone! We're hopping on the raw bandwagon!

Shefy and Snowy

Messages in this topic (1)
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10a. Just started feeding raw
Posted by: "Heidi" dolphin_6876@yahoo.com dolphin_6876
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 3:58 pm ((PDT))

Hi. My name is Heidi and I just started feeding my dogs and cats raw
about a few days ago. I have four dogs, 3 lab mixes ands a 5 mo old
shih tzu puppy. 2 of my labs have taken very well to their new diet and
absolutely LOVE it! The puppy loves it too! As a matter of facxt, I
think he's eating too much of it. No problems with those three, but my
one lab mix won't eat the chicken raw. We switched from a cooked food
and kibble and she seems to be very picky about this new diet, unless
it's deer meat and I've used all I've had and am having trouble finding
more at a reasonable price. Does anyone have any suggestions as to how
to get her to eat her chicken raw and not cooked? Would it be bad to
slowly switch her from cooked to raw by decreasing the amount of time
it's cooked everyday?
Thanks in advance!
Heidi

Messages in this topic (6)
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10b. Re: Just started feeding raw
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 4:11 pm ((PDT))

Hi Heidi,

Silly dog...doesn't she know Labs are supposed to eat *everything*? :))

There are a few tricks you could try before resorting to cooking. Raw
chicken is quite bland so warming it (in a bag in warm water) and slicing
into it will bring out the odor. You can also sprinkle with parmesan cheese
and smash some down in the slices. Try that and see if she is more inclined
to eat it.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Heidi" <dolphin_6876@yahoo.com>

my
one lab mix won't eat the chicken raw. We switched from a cooked food
and kibble and she seems to be very picky about this new diet, unless
it's deer meat and I've used all I've had and am having trouble finding
more at a reasonable price. Does anyone have any suggestions as to how
to get her to eat her chicken raw and not cooked? Would it be bad to
slowly switch her from cooked to raw by decreasing the amount of time
it's cooked everyday?

Messages in this topic (6)
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10c. Re: Just started feeding raw
Posted by: "Heidi" dolphin_6876@yahoo.com dolphin_6876
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 4:39 pm ((PDT))

Thanks...I'll try that in the morning:)
Heidi

Messages in this topic (6)
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11. raw/calcium/phosphorus
Posted by: "beaulah_2001us" beaulah_2001us@yahoo.com beaulah_2001us
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 5:21 pm ((PDT))

My holistic vet said she would keep our puppy on at least half canned
or kibble mixed with raw until she is 8 months old so that calcuim and
phosphorus levels are maintained and good bones are made.

Doesnt raw meaty bones do this on its own? If it doesnt is there
another way I can give her a good balance of these and know she is
getting all she needs of both of these minerals?

Sandy

Messages in this topic (1)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12233

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: How large is a gorge meal?
From: jennifer_hell
1b. Re: How large is a gorge meal?
From: costrowski75

2a. Re: Feeding whole prey in close quarters???
From: In The Nick Of Time Animal Rescue

3a. Re: still swallowing whole
From: connie

4a. Re: QUESTION ABOUT EGGS
From: harrynala
4b. Re: QUESTION ABOUT EGGS
From: harrynala
4c. Re: QUESTION ABOUT EGGS
From: katkellm
4d. Re: QUESTION ABOUT EGGS
From: Scott Baker
4e. Re: QUESTION ABOUT EGGS
From: cynthiashankman
4f. Re: QUESTION ABOUT EGGS
From: costrowski75
4g. Re: QUESTION ABOUT EGGS
From: costrowski75
4h. Re: QUESTION ABOUT EGGS
From: costrowski75

5a. Re: Feeding the Senior Dog
From: mikkeny
5b. Re: Feeding the Senior Dog
From: costrowski75
5c. Re: Feeding the Senior Dog
From: Dinah

6a. Exactly what IS a knuckle bone?
From: totaly_his
6b. Re: Exactly what IS a knuckle bone?
From: Anntiga@aol.com
6c. Re: Exactly what IS a knuckle bone?
From: costrowski75
6d. Re: Exactly what IS a knuckle bone?
From: costrowski75
6e. Re: Exactly what IS a knuckle bone?
From: Anntiga@aol.com
6f. Re: Exactly what IS a knuckle bone?
From: costrowski75
6g. Re: Exactly what IS a knuckle bone?
From: Anntiga@aol.com

7a. Re: Weatherwax Lassie Dogs Eating Raw Diet
From: costrowski75

8. Eggs for cats?
From: persephoneinfall

9a. Re: Puppy is still throwing up
From: Alecia Hammack

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: How large is a gorge meal?
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 6:31 am ((PDT))

> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "raven4519" <raven4519@> wrote:
> >
> I would
> > like him to feel truly full but am worried he would eat till he
> > exploded if I let him.
>

This is what works for us: I give Mandy stuff that is really hard to
eat (like meat that is hard to take off a bone). When she's not really
hungry anymore, she finds it too much hard work and stops. Lol!! I'm
pretty convinced that she would eat until she explodes if it was stuff
that's easy to eat.

Jennifer with Mandy

Messages in this topic (5)
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1b. Re: How large is a gorge meal?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 8:10 am ((PDT))

"raven4519" <raven4519@...> wrote:
I would
> like him to feel truly full but am worried he would eat till he
> exploded if I let him. Have given him about 3& 1/2 lbs at a time
> before and he still wanted more.
*****
If you want to feed to satiety, give your boy a full shoulder roast
or the greater part of a turkey and see what he does.

You may decide it ain't worth it, feeding to satiety. My 60lb golden
bitch easily eats through 10% body weight; my Lab clearly is not
fazed by big food; my foofoo golden eats slower than dial up internet
but even HE will pack in the chow well beyond three and half pounds.
So rarely do I worry about feeding them to their gluttonous
satisfaction.

I give them meals of engaging size and complication and usually the
difficulty factory takes the edge off their need to pork out.
Certainly these meals are large enough to warrant one if not two
subsequent no-meal days without them getting particularly nervy about
it.

A food obsessed dog is not healthy, just as no obsession is healthy.
If you really feel big ain't never gonna be big enough for him, don't
push it. Go for complicated instead and see if that helps.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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2a. Re: Feeding whole prey in close quarters???
Posted by: "In The Nick Of Time Animal Rescue" bygdawg318@yahoo.com bygdawg318
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 6:41 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "miensasis" <kpmnlm@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Everyone...
>
> For us feeding a whole deer carcass is
> not possible, but is there anyone that feeds smaller whole animals
> (like rabbits) inside their homes? Exactly how messy (i.e.
bloody)
> is it?

Nancy,

I feed 6 kitties and 2 large dogs whole prey as often as I can get
it. Actually, last night my dogs each had a whole rabbit (organs,
fur, and all), and the kitties each had half of a wood duck. My dogs
are messsssssssy eaters, so the best thing I've found is to feed
them in their crates. I line their crates with those "kindermats"
(the little mats kids take naps on at school) because they are the
perfect size and plastic so they are easily cleaned. After feeding
time I just take out the mats, wipe them down with vinegar and call
it day! As far as the kitties, I literally cover my kitchen floor
with a tarp (yes, my friends think I'm crazy lol). After they are
finished I just pick it up, spray it with vinegar and hose it off
outside. I hope this helps :)

Jeanne and Krewe

Messages in this topic (8)
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3a. Re: still swallowing whole
Posted by: "connie" justbullies@hotmail.com bullienut
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 7:09 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "delcaste" <delcaste@...> wrote:
>
> Hello, Connie thanks for your suggestions. I like to feed goat and
I
> hadn't thought of taking off the thick fat since she's always eaten
it.
>
> Silvina
>
Hey Silvia,
If I were you I would start over with this girl. What I did with my
gulper was mix ground with water so it is really sloppy so he
couldn`t gulp but had to half drink it. He gets chicken and rabbit
1/2`s now and I have to cut his beef and pork small like stew meat
size peices. Maybe add water to that to so she doesn`t gulp them all
at once either. I have a meat slicer and slice beef tongue into thin
strips for everyone as none of them can handle the tough meats like
that. He gets beef ribs for rec. bones. He probablly doesn`t get the
complete workout the others are (and should) But I know his diet is
great. I give him bully sticks a few times a week. Oh, and he also
gets ground tripe. I have always cut off the big hunks of fat off
anything as I believe that is a contibuter to pancreatis. And in the
wild they usually wouldn`t encounter such fatty meats. Most wild game
is lean. My dogs tend to get loose stools from it anyway. The water
thing in the bowl of food really works for me and Henry :)
~connie~
and a bunch of bulldogs
www.justbullies.com

Messages in this topic (23)
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4a. Re: QUESTION ABOUT EGGS
Posted by: "harrynala" michelle@synertex.co.uk harrynala
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 7:10 am ((PDT))

"ben" <ben1721@...> wrote:

> Sorry, not entirely related to the cooked vs raw egg issue, but I
was
> wondering how most of you feed eggs to your dogs.....If you give a
> whole egg, could it be a choking hazard? Thanks for your help!

Hi, I feed one egg a day each - I used to feed it whole and enjoyed
watching them roll it around first. They are apprehensive at first,
so I started them off with a cracked egg so they could get the idea,
then gradually a dented shell, then just whole - mine never attempted
to swallow it whole.

However, I don't do that anymore, I feed just the egg yolk separated
from the white, as I read somewhere that the egg white contains
avidin which has a reducing effect on the vitamin B5 that the yolk
contains. It isn't enough for concern, however I figure that it's
better for them to have the full whack of B5 that the yolk contains,
so out went the egg white (into meringues for us!!)

HTH
Michelle

Messages in this topic (17)
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4b. Re: QUESTION ABOUT EGGS
Posted by: "harrynala" michelle@synertex.co.uk harrynala
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 7:25 am ((PDT))

Sorry, I need to correct myself! It's biotin that egg yolk contains
(not B5, oops!) and the avidin in egg white strips biotin, hence why I
separate the egg yolks. Personal choice I guess.

Michelle

Messages in this topic (17)
________________________________________________________________________

4c. Re: QUESTION ABOUT EGGS
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 7:33 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "harrynala" <michelle@...> wrote:
> However, I don't do that anymore, I feed just the egg yolk separated
> from the white, as I read somewhere that the egg white contains
> avidin which has a reducing effect on the vitamin B5 that the yolk
> contains.

Hi Michelle,
Check out this post from Carrie.

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141967

So if you are tired of meringue pie, you can feed it to the dog.<g>
KathyM

Messages in this topic (17)
________________________________________________________________________

4d. Re: QUESTION ABOUT EGGS
Posted by: "Scott Baker" scottsbaker@gmail.com scottpsbaker
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 8:06 am ((PDT))

Do a bit more reading on eggs and Biotin. Yes this speaks of Humans but I
believe we can apply the same to dogs in this case

http://www.aeb.org/LearnMore/Eggcyclopedia/A.htm

*Biotin *

One of the B vitamins which plays an important role in cell metabolism and
the utilization of fats, proteins and carbohydrates. Biotin is present in
many foods including egg yolk and is synthesized by the body. Avidin, one of
the egg proteins, can combine with biotin and make it unavailable. However,
a human would have to eat 24 raw egg whites a day for biotin to be inhibited
by avidin. Heat inactivates the avidin and most eggs are served cooked. *-see
Avidin *

*Avidin *

A protein found in small amounts (about .05%) in egg albumen. Avidin is
inactivated by heat.

On 11/3/07, harrynala <michelle@synertex.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Sorry, I need to correct myself! It's biotin that egg yolk contains
> (not B5, oops!) and the avidin in egg white strips biotin, hence why I
> separate the egg yolks. Personal choice I guess.
>
> Michelle
> .
>
>
>

--
Scott

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (17)
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4e. Re: QUESTION ABOUT EGGS
Posted by: "cynthiashankman" ShankMa4@aol.com cynthiashankman
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 8:07 am ((PDT))

> > In fact in fact, I recommend you add bits of pork and beef and
> > whatever else you got while you are still in the chicken mode.
> >
> > Use chicken as a platform to build on, not jump off from.
> > Chris O
> >
>
> Chris...
>
> Thanks for the informative response. Your suggestion to look at
> chicken as a platform to build on is so helpful and makes perfect
sense!
>
> Nancy

Hi Nancy,
As a fellow beginner I want to pass a raw feeding insight on to
you ...Once you are confident with feeding chicken, and you move on to
other meats, it is helpful to realize that lots of meals will be
boneless, as in -- just meat meals. 80% meat, 10% bone, and 10% organ
makes for a whole lot of boneless meals. I want to pass this on to you
b/c after feeding chicken in the beginning, which contains bone, it can
be surprising to feed just meat. Just wanted to give a fellow beginner
a head's up!!!
Cindi

Messages in this topic (17)
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4f. Re: QUESTION ABOUT EGGS
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 8:26 am ((PDT))

"ben" <ben1721@...> wrote:>
> Sorry, not entirely related to the cooked vs raw egg issue,
*****
It is perfectly fine to start a new topic when you have a new topic to
discuss. Rather than posting a topic you fear may be unrelated, how
about just starting a new one altogether? I mean, you can certainly
tack a post on for the ride but starting your own thread makes it
easier for archive browsers. Mostly though, if you got questions, ask
them however you have to.

I was> wondering how most of you feed eggs to your dogs.
*****
I feed eggs when I remember to, which isn't often. For no reason other
than absentmindedness eggs tend to be peripheral in my dogs' diet. I
dole out them out an egg a dog and let the dogs handle the
deconstruction. I might dump an egg into a bowl of chopped green tripe
but probably not. Rarely do I feed meals into which an egg can be
blended.

You can feed eggs however it suits you to.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (17)
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4g. Re: QUESTION ABOUT EGGS
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 8:37 am ((PDT))

"harrynala" <michelle@...> wrote:
I feed just the egg yolk separated
> from the white, as I read somewhere that the egg white contains
> avidin which has a reducing effect on the vitamin B5 that the yolk
> contains.
*****
This is complete and utter nonsense. All the yolk (fat) plus all the
white (protein) plus all the shell (calcium and minerals) is a fine
fully nutritious food.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (17)
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4h. Re: QUESTION ABOUT EGGS
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 8:40 am ((PDT))

"harrynala" <michelle@...> wrote:
>
> Sorry, I need to correct myself! It's biotin that egg yolk contains
> (not B5, oops!) and the avidin in egg white strips biotin, hence why
I
> separate the egg yolks. Personal choice I guess.
*****
Personal choice based on misinformation. First thing is to fully
understand the issue, THEN make a decision.

To avoid the "my mind is made up, don't confuse me with the facts"
syndrome.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (17)
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5a. Re: Feeding the Senior Dog
Posted by: "mikkeny" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 7:24 am ((PDT))

>The recent cbcs came back
> with high protein levels, as well as high sodium and triglycerides.
> Nothing was off the charts high, but my vet had concern at my dogs age
> and the high protein.

<snip>

Dinah,

I'm with Sandee - this doesn't sound like a dietary tweaking is needed
here (except to get rid of that multivitamin - I looked it up and if
it's the one I found online with ginger, alfalfa, and cinnamon in it,
it needs to go).

Slightly high blood protein and sodium both point to mild dehydration
more than anything in my book. The triglycerides may be normal for
this dog, the result of odd supplements (we know that cinnamon may
reduce human triglycerides, but do we know what it does to canine
levels?), or a symptom of some other process (like hypothyroidism,
which can manifest as high triglycerides).

Unexplained lameness makes me think things like injury, tick borne
illness, etc.

Reducing protein intake for this dog would, imo, be a mistake.
Seniors (although 9.5 yrs. in a corgi isn't really "senior" in my
book) need protein to maintain their muscle mass.

FWIW.

Casey

Messages in this topic (5)
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5b. Re: Feeding the Senior Dog
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 7:54 am ((PDT))

"Dinah" <dinah_kay@...> wrote:
My corgi, who is 9 1/2 yrs
> old,
*****
Heck, this is hardly senior. Truth is, some dogs are senior at five
and some are spring chickens at 11. Age should not drive diet
decisions. Ability and results should.

he said that in a older
> dog I need to be concerned about the high protein level as well as
> sodium.
*****
A senior dogs needs high quality protein exactly as a youngster and
an adult does. I suspect that though he doesn't bug you about
feeding raw your vet is firmly old school in regards to seniors and
protein level. Simply put, he is incorrect. Insofar as dietary
protein goes, a species appropriate diet continues to be the gold
standard. No veggies unless and until your corgi is diagnosed with
final stages renal failure. Grains never are easier to digest than
animal protein and never provide appropriate nutrition.

> A typical meal for my guys is a boneless meal one day (with salmon
oil
> and Solid Gold multivitamin) and then a bone in meal the next. I
feed
> a mixture of beef, chicken, turkey, and occasionally pork and goat.
> Their bone in meal is generally a chicken leg quarter, while the
> boneless meat is a protein source other than chicken. I sometimes
> include a egg and or yogurt, but that is only every once and a
while.
*****
IMO the menu could use more red meat and less poultry and my guess is
the multi vitamin does more for your sense of duty than it does their
health (if the multi includes minerals I suggest you rethink your
product choice). Other than that, there is nothing I can see that
could be construed as inappropriately high protein levels.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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5c. Re: Feeding the Senior Dog
Posted by: "Dinah" dinah_kay@msn.com dinahkay78
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 12:08 pm ((PDT))

MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS!!!

Thanks everyone! Just FYI the lameness was a strained muscle since he
was trying to keep pace with my 2 and 3 yr old border collie mixes. He
has slowed down in the past year or so, just now starting to show his
age. I like feeding the multi-vitamin just to cover and things I am
missing since I don't have a lot of options for organs here. I
understand that veggies are part of the prey model, but could some one
let me know what is wrong with adding a few green veggies? Will it
cause any problems, or is it just wasteful to feed a few veggies on
the side while keeping up with everything else? Also for Chris they do
get red meat about 2 or 3 times a week. I am hoping to get some
venison soon, so then they would be getting more.

Thanks!!!

Messages in this topic (5)
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6a. Exactly what IS a knuckle bone?
Posted by: "totaly_his" totaly_his@yahoo.com totaly_his
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 8:07 am ((PDT))

Going on 4 weeks of raw feeding and everything is going very well. I bought a package of
beef neck bones that looks fairly large at the supermarket to give to my dog. Would this be
considered a knuckle bone? I don't wan't to give it to her if it is because I don't want to risk
her breaking a tooth. Is this bone one of the "good" bones to feed? Thanks for your help,
Jackie

Messages in this topic (7)
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6b. Re: Exactly what IS a knuckle bone?
Posted by: "Anntiga@aol.com" Anntiga@aol.com anntiga
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 8:30 am ((PDT))

Knuckle bones in four legged animals are the bones located where the
animal's "knee" would be, between the upper leg and the lower leg bones. They are
large, kind of roundish bones.

Knuckle bones are very hard. They can chip and/or break a dog's teeth.

IF you watch your dog very carefully and IF you know your dog will not try
to chew on the bone, the connective tissues of the knuckle bones are great for
the dogs to eat. This would not be for a meal. this list does not
recommend feeding knuckle bones.

Here is a link to a picture of the anatomy of a cow:
_http://www.rescuecritters.com/1587799014.jpg_ (http://www.rescuecritters.com/1587799014.jpg)

Ann and Norman (Portuguese Water Dog)
San Francisco Peninsula, CA, USA

"Never underestimate the warmth of a cold nose."

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
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6c. Re: Exactly what IS a knuckle bone?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 9:13 am ((PDT))

"totaly_his" <totaly_his@...> wrote:
I bought a package of
> beef neck bones that looks fairly large at the supermarket to give
to my dog. Would this be
> considered a knuckle bone?
*****
Neck bones that look fairly large are almost certainly not meaty
enough to count as a meal as well as being too small for unsupervised
chomping. Unless you are feeding a wee small dog. For example, a
sliced neck bone would be a good fun meal for my 10lb cat. For my
30lb BC it would be too small. My guess is some dogs can power
through longer lengths of necks without too much trouble; these dogs
will still be getting a fairly meatless meal though.

I believe the knuckle bone is the pastern (the round bone above the
hoof at the south end of the leg, below the knee or hock). These
come off the cow with very little flesh attached.

Usually the knobby protrusions can be eaten from the neck bone.
Beyond these knobs, at least for my dogs, the spine is pretty
difficult though not as potentially dangerous as knuckles or
femurs.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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6d. Re: Exactly what IS a knuckle bone?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 9:22 am ((PDT))

Anntiga@... wrote:
>
> Knuckle bones in four legged animals are the bones located where the
> animal's "knee" would be, between the upper leg and the lower leg
bones. They are
> large, kind of roundish bones.
*****
The chart comes up too small to read. Which is a shame because it's my
understanding that the knee is the knee and the hock is the hock and
the knuckle is the pastern which is the round bone above the foot. If
that too-small chart clearly shows the knuckle somewhere else, I hope
there's a larger image to view.

Is there?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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6e. Re: Exactly what IS a knuckle bone?
Posted by: "Anntiga@aol.com" Anntiga@aol.com anntiga
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 9:45 am ((PDT))

Chris, you are so much more knowledgeable that me. I was attempting to give
a layman's description of what I thought the knuckle bone was. You are much
clearer.

I could find several links to that same Cow Anatomy chart including some
that allow you to purchase the chart. I just couldn't find a larger version of
the chart.

In addition to being weak in anatomy, my computer skills can use some homing
also. I was hoping someone on this list would know of a way to enlarge the
chart.

Thanks,

Ann and Norman (Portuguese Water Dog)
San Francisco Peninsula, CA, USA

"Never underestimate the warmth of a cold nose."

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
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6f. Re: Exactly what IS a knuckle bone?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 10:13 am ((PDT))

Anntiga@... wrote:
>
> Chris, you are so much more knowledgeable that me. I was attempting
to give
> a layman's description of what I thought the knuckle bone was. You
are much
> clearer.
*****
Yeah, but that doesn't make me right! Just clearer. Wrong, but
clearer. I hope there's a source authority we can access. Could be
the front leg knee. Actually makes sense because the pastern bone
seems smaller than the average whole knuckle.

I suspect this is a job for...ButcherMan!
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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6g. Re: Exactly what IS a knuckle bone?
Posted by: "Anntiga@aol.com" Anntiga@aol.com anntiga
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 10:52 am ((PDT))

In a message dated 11/3/2007 10:14:23 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
Chriso75@AOL.COM writes:

I suspect this is a job for...ButcherMan!

Hopefully he can enlarge Internet charts also.

Ann and Norman (Portuguese Water Dog)
San Francisco Peninsula, CA, USA

"Never underestimate the warmth of a cold nose."

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
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7a. Re: Weatherwax Lassie Dogs Eating Raw Diet
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 8:31 am ((PDT))

"jennifer_hell" <jenniferhell@...> wrote:
> "Dad also knew that the first part of a kill a wild animal would go
> for is the intestines and stomach where the greens were being
> digested. Dogs need some complex carbohydrates along with meat, but
> they're not inclined to graze for them as cows and sheep do. To
> accommodate this part of the diet, Dad would add some greens to the
> meat, along with eggs, eggshells for additional calcium, and goat's
> milk as well."
>
> Um, looks like Dad got it wrong here.
*****
Boy howdy, Jennifer!
Probably best for Lassie that Weatherwax IS feeding prefab food, given
the misconceptions that would otherwise drive the poor dog's diet.

Whaddaya wanna bet Weatherwax is a paid spokesperson for whatever
prefab he's feeding?
Chris

Messages in this topic (3)
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8. Eggs for cats?
Posted by: "persephoneinfall" persephoneinfall@gmail.com persephoneinfall
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 8:46 am ((PDT))

I was just wondering if people out there feed their cats eggs. If so,
how do you do it? Do you mix up the raw egg, or just crack it in a
bowl? Did your cats realize they could eat it right away? And what
are the benefits? How often do you feed them?
Thanks!
Annette

Messages in this topic (1)
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9a. Re: Puppy is still throwing up
Posted by: "Alecia Hammack" akhwbj1@yahoo.com akhwbj1
Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 11:04 am ((PDT))

Laurie,

We are feeding him twice a day once in the morning about 7 or 8 am, and then again at night around 6 or 7 pm. He gets a chicken leg in the mornings and then he gets the thigh in the evening. If he doesn't finish all of the chicken leg in the morning then we offer that to him first and if he eats it and still is hungry then he works on the thigh and we save what he doesn't eat for the morning. We will be at our 2 week mark tomorrow and he still is throwing up some. He has been to the vet, because he threw up and quit breathing. He staid a whole weekend in puppy ICU at the vets and they could not figure out what was wrong. We tried feeding him puppy food when we got him home and he sitll threw up. So we decided to switch to raw and he did great the first few days only throwing up small amounts and re-eating them. Now he is starting to throw up like he did before. I don't think we can give him a break because he acts like he is starving now. We are so new to this and just
need help. Thanks so much for responding.

Alecia

Laurie Swanson <laurie@mckinneyphoto.com> wrote:
Poor little guy! How many times a day are you feeding? What exactly
are you feeding now? Does he have any other health issues/symptoms?
Are there certain meals that seem to stay down better? Does he throw
up his food immediately? Have you tried giving his system a break and
not feeding for a meal or two (maybe even a full day, and then re-
introducing food in small amounts and building back up to regular
meals)? Not that the vet would necessarily have an answer or any help,
but have you been?

Laurie

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