Feed Pets Raw Food: Jul 27, 2007

Friday, July 27, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11851

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: A nervous newbie with some specific challenges - gulping
From: jbronwen

2a. Re: Tell me about 'tripe'
From: Sandee Lee
2b. Re: Tell me about 'tripe'
From: costrowski75

3a. Mini Rant (was "protein percentage")
From: Garnaas, Carolyn (MED US)
3b. Re: Mini Rant (was "protein percentage")
From: pet.wellness
3c. Re: Mini Rant (was "protein percentage")
From: chaparraltrail
3d. Re: Mini Rant (was "protein percentage")
From: costrowski75

4. Refusing organs
From: millser25

5a. Newbie with various questions
From: sarahfalkner
5b. Re: Newbie with various questions
From: costrowski75

6a. Re: Poo less, pee more
From: Laurie Swanson
6b. Re: Poo less, pee more
From: costrowski75

7a. Re: Constipation
From: Laurie Swanson
7b. Re: Constipation
From: Cheryl
7c. Re: Constipation
From: Sandee Lee

8. Windfall
From: halojo45

9a. Re: older dog
From: Cheryl
9b. Re: older dog
From: Sandee Lee

10a. Looking for excellent summary post....
From: woofwoofgrrl
10b. Re: Looking for excellent summary post....
From: Sandee Lee

11a. Re: protein percentage?
From: tinybabypony

12a. Re: missing stuff in diet
From: emdeefa

13a. In memory of Harley 10/26/97 thru 07/27/07
From: cornerstone_bullmastiffs
13b. Re: In memory of Harley 10/26/97 thru 07/27/07
From: michael@brooksweb.org

14.1. Re: Chicken feet
From: costrowski75

Messages
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1a. Re: A nervous newbie with some specific challenges - gulping
Posted by: "jbronwen" bronwenjones@sympatico.ca jbronwen
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:34 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:

> You may be surprised what he will be able to handle with his
> remaining teeth, but feeding small pieces that can be swallowed whole
is not
> the way to go.

Well, thanks to your suggestion I gathered my courage. My toothless
wonder (or 'less teeth' wonder) tackled a whole chicken breast today!
It took him 45 minutes to consume it all but he did it!!! Yaaaay.
<mommy is proud>

So now I know I can get him his bone content. As for boneless meals,
in order to give a piece big enough that he can't scarf, it will have
to be way more than his alottment for that meal, or even that day. So
once he's eaten what I want him to, do I just take it away?

I'm also dubious that he will be able to tear beef/pork as successfully
as he could tear the chicken - we'll wait and see I guess. I notice
that Satchel does not lie down and 'hold' his meat with his paws to
help as he pulls at it. He just stands over it as turns his head as he
chews.
Can I help him learn this?

Bronwen

Messages in this topic (4)
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2a. Re: Tell me about 'tripe'
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:45 pm ((PDT))

Pam,

Don't bother with tripe from the grocery store...it's been cleaned,
bleached, etc. for human use. Raw tripe is good stuff but you won't be able
to buy it in your market!! :))

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "pvojtas" <pam.vojtas@datacore.com>

Ok, we have made the plunge - Charlie and Quincy enjoyed their chicken
breast w/ ribs last night! So today I visited Walmart to see what other
cool things I could buy (got more chicken parts, some pork country ribs
and chicken hearts). There I saw two different types of tripe:
honeycomb, which looked like white bubble wrap and beef tripe, which
just looked disgusting. I had been feeding the boys canned Solid Gold
Green Cow Tripe, which they loved. Any one have any thoughts on raw
tripe?
Pam

Messages in this topic (5)
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2b. Re: Tell me about 'tripe'
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:23 pm ((PDT))

"pvojtas" <pam.vojtas@...> wrote:
There I saw two different types of tripe:
> honeycomb, which looked like white bubble wrap and beef tripe, which
> just looked disgusting. I had been feeding the boys canned Solid Gold
> Green Cow Tripe, which they loved. Any one have any thoughts on raw
> tripe?
*****
To paraphrase Obi-Wan Kenobi in Star Wars, these aren't the tripes you
want.

The tripe you want won't be found along side meats approved for human
consumption. The tripe you saw is bleached and cleaned and stripped of
anything remarkable. The stomach tissue itself is a mediocre protein.
You can buy these tripes for fun toys if you want but I think you can
find better body parts to spend your money on.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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3a. Mini Rant (was "protein percentage")
Posted by: "Garnaas, Carolyn (MED US)" carolyn.garnaas@siemens.com carolyn.garnaas
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:30 pm ((PDT))

I had to take Molly to the vet to get her ears attended to, and there
was a huge poster sitting right out on the counter stating in large
print that due to the recent melamine scare (where thousands of animals
died, not hundreds like the media said), some people are considering
preparing home-cooked meals for their dog.

The vets who wrote the poster actually claimed that it is DANGEROUS to
home-cook food for your dog. Instead they recommended a (very expensive)
consultation with their "canine nutrition specialist" to ensure that the
dogs get a balanced diet. Then they recommended some "balanced" k**ble.

Balderdash. I had to bite my lip not to laugh right out loud. So did
Molly. But it's also hard not to become angry over this kind of
misguided, self-serving advice.

Carolyn J. Garnaas

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Messages in this topic (4)
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3b. Re: Mini Rant (was "protein percentage")
Posted by: "pet.wellness" pet.wellness@yahoo.com pet.wellness
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:25 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Garnaas, Carolyn (MED US)"
<carolyn.garnaas@...> wrote:
>
> Balderdash. I had to bite my lip not to laugh right out loud. So did
> Molly. But it's also hard not to become angry over this kind of
> misguided, self-serving advice.
> Carolyn J. Garnaas
>
***
Self-serving is one thing. Believing your own bull is another. I am so
disappointed in the veterinary profession.
Pamela

http://www.pet-wellness-update.com
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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3c. Re: Mini Rant (was "protein percentage")
Posted by: "chaparraltrail" chaparraltrail@yahoo.com chaparraltrail
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:49 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Garnaas, Carolyn (MED US)"
<carolyn.garnaas@...> wrote:
>
> The vets who wrote the poster actually claimed that it is
DANGEROUS to
> home-cook food for your dog.

It is one thing to prefer processed food...but to claim a more
natural diet is DANGEROUS? Kind of reminds me of the flack women
took 50 years ago (with some doctors) when they wanted to breast
feed human babies. How COULD those silly women think
their "homemade" milk could compete with modern science?!?

It is important to have a vet with whom you can speak openly.
Websites and e-mail lists are great, but no substitute for a good
vet. In those rare instance where there might be a problem with a
raw diet (just like there are humans with PKU, and other
intolerances to normal nutrients), you want a vet who will work with
you to keep the diet as natural as possible, not blemae you for your
DANGEROUS choices.

Lori

Messages in this topic (4)
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3d. Re: Mini Rant (was "protein percentage")
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:36 pm ((PDT))

"Garnaas, Carolyn (MED US)" <carolyn.garnaas@...> wrote:
>> The vets who wrote the poster actually claimed that it is
DANGEROUS to
> home-cook food for your dog. Instead they recommended a (very
expensive)
> consultation with their "canine nutrition specialist" to ensure
that the
> dogs get a balanced diet. Then they recommended some "balanced"
k**ble.
*****
When my big Lab was a little Lab still and I was taking him to
UCDavis for work on his elbow dysplasia, I was asked--not by the vet
but rather by one of his students--what I fed and when I said raw the
woman gave me a condescending little smile (similar to "Doctor will
see you now") and told me they'd be happy to work up a good diet for
me.

Oh, thanks so much. Would that be with or without help from Science
Diet?

I am grateful for the fine work UCD did on my Lab's elbows. I know
many dog owners whose dogs benefitted from the ministrations of Davis
vets. I'll give them that. But no way am I gonna let them feed my
dogs!
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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4. Refusing organs
Posted by: "millser25" millser25@yahoo.com millser25
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:29 pm ((PDT))

Hi,
I've been trying to introduce organs to my dog, but he hates them.
Occasionally, he'll eat liver, if I chop it up into pieces and mix it
with ground meat or other chunks of meaty meat. I offered him hunks
of cow heart last week. He eventually ate the heart hunks the first
two days I offered it, but refused it after that. I offered liver
again and he refused. Next I offered beef kidney. He rolled it
around in his mouth a few times, but wouldn't eat it. I tried cutting
it into pieces and mixing it with pieces of meaty meat, but he ate
around it. After about half an hour, I took it away from him, and
offered it again the next morning - alone. He still refused, so I
pulled it away after about half an hour. I offered it a third time
for dinner, and he continued to refuse. I'm concerned that I won't be
able to incorporate organs. Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Erica

Messages in this topic (1)
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5a. Newbie with various questions
Posted by: "sarahfalkner" Sarah.Falkner@gmail.com sarahfalkner
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:35 pm ((PDT))

Hi all, I read through most of the posts, and still have a couple of questions.

I'm really glad to find this list, I've tried to feed my companion cats all raw food for years
on and off, but not only have I in the past gotten flak from friends, vets etc., but against
my intuition I followed recipes--the only "authoritative" raw food info I could find for
years--which always included some grain and/or veggies, and usually a complicated and
expensive blend of supplements, all of which naturally the cats would leave on the plate
having carefully picked out the meat, and then I would worry my friends/vet/etc were right
that I wasn't giving them balanced nutrition, and feeling guilty and pressured I would go
back to feeding some high-end canned food like Wysong, Abady or Wellness, with
occasional "treats" of raw muscle and organ meat. So I'm now glad to find information and
experienced advice that both goes better with my intuition, and with what my cats actually
seem to want to eat! I just want to make sure I present them with a good balance of
choices in the best forms.

Would love to hear what people have to say:

1. Is there a FAQ file, especially one with a recommended reading list?

2. There seem to be various opinions online about grinding vs. not grinding bone. For 2
fairly healthy cats with all their teeth, does anyone have any good reasons for grinding
bones? On the other hand, this is the "sticking point" with my cats--they've always
happily dug into raw muscle and organ meat, but have avoided bones. They'll chew on
chicken necks and drag them around the house, but not eat the bones. With transitioning
to a total raw diet, how long is ok for them to be finicky about bones, when do I
(hypothetically) need to start worrying they're not still eating bones? Anyone have any
great tips for transitioning cats to eating bones?

3. Optimal percentages and ratios of nutrients... seems important to be both thoughtful
and relaxed, seems sensible to me not to have every meal identical but to try to average
out percentages over numerous meals. Anybody have a relaxed good rule of thumb for
this, like weekly suggested amounts of different types of meats?

4. I've read such conflicting things about cats and fish, the fishmongers and fearmongers
sure disagree! I know for myself, eating oily fish like salmon, mackerel, sardines etc.
many times a week makes a huge difference in my health on so many levels. The anti-fish
for cats camp never indicates exactly how much fish in the diet it is that would potentially
inhibit feline vitamin B absorption... again, anbyody have a good rule of thumb, like weekly
suggested fish meals? Anybody ever seen a cat harmed by fish?

5. I would find it helpful personally if a couple of experienced people who take the more
relaxed approach about percentages and ratios could describe, say, a sample week's worth
of meals for a cat.

Hmmm, I think that's about it for now. ;-)

Thanks everybody,

Sarah

Messages in this topic (2)
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5b. Re: Newbie with various questions
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:28 pm ((PDT))

"sarahfalkner" <Sarah.Falkner@...> wrote:
>> Would love to hear what people have to say:
>
> 1. Is there a FAQ file, especially one with a recommended reading
list?
*****
No.
You can get all the info you need from the list archives. I think
you might find RawfedCats <http://www.rawfedcats.org/index.htm>
especially useful. Also consider a sister list to this one--RawCat--
if you want to bask in the single species attention it offers.
Subscribe: rawcat-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Most of the obvious raw feeding books focus on dogs and the few that
address cats seem to get all caught up in trying to feed grains and
veggies to cats (as you pointed out).

> 2. There seem to be various opinions online about grinding vs.
not grinding bone. For 2
> fairly healthy cats with all their teeth, does anyone have any good
reasons for grinding
> bones?
*****
Other than for exceedingly toothless cats and for the purposes of
transitioning, there's no reason to grind. Grinding defeats two of
the truly great virtues of whole raw food--achieving and maintaining
oral health. Do not grind unless you absolutely have to.

With transitioning
> to a total raw diet, how long is ok for them to be finicky about
bones, when do I
> (hypothetically) need to start worrying they're not still eating
bones? Anyone have any
> great tips for transitioning cats to eating bones?
*****
Ha! As long as it takes. My two cats took immediately and joyfully
to raw but I hear tell that's highly unusual. You CAN transition a
cat to a whole raw diet but you have to be more patient and cunning
than they are. Again, consider joining RawCat, if only for the
archives.

> 3. Anybody have a relaxed good rule of thumb for
> this, like weekly suggested amounts of different types of meats?
*****
I apparently feed my cat all wrong, but it seems to be working okay
for her. Mostly I just give her a small chunk of whatever meat the
dogs are getting (except for store bought beef that doesn't sit well
at all), plus a chicken neck or a whole quail or a turkey neck or a
whole sardine (not in the same meal of course but perhaps sometimes
in the same day). I give her bits of heart and kidney and spleen
(she loves it all) and from time to time she gets a pork should blade
bone to clean up after my pup has finished cleaning it up.

The only guidelines I give myself are to feed more red meat than
white, to feed meaty bones several meals a week and not to leave
thawing body parts where she can get at them.

It takes zero rules of thumb if you can feed whole prey. That's
easiest: get XX, feed it. No weighing, no measuring.

> 4. The anti-fish
> for cats camp never indicates exactly how much fish in the diet it
is that would potentially
> inhibit feline vitamin B absorption... again, anbyody have a good
rule of thumb, like weekly
> suggested fish meals? Anybody ever seen a cat harmed by fish?
*****
I don't consider fish mandatory and I know there's the thiamine
deficiency issue to worry about, but if your cat is keen on fish and
you feed fish occasionally as one of a variety of proteins, I don't
believe it's a problem. I've certainly read of cats with thiamine
deficiency but I can't say I've met one up close and personal. I'm
sure others will have more and better information.

> 5. I would find it helpful personally if a couple of experienced
people who take the more
> relaxed approach about percentages and ratios could describe, say,
a sample week's worth
> of meals for a cat.
*****
Other than my thumb rules as listed above, I've never worried about
percentages and ratios. More meat than bone; more red meat than
white; squidgy ick organs when I remember and certainly when I am
feeding same to the dogs. Again, I imagine others will contribute
here, and you probably should join RawCat.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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6a. Re: Poo less, pee more
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:26 pm ((PDT))

Couldn't he be peeing more since his food has a much higher water
content now? I would venture a guess that most non-raw dogs are
dehydrated to some degree. They are designed to get most of their
water from their food, and when they're on cooked food (kibble or
canned), there's much less water in the food.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> "doreenchui" <doreenchui@> wrote:
> >
> > I noticed that since my whippet started on raw, he poo much much
> lesser
> > but pee much more.
> *****
> Pooping less is appropriate since you are feeding more digestible
> food. But there's no reason for him to be peeing more unless you are
> regularly feeding him highly salted food. If his diet is minimally
> processed with no added salt and he's not getting salt from other
> sources, you may want to discuss this issue with a vet.
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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6b. Re: Poo less, pee more
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:36 pm ((PDT))

"Laurie Swanson" <laurie@...> wrote:
>
> Couldn't he be peeing more since his food has a much higher water
> content now? I would venture a guess that most non-raw dogs are
> dehydrated to some degree. They are designed to get most of their
> water from their food, and when they're on cooked food (kibble or
> canned), there's much less water in the food.
*****
Well possibly but I don't recall my dogs increasing their peeing when
switched to raw and I don't recall significant list focus on the issue
overall. Seems to me that if dietary water were the cause, other
people would have noticed an increase as well.

It would be my entirely off-hand guess that dietary water is less than
the supplemental water drunk by kibblefed dogs.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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7a. Re: Constipation
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:26 pm ((PDT))

It varies w/the dog and what/how often they're fed. Mine gets fed once
a day or every other day and goes about the same--usually once a day,
sometimes every other day, occasionally more or less.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Cheryl <parkbunny@...> wrote:
>
> since feeding raw changes the stooling, how often do they go when on
> this type of plan.???
> Cheryl
>
>

Messages in this topic (23)
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7b. Re: Constipation
Posted by: "Cheryl" parkbunny@verizon.net vessels13
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:23 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: REMEMBER TO SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.***

someone said to get a back, leg, and you say these aren't high meat
parts... I just started, out the gate cleanI think wednesday was my
first day here. So... This is all new to me. I'm not sure I agree on
net getting vegetables but yet, "m new. I have to learn why not some
veggies i.e. carrots or potatoes. If raw is raw then how come there
is so much to talk about when it appears as simple as give em a leg
or some other animal and you're all set???

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> Cheryl,
>
> You are going to have to think about ratios a *little* bit or you
are going
> to end up feeding far too much bone. The majority of the diet
needs to be

Messages in this topic (23)
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7c. Re: Constipation
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:41 pm ((PDT))

Cheryl, it is as simple as handing out pieces and parts...but the parts you
are feeding or thinking about feeding (wings and backs) don't have enough
meat so eventually you need to add meat and organs. If you look at the
natural diet of a carnivore, it is mostly meat....and no veggies!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Cheryl" <parkbunny@verizon.net>
someone said to get a back, leg, and you say these aren't high meat
parts... I just started, out the gate cleanI think wednesday was my
first day here. So... This is all new to me. I'm not sure I agree on
net getting vegetables but yet, "m new. I have to learn why not some
veggies i.e. carrots or potatoes. If raw is raw then how come there
is so much to talk about when it appears as simple as give em a leg
or some other animal and you're all set???

Messages in this topic (23)
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8. Windfall
Posted by: "halojo45" hanne@hajo.us halojo45
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:26 pm ((PDT))

Just have to share :
When picking up fresh tongue from the slaughter house, I was able to
score about 10 (TEN) hogs' heads (free of charge) . Shared with a
neighbor, who also raw feeds his St.Bernards (also a list member).
My Berner boy, very satisfied and panting after his feast, left only
the jaw and teeth. My Pyr girl is lying right beside her crate, still
guarding her left-overs.
My heart welled with joy watching these two beasts attack the
heads ....
Hanne

Messages in this topic (1)
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9a. Re: older dog
Posted by: "Cheryl" parkbunny@verizon.net vessels13
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:04 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.***

I have nature's variety also. Can't we use it for the vegetable that
is in there? and convenience? Like tonight. I'm at work and won't
get home until11:30. I have the NV and I can thaw one of those
medallions out pretty quick. I have no raw meat in the fridge... I
don't have a senior pet either. Does age have any thing to do with
raw feeding or how much? or what to add,

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> Stop Nature's Variety, hand him a chicken part. If you think there
is going
> to be a problem because of age, begin with small meals. I wouldn't
consider

Messages in this topic (11)
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9b. Re: older dog
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:16 pm ((PDT))

Why would you want to feed vegetables to a carnivore? It's just as
convenient to feed a chicken quarter!

I don't think age has much to do with anything.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Cheryl" <parkbunny@verizon.net>

Messages in this topic (11)
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10a. Looking for excellent summary post....
Posted by: "woofwoofgrrl" cmc4lists1@gastrounit.com woofwoofgrrl
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:24 pm ((PDT))

Sometime within the last month, somebody wrote up an amazing description
of the prey model diet.
It had more than just ratios and percentages, and it was beautifully
concise and well written. I've searched through the
archives and I can't find it. If someone else remembers this post,
could you please sent the link?

Thanks!
Christine

Messages in this topic (2)
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10b. Re: Looking for excellent summary post....
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:29 pm ((PDT))

It was great, wasn't it? So great, I saved it.....
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/135764

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "woofwoofgrrl" <cmc4lists1@gastrounit.com>

> Sometime within the last month, somebody wrote up an amazing description
> of the prey model diet.
> It had more than just ratios and percentages, and it was beautifully
> concise and well written. I've searched through the
> archives and I can't find it. If someone else remembers this post,
> could you please sent the link?

Messages in this topic (2)
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11a. Re: protein percentage?
Posted by: "tinybabypony" bethanyfalter@hotmail.com tinybabypony
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:31 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.***

I understand why some of you are reluctant to mention to your vet(s)
that you feed a raw diet. However, the more healthy raw-fed pets people
in the veterinary profession see, the more comfortable and supportive
they may become of it. If the only folks that mention they are feeding
raw are the ones who are there with an illness such as GI upset, as
someone mentioned, that will be their frame of reference for raw fed
pets. Change is slow and difficult, but the more good examples they see
of raw-fed pets, the better, IMO.

Just my humble little opinion.

Messages in this topic (11)
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12a. Re: missing stuff in diet
Posted by: "emdeefa" mdevlin@aisle10.net emdeefa
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:33 pm ((PDT))

so I was at the grocery store tonight (Market Basket) and apparantly I
wasnt looking hard enough. Actually, I really am not sure how I missed
all this stuff.

For organs, aside from the chicken livers, they had beef liver, beef
kidney, beef heart, and tripe. So it looks like until I find a better
place that I can at least get some variety. I got some beef kidney,
and hopefully he likes it.

I wrote down the cuts of beef/pork that seemed affordable, and was
just searching through the list archives to see whats ok.

They had pork necks, but from what I read in the archives, pork necks
are only ok if they are big? because sometimes they are cut into small
triangles? the necks I saw looked real big, does that mean they are
ok? they looked like they were easily the size of my dogs head (like 2
fists put together in size).

I got pork spare ribs and pork chops. From what I was reading, spare
ribs dont have enough meat, and the pork chops have bones that are too
small? so I was thinking that if I gave a pork chop (with the bone
removed) with a rib or two, that would even things out right? The ribs
seemed plenty big and I think he will love to pick the meat off of them.

Then after a couple days, throw in one of the chicken theighs I have
to get some bone since he cant actually eat the rib bones right?

Some other cuts of meat i saw that seemed cheap were beef chuck roast
and pork butts. Anything special I should know about them?

what about beef feet? should those be considered more like a treat
than a part of a meal? They also had oxtail but from how it was
packaged, it looked like a big 2 pound square. I am assuming its all
sliced up in smaller pieces, which would mean its not safe for him to
eat and it should be avoided right?

these bones scare the crap out of me.

last thing. So i should avoid the tripe since it was the white kind,
right?

Thanks for everyones help. I'll get this eventually.
-Mike

Messages in this topic (18)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

13a. In memory of Harley 10/26/97 thru 07/27/07
Posted by: "cornerstone_bullmastiffs" cornerstone_bullmastiffs@yahoo.com cornerstone_bullmastiffs
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:49 pm ((PDT))

Dear Harley,

Momma's gonna miss you, you precious girl. I have never had anyone
love me as unconditionally as you have over the past 10yrs of your
beautiful life. You have taught me more about life than any school
book or classroom. The world would be a better place if more people
were like you. You were there for me through my first marriage, my
divorce, moving to Peru and then to Tennessee and then getting
married again. You took it all with quiet strength and grace and
stood beside me and loved me through it all, even when I didn't
deserve it. I will never have children and you were the closest I'll
ever have. We have shared so much joy and laughter over the years and
have even shared a few tears. You are my heart and soul and my best
friend. The void your absence has left will never be filled, Harley.
I love you so much. It only been a few hours since you went to be
with God and my heart aches to see you again. The house feels empty
and you weren't there to greet me at the door. I already miss the way
your fur feels and even your smell. I miss the way you get so excited
to see me the you fall over and do a happy dance. If only humans
could communicate that well..... I take comfort in knowing you are
not in anymore more pain and you have no allergies and you can
breathe! Best of you don't have to take anymore pills! I find it no
coincedence that the word DOG is GOD spelled backwards. You were the
mirror image of everything He stands for: strength, grace, love,
forgiveness......I thank God for every moment spent with you Boo-
bear. What a blessing you have been to me. God sent me an Angel here
on earth and it came with brown fur and four legs. I can't thank Him
enough for sharing you with me. I can't wait to see you again. Some
day I know you'll meet me at the pearly gates! Momma loves you Baby
girl!!
Your Momma,
Cheryl

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

13b. Re: In memory of Harley 10/26/97 thru 07/27/07
Posted by: "michael@brooksweb.org" michael@brooksweb.org newyawkyanx
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:50 pm ((PDT))

here are thoughts of comfort for you
-michael

On Sat, 28 Jul 2007 00:58:44 -0000, cornerstone_bullmastiffs wrote
> Dear Harley,
>
> Momma's gonna miss you, you precious girl. I have never had anyone
> love me as unconditionally as you have over the past 10yrs of your
> beautiful life. You have taught me more about life than any school
> book or classroom. The world would be a better place if more people
> were like you. You were there for me through my first marriage, my
> divorce, moving to Peru and then to Tennessee and then getting
> married again. You took it all with quiet strength and grace and
> stood beside me and loved me through it all, even when I didn't
> deserve it. I will never have children and you were the closest I'll
> ever have. We have shared so much joy and laughter over the years and
> have even shared a few tears. You are my heart and soul and my best
> friend. The void your absence has left will never be filled, Harley.
> I love you so much. It only been a few hours since you went to be
> with God and my heart aches to see you again. The house feels empty
> and you weren't there to greet me at the door. I already miss the way
> your fur feels and even your smell. I miss the way you get so excited
> to see me the you fall over and do a happy dance. If only humans
> could communicate that well..... I take comfort in knowing you are
> not in anymore more pain and you have no allergies and you can
> breathe! Best of you don't have to take anymore pills! I find it no
> coincedence that the word DOG is GOD spelled backwards. You were the
> mirror image of everything He stands for: strength, grace, love,
> forgiveness......I thank God for every moment spent with you Boo-
> bear. What a blessing you have been to me. God sent me an Angel here
> on earth and it came with brown fur and four legs. I can't thank Him
> enough for sharing you with me. I can't wait to see you again. Some
> day I know you'll meet me at the pearly gates! Momma loves you Baby
> girl!!
> Your Momma,
> Cheryl
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

14.1. Re: Chicken feet
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:10 pm ((PDT))

Marilyn Neil <ems1classic@...> wrote:
>
> Sounds like a horror story, how can you watch?
*****
I dunno. Doesn't seem horrible to me. The foot is quite dead, quite
detatched from the rest of the bird, which is also dead. No worse I
don't think than eating the heads off Animal Crackers.

Hmmm, maybe there's a connection.

Some of the NOVA footage of big cats tackling zebras etc. is more
grotesque, IMO. Although the big cats are more elegant and graceful in
attack mode than my silly cat is.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (27)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11850

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Buffalo Heart
From: Carol
1b. Re: Buffalo Heart
From: susan/foxfire
1c. Re: Buffalo Heart
From: Ross Senger

2a. Re: Chicken is working
From: Sandee Lee

3a. Re: older dog
From: Sandee Lee
3b. older dog
From: Shannon Hully
3c. Re: older dog
From: Marjorie Trebino
3d. Re: older dog
From: Shannon Parker

4a. Re: fresh meat
From: Sandee Lee

5a. Re: rawfeeding
From: Sandee Lee
5b. Re: rawfeeding
From: susan/foxfire

6a. Re: cooked bones
From: Nathalie Poulin

7a. Re: Another (less severe) vomiting question
From: Erica Mills

8a. Re: protein percentage?
From: Nathalie Poulin

9a. Re: Okay, how much diarreha is too much for a 9 week GS pup?
From: Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com

10a. Re: muscles building
From: Tina Berry

11a. Re: Chicken feet
From: Marilyn Neil

12a. Re: Constipation
From: Cheryl
12b. Re: Constipation
From: Sandee Lee
12c. Re: Constipation
From: Ross Senger

13a. Tell me about 'tripe'
From: pvojtas
13b. Re: Tell me about 'tripe'
From: outcats4@aol.com
13c. Re: Tell me about 'tripe'
From: Goin8@aol.com

14a. How much
From: rbmc1231937

15a. Re: Vomiting up all raw food?
From: Ross Senger

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Buffalo Heart
Posted by: "Carol" onejoyfulmoose@yahoo.com onejoyfulmoose
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:12 am ((PDT))

A friday Smile

Just feed Buffalo Heart to my 2 Leos last night. The bitch loved it
and the male said No Way Mom. I tried cutting it into smaller chunks,
hand feeding and he'd take it, roll it around in his mouth and lay it
back down at my feet.

Even though I found a good supplier who'll ship, guess I won't get it
again.

Carol
Owned by 2 Leos in Ohio

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Buffalo Heart
Posted by: "susan/foxfire" fxfireob@mac.com thadnsusan
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:24 pm ((PDT))

Try dehydrating it. Our dogs, an 8 yo GSD & 9 mo Great Pry, are moody
eaters and when they refuse raw and wet offal we dehydrate it and
they gobble it up. I love Leos :)

hth,
Susan

On Fri, 27 Jul 2007, at 12:48 PM, Carol wrote:

> A friday Smile
>
> Just feed Buffalo Heart to my 2 Leos last night. The bitch loved it
> and the male said No Way Mom. I tried cutting it into smaller chunks,
> hand feeding and he'd take it, roll it around in his mouth and lay it
> back down at my feet.
>
> Even though I found a good supplier who'll ship, guess I won't get it
> again.
>
> Carol
> Owned by 2 Leos in Ohio
>

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: Buffalo Heart
Posted by: "Ross Senger" rosssenger@shaw.ca rosssenger
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:23 pm ((PDT))

> Just feed Buffalo Heart to my 2 Leos last night. The bitch loved it
> and the male said No Way Mom.

I feed my two Danes Buffalo Heart all the time, it took a few days
of "refeeding" to give them the idea they were suppose to eat it, but
one they got the idea they were fine.

On a side note, introdue the heart slowly, some dogs cant handle a full
heart meal right away. I had some really poopy problems when I first
started feeding heart in quantity.

-Ross S

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Chicken is working
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:30 am ((PDT))

Great...now you need to get her something with more meat. Wings are far too
bony.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Cheryl" <parkbunny@verizon.net>

So, when I got
> done doing the dishes feeding him. .. what do I find?? Rayna had gone
> BACK in her crate to eat her other piece of chicken wing. now that!!!!!
> I love. !!!!! love it.. looooovvvvvvit.. !!!! lol

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: older dog
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:38 am ((PDT))

Stop Nature's Variety, hand him a chicken part. If you think there is going
to be a problem because of age, begin with small meals. I wouldn't consider
a small breed a senior at 8 1/2...I switched my most recent Dane rescue when
he was 7 with no problems.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "doreenchui" <doreenchui@yeos.com>

I have a 8 1/2 yr old mini schnauzer who is on nature variety.
How do I start him on raw?
Any issue on starting one that's already a senior?

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. older dog
Posted by: "Shannon Hully" summerwolf@theherbalhotline.com bluehankw
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:57 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Doris Siefker" <dks7@...> wrote:
>
> I have a 8 1/2 yr old mini schnauzer who is on nature variety.
> How do I start him on raw?
> Any issue on starting one that's already a senior?
> Doreen

I started my 12 year old GSD with a digestive disease on raw a few
months ago and it did wonders for him. It made his final months much
more pleasurable for him. I only wish I'd made the switch much
earlier! (not implying he'd still be here if I had, just that he
enjoyed eating so much once I switched him I felt guilty for having
been afraid to try it for so long)

Shannon

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

3c. Re: older dog
Posted by: "Marjorie Trebino" mtrebino39@hotmail.com marjoriettt
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:24 pm ((PDT))

Hi Shannon
I am really really new to this list but I can tell you my experience. I
have 3 old old english. Two are 12 years old and one is 11 and a border
collie that is 4. I tried to switch them all over. One 12 year old and my
11 year old and of course the BC took to it like it was ice cream. The
other old girl would not eat. So I tried searing the meat. Still no go. I
tried cooking hamburger with just a small amount of raw. I tried cooking
ground turkey with just a small amout of raw. She just wanted her kibble.
She would eat raw egg though and loved that. I have not been feeding raw
for to long and I would offer her a bit of raw this and that. She now gets
her herbs in raw hamburger meat. She must have decided the other dogs were
getting something she wasnt. She will eat a small piece of raw steak still
won't touch liver or chicken but this morning I gave all the dogs a turkey
drum stick. I had planned on giving my big dog two but gave it to my old
girl and she ate a good part of the leg but left most of the meat. I am not
sure if she will live long enough to get to raw but at least I know she is
getting some really good stuff along with her kibble. She has a lot of
health issues so I was not willing to wait her out although I did not feed
her for one full day. Just did not feel her body could go longer without
food. I really feel good that my dogs are eathing raw and this
weekendeveryone was talking about how great my BC's coat looked. Must be
the raw I have not changed anything else. margie

>From: "Shannon Hully" <summerwolf@theherbalhotline.com>
>Reply-To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
>To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [rawfeeding] Re:older dog
>Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 18:33:42 -0000
>
>--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Doris Siefker" <dks7@...> wrote:
> >
> > I have a 8 1/2 yr old mini schnauzer who is on nature variety.
> > How do I start him on raw?
> > Any issue on starting one that's already a senior?
> > Doreen
>
>I started my 12 year old GSD with a digestive disease on raw a few
>months ago and it did wonders for him. It made his final months much
>more pleasurable for him. I only wish I'd made the switch much
>earlier! (not implying he'd still be here if I had, just that he
>enjoyed eating so much once I switched him I felt guilty for having
>been afraid to try it for so long)
>
>Shannon
>

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

3d. Re: older dog
Posted by: "Shannon Parker" mrbatisse@yahoo.ca mrbatisse
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:20 pm ((PDT))

Hi Doreen,

I switched my 12 year old greyhound, and 8 year old Argentine dogo to raw 8 and 4 months ago respectively and had no problems. I switched them both cold turkey (so to speak) and neither of them had any problems with the adjustment. They both went through a "detox" period, having mucous in the stools and runny eyes, etc...but that only lasted a couple of weeks and they are doing wonderfully. I started the Greyhound on a ready made raw diet consisting of veggies and meat, and after getting much needed advice from this list, I switched her to raw meat, bones and organ only...and a bit of egg. They Dogo was switched directly to prey model and he's doing wonderfully. His coat went from sparse and dry to full, soft and he is shedding much less!

Ditch the Natures Variety right away and give him the good stuff....it's so easy to do!

Shannon

Doris Siefker <dks7@cox.net> wrote:
I have a 8 1/2 yr old mini schnauzer who is on nature variety.
How do I start him on raw?
Any issue on starting one that's already a senior?
Doreen
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Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: fresh meat
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:44 am ((PDT))

No reason to unless you are feeding fresh squirrels or wild rabbits or boar.
Most grocery food meat has already been frozen, but regardless there is no
need to freeze commercial food.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "doreenchui" <doreenchui@yeos.com>

do u need to freeze all meats before feeding?

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: rawfeeding
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:48 am ((PDT))

Greg,

No need to wean...just buy a chicken or two, cut into quarters, hand to
dogs. I feed my Danes chickens halves or whole depending on size, fish,
turkey, pork roasts of various kinds, slabs of ribs, beef cheeks, heart,
tripe, brisket, whole oxtail.
And tongue, liver, kidney and whatever other organs I can find from various
critters. No special menu...whatever I find on sale and is in my freezer
gets fed!

Take a look at Kevin's recipe section....
http://www.RawFedDogs.net/

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Greg Cobb" <gcobb13@yahoo.com>

> I am looking for some ideas and menus for a 2 1/2 f Neo and 12 m Lab mix;
would like to know how fast to ween them from the other stuff; also looking
for some people to let me know what they feed their dogs in the course of a
day and week; cost of rawfeeding.

Messages in this topic (24)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: rawfeeding
Posted by: "susan/foxfire" fxfireob@mac.com thadnsusan
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:24 pm ((PDT))

On Fri, 27 Jul 2007, at 12:10 PM, Greg Cobb wrote:

> I am looking for some ideas and menus for a 2 1/2 f Neo and 12 m
> Lab mix;
We feed once a day with occasional "fasting" day but only if they are
on weight if underweight we don't fast
> would like to know how fast to ween them from the other stuff;
We never weaned instead just stop the old food and give the new.
sometimes they can get diarrhea but we wouldn't get concerned unless
it goes on for more than a 3 or 4 days, because some of it is
necessary detoxing. If it does last we use something to bind like
clay & pectin or you can use a product like these http://
wolfcreekranch1.tripod.com/tummy_trouble.html or http://

www.nativeremedies.com/petalive/petaliverunipoo-pet-diarrhea.html.

My feeling is feeding kibble and raw at the same time you run the
risk of bloat, better to let them work it out and support the body
while making the transition if it needs it.
> also looking for some people to let me know what they feed their
> dogs in the course of a day and week; cost of rawfeeding.
>
> Greg Cobb
>
We buy in bulk and for the most part we eat the same meats as our
dogs eat. We try having at least 3 different meats in rotation at any
one time. Right now we have beef, chicken, pork, lamb, goat, buffalo
& salmon, and try and keep any one meat source as no more than 1/3 of
their diet. If we do end up with lots of one meat and feed only one
meat we try and not feed it more then a few months then dropping it
or dramatically reduce for a few months.

We feed about 2% adult body wt (more if your dogs are working high
energy output dogs; less if they seem to have a slower metabolism)
and it costs on average about $2/lb. but it depends on your sources
chicken is clearly cheapest - we pay about $.60/lb for natural raise;
and meats like goat can be as much as $3.50 or more; and if you buy
commercially raised or natural, pastured or grass-fed meats the price
will greatly effect the price as does buying in large amounts or small.

hth,
Susan

Messages in this topic (24)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: cooked bones
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:55 am ((PDT))

There shouldn't really be any "recipes" that you need
for raw feeding.
Raw feeding is EXACTLY that, RAW.
Grab a chicken, a chunk of pork/beef/lam/goat/rabbit
and give it to your dog. That's it.
Anything regarding "recipes" usually (from my
understanding) includes either pressure cooking, rice,
yogurt, pumpkin, grain-based oils, fruits and veggies.
ALL of which are species inappropriate for dogs.

Stick to raw, and don't worry about the rest.

Nathalie

there are recipes I see
> people feeding that
> use the pressure cooker and they say those bones are
> okay? Why is that?

Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Re: Another (less severe) vomiting question
Posted by: "Erica Mills" millser25@yahoo.com millser25
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:56 am ((PDT))

My GSD ended up getting EPI, which is actually genetic in the breed, at 18 months. It can come up at any age in dogs.

Thanks Shannon,
What is EPI?
Erica

__._,

---------------------------------
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Re: protein percentage?
Posted by: "Nathalie Poulin" poulin_nathalie@yahoo.ca poulin_nathalie
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:58 am ((PDT))

Just for the record, I'm pretty sure that vets ask
what you feed your dog because that opens a way for
them to make more money by pushing whatever dog food
they have at their office.
Since most people believe/trust blindly, they'll buy
their dogs whatever food is "best" for them,
especially if it's backed by a vet.

Luckily for all of us, however, we know better not to
be fooled by any of their shananigans!

Nathalie

> It's seriously none of your vet's business what
> you're feeding. You are
> paying him to diagnose a problem. Or even for
> regular wellness visits and
> checkups (which we don't do).

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Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. Re: Okay, how much diarreha is too much for a 9 week GS pup?
Posted by: "Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com" Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com irishcateyes1
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:59 am ((PDT))

Thanks Chris! Will do! Tamatha :)

Any dog can teach a child responsibility and commitment.

A German Shepherd Dog will show the child the meaning
of dedication.

"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life,
his love, his leader. He will be yours faithful and true, to the last beat of
his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion." --Unknown

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at

http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. Re: muscles building
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:59 am ((PDT))

"What type of meat is good for musle building? Beef or venison?"

Based on my recent experience VENISON. I just ran out and switched to beef
from my butcher (way too fatty for summer) and my bunch put on FAT
(slightly) but enough to notice. So right now mine are on whole chickens
until I can get venison in Sept. Major difference unless you are really
really giving them a work out - mine swim for 30 minutes daily in a very
swift moving river and although I know could have just cut back on the beef
intake, I like the leaness of venison way better.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11a. Re: Chicken feet
Posted by: "Marilyn Neil" ems1classic@btinternet.com marilyn9751
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:02 pm ((PDT))

Sounds like a horror story, how can you watch?

costrowski75 <Chriso75@AOL.COM> wrote:
I give one foot to my cat for a treat and though sometimes she eats the
whole thing, usually she nibbles the toes down to the stub. And leaves
the stub. Whatever the stub is called. Foot?
Chris O

Ems xxx

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (26)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12a. Re: Constipation
Posted by: "Cheryl" parkbunny@verizon.net vessels13
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:10 pm ((PDT))

oh boy Jeni, tweak it eh? aggggg. okay. I don't know about ratios yet
so please don't throw that in there. Let me get my feet wet with the
idea of the chicken backs and when. Then we can go on ratio. I hope I
really don't have to do that. I hate math. I just want to take a hunk of
meat or what ever, add veggies and go. lol KISS for me.
I'm counting this chicken piece and a Natures Variety breakfast.
Cheryl

John and Jeni Blackmon wrote:
> No.
> Boy, you ask easy questions:)
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (20)
________________________________________________________________________

12b. Re: Constipation
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:00 pm ((PDT))

Cheryl,

You are going to have to think about ratios a *little* bit or you are going
to end up feeding far too much bone. The majority of the diet needs to be
meat...right now you are feeding wings and talking about backs, both of
which are far too bony. Plus I would just about guarantee that Nature's
Variety is high in bone and thus lacking in meat and fat.

It is really simple, but you need to keep in mind that close to 80% should
be meat, only 10% edible bone and 10% organs....no veggies! You don't
really have to weigh and get carried away with ratios...just look at the
food and make sure it is a tiny bit of bone slathered in lots of nice meat!
A chicken breast would be a better example of a meaty bone than a back or
wing...it is about 20% bone.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Cheryl" <parkbunny@verizon.net>

> oh boy Jeni, tweak it eh? aggggg. okay. I don't know about ratios yet
> so please don't throw that in there. Let me get my feet wet with the
> idea of the chicken backs and when. Then we can go on ratio. I hope I
> really don't have to do that. I hate math. I just want to take a hunk of
> meat or what ever, add veggies and go. lol KISS for me.
> I'm counting this chicken piece and a Natures Variety breakfast.

Messages in this topic (20)
________________________________________________________________________

12c. Re: Constipation
Posted by: "Ross Senger" rosssenger@shaw.ca rosssenger
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:27 pm ((PDT))

> I'm having the opposite problem that most of the
> others who just made the switch seem to be having.
> Harley has been really constipated yesterday and
> today.

I had the same problem with my Danes to begin with. My older Dane (1
year 9 months now) actually wasent able to push it out... got stuck
half way... he ran over to me with a hunched back whining for help. I
had to grab some toilet paper and assist :P

I have learned since that the proper amount of organs (%5 kidney, %5
liver) is really important. And if you are really worred about
constipation give them a feed of liver and stand back!

I now bag up organs in small ziploc bags with one days ration in
them. Unthaw and feew one bag per dog per day.

Hope that helps,

-Ross S

Messages in this topic (20)
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________________________________________________________________________

13a. Tell me about 'tripe'
Posted by: "pvojtas" pam.vojtas@datacore.com pvojtas
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:25 pm ((PDT))

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

13b. Re: Tell me about 'tripe'
Posted by: "outcats4@aol.com" outcats4@aol.com barb5ducks
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:20 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 7/27/2007 4:27:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
pam.vojtas@datacore.com writes:

p.s. Still can't bring myself to buy things I recognize - no chicken
feet

All I know is dont buy the white tripe in the foodstores, its bleached,
processed and acid washed and has basically no nutrient value.

I have been buying chicken feet, but cant get myself to give them to him, so
I boil them up and make a gel like broth. I still cant bear to look at them
in the pot. Im a vegetarian, and I also care for injured ducks, so it makes
some things just really difficult, but i can do gizzards, heart, liver, and
necks - just not duck!

barb

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Messages in this topic (3)
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13c. Re: Tell me about 'tripe'
Posted by: "Goin8@aol.com" Goin8@aol.com menoebs
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:20 pm ((PDT))

Green tripe ...if you buy it you should have another freezer or fridge for
only doggie food. It will make your household food stink and taste like well
....just like it smells. Like Sh!t. If you feed green tripe you need to have a
strong stomach and a bottle of clorox clean up handy because ANYTHING it
touches it will make smell like that and it doesnt come out with just soap n
water.
On the other hand....the dogs LOVE it. Its good for them!

Audrey Johnson

"My Goal in Life is to be the kind of person my dog thinks I am!"

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Messages in this topic (3)
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________________________________________________________________________

14a. How much
Posted by: "rbmc1231937" rbmc1231937@yahoo.com rbmc1231937
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:26 pm ((PDT))

how much tripe with gullet and spleen do I feed a 80 LB Dog to be of
benefit to his healthy diet. It id expensive with the shipping .
Barb&Reily

Messages in this topic (2)
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________________________________________________________________________

15a. Re: Vomiting up all raw food?
Posted by: "Ross Senger" rosssenger@shaw.ca rosssenger
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:33 pm ((PDT))

When I first started my dogs on raw they would eat and swallow too
fast. There bones wouldnt be chewed up enough and they would Vomit. I
justleft them in the room and 99.9% of the time it would be gone within
mins... gross but true. They didnt chew enough the first time and
needed to "re-chew" the food.

As long as they are still pooping, and still seem heathy, they probably
are. Just give them some time to eat or "re-eat", don't hover over
them, some dogs get pretty embarrised when eating.

good luck

-Ross S

Messages in this topic (8)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11849

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. older dog
From: Doris Siefker
1b. Re: older dog
From: nwohiopma

2a. Re: Question from Newbie
From: mwood8402

3a. Re: Constipation
From: Margaret Martell
3b. Re: Constipation
From: Cheryl

4a. Re: missing stuff in diet
From: mwood8402

5. ADMIN:Cooked Bones
From: GWB

6a. Small dogs
From: cosmosis62
6b. Re: Small dogs
From: Kelly
6c. Re: Small dogs
From: Michelle LaFay
6d. Re: Small dogs
From: Cheryl
6e. Re: Small dogs
From: Kelly

7. fresh meat
From: doreenchui

8a. Okay, how much diarreha is too much for a 9 week GS pup?
From: Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com
8b. Re: Okay, how much diarreha is too much for a 9 week GS pup?
From: costrowski75

9a. Re: cooked bones
From: costrowski75

10a. Re: Poo less, pee more
From: costrowski75

11a. Re: protein percentage?
From: Laura Atkinson

12a. Re: Chicken feet
From: Cheryl
12b. Re: Chicken feet
From: Cheryl
12c. Re: Chicken feet
From: costrowski75

13. Chicken is working
From: Cheryl

14a. rawfeeding
From: Greg Cobb
14b. Re: rawfeeding
From: costrowski75

15. muscles building
From: doreenchui

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. older dog
Posted by: "Doris Siefker" dks7@cox.net dksiefker
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:25 am ((PDT))

I have a 8 1/2 yr old mini schnauzer who is on nature variety.
How do I start him on raw?
Any issue on starting one that's already a senior?
Doreen
___

I started my 10 year old collie mix on raw 6 weeks ago and he is doing fine.
I fed mostly chicken and now we are branching out to lamb and beef. He was
also on probiotic the entire time. My vet says switching diets is a little
harder for an older dog, so just keep an eye on him. In the beginning I had
to saute the raw chicken with a little bit of butter because he wouldn't
touch it.
Good luck.

Doris K. Siefker

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Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: older dog
Posted by: "nwohiopma" nwohiopma@yahoo.com nwohiopma
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:23 am ((PDT))

Hi Doreen,

I started my 13 y.o. Collie on raw last November. He suffers from
hypothyroid and mast cell cancer. He also had dry eye, but it went
away after being a raw for a few weeks, as well as his chronic dandruff.

I fed him the same as my 3 youngsters, and he adjusted quicker than
they did. I started with chicken leg quarters. Others here are more
qualified than I am to guide you, but I wouldn't hesitate to switch a
dog to raw due to age.

Candace and the 4 Collies

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "doreenchui" <doreenchui@...> wrote:
>
> I have a 8 1/2 yr old mini schnauzer who is on nature variety.
> How do I start him on raw?
> Any issue on starting one that's already a senior?
> Doreen
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Question from Newbie
Posted by: "mwood8402" mwood8402@hotmail.com mwood8402
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:25 am ((PDT))

If they are maintaining weight on 6-7 oz then it is fine. Personally,
I have to feed my 22 lb Sheltie 12-14 oz per day for him to maintain
weight, so it varies.

Go ahead and feed whole or half chicken. Just take it up when they
have had enough and feed it at the next meal. Hopefully that helps you.

-Melissa W

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "delcaste" <delcaste@...> wrote:
>
> I've been feeding raw now for about 4 months? They will eat ANYTHING.
> I feed twice a day sometimes only once if the portion is big. They're
> 20 & 21 pds so 6 and 7 ounces should do it right? >
> Silvina and the pugs

Messages in this topic (4)
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3a. Re: Constipation
Posted by: "Margaret Martell" zahrammm1@yahoo.com zahrammm1
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:55 am ((PDT))

Cheryl <parkbunny@verizon.net> wrote: Does feeding raw cause constipation?
Cheryl
******
It depends on the dog, it depends on what you're feeding the dog. Too much bone in the diet can cause constipation, which is easily fixed with adding boneless meats or organs if you really need to move things along...but that's for down the road once the dog has been fed raw for a little while and their systems are used to it. Too much too soon can result in runny stools, instead of constipation.
Margaret & Zahra.
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Messages in this topic (17)
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3b. Re: Constipation
Posted by: "Cheryl" parkbunny@verizon.net vessels13
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:08 am ((PDT))

since feeding raw changes the stooling, how often do they go when on
this type of plan.???
Cheryl

Sandee Lee wrote:
> Only if you feed too much bone.
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>
> From: "Cheryl" <parkbunny@verizon.net>
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (17)
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4a. Re: missing stuff in diet
Posted by: "mwood8402" mwood8402@hotmail.com mwood8402
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:55 am ((PDT))

An apology isn't necessary. I guess it's just a semantic thing. I
won't use the term again on this list, since it offends you so much.
My intent is not to offend. Keep in mind that it's hard to sense tone
in an email. Though I certainly got the drift of your community
college crack. I wish you wouldn't be so quick to judge.

-Melissa W

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Morledzep@... wrote:
> Melissa,
>
> i'm not going to appologize.. "low end" to me means second class..
not as
> good.. and even lowly community college students should have a better
vocabulary
> and be able to find less offensive ways to express themselves.
>
> Catherine R. (slapping my wrist so ChrisO won't yell at me)

Messages in this topic (17)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5. ADMIN:Cooked Bones
Posted by: "GWB" chiksika@wowway.com kioqua
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:58 am ((PDT))

cooking bones is a painfully obvious OFF TOPIC discussion.

Take it elsewhere. No posts on that topic will be approved or acceptable.

Questions or comment??

rawfeeding-owner@yahoogroups.com

Please and thank you,

Gerry Brierley=mod guy

Messages in this topic (1)
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________________________________________________________________________

6a. Small dogs
Posted by: "cosmosis62" JLW05@aol.com cosmosis62
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:24 am ((PDT))

My dog is a toy breed. 12 lbs. Anyone able to recommend which raw
meaty bones their small breed dog does best with??
Jan

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

6b. Re: Small dogs
Posted by: "Kelly" kelism@gmail.com vt_stuff
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:08 am ((PDT))

On 7/27/07, cosmosis62 <JLW05@aol.com> wrote:
>
> My dog is a toy breed. 12 lbs. Anyone able to recommend which raw
> meaty bones their small breed dog does best with??

Chicken, duck, quail, rabbit.

Some pork bones might be soft enough and lamb ribs might be.

In other news: Should we have a FAQ? It seems like this question has come
up a lot lately.

Kelly

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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6c. Re: Small dogs
Posted by: "Michelle LaFay" pawsitivelycaring@gmail.com mblafay
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:20 am ((PDT))

My 9lber does just fine with pretty much anything. We feed lots of leg
quarters and she handles these with ease even though she is missing a few
teeth. She will put a good dent in a turkey leg bone and has a blast with
beef and pork ribs. She was tickled pink when we had the deer carcass out
and gave it nearly as many scars as the big dogs did. She probably would
have enjoyed the pork shoulder but she never got that far, it was a pure
meaty meal for her since it was actually as big as her lol. She handles lamb
breast with no trouble.

On 7/27/07, cosmosis62 <JLW05@aol.com> wrote:
>
> My dog is a toy breed. 12 lbs. Anyone able to recommend which raw
> meaty bones their small breed dog does best with??
> Jan
>
>

--
Michelle LaFay
Pawsitively Caring Pet Sitting
http://www.pawsitivelycaring.com
pawsitivelycaring@gmail.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

6d. Re: Small dogs
Posted by: "Cheryl" parkbunny@verizon.net vessels13
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:29 am ((PDT))

where do you all get the different meat products.?? i.e. quail, rabbit?
Where do you live that sells it? do you have to go to an ethnic store
or do you buy them on the internet?

Cheryl.. newbie,... green.. learning.. all that jazz. sorry I was
probably one of the ones that may have asked this question also but If i
am not exposed to these birds, I would not even know to ask.

Kelly wrote:
> On 7/27/07, cosmosis62 <JLW05@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> My dog is a toy breed. 12 lbs. Anyone able to recommend which raw
>> meaty bones their small breed dog does best with??
>>
>
>
> Chicken, duck, quail, rabbit.
>
> Some pork bones might be soft enough and lamb ribs might be.
>
> In other news: Should we have a FAQ? It seems like this question has come
> up a lot lately.
>
>
> Kelly
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

6e. Re: Small dogs
Posted by: "Kelly" kelism@gmail.com vt_stuff
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:55 am ((PDT))

On 7/27/07, Cheryl <parkbunny@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> where do you all get the different meat products.?? i.e. quail, rabbit?
>

I'm in Vermont. We don't have ethnic stores here (I believe we still have
most white population in the country). Quail comes from a local game bird
farm. They have a website and do sell online - I don't know the URL, but if
you google "Cavendish Game Birds" you should find it. They sell quail
breasts for restaurants and then sell the organs/frames/etc for cheap for
dogs. Yes, quail frames are boney...but I like it because it gives variety
to the type of bone they are eating and I can pair it with boneless meat,
tripe, or organs. Rabbit comes from either a local rabbit breeder or some
of the raw dog food places sell them (Bravo! & Omas?). I'd also recommend
the CarnivoreFeed-supplier list (or whatever the spelling is...look for it
on yahoogroups) and they can point you (hopefully) towards local suppliers
or co-ops.

--
Kelly

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Messages in this topic (8)
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________________________________________________________________________

7. fresh meat
Posted by: "doreenchui" doreenchui@yeos.com doreenchui
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:25 am ((PDT))

do u need to freeze all meats before feeding?

Messages in this topic (1)
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8a. Okay, how much diarreha is too much for a 9 week GS pup?
Posted by: "Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com" Hllywoodcaper7@aol.com irishcateyes1
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:26 am ((PDT))

Sambuca is 9 weeks old and has been raw feed for almost 2 weeks now. Well,
he had no diarreha in the beginning for about a week or so. Then I did
something stupid--I feed him different chicken that I noticed after the fact was
enhanced with up to 12% chicken broth--also I bought some liver at the same time
and then gave him . . oh about 2 Tbs--now I know that was way too much. Grrrr.
. anyway, that same day as you can imagine he got explosive diarreha. (I
switched back to the non-enhanced chicken he was eating previously and no more
liver) And this has been going on for three days; today is the fourth day of
it. He drinks water still and like to play, but I am worried this is too long
and maybe there is another issue underlying--perhaps worms etc.

The diarreha was more frequent and sudden in the beginning and now it has
slowed down alot but still explosive at times and no semi-solid or solid at all.
I did notice it is sometimes frothy and other times like water. Once I saw
it was white and all liquid. Sometimes dark; sometimes brown; sometimes
yellowish.

He had a vomitting episode only once during all this. The first time the
vomit was the same color as poop with bone in it and undigested chicken gizzards.
Horrid smell--like poop. I hope this is normal and not a back up. He
vomitted about 6 more times outside in the dark and under the porch so I couldn't
see it all. The last one I did see and it was just the typical yellow bile.
So the last one I was not too concerned.

Since then he hasn't done it again but the diarreha is still here. I did
give him SEBP 2X yesterday and once again this morning. I didn't have any ground
meat so I just mixed it with chicken blood and served it with his chicken
quarter and the other times I just mixed about a 1/2 tsp with a little water and
he lapped it right up. I hoped I did it right. I had been reading this is
the proper dosage but then later I saw someone posted that it should be mixed it
with a cup of water, boiled etc and then giving a 1 tsp. ???

I hope this diarreha is nothing serious and just a result of the two dietary
changes. How long should it last safely? Should I fast him for a day or two?
He already looks like he has lost weight so I hate to not feed him unless it
is for the best.

I am considering taking him to the holistic vet but I don't think she is open
today and each visit is about $160. Again, if this is serious I would take
him in a heartbeat and not think twice but if it is something that just takes
time, I can wait.

Thanks again for everything!!

Tamatha :)

P.S. I posted an email a few days ago to one group and only got one
response. My email gets full alot even when I clean it out a few times a day, so this
may be the problem. So if you responded to me previously I didn't get it and
I appologize for re-sending some of the same questions. :)

Any dog can teach a child responsibility and commitment.

A German Shepherd Dog will show the child the meaning
of dedication.

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Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

8b. Re: Okay, how much diarreha is too much for a 9 week GS pup?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:05 am ((PDT))

Hllywoodcaper7@... wrote:
>
> Sambuca is 9 weeks old and has been raw feed for almost 2 weeks
now. Well,
> he had no diarreha in the beginning for about a week or so. Then I
did
> something stupid--I feed him different chicken that I noticed after
the fact was
> enhanced with up to 12% chicken broth--also I bought some liver at
the same time
> and then gave him . . oh about 2 Tbs--now I know that was way too
much. Grrrr.
> . anyway, that same day as you can imagine he got explosive
diarreha. (I
> switched back to the non-enhanced chicken he was eating previously
and no more
> liver) And this has been going on for three days; today is the
fourth day of
> it. He drinks water still and like to play, but I am worried this
is too long
> and maybe there is another issue underlying--perhaps worms etc.
*****
I doubt this is worms, though it might be other parasites; I doubt it
is a "back up". I don't think you should let this go on longer
assuming it will be okay. It will be okay eventually but he's a
little guy and this has been stressful on him. And you.

Time to see a vet. Don't worry about talking diet; if this problem
is somehow food related (I doubt that too) just say the kid got into
something. The point is to not get bogged down in accusations and
guilt. Get moving proactively now and worry about fault later, if
indeed there's blame to be laid, which I also doubt.

Let us know, okay?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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________________________________________________________________________

9a. Re: cooked bones
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:41 am ((PDT))

Cheryl <parkbunny@...> wrote:
>> Are pressure cooker cooked bones considered a type of cooked bone
that
> should not be fed? if so, there are recipes I see people feeding that
> use the pressure cooker and they say those bones are okay? Why is
that?
*****
Cooked bones are cooked bones. The difference is pressurecooked
chicken bones are wet-processed along with the rest of the bird into an
unrecognizable though edible sludge; bones cooked by any dry method
including being left out lose their moisture and become hard and
brittle and splintery.

People who do not want to feed commercial dog food but are not willing
to feed raw food cook their dogs' meals. Pressurecooking chicken is
one option for them. Chicken bones, AFAIK are the only bones that
safely sludgify; other naturally easy bones like pork do not self-
destruct when pressurecooked.

There's no reason to pressurecook a chicken when feeding a raw diet.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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________________________________________________________________________

10a. Re: Poo less, pee more
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:57 am ((PDT))

"doreenchui" <doreenchui@...> wrote:
>
> I noticed that since my whippet started on raw, he poo much much
lesser
> but pee much more.
*****
Pooping less is appropriate since you are feeding more digestible
food. But there's no reason for him to be peeing more unless you are
regularly feeding him highly salted food. If his diet is minimally
processed with no added salt and he's not getting salt from other
sources, you may want to discuss this issue with a vet.

> When he eats more meat, say 400gm, that is when he is in mood, his
poo
> is soft but when he eats about 150/200gm, his poo is alright.
> Is this correct?
*****
Neither are wrong, let me put it that way. What these results tell
me is that 400g is more food than your dog can comfortably digest.
And that 150/200g is a range he can efficiently process.

Dogs generally can build up to eating big meals (400g instead of
200g) but it's over time, gradually. If your dog should logically be
eating 400g a day, then I'd say feed him two smaller meals to give
him the full nutritional benefit of his food.

Gradually increase the size of one feeding as you gradually decrease
the size of the other meal, until--however long it takes--he's eating
one 400g meal a day.

If ever a 400g meal produces loose stools, go back to two smaller
meals until things stabilize again.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11a. Re: protein percentage?
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:01 am ((PDT))

Tammy,

Congrats on the successful go at the vet's office <grin>. I use a vet
rarely (and you've seen my crew <grin>). I would caution you not to
get too excited about "holistic" vets. Find a vet who's a good
diagnostician and doesn't point fingers at raw as a diagnosis. I use
a vet who's about as allopathic as they come, out in Riverside (Dr.
Butchko if anyone is wondering). However, I don't know that it's ever
really come up what I feed, other than when a health issue may
indicate modifying their diet from time to time. When they prescribe
ABX and other medications, I decline them, explaining that the dogs'
homeopath will treat whatever's going on and they're fine with that.
They always do comment on the healthy appearence of the dogs' coat and
teeth...and then when reminded I feed raw laugh and say "oh, yeah,
you're one of those who don't fund our vacations."

Having a good relationship with a vet who will respect your feeding
and treatment chioces is important. But don't think that a "holistic"
vet is the best you can do. Here in Norco, there's a holistic vet
who's praised to high heavens by his clients. I went to him for about
6 months, when I had a sick girl. When I asked about getting a
rabies exemption letter for her, because obviously she wasn't well
enough to be vaccinated, he said not to worry, the vaccines won't hurt
her. That was my last trip to his office.

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com

Messages in this topic (9)
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________________________________________________________________________

12a. Re: Chicken feet
Posted by: "Cheryl" parkbunny@verizon.net vessels13
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:10 am ((PDT))

okay Jeni,
I'll ask her. lol
Cheryl

John and Jeni Blackmon wrote:
> I would say it's up to the toy poodle. My great danes love the chicken feet, they are like candy here at this house.
> I would ask your dog, and see what it says:)
> Jeni
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (25)
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12b. Re: Chicken feet
Posted by: "Cheryl" parkbunny@verizon.net vessels13
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:21 am ((PDT))

this sounds like fun. thank you. :) how much meat is on one of those
little things though? how many for your 10 pound cat on the chicken feet?
Cheryl

costrowski75 wrote:
> Cheryl <parkbunny@...> wrote:
>
>> I saw chicken feet at my grocery store. Can a toy poodle eat these as
>>
> is?
> *****
> You betcha. Big fun.
> Chris O
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (25)
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12c. Re: Chicken feet
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:12 am ((PDT))

Cheryl <parkbunny@...> wrote:
how much meat is on one of those
> little things though? how many for your 10 pound cat on the chicken
feet?
*****
No meat.
Chicken feet are meat-free.
Nice amount of cartilage though; natural glusosamine.

I give one foot to my cat for a treat and though sometimes she eats the
whole thing, usually she nibbles the toes down to the stub. And leaves
the stub. Whatever the stub is called. Foot?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (25)
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13. Chicken is working
Posted by: "Cheryl" parkbunny@verizon.net vessels13
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:17 am ((PDT))

I have my grandson over while my son had an appointment. Of course the
GS is not used to Rayna as of yet, she's a puppy and he's the 3 year old
tonka toy boy. Destructive. So.. i have to put Rayna in her crate while
he is here when I'm on the computer or otherwise active. So, when I got
done doing the dishes feeding him. .. what do I find?? Rayna had gone
BACK in her crate to eat her other piece of chicken wing. now that!!!!!
I love. !!!!! love it.. looooovvvvvvit.. !!!! lol
Cheryl :-)
--

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14a. rawfeeding
Posted by: "Greg Cobb" gcobb13@yahoo.com gcobb13
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:18 am ((PDT))

I am looking for some ideas and menus for a 2 1/2 f Neo and 12 m Lab mix; would like to know how fast to ween them from the other stuff; also looking for some people to let me know what they feed their dogs in the course of a day and week; cost of rawfeeding.

Greg Cobb

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Messages in this topic (22)
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14b. Re: rawfeeding
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:06 am ((PDT))

Greg Cobb <gcobb13@...> wrote:>
> I am looking for some ideas and menus for a 2 1/2 f Neo and 12 m Lab
mix;
*****
For some visual support please check out http://rawfeddogs.net and
click on the recipes link.

For text support, please browse the list archives. Here's how to join
Yahoogroups so you can access the Rawfeeding message archives:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

You can search with a variety of words, most anything will turn up
something. I recommend you read, read, read. Everything you ask for
has been covered. Often.

would like to know how fast to ween them from the other stuff;
*****
There is no weaning. What you do is ditch the kibble and start feeding
real food. While it is possible to gentle the dog into a fully raw
diet, there is no need to. Generally the gentling is for the human's
sake, not the dog's. My goal when introducing raw is to get the dog
off kibble as quickly as possible.

also looking for some people to let me know what they feed their dogs
in the course of a day and week;
*****
I have a big Lab, two goldens of middling size and a 10mo border
collie. The border collie sort of shares what the cat gets because
they both eat small amounts. Today the big dogs each got a poundish
heap of green tripe, a similarly large heap of beef trim and a chicken
back.

Tomorrow the big dogs will get nothing.

The next day the plan is for lamb breasts, each weighing about three
pounds. Maybe with some lamb trim if I can find it in the freezer.

Haven't thought much past day after tomorrow but there will be whole
chickens in the near future. And a few days ago the big dogs divvied
up a humongous turkey bought for pennies on the dollar postEaster.

cost of rawfeeding.
*****
I shoot for a buck a pound, on average. This means that cheapy stuff
like whole chickens, pork shoulder roasts and closeout meats free up
money to apply to pricey stuff like beef and lamb and goat. If I
worked harder at it I could bring the budget in lower, but I'm good
with this for now.

It's easy! It's fun! It's real food! Do it!
Chris O

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15. muscles building
Posted by: "doreenchui" doreenchui@yeos.com doreenchui
Date: Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:44 am ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.***

What type of meat is good for musle building? Beef or venison?

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