[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12311

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. New to this group
From: Sai Simonson
1b. Re: New to this group
From: Sandee Lee

2.1. Re: Introduction
From: Cathy
2.2. Re: Introduction
From: Sandee Lee
2.3. Re: Introduction/ SANDEE
From: Cathy
2.4. Re: Introduction
From: carnesbill
2.5. Re: Introduction/ SANDEE
From: Sandee Lee
2.6. Re: Introduction/ SANDEE
From: Sandee Lee
2.7. Re: Introduction
From: costrowski75

3a. IN FRANCE: need advice
From: Michal Cline
3b. Re: IN FRANCE: need advice
From: Giselle

4a. Re: Bacteria and raw feeding.
From: Cathy

5a. Red Meats?
From: blue eyed
5b. Red Meats?
From: blue eyed
5c. Re: Red Meats?
From: Sandee Lee

6a. Planning for Raw Feeding
From: luvsfreedom3
6b. Re: Planning for Raw Feeding
From: Sandee Lee
6c. Re: Planning for Raw Feeding
From: carnesbill
6d. Re: Planning for Raw Feeding
From: luvsfreedom3
6e. Re: Planning for Raw Feeding
From: luvsfreedom3
6f. Re: Planning for Raw Feeding
From: Sandee Lee
6g. Re: Planning for Raw Feeding
From: carnesbill

7a. Preparing Quail
From: glamour.cupcakes
7b. Re: Preparing Quail
From: Casey Post

8a. Re: Newbie, question about hungry dog.
From: Giselle

Messages
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1a. New to this group
Posted by: "Sai Simonson" saiczarina@comcast.net keikokat
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:39 pm ((PST))

Hi,
My name is Sai.
I am on a few raw groups and this one seems to have a lot of ideas.
It was particularly interesting in the notes from Jane, the moderator,
that since dogs are ahem, tamed wolves which do not eat the whole prey
animal when life is good, then perhaps we do not need to get all worried
about supplements??

I have been feeding modified raw (one meal each day all raw, the other
gasp! kibble) for about 10 years to a total of 4 Borzoi and 4 cats. The
raw eating cats are no longer with me. The 2 current Borzoi have been
on total raw since July. I have done grinding of the raw chicken thighs
with addition of "Better in the Raw", but am now rethinking if
supplements are needed.

Basic diet is turkey necks for a morning snack. Toss em 3-4 chicken
thighs for dinner. Put a few chicken gizzards, hearts and liver in a
dish. The offer the after dinner beef knuckle bones. Have toyed with
rabbit until the supplier wanted to know if I wanted them dispatched or
not and I cowered.

There are plenty of live squirrels in the yard and tons of doves. We
did see one dove with only feathers remaining which made us wonder about
Tasha.

Sai Simonson in Oregon

--
*~~ SaiCzarina*

Messages in this topic (7)
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1b. Re: New to this group
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:42 pm ((PST))

Hi Sai,

When feeding a prey model there is generally not a need for supplements, but
that would mean you need to add some variety and red meat to your diet! :))
If you look at the natural diet of a carnivore, it consists mainly of large
ungulates....red meat, 80% meat, only about 10% edible bone and 10% organs.

Sounds like your dogs have adjusted to poultry just fine so time to begin
adding in variety in body parts, protein sources and lots more meat....pork,
beef, venison, fish, goat, lamb....whatever you can get your hands on!

Oh, and no need to grind...let them get the tooth/gum cleaning action they
require from chewing nice large chunks. Knuckle bones are not going to do
that and are known for breaking and wearing down teeth.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Sai Simonson" <saiczarina@comcast.net>
>
> I have been feeding modified raw (one meal each day all raw, the other
> gasp! kibble) for about 10 years to a total of 4 Borzoi and 4 cats. The
> raw eating cats are no longer with me. The 2 current Borzoi have been
> on total raw since July. I have done grinding of the raw chicken thighs
> with addition of "Better in the Raw", but am now rethinking if
> supplements are needed.
>
> Basic diet is turkey necks for a morning snack. Toss em 3-4 chicken
> thighs for dinner. Put a few chicken gizzards, hearts and liver in a
> dish. The offer the after dinner beef knuckle bones. Have toyed with
> rabbit until the supplier wanted to know if I wanted them dispatched or
> not and I cowered.

Messages in this topic (7)
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2.1. Re: Introduction
Posted by: "Cathy" batcathy@sbcglobal.net batcathy2002
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:39 pm ((PST))

Thankyou Bill & Chris both-
our typical diet consits of chicken backs+additional meat
pork neck + meat
chicken necks
chicken thigh
chicken leg
turkey neck
mackeral or tuna
frozen smelt- hot day
ground turkey every other day to off set bone with added yougart,dash of pumpkin
rabbit when available
we also get liver twice a week
beef heart sliced as a treat
to all of this i add eggs occasionally- small carrotts or green beans as a treat -as they like it
Only suppliment is fish oil & tad of olive oil ( Dinky gets digestive enzymes daily)
Now for Dinky- she was very small, almost died & i syringe fed her for 10 days.....she will eat fine for a few weeks and then start to cry ,hunch down and run to hide...refuses to eat and than ends up with runs..if it goes on for a couple days we get mucas tinged with blood.
Vet gives her flagyl & pancur for 10 days.........she improves and a month or so later same thing. I asked about coccidia- no / gardia-no ...
Vet had me take her off raw so I cooked chicken & rice- slight improvement also Vet ID- she didnt like it..........she refuses to eat while others have raw so i tried all on the best I could find- am not happy- Dogs not happy- always hungry...
I have put them all back to raw - starting with just chicken again for a week or so.
They dont do well on beef- all get runs - Lamb they threw up...so - where do I go from here?
She is under weight- coat is very dry & brittle....other wise healthy & playful.
Vet suggested I give her malox or equilivent before i feed her......she fights it!
I have tried to envision what they would eat in nature & as 10lb toys I can see why beef & large animal meat upsets them.
Does this help so we can tweak her?
Thanks- Cathy

C Richmond
Lesmar's CC
Battle Creek, Mi.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (368)
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2.2. Re: Introduction
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:16 pm ((PST))

Cathy,

Once you get past the chicken, I would add lots more red meat and skip the
veggies, pumpkin and yogurt especially for your gal with the digestive
issues. You want to avoid any kind of carbohydrates until you get this
under control. Drives me nuts when vets recommend rice and other high carb
foods for dogs with IBD symptoms. Not only are they hard to digest, they
put more strain on the organs, promote inflammation and spasming in the
intestines...raw is far easier to digest.

Also, I wouldn't hesitate at all to again try beef and lamb. It's very
possible the problems were merely too much too soon. Start slowly, adding
just a bit to a chicken meal and go from there. Size has nothing to do with
it...your dogs are still carnivores and red meat is their natural diet! :))

Specifically for Dinky, I'd feed her the typical pancreatic/EPI
diet....starting out with small frequent meals, not too much bone, limit fat
and supplement with a good digestive or pancreatic enzyme. Not certain what
you are using now, but many digestive enzymes are plant based and will not
help in digesting protein and fat. With all of her issues you might just
want to go with a pancreatic enzyme.

Here are some past messages from those who have had experience with this
type of problem......
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/122181
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/122224
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/91117
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/60393
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/88618

Flagyl is a horrible drug with tons of side effects. I'd stay away from
that one. Has your vet actually ever looked for a cause of her
issues.....pancreatitis, EPI, SIBO, etc??

Sandee & the Dane Gang

Messages in this topic (368)
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2.3. Re: Introduction/ SANDEE
Posted by: "Cathy" batcathy@sbcglobal.net batcathy2002
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:24 pm ((PST))

Thankyou- i was searching for files when you popped up. She is on Dogzymes by Natures Farmacy ( about 6 mos) ..created by a vet from Cornell University.....i was told it was very helpful with raw and they all feed raw...as far as i can tell it is digestive bacteria,natural amino acids & herbs.
Vet has never ran any serious testing on her...he keeps saying it is just her system. I am searching for a new vet that will take this serious. I know showing is stressful on them so I limit her ring time and anything else that will affect her.
She prefers smaller meals a couple times a day- maybe a tablespoon at a time. I remove skin & fat from chicken as i was told it holds bacteria- have even soaked it in vinegar but she refused to eat it. I will intro the red meats again....it may be too much too soon.
As for tuna- what is it that is bad...i have had people tell me not to give much- she loves it and cries at the cupboard & paws me mid-day.... she will eat a 6 oz can by herself.
Today she did eat ground turkey- almost 1/3 a lb.
I did not know about the flagyl- i will check it out - thankyou.
Cathy

C Richmond
Lesmar's CC
Battle Creek, Mi.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (368)
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2.4. Re: Introduction
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:25 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Cathy <batcathy@...> wrote:
>
> I have put them all back to raw - starting with just
> chicken again for a week or so.

Ok, keep them on chicken for another week. Feed less bones to
Dinky. Feed her meat only for at least one meal a day and little
bone for the other. I would avoid chicken backs chicken and pork
necks for her because she is still getting more bone than she
needs. No need for yogurt or pumpkin either. Back when I first
began feeding raw, I fed a veggie mush once a week and my dogs
always had diarrhea the next day so for now, leave off any veggies.
Feed Dinky chicken only, mostly meat and a little bone. No organs
for now.

In a couple of weeks give her a little turkey intermixed with
chicken. Turkey meat only. She will still get some chicken bones.

A couple of weeks later try mixing in a little pork. A week or so
later add some fish to her diet. A couple of weeks later add a
LITTLE beef. Add other things every few weeks.

Any time her symptoms re-appear, fast her for a day and stop feeding
the last thing you added to her diet. A month or so later you can
try that item again and see what happens. By adding things to the
diet slowly, it is easier to determine what is causing problems.

> She is under weight- coat is very dry & brittle....other
> wise healthy & playful.

Under weight can sometimes be in the eye of the beholder. Healthy,
energetic and playful are important signs to look for.

> Vet suggested I give her malox or equilivent before i
> feed her......she fights it!

I'm not a vet. Not even close. I did visit a vet in his office one
time and I saw one on TV. :) I wouldn't give Maylox. It is an
antacid and she needs acidic stomach juices to properly digest her
food. Malox will hinder that process.

Hopefully this will help you understand the process of tweaking the
diat. It should help you find that foods are giving problems if
any. It MAY be that she is merely eating too much. I don't know.
You might cut back to smaller meals more often and see what that
does also.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (368)
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2.5. Re: Introduction/ SANDEE
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:54 pm ((PST))

Cathy,

Time for a new vet. That's ridiculous to shrug it off blaming it on her
system and continually prescribing drugs which are obviously not the
solution! That is nonsense...there is something wrong that this keeps
happening, she hasn't gained weight, her coat is poor. Someone needs to
take this seriously and look for a diagnosis.

As far as I know, Dogzyme is plant based. Regardless, with her issues I
think I would try something more powerful.

Skin and fat is necessary and I wouldn't worry about bacteria, but would
avoid them for now just to cut down on the fat content to get her eating
better without precipitating another episode. Go slow with this girl.

I think the warning about tuna is related to mercury contamination? Not
exactly certain offhand but I know we have discussed it in the past.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Cathy" <batcathy@sbcglobal.net>

>
> Thankyou- i was searching for files when you popped up. She is on
Dogzymes by Natures Farmacy ( about 6 mos) ..created by a vet from Cornell
University.....i was told it was very helpful with raw and they all feed
raw...as far as i can tell it is digestive bacteria,natural amino acids &
herbs.
> Vet has never ran any serious testing on her...he keeps saying it is
just her system. I am searching for a new vet that will take this serious. I
know showing is stressful on them so I limit her ring time and anything else
that will affect her.
> She prefers smaller meals a couple times a day- maybe a tablespoon at a
time. I remove skin & fat from chicken as i was told it holds bacteria- have
even soaked it in vinegar but she refused to eat it. I will intro the red
meats again....it may be too much too soon.
> As for tuna- what is it that is bad...i have had people tell me not to
give much- she loves it and cries at the cupboard & paws me mid-day.... she
will eat a 6 oz can by herself.
> Today she did eat ground turkey- almost 1/3 a lb.
> I did not know about the flagyl- i will check it out - thankyou.

Messages in this topic (368)
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2.6. Re: Introduction/ SANDEE
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:09 pm ((PST))

Cathy,

Dogzyme is a probiotic, not a digestive enzyme. It will have absolutely no
benefit in digestion of protein and fat.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Cathy" <batcathy@sbcglobal.net>

>
> Thankyou- i was searching for files when you popped up. She is on
Dogzymes by Natures Farmacy

Messages in this topic (368)
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2.7. Re: Introduction
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:20 pm ((PST))

Cathy <batcathy@...> wrote:
>
> > our typical diet consits of chicken backs+additional meat
> pork neck + meat
> chicken necks
> chicken thigh
> chicken leg
> turkey neck
> mackeral or tuna
> frozen smelt- hot day
> ground turkey every other day to off set bone with added
yougart,dash of pumpkin
> rabbit when available
> we also get liver twice a week
> beef heart sliced as a treat
> to all of this i add eggs occasionally- small carrotts or green
beans as a treat -as they like it
> Only suppliment is fish oil & tad of olive oil ( Dinky gets
digestive enzymes daily)
*****
This is not quite the menu I would choose to feed or to recommend,
but my guess is Dinky's problems are broader than just what you
feed. Has you vet done any investigative work with Dinky? Seems
pretty obvious to me that when a symptom recurs after treatment that
the treatment isn't the right treatment. I mean, I don't know what
more is, but were I in your situation and I had the funds to finance
further diagnostics, I surely would do more. Did you do bloodwork?

For all your dogs, I recommend you feed more meat--include that beef
heart as meat and feed lots more of it--and less bone; and unless you
are emotionally attached to the yogurt and pumpkin, I recommend you
ditch them both. And olive oil brings nothing to a dog's nutritional
well being. If you are feeding the OO to lube the tubes, feeding
less bone/more meat will do the trick; if you are feeding OO for
essential fatty acids, your dogs have no need for O9, just
supplemental O3 (O6 being plenty available in feedlot/factory meat).

I think taking the menu back to utter basics for The Dink is the
right idea. The other dogs--removing what they do poorly on, like
beef and lamb, is a good idea but I don't think you need to go back
to square one with them, unless I am missing something here.
However, simplifying the menu is always recommended when things go
south: if the whole gang has problems, yes by all means start over
again with chicken for everyone.

Poor little Dinky. Have you tried multiple small meals? What
digestive enzyme are you using and are you using it correctly? Are
you removing the skin and fat from the chicken? My fear is that menu
fussing is of little value until you have some idea of why she can't
eat. I hope your vet can be motivated to look beyond parasites. And
I'm sorry I can't cobble together a workable diet. I hope others can
offer more.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (368)
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3a. IN FRANCE: need advice
Posted by: "Michal Cline" Mcline30@aol.com michalcline
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:40 pm ((PST))

I an fairly new to raw feeding (a little over 2 months) and have 2
parti Standard Poodles from the States. Both boys are doing VERY
well with their new diet although Victor,(17 kilo) the 3 year old
needs to have his food hand feed to him. Yes, he is spoiled. Aramis,
(25 kilo)the 2 year old, just chews away with much pleasure.

My problem is: we live in a small fishing village outside Montpellier
so no problem getting Omega 3, fresh sardines and mackeral is
inexpensive, but the cost of meat including chicken is astronomical.

I know from reading the material provided through this site that they
need variety. Is there anyone here who knows of a group in France
where we can get red meat at a reasonable price? Chicken here is at
least 2,98 euros a kilo which comes out to over 2 dollars a pound.
Red meat starts at about 6 euros a kilo. We spent at least 40 euros a
week on dog food! To my knowledge most here feed kibble.

I feed mostly chicken halved or in quarters and when I can liver,
heart, and tongue from pig, beef and lamb, and eggs. The problem is
that the French eat almost all parts of animals so they are not ever
on sale!

BTW, this is an incredible group and I thank everyone for all the
information on raw feeding! What a difference!

Michal in Southern France

Messages in this topic (2)
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3b. Re: IN FRANCE: need advice
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:44 pm ((PST))

Hi, Michal!
Use this link to search the Yahoo! Groups France sites;
http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/

You could search for the same key words in French that you would in English,
for raw feeding co-ops, or BARF groups or a French version of carnivore feed
supplier.

You could also use Google to search for online French suppliers, like
restaurants and reptile/zoo carnivore feeders.Searching neighboring
countries for online and Yahoo Groups might work for you, too.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On Nov 24, 2007 5:18 PM, Michal Cline <Mcline30@aol.com> wrote:

> <snip>
>
> My problem is: we live in a small fishing village outside Montpellier
> so no problem getting Omega 3, fresh sardines and mackerel is
> inexpensive, but the cost of meat including chicken is astronomical.
>
> I know from reading the material provided through this site that they
> need variety. Is there anyone here who knows of a group in France
> where we can get red meat at a reasonable price?
>

> <snip>
> BTW, this is an incredible group and I thank everyone for all the
> information on raw feeding! What a difference!
>
> Michal in Southern France
>
>
>

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Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. Re: Bacteria and raw feeding.
Posted by: "Cathy" batcathy@sbcglobal.net batcathy2002
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:51 pm ((PST))

LOL- I am a neat freak as far as my home but I only use the vinegar/water for clean up....and my grand daughter snacks here alot too.
No harsh chemicals for my gang- i even make an oil spray for flies & skitos rather than pesticides....and we have a garlic spray for the yard to repel bugs.
None have been on heart worm meds & no intestinal parasites have been found.
Cathy

C Richmond
Lesmar's CC
Battle Creek, Mi.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (23)
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5a. Red Meats?
Posted by: "blue eyed" eyed_blue@yahoo.co.uk eyed_blue
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:29 pm ((PST))

To be honest I have never counted a specific amount of red meats fed in the diet but thats something I will keep my eye on in replys from others.

I do give a little raw kidney with other foods as part of a meal every now and again, my dog seems to digest this easier than liver. I use boiled liver as training treats once or twice a week and keep a little bit of it raw for his meal at night. I feed quite a bit of tripe form lamb and ox but not sure if this counts as an organ meat, I know its offal, but being truthfull hadnt thought of it before. You can also feed the giblets from chicken...

Im going to start looking for pancreas soon,

Natalie

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Tryit now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (13)
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5b. Red Meats?
Posted by: "blue eyed" eyed_blue@yahoo.co.uk eyed_blue
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:29 pm ((PST))

OOps! Yes the heart is considered a red meat! Obviously too late for me, better go before I try to answer any more q's tonight!!LOL

Natalie

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Tryit now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (13)
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5c. Re: Red Meats?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:15 pm ((PST))

Natalie,

I wouldn't worry too much about specifics...red meat should predominate
rather than bony chicken. Other than that, just feed your dogs. Tripe is
stomach muscle so good stuff! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "blue eyed" <eyed_blue@yahoo.co.uk>

> To be honest I have never counted a specific amount of red meats fed in
the diet but thats something I will keep my eye on in replys from others.
>
> I do give a little raw kidney with other foods as part of a meal every
now and again, my dog seems to digest this easier than liver. I use boiled
liver as training treats once or twice a week and keep a little bit of it
raw for his meal at night. I feed quite a bit of tripe form lamb and ox but
not sure if this counts as an organ meat, I know its offal, but being
truthfull hadnt thought of it before. You can also feed the giblets from
chicken...

Messages in this topic (13)
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6a. Planning for Raw Feeding
Posted by: "luvsfreedom3" luvsfreedom3@yahoo.com luvsfreedom3
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:29 pm ((PST))

I've got a puppy on its way from the breeder, he's going to be 5 months
old, about 35lbs (45 when full grown). I'd like to start him on raw
feeding when he gets here, after weaning him from the kibble he's fed
now. I have heard varying percentages on bone and meat and vegetables
and vitamin additives, I'm just hoping someone can tell me what else my
dog will need in addition to what I'm planning, or if anything I'm
thinking of giving him will be dangerous - here's the weekly plan (all
uncooked):
2-3 days/wk: beef (either ground or steak of some kind with a bone in
and an organ of some sort - what's best?)
2-3 days/wk: chicken (1 whole chicken with organs)
1 day/wk: veal/venison
1 day/wk: salmon (whole fish - can I leave the bones and skin on/in or
do those need to be removed?)
each day: 1/4 of a bunch of celery
I don't know what kind of vitamins need to be added, I've seen varying
reports on powdered dairy for puppies... I could really use some good
advice. Thanks in advance for your help - V/R, Jamie

Messages in this topic (7)
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6b. Re: Planning for Raw Feeding
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:24 pm ((PST))

Feed lots of meat, a little bit of bone and some organs and you'll do fine.
The normal prey of a carnivore is around 80% meat, 10% edible bone, 10%
organs...no veggies, no dairy, no additives. Pretty simple, huh?

Sounds like you have some nice variety planned. You might want to begin
with just chicken for a week or so to get him used to digesting this new
food, then slowly add in red meat and organs. I wouldn't worry about
feeding beef bones...most are too hard to be consumed, damage teeth and you
want to avoid sharp cut bones in chops or steaks. When feeding beef, try
for some large chunks of briskets, cheeks or heart....if you can get whole
beef shanks that is a nice meal, but remove the bone once all the good stuff
is gone! :)) Oh, and don't forget pork...great economical source of red
meat and generally edible bones.

You can make soup for yourself out of the celery! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "luvsfreedom3" <luvsfreedom3@yahoo.com>

2-3 days/wk: beef (either ground or steak of some kind with a bone in
and an organ of some sort - what's best?)
2-3 days/wk: chicken (1 whole chicken with organs)
1 day/wk: veal/venison
1 day/wk: salmon (whole fish - can I leave the bones and skin on/in or
do those need to be removed?)
each day: 1/4 of a bunch of celery
I don't know what kind of vitamins need to be added, I've seen varying
reports on powdered dairy for puppies... I could really use some good
advice. Thanks in advance for your help - V/R, Jamie

Messages in this topic (7)
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6c. Re: Planning for Raw Feeding
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:47 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "luvsfreedom3" <luvsfreedom3@...>
wrote:
>
> I have heard varying percentages on bone and meat and vegetables
> and vitamin additives,

The only percentage from this list you need to remember is
vegetables. The percentage of vegetables in the diet should be
ZERO! No vitamins or other addtives needed either. Feed raw meat,
bones and organs from a variety of animals. Mostly meat, some bone,
and some organs. Thats it. The diet you have listed is great.
Just leave off the veggies. They are not needed. Dogs are
carnivores. Carnivores eat meat, bones, and orgsns. Omnivores eat
veggies and meats. Dogs are not omnivores.

You will need to start the diet slowly. Start with one meat,
chicken is suggested, and gradually add more meats over time. For
my suggestions, check my web page at

http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

> I'm just hoping someone can tell me what else my
> dog will need in addition to what I'm planning, or if anything I'm
> thinking of giving him will be dangerous - here's the weekly
> plan (all uncooked):

The diet is fine. Nothing else is needed. I wouldn't feed steak
with the bone in. Steak bones have been cut and can have some sharp
edges. I would cut the steak off the bone.

You can leave off the celery. It's not dangerous, just not needed.
Leave the bones in the salmon. No vitamins are needed. No dairy
needed. Only feed raw meat, bones, and organs from a variety of
animals. From time to time I would add some different meats such as
pork or lamb or turkey just for more variety.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

6d. Re: Planning for Raw Feeding
Posted by: "luvsfreedom3" luvsfreedom3@yahoo.com luvsfreedom3
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:40 pm ((PST))

Sandee,
Thanks so much for the response! I'm so worried now about the beef
bones! The butcher I'm planning to go to has these big beef bones
(maybe 2" diameter) that are cut on both ends and have the marrow in
them, maybe a foot long, and I was planning on using those as
the 'bone' portion of the diet. But now the tooth damage thing makes
sense, they're BIG bones... but I thought they'd be good because it
would be a challenge and there's marrow in there so the dog would want
to chew it and get his 'bone' requirement... What's the best thing
you've seen for that? I keep hearing these horror stories about not
feeding chicken bones, and both responses I got to my question
mentioned not feeding beef bones because of the sharp edges... so is it
pretty much pork bones? And do you know if dogs can eat fish bones or
do those get stuck in their digestive tracks? Do you debone/descale
fish before you give them to the dogs or just give them to them whole?
Thanks again for your response, I can really use the advice :) - V/R,
Jamie

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

6e. Re: Planning for Raw Feeding
Posted by: "luvsfreedom3" luvsfreedom3@yahoo.com luvsfreedom3
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:40 pm ((PST))

Bill,
Thanks so much for your response! I had the celery in there because I
heard that wild dogs/wolves at grasses to help with digestion so that
vegetable fiber was something they needed in some amount regularly, but
what you're saying makes sense. Do you know if I can just put a fish
in the bowl for the dog, or do I need to descale (can you tell I
haven't done much with fish before? LOL) and/or debone the fish? Will
the fish bones hurt the dog's stomach? Thanks again for the response -
V/R, Jamie

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

6f. Re: Planning for Raw Feeding
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:51 pm ((PST))

The bone portion of the diet needs to be edible, not large marrow bones.
Just about any bone other than beef...the bones in chicken, pork, whole
fish, rabbit, lamb, goat, turkey, venison are mostly consumable.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "luvsfreedom3" <luvsfreedom3@yahoo.com>

Thanks so much for the response! I'm so worried now about the beef
bones! The butcher I'm planning to go to has these big beef bones
(maybe 2" diameter) that are cut on both ends and have the marrow in
them, maybe a foot long, and I was planning on using those as
the 'bone' portion of the diet. But now the tooth damage thing makes
sense, they're BIG bones... but I thought they'd be good because it
would be a challenge and there's marrow in there so the dog would want
to chew it and get his 'bone' requirement... What's the best thing
you've seen for that? I keep hearing these horror stories about not
feeding chicken bones, and both responses I got to my question
mentioned not feeding beef bones because of the sharp edges... so is it
pretty much pork bones? And do you know if dogs can eat fish bones or
do those get stuck in their digestive tracks? Do you debone/descale
fish before you give them to the dogs or just give them to them whole?

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

6g. Re: Planning for Raw Feeding
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:08 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "luvsfreedom3" <luvsfreedom3@...>
wrote:
>
> Do you know if I can just put a fish
> in the bowl for the dog, or do I need to descale (can you tell I
> haven't done much with fish before?

Hey Jamie,
Yes, you can just put a whole fish in the dogs bowl and let him go
at it. You don't need to do anything. HOWEVER: Some dogs don't
take to fish too well and you may have to doctor it up some to get
him to eat it. You may need to skin it, cut it up, or other things
to make it more palatible. Fish bones will not hurt him.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Preparing Quail
Posted by: "glamour.cupcakes" glamour.cupcakes@yahoo.com glamour.cupcakes
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:08 pm ((PST))

Hello,

I'm relatively new with the raw diet and have a question about
quail, particularly this quote:

"If you are feeding wild game, it is recommended that you check it
thoroughly for shot and that you freeze it for at least 24 hours
prior to feeding to kill any parasites. If you know your source,
however, the freezing is not always necessary. It is just
recommended. Be aware that upland game birds (quail, pheasant, dove,
etc.) are all shot with lead shot. If a dog or cat ingests the lead
pellets, lead poisoning can occur. So if you feed these animals,
check them thoroughly for lead pellets. Wild game is a wonderful
addition to any carnivore's diet."

Source: http://rawfed.com/myths/feedraw.html

My question is, am I supposed to just look for puncture wounds on
the quail? If I see none, then it should be safe, right?

I just bought a pack of three quails from an ethnic market and from
what I see, they have been gutted, although all the body parts
(minus head) is still in place. If it's sold in a supermarket, they
should have been checked over already for lead pellets, am I correct?

Any other precautions I should take before giving it to my dog?

Thank you!

- Kay L.

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

7b. Re: Preparing Quail
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:28 pm ((PST))

> I just bought a pack of three quails from an ethnic market and from
> what I see, they have been gutted, although all the body parts
> (minus head) is still in place. If it's sold in a supermarket, they
> should have been checked over already for lead pellets, am I correct?

Kay,

The quail you purchased were farmed birds (not wild), and therefore, not
shot. So no, there's no danger of lead pellets in your birds.

> Any other precautions I should take before giving it to my dog?

Nope - feed away!

Casey

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Re: Newbie, question about hungry dog.
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:13 pm ((PST))

Hi, Sarah!
Short answer, it depends! ^_^

Hmm, 8.3 kgs is um, about 18.30 pounds. I'd definitely consider that a small
dog.
so, 3% of 8.3 kg = 249 grams or 8.78 oz.
4% of 8.3 kg = 332 grams or 11.71 oz
5% of 8.3 grams = 415 grams or 14.63 oz

You *may be feeding him enough, and he *may just be reacting to the new raw
food by feeling he can't get enough of it. Smart dog!! ; )

He may be feeling a little anxious for the same reason, wanting more, but
feeling that the new raw food may never come again. Being a terrier, and
predatory, he might just feel that hunting for more is the best way to
accomplish his new goal in life, getting more of that good stuff! Being a
dog, and doing what he's learned works to get him what he wants; going to
'his eating place' and asking for 'more, please' and going to the fridge and
sitting in front to point the way, *just in case you've forgotten where the
'good stuff' is (and do you sometimes give him a snip of something when he's
there, and you're getting food out?) the only way he knows to let you know
he wants more.

Its not only small to tiny dogs that sometimes need to be fed a larger
percentage of their Estimated Ideal Adult Body Weight (EIABW)
1) Dogs or pups who are not up to their adult or ideal body weight. You
might need to revise this figure if he's an adult who needs to gain, or is
still a bit of a pup who has some growing to do, or an unknown mix where
you're not sure of his final adult size.
2) If he is a very busy boy who never stops following you around or
running/playing a lot outdoors or is in training as a performance dog or who
hunts on his own out of doors, or indoors for that matter.
3) If he spends some time out of doors in freezing weather. Or a lot of time
out of doors in cold weather.
4) If he is a bit anxious or stressed, some or all of the time, he may need
more to make up for the cals he 'worries' off.
5) Some dogs/pups just have a higher metabolism than others, they burn cals
faster than dogs their same breed/size and need a higher % than even their
own litter mates.

4%, 5%, even 6%+ of their EIABW or more is not out of the question for some
dogs to maintain or gain needed weight and growth. You need to play with
gradually adding more meat to each meal, to bowel tolerance, until you reach
a place where he looks great and isn't feeling bony or chubby. Weighing the
food and the dog is fine at first, but once you get the hang of raw feeding,
you can feed a little more, or less at a meal, and adjust over the next few
meals. Tweaking the portions you feed, according to the dog's current needs,
is something that comes to you with experience.

Feeding beef ribs in slabs of 2-3 or beef/goat legs or another
hard-not-edible bone for your guy to keep busy and floss with can take the
edge off of the "Feed ME!" anxiety for you both, and take the edge off his
energy a little, too. Just toss the bones in the trash when the goodies are
eaten off.

Most dogs get a little more calm about meals over time. But don't let his
*want* for more overwhelm his *should*.

Freezing meat is a great way to stock up on sales or bulk purchases! Quite a
few raw feeders have a 'dog freezer' or more than one! Look to your local
craigslist, FreeCycle or other recycling group for a cheap or free one.

Portioning and repackaging meats bought on sale or in bulk before freezing
makes sense - saves work later. You won't need to thaw anything to pack a
cooler to take on the road for a trip or visit, and in the summer, some dogs
like their meat 'n bones frozen - cools them down and adds complexity to a
boring, easy to crunch/swallow meal. It can be as easy or as complex a
procedure as you want;
a) just cut portions and bag several meals worth of the same or different
proteins together.
b) pack individual or daily portions.
c) pack up different size portions for different size dogs.
d) pack up a meatless protein with a different (beef mince with a softer
chicken back or turkey neck, say) bone to save sorting later.
e) add in a tiny dollop of liver or other organ to packets for daily
feeding.
e) cut up organs separately, freeze on a flat tray, then bag together, to
feed weekly, or when the mood hits.
I like to use slider bags, but other people like the rigid
disposable/reuseable plastic containers. I save my bags by freezing them in
the freezer when they're empty, and rinsing/refilling when I'm packing up
the next batch.

Introducing liver now is fine, if you take it slow, and feed tiny bits not
too frequently. By tiny bit, I mean about he size of your pinky fingernail,
or even smaller. If you feed too much or too often, you're liable to have to
clean up a blow out - not necessarily a bad or uncomfortable thing for the
dog, but no fun for the human. I'd hold off on feeding liver when adding a
new protein to his diet. I'd also wait to introduce other organs, like
kidney, spleen, thymus, pancreas, etc. until you have fed several other
proteins successfully.

If you're interested in feeding whole prey, this link may be helpful for
you;
http://www.livefoods.co.uk/index.php?cPath=24

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On Nov 24, 2007 6:40 AM, Sarah <hecarte@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Hi, I am very new to raw feeding, just started 9 days ago.
>

> <snip>
> I've been reading this list with interest and have gotten a lot of help
> so far.
>
> Regards, Sarah (UK)
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12310

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Red Meats?
From: carnesbill
1b. Re: Red Meats?
From: jennifer_hell
1c. Red Meats?
From: Monica A. Joy
1d. Re: Red Meats?
From: costrowski75
1e. Re: Red Meats?
From: miensasis
1f. Re: Red Meats?
From: T Smith
1g. Re: Red Meats?
From: T Smith
1h. Re: Red Meats?
From: Sandee Lee
1i. Re: Red Meats?
From: T Smith

2.1. Re: Newbie
From: Dawn Taylor
2.2. Re: Newbie
From: carnesbill
2.3. Re: Newbie
From: costrowski75

3a. Re: S.O.S and venison ribs in NE Michigan
From: carnesbill

4a. Re: duck, duck, goose
From: Caren OConnor
4b. Re: duck, duck, goose
From: Rebecca Little

5.1. Re: Introduction
From: carnesbill
5.2. Re: Introduction
From: costrowski75

6a. Re: Doh. i read the archives!
From: costrowski75

7a. goose
From: h h

8. Veal???
From: miensasis

9a. Re: Bacteria and raw feeding.
From: miensasis

10a. Re: Need to share the excitement!!
From: Gayle
10b. Re: Need to share the excitement!!
From: jennifer_hell

11a. Re: Chew treats?
From: eyed_blue
11b. Re: Chew treats?
From: eyed_blue

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Red Meats?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:28 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:
>
> Confused as usual :-)

Because you are still too hung up on numbers. Forget numbers and
just feed your dog.

> Heart is not considered an organ when feeding but is it
> considered RED meat?

A heart is made up almost entirely of muscle and fat(meat). If you
are feeding beef heart, of course it's red meat. I don't know what
chicken hearts are considered and don't care. It means nothing to
me. It is inconsequential. There is no reason to wonder.

> I know that may sound like a stupid question but I am not sure if i
> count it as red meat.

It counts as meat. Period. Thats it. Meat. Forget red and white.

> Also, I had asked before but did not see any reply. How much
> red meat should be average fed?

It doens't matter. It makes no difference. It is unimportant.
It's a number. You don't feed numbers. You feed raw meat, bones,
and organs in no particular ratio. Mostly meat, some bones, and
some organs.

> Of course, some of my dogs HATE liver & I forgot what else
> is considered organ?

Kidney, spleen, lung, pancreas, etc.

> I know 5% needs to be liver so we will cross that bridge one dog at
> a time :-)

There you go feeding numbers again. Numbers have no nutrition.
Feed ONLY meat, bones and organs. Mostly meat, some bone and some
organ.

> I think I should start adding a bit of red meats &
> varieties now.....

Variety is good. Feed some of that.

> So, what are red meat?

Red meat is meat from livestock.

> What % should be red meat?

Whatever you want to feed. Do not feed numbers. Feed meat, bones,
and organs in whatever porportions work for your dogs. They will
tell you when you get out of bounds.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

> Thanks,
> Trina
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Red Meats?
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:04 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:

> Of course, some of my dogs HATE liver & I forgot what else is considered
> organ? I know 5% needs to be liver so we will cross that bridge
one dog at
> a time :-) I need to know what other organs are out there that I
can get.

My girl eats her liver cut into small pieces and mixed with green
tripe,or some ground dried tripe (I think she would eat anything mixed
with tha, lol!), or some grated parmesan. Same goes for spleen and kidney.

> I think I should start adding a bit of red meats & varieties now.....
> So, what are red meat? What % should be red meat?
I try not to feed more than 50% total of the same protein source.
That's all. 5% liver, 5% spleen and kidney. I just freeze portions of
the approximate amount she gets to eat weekly. Everything balances
somehow over the month. I feed once a week: fish, organs, liver,
chicken or turkey. The rest is venison and beef. And an egg from time
to time.
Just feed variety! And remember to breathe. =D

Jennifer with Mandy

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Red Meats?
Posted by: "Monica A. Joy" imajoy@hughes.net imajoy2003
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:08 am ((PST))

Trina,
Have you tried just chicken liver? My dogs leave chicken livers laying around hoping they'll turn into , I don't know, something better for sure. They LOVE beef/calf liver though. Maybe yours is the same. I still feed chicken liver just not as often.
Monica

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

1d. Re: Red Meats?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:09 am ((PST))

"T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:
> Heart is not considered an organ when feeding but is it considered
RED
>
*****
I coulda sworn we've been through this before!
Heart is an organ by function but a muscle by construction. Yes,
when doctors do heart transplants they are transplanting the organ.
But it a big ol' muscle and we can feed it as muscle meat. It is red
meat because all muscle meat, if given the exercise, is red meat.
The heart, which doesn't let up, thank goodness for that, is a muscle
that geets lots of exercise. Thus it's color is very red.

I am not sure if i
> count it as red meat.
*****
Well, however you used to feed it, feed it now as red muscle meat.

> Also, I had asked before but did not see any reply.
*****
I'm certain I responded to someone's heart question. Whether Yahoo
in its cyber majesty posted it I cannot say for sure.

How much red meat
> should be average fed?
*****
As much as you can feed. If the entire meat menu were to be red,
that would be fine.

> I am feeding mostly chicken (still new to the diet) but wanting to
introduce
> more red meats.
*****
I think it's time for you to feed red meat. I believe this has been
discussed before as well. If you can add heart (beef, pork, chicken--
doesn't matter) and pork to the diet, you will have expanded it
nicely. With heart and pork available, there's usually little reason
to stick so closely to chicken.

Of course, some of my dogs HATE liver & I forgot what else is
considered
> organ?
*****
Trina, do you read the other posts or just the ones that respond to
your questions? This topic--what to do about liver--has been
discussed a zillion times. Check the list archives, please. There
are many ways to get liver into a dog, including trying different
kinds of liver. Liver is non-negotiable. You must get liver into
your dogs. Not much, not always, but you gotta do it.

Other options that come close (and actually work nicely along with
liver) are kidney and spleen. But they are not liver. Liver is
liver.

> I think I should start adding a bit of red meats & varieties
now.....
> So, what are red meat? What % should be red meat?
*****
Red meat is meat that is not white. Keep it simple: chicken, turkey
and white fish are considered white meat. Everything else is
considered red, even pork. Salmon and mackerel are considered red.
Heart is red.

Feed as much red meat as you can. More is better than less.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

1e. Re: Red Meats?
Posted by: "miensasis" kpmnlm@patmedia.net miensasis
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:10 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:
>
>What % should be red meat?

Trina...

Chicken is very affordable but red meat wins the nutritional prize
for carnivores. Ideally, you should include as much red meat as you
can comfortably afford. I personally look for sales/cheaper cuts of
pork/beef/lamb etc... If money is tight I feed more cut-up whole
chicken, bone-in breasts, or chicken leg quarters as a base and then
supplement the meal with hunks of red meat. If I have more money to
spend or find a good sale on pork/beef, I will feed 100% meaty red-
meat meals where I can. Adding a good fish body oil supplement is
added insurance.

Some weeks ago I scored a bounty at my local Amish market. I had the
extra money and bought some poultry, rabbit, lamb, organs, but also
plenty of beef and pork. I live in NJ where prices tend to be very
high, so I stocked up ($150 worth) and stored most of what I
purchased in my deep freeze. Its been a month and I'm still feeding
my two 30 lb. dogs from my stash. The red meat hunks were 6 lbs.
each with no bones. I figure out how long the hunk should last my
dogs based on their daily intake and then just put the whole hunk
down and pick it up, wrap and refrigerate over that many days until
its all gone. Makes it nice and simple.

Bottom line is to just do what works for you and your pocketbook.
And remember, regardless of what you can afford, any amount of raw
(i.e chicken) is better than feeding kibble.

Nancy

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

1f. Re: Red Meats?
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:10 am ((PST))

I will check out other livers. I have tried chicken & turkey, some like it,
some don't.
To answer the other question, I do not read all the emails because their are
too many & I admit i do have to pick by subject each day. I am not on just
this list. Sorry & I have a hell of a time with archives so usually I try
to post a fast simple question for a quick answer so as not to irritate
anyone. I've been snapped at on here so I try to keep to the sidelines &
ask my mentor instead but she sometimes doesn't have an answer because she
is also kind of new to raw.
For those who don't remember, I'm a vegetarian, therefore I've no clue what
meat is considered what: it disgusts me but I know my dogs need it & I will
do what is the very best for them, otherwise I would have given up & gone
back to k***le a long time ago :-)
I still have NOT found any fish to feed my dogs. I do give fish capsules
but would prefer to do the real fish since I don't really know how much fish
oil capsules to feed & dammit i live in the NW I should be able to find
fish!
I am a stickler for things (yes, I am that germaphobe, neat freak that uses
bleach) BUT I allow my dogs to get dirty & play, dig holes, wrestle in mud &
be dogs, I just keep the house overly cleaned & disinfected & keep them
sanitary & brushed. I try very hard not to do numbers but it is a challenge
for me. I am trying to diet my one little dog & failing miserably at it!
My 3 Dane pups look incredibly gorgeous on this diet! One is having slight
skin/hair issues but it is, I'm sure, non diet related: rather, I am sure it
is colour related.
My other boy will be off the multiple antibiotics in a day so we will see
how he fares in a week or so.
I never had a chance to reply to everyone about that because of my schedule
last week, sorry. Let me see if I can make this super short & will skip
alot of things but get to basics. His lifelong story is that he came to me
as a puppy over 11 years ago with severe infections, vet began annual ear
flushings (under anesthesia & $500+ at a time), skin inflamed, prednisone
every few weeks for years (Yes, you read that right & I believed in this
vet!). Joey went blind in one eye, vet says "Yup, he's blind, don't know
why but other eye is going blind too." never gave meds or sent us to a
specialist. For about 9 years it was flushings, antibiotics,
prednisone/steroids...over 2 years ago, new vet: new test MULTIPLE
antibiotics for 5 diagnosed skin diseases: I remember: staf, e-coli (can't
remember others) but none transferred to any of my other dogs or humans. A
year on meds also saw an opthamologist, multiple eye meds, $3,000 later &
35% vision in one eye 3 - 5 meds daily for lifetime. Then Joey develops
demodex mange! A year on internal meds, cleared up so far. A month ago,
back on 2 antibiotics for skin & ears inflamed. bathed twice weekly with
medicated shampoo for last 2 years.
So, there's the shortest possible version. I am in hopes this diet will
help since he has always been a k***le dog on vet recommended 'diets'.
This dog smelled SO bad you couldn't walk through the front door! Right now
he is resting at my vet & I do not smell him but the antibiotics are still
in his system. Just to see him resting without chewing his skin to bright
red & bleeding is incredible. It may be too late to 'save' him with diet
but I have hopes the raw diet can help!
Sorry this was too long.
Thanks for all the liver, red meat & diet advice, will trudge my way
through :-)
Trina

On Nov 24, 2007 8:47 AM, Monica A. Joy <imajoy@hughes.net> wrote:

> Trina,
> Have you tried just chicken liver? My dogs leave chicken livers laying
> around hoping they'll turn into , I don't know, something better for sure.
> They LOVE beef/calf liver though. Maybe yours is the same. I still feed
> chicken liver just not as often.
> Monica
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________

1g. Re: Red Meats?
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:42 am ((PST))

ok, I thought pork was a white meat :-) Like the commercial "Pork, the
other white meat."
I just bought $250.00 worth of chicken thighs, turkey necks & beef hearts.
I have another freezer to pick up, am going to stock up on turkeys from the
holiday sales & I will seek out some red meats! Now that I know pork is a
red meat .... Thank you!!
I will never go back to k***le no matter how flustered I get! My dogs
deserve the best only.
Trina

On Nov 24, 2007 10:51 AM, miensasis <kpmnlm@patmedia.net> wrote
>
>
>
> Trina...
>
> Chicken is very affordable but red meat wins the nutritional prize
> for carnivores. Ideally, you should include as much red meat as you
> can comfortably afford. I personally look for sales/cheaper cuts of
> pork/beef/lamb etc..
>

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Messages in this topic (10)
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1h. Re: Red Meats?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:37 pm ((PST))

Trina,

Your question about red meat was on RawChat and you received quite a few
responses.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "T Smith" <coldbeach@gmail.com>

> Also, I had asked before but did not see any reply. How much red meat
> should be average fed?

Messages in this topic (10)
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1i. Re: Red Meats?
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:42 pm ((PST))

I saw the ones from today, thanks.
If they replied to one from last week, I didn't see them for some reason, my
apologies. I did get my answers today & they were very helpful!
Trina

On Nov 24, 2007 1:37 PM, Sandee Lee <rlee@plix.com> wrote:

> Trina,
>
> Your question about red meat was on RawChat and you received quite a few
> responses.
>
> Sandee & the Dane Gang
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (10)
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2.1. Re: Newbie
Posted by: "Dawn Taylor" dawnmarie1968@tx.rr.com dawnt91
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:04 am ((PST))

"I wanted to see if anyone out there has any advice on whether or not
it is safe for a small dog (pug or yorkie...I'm still undecided) to
eat raw? I know that they can eat ground meat, but am concerned that
this will not be enough to keep their teeth clean. Can they chew
bones? If so, should I give them bones with meat on it (ie-chicken
thigh) or should I give them ground meat and allow them to chew a bone
for dessert?"

----------------------------------

Welcome!

I have two little dogs, one a 10 lb Chihuahua mix and one a 13 lb Daschund/Chi mix. They're both on a complete raw diet and they eat the same thing as my 75 lb greyhound. They don't eat ground meat (unless I find a deal too good to pass up); they eat whole meat with bones. You'd be amazed at what those little guys can eat. Mine have no problem with chicken of any size, pork rib bones, etc. They even chew on the bones in the pork picnics.

A little dog is really no different than a big dog except you have to be pretty careful about not overfeeding or they'll get fat. Mine get only 5 ounces a day, and it's a challenge sometimes to get portions that small.

I definitely don't recommend letting your dog chew a bone for dessert - make sure any bones you feed are covered in meat and just count it as part of the diet. Bare bones scare me a bit as they tend to be sharper than bones with meat on them.

There's lots of great info on this list. When you read it, don't be too concerned about having a little dog. Just learn what any dog needs and adjust the portion sizes to be appropriate for your dog's size.
--------------------------------------------------

Dawn Taylor

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Messages in this topic (217)
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2.2. Re: Newbie
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:51 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "kellyomran" <kellyomran@...>
wrote:
>
> I have done a looooot of reading tonight and I think I have
> the basics down. I'm so inspired that I am going to buy a
> meat grinder and make all the food myself. (Hope I'm not
> getting in over my head here!)

You haven't done "a loooot" of reading yet if you plan to buy a
grinder. A grinder is a useless appliance for raw feeding. Dogs
have built in grinders that have worked well for millions of years.
Also, you won't have to "make" any food. Just get an animal part
and hand it to your dog. Thats all there is to it.

> I wanted to see if anyone out there has any advice on whether
> or not it is safe for a small dog (pug or yorkie...I'm
> still undecided) to eat raw?

Of course it is. Over the long haul, its safer than kibble.

> I know that they can eat ground meat, but am concerned that
> this will not be enough to keep their teeth clean.

You are absolutely right it won't. The only time to feed ground
anything is when you get it at such a good price that you can't turn
it down. Otherwise feed raw meat, bones, and organs from a variety
of animals.

> Can they chew bones?

Hehe, yes, they are dogs. :) :) :)

> If so, should I give them bones with meat on it (ie-chicken
> thigh) or should I give them ground meat and allow them to chew
> a bone for dessert?

Forget grinders. Absolutely not needed as long as your dog has
teeth. Many toothless dogs don't eat ground. Feed your dog whole
animal parts(cut to the appropriate size for that breed).

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (217)
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2.3. Re: Newbie
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:29 am ((PST))

"kellyomran" <kellyomran@...> wrote:
>I'm so inspired that I am going to buy a meat grinder and make
> all the food myself. (Hope I'm not getting in over my head here!)
*****
No, but you're complicating the process. NO GRINDER! Your pup will
come complete with its own grinder--teeth. While you may have to feed
easy peasy bones until it figures out how to use its teeth (maybe a
week), it'll be able to eat whole food right away (with a little help
from you).

You don't "make" any food. Ma Nature does the making, you do the
choosing and you help the pup learn to do the eating. No making
nuttin'!

> I wanted to see if anyone out there has any advice on whether or not
> it is safe for a small dog (pug or yorkie...I'm still undecided) to
> eat raw?
*****
Yes, it's safe. It's not for you to decide if it's safe. It's for you
to decide if you want to do right by the pup by feeding it a good,
healthy species appropriate diet. This list with great regularity
discusses feeding small puppies, small dogs, and small breeds. Please
use the list archives to answer most if not all of your raw questions.

You should always look to the message archives for help.

I know that they can eat ground meat, but am concerned that
> this will not be enough to keep their teeth clean.
*****
Ground meat does not keep teeth clean, no. You're right. What you
will be feeding mostly though are whole meats, whole meaty bones and a
bit of organ. Ground meat is useful for hiding pills and certainly
when it is too cheap to pass up it can be fed. But it has no claim to
the larger part of the menu.

Can they chew
> bones?
*****
Yes. You start the babies out with easy bones and as they grow and
they figure out how to use their teeth and as their jaws develop
strength, you move them to more dificult bones.

If so, should I give them bones with meat on it (ie-chicken
> thigh)
*****
Yes, this is correct.

or should I give them ground meat and allow them to chew a bone
> for dessert?
*****
No, this is not appropriate. Feed ground food infrequently. Feed
edible bones with plenty of yummy, scrumptuous meat on them. Feed
these meaty edible bones as the meal.

Please. Do yourself a favor, do your pup-to-be a favor, do the list
members a favor: learn to use the message archives and then take
advantage of the learning curve of others.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (217)
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3a. Re: S.O.S and venison ribs in NE Michigan
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:33 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "johnsonkp200" <sunfiretervs@...>
wrote:
>
> Should I freeze it for 24 hrs first (I've heard that about
> game/parasites), or should I wait until ? (how long) to give it
> to him?

If it was me, I'd wait about 6 weeks to give it to him just to insure
there aren't any digestive problems.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. Re: duck, duck, goose
Posted by: "Caren OConnor" cavkist@yahoo.com cavkist
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:34 am ((PST))

Rebecca -
I've been feeding raw for almost 4 years and have not fed goose yet. But, if someone were to give me geese, I'm certain I would feed them! Wow! What a nice gift:) I do, however, feed duck whenever I can afford to splurge. Mine just LUUUUVVVV duck!
Please let us know how your guys enjoy them.
Caren O'Connor
Nansemond Cavaliers

Rebecca Little <pbgs@delhitel.net> wrote:
Does anyone ever feed goose? A friend gave me two very fresh geese(he just shot them) and after a great deal of work to get the feathers off I put them in freezer bags for the 10 day wait before I feed them but just wondering if anybody feeds goose and about the bones ect....i know alot of people don't feed turkey(other then necks) d/t the bones being hard is it the same for geese or not?
Rebecca Little
Peakes Brook German Shepherds
http://sites.centralpets.com/mammals/peakesbrookgsd/index.html

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

---------------------------------
Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
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4b. Re: duck, duck, goose
Posted by: "Rebecca Little" pbgs@delhitel.net canucme278
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:42 pm ((PST))

Duck is actually a regular thing here, I get duck carcass from Oma's for about 98 cents a pound. My guys adore it and LOVE duckie days. I just wasn't sure if there was alot of difference between the two meats. I can tell you that the goose meat is quite dark. I do think I may have more goose in my future....the person who gave them
to me knows I feed raw and also HATES the geese that seem to be over populating his pond.
Rebecca Little
Peakes Brook German Shepherds
http://sites.centralpets.com/mammals/peakesbrookgsd/index.html

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
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5.1. Re: Introduction
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:51 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Cathy Richmond" <batcathy@...>
wrote:
>
> I have been raw feeding for about 2 years now with trial &
> error and a few bumps in the road.

What exactly are you feeding now?

> Does archives mean the posts listed under links and how do I
> trim posts?

It means to use the search feature to find posts on a particular
subject or just scroll backwards reading anything that interests you.

> I have been following the IBS thread as it sounds like my
> little girl. My vet has treated her numerous times for
> diarrea & cramps with stool samples each time but have never
> had a diagnose of any thing in particular.

Often in vet talk, IBS means "I don't have a clue what the problem
is." This is another reason we need to know exactly what you are
feeding so the diet can be tweaked to fit this dog's particular
problem.

> He is neither pro/anti on the raw but has said he feels she
> in particular cant handle it.

I seriously disagree with him. There is no way that artificial
processed cereal full of grains and carbs is better for her
digestive system than a natural diet of meat, bones, and organs.

>...so I am looking for advise to help her. I am always up for
> learning and will be grateful to any & all advise.

Let us know what you are feeding now and what past exeperiences have
been with different foods and we will go from there.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (361)
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5.2. Re: Introduction
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:47 am ((PST))

"Cathy Richmond" <batcathy@...> wrote:
>> Does archives mean the posts listed under links and how do I trim
posts?
*****
The archives is a fancy term for old messages. All the messages that
you receive as mails are also available (in order, back til 2003 or
something--beyond which Yahoo has deleted) via the Rawfeeding
homepage on Yahoogroups. At the bottom of each Rawfeeding email you
receive are instructions for accessing Yahoogroups. It's easy. Do
it. You can also manage your membership with this link. IMO
everyone who receives list emails should also have access to the
Yahoogroup website.

You trim your posts by deleting from your response previously posted
text that is not relevant to your reply. In many cases you can
delete everything. If you need to keep a bit of the original text
for reference, you can do so by cutting and pasting.

If your preferences are set to "enhanced" you may have trouble
cutting and pasting. I suggest you change your mail preferences
to "traditional" which should make things easier. This can be done
by clicking appropriately on the management text at the bottom of
every Rawfeeding email you receive.

>He is neither pro/anti on the raw but has said he feels she
> in particular cant handle it.
*****
Of course she can. There is a proper raw diet for every dog out
there; it's our job as clever, creative and responsible rawfeeders to
find that diet. It's the vet's job to find out why a dog cannot eat
a species appropriate diet. Given her background, you may be to make
concessions, but none of them should have to entail significant
forays away from species appropriate.

We'll need lots of details of course, but we really are here to help.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (361)
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6a. Re: Doh. i read the archives!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:48 am ((PST))

Giselle <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
> Lastly, and this is just my hindsight working overtime,
> I-wish-I'd-known-better talking, but my little guy died, not from
IBD, but
> from a large tumor growing undetected in his liver. It got to a
size that
> affected his ability to store glycogen, sending his blood sugar
through the
> roof, and surgery wasn't an option at that point.
*****
Ah, I know it well.
When my 13 year old golden died last year, it was because of a large
tumor growing undetectetd on his lower bowel. This was not
identified until the vet did a sonogram after his bloodwork came back
looking just awful. And what precipitated the CBC was poor sweet
Gus's chronic pancreatitis. Once I got past the denial ("no really,
it's just indigestion") it was patently obvious that something much
bigger and worse was going on.

> BUT, don't let him talk diet to you! ; )
*****
Amen. After the bloodwork, the vet wanted me to feed SD something or
other; she was nicely accomodating though when I reminded her my dogs
eat raw food. She told me to feed something bland and that was the
end of the food conversation.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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7a. goose
Posted by: "h h" deedeekinsisme@yahoo.com tarbedyh
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:08 am ((PST))

Does anyone ever feed goose? A friend gave me two very fresh geese(he just shot them) and after a great deal of work to get the feathers off I put them in freezer bags for the 10 day wait before I feed them but just wondering if anybody feeds goose and about the bones ect....

~~~~~~~~
Geese are fine for dogs to eat. Although my dogs have not had goose as of yet, I wouldn't hesitate to feed it to them..unless the goose in question is my brother's black lab named Goose...I wouldn't be feeding her to my dogs. <g> The only caution I would suggest is to make sure all the shot pellets have been removed before you feed it to your dog.

HEIDI MARIE
~with the woofs-Cheyenne and Lazy B~
~and the moggies-Minerva, Shasta, and Misty-Jo~

---------------------------------
Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
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8. Veal???
Posted by: "miensasis" kpmnlm@patmedia.net miensasis
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:42 am ((PST))

I was wondering if group members could weigh in on the nutritional
value of veal. While I am not a vegetarian, I am not a big meat eater
at all and what I do eat is generally free-range and organic. I have
never, ever eaten veal before, but recently found a deal on some veal
(a large hunk with a long bone along one side) and purchased it
at .79/lb. I just looked up veal on-line and read they were young
cows. I was shocked because their meat is so light in color...not at
all beef-like. (yes...I am a clueless city girl!) Then I read on to
learn that they are fed lots of milk (or even milk-substitue), and not
allowed to roam very much, hence the light color of the meat. I read
some are also fed corn-meal, hay, or grain for a time before being
slaughtered. Wouldn't this all mean that they are not quite as
nutritious as other types of meat?? I'm guessing they'd be pretty low
in O-3 as well. I'm just trying to gather info so I can determine what
place the veal will have in my carnivores' diet!

Thanks,

Nancy

Messages in this topic (1)
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9a. Re: Bacteria and raw feeding.
Posted by: "miensasis" kpmnlm@patmedia.net miensasis
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 11:42 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Mystykalsky" <jacklab@...> wrote:
>
> I have 3 kids here and I can certainly say that I DON"T handle the
food carefuly.. NOT ONE BIT...
> my door handles are handled by ME full of raw food on them and I
think of cleaning them..but NEVER do...

It is so interesting how our comfort levels vary. At a recent vet
visit, I decided to feel my vet out about raw. (he does not know we
feed raw) I told him I was researching raw diets, specifically whole
prey, and asked what he thought about them. I was surprised when he
said he thought they were very good for dogs and that he has a
breeder friend who feeds a raw whole-prey model. He said he tried it
for a time with his greyhound and the dog did very well...even had
bald patches of fur grow back in...but that he eventually abandoned
raw to kibble because it was "too much work". I asked him why fully
expecting him to say he was doing grinding, grains, veggies,
supplements...but in fact it was because he was so meticulous about
the clean-up afterwards with bleaching and disinfecting...that he
burned out!

I, for one, have slacked off quite a bit in this area. It was a huge
concern for me when I started raw. (Hey...I grew up with my Polish
babci (grandma) was**still is at age 81**the mistress of clean.) But
I've fallen into a routine of feeding the dogs on the linoleum
kitchen floor and put a lot of faith in the vinegar and water mixture
for clean up of the floor area where they ate and counter surfaces
afterwards. But I don't obsess and am pretty much done with the
clean up after a few squirts and wipes with a rag.

Nancy

Messages in this topic (22)
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10a. Re: Need to share the excitement!!
Posted by: "Gayle" gayle@gayleturner.net gayle28607
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:02 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Loraine Jesse <rothburg@...> wrote:
>
>
> "don't know anybody else who understands how great this is, lol!!"
>
> Oh Yes I do. I would be thrilled in the same situation and must admit
that when I find a deal on any kind of meat that I am thrilled to bits.
> Loraine Jessewww.rothburgrottweilers.com
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> S--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Loraine Jesse wrote:>> > "don't
know anybody else who understands how great this is, lol!!"> > Oh Yes I
do. I would be thrilled in the same situation and must admit that when I
find a deal on any kind of meat that I am thrilled to bits. > Loraine
Jessewww.rothburgrottweilers.com>

I am so happy for you! As soon as I read your message I looked to see
where you live - Germany, alas.

I am in Boone, NC, in the USA, and am still searching for a similar
source. What butchers and meat processors here keep telling me is that
USDA rules *prevent* them from giving me scraps, which the ribs and leg
tops often are for hunters. You will understand my sorrow and
frustration as I had this conversation for the second time while
standing over a huge garbage can full of beautiful venison trim - which
he was bound and determined to throw away!!!

I still don't really understand what the rules are here. It makes me
think that we have gone loco. A hunter gave me the lower legs and head
out in the parking lot before his deer went in for processing. This made
the butcher angry. I understand this is his business and he doesn't want
any grief, so I left and will leave him in peace. Yet it would seem that
if someone wants to give you their scraps before or after entering the
processing room...

So, my quest continues, buoyed by your success!

Congratulations.

Gayle and Chakotay

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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10b. Re: Need to share the excitement!!
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:42 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Gayle" <gayle@...> wrote:

> I still don't really understand what the rules are here. It makes me
> think that we have gone loco. A hunter gave me the lower legs and head
> out in the parking lot before his deer went in for processing. This made
> the butcher angry. I understand this is his business and he doesn't want
> any grief, so I left and will leave him in peace. Yet it would seem that
> if someone wants to give you their scraps before or after entering the
> processing room...
>
Aaaw- that is really sad! =( Hope you find a way to get the good
stuff. Crossing my fingers for you!!

Jennifer

Messages in this topic (6)
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11a. Re: Chew treats?
Posted by: "eyed_blue" eyed_blue@yahoo.co.uk eyed_blue
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:42 pm ((PST))

My dog loves pigs ears as a chew treat but they do put the weight on,
I also give him frozen bones, which he loves, seems to prefer them
that way. I was giving him the odd marrow bone when he was 'tiny' but
since learning on the list how many dogs break their teeth on them, i
stopped this.

I also feed rawhides as they say 100% natural on the tag, can you tell
me what is the problem with them? I dont want to keep feeding them to
him if they are not good for him.

My dog must be the odd one out here, he will NOT eat 'bully sticks'
but perhaps this is a blessing since they STINK!!! LOL

Natalie

Messages in this topic (6)
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11b. Re: Chew treats?
Posted by: "eyed_blue" eyed_blue@yahoo.co.uk eyed_blue
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:42 pm ((PST))

Sorry I also meant to say that the frozen bones are fed on a small
tarpauline, if it comes off then i put it back, if he keeps moving it,
i take it off him, this seems to work, as they realise they have to
stay on it or lose the treat. Because its plastic, i can wipe any
bits up with a bit kitchen roll or baby wipe then mop with soapy water
(thinking of trying white vinegar soon tho)and my floor/furnishings
havent had meat/bones on.

Natalie

Messages in this topic (6)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12309

There are 11 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Doh. i read the archives!
From: Giselle

2. Red Meats?
From: T Smith

3a. Re: Nutritional changes in Freeze Dried raw food
From: Bumble1994@aol.com

4. S.O.S and venison ribs in NE Michigan
From: johnsonkp200

5.1. Newbie
From: kellyomran
5.2. Re: Newbie
From: bluegracepwd

6a. Kevins recipe page
From: alimaxral

7. Newbie, question about hungry dog.
From: Sarah

8a. goose
From: Rebecca Little
8b. Re: goose
From: Kathie Middlemiss

9.1. Introduction
From: Cathy Richmond

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Doh. i read the archives!
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:24 am ((PST))

Hi, Heather!
NPs, and YQW! ^_^

Its always gratifying when helpful messages keep on informing people.

The info in that message should do the trick.

Looking back over it, I didn't emphasize that the proteins I'd suggested be
mainstays of the diet be very low fat, by feeding leaner meats and also by
trimming visible fat from meats. Rabbit, fish, turkey is great, but chicken
and other meats can be fed too, if you trim fat, and skin sometimes.

Feeding organs, liver, of course, but also kidney, pancreas, thymus, spleen,
etc. is very important, but should be introduced slowly, and in tiny
portions with a meal.

I think that whole prey could be especially beneficial to an IBD/IBS dog, by
providing ALL parts of prey animals - feeding Frankenprey may not be
critical in a 'normal' dog's diet, but it is something I wished I'd been
more proactive in providing for my little IBD dog. I can send you some links
to online sources of small whole prey if you're interested.

Lastly, and this is just my hindsight working overtime,
I-wish-I'd-known-better talking, but my little guy died, not from IBD, but
from a large tumor growing undetected in his liver. It got to a size that
affected his ability to store glycogen, sending his blood sugar through the
roof, and surgery wasn't an option at that point. Just as a warning, *use*
your vet to do what they do best, get tests and x-rays done to rule out
other possible diagnoses or complications.

BUT, don't let him talk diet to you! ; )

HTH
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On Nov 23, 2007 8:32 PM, <recyclerat@aol.com> wrote:

> Forgive my hasty email - immediately after hitting send on that one, I
> started reading thru the archives for this group and found a super helpful
> email
> from Giselle to Millie -
>
> just wanted to say sorry for the desperate plea - and thanks, to Giselle
> for
> that very lengthy and help filled email to that other person. I will go to
>
> bed tonight with a plan for tomorrow.
>
> .heather.
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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2. Red Meats?
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:15 am ((PST))

Confused as usual :-)
Heart is not considered an organ when feeding but is it considered RED
meat? I know that may sound like a stupid question but I am not sure if i
count it as red meat.
Also, I had asked before but did not see any reply. How much red meat
should be average fed?
I am feeding mostly chicken (still new to the diet) but wanting to introduce
more red meats.
Of course, some of my dogs HATE liver & I forgot what else is considered
organ? I know 5% needs to be liver so we will cross that bridge one dog at
a time :-) I need to know what other organs are out there that I can get.
I think I should start adding a bit of red meats & varieties now.....
So, what are red meat? What % should be red meat?
Thanks,
Trina

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3a. Re: Nutritional changes in Freeze Dried raw food
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:16 am ((PST))

In a message dated 11/24/2007 12:10:32 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, "Deena"
writes:

I also feed her raw pancreas to keep her diabetes under control.

****
Hi, Deena,

I don't have any knowledge of freeze dried raw food, but I thought this
website regarding diabetes in cats might be of interest and help to you, if you
aren't familiar with it. The vet who has the site is a recognized authority on
the subject and advocates raw feeding.

_http://yourdiabeticcat.com/diet.html_ (http://yourdiabeticcat.com/diet.html)

Lynda

**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest
products.
(http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)

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4. S.O.S and venison ribs in NE Michigan
Posted by: "johnsonkp200" sunfiretervs@comcast.net johnsonkp200
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:16 am ((PST))

Newbie here, my Tervuren went from k**** to fresh ground chuck (mixed
with a non-grain base) for about 10 days, sometimes with added raw
chicken gizzard/hearts. He took to that like a duck to water, so
yesterday he had his first and only chicken leg quarter. He was a
natural at chewing it, with no ill effects excapt a very small arf next
morning of 2 tiny bits which he ate right away, yum!

Today a hunter gave me both rib sides from a fresh killed white tailed
deer. There appears to be good meat on them (for a deer), but, the
bones feel so fragile and sharp to me (it is a deer, after all). At
this point of his transition, should I set one slab down and let him
have it? Should I freeze it for 24 hrs first (I've heard that about
game/parasites), or should I wait until ? (how long) to give it to him?

Karen in NE Michigan

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5.1. Newbie
Posted by: "kellyomran" kellyomran@yahoo.com kellyomran
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:16 am ((PST))

+++Mod note, please don't forget to sign your emails ++++++++

Hi there, I have just been introduced to the raw diet. I havent even
adopted my puppy yet, but am trying to learn as much as I can about
everything dog in the next few months.

I have done a looooot of reading tonight and I think I have the basics
down. I'm so inspired that I am going to buy a meat grinder and make
all the food myself. (Hope I'm not getting in over my head here!)

I wanted to see if anyone out there has any advice on whether or not
it is safe for a small dog (pug or yorkie...I'm still undecided) to
eat raw? I know that they can eat ground meat, but am concerned that
this will not be enough to keep their teeth clean. Can they chew
bones? If so, should I give them bones with meat on it (ie-chicken
thigh) or should I give them ground meat and allow them to chew a bone
for dessert?

Thanks!

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5.2. Re: Newbie
Posted by: "bluegracepwd" janea@tpg.com.au bluegracepwd
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:19 am ((PST))

Hello Newbie,

Ok, keep reading. There is absolutely no need for a grinder. Nature
makes the meat fine - there's is little need for you to interfere too
much at all.

Why would it be unsafe for a small dog to eat raw?

Of course they can chew bones, and in fact, they absolutely must chew
bones to get the dental benefits and minimise the risk of periodontal
disease.

Let us know how you get on.

cheers

Jane
www.bluegrace.com

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6a. Kevins recipe page
Posted by: "alimaxral" albrooker@bigpond.com alimaxral
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:16 am ((PST))

>to find out what others are feeding, take a look at Kevin's
> recipe page, keep an eye out for sales on beef, pork, lamb, fish,
>various

Hi, I have just started feeding my two dogs raw food 2 days ago
(chicken so far). It does feel a little daunting at first and I keep
looking for the hard bit to understand and make it
complicated.....thanks for posting the link to Kevins recipe page! I
laughed out loud and it really just reinforced for me that it really IS
that simple :) I have an abbatoir nearby and will visit soon to see
what I can scavange. Loved the list of meats...it helps to have it
spelled out for us newbies.

Thanks
Alison

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7. Newbie, question about hungry dog.
Posted by: "Sarah" hecarte@hotmail.com sarah_uk_2000_2001
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:16 am ((PST))

Hi, I am very new to raw feeding, just started 9 days ago. I've been
feeding chicken this week to my terrier mix (8.3 kgs in weight) and he
is really enjoying it. I'm giving him 3% of his body weight per day
but he still seems really hungry - he's 'hunting' for food in the house
and keeps going to where I feed him in the kitchen and also sitting in
front of the fridge. I feed him twice a day - once after morning walk,
(about 9am) then after afternoon walk (about 2pm).

Could this be because he's enjoying the raw food so much? I switched
to raw food diet from Arden Grange dry food as he really didn't want to
eat the dry. I read that small dogs should sometimes get 4% of their
body weight - is 8.3kg classed as a small dog?

Also, I was wondering is it ok to get frozen meat from the supermarket
(such as frozen turkey/chicken?). So far I've been buying fresh, then
freezing it in portion sizes.

I bought some chicken liver and gave him a thumb nail sized piece
yesterday. When is it advisable to start feeding liver regularly?

I've been reading this list with interest and have gotten a lot of help
so far.

Regards, Sarah (UK)

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8a. goose
Posted by: "Rebecca Little" pbgs@delhitel.net canucme278
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:52 am ((PST))

Does anyone ever feed goose? A friend gave me two very fresh geese(he just shot them) and after a great deal of work to get the feathers off I put them in freezer bags for the 10 day wait before I feed them but just wondering if anybody feeds goose and about the bones ect....i know alot of people don't feed turkey(other then necks) d/t the bones being hard is it the same for geese or not?
Rebecca Little
Peakes Brook German Shepherds
http://sites.centralpets.com/mammals/peakesbrookgsd/index.html

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8b. Re: goose
Posted by: "Kathie Middlemiss" geekgirl717@gmail.com katjermid
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:37 am ((PST))

Rebecca:

I'm not exactly a raw feeding veteran only having been doing it since
the end of August. But I can tell you that my guys have eaten turkey
with no hesitation, bones and all. They often get ribs and thick chops
as well (pork and beef) and go through those bones like nothing as
well. I have never heard of turkey bones being 'too hard' and as geese
are birds of flight I can only imagine that they would be much easier
for a dog to work through than say pork or beef.

I would feed the goose without hesitation, personally. Lucky you for
having such a generous friend! Lucky pups! :)

Kathie M.

Rebecca Little wrote:
>
> Does anyone ever feed goose? A friend gave me two very fresh geese(he
> just shot them) and after a great deal of work to get the feathers off
> I put them in freezer bags for the 10 day wait before I feed them but
> just wondering if anybody feeds goose and about the bones ect....i
> know alot of people don't feed turkey(other then necks) d/t the bones
> being hard is it the same for geese or not?
> Rebecca Little
>

--

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9.1. Introduction
Posted by: "Cathy Richmond" batcathy@sbcglobal.net batcathy2002
Date: Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:52 am ((PST))

Hello- my name is Cathy and I am "owned" by 7 Chinese Cresteds. I have
been raw feeding for about 2 years now with trial & error and a few
bumps in the road. I spent the day reading all through the info sent to
me but have a couple questions as I am a bit pc stupid....LOL
Does archives mean the posts listed under links and how do I trim posts?
I have been following the IBS thread as it sounds like my little girl.
My vet has treated her numerous times for diarrea & cramps with stool
samples each time but have never had a diagnose of any thing in
particular. He is neither pro/anti on the raw but has said he feels she
in particular cant handle it. I am sure that in a natural setting she
would have died.....but as she was my first litter & I was not about to
lose her i kept her alive untill she was strong enough to suckle. At 2
yrs she is 11 inches and only 7.9 lbs...up from 6 but about 2 pounds
under....so I am looking for advise to help her. I am always up for
learning and will be grateful to any & all advise. Thankyou in advance.
Cathy

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