[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12414

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Raw and tear stains
From: tobrlaka
1b. Re: Raw and tear stains
From: rosey031801

2a. Re: Dry skin in older, raw fed dog
From: mozookpr

3a. Prey model for ten months
From: mathamgri
3b. Re: Prey model for ten months
From: Yasuko herron
3c. Re: Prey model for ten months
From: Amy Tracy
3d. Re: Prey model for ten months
From: mathamgri
3e. Re: Prey model for ten months
From: katkellm
3f. Re: Prey model for ten months
From: mathamgri

4a. Re: Charley's Off his feed
From: becca1066
4b. Re: Charley's Off his feed
From: Irene Clark

5a. Re: Whole chickens
From: Yasuko herron

6a. Gas
From: mathamgri

7. Re: Introducing the raw food diet! HELP!!!
From: joan spencer

8a. Re: Christmas feast ..
From: homesforallpets

9a. Re: HUNGRY DOG
From: pamela993748

10a. Re: frozen??
From: Sandee Lee
10b. Re: frozen??
From: katkellm

11a. Re: Little poo question
From: costrowski75
11b. Re: Little poo question
From: costrowski75

12a. Re: Hip Dysplasia
From: costrowski75

13a. dry nose
From: Karen Ditton
13b. Re: dry nose
From: nkayl

14a. Re: Need a logical response
From: jmwise80

15. fed cooked tonight
From: jmwise80

Messages
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1a. Raw and tear stains
Posted by: "tobrlaka" tobrlaka@nwi.net tobrlaka
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 1:44 pm ((PST))

Hi group.
I mentioned my pound puppy/spaniel mix, Sophie, and her venture into
raw yesterday. I am not sure what she ate before we adopted her, but
since she was kept in a dirt pen outside, and not very well
socialized,I can't imagine that her food was very high in quality.
I suspect she had table scraps or cheap kibble.

I am troubled that since we got her, and began feeding her raw, she
has developed tear stains. Otherwise, she has manifest the usual
changes with raw (better coat, better weight, more energy, etc), but
it bothers me to look at her pound pictures and see no tear staining
at all, and look at her now, looking all the part a sad clown.

Otherwise, she looks/acts very healthy. There is no foul odor or
other sign of eye irritation associated with the staining.

Someone I was talking with suggested there was a connection between
"too much bone marrow" and "leaking toxins out her eyes," which I've
not heard of before....and I thought I'd check with you all before I
discount it entirely.

Do any of you experienced dog people/raw feeders have any advice on a
possible connection between raw food and tear stains?
As I mentioned yesterday, she is still getting used to digesting
bones, so most of the bones she eats are chicken(which she handles
well now). She does get other sources of meat, but not so much of
bone, but we are working on that.

THANKS
brenda

Messages in this topic (2)
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1b. Re: Raw and tear stains
Posted by: "rosey031801" rosey031801@sbcglobal.net rosey031801
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:18 pm ((PST))

I am a Groomer and I have lots of clients tell me that tap water makes
tear stains much worse. Try giving her only distilled water for a
while ( 6 months).
Cheryl

Messages in this topic (2)
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2a. Re: Dry skin in older, raw fed dog
Posted by: "mozookpr" mozookpr@yahoo.com mozookpr
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 1:48 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "francesdrew" <francesdrew@...>
wrote:
>
> I have a 12 year old large dog (boxer, ridgeback mix) and she's
been on raw for about 8
> weeks now. She's looking healthy but her skin seems to be dry and
a bit itchy.
>
>
Frances,

Is this something you have noticed before in the winter? It could be
as simple as dry air. The average centrally heated home has a
relative humidity similar to that of the Sahara Desert. A sure sign
would be if YOU feel itchier in the winter, without using lots of
lotions and skin creams. I sure do, and hard water makes it even
worse.

I am a new raw feeder, too, and years of exposure to propoganda from
the pet food industry have left their mark. I can see the good
results from a raw diet, but I still find myself being extra vigilant
about every little twitch and tickle. Most times, I realize it is
not something new at all, but only something I notice more now
because of those old fears. Itchy skin could be a result of the new
food, I suppose, but there are other causes that are just as likely,
and probably more so. I have an itchy dog, too, who chews his
backside and gets terrible hot spots. I was told it was either flea-
bite dermititis (we had no fleas) or a food allergy (highly possible
given the kibble he was eating.) He seems to be improving on raw.
The problem has not been eliminated yet, but the chewing has
definitely decreased, and the rest of his coat looks fuller and more
luxuriant.

In the long run, raw feeding should help with dry skin. Forget the
cod liver oil, BTW, and use fish body oil instead. My dogs love
their salmon oil!

Cheers,

Wendy

Messages in this topic (4)
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3a. Prey model for ten months
Posted by: "mathamgri" mathamgri@yahoo.com mathamgri
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:05 pm ((PST))

Hi Group,

It's been awhile but I thought it might be fun to report the
progress on my dogs and cats, who have been raw for over two years
and prey-model for about nine months.

My boy dogs (three Standard Poodles, ages ten, two, and one) are
doing wonderfully well. They eat what I put in front of them. They
have startlingly white teeth, boundless energy and a calm
disposition. My oldest dog, who was dog aggressive, has stopped that
behavior. Perhaps a combination of some training, but I really
attribute it primarily to the change in diet. The other day when my
two young dogs were yelling through the fence at the neighbor's
dogs, he continued to sniff around a tree stump and showed no
inclination at all to become involved. A miracle! He also has had no
ear infections since going raw, and he had chronic ear infections
his whole life. Last month, I noticed first thing in the morning
that he was breathing funny and had a distended gut. I suspected
that he had eaten everybody's food the night before (about six
pounds of ground beef, which I usually don't feed), but I took him
to the vet, anyway. After doing an xray, it was easy to see a huge
stomach full of ground meat. But my vet also commented on the fact
that he was showing absolutely no signs of arthritis in the bone
that was visible on the xray. He also was pleasantly surprised to
find that his heart looked good, with no enlargement, although he
has had a heart murmer since puppyhood, which rated on a scale of
one-to-five rates a five. He commented positively on the condition
of his teeth, despite the fact that I haven't had them cleaned in
over five years. We did a blood work-up just for the heck of it, and
the results of that were well within normal range. All in all, not
bad for a ten-year-old.

My three cats (a long-haired tabby girl, aged nine, and two boy
Devon Rex, aged two and six-months), are eating well. My oldest
Devon does not like beef and pork, but will eat poultry, gizzards
and heart with great relish. I do have a problem, though. Kittens
introduced into the household in the last two years have all gotten
a cold. It runs it's course in a seemingly normal manner, but their
eyes do not completely clear up, and the watery discharge seems to
come and go and vary in intensity. This is the case with both
purebred cats and mixes. And two adult mixed-breed cats came down
with runny eyes, which lasted about ten days and then cleared up
completely. But in the kittens it seems to persist. Any suggestions?

Overall, I'm very pleased with the condition of my animals. They
have never been healthier, and my vet, who I used to see more
frequently than my husband, has become almost a stranger.

Hannah

Messages in this topic (6)
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3b. Re: Prey model for ten months
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:54 pm ((PST))

> The other day when my two young dogs were yelling through the fence at the neighbor's
dogs, he continued to sniff around a tree stump and showed no inclination at all to become involved.

Same with palette.She never bark back or lunch to dog.Most-likely,other side of dogs do barking and jumping to fence and all those acts and palette is careless what other dogs are doing anfd just continue walking. I am not sure if it is food that makes change but,she is not luncher anymore.

> He also has had no ear infections since going raw

Maybe grain less diet maybe helping your dog.I too find out although she has no infection on ear but I find myself cleaning her ear very very less time than other time on kibble.I do not see any dirty ear for long long time and occasionary,I wipe but it is not a lot to wipe.

>. But my vet also commented on the fact that he was showing absolutely no signs of arthritis in the bone that was visible on the xray.

I think your dog getting natural glucosamin through whole foods maybe helping your dog.My dog used to limp and no vets knows why she was limping(first they thought that it was Cruciual ligament tore but after surgery time,they found no tore in ligament so,they just opened leg and without dsoing anything,they closed up.

After I gave glucosamin tablet remembering our local vet told us she has possible arthritis in x-ray pic and,I started giving it and limping has stopped but after switching to raw,I do not give any glucosamin tab at all but she is fine,run like a wind! Very good,

Overaoll,for palette,rawfeeding is way to go and giving her benefit to be fed so.

yassy

---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

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Messages in this topic (6)
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3c. Re: Prey model for ten months
Posted by: "Amy Tracy" amypatriciatracy@gmail.com rosiesmomlovesrosie
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:54 pm ((PST))

As a new-to-the-raw-scene-girl, I'm encouraged to hear the story of your
poodles, Hannah. Thanks for the great report! And good luck with the
kitties (-:
Merry Christmas all!
Amy (and Rosie)

On Dec 23, 2007 3:51 PM, mathamgri <mathamgri@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hi Group,
>
> It's been awhile but I thought it might be fun to report the
> progress on my dogs and cats, who have been raw for over two years
> and prey-model for about nine months.
>
> My boy dogs (three Standard Poodles, ages ten, two, and one) are
> doing wonderfully well. They eat what I put in front of them. They
> have startlingly white teeth, boundless energy and a calm
> disposition. My oldest dog, who was dog aggressive, has stopped that
> behavior. Perhaps a combination of some training, but I really
> attribute it primarily to the change in diet. The other day when my
> two young dogs were yelling through the fence at the neighbor's
> dogs, he continued to sniff around a tree stump and showed no
> inclination at all to become involved. A miracle! He also has had no
> ear infections since going raw, and he had chronic ear infections
> his whole life. Last month, I noticed first thing in the morning
> that he was breathing funny and had a distended gut. I suspected
> that he had eaten everybody's food the night before (about six
> pounds of ground beef, which I usually don't feed), but I took him
> to the vet, anyway. After doing an xray, it was easy to see a huge
> stomach full of ground meat. But my vet also commented on the fact
> that he was showing absolutely no signs of arthritis in the bone
> that was visible on the xray. He also was pleasantly surprised to
> find that his heart looked good, with no enlargement, although he
> has had a heart murmer since puppyhood, which rated on a scale of
> one-to-five rates a five. He commented positively on the condition
> of his teeth, despite the fact that I haven't had them cleaned in
> over five years. We did a blood work-up just for the heck of it, and
> the results of that were well within normal range. All in all, not
> bad for a ten-year-old.
>
> My three cats (a long-haired tabby girl, aged nine, and two boy
> Devon Rex, aged two and six-months), are eating well. My oldest
> Devon does not like beef and pork, but will eat poultry, gizzards
> and heart with great relish. I do have a problem, though. Kittens
> introduced into the household in the last two years have all gotten
> a cold. It runs it's course in a seemingly normal manner, but their
> eyes do not completely clear up, and the watery discharge seems to
> come and go and vary in intensity. This is the case with both
> purebred cats and mixes. And two adult mixed-breed cats came down
> with runny eyes, which lasted about ten days and then cleared up
> completely. But in the kittens it seems to persist. Any suggestions?
>
> Overall, I'm very pleased with the condition of my animals. They
> have never been healthier, and my vet, who I used to see more
> frequently than my husband, has become almost a stranger.
>
> Hannah
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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3d. Re: Prey model for ten months
Posted by: "mathamgri" mathamgri@yahoo.com mathamgri
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 5:32 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Amy Tracy"
<amypatriciatracy@...> wrote:
>
> As a new-to-the-raw-scene-girl, I'm encouraged to hear the story
of your
> poodles, Hannah. Thanks for the great report! And good luck with
the
> kitties (-:
> Merry Christmas all!
> Amy (and Rosie)
>
> On Dec 23, 2007 3:51 PM, mathamgri <mathamgri@...> wrote:
>
> >
Hi Amy,

I'm glad my post was helpful. I'm so pleased with feeding raw. I'm
complimented often on how beautiful my boys are. They radiate with
energy and health. I feel good when I look at them and I know I am
doing the right thing. I frequently feed big and I often allow them
to eat as much as they want. They don't seem to get fat, and I don't
think poodles run to fat, anyway. They are so strong! I can feel it
when they tug with me. They remind me of a forty pound sled dog (fed
primarily frozen salmon) that I could barely hang onto in Alaska
years ago when a bitch in heat walked by. I don't think any of my
dogs in the past, same breed included, have ever been as strong as
these raw dogs are. I don't care for cutting meat, so when I feed
turkey I put one dog in my warehouse with the bird (I can observe
him through the window) and when he barks at the door or I think
enough time has passed, I let him in and send the next one out. I
put the leftover turkey in a bowl in my cooler and feed it until
it's gone. A large turkey will last the dogs and cats about three
days with a little left over. I feed other large cuts of meat this
way, too, especially if is it has a bone. My dogs do weigh
themselves often, not because I think they should, but because I
have a floor scale in my warehouse and they frequently sit on it
when waiting to come through the door. Their weight fluctuates very
little, only as you would expect, weighing more after a gorge meal.
When I first started feeding prey-model, I had the usual barfing
problems. My oldest dog would swallow things whole and barf them up
almost immediately, then someone else would come along and eat it.
(He never would.) But barfing is infrequent now, and usually
associated with eating foreign things on hikes, or occasionally the
cats will upcheck some chicken bone pieces. I'm comfortable with the
whole thing now, and I really enjoy watching my kids eat. They all
had to learn to hold the food down with their foot and tear with
their teeth. Sometimes they get quite a workout, and it looks so
much more natural than watching them stand over a bowl of kibble. I
was amused with my tiny kitten, who jumped on my kitchen counter,
chewed a hole in the plastic on a thawing turkey, and spent the
whole day guarding it and nibbling on the thigh. It was ten times
his size!

Enjoy the journey!

Hannah

Messages in this topic (6)
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3e. Re: Prey model for ten months
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 6:44 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mathamgri" <mathamgri@...> wrote:
I frequently feed big and I often allow them
> to eat as much as they want.
>
> Enjoy the journey!
>
Hi Hannah,
You just done and went and made my day. Never before have i ever seen
anyone, sorry if i missed it, but me call it a journey. I think raw
feeding has been an amazing and incredible path of health and growth
for not just my dogs, but me as well. Just when i thought raw feeding
couldn't be much better i turned down the path that lead to whole
turkeys and big meals and letting my dogs eat until they told me they
were full. I always thought that i was just over emotional-lots of
people would second that thought-but i guess if i am, you are, too.
Happy Holidays to you, soul sister. KathyM

Messages in this topic (6)
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3f. Re: Prey model for ten months
Posted by: "mathamgri" mathamgri@yahoo.com mathamgri
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:05 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "katkellm" <katkellm@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mathamgri" <mathamgri@> wrote:
> I frequently feed big and I often allow them
> > to eat as much as they want.
> >
> >> Happy Holidays to you, soul sister. KathyM
>
Ditto to all that!

Hannah

Messages in this topic (6)
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4a. Re: Charley's Off his feed
Posted by: "becca1066" becca1066@yahoo.com becca1066
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:05 pm ((PST))

Well, the whole family's been under alot of stress... but the palce
on his tail goes back-I really thought is was from some kind of bite-
and the first place is healed, but hes started on a place higher up
his tail. I wouldn't think he ingested enough to matter-he's a big
(115 lb) dog, and its a small smot so not a lot of iodine/hydrogen
peroxide

He is neutered, cant think of any other changes right now, no temp.,
and hes currently an only dog-and no other dogs even close, although
he was haveing a fit about the neighbors cows Thursday

What else do you suggest for his tail? I'm out of colloidal silver
and no way to get any until after Christmas

I didn't think about stress as hes pretty laid back, but you could
be right. Now, if I can find the Rescue Remedy, I'll dose both of
us!

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
wrote:
>> My guess is whatever stress started him chewing his tail is the
same
> stress that has him off his food. ........>
> OTOH, whatever has him off his food could also be stress that has
> started him chewing. What came first? Is he intact? Is there a
> bitch in season in the area?
>
> OTOH, both ingested peroxide and iodine can cause nausea, so
perhaps
> the treatment you are using on his tail (there are less invasive
ones
> for sure) is what's putting him off his food.
>
> In lieu of taking him to the vet, I'd recommend looking for the
> stressors in his life right now, using a different approach to his
> tail chewing, and keeping watch for symptoms that may indicate a
more
> specific health issue. Does he have a temp?
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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4b. Re: Charley's Off his feed
Posted by: "Irene Clark" ireneclark@gmail.com irenespoms
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:54 pm ((PST))

A quarter teaspoon peroxide made my 80lb Chocolate Lab throw up all day long
when give recently (ate a bar of chocolate bark for making candy...ugh
Labs!) so I wouldn't be surprised if stress and peroxide had your baby of
his stride.
Irene

On Dec 23, 2007 3:59 PM, becca1066 <becca1066@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Well, the whole family's been under alot of stress... but the palce
> on his tail goes back-I really thought is was from some kind of bite-
> and the first place is healed, but hes started on a place higher up
> his tail. I wouldn't think he ingested enough to matter-he's a big
> (115 lb) dog, and its a small smot so not a lot of iodine/hydrogen
> peroxide
>
> He is neutered, cant think of any other changes right now, no temp.,
> and hes currently an only dog-and no other dogs even close, although
> he was haveing a fit about the neighbors cows Thursday
>
> What else do you suggest for his tail? I'm out of colloidal silver
> and no way to get any until after Christmas
>
> I didn't think about stress as hes pretty laid back, but you could
> be right. Now, if I can find the Rescue Remedy, I'll dose both of
> us!
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com <rawfeeding%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...>
> wrote:
> >> My guess is whatever stress started him chewing his tail is the
> same
> > stress that has him off his food. ........>
> > OTOH, whatever has him off his food could also be stress that has
> > started him chewing. What came first? Is he intact? Is there a
> > bitch in season in the area?
> >
> > OTOH, both ingested peroxide and iodine can cause nausea, so
> perhaps
> > the treatment you are using on his tail (there are less invasive
> ones
> > for sure) is what's putting him off his food.
> >
> > In lieu of taking him to the vet, I'd recommend looking for the
> > stressors in his life right now, using a different approach to his
> > tail chewing, and keeping watch for symptoms that may indicate a
> more
> > specific health issue. Does he have a temp?
> > Chris O
> >
>
>
>

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Messages in this topic (4)
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5a. Re: Whole chickens
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:54 pm ((PST))

>I have been feeding home cooked with chicken for years.

Hi.Wow.... Isn't that very time-consuming?? After switching my dog to raw,I read many books or lists on rawfeeding or home-cooked and learnt what it is like,how it is done,and if they give something that I don't,I tried learning why they give why so benefit to dogs. But I felt that prey model sounded more natural feeding and more better than any feeding out there.

Barf is the first one I read about and it felt like so much bone in meal and little meat in it and,gives wiered stuff like sour cream or cottage cheese,ricotta cheese...and then,some gives green leaf veg and some don't.But cottage cheese has lots of salt so,I am not sure if they are giving way too much salt in food or not.

Home-cooked sounded based on grain or fiber material and then added meat to it with some supplement. Was that how you did? I read someone bought 80lb of sweet potatoes in fall to make huge batch of recipe (in other list) but I do not see myself peeling 80lb of sweet potato and cook them all and mash them so that dog can eat it..I have just one dog but it looks time consuming still.

Plus,I feel that home-cooked seemed to have quite lot of carb which dog doesn't need.
Rawfeeding has so much moisture in meal so,I read that it is good to prevent forming crysrtal or parasite or skin probs.It is not a magical feeding way,but sounded best.I also read that grain aggreviate arthritis and sometimes the cause of itchy prob and some veggies are the same.So,overall,diet based on lots of meat;prey model looked best to me and i think you made right choice.You would find shinier coat,sweet breath smell,pearly white teeth dog with calm dog attitude. My husband really likes our dog doesn't smell so bad after petting her,and it is such a pride of things when you go to vet when she/he tells you your dog looks so nice in teeth or coat or wahtever. I really feel good when they tell us like that and feel glad again I found the better feeding to our dog and know that best care possible we are giving to her.

*****I guess I need to cut the chickens up. Cut the chickens up into
pieces because I feed twice a day.

But make sure you don't cut the chicken to 1 inch chunk or something that encourage the dog to swallow.First some weeks,you observe your dogh how they eats and learn thew eating habit and use that to judge the meal size or waht to feed. Like some people seem to have prob to feed Turkey neck for example because shape and size and worry about choking hazard.But my dog chew ok,and she likes Turkey Neck a lot so,I feed Turkey Neck and I have no prob feeding them.

> So I got two and 4 lbs of frozen liver. I am thinking (already defrosted) of adding
slivers to the morning feed.

Ok,sounds good to me. You know organs are 10% intake of daily feeding amount you figured out.So, take that amount as goal and then, feed from maybe like pinky nail size of liver and increase to your dog intake amount gradually.

If you feed 4 legged animal's you can feed 5%liver,5% kidney etc and that makes total10% intake.

As for poultry,gizzard is considered to be musacle meat so,if you really want,you can feed in part of 80% meat intake amount.I feed as side dish though. And poultry heart is same too.It is muscle meat and you feed in part of 80% intake of daily feeding.Again,I feed as part of 80% intake. Only red meat's heart,I feed as main but for poultry,I feed as side dish.

>OK for Daisy, dobe, 4 years old, I got 1.8 lbs or 28.8 oz total daily
> food allowance. Lilly, 16 months old, dobe I got 1.95 or 31.2 oz
> total daily food allowance.

You know what? you can start both dog from 2lb daily intake,and feed 1lb each time you feed.THat would be easier for you. THen,if your dog started chunky head,then,you feed less would be good,

You said that you are afraid of diarrhea prob but,I think you need to try and see how well your dogs do and learn from there. Rawfeeding is always with learning experience in feeding with your dog observation. Don't be scared. If you had diarrhea,then,you can ask us what to do for your dog and everyone should help you out.

I had couple of times of miserable diarrhea day for my dog and I learnmt waht works for her through it. In my case,she seems to have prob in fat% and lamb tongue which has 70% fat is one thing she could not handle more than 1oz at first round.

If it were combined with other boneless meat,she does pretty good.

Just remember,one thing new at a time and move on to the other protin source after your dog did well on the protin you fed.And baby step is the key.Be patient.

yassy

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (8)
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6a. Gas
Posted by: "mathamgri" mathamgri@yahoo.com mathamgri
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:54 pm ((PST))

Oh, one thing I forgot to mention. When my dogs were raw but still
getting grains, they really didn't have any gas problems, but when I
switched them to prey-model, whew, it was intense. It seemed to be
primarily one dog, my two-year-old, but it was hard to pin it down. I
really hoped it would go away with time. It was difficult to explain
to my friends what that horrible smell was and at the same time,
expound upon the merits of the raw diet. I have never encountered a
fart so foul, and although I became somewhat used to the situation, my
friends wanted to leap from my moving vehicle. Fortunately, I've
noticed lately that the gas is diminishing. In fact, I haven't noticed
a really rank one for over two weeks. I think we may be over the hump.

Hannah

Messages in this topic (10)
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7. Re: Introducing the raw food diet! HELP!!!
Posted by: "joan spencer" nachoburrito@yahoo.com nachoburrito
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 3:24 pm ((PST))

The toughest "switching to raw" case I ever dealt with was a three-year-old horribly brutalized Standard Poodle who was 40 pounds of skin and bones. He regarded everything as a weapon, food included. He had been in a Rescue for a year and was not progressing very well at all. He ate only a little k****e in the dark of night---just enough to keep himself alive.

I tried everything I could think of. What finally worked was having my butcher grind up whole chickens along with a little beef liver. I would make patties about the size of a quarter, saute them just a bit to bring out the aroma, AND coat each bite with a tiny smear of liquid smoke flavoring (after having tried garlic and other flavors which hadn't worked).

I put three bites on his towel and left the room for a half hour or so before removing the food. The aroma enticed him, but it still took three days for him to get up the courage to eat. Long story short: it took almost a year for him to eat like a normal raw fed dog and get his weight up to 65 pounds. The lesson I learned was that extreme patience, persistence and experimentation will eventually pay off.

Hang in there! Joan

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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8a. Re: Christmas feast ..
Posted by: "homesforallpets" homesforallpets@yahoo.com homesforallpets
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 3:24 pm ((PST))

> Oh dear (grin) As a long time labrador owner I believe labs are the
> dustbins of the universe ! If its edible they will eat it !
>

Oh boy, someone with knowledge! My lil Angel is a Lab. She got into
the trash just before evening meal. I had cleaned out the fridge and
the cat boxes, the diaper genie and the indoor rabbit pans so I can
see the appeal for a dog.

Thank goodness her stools have been fine. I'm noticing that when I
have no raw to offer (bad planning mostly) and she gets only kibble
(trying to get away from it) her stools are loose and stinky. Is it
because of the switching? Just because the stuff is awful for her? I
dunno, but glad to know there is someone with breed experience!

Kathy in MO
Angel - Black Lab

Messages in this topic (5)
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9a. Re: HUNGRY DOG
Posted by: "pamela993748" pamduthie@btinternet.com pamela993748
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:26 pm ((PST))

Thankyou all for your responses - v fast and helpful

Kathy I am glad I am not the only one with this problem (knew I
couldnt be)and glad your dog is doing well now

I always though that Ben was doing well before but now I have to say
his coat is much softer and he is more playful in the house - more
like a puppy (and gross I know but the tiny poos are fab too)

Currently I am feeding Ben 2 meals a day and the extra food was in a
3rd meal
But from reading round a bit more I think I migh be feeding him a
bit late at night as well
When he was 'eating' the kibble the only time he really ate anything
was last thing at night after his last walk (I think he was waiting
to see if anyone offered him good treats on the walk) and he has a
really good run last thing at night so I didnt want to feed him
before his exercise
Now he is eating well on raw I just continued feeding him at the
same time and added a am meal (well I had been offereing him a am
meal when on kibble but more often than not he would not eat it)

So I guess I will start feeding him earlier so he does not have
anything in his tum to be sick with

again thankyou all v much, nice that there is so much help here cos
it scary when you 1st think about taking on the responsability for
all your pets neutrition (then once you start so much easier than
you think - except for a few hickups)

Pam (and Ben)

Messages in this topic (15)
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10a. Re: frozen??
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:33 pm ((PST))

Are you asking if pork is ok? Of course it is. Whether or not the butcher
scraps are ok depends on how much fat they contain, how experienced your
dogs are at eating raw, etc. What else are they eating and for how long?

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "joan" <joanlante@yahoo.ca>

Hi...I'm a little new at this and my friend picked up some boxes of
frozen butcher scraps...now one box seems to be a mix of bones...the
other sawed beef? and another sawed porc??? not sure...he saws his meet
not sorted frozen and then the scraps go outside ...I just took the axe
and broke some chunks put it in a bucket of hot water for a minute and
then dropped it on the snow...the dogs (saint-bernard...lab,newf mix)
loved it....is butcher scraps ok containing porc?

Messages in this topic (3)
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10b. Re: frozen??
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 5:32 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "joan" <joanlante@...> wrote:
>
> Hi...I'm a little new at this and my friend picked up some boxes of
> frozen butcher scraps...now one box seems to be a mix of bones...the
> other sawed beef? and another sawed porc???

Hi Joan,
I would be more concerned over the box of bones. Most of the bones
that i have seen at the meat locker are bare naked bones or darn close
to it. Unless the bones are substantially different than the ones i'm
use to seeing, i would be hesitant to feed them. Of course, they
might be covered in meat or leg bones covered with hide and skin and
sinew in which case you can feed them, regardless of the animal they
came from, and remove once the dogs strip them down to bare naked
bones. If they are already stripped bones, you should probably just
toss them. KathyM

Messages in this topic (3)
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11a. Re: Little poo question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 5:09 pm ((PST))

John and Jeni Blackmon <jonjeni777@...> wrote:
> I have had him for two weeks, he was on ground rabbit, whole ground
rabbits, for the first week, then we went to ground chicken, whole
ground chickens, only because I ran out of the rabbit. So he gets the
organs and the bones with everything.
*****
Therein lies the problem perhaps?
Ground commercial product invariably delivers too much bone. I think
if you intend to continue with prechewed food that you either add meat
to each meal or entirely replace half prefab meals with plain old
unadorned raw meat.

A diet doesn't need much edible bone to make a healthy puppy. Prefab
food needs much bone to make a profit. Immutable force meeeting an
immovable object, me thinks.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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11b. Re: Little poo question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 5:19 pm ((PST))

Sherrel Leininger <meawolf50@...> wrote:
I mean if they are too dry add come grease.
*****
I think, Sherrel, that grease would be less appropriate than simply
adding fattier--and raw--food. Even a clump of raw fat would be better
than grease.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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12a. Re: Hip Dysplasia
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 5:17 pm ((PST))

ADMIN: Please take this topic to RawChat or DogHealth. There are a
variety of ways to approach HD but unless they are directly raw diet-
related they do not belong on this list. I'm sure upon consideration
you will agree.
Thank you.
Chris O
Mod Team

Messages in this topic (8)
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13a. dry nose
Posted by: "Karen Ditton" karenditton@urassociation.com karenditton
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 5:30 pm ((PST))

I have a question about my older dog's nose. It has been dry on top for as
long as I can remember. I asked one vet about it a long time ago, and was
told "oh, some dogs are just like that" so I didn't worry about it. Then a
vet we saw recently asked about it and was surprised to hear that no other
vet had been concerned. The new vet said it's a vitamin A deficiency.

The new vet told me to feed my dog a cooked mixture of 2 cups brown rice, 2
pounds ground turkey, 1 pound chicken liver, 1 can of salmon and one can of
green beans. (It was taking about 3 days to go through that mix.) In
addition we were to give my dog some herbs and 10,000 IU of vitamin A each
day. Well… my dog liked the mix the first few days as it probably tasted
better than kibble, but pretty soon was no longer thrilled. (He was never a
good eater on kibble either.) So we were trying to get him to eat as much
as he would and he gained a couple of needed pounds. Also, we did notice
some improvement in the nose.

Because he was eating less and less food, I started looking for other
options. As you know we started feeding raw. The great news is that he has
been eating more (and we don't even have to beg him to eat!) than ever
before and definitely appears to be gaining weight. But, his nose appears
to be a bit dryer again.

Here's what he's been fed since starting the raw diet… first 6 days about ¾
of a whole chicken each day. On about the 3rd day I started giving him the
giblets bag as well. Then starting on day 7 we added pork shoulder to the
diet so now he gets about half chicken and half pork. I'm feeding him 3 lbs
a day which is close to 3% of his ideal weight. We've been on raw 12 days
now. He has continued to get the herbs and vitamin A the whole time.

So… my question is what have I taken away that was helping his nose?
Obviously I don't think the rice or green beans were doing him any good.
And he's getting a lot more meat than the 2 lbs of turkey spread over 3
days. But he's getting less liver and no salmon. I guess it must be one of
these. Liver has a lot of vitamin A, so if the diagnosis was correct that
could be it. (He was getting about 1/3 of a pound of liver daily before,
which is just over 10% of his diet, double the amount recommended here.) On
the other hand salmon has a lot of oil/fat that could have been helping to
"moisturize" his nose.

I am very pleased with the progress we've made since switching to raw! He's
eating well and gaining weight! I don't want to change too much too fast,
but do want to keep slowly moving toward an ideal diet for him. Right now
it's been 6 days since adding pork and his stools are great so I think we
could add something new.

What would you recommend as the next step for my dog???

Thanks again for all the wonderful help!!!

Karen

P.S. The puppy is doing great!!!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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13b. Re: dry nose
Posted by: "nkayl" doglover72@gmail.com nkayl
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 6:12 pm ((PST))

One of my Pugs had a dry nose her whole life. She just turned 5. I've
always just put some Vasaline or Aquafor on it. Not one of the vets
over the years has said anything about it being a vitamen deficiency.
From my Pug groups I gather a dry nose is fairly common and it seems
almost everyone just puts Vasaline on every other day or so. Problem
solved.

Since being fed raw my girls' nose has been much moister and I rarely
need to put gunk on it anymore. She's been raw fed for almost three
months now. Hopefully, your dogs nose well get better with time.
Sometimes it takes awhile to get all the nasty stuff out of their
systems.

Natalie and Bandit

Messages in this topic (2)
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14a. Re: Need a logical response
Posted by: "jmwise80" jmwise80@yahoo.com jmwise80
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 6:49 pm ((PST))

I also wanted to commend you on keeping your wits. Just reading your
story made me feel the moment.(vivid imagination...can't help it)

If anything like that ever happens to dogs, family, friends, or
strangers I hope I can keep composure and take care of the situation
like you. Amazing!

Michael Wise

Messages in this topic (6)
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15. fed cooked tonight
Posted by: "jmwise80" jmwise80@yahoo.com jmwise80
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 6:55 pm ((PST))

Not really. A little squirrel got somewhere on the power lines he
shouldn't have. Turbo has refused whole prey up until tonight. Not
sure if it was the singe or if he just felt like eating tonight. Don't
really care either. Sorry to waste ya'lls time, but I had to tell
somebody. I can't quit smilin'.

Michael Wise

Messages in this topic (1)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12413

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Christmas feast ..
From: URSULA
1b. Re: Christmas feast ..
From: Eddie Scholten
1c. Re: Christmas feast ..
From: sisterloui
1d. Re: Christmas feast ..
From: costrowski75

2a. Re: Charley's Off his feed
From: costrowski75

3a. Re: dehydrated raw
From: katkellm
3b. Re: dehydrated raw
From: costrowski75
3c. Re: dehydrated raw
From: Sandee Lee
3d. Re: dehydrated raw
From: carnesbill

4a. Re: Need a logical response
From: costrowski75
4b. Re: Need a logical response
From: Shelly
4c. Re: Need a logical response
From: diannem200400

5a. Re: Raw and Addison's disease
From: m_smedick

6. frozen??
From: joan

7a. Whole chickens
From: Sherrel Leininger
7b. Re: Whole chickens
From: Yasuko herron
7c. Re: Whole chickens
From: Sherrel Leininger

8a. Re: Looking for advice, support, guidance with Dobe
From: Sherrel Leininger

9.1. Re: So I decided to switch
From: blue eyed

10a. Re: Relevant to several threads -runny stools/ lack of appetite/ wei
From: carnesbill

11a. Little poo question
From: John and Jeni Blackmon
11b. Re: Little poo question
From: Laurie Swanson
11c. Re: Little poo question
From: Sherrel Leininger
11d. Re: Little poo question
From: carnesbill

12a. Re: Hip Dysplasia
From: Lynette Friedrichs

Messages
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1a. Christmas feast ..
Posted by: "URSULA" UCL@NEUF.FR ursula21c
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 6:54 am ((PST))

My two labs helped themselves to a kilo of Medjool dates. I can't say
they shared them but the entire contents of the bowl disappeared from
the kitchen table. These were for a Christmas party and not easy to
get at.
I don't know about dates and dogs and can't imagine why they were
attracted to them in the first place?
Does anyone know of known problems with dates or whether this will
mean a serious case of loose poo.
Ursula
Salies, France

Messages in this topic (4)
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1b. Re: Christmas feast ..
Posted by: "Eddie Scholten" shirl-ed@hotmail.com shirley11964
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:17 am ((PST))

Hi Ursula,

I would think that any great quantity of dried or fresh fruit is likely to cause a reaction.
When I first read your mail, I thought, 'Oh, no! Loose stools are likely.'
But, having said that, I have no experience with this situation so can't offer any real advice.

Good luck with the poo and Merry Christmas!

Shirley (Netherlands).

_________________________________________________________________
Jouw nieuws en entertainment, vind je op MSN.nl!
http://nl.msn.com/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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1c. Re: Christmas feast ..
Posted by: "sisterloui" habershon@aol.com sisterloui
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:26 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "URSULA" <UCL@...> wrote:
>
> My two labs helped themselves to a kilo of Medjool dates. I can't say
> they shared them but the entire contents of the bowl disappeared from
> the kitchen table. These were for a Christmas party and not easy to
> get at.
> I don't know about dates and dogs and can't imagine why they were
> attracted to them in the first place?
> Does anyone know of known problems with dates or whether this will
> mean a serious case of loose poo.
> Ursula
> Salies, France

Oh dear (grin) As a long time labrador owner I believe labs are the
dustbins of the universe ! If its edible they will eat it !

Depending on the amounts eaten I would expect quite a few dashes to the
toilet for them. A bit of a head ache as they will get a sugar rush
from the high sugar content.

I cant find anthing on the internet to say they are dangerous at all
for dogs.

And no ! They wont learn and will have another go if you replace them.

I think you will come off worse having to clean up after them.

That brings back memories of one of my labs making off with a 20 pound
turkey 20 mins before dinner was due to be served!
He even sneaked back to try to get at the chestnut stuffing !

Best wishes
Jane

Messages in this topic (4)
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1d. Re: Christmas feast ..
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:43 am ((PST))

"URSULA" <UCL@...> wrote:
>
> My two labs helped themselves to a kilo of Medjool dates. I can't say
> they shared them but the entire contents of the bowl disappeared from
> the kitchen table.
*****
Rresults? Loose stools probably but dates are good for fiber so the
disaster may be less than you anticipate. Stick them Labadores outside
so they can contemplate their bellies and their sins in peace. Joy to
the world.

Silly Labs.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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2a. Re: Charley's Off his feed
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:40 am ((PST))

"becca1066" <becca1066@...> wrote:
> he does have a place on his tail he has been chewing-no idea what
> started it but I have been putting peroxide & gentle iodine on it-
> went through the whole lick granuloma with another dog)
*****
My guess is whatever stress started him chewing his tail is the same
stress that has him off his food. If you are stressing out right now
that's as good a reason as any for a dog to stress as well. If the
whole family is experiencing holiday frenzy, he may easily be off the
charts.

OTOH, whatever has him off his food could also be stress that has
started him chewing. What came first? Is he intact? Is there a
bitch in season in the area?

OTOH, both ingested peroxide and iodine can cause nausea, so perhaps
the treatment you are using on his tail (there are less invasive ones
for sure) is what's putting him off his food.

In lieu of taking him to the vet, I'd recommend looking for the
stressors in his life right now, using a different approach to his
tail chewing, and keeping watch for symptoms that may indicate a more
specific health issue. Does he have a temp?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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3a. Re: dehydrated raw
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:57 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "peggyparker_4" <peggyparker_4@...>
wrote:
>
> Has anyone had any experience with the food from The Honest Kitchen?
> After struggling with pure raw for a month with my 4 month 3lb. puppy,
> I became concerned that he wasn't getting enough nutrients. He doesn't
> know what to do with a bone, and the butcher could not grind one up
>for me,

Hi Peggy,
No experience here. I checked the products out on the web, and all
the ones that i was able to find have grains and veggies in them. Are
these the ones that you are feeding? If so, i think that, i'm sorry
if you did post problems about your little puppy's eating problems and
i don't recall, maybe we should try to help you straighten out the "my
puppy can't chew bone" issue and not the value of Honest Kitchen. I'm
going to guess that because carnivores, aka dogs, even small ones,
have no dietary need for grains or veggies, and because they can cause
allergies and health issues in dogs, and since dogs get the nutrients
of plants and such from eating the animal that nature intended to eat
grasses and veggies, you probably won't get many recommendations here.
What exactly went wrong when you were feeding pure raw? KathyM

Messages in this topic (5)
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3b. Re: dehydrated raw
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:40 am ((PST))

"peggyparker_4" <peggyparker_4@...> wrote:>
> Has anyone had any experience with the food from The Honest Kitchen?
*****
Have you ever heard the tale of Stone Soup? That's what Honest Kitcken
is, plain and simple.

In case you didn't realize it, YOU are adding the raw meat. HK isn't
doing a damn thing but cobbling together a redundancy of supplements
for you to add to the real food, which is--dahdah--the raw meat YOU
provide.

One month of figuring out a good raw diet is not a long time and it is
not going to undermine your pup's current health or future successes.
You have bought into the profound lie that you cannot provide adequate
nutrition on your own.

What makes a good raw diet is raw meat, raw bone, raw organs,, plus
patience, creativity and a good (free) dose of common sense. Not the
dehydrated stuff. The dehydrated stuff is what makes entrepreneurs
rich. What a crock.

A crock of stone soup.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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3c. Re: dehydrated raw
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 9:18 am ((PST))

What kind of bones were you trying to feed him? He definitely should be
able to eat bones in something like a chicken breast or game hen without any
problem and you don't need much bone in the overall diet.

There is not one ingredient in the Honest Kitchen foods that is necessary or
beneficial for your puppy. He probably likes it because it is all carbs and
nice and sweet! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "peggyparker_4" <peggyparker_4@yahoo.com>

Has anyone had any experience with the food from The Honest Kitchen?
After struggling with pure raw for a month with my 4 month 3lb. puppy,
I became concerned that he wasn't getting enough nutrients. He doesn't
know what to do with a bone, and the butcher could not grind one up for
me, so I ordered a 4lb. bag of the dehydrated, add raw meat to it and
he is loving it. It is good to see him dive into his food instead of
eyeballing it with disdain and confusion. If I could find a bone shaped
like a shoe, I bet he would know what to do with it then.
Peggy

Messages in this topic (5)
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3d. Re: dehydrated raw
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:14 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "peggyparker_4" <peggyparker_4@...>
wrote:
>
> I became concerned that he wasn't getting enough nutrients.

"Concerned he wasn't getting enough nutrients" and "KNOWING he isn't
getting enough nutrients" are two different things. In the first
place, I don't think you know what nutrients he requires. In the 2nd
place I don't think you know what nutrients are in the food you are
feeding him.

> He doesn't know what to do with a bone,

Of course he does. I have never seen a puppy that would immediately
start chewing on anything put in front of him. It's the way puppies
explore their world.

> and the butcher could not grind one up for me, ...

That the butcher wouldn't grind a bone is a good think for both you
and the puppy.

> so I ordered a 4lb. bag of the dehydrated, add raw meat to it and
> he is loving it.

Thats a bad thing. If you put a filet mignon in a pile of garbage,
the filet becomes garbage, the garbage does not become filet.

> It is good to see him dive into his food instead of
> eyeballing it with disdain and confusion.

If he hasn't been diving into his raw food before, you were doing
something wrong. I don't have a clue what it was but something.

I suggest you list exactly what you have been feeding him and how and
I'm sure you can get some help on how to proceed.

Is your puppy underweight? Is he proper size for his age? Is he
energetic? Is his coat nice looking? Can you see/feel any ribs? if
so, how many? Can you see his hip bone? Spine? Were his stools
loose before you introduced the dehydrated junk?

Dehydrated has its uses such as extended camping trips or back
packing, but not as a regular part of a diet.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (5)
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4a. Re: Need a logical response
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:24 am ((PST))

"diannem200400" <diannem200400@...> wrote:
I have an old guy with bad teeth and
> I cut up his meat for him. I missed cutting a piece of pork and he
got
> one about the size of a baseball. He swallowed it and it got stuck.
*****
First off, let me congratulate you for keeping your wits about you.
They're not dead til they're dead and until then you just do what you
did. You really are a good raw feeder, regardless of how you or your
husband feel right now...or how your husband is making you feel.
Good job.

Second, the easiest way to avoid the problem (and you are not alone I
assure you) is to feed way bigger or way smaller. In that regard
your husband has a point. I know what size not to feed my dogs (what
size is the "unhappy medium" for each dog). And if I cannot provide
appropriately larger whacks of food, I feed smaller and there really
is no compromise. For my dogs, a baseball of meat is precisely what
I do not feed. I will cut a pork baseball into a bunch of pork
pingpong balls, guaranteed. For my cats, pork pingpong balls get cut
into pork marbles. Done and done.

Experience has shown me that feeding significantly larger food wads
quickly disabuse my dogs of the notion they can somehow eat it in one
swallow. It seems that if their enthusiasm is stymied by complicated
(or simply plain old "large") food, they settle down to eating
sensibly. I suspect the effort gives them time to think.

I find that feeding meat "on the bone" reduces the chance of baseball
gluttony but if the meal gets to looking iffy I absolutely will take
the hunk from the dog, cut it up and feed it in smaller pieces.

Another option with meat in the potential danger zone is
to "butterfly" it by slicing it open like a book which makes it look
larger. You can also cut slices into the meat which effectively
turns the wad into a bunch of connected ribbons, each of which is
generally unthreatening. Changing the shape from round to anything
can revise the dog's opinion of its swallowing abilities.

For weakening seniors and any physically challenged dog I have no
qualms about making the food as easy as it needs to be. If your
senior needs help, help him. Better to cut up the iffy food than not
provide it at all.

Find the middle ground and instead of seeking it, avoid it.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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4b. Re: Need a logical response
Posted by: "Shelly" stuartjlittle@verizon.net stuartjeanlittle
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:26 am ((PST))

A similar thing happened with our BC, Trixie. I agree completely with Chris
O, that's exactly what we do since Trixie's incident. She had a baseball
(slightly larger) size chunk of beef tongue and tried to swallow it. My
husband did the same thing you did, but while he was reaching in trying to
get it out, she passed out completely and lost her bowels at the same time.
She was completely limp and he thought she was dead. He started panicking,
and picked her up and shook her. That somehow must have dislodged it and it
went on down rather than back out of her mouth. She started breathing again,
was extremely clingy and meekish for the next few days, but DID NOT learn her
lesson. We do what Chris does, but what I will also do sometimes is just
hold her meat for her to chew and when she tries to swallow I pull on it so
she has to chew more, she seems to understand. I even switch sides so both
sides of her teeth can get cleaned. We still hand the other two their big
chunks, they're good chewers and we don't worry about them (although NO ONE
eats unsupervised anymore, if he hadn't been watching, Trixie would be dead).

Shelly

On Sunday 23 December 2007 00:56, diannem200400 wrote:
He swallowed it and it got stuck. I had my hand down his throat up to my wrist
and could not get the slippery thing out. He passed out and we thought he
had died. I kept digging anyway and got it out and he finally took a breath.
Dianne M.

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

4c. Re: Need a logical response
Posted by: "diannem200400" diannem200400@yahoo.com diannem200400
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:26 am ((PST))

Thank you, Cris and Heather. All is well today. The old guy was able
to eat his pingpong! size pork last night without incident. I
generally am in the immediate vicinity of the dogs while they are
eating so will keep a closer eye out on food as it is consumed to be
sure that it doesn't get to a dangerous size or shape.

Chriso75@...> wrote:

if the meal gets to looking iffy I absolutely will take
> the hunk from the dog, cut it up and feed it in smaller pieces.
Better to cut up the iffy food than not
> provide it at all.
>
> Find the middle ground and instead of seeking it, avoid it.
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: Raw and Addison's disease
Posted by: "m_smedick" m_smedick@yahoo.com m_smedick
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:38 am ((PST))

Hi Joanne, I know this message is a bit late in coming, and I do apologize for that. I just
wanted to let you know that my Standard Poodle, Sinclair, was diagnosed with Addisons
disease in September of 2006. I switched him to raw food in June of 2007 with no trouble
at all. What you, or was it your friends dog? need to remember is that you change
NOTHING with a dog with Addisons UNLESS their electrolytes are stable. This is done by
properly medicating the dog. Properly medicating a dog with Addisons is easy after
finding how much of what works, and checking their electrolytes to make sure that the last
"stable dose" is still working. After that you can feel free to switch the diet. Doing it too
soon after diagnosis could be bad, because part of the Addison 'crash' is trouble with the
digestive track. So letting that heal first and getting the dog to LIKE eating again would be
a good thing. Probiotics at that time are a very good idea. Many vets are not VERY
educated in Addisons, nor are they in nutrition, your vet may frown on the idea, Sinclair
vet did not, but he did say that I NEED to add salt to his food since he is no longer getting
the salt that is in kibble. This is WRONG, the 'salt' replacement comes from the
medication. Small things like that you need to be very careful of, and also be VERY careful
NOT to feed a dog with Addisons any Potassium RICH foods. I hope this was helpful, at
least a little bit, and if you/your friend have any other questions about Addisons please
feel free to contact me of list, or join one of the Addisons groups if not already a member.
There are 2 that i am a member of, one of them is Addisonsdogs and the other is
K9Addisons. Best of luck, Michele

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Joanne Thompson <tho0123@...> wrote:
>
> Does anyone have experience in feeding their Addison's dog a raw diet or
> switching them over once they've been diagnosed?
>
> Joanne Thompson
> Black Diamond Kennels
> Working Giant Schnauzers
> Bellvue, CO 80512
>

Messages in this topic (8)
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________________________________________________________________________

6. frozen??
Posted by: "joan" joanlante@yahoo.ca joanlante
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 9:26 am ((PST))

Hi...I'm a little new at this and my friend picked up some boxes of
frozen butcher scraps...now one box seems to be a mix of bones...the
other sawed beef? and another sawed porc??? not sure...he saws his meet
not sorted frozen and then the scraps go outside ...I just took the axe
and broke some chunks put it in a bucket of hot water for a minute and
then dropped it on the snow...the dogs (saint-bernard...lab,newf mix)
loved it....is butcher scraps ok containing porc?

joan

Messages in this topic (1)
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7a. Whole chickens
Posted by: "Sherrel Leininger" meawolf50@yahoo.com meawolf50
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 9:26 am ((PST))

I just bought 2 whole chickens for my dobergirls. When feeding whole chickens do I cut one in half? Feed it whole, seems like a lot.

I also bought liver, pound packages. Feed alone or in small pieces with chicken quarters? Is two quarters to much for one days food. Is a 1.5 a whole days feeding or one feeding of 2 a day?

My girls weigh 60 and appx 65 pounds apiece. Pretty active.

Sherrel

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7b. Re: Whole chickens
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:25 am ((PST))

>I just bought 2 whole chickens for my dobergirls. When feeding whole
chickens do I cut one in half?

Hi. Are you just starting out for rawfeeding for your dog? If so,I recommend to cut to your dog's portion that way,you can avoid overfeeding leading to runny poo or diarrhea.

And you wrote 60-65lb is doberman's good weight and being very active you say,so,maybe 3% feeding will be your starting point.

Well,I do not have carriculator with me now but to figure out how much you feed,carriculate following.

65x16x0.03

This will give you daily total ounce you need to feed as starting point with 3% feeding guideline.

Then,you can devide that amount to 2 feeding;one for morning,other for dinner.

I was afraid of overfeeding so,I did not feed whole anything from right off the batt.And I also wanted to avoid too much new food in one sitting so,I devided to 2 feeding when beginning.
After 8 months of being rawfeeding,I throw in big hunk of meat for my dog to tackle and then,I take meal away when I think she had enough for now. I still do not feed until she stop eating. Maybe some more later.

So,back to your chicken question.YOu get the ounce number after carriculating avobe and,you cut the chicken to that portion and if you ,like me,afraid of feeding new food too much in one sitting,you just take the meal away when you think your dog had enough for one sitting and feed the rest later that day.I cut poultry to the dog portion;any poultry.Does not matter if it were Turkey or pheasant or chicken or Duck.Any poultry,I cut to dog portion and i feed to my dog.

When you just starting out,too much fat in meal,too much new thing in one sitting,too much new thing too soon leads you to runny poo or diarrhea. So,try baby step.THer is no such rule that you must feed one protin one week. So,if your dog seem to digest the chicken pretty good after 4-5 days,you can add new thing(only one new thing) to that meal and move on to the other protin OR,keep your dog on chicken still and give smidge of liver or kidney etc,and after your dog did good on organ and chicken,you can move on to..say,beef as well.What you would feed is really depend on what available and what you like to feed.No rule on what you feed next.You decide,

Feed it whole, seems like a lot.

>I also bought liver, pound packages. Feed alone or in small pieces
with chicken quarters?

Well,if you just started,don't feed organ yet.AFTER you see your dog digesting pretty good,give smidge of organ to the chicken meal and increase to organ portion,and change chicken to say Beef with chicken organ. That is how i did. Some people hold off organ feeding much later but I fed on 2nd week.It is up to you,Just don't give too much right off the bat.

You also can look past archive on how to start out the feeding a lot.

Hope I helped you a bit,

yassy

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7c. Re: Whole chickens
Posted by: "Sherrel Leininger" meawolf50@yahoo.com meawolf50
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 1:23 pm ((PST))

Thanks Yassy
I have been feeding home cooked with chicken for years. My dog Daisy is doing very well on this. But I got a second 16 month old dober girl and cooking became a little much. So I began adding more veggies and rice to the mx but then became concerned about the amount of carbs. Hence the switch to raw.

>I just bought 2 whole chickens for my dobergirls. When feeding whole
chickens do I cut one in half?
*****I guess I need to cut the chickens up. Cut the chickens up into pieces because I feed twice a day.

Hi. Are you just starting out for rawfeeding for your dog? If so,I recommend to cut to your dog's portion that way,you can avoid overfeeding leading to runny poo or diarrhea.
yes I am just starting with raw feeding. I have been adding raw to their food for 2 or 3 weeks but today is their very first all raw day. So I have been weaning off the cooked and onto the raw. But as yet their has been no stomach problems or diarrhea. SO Far!! I am still feed chicken. I buy bags of chicken quarters. This is what I have been cooking so I am just going with them for the switch over. But I found some whole chickens for .99 cents a pound this morning. So I got two and 4 lbs of frozen liver. I am thinking (already defrosted) of adding slivers to the morning feed.
And you wrote 60-65lb is doberman's good weight and being very active you say,so,maybe 3% feeding will be your starting point.

Well,I do not have carriculator with me now but to figure out how much you feed,carriculate following.

65x16x0.03

OK for Daisy, dobe, 4 years old, I got 1.8 lbs or 28.8 oz total daily food allowance. Lilly, 16 months old, dobe I got 1.95 or 31.2 oz total daily food allowance.

Like you I am unsure about feeding too much (I hate diarrhea , I really hate cleaning it up!!!) to soon. and I have fed 2 feedings all my life so going to one is unsettling for me too.

Thanks again.
Sherrel Daisy and LillyRecent Activity
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8a. Re: Looking for advice, support, guidance with Dobe
Posted by: "Sherrel Leininger" meawolf50@yahoo.com meawolf50
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:14 am ((PST))

I have a question about feeding puppies?

CG -- you feed a puppy no differently than an adult, except you feed smaller meals, and more often. I weaned my litter this year onto raw, and fed them chicken for about a week, then started introducing different proteins immediately. By six weeks, they were eating all of the split chicken breasts, including the bone. By eight weeks, they had eaten pork, beef heart, fish, venison, elk, and turkey in addition to the chicken.
Just curious!??
If you are raw feeding the mother would the puppies be eating right along with her? Did you feed them seperate from her? Would they just eat whatever she is eating? Did you just start with chicken because of their teeth coming in?
Sherrel

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9.1. Re: So I decided to switch
Posted by: "blue eyed" eyed_blue@yahoo.co.uk eyed_blue
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:14 am ((PST))

I would say its likley that the pis feet could be causing the gas..

I gave mine pork ribs yesterday and today, stools fine but more of them and we are all suffering the effects of his gas tonight!!!

Natalie

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10a. Re: Relevant to several threads -runny stools/ lack of appetite/ wei
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:25 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "sisterloui" <habershon@...>
wrote:
>
> I was taught this mimics the feeding cycle in the wild, ie
> they would often NOT catch prey and eat every day.

I imagine that there ARE days that preditors don't catch prey and
thefore don't eat that day. I don't think its a concious choice
that the preditor makes. I think it just happens because of
circumstances and if the preditor had a choice "starving days" would
never happen in the wild.

> Our habit of feeding everyday at a regular time doesnt give the
> gut time to recover.

Recover from what? Unless there is some digestive upset, there is
nothing to recover from. I agree that possibly an unhealthy animal
may choose not to eat but not on a regular basis.

I don't think that a healthy wild dog/wolf will think, "I need to
clean out my system, I don't think I'll eat today." If food is
available he will eat. Therefore mimicing something that is not
desirable for a healthy animal is not desirable.

I am a proponent of regular feeding times simply because dogs are
animals living and depending on an alien species(humans) for all the
necessities of life. If they can know what to expect and when, life
is naturally more comfortable for them.

> If my dogs do get runny stools they again were starved for
> 24 hours
> to allow "whatever" had caused it to leave the system then feeding
> would start again with a very low fat high protein and small meal.

Now you are talking about unhealthy dogs. Thats a different matter.

> I am never concerned if my dogs are off their food for a few days,
> more than a week though and i would be calling on the vet to have
> them checked over.

I am concerned if my dogs don't eat for a day because its a symptom
that something is not right. If one of my dogs doesn't eat for 2
days, I would be VERY converned, not because it will necessarily
harm them, but because it is an indicator that something is wrong.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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________________________________________________________________________

11a. Little poo question
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:25 am ((PST))

Hello all, and happy puppydays to everyone.

I have my Two great danes, and am used to feeding on a giant scale. Then we acquired my Aunt's pomchi, so I had to learn to do it on a teeny scale, and with your help I did. :)

So, we just got a little Chihuahua puppy to be a playmate for out pomchi, and he's already taken with the raw diet, we knew he would be.

Here is my problem:

His poos sometimes come out already dry and hard, which make him cry and scream very very loud, like it's really painful, and I'm sure it is. They are so dry it's like poos that have been outside for a day or two you could almost call them dusty.

I have had him for two weeks, he was on ground rabbit, whole ground rabbits, for the first week, then we went to ground chicken, whole ground chickens, only because I ran out of the rabbit. So he gets the organs and the bones with everything.

I am also still trying to figure out how much to feed him, so that he doesn't barf at night time. He is 2.4 pounds. So I am just giving him spoonfulls of meat when he seems hungry. I don't feed him after 7 pm. and that has helped with the barfing. Now I need to figure out how to adjust the food so his stools come out somewhat softer, I think that they need to be softer, since they already seem to be coming out dryer than I think they should be.

Any help would be great.

I was thinking maybe just some ground meat, or meaty chunks without bone already in it?

Poor little fellow, he's loving the food, but hating the pooping. But in his defense, he's making it to the piddle pads, good little fellow;)

Jeni

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11b. Re: Little poo question
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 12:55 pm ((PST))

Hi Jeni,

I think you're right--you need more meat. I'd try alternating what
you're feeding with some boneless bits of meat. I wonder if the
ground meat you're getting has had more bone added to it? I think
some of the ground products have quite a lot of bone since it's
cheaper than meat. Do you know how much bone it has? But even if it
is actually just a whole rabbit or chicken, ground, that just may be
too much for your guy right now (or ever).

Good luck,

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, John and Jeni Blackmon
<jonjeni777@...> wrote:

> His poos sometimes come out already dry and hard, which make him
cry and scream very very loud, like it's really painful, and I'm sure
it is. They are so dry it's like poos that have been outside for a
day or two you could almost call them dusty.

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

11c. Re: Little poo question
Posted by: "Sherrel Leininger" meawolf50@yahoo.com meawolf50
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 1:23 pm ((PST))

Jenni

Maybe he needs a little more fat in his diet. I mean if they are too dry add come grease.

Sherrel

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11d. Re: Little poo question
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 1:44 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, John and Jeni Blackmon
<jonjeni777@...> wrote:
>
> I have had him for two weeks, he was on ground rabbit,
> whole ground rabbits, for the first week, then we went to
> ground chicken, whole ground chickens, only because I ran out
> of the rabbit.

Stop feeding that ground stuff and your(his) problems will go away.
He may be small but he is still capable of chewing bones. I have
Danes also and I'm not experienced with small dogs but I would think
chicken wings, necks, drumsticks, and thighs would be good for him.
Also pork meat, beef meat, deer meat, goat meat will all be good.
He could get his bones from the chicken parts and more meat from the
other animals.

For quick results, feed him a half a meal of liver and things will
soften up immediately.

> So he gets the organs and the bones with everything.

But you have no idea how much of each he gets.

> I am also still trying to figure out how much to feed him, so
> that he doesn't barf at night time. He is 2.4 pounds. So I
> am just giving him spoonfulls of meat when he seems hungry.

I'm guessing you are feeding him a lot more than you think you are
if you feed him everytime he LOOKS hungry. He can learn to LOOK
hungry very easily. :) :) :)

Is he full grown or still a puppy?

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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________________________________________________________________________

12a. Re: Hip Dysplasia
Posted by: "Lynette Friedrichs" lraefried@sbcglobal.net cherrysmomma
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 12:55 pm ((PST))

Hi, I know this is OT but it may help others so I thought I should post for all to see.

I do not know what type of anti inflamatory your vet is giving you but
most of the meds given for arthritis/HD have bad side effects. Alot of
them can or do damage the liver and other organs. My baby, Cherry, is
going to be 4 and she was diagnosed with arthritis and HD when she was
about 2. I have done lots of research and most people say that you
need to try different glucosamine/chondriotin/MSM treatments because
some work better than others for different dogs. You give each
treatment till it is gone or at least 6-8 weeks and keep track of how
they are doing. Then try another one if the one you are using is not
working that well.

And a great natural pain killer/anti inflamatory pill is DGP. It works fairly well for Cherry. You can read about it at this link
http://www.doggonepain.com/

and if you do a search for it you can find it for cheaper price. I get mine from here. http://betterhealthinternational.com/productDetails.asp_Q_prodID_E_3326

Good luck,
Lynette

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12412

There are 22 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Sardines
From: Sai Simonson
1b. Re: Sardines
From: Yasuko herron

2.1. Re: Introducing the raw food diet! HELP!!!
From: windmilldairy
2.2. Re: Introducing the raw food diet! HELP!!!
From: carnesbill

3a. turkey necks/ground beef/ribs
From: Laurie Swanson
3b. Re: turkey necks/ground beef/ribs
From: Yasuko herron

4a. Re: HUNGRY DOG
From: Laurie Swanson
4b. Re: HUNGRY DOG
From: katkellm
4c. Re: HUNGRY DOG
From: Yasuko herron

5. Charley's Off his feed
From: becca1066

6a. Re: Have dog and raise rabbits = happy dog?
From: homesforallpets

7.1. Re: So I decided to switch
From: cutensexyb89
7.2. Re: So I decided to switch
From: Yasuko herron

8a. Feeding meat from ill animals
From: Maria
8b. Re: Feeding meat from ill animals
From: windmilldairy

9a. Re: To worry or not to worry?
From: Yasuko herron
9b. Re: To worry or not to worry?
From: carnesbill

10a. Need a logical response
From: diannem200400
10b. Re: Need a logical response
From: Heather

11.1. Re: Over ambitious was Newbie Intro
From: Giselle

12. Relevant to several threads -runny stools/ lack of appetite/ weight
From: sisterloui

13. dehydrated raw
From: peggyparker_4

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Sardines
Posted by: "Sai Simonson" saiczarina@comcast.net keikokat
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 5:26 pm ((PST))

Oh well, I asked Google and being behind in the digests this may already
have been mentioned.

Sardines or pilchards are a group of several types of small oily fish
related to herrings, family Clupeidae. Sardines were named after the
island of Sardinia, where they were once in abundance. [1]

The terms are not precise, and the usual meanings vary by region; for
instance, to many people a "sardine" is a young European pilchard. A
generalisation is that if the fish is under 4 inches long (10 cm) it is
classed as a sardine, and if larger than 4 inches it is classed as a
pilchard. The FAO/WHO Codex standard for canned sardines cites 21
species that may be classed as sardines;[2] FishBase, a comprehensive
database of information about fish, lists at least six species called
just "pilchard," over a dozen called just "sardine," and many more with
the two basic names qualified by various adjectives.

Canned "sardines" in supermarkets may actually be sprats (such as the
"brisling sardine") or round herrings. The actual sizes of the fish
canned varies by species. Good quality sardines should have the head and
gills removed before packing.[2] They may be also eviscerated before
packing (typically the larger varieties), or not; if not eviscerated
they should be free of undigested or partially digested food or feces[2]
(accomplished by holding the live fish in a tank for long enough that
their digestive systems empty themselves). They may be packed in oil or
some sort of sauce.

Wikipedia

Sai

Messages in this topic (23)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Sardines
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:30 pm ((PST))

>They may be packed in oil or some sort of sauce.

Packed in water is the one you want to pick and feed.No sauce,no oil in can.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (23)
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2.1. Re: Introducing the raw food diet! HELP!!!
Posted by: "windmilldairy" drwindmill@gmail.com windmilldairy
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 5:26 pm ((PST))

Jerri-

I would allow her to miss a couple of meals, then she will probably gladly eat whatever you
give to her.

Pat

Messages in this topic (32)
________________________________________________________________________

2.2. Re: Introducing the raw food diet! HELP!!!
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:45 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Jerri Buiting <jerribuiting@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi~
>
> I decided to start Mocha on the raw food diet and went out
> and bought a
> couple of chickens and an extra package of liver/gizzards
> since most everyone suggested I start out with chicken.

Great, welcome to the world of raw feeding. Put the liver/gizzards
in the freezer for a couple of months. You don't need to feed
organs early in the new diet. They are very rich and can cause
digestive upset.

> She won't touch it. She took it out of my hand and
> promptly dropped it on the floor and walked away.

Thats not an unusual first reaction. She probably hasn't figured
out that it's ok to eat this stuff.

> I tried feeding it to her by hand for a few minutes and she
> just got frustrated (so did I)!

Yeah, that often happens in the beginning. She is very confused and
doesn't know what she is supposed to do. It may take her a day or
two.

> I've looked at a few more entries and sites. Some say to
> start introducing the raw diet with cooked meat and cooking
> it less and less every day.

I don't advise that. In my mind, its just not a good idea.

> I'm worried about the bones then -- do I grind them up and
> cook them with the meat since cooked chicken bones are what is bad?

Thats the reason I don't advise to food with any type of cooking.

> Most of what I read indicates that dogs LOVE the raw
> food--of course, why could I have it easy? Any ideas out there?

Yes, fast her for a day. Then offer the chicken again. You might
pull off a piece or two and lay next to the main portion. Then
wait. If she doesn't go for it in 10 or 15 minutes, take it up and
put it back in the fridge. Bring it out next meal and begin all
over again. She will pretty quickly figure it out.

In a few days you are going to be writing in asking how to slow down
her eating. :) :) :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (32)
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3a. turkey necks/ground beef/ribs
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 5:47 pm ((PST))

Hi Kathy,

I'd save the turkey necks for later when you see how your dog eats.
They can be choking hazards. Also search the archives for more info
and opinions.

The ground stuff is ok, but not ideal for it to be a big part of the
diet. It doesn't offer any engagement/ripping/tearing, or dental
cleaning, etc. Good way to get some cheap beef, though.

I occasionally feed beef ribs to my Boston Terrier. The bones are too
hard for him so I remove them when he's cleaned them off (he doesn't
make much progress, so I know he's having trouble crunching them, and
he's got 2 chipped teeth from before I knew better on that...).
They're a good workout and good for cleaning teeth, but may not be that
great of a deal, considering what your dog actually gets out of them.

Bill always says that he has good luck special ordering from a smaller,
independent grocer, and that makes sense. See if you have a small
market where they are more interested in ordering you cases of stuff--
anything economical, including maybe beef heart.

Laurie

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "homesforallpets"
<homesforallpets@...> wrote:
> Also we happened to go by Walmart (only grocery shop in town that is
> reasonable) and a lot of stuff is marked down due to shelf life.
> Like Turkey necks, chicken liver, ground chuck,
> ground "hamburger". . .Are bone in Beef back ribs ok to offer?
>

Messages in this topic (16)
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3b. Re: turkey necks/ground beef/ribs
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:30 pm ((PST))

>They can be choking hazards.

Hi.If you learn dog's eating habits,that can be fed.My dog is chewer so,I give her Turkey Neck with added meat.She loves it and she crunch down very good. I have no problem feeding it to her.

I think Ground beef is all right but,I think it makes my dog runny poo probably fattier than meat she can handle well,so,I do not feed it other than the reason ground anything does not require dog to rip,chew etc.

Beef ribs,Buffalo ribs,etc I feed to my dog and she ets bone all most of the time.No problems for teeth wise too.Only bone cannot eat by her is oxtail bone.She does not make any dent so,I take it away.

Ribs are sort of fatty so,I do not offer all of the time.When I offer,I offer with added meat.

yassy

yass

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4a. Re: HUNGRY DOG
Posted by: "Laurie Swanson" laurie@mckinneyphoto.com las_lala
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 5:47 pm ((PST))

Hi Pam,

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "pamela993748" <pamduthie@...>
wrote:
> So I have tried increasing his food but any time I give him extra
he
> is sick in the night or has runny poo
> - if I give him the 2% (ish) he has had no problem with any food I
> have given him but upping the food does not seem to work for him

***Have you tried feeding 2 meals a day? You could do that for a bit
until things have improved, and then start gradually increasing meal
size again until you've dropped the 2nd meal.

is there foods that are
> higher fat that I should be feeding him

***Unless you really want to, and his diet is extremely lean (all
skin and fat removed, and very lean cuts), I personally wouldn't
increase fat much at this point with the already present runny poo
issues. That might make things worse in that dept.

> Sorry if I am hijacking the question - I thought it was relivent to
> the origonal (and I am new so scared to start my own question :o) )

***What is there to be afraid of? But it's not hijacking--that's how
it works, it's just a discussion and we can all participate! :-)

Laurie

Messages in this topic (14)
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4b. Re: HUNGRY DOG
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 6:02 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "pamela993748" <pamduthie@...> wrote:
> I have a 9 month old pup who has been on raw for about 1 month
> He did not eat well on kibble - about 25% of what he should have (on
> a good day)

Hi Pam,
I had a dog who was like yours before raw. He was so skinny at around
a year that friends would come around and say stuff like geez do
something about him. He ate just enough kibble to keep him going.
Now don't get me wrong, he wasn't sickly or anything, just super
skinny because he hated to eat. When i switched to raw he began to
eat with gusto, but he still wouldn't eat more than 2% of his then
current weight, and according to what he weighs now, and he looks
good, he was about 15lbs under weight. If i fed him more than a
pound, he now eats 2, he either refused the extra or returned it to me
and wouldn't re eat it. I ended up giving him a tad bit more food
every week. Gradually, week by week, he ate a little more food.
After about 4 months of raw food, i started to offer him big meals,
like a whole chicken or turkey or roast, and let him eat til he quit
eating. He was able to keep what ever he ate down, and has been a
super eater ever since. I guess the moral of my story is add a
smidgen more food each week and in about 3 more months you should see
a huge turn around in him. HTH, KathyM

Messages in this topic (14)
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4c. Re: HUNGRY DOG
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 6:44 pm ((PST))

>> So I have tried increasing his food but any time I give him extra
he is sick in the night or has runny poo

Hi. If feeding more cause the runny problems, you can feed smaller meal each time you feed frequently.

For example,my dog 34lb gets roughly around 10-13oz perday but if she had problems you are facing to,what I would do is that feed frequently and if i were feeding only once a day,then,I feed 2-3 meals a day and then, each meal will be like 4oz,3oz, 3oz;total amount devide through the day.

Then,if that did not fix the problems, I try removing skin of poultry or cut off visible fat in meal.

Usually those two method works for my dog.

Or,feed combo meal. Like Tongues are usually fattier than normal meat and run around 60-70% fat in it. Lamb tongue is 70% fat.My dog seem to have fat problem;too much fat in meal cause runny poo.So,when I fed Tongue,I usually maje combo meal with other meat like Boneless beef with Beef Tongue or Lamb tongue with Boneless tongue etc. THat solved problem too.

I think Mutton is very fatty meat but lamb as well.Ribs are usually around60% fat.Lean is Turkey but Cornish Hen is 60% fat too.

Some dogs are ok with lots of fat in meal but somedog may need tweak in meal.

If you like to see how much fat in meat,look up the site at www.nutritiondata.com

It tells you how much carb,how much protin,how much fat in piece of meat.

I found chicken feet is also 60% fat.My dog do well on it but I do not feed it often and I make it as very valuable thing for her and use to trade with big big meat to give up for next time also feed along with fish. Cheap chicken feet does traing very good and no snapping or no growlin to take out her meal when I feed big one.

Or..runny poop maybe you just need more bone to meal,You just experiment and see what works for your dog,

I recommend to keep Journal.It really helps for Detective work like that.

yassy

---------------------------------
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5. Charley's Off his feed
Posted by: "becca1066" becca1066@yahoo.com becca1066
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 5:47 pm ((PST))

OK, I'm not panicking yet-but except for some rabbit pinkies day
before yesterday he's not eating. Wed. I gave him a rabbit-never
touced it. yesterday it was pork neck bones-usually a favorit-
they're still out there today

This is not normal for him (115 lb GSD, raw fed most of his life)
He is active, playing, acting normal, but not tearing into his food
is not him

he has been eating the pinkies (I raise rabbits and had some losses)
but nothing else that I can tell (he will occassioanly catch and eat
a squirrel)

he does have a place on his tail he has been chewing-no idea what
started it but I have been putting peroxide & gentle iodine on it-
went through the whole lick granuloma with another dog)

I've got a few goodies left to try but I am little concerned

any ideas?

becca

Messages in this topic (1)
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6a. Re: Have dog and raise rabbits = happy dog?
Posted by: "homesforallpets" homesforallpets@yahoo.com homesforallpets
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:30 pm ((PST))

> >
> Sometimes you really do get what you pay for. Read the ingredients
> on that cheap kibble. Seven bucks a month is probably too much for
> what's in it!

Yes, I know that is why I am looking to switch her.

> I don't know where you live in Missouri, but I those prices are
> SCARY! I live in NW Missouri, and I got chicken leg quarters
> recently for 39 cents/lb., and can get them any time for about 50
> cents.

I'm in Clinton. Yes sometimes very scary. Its getting hard to shop
the grocer and feed my family. Going to try to find a yocal to get
meat for us and the animals from.

I went to the store and well if I look REALLY hard I can find stuff
not too bad. I'm going to put a sign in my local feed shop offering
to pay for stuff from people who process their own or pay to have it
done, I bet they can get the odds n ends from the processor for not
too much or free and do a slight mark up to get it to me.

> Quarters with the bone or whole chickens will be much cheaper than
> that bag of breasts. Leg QUARTERS (not drumsticks or thighs) seem
to
> be cheapest of all. Look for pork shoulder. I have gotten it for
as
> little as 89 cents/lb.

Good idea! We are getting everything we need day after Christmas
(everything gets marked down seems like) we do not eat much (if any)
pork but doesn't mean Angel can't.

Many grocers discount meat that
> is approaching its human-consumption expiration date. Look late at
> night or first thing in the morning to pick off these bargains. I
> have gotten perfectly good meat for myself this way, provided I was
> going to cook or freeze it that day.

So have I, actually saw a lot of stuff marked down like that today,
hope some is still there Monday. Like Turkey necks, they had lots of
turkeynecks marked $1.50 or about that in a pack of looked like 3 or
4.

> You mentioned a cat, too, I believe. Is it also raw-fed? If so,
> rats (not babies, but not huge, either) would be ideal whole prey.
> If you are not raw-feeding your cat and want to start, be aware
that
> the transition can be slower than with dogs, and cats should never
be
> deprived of what they WILL eat to hurry the process.

I have 2, they don't eat raw. Been trying since they were kittens
(they are four), however we started having troubles with mice and
they are eating them so I think Rats will be a good start!

Thanks!

Kathy in MO
Angel - Black Lab
Oreo & Turkey - cats

Messages in this topic (16)
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7.1. Re: So I decided to switch
Posted by: "cutensexyb89" cutensexyb89@yahoo.com cutensexyb89
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:30 pm ((PST))

No
I don't know the different types, I just thought it would be a good
idea to know when it stops being just an upset stomach, or too fatty
of a food, to something that needs medical attention and how to tell
the difference.

My one dog Kahlie had a hernia and had surgery about 1 month ago,
could the tear and stitches in her stomach make a difference on if the
bone can pass through?
Madie
>
> *** Parasites in commercial meats are extremely uncommon. The symptoms
> would depend on the parasite in question. Is there a particular one
> about which you are worried?
>
> --Carrie
>

Messages in this topic (32)
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7.2. Re: So I decided to switch
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 8:16 pm ((PST))

>I am going to alternate between chicken parts, and hopefully find some
whole chickens to cut up, do the small game hens count as chicken?


Hi. Cornish Game hens are Baby chicken basically and, one bird usually weigh around 2lb and I bought Tyson brand Cornish hen that comes with 2 birds in one package and I used coupon so,it was little good buy.Bone-wise,since baby chicken,much softer bone than regular chicken,I think. Fat% wise,look at www.nutritiondata.com,search Chicken,Cornish game hen and you see the fat%.

Also,recently I got Fowl(in Nov I think),and it was I thought Gunia Fowl but when asked to consumar affair section at grocery store,they told me on the phone that it is a Stewing chicken or overgrown chicken.So,it looks,to me,a little harder in bone but not as hard as Turkey bone and meat looks chew when I observe palette eating it. She likes both though.

>would that upset them?

If you did not overfeeding them,probably won't. But if it did,you can try feeding without skin or less skin on it.THat solve some fat% problem in one sitting.

>I am going on a road trip with the girls in a week and think it would be easier to buy a small hen or 1/2 a chicken for them instead of having to get individual pieces.

I did try road trip to IN this year for the first time with rawfeeding my dog. What I did was.. plan the meal for 1 week ahead of time and bag the one day worth items in zip bag(freezer bag ) with date on it so that you know what day you feed it. If the date was no matter,you just devide items in zip bag and no date on it will be fine.

I kept Gelpak that comes when receiving meat from suppliers and I used about 5-6 paks this time. I used cooler and place some Gel pak on bottom,put items I like to feed while i am away from home in there and top off with another Gelpak.Only road trip day's meat is thawed and others are frozen like a rock.

We did 11hour trip yesterday from VA to IN.I was curious,how the meat was. The meat was still frozen and Gelpak was little softer parts on surface but bottom one was pretty hard still and,I was amazed how well it worked. I put thawed chicken in the cooler too inside the small bowl (but chicken itself in zip bag),it stayed cool too.

I did not have to worry about medalion thing you talking about;pre-made.

Canned fish is good too to add in your feeding list because you do not have to worry about keeping it cool all the time,just drain and feed(get one packed in water though).

My dog still gets liver too.I pre-packed bits of liver after thawing the liver and cut to amount you want and add to frozen meat and froze it together. THat way,you just dump whenever you want to feed it. So,she still gets tripe too.

And on trip day,I fed her 1 hours before leaving house to make sure car ride would not give her tum prob.and fed dinner after arriving the destination. My dog never vomit bile now no matter what time I feed.Sometimes,we get late from grocery shopping and have late dinner and she is fed after we be fed but she is fine.She can handle that.She became more flexible on feeding schedule after switch.

>They have had some gas and seem a bit tired, probably from the pigs foot I gave them last night,

Did you give it as rec bone?? It is bone,skin,cartilidge etc but not enough meat on it to make it as meal. If you want it to be meal,add boneless meat to it and you are not going to get little nudget poo with frequent poopy time.


>(is their a difference)

I think,Lrg quarter is total of thigh portion and Drumsticks. 2 things makes it to Leg quarter.
Am I wrong??

> would it do damage to give themsome Primal (pre-made raw) once a week?

Well,bad thing about pre-made is some may have veg or vitamins in it(I am not sure for sure because I never bought it but i am guessing) and you have no control of waht goes into dog tum. And,not require chewing ripping action like meat itself does.

If you cannot bring coolers, you can buy little package of meat on the road trip and feed it.

>Also what does trim your message mean?

Deleting unnecessary lines you don't need to answer to.

yassy

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8a. Feeding meat from ill animals
Posted by: "Maria" plava_93@yahoo.com plava_93
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:30 pm ((PST))

I posted a while back about goats with copper deficincy. I got three of
them and the owner sent the livers off to be tested. They had CAE
(Caprine arthritis Encephalitis)
http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts_waddl/caefaq.aspx

Would feeding these goats harm mine and my cousins dogs? Since the
virus often passed from doe to kid the woman is probably going to have
this happen to all of her goats. She already has two more that I will
be getting next month, their joints get really bad at about 3-5 years
of age and most of her goats are around that age.

Thank you.
Maria

Messages in this topic (3)
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8b. Re: Feeding meat from ill animals
Posted by: "windmilldairy" drwindmill@gmail.com windmilldairy
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:45 pm ((PST))

I wouldn't worry about feeding the meat, that arthritis cannot be passed to dogs.

Pat

Messages in this topic (3)
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9a. Re: To worry or not to worry?
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:31 pm ((PST))

>It's almost sad to not be able to feed him as much as he wants because he tends
towards plump, anyway, and his bum rear leg restricts his exercise, so
definitely a potential to chunkiness. He should weigh about 20-22#,
so he gets about 8oz/day.

My dog is on plan to loose some weight too.I tried just reducing the amount you feed, but it did not work with increased excercise activity.

My dog is Corgi so,she has loong back with short stabby legs so,keeping the lean weight is a must for her.Not good for her long back.

Heaviest she was 36lb. She is taller than normal Corgi which is 12inch in average I read but she is 14" tall,so,I think that 30lb or so is probably better weight for her considering her being tall,so,I am working on it.

If you reduce the food,yes, you feed less calorie but,large number of calories are coming from Fat.Maybe that is why my dog could not loose on that method to loose weight.

I reduced calorie but did not reduce amount too drastically.I am giving her moderate fat% around 38-40% in average in a week. I tweak menu by calorie total and average fat% in meal and it is working.She is now 34lb.It is not big change but I do not want to loose her weight too drastically and as long as she is not going to gain again,I like slow steady approach.
For owners,it is little bit of work to do,but I do not mind working on it if it helps my dog so,I started doing this and it is rough numbers you get on web but you still can get rough ideas how much of what calories you are feeding and fat% so,it helps.

you can see fat% or calorie at www.nutritiondata.com and if you really like what i am doing you can register at the site for free to make your own pantry and you can click item and add to pantry and you put amount you want to feed and it gives you total cal and total fat% and other nutrition numbers if you wish to look at like if you were interested in taurin amount you can see that too... Just a rough idea.Not exact.

One thing I really l ike thesdays are Frog leg. It took a little time for my dog to eat all raw (one day) but,it is very lean and soft bone and looks quite good protin source.So,I used to feed chicken feet 2 times a week along with fish but I switched to one time with Frog leg and one time with chicken feet. That worked good. And I feed Rib occasionary but not as often as it was and tongue meals are now always combined with other boneless meat to make fat% lower than tongue itself.I do not go for extreme low fat though because dog needs fat.

>They get some beef, pork, and some turkey, but generally boneless,

Well,bones are..for beef,some may not feel comfortable but I am comfortable feeding Neck,Rib,tail.Oxtail seem to be unedible bone to my dog so,I just take it away but ribs and Neck,she eats all but I do not say those are softer bone.Hardest bone among 3 protin sources you put here.

Pork ribs are quite soft bone and,Neck bone is soft too.Not too soft but softer side bone.

Turkey bone is sound hard bone when you hear the cruncxh sound but it is not as hard as beef at all and no problems.In fact,my dog had Turkey today.She really likes Turkey too.

You know,even among boneless,you can give variety among 4legged animals,

there are heart(usually not too expensive),Tongue,and big hunk of roast(cost effective i think).

As for poultry,buying the whole birds are much much cheaper than trying to buy all kinds of parts and usually boneless is expensive too(I bought Boneless chicken breast because I need it to make for pizza tomorrow for family and it was 5 dollars with 3 breast!!) . Maybe if you buy Whole Turkey and cut up,it is more economical.Plus you get giblet bag too if you buy a whole birds and 1 neck of course and,you get little variety with just buying whole birds.

10lb of Turkey would last quite long.

> I never get them pork necks, either, because here, they are sold in small bony chunks,

Ask the meat guy if they got unsliced bone back the counter.I got whole oxtail that way.You usually would see 1 inch chunk of bone for soup but nope,I got 4-5lb oxtail at local grocery store because I asked for it.So,ask the guy and you may find a treasure!!

yassy who is away from home in VA and now in Indiana state after 11hr car drive..

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9b. Re: To worry or not to worry?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:31 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "tobrlaka" <tobrlaka@...> wrote:
>
> They get some beef, pork, and some turkey, but generally boneless,
> (and not very often, due to expense)because she always regurges the
> tip of the beef rib (and it sounds like she's bringing up a
> house when she does), and I'm afraid pork and turkey bones
> would be even more troublesome.

Hey Brenda, Actually the pork and turkey bones are nowhere near as
troublesom as beef bones. I don't feed my dogs beef bones at all
but they handle pork and turkey bones easily. Try a rack of pork
ribs or any turkey part. I'm sure they will do fine.

> I'd like to take advantage of the anticipated post-holiday sales of
> pork and turkeys....but aren't turkey bones just too splintery
> for 20# dogs?

No, they should be able to handle them ok. I don't think turkey
bones are any more "splintery" than chicken bones.

> I'd like them to get more variety....but I'm shy of the bony parts,
> aside from chicken........

Try'em, you'll like'em. :) :) :) Then non-boney parts of the pig
are great too.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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10a. Need a logical response
Posted by: "diannem200400" diannem200400@yahoo.com diannem200400
Date: Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:07 pm ((PST))

We had a near tragedy yesterday. I have an old guy with bad teeth and
I cut up his meat for him. I missed cutting a piece of pork and he got
one about the size of a baseball. He swallowed it and it got stuck. I
had my hand down his throat up to my wrist and could not get the
slippery thing out. He passed out and we thought he had died. I kept
digging anyway and got it out and he finally took a breath. He is okay
today. My husband, however, is not. Now he thinks I should cut up all
the dogs' (I have 5) meat into bite sized pieces. I try to feed the
others pieces of at least 2 lbs. or so and I tried to explain (badly)
that the dogs rend and tear as they eat the meat. He says that will
only get the meat down to a size that they can swallow and inevitably
they will get a piece that causes choking. I don't know how to
describe the process logically enough to convince him that I am not
going to kill the dogs one at a time. Help! (and thank you!)

Dianne M.

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10b. Re: Need a logical response
Posted by: "Heather" newbeginnings06@gmail.com malignstar
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 12:37 am ((PST))

Your dog was not used to really chewing up his meals, so as a habit he
swallowed or lightly chewed what you gave him. It was a freak
accident. Your other dogs that ARE used to chewing shouldn't have a
problem because they are used to using their jaws. Sometimes my cat
will not chew properly and up it comes. It was probably at a part in
his throat that he couldn't regurgitate it. Hope your boy isn't too
traumatized by it all.. though I imagine it was scarier for you!

Heather

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11.1. Re: Over ambitious was Newbie Intro
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 12:20 am ((PST))

Hi, Jo!
Not sure if you've posted how much your Aussie weighs.

And, not sure how much 200 g is, uh, a bit over 7 oz?

Not much, it seems - if your dog is about 45 lbs - 3% of 45 lbs = 1 lb
5.6oz for a meal?

If so, then 3 sardines would be about 1/3 of a meal for her.

I'd feed one (or 1/2 of one) next time, with a scaled down version of her
regular meal, and build the amount of sardines you feed her from there.

Once she is used to it, she should be able to eat an entire meal of fish. My
girl can eat a whole mackerel or 2 lbs of sardines at one whack. I usually
serve them right out of the freezer. Gives her a bit of resistance to crunch
them up frozen in a clump.

On Dec 22, 2007 2:26 PM, Jo <mistielass@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> Hi Giselle
>
>
> > BTW, did you give her the chance to re eat it?
>
> Yes she did re eat it. It cost too much to throw away. LOL
>
> > Just remember, less is more, gradual is better than all at once.
>
> Yes I did get a bit over excited with it all. I will know in future. If
> she had been used to it was it the right quantity, or was it still too
> much for an experienced dog?
>
> Regards
> Jo
>
>
>

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12. Relevant to several threads -runny stools/ lack of appetite/ weight
Posted by: "sisterloui" habershon@aol.com sisterloui
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 12:38 am ((PST))

Hi there,

I didnt want to derail any of the above questions but i find my
comments all seem interlinked in a way.

I only have domestic pets but my family does have members who are
game keepers or who own hunting dogs. They frequently have "starving
days" very often once a week. I was taught this mimics the feeding
cycle in the wild, ie they would often NOT catch prey and eat every
day.Our habit of feeding everyday at a regular time doesnt give the
gut time to recover. Please note this is just a family thing, i have
nothing to back this up but it seems reasonable.

If my dogs do get runny stools they again were starved for 24 hours
to allow "whatever" had caused it to leave the system then feeding
would start again with a very low fat high protein and small meal.

Some of you may remember me asking advice about whether to put
a "visiting" spaniel onto raw meat from kibble for the short period i
had her? She was a terribly slow and picky eater on kibble. She didnt
seem to recognise "raw" as food, but by observing my Labrador wolfing
dinner down (excuse the pun) she soon took to the meat and thoroughly
enjoyed it.

My plan "B" was, if after a week she still wasnt eating was to lace
the raw meat with a little gravy to help her identify it as food.
My plan "C" was to add raw and reduce kibble over a period of 2
weeks. Not ideal I agree but I was prepared to do anything to get her
off the kibble.

She didnt seem to want meaty bones either, but after watching my Lab
eating, she soon pinched the bone off him and tucked in herself.

I am never concerned if my dogs are off their food for a few days,
more than a week though and i would be calling on the vet to have
them checked over.

I dont have experience of underweight dogs but i do have one thought
on the over weight ones. My lab was over weight and after about 18
months on feeding raw has only lost a few pounds in weight. BUT he
has lost an awful lot of fat and toned up and gained muscle.

I described it to friends and family as the atkins diet for dogs. In
humans unused carbs are converted to fat, protein isnt. I wondered if
a similar thing happens with dogs ? I have no way of weighing my lab
on a regular basis so I did take his waist measurement and this has
gone down by several inches.

I would appreciate your thoughts on this matter.

Many thanks, and sending you all best wishes for a wonderful
Christmas.
Jane,
(sisterloui)

Messages in this topic (1)
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13. dehydrated raw
Posted by: "peggyparker_4" peggyparker_4@yahoo.com peggyparker_4
Date: Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:49 am ((PST))

Has anyone had any experience with the food from The Honest Kitchen?
After struggling with pure raw for a month with my 4 month 3lb. puppy,
I became concerned that he wasn't getting enough nutrients. He doesn't
know what to do with a bone, and the butcher could not grind one up for
me, so I ordered a 4lb. bag of the dehydrated, add raw meat to it and
he is loving it. It is good to see him dive into his food instead of
eyeballing it with disdain and confusion. If I could find a bone shaped
like a shoe, I bet he would know what to do with it then.
Peggy

Messages in this topic (1)
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