Feed Pets Raw Food: Jan 7, 2008

Monday, January 7, 2008

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12471

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Local meat supplier won't sell me meat
From: Michael Moore
1b. Re: Local meat supplier won't sell me meat
From: Denise Farley

2a. Re: local meat supplier won't sell me meat
From: john payne
2b. Re: local meat supplier won't sell me meat
From: Tina Berry
2c. Re: local meat supplier won't sell me meat
From: Dave Teetz
2d. Re: local meat supplier won't sell me meat
From: carnesbill
2e. local meat supplier won't sell me meat
From: Erika
2f. Re: local meat supplier won't sell me meat
From: Morledzep@aol.com

3a. Re: BRAND NEW TO RAW DIET
From: mozookpr

4a. Re: beef, pork and lamb...
From: Elizabeth

5a. Re: Portion size for Mastiffs
From: deb_earl_veil
5b. Re: Portion size for Mastiffs
From: Tina Berry

6a. Not OT, I hope, just had to share!
From: mozookpr
6b. Re: Not OT, I hope, just had to share!
From: Chia
6c. Re: Not OT, I hope, just had to share!
From: mozookpr

7a. Re: Varying views
From: muirghealfinne

8a. Re: Chihuahua with missing teeth- feeding recommendations? update &
From: Robert Ekendahl
8b. Re: Chihuahua with missing teeth- feeding recommendations? update &
From: Chia

9a. Thrist
From: Gaye Amick
9b. Re: Thrist
From: godkrittersnkids

10a. Re: Future newbee in training
From: Denise Strother
10b. Re: Future newbee in training
From: Giselle

11a. Meat Grazing
From: Lynette
11b. Re: Meat Grazing
From: Tina Berry

12. Re: Thirst
From: Morledzep@aol.com

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Local meat supplier won't sell me meat
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 11:03 am ((PST))

>>I just called our local meat processor and they said they don't have "cheap cuts of meat" to sell me. They say they sell dogs bones for $3 each. I asked why they couldn't sell me any leftover parts and they said it was against government regulations to sell "inedible cuts of meat." HELP, do I have to buy all my meat from the local groceries? Did I ask the wrong thing when I asked for "leftover cuts of cheap meat for my dog" ? What specifically should I ask for when I approach the butcher at the grocery? <<

Jennifer -- I also live in Ohio, and have a couple of suggestions for you. First, go to a potential source in person rather than calling; it's more personable and you'll have more success. I started out just asking for specific things (ie beef heart), and bought for a long time before admitting that the food is for my dogs. However, I always say that I "make my own dog food" as per a suggestion long ago on this list.
I do buy food at grocery stores; I watch sale flyers like a hawk, and often find pork shoulder roasts for $1/lb, for example, and whole chicken for .79-.82/lb. But a relationship with a butcher or processor (I ocassionally take cookies to mine, BTW, and they think I'm wonderful) is invaluable. It, like Rome, isn't built in a day, however.
There is also a raw co-op in the Columbus area, so if that would work for you (and folks drive from all over the state for orders, BTW), let me know and I'll send you the link.

-- Anne and the PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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1b. Re: Local meat supplier won't sell me meat
Posted by: "Denise Farley" desheep59@northmo.net desheep59
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 12:15 pm ((PST))

I live in Missouri. We have USDA butchering/meat facilities and then the
state-licensed butchers. You will not get anything from a USDA facility is
my understanding of 'the rules'. I could not get back anything not
generally saleable when I take my own livestock into a USDA facility.

The state-licensed ones are much more flexible. If I want EVERYTHING, then
I can drop off my stock and come back after they've been killed and readied
for hanging and collect the hide, head, legs, guts, etc. He cannot by law
keep any of that for me, but I can come back before his 'haul off' (which is
scheduled for the morning after 'kill day') and take anything from anything
he has out there that I want. I can come on days he kills – even if I don't
have livestock there – and he lets me raid his barrels. I can pick out
scraps from his waste barrels from the butchering room that contain a bit of
meat with the fat he cuts off prior to the final process or bones or
whatever else is cut out of the final product is wrapped and frozen.

I agree – make a 'personal visit'. You can always call to find out if
they're USDA or not before hand – I wouldn't waste my time on a USDA
facility.

P.S. No dissing intended here, but I had a person turn down meat for their
dog because I did not take it to a USDA facility. That perturbed me to no
end. But to each their own. If the state licenses and certifies the
facility, and I have seen it as well, then that's good enough for me. What
about all those hunters out there who dress out and tend to their own kills.
I always wondered if that person would have a hissy fit if they found out
they had eaten a meal where the entrée was home-butchered deer or perhaps
deer jerky. And I smile at the thought.

People are the world's problem.

Denise

_____

>>I just called our local meat processor and they said they don't have
"cheap cuts of meat" to sell me. They say they sell dogs bones for $3 each.
I asked why they couldn't sell me any leftover parts and they said it was
against government regulations to sell "inedible cuts of meat." HELP, do I
have to buy all my meat from the local groceries? Did I ask the wrong thing
when I asked for "leftover cuts of cheap meat for my dog" ? What
specifically should I ask for when I approach the butcher at the grocery? <<

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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2a. Re: local meat supplier won't sell me meat
Posted by: "john payne" brendajohn2823@yahoo.com brendajohn2823
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 11:04 am ((PST))

Im in Ohio and when i go into meat markets, i just ask if them have any scraps for sale. some has sold me stuff . One after me getting the stuff from them, started grinding everything up into what he is now selling as" dog food" for $1 per pound. I dont get it, cuz its ground up, but i have 3 neighbors that are now buying it for their little, and older dogs.
Where in ohio are you
Brenda

jfashian <jfashian@columbus.rr.com> wrote:
I just joined this group after reading online one night about the
benefits of raw feeding. I'm ready to switch our almost 13 year old
lab/boxer mix over to raw. I just called our local meat processor and
they said they don't have "cheap cuts of meat" to sell me. They say
they sell dogs bones for $3 each. I asked why they couldn't sell me any
leftover parts and they said it was against government regulations to
sell "inedible cuts of meat." HELP, do I have to buy all my meat from
the local groceries? Did I ask the wrong thing when I asked
for "leftover cuts of cheap meat for my dog" ? What specifically
should I ask for when I approach the butcher at the grocery?

Anyone live in Ohio?

Jennifer

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: local meat supplier won't sell me meat
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 11:04 am ((PST))

"Did I ask the wrong thing when I asked for "leftover cuts of cheap meat for
my dog" ? What specifically
should I ask for when I approach the butcher at the grocery? "

Don't feel bad, I called every meat processor in my area when we first moved
here, and only ONE agreed to give me all his scraps during hunting season -
they have to pay to throw it away. So keep calling. Find some backwoods
butcher and tell them you will sign an agreement that it is for non-human
consumption or even specifically for your dogs. When we lived in WA, all I
could get was meat on sale at whatever grocery store had it the cheapest and
then bought a couple of used freezers to keep stocked up.

Good luck!
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
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2c. Re: local meat supplier won't sell me meat
Posted by: "Dave Teetz" dteetz@gmail.com dteetz
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 11:04 am ((PST))

Jennifer,

I am in Southern Ohio. Please feel free to email me directly if you wish.

You don't have to buy 'pet food.' You can buy what you would eat and feed
it to your dog. Buying in bulk is what creates the savings. Instead of
asking for "scraps for the dog(s)" just ask for a cut that you would eat.
Or ask for whole cuts and divide once you have them. But, make sure you
have to have a place to store what you buy.

Ask for beef or pork hearts by the case. I found a turkey processor locally
that sells scrap in 40# containers. I also found a butcher that gives me
free scraps. It's mostly fat, but I go through and toss what I don't need
or won't use.

Instead of asking the price of scraps at a supplier ask for a price list.
If they don't have a price list then ask for the price specific cuts of meat
by the case. They're just selling it. They don't care who eats it.

Some suppliers have quantity issues and won't sell to you unless you by a
significant quantity.

Subscribe to local grocery store "weekly ads." The ones locally here email
them weekly. This way I can do a quick scan of meat costs without having to
drive to each location.

There's also the Lis List, which is referred to here often:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/139618,

Good luck,

Dave

On Jan 7, 2008 12:57 PM, jfashian <jfashian@columbus.rr.com> wrote:

> I just joined this group after reading online one night about the
> benefits of raw feeding. I'm ready to switch our almost 13 year old
> lab/boxer mix over to raw. I just called our local meat processor and
> they said they don't have "cheap cuts of meat" to sell me. They say
> they sell dogs bones for $3 each. I asked why they couldn't sell me any
> leftover parts and they said it was against government regulations to
> sell "inedible cuts of meat." HELP, do I have to buy all my meat from
> the local groceries? Did I ask the wrong thing when I asked
> for "leftover cuts of cheap meat for my dog" ? What specifically
> should I ask for when I approach the butcher at the grocery?
>
> Anyone live in Ohio?
>
> Jennifer
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
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2d. Re: local meat supplier won't sell me meat
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 11:34 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Tina Berry" <k9baron@...> wrote:
>

> Don't feel bad, I called every meat processor in my area when
> we first moved here, and only ONE agreed to give me all his
> scraps during hunting season -

Tina, the big mistake you are making is calling. Go visit in person.
It's just too easy to say no to a phone call that is interrupting
their day. Much harder in person.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (7)
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2e. local meat supplier won't sell me meat
Posted by: "Erika" Erika@redangelbordeaux.com redangelbordeaux
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 11:34 am ((PST))

I have the same problem here (AZ) Grocery stores will not sell me food past it's expiration dates. Processing houses will not give or sell me scrap or awful from butchering and all deceased animals from farms natural death or otherwise must be sent to a rendering facility.

Legaly all these places must throw away the "trash" or they can loose there license to to business :( Trust me I have been on the super hunt lately and have been spending about $100 a week on food!

Let me know if you find a way around the red tape because I sure have not found it.

Erika

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
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2f. Re: local meat supplier won't sell me meat
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 2:34 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 1/7/2008 11:34:41 AM Pacific Standard Time,
Erika@redangelbordeaux.com writes:

Erika,

these are Federal regulations and they can get in serious trouble for
breaking the rules.

you're going at this wrong. You want to get good deals on meat, watch the
sale ads every week, here is a handy website for such things:

_http://www.sundaysaver.com/#3_ (http://www.sundaysaver.com/#3)

go to private farms, folks that just raise goats or sheep for themselves, not
USDA inspected meat processors. Often private farms will sell their
stillborns and culls for cheap or even free.

Again, avoiding USDA inspected facilities, find a custom butcher, and ask for
the scrap parts of the animals that get butchered, i'm not sure what the
rules are about paying.. i believe they can't actually sell it. Doesn't mean they
won't let you go through the scrap barrel and pick out what you want.

And, last but certainly not least.. as weak and pitiful as they are, there
are meat buying co-ops in AZ.

_http://www.tucsonraw.com/index.htm_ (http://www.tucsonraw.com/index.htm)
i'm not sure how active these folks are still.. but they used to get some
pretty good deals on bulk purchases.

_http://www.butcherbobsinc.com/index.html_

(http://www.butcherbobsinc.com/index.html) I've never dealt with these folks, but they make a ground dog food
and i believe they give discounts on cases of real food.

When i'm in Phoenix i also go to Scottsdale and stop at Lee Lee's Asian
Supermarket (Warner and Dobson) and the Food City on 35th Ave and Glendale. There
may be other Food City's that have the same selection and prices for cheap
organs, but i never found them.

you should also try the Carnivore Feeder/Supplier list. I've heard rumors of
a new meat buying group in Phoenix from some friends that are raw feeders
there.

Good Luck, i know how hard it is to find cheap meat in AZ.. it's almost worth
the drive to CA.. sometimes..

Catherine R.

**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.

http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
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3a. Re: BRAND NEW TO RAW DIET
Posted by: "mozookpr" mozookpr@yahoo.com mozookpr
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 11:34 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "kimhollett" <kimhollett@...>
wrote:
>
> 1. Should skin be removed from chicken?

It might be helpful at first, if your dog has runny stools. I
skinned all of Sophie's chicken at first, but I don't anymore.

> 2. What about sausages? Should they be fed?

NO! It's best to avoid enhanced or flavored ("in a solution of...")
meats altogether, but sometimes you have to look at the fine print to
find out. With sausage, you already KNOW it's enhanced. The added
spices and flavorings are unnecessary and can make some dogs ill, or
at least give them a bout of cannon butt that you don't really need.
>3. Ground meat (some say feed it & some say not to??)

It won't kill them, certainly it beats the heck out of kibble, but it
is not the best thing, either. If money is tight and the price is
irresistable, go ahead (although I bet you can get some nice pork
shoulder or chicken quarters cheaper), but be sure to give them
something boney, too. Many people use ground to help transition
reluctant cats, since they cannot safely fast, but dogs don't
generally need this step to accept raw food.

Cheers,

Wendy

Messages in this topic (4)
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4a. Re: beef, pork and lamb...
Posted by: "Elizabeth" rainsou1@yahoo.com rainsou1
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 11:34 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>Thank you, Chris. It just looks like the only big difference is that
heart is considerably higher in iron than regular muscle meat, which
is to be expected, of course.:)
-Liz

> When you want to compare, your best bet is the USDA website. I am
> perfectly comfortable feeding heart meat as muscle meat (after all the
> heart is a muscle) but you want to check the bells and whistles, the
> USDA website is standing ready to serve.
>
> http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/
> Chris O
>

Messages in this topic (11)
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5a. Re: Portion size for Mastiffs
Posted by: "deb_earl_veil" deb_earl_veil@yahoo.com deb_earl_veil
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 12:07 pm ((PST))

-
hi,
we have two cane corso Mastiifs. my male Zeus is 14months old and about
150 lbs. in general was feeding him about 2.5% of his weight a day
whic was about 3.75lbs. noticd last week that he is getting a bit puggy
losing the hourglass a bit so we dropped him down to aobut 3lbs a day.
our femaile is 9 months and about 70lbs, she is getting about 3% being
around2.1;bs a day. IO do split there meals into 2 and usually if they
did not get enough they will let me know. scratch there kennel, play
witht he bowl. The old me when Zeus would do that would be sukered into
giving him a second helping, but not any more. some nights he has
protested to what he is getting and if in 20min hasnt eatenm ok fine,
it goes back in the fridge for dinner! Which if he is really in a
stuborn mood he iwll skip 3 meals but never 4. even though it is tough,
I make myself not give him extra when plays finiky when finally does
eat for us. I know there are so many different ideas out about how much
and how often to feed, I feel that everyone has to gage it based on
there pet. Cause the only one that truely knows there pet is you.

Blessed Be
Deb and Earl

-- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "A." <ols@...> wrote:
>
> I was wondering about how many pounds you rawfeeders with Mastiffs
(or
> other giant breeds) are feeding a day? How old are they and how much
> do they weigh too?
>
> I am still adjusting what I am feeding my girls & finding the best
for
> each and was curious how close I am to others :)
>
> ~Amanda
>

Messages in this topic (10)
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5b. Re: Portion size for Mastiffs
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 12:46 pm ((PST))

"noticd last week that he is getting a bit puggy losing the hourglass a bit
so we dropped him down to aobut 3lbs a day. our femaile is 9 months and
about 70lbs, she is getting about 3% being around2.1;bs a day. IO do split
there meals into 2 and usually if they did not get enough they will let me
know."

I recommend feeding once a day - it's more fulfilling to them for one and
gives their system a break before next feeding. Sounds like you are feeding
just right tho; if their ribs disappear I feed more, if I can barely see
their ribs they are just right.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (10)
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6a. Not OT, I hope, just had to share!
Posted by: "mozookpr" mozookpr@yahoo.com mozookpr
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 12:46 pm ((PST))

I am so excited! I picked up a used freezer last Friday, and it is
plugged in and running like a dream. $100 for 15.6 cu. ft., through
the local paper.

Can't wait to SHOP, and already have a request pending on Freecycle for
old/unwanted meat...

Cheers,

Wendy

Messages in this topic (3)
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6b. Re: Not OT, I hope, just had to share!
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 12:52 pm ((PST))

I am so excited! I picked up a used freezer last Friday, and it is
plugged in and running like a dream. $100 for 15.6 cu. ft., through
the local paper.

Can't wait to SHOP, and already have a request pending on Freecycle for
old/unwanted meat...

#### oh, you are SO adorable!... I LOVE newbies...wide eyed,
enthusiastic...so sweet.

Just don't make the error I make, over and over.... it is ALL Ricco's
freezer with a TEENY corner for me ...

There aren't many other people in this world whom would understand how
excited you are except us. We are ALL excited for you!!!! I used to feel
excited about a new pair of shoes, in my younger day, NOW, it's a great deal
on assorted body parts for my boy. *sigh*...

Chia & Ricco

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Messages in this topic (3)
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6c. Re: Not OT, I hope, just had to share!
Posted by: "mozookpr" mozookpr@yahoo.com mozookpr
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 1:34 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Chia <chia.m@...> wrote:
>
> #### oh, you are SO adorable!... I LOVE newbies...wide eyed,
> enthusiastic...so sweet.
>
> Just don't make the error I make, over and over.... it is ALL
Ricco's
> freezer with a TEENY corner for me ...
>
>... I used to feel
> excited about a new pair of shoes, in my younger day, NOW, it's a
great deal
> on assorted body parts for my boy. *sigh*...
>
>
>
> Chia & Ricco
>
>
LOL...you should have seen my ecstatic post when one of my dogs
finally got over newbie cannon butt and had a normal poo!

15.6 is pretty big. I have a Pom, a Sheltie, and six cats. There
should be some room left for me, I hope! (um...make that, for my
food...<g>)

Glad I made you smile,

Wendy

Messages in this topic (3)
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7a. Re: Varying views
Posted by: "muirghealfinne" muirghealfinne@yahoo.com muirghealfinne
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 12:47 pm ((PST))

Thanks for all your advice and suggestions! Cliodhna (Clee-in-ah) my
fieldie has had two days now with only raw meals. We decided to go
cold-turkey! The first day she had a little bit of runny stool but
today's was nice and firm! We're sticking with chicken and turkey and
a little bit of veggies for right now...

Thanks again,

Nicole and Cliodhna

Messages in this topic (6)
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8a. Re: Chihuahua with missing teeth- feeding recommendations? update &
Posted by: "Robert Ekendahl" robert@ekendahl.org ekendahl
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 12:47 pm ((PST))

Thanks for the update,

Stories like this makes me tear up :-). I have an old cat I just
switched a week ago and I'm still bummed out for the 8 years of slow
poisioning I did to her with ki***e (even if well intended). I can see
similar changes in my cat already; her fur went from dull and shedding
to silky within 48 hours, her stance when being played with (by my dog
is ) is much more mobile/strong, her jump onto tables more confident.
She's still an old cat but she's regaining grace.

It's amazing what appropriate food can do!

/Robert Ekendahl.

Messages in this topic (7)
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8b. Re: Chihuahua with missing teeth- feeding recommendations? update &
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 12:53 pm ((PST))

Thanks for the update,

It's amazing what appropriate food can do!

### I know what you mean. I get SO mad at myself for EVER feeding my
previous animals kibble. It is so obvious, and right in your face, how
crucial proper nutrition is, just like as it is for us.

Yet, somehow, we get brainwashed over the years or get made to feel we are
not competent enough to feed our pets real foods. All marketing and money,
I KNOW!

Food is medicine and can be a friend or a foe depending on how it is used.

Just remember this quote whenever you feel angry at yourself...

'I did then, what I knew then, and when I knew better, I did better'

Maya Angelou

Chia & Ricco

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Messages in this topic (7)
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9a. Thrist
Posted by: "Gaye Amick" northernskychar@netzero.com northernskyacademy
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 1:34 pm ((PST))

I start the diet last Thursday and have noticed two of my dogs (Rott
and Malinois) have had their thrist increase. Is this normal. The
Beagle has not.

Thanks
Gaye

Messages in this topic (2)
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9b. Re: Thrist
Posted by: "godkrittersnkids" godkrittersnkids@yahoo.com godkrittersnkids
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 2:28 pm ((PST))

I started my boys three days ago, and their thirst has decreased...I
was thinking it had to so maybe with the amount of salt that was in
their k***le...good question!

Linda

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Gaye Amick" <northernskychar@...>
wrote:
>
> I start the diet last Thursday and have noticed two of my dogs (Rott
> and Malinois) have had their thrist increase. Is this normal. The
> Beagle has not.
>
> Thanks
> Gaye
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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10a. Re: Future newbee in training
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 2:07 pm ((PST))

Why wait? Denise

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "shantith38" <shantith38@...> wrote:
... HE LOVED IT!!!... I think next weekend will be the switch.

Messages in this topic (9)
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10b. Re: Future newbee in training
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 3:14 pm ((PST))

Ooohh, Anna, I wouldn't use Pepto!!

If Ram has a digestive upset with discomfort, I'd use the SEBP - its much
more soothing to the innards, without "stopping them up" unnaturally.

TC
Giselle

On Jan 7, 2008 8:29 AM, shantith38 <shantith38@yahoo.com> wrote:

> So Sunday was trim and freeze for the people meats, and I couldn't
> resist giving Ram some trim from the shoulder cartilage (no skin,
> very little fat) just to see how he would take it. HE LOVED IT!!!
> <snip>
>

> and I have pepto on hand in case we have
> any crises this week. I think I'm actually more excited than Ram! I
> can't wait to do do dog shopping the same place I people shop! Seems
> more appropriate that way, not to mention loads more convenient!
>
> Thanks so much, Let you know how it goes!
>
> Anna Ram and Pol
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
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11a. Meat Grazing
Posted by: "Lynette" lraefried@sbcglobal.net cherrysmomma
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 2:07 pm ((PST))

I have read a lot about people giving their dogs raw meat and then
pick it up and put it away and then giving it back at next feeding. Is
it OK to just leave it outside and if she does not feel like eating it
right away she can go nibble on it later?

Because, usually when I give the 1lb daily meal; she licks it, carries
it around, maybe chews a bit then leaves it and later will go out and
eat a bit more. Sometimes she will leave part of it for the next day.
And the only drawback I see is once in a while a big Texas vulture
comes and lands on our fence to take a look.

Lynette

Messages in this topic (2)
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11b. Re: Meat Grazing
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 2:29 pm ((PST))

"Is it OK to just leave it outside and if she does not feel like eating it
right away she can go nibble on it later?" No, this is called free feeding;
it's like leaving a bowl of .... down and letting them eat whenever they
want. You control the food, not the dog.
"Because, usually when I give the 1lb daily meal; she licks it, carries it
around, maybe chews a bit then leaves it and later will go out and eat a bit
more. Sometimes she will leave part of it for the next day."

Then you might be feeding her too much and she is self regulating which is
fine; but I still would not leave the food down longer then 20 minutes; if
she doesn't eat pick it up and offer it the next meal. I recommend feeding
once a day and if it's not gone in 20 minutes, pick it up til tomorrow.
You will soon have an eager wanting to eat dog, and easier to train as well
- it all fits together.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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12. Re: Thirst
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 2:36 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 1/7/2008 1:35:14 PM Pacific Standard Time,
northernskychar@netzero.com writes:

I start the diet last Thursday and have noticed two of my dogs (Rott
and Malinois) have had their thrist increase. Is this normal. The
Beagle has not.

Gaye,

Most dogs' thirst decreases when they start eating raw. the meat is mostly
water.. and kibble is mostly NOT. So they don't need as much water when they
are eating properly.

I do know that my dogs often drink more water when they eat pork or turkey.
And after larger than usual meals.

Catherine R.

**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.

http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12470

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Need advice on new dog
From: Iggy Momma
1b. Re: Need advice on new dog
From: Andrea
1c. Re: Need advice on new dog
From: carnesbill

2a. Re: Recent Vet Visit
From: costrowski75
2b. Re: Recent Vet Visit
From: Howard Salob
2c. Re: Recent Vet Visit
From: carnesbill
2d. Re: Recent Vet Visit
From: costrowski75
2e. Re: Recent Vet Visit
From: ginny wilken

3a. Re: Horse Turds
From: costrowski75

4a. Re: First Meal - Not without questions!
From: Andrea

5a. Re: feeding a puppy concern
From: Mandy Walter
5b. Re: feeding a puppy concern
From: Tina Berry

6a. Re: Wow people are nutz!
From: steph.sorensen
6b. Re: Wow people are nutz!
From: mozookpr

7a. Re: Pork? / wild hog
From: Donna Forrester

8a. Re: Hungry pug asking for more
From: mozookpr

9a. Re: How much protein?
From: susrob061174

10a. Re: poop discussion
From: Josie Jareski

11a. Re: Feeding raw egg to new puppy
From: Tina Berry

12a. Re: beef, pork and lamb...
From: costrowski75

13a. Re: Feeding a puppy concern
From: costrowski75

14a. Re: BRAND NEW TO RAW DIET
From: Tina Berry

15a. Re: Hello of Denmark
From: Tina Berry

16. local meat supplier won't sell me meat
From: jfashian

17a. Re: Chihuahua with missing teeth- feeding recommendations? update &
From: Kim

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Need advice on new dog
Posted by: "Iggy Momma" lovemyiggies@gmail.com italiangreyhoundmomma
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 7:46 am ((PST))

I just adopted a 4 year old Cavalier King Charles almost a month ago now,
she's been the most wonderful, affectionate, loyal dog I could have ever
imagined! We're just having one small problem, I can not get her to touch
raw! She's a retired breeder from a friend of mine that raises Cavaliers,
she's had 3 litters now, so she's done with motherhood and ready to be just
a pet, but I think a raw diet would greatly benefit her and build her body
back up from the puppies. Any advice on how to go about getting her to eat
raw? When I switched my other dogs over, I had no problems getting them on
a raw diet, they just dove right in from day one without any problems, but
Amber will just look at it and walk away, she has no interest at all in it.
She's been on a kibble diet her whole life, but I would think at only 4
years she should still be open enough that I can eventually get her to eat
raw, I just have no idea how to even start the process with a dog that
doesn't show any interest in raw meat!

Lydia
Les Beau Italian Greyhounds
Iggy Palace Sighthound Rescue
Owned by Hannah, Ivy and Piper (IGs) and Amber (CKCS)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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1b. Re: Need advice on new dog
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 8:27 am ((PST))

First make sure that you don't have any leftover kibble in the house
that she is holding out for. At mealtime give her the food and if
she shows no interest in eating it after 15 minutes pick it up and
put it away. Don't coax or baby her, just matter of factly take it
back up. Next mealtime do the same thing. Don't offer treats or any
other food items between meals. After a couple of missed meals
she'll realize that you aren't going to cave and she'll start eating.

Some dogs don't recognize raw as food, especially chicken since it
isn't very aeromatic. You can help her by warming the food in a bowl
of hot water before feeding. You can also cut ribbons into the meat
for her to get started on. Smashing parmesan cheese or some other
bribe food into the cuts or under the skin helps as well. Don't
worry, as long as she's a healthy dog she won't starve herself.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Iggy Momma" <lovemyiggies@...>
wrote:

> I just have no idea how to even start the process with a dog that
> doesn't show any interest in raw meat!

Messages in this topic (3)
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1c. Re: Need advice on new dog
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 8:33 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Iggy Momma" <lovemyiggies@...>
wrote:
>
> I just have no idea how to even start the process with a dog that
> doesn't show any interest in raw meat!

Hi Lydia,
There is a good chance that she doesn't understand that what you are
giving her is actually food. I suggest you offer her some raw
food. Leave the out until she shows no interest for about 10
minutes. Without making a big deal of it, take up the food and
place in the fridge. Next mealtime take the original food out of
the fridge and offer again. No between meal treats or snacks.
Repeat the process as long as necessary. Some dogs will take 3 or 4
days to begin eating, most eat in a day or so. Don't worry, she
won't starve. No dog will starve itself in the presence of food.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
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2a. Re: Recent Vet Visit
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 7:55 am ((PST))

Howard Salob <itiskismet1968@...> wrote:
>> I am a doctor and you are 100% right in your statement- they help
and do not harm- especially with the source of meat most people give
out.
*****
Howard, how does meat source determine the need for a probiotic?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (24)
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2b. Re: Recent Vet Visit
Posted by: "Howard Salob" itiskismet1968@yahoo.com itiskismet1968
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 8:31 am ((PST))

Dear Chris O,

My reply was based on hormone laden,radiated, steroid filled and laced with antibiotics meats that are given to our dogs and cats (from certain supermarket chains and the like). I do feed raw and it has helped save my animals lives. I am grateful for all the help you and other members have supplied me. I think I have posted an e-mail stating this. I think free range animals (like venison) are the best to give, but when supermarket food that has been filled with the above mentioned goodies it does not hurt to give probiotics. I am not stating anyone should do this. I agree with anyone's right to do what is best for their animals. That is why I give raw to mine. I know this is off topic but would to see everyone eat the healthiest they can. I would want everyone to enjoy the longest life possible with their cats and dogs.

Sincerely,

Howard

costrowski75 <Chriso75@AOL.COM> wrote:
Howard Salob <itiskismet1968@...> wrote:
>> I am a doctor and you are 100% right in your statement- they help
and do not harm- especially with the source of meat most people give
out.
*****
Howard, how does meat source determine the need for a probiotic?
Chris O

---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (24)
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2c. Re: Recent Vet Visit
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 8:32 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Howard Salob <itiskismet1968@...>
wrote:

> I am a doctor and you are 100% right in your statement- they
> help and do not harm- especially with the source of meat most
> people give out.

No one said they harm. I maintain that probiotics for dogs are pretty
innocuous. That is, they have no effect because they are killed in
the highly acidic canine stomach. I will continue to maintain that
until someone can explain how the probiotics get through the stomach
of the dog since the dog's digestive juices are more than 50%
hydrochloric acid and fully capable of killing the salmonella, e-coli
and other harmful bacteria. If the stomach juices kill this strong
dangerious bacteria, the probiotics will also be easily killed.

The vet I spoke to told me that about the only way to get probiotics
high into the colon via the anus. These probiotics just can't reach
the gut via the mouth.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (24)
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2d. Re: Recent Vet Visit
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 8:34 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Howard Salob <itiskismet1968@...>
wrote:
>> My reply was based on hormone laden,radiated, steroid filled and
laced with antibiotics meats that are given to our dogs and cats (from
certain supermarket chains and the like).
*****
How do these impede digestion?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (24)
________________________________________________________________________

2e. Re: Recent Vet Visit
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 10:22 am ((PST))

On Jan 7, 2008, at 8:02 AM, Howard Salob wrote:

> Dear Chris O,
>
> My reply was based on hormone laden,radiated, steroid filled and
> laced with antibiotics meats that are given to our dogs and cats
> (from certain supermarket chains and the like). I do feed raw and
> it has helped save my animals lives. I am grateful for all the help
> you and other members have supplied me. I think I have posted an e-
> mail stating this. I think free range animals (like venison) are
> the best to give, but when supermarket food that has been filled
> with the above mentioned goodies it does not hurt to give
> probiotics. I am not stating anyone should do this. I agree with
> anyone's right to do what is best for their animals. That is why I
> give raw to mine. I know this is off topic but would to see
> everyone eat the healthiest they can. I would want everyone to
> enjoy the longest life possible with their cats and dogs.
>
>

And, even if this were entirely true, which I don't quite buy into,
how would any of this determine need for a probiotic?

And where, in the literature, is there any actual evidence that
probiotics survive the extremely strong stomach acids of canines to
even get to the intestines?

We're into facts here, Howard, so don't take it personally. Glad raw
is working for you!

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (24)
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3a. Re: Horse Turds
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 7:58 am ((PST))

Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
>> Read the book " Raw Meaty Bone" by Tom landole
*****
That would be Lonsdale.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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4a. Re: First Meal - Not without questions!
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 8:10 am ((PST))

> First I fed Hansel, my boston a couple ounce of semi frozen thigh.
> <snip> he chewed, crunched and kept regurgitating it back up into a
> foamy slime. That's normal right? It does really scare me.

Eating and immediately vomiting it back up usually means he didn't
get it small enough the first time around. He would probably do
better with a chicken quarter than a couple of thighs.

> I would eventually like to feed him bigger pieces but he guards. I
> don't think I should begin feeding raw by taking it away?

After the first few meals with my first puppy I started giving him
larger than single portions for a meal and taking it away. I always
traded him something for what I was taking and we never had any
problems with him happily giving up his food.

I think it helped being alone with him and not having

> He threw up and ate them again.

Again, it's likely he didn't get it right the first time. This
happens from time to time, but bigger food would probably help too.

You're doing great! Keep doing what you're doing, maybe with a
little tweaking, but you are on the right track.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (2)
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5a. Re: feeding a puppy concern
Posted by: "Mandy Walter" mandy.0613@hotmail.com mandy07cherries
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 8:31 am ((PST))

EDITED BY MODERATOR. PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES!

Thank you for your feedback. I am very new at the raw diet and any advice is most helpful. I do like my dogs to be lean, I dont have any overweight dogs at all. I like to easily feel their hip, back, and rib bones. They are very active always running around, typical border collie. I just have a hard time keeping them at a decent weight.
Im glad you let me know about what I should be feeding. I appreciate it. What I was told about their legs was that I was giving to much protein and this caused their legs to turn out. I was also told something about a calcium/phosphorus ratio or something like that that puppies need to get. My border collies one is a year and the other is 7 months. My aussie is 4 months and my jack russel is a little over a year.

I appreciate your feedback.

Thanks again
Mandy

Messages in this topic (3)
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5b. Re: feeding a puppy concern
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 9:21 am ((PST))

"What I was told about their legs was that I was giving to much protein and
this caused their legs to turn out. I was also told something about a
calcium/phosphorus ratio or something like that that puppies need to get."

This is common for kibble fed puppies. Prey model raw diet you do not need
to worry about rations. Only that you are feeding approximately 80% muscle
meat, 10% bone, 10% organs over time.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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6a. Re: Wow people are nutz!
Posted by: "steph.sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 8:32 am ((PST))

If it makes you feel any better Heather, I get flagged and deleted
every time I try to post an ad on Craigslist. I have had limited
success with scoring some venison with Freecycle though. I am only
allowed to post the same thing once a month though, so it makes it
hard to keep it in people's brains - especially after they've hit
delete!

-Steph and the girls

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Heather" <newbeginnings06@...>
wrote:
>
> I tried to post on my local Freecycle and they told me asking for
food
> was against the rules! I can post food I don't want but can't ask
for
> it.. even though it's for my dog and cat. I never got replies of CL
> either. :( I envy all of you that hit it big that way.
>
> Heather
>

Messages in this topic (22)
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6b. Re: Wow people are nutz!
Posted by: "mozookpr" mozookpr@yahoo.com mozookpr
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 10:27 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "T Smith" <coldbeach@...> wrote:
>
> We don't have CL close enough to me but here's what I use for
> freecycle...Feel free to use it :-) It's worked for me & no meanies
> replied.
>
Trina,

I am going to give this a try, edited for my dogs, of course, who are
hardly Danes. Thanks for posting it! I will let you know the results.

Cheers,

Wendy

Messages in this topic (22)
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7a. Re: Pork? / wild hog
Posted by: "Donna Forrester" birdiegirl67@comcast.net birdiegirl67
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 8:42 am ((PST))

Hi Lynne! BF= boyfriend <grin>

I'd hate to see a Bichon Frise after 'wrastling' a wild hog; just think
how much work the groomer would have to do............

Donna

Messages in this topic (9)
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8a. Re: Hungry pug asking for more
Posted by: "mozookpr" mozookpr@yahoo.com mozookpr
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 9:21 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "katkellm" <katkellm@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mozookpr" <mozookpr@> wrote:
>
> > I suspect that animals overeat for the same reasons people do:
> > boredom, bad habits, or simply because FOOD TASTES GOOD!
>
> I think that defining overeating is probably where the problem starts.
>

I define overeating as eating that results in obesity.

Having said that, I agree that the way dogs eat and the way people eat
are different, although there are those who say the urge to gorge is
still biologically present in humans, too, food not always having been
available at the local grocer's.

The main reason for my reply was the "apples and oranges" comparison of
reducing from cups of kibble to a chicken leg and reducing from a whole
chicken to a chicken leg. Since real meat meets a dog's nutritional
needs in a way that kibble never can, it seems logical that they would
need less of it. We know that; dogs don't. So, when they are first
offered real food, yeah, I can see them being insatiable for it. (They
might not "catch" such good prey tomorrow, as you pointed out.)

This dog has been eating raw for a week, if I remember correctly. His
appetite may diminish as he adapts to the continued presence of real
food, and learns that this is not just a miraculous windfall, but a
regular event. (This is what happened with mine.) Or he may be a dog,
who, like some people, never knows when to quit and would stuff himself
at every opportunity. Either way, the impression I have, from reading
the list, is that gorge feeding has its place, but may not be the best
thing for a dog so new to raw.

Cheers,

Wendy

Messages in this topic (22)
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9a. Re: How much protein?
Posted by: "susrob061174" susrob061174@yahoo.com susrob061174
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 9:21 am ((PST))

<<All of the studies were not carried out by kibble companies and
they do state that quality is important.>>

I agree with you Sandee in every way. I was just curious what
protein source they used for the study. Quality is best, but what
quality are they talking about, Organic corn, wheat etc.. Just for
once I wish they would do a all meat/bone/organs source study and go
from there and I have not yet seen one. I hear what it does for my
dog, your dog and a friends dog but a lot of people still believe
the brainwash crap that vets way is best. I hear and believe that
meat and grain protein is different in everyway so there will be
different results.

<<Waltham has admitted dogs have no need for carbohydrates, Iams has
put out studies showing that dogs require meat based protein.
Selling their food is all about business and profit...that doesn't
mean they don't know the truth or that all of their studies are
unfounded.>>

True. Do you really think they would give the truth about a meat
based diet, that would hurt their pockets. I dont care what kind of
k****e it is there is still got additives, fillers and all the rest
of the crap in a bag.

<<Anyway, if we follow nature our pups will have all the nutrients
they require for perfect growth without us worrying about doing a
balancing act. Controlled growth is a result of feeding
appropriately which is prey model....that means lots of meat, a
little bone and organs.>>

I Agree, I Agree. Even in nature, it not balanced. I started
feeding raw (well it was called B**F at first 70/20/10)in 1998.
Since 2005 it been rawfeeding. But may dogs have been so darn
healthy, they hardy even go to the vet. I have had one successful
litter of 9 Great Danes whelped and reared on raw and with no
problems.

I look at nature. This may be nuts, but Im a mother wolf. I look for
food for my babies. At first, (puppies) I don't give bones just meat
then by the time at the age of 3 to 4 months I start adding bones. I
keep an eye out on the puppy's condition, not to rolly polly and not
to skiny. I had a total of 12 Danes, 2 from the age of 8 wks and 14
wks, one rescue at 6 yrs and 9 pups at once and not one had an bone
problems and growing pains. I had the raw reared pups up until the
age of 6 months then I started to place them into homes. I think I
have my study. I believe in raw, you just got to understand nature
and know what you are doing.

Susanne, Courtney & the Danes (Zoe, Wilson & Annie)
www.streborsgreatdanes.com

Having a Dane is Grand? Have you licked you Dane today? :P

Remember - science is not better than nature. When man changes
things from their natural state to increase profits, the food is no
longer 'real'. It becomes a man-made imitation.

Messages in this topic (17)
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10a. Re: poop discussion
Posted by: "Josie Jareski" jjareski1@hotmail.com jjareski
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 9:35 am ((PST))

EDITED BY MODERATOR. TRIM YOUR MESSAGES OR RISK DELETION.

I've been feeding raw for about 4 weeks in the beginning I too got the slimy stuff. I called several people that feed raw asking if this was normal or not and they all said yes and not to worry about it. After feeding necks and bony things I do find bone in the poop but never outside the poop. Or do you think she may have brought it back up in the yard then all you would see is the bone? Hope this helps you.

Josie Gizmo and Sadie

Messages in this topic (6)
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11a. Re: Feeding raw egg to new puppy
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 9:35 am ((PST))

"Can I give raw egg to the new puppy or should I wait until she is older? If
I should wait, when is a good time to introduce the egg?"

Mine get an egg daily - just introduce slow so you don't give them the
squirts.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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12a. Re: beef, pork and lamb...
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 9:59 am ((PST))

"Elizabeth" <rainsou1@...> wrote:>
> I was just making sure that there was not some sort of sizable
> difference between feeding heart or feeding regular muscle meats, or
> if I would be missing something from buying heart as the muscle meat.
*****
When you want to compare, your best bet is the USDA website. I am
perfectly comfortable feeding heart meat as muscle meat (after all the
heart is a muscle) but you want to check the bells and whistles, the
USDA website is standing ready to serve.

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/
Chris O

Messages in this topic (10)
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13a. Re: Feeding a puppy concern
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 10:20 am ((PST))

Mandy Walter <mandy.0613@...> wrote:
> Hi Everyone, I am fairly new to the forum, I have just been reading
the discussions. I am new at feeding raw and I have 4 puppies.
*****
How old? Same age? How do you survive? One pup at a time is
challenge enough!

I was told that I needed to buy the pre-packaged raw in order to
balance the meal for the puppies.
*****
This, as others have eloquently sritten, is untrue. You are
absolutely competent to feed your pups healthy, appropriate food.

I found that my puppies front legs started turning out when I was
giving the chicken quarters.
*****
These pups? How old were they then? Other pups? Frankly, I don't
see chicken quarters as causing this, and I don't see turning out
front legs as much more than puppy growth. While I do not recommend
feeding Chicken ala chicken, I can't see it structurally affecting
any dog immediately. People often expect puppies to be perfect. It
rarely works that way.

I wasnt sure how to balance their meals or if there was something I
was doing wrong. I was giving more than just the chicken of course. I
gave organ meat, green beans, yogurt, pumpkin, etc etc.
*****
Again, as others have written, stick to species appropriate food: no
veggies, no grains. Just flesh, fat, skin, connective tissue, organs
and edible bones. Adding inappropriate items does not make for
healthier menus or pups.

> My biggest question and concern is how and what to feed my growing
puppies. They are border collies and high energy. I have a hard time
keeping weight on them so I would give beef often but when I did that
I found they got the runs.
*****
You are probably reacting instead of responding. Beef is good, but
don't overdo its introduction. Fat is essential, but don't overfeed
it. I raised my BC (now 15 months) on chicken and beef and turkey
and venison and pork and quail and lamb and salmon and green tripe
and organs. It's all good; you simply have to introduce new foods
gently and be patient.

I suggest you continue feeding what works, start introducing new
meats, organs and edible bones, and gradually increase the amount of
food you offer. If you find a sudden increase causes loose stools
(this would be a normal reaction), spread the increase over more
meals. I fed my girl much "more" than her anticipated body weight
would indicate. It wasn't until she was close to a year that I was
able to cut back and have her maintain her athletic self without
looking skeletal. Today she still eats "more" than her weight
suggests.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (17)
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14a. Re: BRAND NEW TO RAW DIET
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 10:27 am ((PST))

"1. Should skin be removed from chicken?" No

"2. What about sausages? Should they be fed?" No - to many additivies
(spice, etc.)

"3. Ground meat (some say feed it & some say not to??)" If it's cheap why
not. But idealy you want big chunks of meat or meat on bone.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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Messages in this topic (3)
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15a. Re: Hello of Denmark
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 10:27 am ((PST))

"I live in Denmark, and have two dogs and three cats. I have feed them with
rawfood for ½ of a year. Especially the old dog on 11 yrs was pretty messed
up from eating the wrong food. After a week eating raw stuff his bad smell
disappeared. He used to have a bath once a week to remove the smell, but
that is not nessesary anymore. He smell just fine now. There was a lot more
good things happening from changing their diets,
but more about that later."

Welcome Tonny! Isn't raw feeding grand!!!!
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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Messages in this topic (3)
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16. local meat supplier won't sell me meat
Posted by: "jfashian" jfashian@columbus.rr.com jfashian
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 10:27 am ((PST))

I just joined this group after reading online one night about the
benefits of raw feeding. I'm ready to switch our almost 13 year old
lab/boxer mix over to raw. I just called our local meat processor and
they said they don't have "cheap cuts of meat" to sell me. They say
they sell dogs bones for $3 each. I asked why they couldn't sell me any
leftover parts and they said it was against government regulations to
sell "inedible cuts of meat." HELP, do I have to buy all my meat from
the local groceries? Did I ask the wrong thing when I asked
for "leftover cuts of cheap meat for my dog" ? What specifically
should I ask for when I approach the butcher at the grocery?

Anyone live in Ohio?

Jennifer

Messages in this topic (1)
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17a. Re: Chihuahua with missing teeth- feeding recommendations? update &
Posted by: "Kim" onlyzombiecat@embarqmail.com zombiecat3
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 10:27 am ((PST))

I wanted to thank those who replied to my original message on Dec.
29th about our newly adopted 8 year old 10.5 lb Chihuahua. I really
appreciated the advice and encouragement.

I also wanted to update a bit on how great Sophie is doing.

We have offered Sophie chicken wings as suggested. The first day she
stripped them of meat and skin but didn't really touch the bone. The
next day she got a little bone off the tip. Each day she is increasing
in confidence. Today she ate all the meat, skin and half the bone.
She has lost half a pound since we brought her home and started raw.
Her breath is so much nicer and she already looks healthier. She
actually jumped onto the sofa a few times this week.

Thanks again and best wishes,
Kim
Reggie- 18 month old Smooth Fox Terrier mix (11 months on raw)
Sophie- 8 year old Chihuahua (2 weeks on raw)

Messages in this topic (5)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12469

There are 12 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Horse Turds
From: pamela993748
1b. Re: Horse Turds
From: Yasuko herron

2a. Re: Recent Vet Visit
From: Howard Salob

3a. Re: I got TONS of free meat!!
From: homesforallpets
3b. Re: I got TONS of free meat!!
From: eventer2001

4a. Re: Tip to those with tight budgets
From: homesforallpets
4b. Re: Tip to those with tight budgets
From: cidny61

5a. Re: beef, pork and lamb...
From: Elizabeth

6a. Ooops...My intro!
From: gypsyjazmine

7a. Re: Future newbee in training
From: shantith38

8a. Re: Portion size for Mastiffs
From: esmolensky

9. Re: feeding a puppy concern
From: Michael Moore

Messages
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1a. Re: Horse Turds
Posted by: "pamela993748" pamduthie@btinternet.com pamela993748
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 3:26 am ((PST))

I believe that horse wormer (which is in the poo for 3 days after
worming the horse) is toxic to collie types so keep an eye out if your
dog has collie in them

Pam (and Ben)

Messages in this topic (6)
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1b. Re: Horse Turds
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 5:57 am ((PST))

>I started to feed RAW that horse or cow turds is great for dogs.

Read the book " Raw Meaty Bone" by Tom landole and it says steamy horse and cow poo is ok,and catpoo is well saught after by dog.

yassy

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (6)
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2a. Re: Recent Vet Visit
Posted by: "Howard Salob" itiskismet1968@yahoo.com itiskismet1968
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 3:26 am ((PST))

Dear Tammy,

I am a doctor and you are 100% right in your statement- they help and do not harm- especially with the source of meat most people give out.

Sincerely,

Howard

tammyco5@aol.com wrote:

I disagree with this. Probiotics do much more than just aid with digestion,
but does a very good job with this! Yeast is a fungus, (bad bacteria), and
probiotics are strains of good bacteria. You need to replace the bad bacteria
with the good. If your dog has ever been on one dose of antibiotics which
kills the good bacteria, you should give him probiotics. This vet is right to put
your dog on probiotics for the yeast in the ears or anywhere else in the
body. Just cleaning the ears externally is not going to kill the yeast
internally. Dogs that chew on their nails and between their feet most likely have
yeast there. It definitely will not hurt any animal to be on probiotics for
life. They're eating animals that have been given antibiotics. Probiotics are a
must for humans. Google probiotics and what they do for us and our pets. They
also strengthen the immune system.

Tammy :-)

In a message dated 1/5/2008 7:07:12 P.M. Central Standard Time,
carnesw@bellsouth.net writes:

Gave me two things to give him: iFlora
> acidophilus. Said he had to have this to get yeast under control.

She's full of it. Acidophilus is a probiotic. It supposedly aids
digestion and has no connecton to yeast infection in the ears. I
have serious doubts about it having any effect on dogs at all.

**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.

http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (19)
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3a. Re: I got TONS of free meat!!
Posted by: "homesforallpets" homesforallpets@yahoo.com homesforallpets
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 3:26 am ((PST))

>
> I didn't know you couldn't ask for meat. I haven't got any rude
> responses yet but I have gotten quite a few offers for small
> amounts. Problem is they are to far to drive to still be worth it
> (craigslist doesn't have a city closer to me so I post in the
> surrounding).
>
> ~Amanda
>

Lucky! I bet you posted on Springfield's and not KCs. I posted on
KC's because every now and then I go out that way. The folks on the
KC list don't seem to be too nice. I'll start trying the Springfield
one.

Kathy in MO

Messages in this topic (24)
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3b. Re: I got TONS of free meat!!
Posted by: "eventer2001" eventer2001@yahoo.com eventer2001
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 6:56 am ((PST))

I haven't gotten any hits from my CL posting, but I posted the same thing on Freecycle and was given 10 1# packages of deer meat and a 10# bag of chicken quarters. Had a couple people ask me what I was feeding, but never heard back from them after I told them. Certainly was not yelled at. I've also sent the same thing to all my local friends on email -- and was given some fish and a pound of deer meat.

I didn't mention feedign anything in the ad. just asked for any leftover uncooked meat (mentioned several types)... slightly freezer burnt or whatever... that people were getting rid of.

Tammy

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Messages in this topic (24)
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4a. Re: Tip to those with tight budgets
Posted by: "homesforallpets" homesforallpets@yahoo.com homesforallpets
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 3:26 am ((PST))

>
> You can buy chicken quarters at Walmart - 10 lb bag for $4.70. My
> stepdad gets food thru Angel Food and I think it's cheaper to buy at
> Walmart when you do a price per pound comparison. :)
>
> Heather
>

I know but when the monthly box has a bunch of meat my family won't
eat (beff and pork) and we can get that deal on boneless (even if it
has bone) breasts for us its a deal. They also have 3 other specials
all varying combos of meats. Like steaks. NICE steaks like New York
Strip. Each special is only $20.

Kathy in MO

Messages in this topic (7)
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4b. Re: Tip to those with tight budgets
Posted by: "cidny61" blujack@verizon.net cidny61
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 5:57 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "homesforallpets"
<homesforallpets@...> wrote:
>
called Angel Food Ministries
> they do a monthly box deal and if you get the box you can get the
> monthly specials. This month's special is 20# of chicken breasts
> ( This could work out
> to help feed the people and the dogs! For $50 you get lots of food
> for both. I believe the website is angelfoodministries.com might
> be .net or .org
>
> Kathy in MO
>
Thanks for the tip. I have used Angel Food in the past but some how
got out of the habit. It is a great program. They have locations all
over. To find the one close to you, check the main web site.
Cindy A

Messages in this topic (7)
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5a. Re: beef, pork and lamb...
Posted by: "Elizabeth" rainsou1@yahoo.com rainsou1
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 4:00 am ((PST))

Thanks, Yassy...
>
>
>
> > my dog gets gassy and itchy when she eats turkey and chicken,
>
> Check the label. Are they enhanced any ways like broth??

> No, I feed whole chickens that are plain. I even tear off all the
fat. The turkey I feed are these huge turkey necks that I buy
exclusively from a supplier for whole dog foods.
>
>
> >raw fish.
>
> Did you try quick searing method?

>No, but I feed everything frozen and in huge chunks, so it would be
rather hard for me to sear it. I don't think it would make a
difference. Normally when I feed her fish she just likes to roll in it
and bury it, haha.

> >nor can I acquire goat for a decent price,
>
> Sometimes, Asian store carry it I hear.Where do you live?

>I didn't even think to try an Asian market! Thank you for the tip,
because I live just a few blocks away from one that I have been
meaning to check out!
>
> >for elk and bison.
> I feed Elk and buffalo from Colorado... Are you interested?it is
at www.elkusa.com
>
>Ah, I have been to Elk USA before! I haven't actually browsed around
the site much, but I figured that since they were a ways away from me
it would be expensive to ship. It's an option. Thank you!

> I get pheasant whole from Hare today in PA too.
> > I didn't even know Hare today sold whole pheasants, so that's
excellent to know! I've tried several times to order duck from my
regular supplier, but they're always out, which is really quite
frustrating.

So, I need to check out the Asian market, go to Elk USA, and browse
around Hare today some more... Got it!
-Liz
>

Messages in this topic (9)
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6a. Ooops...My intro!
Posted by: "gypsyjazmine" GYPSY_JAZMINE@MSN.COM gypsyjazmine
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 5:57 am ((PST))

Ty but I just moved from Eastern IA to Western IA...Go figure! lol!

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, h h <deedeekinsisme@...> wrote:

> Not sure where in IA you are, but there's a "BARF Iowa" group that
mainly has members from Des Moines and on East. Not the most active
list, but they can tell you where some of the "connections" can be
found. (just ignore the neck/back & veggie talk)
>
> Heidi on the other side of the Muddy Mo.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.
Try it now.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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7a. Re: Future newbee in training
Posted by: "shantith38" shantith38@yahoo.com shantith38
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 5:57 am ((PST))

So Sunday was trim and freeze for the people meats, and I couldn't
resist giving Ram some trim from the shoulder cartilidge (no skin,
very little fat) just to see how he would take it. HE LOVED IT!!!
After he got over the " you're teasing right?" he daintily took it and
scarfed it down before I could change my mind, and then came back to
see if his luck would hold. I think next weekend will be the switch.
I stopped his pepcid Saturday, so a week should be more than enough
for him to metabolize the rest out of his system. I don't want to
start him at a disadvantage, and I have pepto on hand in case we have
any crisies this week. I think I'm actually more excited tham Ram! I
can't wait to do do dog shopping the same place I people shop! Seems
more appropriate that way, not to mention loads more convenient!

Thanks so much, Let you know how it goes!

Anna Ram and Pol

Messages in this topic (7)
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8a. Re: Portion size for Mastiffs
Posted by: "esmolensky" esmolensky@yahoo.com esmolensky
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 6:56 am ((PST))

I have 1 10 month old Boerboel and he weighs 110#. I try to feed him
4# a day. But he eats at around 3#.I feed him twice a day maybe until
he's over a year.

E & Reagan
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "tdifr62" <tdifraia@...> wrote:
>
> So in a nutshell the 14 month old gets between 1 and 4 % of his body
> weight on a daily basis. Over time he gets about 2%.
>
> The 14 week old baby gets between 4 and 8 % on a daily basis, and over
> time Id say he gets 6% of his body weight.
> Good Luck, and dont ya JUST love the Mastiffs?
>
> Tommy D.
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Morledzep@ wrote:
> > In a message dated 1/6/2008 11:37:28 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> > ols@ writes:
> >
> > I was wondering about how many pounds you rawfeeders with Mastiffs
(or
> > other giant breeds) are feeding a day? How old are they and how much
> > do they weigh too?
> >
> >
> >
>

Messages in this topic (8)
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9. Re: feeding a puppy concern
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 7:10 am ((PST))

>> I am new at feeding raw and I have 4 puppies. I was told that I needed to buy the pre-packaged raw in order to balance the meal for the puppies. I found that my puppies front legs started turning out when I was giving the chicken quarters. I wasnt sure how to balance their meals or if there was something I was doing wrong. I was giving more than just the chicken of course. I gave organ meat, green beans, yogurt, pumpkin, etc etc.<<

Mandy -- well, personally, I disagree 100% with the advice you were given, to start with. Nature has provided the perfect guide for feeding our dogs, and "balance" is an artificial term that kibble companies make tons of money off. Pre-pakaged raw may have lots of things you don't want your dogs to have -- along with its ridiculous price. Most folks here feed real food, straight from the store or butcher.
Dogs are carnivores. They need meat, bone, organs. Period. Green beans, yogurt, pumpkin, etc., etc. are unnecessary. I think your menu of chicken quarters was quite limited, but I fail to see how the connection was made that they were causing your puppies' front legs to turn out.
How old are your pups? My litter was weaned to raw, and at 8 wks. had no problems with venison. pork, beef heart, fish, turkey, lamb, or chicken. I started them on bone-in breasts, and moved quickly to other foods within a week or so. If your troop is a little older, you may need to go more slowly.

>>My biggest question and concern is how and what to feed my growing puppies. They are border collies and high energy. I have a hard time keeping weight on them so I would give beef often but when I did that I found they got the runs. Does anyone have any suggestions? <<

I understand your concern, truly, but it's so simple when you think about it. You feed growing puppies as you would an adult -- you may want to give more meals and you'll be giving more food, percentage-wise, than to an adult dog. I feed pups 4 times daily until four months of age, 3 times daily until 6 mos., 2 times until a year, then go to once a day feeding at a year of age.
Personally, BTW, I want my dogs (herding dogs, though not BCs) quite lean! It's healthier, and my dogs *do* lots of things -- agility, obedience, some herding-- etc. and they need to lean.
Chris O. has a young BC, so perhaps she can weigh in here, too.

-- Anne and the PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue

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