Re: [rawfeeding] USDA number for Green Tripe?

On Jun 5, 2007, at 4:51 PM, Y. Madeline Moon wrote:

>
> Have any of you successfully been able to purchase green tripe from
> USDA slaughterhouses? Other offal? Do you have an assigned USDA
> number that I could get? We want the Oahu inspector to be able to
> look it up and know that he or she is just being particular and
> designing his/her own rules, but that slaughterhouses can legally
> sell green tripe and offal for pet consumption.

My understanding is that they cannot handle the stuff in the same
plant as meat for human consumption. You could ask Mary at Greentripe
how her suppliers do it; it comes in cardboard cases on pallets,
labeled with which organ or part of the stomach the boxes contain. I
believe it says "not for human consumption" on each case. Then Mary's
crew dumps them out, grinds everything, and mixes the blends. Of
course the final product is also labeled that way, too.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

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[rawfeeding] Re: USDA number for Green Tripe?

Thanks Jeni, for the tips. I wish they were as easygoing as your
UCDavis folks.

Anyone else have any other suggestions? A local beef rancher seems to
think getting the USDA number from someone currently buying from a USDA
slaughterhouse will help us get green tripe out of the slaughterhouse
for pet consumption, which is why the request for the USDA number.

Mimi

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[rawfeeding] Re: Kidney function and raw diet

Thanks Chris. I GREATLY appreciate the explanation of zinc and
vitamin C... I just didn't understand it in terms of appropriate and
inappropriate.

> When we've discussed Hawaiian raw feeding issues before, I recall
> Costco and ranch direct being the two most highly recommended ways
to
> get food. Of course the obstacle to ranch direct is finding the
> ranch.

I've already contacted several ranchers and have obtained a source of
beef, but nothing else. Goats on the islands are usually fed a
seemingly toxic chemical dewormer (meant for cattle) that I'm not all
that comfortable feeding to my dog, from what I read about it. I have
been trying to seek out many different types of meats (lamb, goat,
poultry, etc.). I'm just having a difficult time finding a supplier
of offal and green tripe, due to the stringent slaughterhouse
policies.

> And if they do kill their own livestock,
> > they're likely not pastured but the industry pumped kind.
> *****
> This guessing or knowing? Seems hard to imagine.
>
I've contacted about 10-15 ranchers on the island. None of them kill
their own livestock but have it done by the slaughterhouse. Of
chickens, I have yet to find a local source of chickens... although I
am looking for the pastured variety. Costco chickens are the
cheapest, but I'd prefer getting them local and fresh. So far, there
is only one supplier of local chicken fryers and that outfit is in
Kauai. At least from what I've read. Most of the chicken is imported.
So, yes, i'm partially guessing, based on a combination of what
farmers have said, and what I've read... so it's an educated guess.
Ag is a little backwards in Hawaii. You'd think they were progressive
and they may be more so on the Big Island, but Oahu is pretty
backwards.

>
> If prey model
> > isn't an option, are there any OTHER suggestions on what to feed?
> *****
> Same as here: a variety of body parts from a variety of animals.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant what to feed to boost the kidneys and
the immune system... Though your answer might be the same.

My zinc questions were related to immune system deficiency. I've
heard that zinc boosts one's immune system. So if you have a problem
with the immune system, you'd add more zinc to improve it. So, in
essence, I WOULD be changing a diet because my previous one wasn't
working by adding zinc. But I gather from what you're saying is that
I shouldn't add supplements. hmmm... I'm a little skeptical about
that. Only since in the wild, the dogs get to eat what they want to
eat... which may include grasses, berries, herbs, other things they
might need in their diet, etc. In my house, his options are only that
which I put in front of him (and anything he has access to in my
backyard), which is very limiting. I've been tweaking his diet but
his demodex doesn't go away... it improves, but doesn't go away
entirely.... which is why I'm trying to turn to supplements.

Mimi

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Re: [rawfeeding] Thawing meat

Dianne,
Only if you were planning on eating it yourself, but for the dogs, they are fine. Sometimes if I put out too much, I refreeze it too, so it's no biggy. freeze, thaw, refreeze, thaw and freeze again, no big deal. As long as it's for the dogs.:) We do that alot with our group buys or large meat buys just like you, and it does take along time to let it thaw. My dogs are great danes, sometimes, they just get meals as it thaws:) Works pretty good that way sometimes.
Jeni

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[rawfeeding] Re: USDA number for Green Tripe?

Mimi wrote:

>The USDA inspector at the slaughterhouse in Oahu is apparently really
>strict . . . And the slaughterhouse is really hesitant to sell anything like offal
>and raw tripe.
>
>Have any of you successfully been able to purchase green tripe from
>USDA slaughterhouses? Other offal? Do you have an assigned USDA
>number that I could get? We want the Oahu inspector to be able to
>look it up and know that he or she is just being particular and
>designing his/her own rules, but that slaughterhouses can legally
>sell green tripe and offal for pet consumption.

The USDA Agriculture Marketing Service (AMS) publishes the IMPS
(Institutional Meat Purchase Specifications), which lists only:

726 BEEF TRIPE, SCALDED, BLEACHED (DENUDED)
727 BEEF TRIPE, HONEYCOMB, BLEACHED

>http://www.ams.usda.gov/lsg/stand/imps.htm
>http://www.ams.usda.gov/lsg/imps/imps700.pdf

The Meat Buyers Guide: Beef, Lamb, Veal, Pork, and Poultry, from the North
American Meat Processors Association (NAMP), uses these numbers:

1739 Beef Honeycomb Tripe
1740 Beef Mountain Chain Tripe
1737 Beef Paunch (Tripe), PSO H, Scalded & Bleached
>http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-0471747211.html

That was all I could find.

Lora
Evanston, IL

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[rawfeeding] Re: Talk about stubborn!

> Maybe get them together playing and give a "treat/ liver ball" to the
> other dog and see if you can trick her into wanting one too?
> Sometimes being left out helps, lol....

Both my dogs are accustomed to training sessions that may or may not
include food treats or lures, so rather than use my normal treats, I
switched to chunking up whatever new food I wanted them to eat. It
helps that I'm not squeamish about handling raw anything.

Tonight it was pork kidney for the first time. I gave it to them with
their meal earlier today, and neither of them would touch it. They
picked it up and spat it out. So this evening I chopped it up into
one-swallow pieces and did a training session with it. I don't know if
it's the idea that, "Oh! I have to work for it, so it must be good!"
or the competitive nature kicking in (whoever obeys first gets the
treat), but they gobbled it down and were looking for more. It's how I
introduced liver too, and now they'll eat that on their own.

I'm also using this to 'sneak' more food into my underweight dog who
won't eat enough to gain anything. For the session I just have little
chunks and big chunks 'o meat. When my male who's at a good weight
obeys, he gets a little chunk. When skinny girl obeys, she gets a big
chunk...preferably with fat. Easy. So long as it's a 'treat' she'll
eat as much as I'll give her.

Crystal and the Zoo

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[rawfeeding] Re: Getting mixed messages....

Hi, Tracey!
It sounds as if everything with the chicken is OK. Altho' I'm not
entirely happy with the 'up to 2% retained water' - that might indeed
be a sneaky end run around saying "we added stuff". I don't see any
problems with the way you are feeding, no red flags. As long as he is
eating, playing, gaining size and weight, he is OK.
If it were my pup, I'd probably move on to another protein - maybe
pork, with some/most of the skin/fat trimmed. He may just not be
tolerating the chicken, for whatever reason. Doesn't mean you can't
feed it ever, just means you should reintroduce it again later as a
'new' protein.
You could introduce turkey next, or the pork I just suggested, or
rabbit, lamb, beef, whatever you want. There's no 'perfect' order of
foods or progression to introducing new proteins. We often start with
or recommend chicken 'cause its cheap and easy to obtain. *shrug
Your call.
Don't worry so much about the exact ratio of meat to bone to organ,
think "balance over time". If bonier meals more often firm up his
stool, then that's OK for now. You have months to get the balance
perfect - as perfect as it ever is, ; ) it changes with each dog as
they mature and grow older.
Keep us posted how Ranger (and you!) are doing.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> I really appreciate thoughts on this. He is my first Mastiff and my
> first time feeding raw. I am trying to absorb everything as quickly as
> possible and I can't believe what I have learned on this group.
> Everyone is so great and informative. My concern after the most recent
> reading is that I am not getting enough meat by feeding whole chickens
> including the innards.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Tracey and Ranger

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Re: [rawfeeding] Meat only meals

Meat only meals are fine. Forty-five years ago, before the term
'rawfeeding' was heard of, my parents fed our family labs raw meat only meals. The dogs
did great!

Way back then, our dogs had terrible hot spots. The vet said the hot spots
were caused by kibble and to feed raw meat.

My parents fed raw hamburger every night to our dogs.

Too bad the vets of today didn't think like this guy.

You're doing great!

Ann and Norman (Portuguese Water Dog)
San Francisco Peninsula, CA, USA

"Never underestimate the warmth of a cold nose."

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

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[rawfeeding] Thawing meat

There have been a lot of posts about refreezing. Now
I have a question about thawing. I get meats in 40 to
60 lb boxes. It is very, very hard frozen. I have no
room to thaw it in the fridge. It take about 3 days
at room temp to thaw. (I usually try to time it to
buy on a Wednesday and let it thaw until Saturday so I
have the weekend to cut and parcel it for the
freezer). By letting it thaw completely at room temp,
am I inviting a dangerous amount of bacteria?

Dianne M.

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Re: [rawfeeding] Meat only meals

Michael,

Meat only diets would not be a good thing...but meat only meals pretty much
are necessary in order to get the appropriate %s. You'd never be able to
get 80% meat into the diet if you had to feed bone at every meal.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "jmwise80" <jmwise80@yahoo.com>

I was doing so good. No confusion, me and the pup were moving right
along. Then on a dog forum that I frequent they started talking about
meat only meals not being good. I'm not wanting to feed just meat
meals for weeks on end, just 1 maybe 2 days a week. That is ok,
right? I'm a recovering "raw feeding calculator fanatic" and have
taken on a much more relaxed way of feeding. The dog and I both enjoy
this more since taking this approach.

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[rawfeeding] Re: gnaw-worthy bones _ Chris O

I would imagine that "Chihuahua in skull" would easily match "dogs in
> elk"!
> Chris O

I wish you'd quit bringing this up.....Hahahaha
Every time I'm reminded of it, the belly laughs start
and the tears flow............

Carol & Charkee the Russian (who now wants an Elk)

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Re: [rawfeeding] USDA number for Green Tripe?

Mimi,
We get tripe from uc Davis but they do wash it, but not bleach it, and we just got them to do that. They used to just throw the tripe away, and they probably wouldn't verify that over the phone, they're still gunshy with selling us stuff for the dogs. (I am a Licensed Notary for the state and I told the butcher there I would be happy to sign a statement that the tripe wouldn't be going to people, and I think that made him happier to do it for us, but I'm not sure, maybe it was that we were willing to pay for it too) The butcher at uc Davis said it isn't a matter of if he can do it, it's a matter of having the time to do it, it's time consuming to clean it out, it can be messy. I told him we just needed it rinsed, no big deal. Just to make sure there was no metal or buy products in it. He was fine with that.
Now on the group buys sometimes we get tripe from Simon at Creston Meats here in California, They might be ok with the phone call, they are really nice when we deal with them, send them an email, they are online at crestonmeats.com and ask Simon, he'll email you back or his assistant will. He's currently on the road alot, he delivers to us off of the freeways when he is in the area, so we like him alot:)
Jeni

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[rawfeeding] Re: Kidney function and raw diet

"Y. Madeline Moon" <ymmoon@...> wrote:
>> Okay, what if, in Hawaii, I can't get access to whole prey model?
It's
> a lot easier on the mainland to get access to things. You'd be
> surprised how few rawfeeders there are in Hawaii. And then how few
prey
> model feeders there are. And I'm already fighting slaughterhouses
to
> get offal.
*****
When we've discussed Hawaiian raw feeding issues before, I recall
Costco and ranch direct being the two most highly recommended ways to
get food. Of course the obstacle to ranch direct is finding the
ranch. I imagine where one lives on what island would make a
difference. Apparently Maui is home to lots of goat; they would be
my prey model of preference in most any environment! If you can get
whole goats you don't need to go to the slaughterhouse for offal.

And if they do kill their own livestock,
> they're likely not pastured but the industry pumped kind.
*****
This guessing or knowing? Seems hard to imagine.

If prey model
> isn't an option, are there any OTHER suggestions on what to feed?
*****
Same as here: a variety of body parts from a variety of animals.

>Why isn't
> zinc appropriate if you want to boost immune system?
*****
You can't boost the immune system. You can feed high quality species
appropriate food, reduce environmental abuse, help the dog lead a
good clean life. Why would zinc fit into that? Why would one want
to supplement with a mineral without knowing what all else is
affected by the change in that mineral? Unless the dog has a zinc
deficiency, there's no reason to add zinc; certainly one would want
to consider copper as well if one were going to mess with zinc.

Why wouldn't you
> want to give zinc and/or vitamin C or something like that to your
dog?
*****
Why would you want to give Vitamin C? Getting a dog to optimal
health is not about supplementing piecemeal. If the diet is
inadequate, revise it.
Chris O

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[rawfeeding] does anyone feed intestines

I found beef intestines at walmart. I didn't get them because I haven't
read of anyone feeding them. Are they of any value for dogs? Also do
you have to be as careful with sweetbreads and kidneys as you do with
liver?

Monell

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[rawfeeding] Meat only meals

I was doing so good. No confusion, me and the pup were moving right
along. Then on a dog forum that I frequent they started talking about
meat only meals not being good. I'm not wanting to feed just meat
meals for weeks on end, just 1 maybe 2 days a week. That is ok,
right? I'm a recovering "raw feeding calculator fanatic" and have
taken on a much more relaxed way of feeding. The dog and I both enjoy
this more since taking this approach.

I, like a lot of folks base off chicken. He can eat a game hen in 2
days. So I usually feed 2 a week. On the other days I feed riblets,
bone in pork butt, pork neck with x-tra meat from pork butt, oxtail,
tripe, beef heart, just beef or deer meat, and beef and bison liver and
kidney. Just depends on what I grab outta the freezer.

I feel this is ok variety and since 4 days are spent eating 2 whole
game hens then its ok to feed "unbalanced" the other days. God I hoped
I'd never say that word again. I guess I just wanted to go ahead and
put out there what I feed to be reassured its ok or corrected if
something needed to be different.

Michael Wise

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[rawfeeding] Re: gnaw-worthy bones

"Denise Strother" <denisestrother@...> wrote:
I don't know what kind of heads Chris is feeding her
> retrievers, but mine say, goat heads are pretty yummy. The big plus
is
> that it occupies them for hours. Denise
*****
Goat heads are likely to be et. Calf and lamb heads are usually
tackled from the back (where the neck would be if there were one) and
eaten pretty much from the inside out so that when the fun's over
what's left is the cranium.

I would imagine that "Chihuahua in skull" would easily match "dogs in
elk"!
Chris O

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[rawfeeding] Re: The dogs don't read...

> Well, my other dogs don't read the "how to" feeding books. You know,
the part about no grain for dogs? They decided to open a bag of sheep
feed and
> proceeded to eat about 1/5 of it. I'll know who the culprits are
tomorrow when I pick up the yard. :-)
>
> Cathy
>
Hahahaha! Cathy I'll be everyone of them tries to
hide his poop tomorrow!

Carol & Charkee the Russian (He would-I'm not raising a dumb dog)

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[rawfeeding] Re: glucosomine, red meat and uric acid

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: SIGN YOUR MESSAGES PLEASE.***

Suz Kate and Joey wrote:

I have been doing some research on this as my Katie ruptured a disc
last week....look what this site said....

"Unfortunately the main food for dogs is red meat, which is high in
uric acid. Uric acid is a main contributor to many arthritic-type
conditions.

========
Hi Suz,

As I mentioned before my dog blew out a disc and had to have back
surgery. He was in bad shape with it and 50/50 if he'd walk again.

The surgeon who did his surgery specializes in back surgery on dogs
& well known in the Mid-west......

Here's what he told me at the time.

A ruptured disc is a ruptured disc. If it were only worn down
then that is different, usually from a poor diet or old age.
and that can be supplemented to help.

A ruptured one is from an accident.......mine jumped off a bed and
landed on his front feet solid, throwing his back into a forward
motion. No, no more beds for him.

Maybe you should check with the vet again and make sure what type of
disc problem you dog has?

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[rawfeeding] Re: cutting frozen meats

"k9dancer" <k9dancer@...> wrote:
>
> -Yes, but can I safely re-freeze?
> Stephanie
*****
Yes, 100% absolutely yes, endlessly if needs be.
Chris O

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[rawfeeding] Re: Advice needed: dog ingested an unknown toxic substance

"beverly" <bwoodwar@...> wrote:
> My question is - the vet said to give them boiled chicken and rice in
24 hours. I don't particularly think rice is good - but what would be
ok? I'm thinking boneless meat?
*****
You vet is speaking from his collection of empiric knowledge, here we
can speak (okay, write) from ours. You do not need to rice or cooked
chicken. No point in dumming down healthy food when a dog most needs
it! Boneless, skinless chicken breast--fat removed if you desire--will
indeed work fine. You can also try boneless white fish like whiting or
pollock if your dog likes fish (now is not the time to introduce new
food!).

If you need to consider something to soothe his plumbing, Slippery Elm
can do that.
Chris O

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[rawfeeding] Re: GSD needs soft stools

Chris O wrote:

>You can vary the amount of fat to keep the stools soft (Lard knows
>we've all been THERE before!);

Chris, you should be ashamed of yourself for that one.

Lora
Evanston, IL

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[rawfeeding] Re: cutting frozen meats

Stephanie in L.A. wrote:

>I need help cutting frozen beef liver and heart.
>
>My only alternative is to cook it and refreeze the leftovers, or just
>eat it myself.

Ah, you've been thoroughly trained in never refreezing food, haven't you?

Bet your mom taught you to not feed chicken bones to dogs too! <grin>

Actually, the prohibition against refreezing is purely to avoid food-borne
illness caused by bacteria growth. So many people defrost the wrong way and
allow bacteria to grow. Refreezing doesn't kill that bacteria, it just put
them to sleep until they warm up again, then they start their orgy right
where they left off.

The Food Safety and Inspection Service of the USDA recommends:
Foods defrosted in the refrigerator can be refrozen without cooking, although
there may be some loss of quality.
Foods thawed by the cold water method should be cooked before refreezing.
Foods thawed in the microwave should be cooked before refreezing.

The difference in recommendations is purely due to their concern about
whether all parts of the food remained under 40 F the entire time.
>http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Fact_Sheets/Big_Thaw/index.asp

Lora
Evanston, IL

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[rawfeeding] Re: Talk about stubborn! (Dog won't eat liver) _Sarra

Anyone else run into this issue where a dog would
rather starve for 4 days rather than eat liver?

Because organs are an integral part of the diet and having a dog that
won't touch them is a problem.
One of my dogs
starves herself for days on end if she doesn't like what is being
offered. Most of the time she turns up her nose at whatever I'm
offering for two or three or four days then she might deign to eat a
single chicken leg quarter, or if I'm lucky two.

I can't figure out how to get my female to eat anything. Just how
long can she go without food
without it being a problem? I don't want to give in and feed her
just chicken which is what she wants, that's not healthy enough, but
I also don't want to make her sick or starve her.
Sarra

=======================
Hi Sarra,

Have you changed where you're feeding your dogs?

Do they always eat together?

Some dogs need to have the "boss" around in the beginning.
Maybe help her more by offering bites to her.

Maybe cutting up chicken breast in bite size pieces for awhile with
the bone still in.

Try quickly searing her meat or putting Salmon Oil on it or garlic.

Have you checked her teeth and gums for any problems?

If she eats any ground meats, you can always cut up the liver into
tiny pieces and put them in the middle of a little hamburger ball and
offer them to her as treats.

Maybe get them together playing and give a "treat/ liver ball" to the
other dog and see if you can trick her into wanting one too?
Sometimes being left out helps, lol....

Hope some of this helps.........

Sometimes we get so frustrated worrying about them and loose sight of
the fact that we are smarter in some areas.

Carol & Charkee the Russian (who thinks he can outdo me)

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[rawfeeding] Re: Great deals at supermarket

Dorothy wrote:

>I have discovered that I can get great deals on meat at a local
>supermarket. Their weekly sales start Wed. each week. Most of their
>sale meat is packaged to "expire" on Wednesday. The chain has larger
>& smaller stores. Evidently the smaller stores often end up "stuck
>with" meat. The put $2 off stickers on the expiring meat on Tues. so
>I buy it & freeze it. Since I'm usually only buying 1 weeks worth at
>a time (the chest freezer died an ugly death) this is great. Any one
>have any reason why this won't work - i.e. don't feed past expiration
>date even if frozen before?

No problem at all. Here's some information on dates from the USDA:

"Generally, dates such as "sell by" are voluntary, meaning they are not
mandated by the federal government. Dates are provided by manufacturers as a
quality guide. "
"Dates on Labels
"Sell-By" dates tell the store how long to offer a product for sale. Make
sure you buy it before the "sell-by" date.
"Best if Used By" dates recommend best flavor or quality and doesn't refer to
food safety.
"Use-By" dates refer to the last date that the manufacturer suggests is best
for the product to be consumed."
>http://www.fsis.usda.gov/News_&_Events/NR_020705_01/index.asp

I also asked the store manager of a nearby grocer what he did with the meat
that hit its date. He told me that as long as it wasn't too dark (from
contact with air), they ground it and offered it for sale again.

Lora
Evanston, IL

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[rawfeeding] Re: interesting report about pet food industry

"k9dancer" <k9dancer@...> wrote:
>
> Just to be clear: it's a 40 page "essay" with over 300 quoted
sources.
> That said, we should always verify facts before we applaud or denounce
> something.
*****
Always!

I have that document. I printed it out. I think it does a good job of
what it was supposed to do, and that's make a point and defend it.
Probably there are equally competent rebuttals, but I would not have a
problem referring people to the material.
Chris O

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[rawfeeding] Re: cutting frozen meats

"k9dancer" <k9dancer@...> wrote:>
> I need help cutting frozen beef liver and heart.
*****
Can you not simply parcel out the organs before you freeze them?
Defrosting, bagging, then refreezing is pretty standard stuff for raw
feeders. Certainly seems less complicated and safer than messing with
saws.

Chris O

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[rawfeeding] Re: GSD needs soft stools

"kim" <kimmnes@...> wrote:
>I haven't been able to make that happen with 100%
> raw, so he's eating commercial dog food too. I want him off the dog
> food, but can't risk hard stools. Any suggestions are appreciated.
*****
Good to see you posting!
My obvious suggestion is to get rid of the kibble and revise the raw
menu you had been feeding. Kibble--so that the companies can brag
about reduced stool volume and ease of clean up--include all sorts of
fiber to keep those poops hard. Since you are trying to avoid hard
poops, there is no point to going to kibble for a solution.
Additionally of course any dog with signficant health problems should
be eating the most nutritious foods available, not the most
artificial!

Since hard stools in a raw diet generally indicate excessive bone, my
first recommendation would be to reduce the amount of bone you feed.
A senior dog needs very little dietary bone, so you should not fear
chintzing him in that area. Any calcium you do need to add can be
provided either by a small amount of bone with his meat meals, or
with ground eggshell or a commercial calcium supplement.

You can vary the amount of fat to keep the stools soft (Lard knows
we've all been THERE before!); keeping the guy hydrated also helps
maintain soft stools.

Feeding kibble to dog that's been through serious surgery is like
saying to a recuperating person, "here have another bowl of Total."
How not healthy that sounds!

I hope we can help you find a solution to this.
Chris O

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[rawfeeding] Re: tripe

Joanne wrote:

>I think I want to use tripe as an organ type add-on to a meal. Not the whole
>meal. So.....can I thaw this 2 lb. containter....make several small portions
>and refreeze? Does this sort of thing go bad with more than one thawing?

Is it even possible to TELL if tripe has gone bad? <snort>

Lora
Evanston, IL

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[rawfeeding] Re: glucosomine, red meat and uric acid

Suz Kate and Joey wrote:

>I have been doing some research on this as my Katie ruptured a disc
>last week....look what this site said....
>
>"Unfortunately the main food for dogs is red meat, which is high in
>uric acid. Uric acid is a main contributor to many arthritic-type
>conditions. In a way, feeding your dog the foods they love can be
>setting them up for mobility problems later on in life!"
>
>So what the heck are you supposed to feed your dog. Are they
>suggesting you feed things like pork and chicken instead? Does anyone
>have any thoughts on Uric Acid, and where it plays out in a rawfed diet?

First of all, you read it on a site that LOOKS like an independent site
called the "Arthritis and Glucosamine Information Center." Dig a little
deeper and read the fine print and you find that it's owned by "DTC Health
Inc., the makers of Flexicose and other high quality nutraceuticals."

The article is cited as
"An article on pet arthritis and joint pain by Pet Corner
Used with permission."
I couldn't find a web site that appeared to match "pet corner" with "uric
acid" that was meaningful in this context.

I chalk it up to bullshit marketing for their product.

Lora
Evanston, IL

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[rawfeeding] Re: Getting mixed messages....

> -Hi, Tracey!
> How much are you feeding at a meal? How many times a day?

I am feeding him 3 times a day (he's 16 weeks and 55 #s). I quarter a
chicken and give him 2 quarters. He usually eats one whole and part of
another.

> Don't throw out the heart, liver & gizzards, put them in a bag in the
> freezer! You can stuff them into a chicken to feed later on. : )
> Mom says, "Don't waste food!" ; )

I toss it in with the rest of his meal.

> Chicken is a bit more bony than some other prey animals, but its just
> right for chicken.

So my "ratios" are okay with just feeding him whole chickens with the
"innards"?

> You might be seeing the loose stool because he's getting too much food
> at a meal, or chicken will affect him that way, it may just be because
> he's still adjusting to eating raw. Be sure to check the chicken
> packaging label - is it enhanced? If it has added water, salt
> solution, flavorings or seasonings, that may be the culprit.

I just went and checked them and they say nothing about added but there
"may be up to 2% retained water." It says all natural so I think I am
okay there but not sure of they are being tricky with their wording.

> Will he 'chew' up the quarters, or does he tend to crunch, crunch
> swallow? If he is swallowing huge chunks, he needs bigger food.

My hubby was cutting it up smaller and there would be whole pieces of
meat and he seemed to pretty much swallow them whole. Since I am
feeding quarters he crunches on the boney parts then swallows.

> Does he have just loose stool, is it runny, does it have chinks o'
> bone in it? If its *just loose, You probably shouldn't worry. If it
> has chunks o' bone, that's pretty normal for a newbie dog, too. But, I
> would not cut up his portions -feed them as is, and let him work at
it.

It is runny. He seems to work really hard at going then what comes out
is runny. I didn't see any bone or they were really tiny so he seems to
be okay there.

I really appreciate thoughts on this. He is my first Mastiff and my
first time feeding raw. I am trying to absorb everything as quickly as
possible and I can't believe what I have learned on this group.
Everyone is so great and informative. My concern after the most recent
reading is that I am not getting enough meat by feeding whole chickens
including the innards.

Thanks,

Tracey and Ranger

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[rawfeeding] Re: Great deals at supermarket

"keltoicrone" <keltoicrone@...> wrote:
> Any one
> have any reason why this won't work - i.e. don't feed past expiration
> date even if frozen before?
*****
Unless your dog is significantly immuno-challenged, I'd say there are
no reasons not to take advantage of this bounty! Expiration dates are
human deadlines, not ones arranged by or for dogs. Buy the meats, feed
them as is or freeze for later.

I have purchased .99/lb expired lamb legs that were quite fragrant when
I removed the wrappings. A rinse under running water (one can go so
far as spritzing with vinegar if one feels the need) removed most of
the aroma; my dogs ate well and entirely without incident.

We've discussed "old" meats on this list before. I think there's
plenty of evidence that old meat and even stinky meat for dogs is
simply a non-issue.
Chris O

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[rawfeeding] Re: diarrhea

"skullgrrrl" <skullgrrrl@...> wrote:
>
> my two standard poodles have been eatting raw for @3mths. they
mostly
> eat store bought raw (ground chicken or turkey with bones in).
they
> also eat chicken necks and wings.
*****
This is it?
Organs?
Any off bone meat?
Anything other than poultry?
I think it's time to move along to whole foods and meatier options!

on two occasions they both
> experienced diarrhea - once after eatting pork ribs (quite meaty)
and
> last night chicken necks and backs.
*****
Diarrhea is characterized by uncontrollable, watery and often
explosive stools. Does this describe what your dogs produced? If
so, then I'd be inclined to say it wasn't menu based (not with both
having the same sort of response) but rather something more related
to bacteria overgrowth or parasites.

If you mean loose (puddinglike or perhaps somewhat more oozy) or
mucusy stools that your dogs were able to control but were not the
firm if not rock hard stools you are probably accustomed to, then I'd
say the cause was more fat than they could comfortably digest, or too
much food altogether. If a dog has no experience with skin or fat
(or a new protein source) loose stool are not uncommon.

Going from a pretty limited diet of bony poultry to pork spare ribs
is quite a giant step for any dog, not to mention a dog that's new to
the concept. I suggest you add in a few stops along the way next
time, to acclimate them to variety. Skin and fat should also be
treated with respect.
Chris O

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[rawfeeding] The dogs don't read...

As a breeder I often say that the b*tches don't read the books and whelp early or don't give any signs or whatever.

Well, my other dogs don't read the "how to" feeding books. You know, the part about no grain for dogs? They decided to open a bag of sheep feed and
proceeded to eat about 1/5 of it. I'll know who the culprits are tomorrow when I pick up the yard. :-)

Cathy

Busydog Ventures
Focused on healthy minds and bodies!

Ask me about our canine reproduction seminar with
Dr. Robert Van Hutchison in October 2007!

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Re: [rawfeeding] Re: cutting frozen meats

I have re frozen many things and I bet that you have unknowingly. Many meat products from the market are pre-frozen then laid out in the meat department, especially chicken.

There should be no problem thawing out the piece, cutting it up and placing the cut pieces back into the freezer. Just thaw it like you would for yourself, don't leave it out on the counter all day until it is room temp then refreeze. I think that the biggest thing with re-freezing is ice crystals.... and dogs don't care if it has ice crystals.

Chrissy
----- Original Message -----
From: k9dancer

-Yes, but can I safely re-freeze?
Stephanie

.

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[rawfeeding] Re: Raw feeding is just a fad?

I emailed the writer of that article, saying that it's no fad, that my cats
are thriving on raw meat, and that I, for one, will never trust the
commercial feed companies again. I said that the vets don't know much about nutrition
and are as on-the-take as American politicians are to big business. I also
emailed her some links, including to Jane's website and to rawfed and myths,
along with this group's homepage.

She replied promptly and pleasantly, saying that she has cats, herself, and
she has learned that people are "passionate about their choices." She thanked
me for the links, which she looks forward to following up on. Who knows? The
next lurking newbie....?

Lynda

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

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[rawfeeding] raw feeding when you are not in the city

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.***

Hi all,
I just joined the group and I am new to raw feeding. actually my dog isn't raw fed right
now. I am very interested, I just need to do all my research and plan for this. My dog is a
year old Kelpie/heeler mix, she is the best and very healthy, energetic, etc. She goes with
me everywhere- she has never ever been left alone. we have walked long distances
together and traveled the country in the less than a year we have been together. because
of our lifestyle I have a couple questions:

-how much more expensive is it to feed raw than the all natural high end k**ble types of
food? ofcourse this varys im sure, but a ballpark would be nice.

-I am someone who travels a lot, I camp a lot (as in for months at a time), and live in my
car sometimes too. Can this type of lifestyle work logistically with raw food? how can I
keep raw meat that needs to be frozen in my car? how can I bring enough raw food with
me camping?

-and along those same lines how important is it that the raw diet be fed raw and not
cooked? if it neednt be raw the meat could travel and I could still maintain the 10%
organs/75%-80% meat diet this list recommends.

-I have read about dehydrated raw food diets (thehonestkitchen.com), of what quality diet
is that by raw feeding standards?

so, wow. maybe you can tell im a little overwhelmed by all the info. I want to do the very
best for my dog, but I am not a hunter and also not a rich city/suburban type. thanks for
any help. this group is an amazing wealth of info.

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[rawfeeding] Re: Kidney function and raw diet

>
> Prey model raw is THE BEST food for kidneys and the immune system.
> If you want to improve your dog's diet, aim for more whole prey, aim
> for more wild prey, aim for more pastured prey.
>

Okay, what if, in Hawaii, I can't get access to whole prey model? It's
a lot easier on the mainland to get access to things. You'd be
surprised how few rawfeeders there are in Hawaii. And then how few prey
model feeders there are. And I'm already fighting slaughterhouses to
get offal. I can only imagine the struggles I'd have to go through to
get prey model. There aren't personal/boutique slaughterhouses and
processing plants in Hawaii like there are in the mainland. And most
farmers don't kill their own livestock, except perhaps chickens (which
I can't seem to find on Oahu). And if they do kill their own livestock,
they're likely not pastured but the industry pumped kind. If prey model
isn't an option, are there any OTHER suggestions on what to feed?
>
> **Make the diet MORE appropriate, not less appropriate.

Sorry, but the term "appropriate" requires some explaining. Why isn't
zinc appropriate if you want to boost immune system? Why wouldn't you
want to give zinc and/or vitamin C or something like that to your dog?
What makes that "inappropriate"?

Thanks.

Mimi

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[rawfeeding] Re: Getting mixed messages....

++++Mod note: pls sign all emails +++++++++++

-Hi, Tracey!
How much are you feeding at a meal? How many times a day?
Don't throw out the heart, liver & gizzards, put them in a bag in the
freezer! You can stuff them into a chicken to feed later on. : )
Mom says, "Don't waste food!" ; )
Chicken is a bit more bony than some other prey animals, but its just
right for chicken.
You might be seeing the loose stool because he's getting too much food
at a meal, or chicken will affect him that way, it may just be because
he's still adjusting to eating raw. Be sure to check the chicken
packaging label - is it enhanced? If it has added water, salt
solution, flavorings or seasonings, that may be the culprit.
Will he 'chew' up the quarters, or does he tend to crunch, crunch
swallow? If he is swallowing huge chunks, he needs bigger food.
Does he have just loose stool, is it runny, does it have chinks o'
bone in it? If its *just loose, You probably shouldn't worry. If it
has chunks o' bone, that's pretty normal for a newbie dog, too. But, I
would not cut up his portions -feed them as is, and let him work at it.

> Hi,
>
> I am still very new to this and have a follow up question if you could
> please clarify. I have a 16 week old Mastiff and I am feeding him
> whole chickens. I am cutting them up into quarters to help him out a
> little (he is still looking at it a little confused when I first put
> it down...but then they always have a perplexed look lol) and I will
> throw out the heart, liver, etc too. I am only feeding him that for
> now. Is this the correct amount or too much bone? He is still having
> loose stools so I have been a bit worried I am giving too much or not
> enough of something.
>
> Tracey and Ranger
>

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[rawfeeding] Re: Getting mixed messages....

My 40 lber eats the bones, the 5 and 3 lbers eat the meat and
cartilage on the ends of the bones. Denise

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Josephine Morningstar"
<josephine.morningstar@...> wrote:
I recently bought a 30lb box of turkey drumsticks. and i have to say..
i have Never seen such Huge drumsticks in my life...how do others deal
with this size of meat?? what about the bone??
thanks.

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[rawfeeding] HGE

I am new to this human raw feeding. Have been feeding the pre-made for
almost a year now. I can only tell you my experience. My dog too had this
last year. No matter what we tried in the way of kibble, he constantly had
diarrhea and twice had to go in for IV fluids for bloody diarrhea and
gastric distress. Even on prescription food he improved but did not heal
totally. I switched to raw, and to my delight, he almost immediately began
to improve dramatically. To this day, he's never had diarrhea since. His
coat has been soft and shiny since going raw with an even bigger improvement
since going on the prey model.

Joanne

Newbie here. I have been searching for the best diet for my dogs for
awhile, even before the pet food recall, and even more so now. I
have 3 yorkies, the 9#er is 5 today, the 6# brothers are 4. I've
just recently did away with their kibble, and tried several canned
foods, but haven't been happy with that either. I want to go raw,
but I have some concerns because of their health, especially one.

They all had a bout of HGE just over a year ago, one has had 2 more
bouts of HGE, last one just a couple of months ago. This is very
scary, vomiting and bloody diarrhea that requires a vet stay with IV
fluids and other meds for a few days. So I'm concerned about trying
raw food, especially for the sickly one. In addition to the HGE, he
has swollen lymph nodes, periodontal disease and just seems sickly
and underweight. He's been on Hills z/d canned prescription diet the
last few weeks and I've recently been giving them all cooked meat,
and he is doing better, the swelling in his lymph nodes is down and
he's putting on weight.

I'm thinking of giving them some raw beef ribs to start out, since
they've had raw beef soup bones for treats before and did just fine.
They've had cooked beef ribs before and ate the bones, so I guess
they will be able to eat them raw also. So, my question is, does
this sound okay, and should I add some raw beef with it?
So far they've had cooked chicken and salmon, so maybe it would be
best to give them more cooked chicken with the raw ribs, just to see
how they do before giving more raw?

I've been learning a lot from all your posts. So far I've learned
not to give them any more white rice, pasta and vegetables. So now
it's just cooked meat for the 2, and cooked meat w/half prescription
canned food. But he'll be weaned off the canned stuff after tonight.
Also, I've been feeding them 3 x a day, I'll cut that back to 2 now.

Thanks everyone!
Patty and the brat pack

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