Feed Pets Raw Food: Sep 22, 2007

Saturday, September 22, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12059

There are 26 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: raw salmon
From: Morledzep@aol.com
1b. Re: raw salmon
From: T. S.
1c. Re: raw salmon
From: costrowski75
1d. Re: raw salmon
From: Morledzep@aol.com

2a. Re: What Easy to Get Meaty Bones will Really Clean my BIG Dog's ...
From: Morledzep@aol.com
2b. Re: What Easy to Get Meaty Bones will Really Clean my BIG Dog's ...
From: Giselle

3. Re: OT Mastiff - New To the group
From: Renate

4a. Re: Feeding schedule
From: Renate
4b. Re: Feeding schedule
From: costrowski75
4c. Re: Feeding schedule
From: Renate
4d. Re: Feeding schedule
From: lar07911

5a. Re: Why is my Beagle so disgusting?
From: cleone4100@aol.com
5b. Re: Why is my Beagle so disgusting?
From: steph.sorensen

6a. new to raw need help
From: abeautiful3
6b. Re: new to raw need help
From: Brandi Bryant
6c. Re: new to raw need help
From: Arlene Fell
6d. Re: new to raw need help
From: Brandi Bryant

7a. Re: HELP PLEASE? AVOCADO PIT :(((
From: ginny wilken
7b. Re: HELP PLEASE? AVOCADO PIT :(((
From: costrowski75

8. raw meaty bones.
From: paul.granitegallery

9a. I tried and raw is just not going to work.
From: one_sojourner_one
9b. Re: I tried and raw is just not going to work.
From: Sandee Lee
9c. Re: I tried and raw is just not going to work.
From: carnesbill

10a. Help! Creative solutions req'd...
From: rachelerm
10b. Re: Help! Creative solutions req'd...
From: carnesbill

11. Need advice on weight loss for large mixed breed
From: cockatoos4

Messages
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1a. Re: raw salmon
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:36 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/22/2007 11:39:45 AM Pacific Standard Time,
JoeTheLion1@yahoo.com writes:

is it okay to feed raw salmon including the backbone?

***all parts of the salmon are edible..

are you catching it in Mexico? or is it being caught somewhere else
entirely?

Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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1b. Re: raw salmon
Posted by: "T. S." JoeTheLion1@yahoo.com joethelion1
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:41 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE REMEMBER TO TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

i am not doing the fishing, i buy my fish at a local fish market where
they bring it in daily. i happened to be there today and asked them
if i can get some fish bones and he happened to be working on salmon
at the time so he dug around in the bin and pulled out a whole bunch
of stuff they toss which had some salmon on it (pink) which also
included the backbone and some of the other bones. i think it is
pacific salmon so i suppose it needs to be cooked. wasn't sure.

t.s.
ensenada, mexico

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Morledzep@... wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 9/22/2007 11:39:45 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> JoeTheLion1@... writes:
>
> is it okay to feed raw salmon including the backbone?
>
>
>
> ***all parts of the salmon are edible..
>
> are you catching it in Mexico? or is it being caught somewhere else
> entirely?
>
> Catherine R.
>
>
>
> ************************************** See what's new at
http://www.aol.com
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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1c. Re: raw salmon
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:55 pm ((PDT))

"T. S." <JoeTheLion1@...> wrote:
>
> is it okay to feed raw salmon including the backbone?
*****
Yes, most assuredly.
But with salmon there are other mitigating factors. What's the source
of the salmon--farmed or wild?

Farmed is safe to eat from a parasitic perspective but will deliver a
load of accumulated toxins. Wild salmon caught in the Pacific
Northwest (southern Alaska south to the mid-California coast) may habor
a potentially fatal parasite. Freezing kills it dead. Cooking kills
it dead (but also screws up the bones). Below mid-California, I don't
know. Are there even wild salmon in the Pacific off southern
California and Mexico?

If the salmon is okay raw, the spine is okay raw, too.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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1d. Re: raw salmon
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:50 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/22/2007 3:41:57 PM Pacific Standard Time,
JoeTheLion1@yahoo.com writes:

i think it is
pacific salmon so i suppose it needs to be cooked. wasn't sure.

ts,

not necessarily.. is it fresh? or has it been frozen previously? if it's
already been frozen it's fine to feed to the dogs.. but i wouldn't opt for bare
naked bones. RAW fish bones are just fine as long as they are covered with
meat, like any other bone.

cooking fish bones makes them into needles that can and will do damage. i
don't suppose you've ever accidentally eaten a cooked fish bone? had it get
stuck in the back of your throat? they are needle sharp and once they get lodged
in somewhere it's difficult to get them out and painful too.

remember.. NO COOKED BONES..
Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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2a. Re: What Easy to Get Meaty Bones will Really Clean my BIG Dog's ...
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:41 pm ((PDT))

In a message dated 9/22/2007 7:43:14 AM Pacific Standard Time,
melanieabrams@yahoo.com writes:

Are there any specific meaty bones you can
recommend that will do this? She works at her chicken halves, but I
don't think this is doing it. Easy to get stuff would be appreciated;
I can order more obscure things from the co op but not until next month.

Melanie,

my first suggestion would be pork shoulder butt and picnic roasts.. they are
big and the picnic has a good portion of skin that needs to be ripped and
requires LOTS of effort. Pork Picnic roasts are also inexpensive and easy to
find, at least in CA.

Catherine R.

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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2b. Re: What Easy to Get Meaty Bones will Really Clean my BIG Dog's ...
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:24 pm ((PDT))

Holiday season is coming up! Time to stock up on turkeys. : )
Fresh hams are great, too.
TC
Giselle

<snip>
> Are there any specific meaty bones you can
> recommend that will do this? She works at her chicken halves, but I
> don't think this is doing it. Easy to get stuff would be appreciated;
> I can order more obscure things from the co op but not until next month.

Messages in this topic (2)
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3. Re: OT Mastiff - New To the group
Posted by: "Renate" renate.tideswell@gmail.com tideswell_renate
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:44 pm ((PDT))

Welcome to the group. I'm new here too. You should check out
www.tinypawsdogrescue.org later on this week. We're having an on-line
auction to help one of our rescues and one of the items is an absolutely
gorgeous print of a watercolour of 2 mastiffs by Regine Manicom. It's
called 'The Sentinels'. I'm more into small dogs, but her work is
wonderful!
Renate

On 9/22/07, jerseykev@aol.com <jerseykev@aol.com> wrote:
>
> Hello everyone.
>
> I live on the Jersey Shore with my number one Mastiff "Baby Independence"
> -
> Baby for short.
>
> I am developing GuardiansByTheSea.com and need as much info on raw feeding
>
> as I can get.
>
> Baby is 4 1/2 months and I am much older.
>
> Glad to be apart of the group.
>
> Kevin & Baby
>
> ************************************** See what's new at
> http://www.aol.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

--
Renate
'The more I learn about men, the more I love my Shih Tzu'

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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4a. Re: Feeding schedule
Posted by: "Renate" renate.tideswell@gmail.com tideswell_renate
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:09 pm ((PDT))

Chris, does this apply to small dogs (not puppies, shih tzus under 10lbs)
When I was feeding kibble, I'm think they only really ate once a day in the
early afternoon (I left food out because the poodle cross is a day long
nibbler). I picked a rather bad time to convert to raw cause I've got a 3
hour drive each way tomorrow with a 3 hour lunch when I get there. And on
Monday I have 1-1/2 hours each way with a few hours there. This doesn't
happen often, but bad timing it's just a few days in. And last night wasn't
good. Both tzu's messed in the night and the poodle cross was practically
crossing his legs he was really eager to get out. I fed them just once
today, this morning, hoping to improve on this performance. Can I just feed
once , each of tomorrow and Monday before I leave? The poodle cross is 10yo
and the tzus are all about a year and a half. Am I worrying too much, being
paranoid? Thanks
Renate

On 9/21/07, costrowski75 <Chriso75@aol.com> wrote:
>
> "abeautiful3" <abeautiful3@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > One thing that I am concerned about is their feeding schedule when I
> > feed them kibble I would feed them early in the morning before I would
> > have to leave for work.
> *****
> Strict feeding schedules are frequently more detrimental than
> beneficial. You may need a feeding schedule to get your pre-job chores
> done, but your dogs do not need to be feed by the clock. I recommend
> you take the clock out of your feeding plans.
>
> I recommend you feed them when you have time to do it properly and
> don't beat yourself up about it. If that means at night, fine and
> dandy. If that means feeding "easy" food M-F and saving the big,
> complicated, engrossing meals for the weekend, fine and dandy.
>
> It's okay to mix up meals, it's okay to feed erratically, it's okay to
> have a thoroughly untidy meal plan. Once your dogs' brains get used to
> more random meals, their digestive systems will acclimate as well.
> Chris O
>
>
>

--
Renate
'The more I learn about men, the more I love my Shih Tzu'

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
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4b. Re: Feeding schedule
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:44 pm ((PDT))

Renate <renate.tideswell@...> wrote:
>
> Chris, does this apply to small dogs (not puppies, shih tzus under
10lbs)
*****
It might be necessary to feed very small dogs several times a day if
you find that fewer feeding screw up their sugar levels. I have
heard this can happen, I have also heard that it doesn't have to
happen; I suspect it's a combination of what the human expects and
how the dog acclimates to the diet. For now two meals a day might be
optimal; later perhaps you can feed once a day. I don't have small
dogs so I have no experience to refer to. I feed my 10 pound cat
twice a day.

>I fed them just once
> today, this morning, hoping to improve on this performance. Can I
just feed
> once , each of tomorrow and Monday before I leave?
*****
I don't know that I can answer that, since you've so little history
to work with. If I were in your situation, I'd feed once in the AM,
then again when I got home. And I would leave the dogs in a set up
that would sustain little damage if a digestive upset were to
happen. And I'd clean it up when I got home. That's what I'd do.

IMO, cleaning up a disgusting mess would be easier to look forward to
than not knowing if one meal a day was the best option. But because
I really can't speak with any confidence about small dogs, let's hope
some small dog experts speak up!
Chris O

Messages in this topic (7)
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4c. Re: Feeding schedule
Posted by: "Renate" renate.tideswell@gmail.com tideswell_renate
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:50 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

OK, thanks. That's fair enough. They'll just have to sleep somewhere not
in my room (the bedrooms in this house are carpeted but the rest of the
house isn't - though one of them did go to the ensuite bathroom ), cause my
house is up for sale and there's an open house Tues morning, thurs morning
and Sat morning. It's going to be traumatic enough that I come back
tomorrow with yet another rescue. There really are jealousy issues ;-)
They're getting used to these dogs coming and going, but there really are
pack issues. especially when the rescues start to 'get it together' and
become dogs again. That's why only my 2 tzus are allowed in the bedroom, so
I don't know what locking them out again will do to them. But I know that's
beyond this list
Renate

On 9/22/07, costrowski75 <Chriso75@aol.com> wrote:
>
> Renate <renate.tideswell@...> wrote:
> >
> > Chris, does this apply to small dogs (not puppies, shih tzus under
> 10lbs)
> *****
> It might be necessary to feed very small dogs several times a day if
> you find that fewer feeding screw up their sugar levels. I have
> heard this can happen, I have also heard that it doesn't have to
> happen; I suspect it's a combination of what the human expects and
> how the dog acclimates to the diet. For now two meals a day might be
> optimal; later perhaps you can feed once a day. I don't have small
> dogs so I have no experience to refer to. I feed my 10 pound cat
> twice a day.
>
> >I fed them just once
> > today, this morning, hoping to improve on this performance. Can I
> just feed
> > once , each of tomorrow and Monday before I leave?
> *****
> I don't know that I can answer that, since you've so little history
> to work with. If I were in your situation, I'd feed once in the AM,
> then again when I got home. And I would leave the dogs in a set up
> that would sustain little damage if a digestive upset were to
> happen. And I'd clean it up when I got home. That's what I'd do.
>
> IMO, cleaning up a disgusting mess would be easier to look forward to
> than not knowing if one meal a day was the best option. But because
> I really can't speak with any confidence about small dogs, let's hope
> some small dog experts speak up!
> Chris O
>
>
>

--
Renate
'The more I learn about men, the more I love my Shih Tzu'

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
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4d. Re: Feeding schedule
Posted by: "lar07911" lar07911@yahoo.com lar07911
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:38 pm ((PDT))

But because
> I really can't speak with any confidence about small dogs, let's hope
> some small dog experts speak up!

Hi,
I have two small dogs that have been on raw for about 4 weeks now, so
I am no means an expert. I have tried feeding only one large meal at
random times and it hasn't worked well for my little ones...especially
my 17lb girl who is quite active. My 25lb one seems to handle it much
better, but sometimes I will still find bile in his crate.

I feed two times a day. One meal being quite small and the other
being their big meal. I alternate when their larger meal occurs, but
I am a college student and random timing is more difficult. Maybe I
just gave up too soon?

Also, when my dogs were on kibble my girl would throw up bile if she
hadn't eaten enough. She is VERY active, so I am not sure if that has
anything to do with it. She is naturally super lean too. Raw was my
answer to finally putting weight on her.

I hope this helps!

Laura

Messages in this topic (7)
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5a. Re: Why is my Beagle so disgusting?
Posted by: "cleone4100@aol.com" cleone4100@aol.com cleone4100
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:09 pm ((PDT))

If you read about coyotes and wolves, they often leave roadside kills for
several days or more prior to eating them. As disgusting as it sounds, the
process of decomposition makes the meat more tender and easier to chew and I
would guess, digest. Their digestive systems can handle the bacteria that our
systems can't. So when I see my dogs eating old rabbit carcasses left by coyotes
or hawks or owls, I don't totally freak out, but its still gross! Carey

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

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Messages in this topic (4)
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5b. Re: Why is my Beagle so disgusting?
Posted by: "steph.sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:35 pm ((PDT))

LOL, I was walking mine a few days ago, and we came upon a raccoon
that had been hit by a car the night before and was currently
decomposing on the side of the road, and I really had to pull on my
pit's leash to keep her moving. She wanted that kill!! It was
totally smelly, but both of them were much more interested in it now
than they ever were in dead things when I fed them kibble. If it
contains meat in any condition, they are all about it!

-Steph
Scarlet, Lucy and Minkey (the kitty)

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, cleone4100@... wrote:
>
> If you read about coyotes and wolves, they often leave roadside
kills for
> several days or more prior to eating them. As disgusting as it
sounds, the
> process of decomposition makes the meat more tender and easier to
chew and I
> would guess, digest. Their digestive systems can handle the
bacteria that our
> systems can't. So when I see my dogs eating old rabbit carcasses
left by coyotes
> or hawks or owls, I don't totally freak out, but its still gross!
Carey
>

Messages in this topic (4)
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6a. new to raw need help
Posted by: "abeautiful3" abeautiful3@yahoo.com abeautiful3
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:10 pm ((PDT))

I started the dogs on raw this week and my puppy has developed
diarrhea I have only give her one chicken leg at a feeding.

The other dogs seem to tolerate the raw chicken pretty good although I
see some bone in the poop.

I am concerned about the diarrhea

Arlene

Messages in this topic (4)
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6b. Re: new to raw need help
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:01 pm ((PDT))

>>> started the dogs on raw this week and my puppy has developed
diarrhea I have only give her one chicken leg at a feeding<<<

My guess is that your puppy's system hasn't adjusted to the RAW meat yet, it
takes time. The group will probably ask you are feeding him just chicken,
have you given organs, they will cause diarrhea. With diarrhea you feed
more bone...did they give you the percentages? 80% meat, 10% organ and 10%
bone...you want to feed 2 - 3 % of their ESTIMATED adult weight. How many
times are you feeding? More answers will be on the way...

Hang in there,
Brandi
Bartlesville,OK

On 9/22/07, abeautiful3 <abeautiful3@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I started the dogs on raw this week and my puppy has developed
> diarrhea I have only give her one chicken leg at a feeding.
>
> The other dogs seem to tolerate the raw chicken pretty good although I
> see some bone in the poop.
>
> I am concerned about the diarrhea
>
> Arlene
>
>
>

--
Brandi
Bartlesville, Ok
www.obediencetrainingclubofbartlesville.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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6c. Re: new to raw need help
Posted by: "Arlene Fell" abeautiful3@yahoo.com abeautiful3
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:47 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

Hi Brandi
I have not feed them organs yet I thought that I needed to wait a couple of weeks for them to get used to the chicken. And I am feeding them twice a day.

Brandi Bryant <bbryant573@gmail.com> wrote: >>> started the dogs on raw this week and my puppy has developed
diarrhea I have only give her one chicken leg at a feeding<<<

My guess is that your puppy's system hasn't adjusted to the RAW meat yet, it
takes time. The group will probably ask you are feeding him just chicken,
have you given organs, they will cause diarrhea. With diarrhea you feed
more bone...did they give you the percentages? 80% meat, 10% organ and 10%
bone...you want to feed 2 - 3 % of their ESTIMATED adult weight. How many
times are you feeding? More answers will be on the way...

Hang in there,
Brandi
Bartlesville,OK

On 9/22/07, abeautiful3 <abeautiful3@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I started the dogs on raw this week and my puppy has developed
> diarrhea I have only give her one chicken leg at a feeding.
>
> The other dogs seem to tolerate the raw chicken pretty good although I
> see some bone in the poop.
>
> I am concerned about the diarrhea
>
> Arlene
>
>
>

--
Brandi
Bartlesville, Ok
www.obediencetrainingclubofbartlesville.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Messages in this topic (4)
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6d. Re: new to raw need help
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:36 pm ((PDT))

>>>I have not feed them organs yet I thought that I needed to wait a couple
of weeks for them to get used to the chicken. And I am feeding them twice a
day.<<<

Arlene, my guess would be that your puppy just not use to the chicken yet -
what kind of dog, what exactly are you feeding thighs, backs, breast
etc......you can feed all part of the chicken - I get whole chickens and cut
them up...my GS puppy is a gulper so I have to feed her bigger chucks she's
about 6 months old and she gets a half of a chicken by herself....

Brandi
Bartlesville

Messages in this topic (4)
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7a. Re: HELP PLEASE? AVOCADO PIT :(((
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:01 pm ((PDT))

On Sep 22, 2007, at 1:21 PM, Cdandp2@aol.com wrote:

> Spencer swallowed an avocado pit in the park today before I could
> get it
> from him....sigh. Everything I looked up says "toxic" "poison"
> damage to
> heart/lungs (the guy already has heartworms in there...sigh).
>
> PLEASE if anyone has any info/suggestions/etc to calm me down
> please send
> them along. I hope this will get through. I don't know where else
> to turn for
> advice/help.
>
> Carol for Spencer
>
> Also for everyone's information, I guess the thing in urgan parks
> these days
> is for people to consume whole avocados and then just toss the skin
> and pit
> on the ground rather than in the trash bin which, BTW, was only 2
> feet away
> !!!!!!*&*(^&%$#@#$)!!!!!!!!!

My worry would be that it's small enough to pass. I don't think
there's any way his enzymes will be able to break this thing down
enough to worry about poisoning. I went and read everything, too, and
what I'm getting is that it has been leaves, fed in quantity, which
have caused most of the reported problems, and those not in dogs but
in horses, or birds, or cats. Although Persin, as a plant lectin, is
found in all parts of the plant, as with Belladonna in the
Solanaceae, there is a huge variation in tolerance and in the amounts
found in different places in the plant. I would venture to say that
in actuality there is probably as much toxin in one pit as there is
in the average potato or tomato.

Was this a big one, and did he chew it up? I'd feed him lots, to
encourage motility to push it through fast.

I really think there are very few toxins out there which do not
affect us and the dogs about equally. If they are more likely to show
symptoms, perhaps we are either more habituated to certain poisons in
our food, or less aware of the results as symptomatic. The poor
animals get treated so terribly - who would feed avocado branches to
his horse? And yet folks do. Just as folks worry about apple seeds or
apricot pits, I guess one can worry about avocado pits. But I really
do not think enough was ingested to do any harm.

That said, boy, you'd better let us know what's going on...

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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7b. Re: HELP PLEASE? AVOCADO PIT :(((
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:04 pm ((PDT))

Cdandp2@... wrote:
>
> Spencer swallowed an avocado pit in the park today before I could
get it
> from him....sigh. Everything I looked up says "toxic" "poison"
damage to
> heart/lungs (the guy already has heartworms in there...sigh).
>
> PLEASE if anyone has any info/suggestions/etc to calm me down
please send
> them along.
*****
I have read of too many dogs safely eating too many avocado pits to
recommend immediate panic. I've also read of dogs chowing down on
avocado leaves, which are also supposed to be dangerous, and yes,
even the skins.

My guess is a vet visit will tell you to keep an eye on Spencer and
if he shows discomfort to bring him back in. My guess is if he can
poop the thing out he's good to go. I'd be more concerned about that
than about toxicity, myself.

So keep an eye on Spencer and if he shows discomfort take him to the
vet.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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8. raw meaty bones.
Posted by: "paul.granitegallery" paul.granitegallery@yahoo.com paul.granitegallery
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:46 pm ((PDT))

My 5 lb, 10 week old Havanese swallowed a thigh bones without chewing.
Should I be concerned?

Paul

Messages in this topic (1)
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9a. I tried and raw is just not going to work.
Posted by: "one_sojourner_one" onesojourner@gmail.com one_sojourner_one
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:36 pm ((PDT))

Well we have offered our 4 month cairn pup chicken, beef, pork and
fish. He will eat beef and thats it. Unfortunately beef is pricey and
the bones are not good for a small dog. I start making some ground
beef recipes and kibble combo. I might look into some more exotic
animals like rabbits or goat but that is not going to be easy to find.
So I wont be able to keep a good supply on that stuff on hand. I can't
starve this growing guy until he eats so, I can't just let him skip
meals until he gets hungry enough to eat this stuff. He is a picky
eater and I am quickly running out of options.

-peter

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

9b. Re: I tried and raw is just not going to work.
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:47 pm ((PDT))

So what is going to work for this guy? You have a 4-month-old puppy who
won't eat kibble so you tried raw....in a week's time he has refused
chicken, beef, pork and fish. What other options do you have?

I think you need to stop catering to him....the more you worry, fret and
offer him new foods, the worse it's going to get.
Picky eaters are made, not born. You cannot let your dog dictate what he is
going to eat! Somewhere along the line you have got to take the upper hand,
give the guy some food and walk away. If he eats, fine...if not, that's
also fine. It's his choice! He will *not* starve himself.

We have discussed this often in the past. You might want to look back in
the archives about picky eaters....here's one to get you started....
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/132122

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "one_sojourner_one" <onesojourner@gmail.com>

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

9c. Re: I tried and raw is just not going to work.
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:54 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "one_sojourner_one"
<onesojourner@...> wrote:
>
> He is a picky
> eater and I am quickly running out of options.
>
> -peter

He is a pickey eater because you allow him to be.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. Help! Creative solutions req'd...
Posted by: "rachelerm" rachel@gosonic.ca rachelerm
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:29 pm ((PDT))

OK, here's the deal. In a couple of weeks we're going camping w/
another family and we're each bringing our puppies. (Ours - a 5 month
Collie-X - is currently fed raw twice a day. Theirs is k*****-fed.)
We're going for 10 days but the most complicating factor (in my mind)
is that we are crossing the border from Canada into the United States
and will not be allowed to bring any raw meat products across the
border. (We're heading to N. Carolina, and I know they have grocery
stores there, but I don't want to make this a huge issue as I am the
only strong proponent of feeding raw - dh already thinks it's too much
"work" for me.)

Any suggestions??

(I really am at a loss as to what to do...earlier this summer we were
at a cottage for a week without access to a fridge/freezer and we
tried some grain-free k***** stuff but that gave poor puppy the runs
(perhaps the change was too drastic). Then at the end of the summer I
was away for a week and left my brother with store-bought frozen
"patties" to simplify the whole process, but I felt bad that puppy
devoured his meal in 30 sec. flat and had nothing to chew/work on. I
suppose I could try and pick up something from a grocery store once
we're down there...if anyone has any tips for where to go in NC it'd
be greatly appreciated! We'll be in some state/national park (I'll
find out where exactly tomorrow...))

Any other border crossing experiences?

Many thanks,
Rachel
in Ontario, Canada

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

10b. Re: Help! Creative solutions req'd...
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:54 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "rachelerm" <rachel@...> wrote:
>
> OK, here's the deal. In a couple of weeks we're going camping w/
> another family and we're each bringing our puppies.
>
> Any suggestions??

I suggest you take a cooler just for your dog, find a Super Walmart
where you can get chicken quarters for about $.45 or so a pound in
10 pound packages. Get whatever amount you can, ice them down and
they should be good for most of the trip. It won't hurt your dog to
eat chicken only for a couple of weeks.

You could also buy some dehydrated stuff but if its pracical I
prefer the chicken quarters.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11. Need advice on weight loss for large mixed breed
Posted by: "cockatoos4" cockatoos4@yahoo.com cockatoos4
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:54 pm ((PDT))

I have researched the archives and e-mailed privately with a helpful
group member about the subject of weight loss, but, at the risk of
going over old ground, I wanted to write to the whole group to get more
advice about helping my 9-year-old mixed breed, JinJin (a Rotty cross),
lose weight.

I've been feeding her raw for a month. She's about 12-15 pounds
overweight, is arthritic, and has a torn left ACL. (She was starving
when I adopted her from our local RSPCA a little over a year ago, and
she put on weight faster than I realized.) She's on a low dose of
generic Rimadyl for the pain. She gets two walks a day, but her
activity level is otherwise pretty low.

I'm feeding her 2 percent of a target weight, which figures out to
about 1.7 lbs of food a day. I give her a wide variety of protein, all
of which she eats readily; I'm an American living in Australia until
next year, so I have easy access to low-fat kangaroo meat, one of her
favorites. I trim excess fat and skin off any meat I give her but am
careful about leaving a little bit on. Feeding her twice a day works
best for us right now. She hasn't lost any weight yet.

I'd be grateful for any advice about anything else I can try,
reassurance that I'm doing the right thing, or how long I can expect to
wait before I start seeing results. If this post is more appropriate
for the Raw Health group, please let me know and I'll post it there.

Thanks,
Gemma

Messages in this topic (1)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12058

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. the myth about egg yolks
From: rigleyman@aol.com
1b. Re: the myth about egg yolks
From: anjumdanielle
1c. Re: the myth about egg yolks
From: Sandee Lee

2a. Re: Doxie coming home from knee surgery
From: Pam Staley
2b. Re: Doxie coming home from knee surgery
From: costrowski75

3a. new member question
From: rawnewfie
3b. Re: new member question
From: costrowski75
3c. Re: new member question
From: Giselle

4a. Re: Please Explain
From: costrowski75
4b. Re: Please Explain
From: Giselle

5a. What Easy to Get Meaty Bones will Really Clean my BIG Dog's Canine T
From: melanieabrams
5b. Re: What Easy to Get Meaty Bones will Really Clean my BIG Dog's Cani
From: costrowski75
5c. Re: What Easy to Get Meaty Bones will Really Clean my BIG Dog's Cani
From: Trisha
5d. Re: What Easy to Get Meaty Bones will Really Clean my BIG Dog's Cani
From: steph.sorensen

6a. I have a question...
From: Cindy Marabito
6b. Re: I have a question...
From: Giselle

7a. Bone shards in cat vomit
From: purvisp
7b. Re: Bone shards in cat vomit
From: Giselle

8. raw salmon
From: T. S.

9. Places to feed inside
From: cleone4100@aol.com

10. New To the group
From: jerseykev@aol.com

11a. Re: Just moved to raw
From: Kristin

12a. Why is my Beagle so disgusting?
From: never_connected
12b. Re: Why is my Beagle so disgusting?
From: woofwoofgrrl

13. HELP PLEASE? AVOCADO PIT :(((
From: Cdandp2@aol.com

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. the myth about egg yolks
Posted by: "rigleyman@aol.com" rigleyman@aol.com rigleyman
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:38 am ((PDT))

I saw on another list that someone believes the egg white destroys the vit B
in the egg yolk. She feels the whole egg is nicely balanced in general but
she specifically wants extra vit B and so tosses the egg white. Does anyone
have any DOCUMENTATION that might point to this being exaggerated? Is there
any truth to it? I've never heard of it for just one egg.

Judy

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: the myth about egg yolks
Posted by: "anjumdanielle" anjumdanielle@yahoo.com anjumdanielle
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:51 am ((PDT))

Judy - here you go:

http://www.aeb.org/LearnMore/Eggcyclopedia/B.htm#biotin

Biotin

One of the B vitamins which plays an important role in cell
metabolism and the utilization of fats, proteins and carbohydrates.
Biotin is present in many foods including egg yolk and is synthesized
by the body. Avidin, one of the egg proteins, can combine with biotin
and make it unavailable. However, *** a human would have to eat 24
raw egg whites a day for biotin to be inhibited by avidin ***. Heat
inactivates the avidin and most eggs are served cooked. -see Avidin

HTH - Anjum

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, rigleyman@... wrote:
Does anyone have any DOCUMENTATION that might point to this being
exaggerated? Is there any truth to it? I've never heard of it for
just one egg.
>
> Judy

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: the myth about egg yolks
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:53 am ((PDT))

Biotin

One of the B vitamins which plays an important role in cell
metabolism and the utilization of fats, proteins and carbohydrates.
Biotin is present in many foods including egg yolk and is synthesized
by the body. Avidin, one of the egg proteins, can combine with biotin
and make it unavailable. However, a human would have to eat 24 raw
egg whites a day for biotin to be inhibited by avidin. Heat
inactivates the avidin and most eggs are served cooked. -see Avidin

from: http://www.aeb.org/LearnMore/Eggcyclopedia/B.htm

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: <rigleyman@aol.com>

> I saw on another list that someone believes the egg white destroys the
vit B
> in the egg yolk. She feels the whole egg is nicely balanced in general
but
> she specifically wants extra vit B and so tosses the egg white. Does
anyone
> have any DOCUMENTATION that might point to this being exaggerated? Is
there
> any truth to it? I've never heard of it for just one egg.

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Doxie coming home from knee surgery
Posted by: "Pam Staley" pam@tlcnaturally.com mogalone2001
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:08 am ((PDT))

thanks so much for giving me some words of wisdom :-) .. just brought
him home a few minutes and he's already trying to chew on the cast -
it looks soooo uncomfortable!! and there are a few stitches that are
exposed so I'm sure he'll chew on them next.. the vet said everything
went well and while it did, doxies have funky little legs so while
they usually don't have to cast/wrap a leg after they put a pin in,
they do on these little guys..so he's in double wrap :-) ... I've got
him confined to a medium size cage with his blankie and his
'baby' (he carries around a little stuffed dog..I know I know..he's
so spoiled!) gave him some water - he was SOOOO thirsty...and then
proceeded to chew on the tape on the cast...so I said chew on this
and gave him a chicken back .. wish I would've read your note first!!
Will mushy up his next meal tomorrow... again, thanks for the
shoulder :-)

Pam
>
> I don't see any reason to stop feeding raw; why feed a recovering
> sicky dog unhealthy food? Makes no sense to me. I'm sure there
are
> other recovery issues to consider but none of them requires a
change
> from raw.
>
> Chris o
>

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: Doxie coming home from knee surgery
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:30 am ((PDT))

"Pam Staley" <pam@...> wrote:
.and then
> proceeded to chew on the tape on the cast...so I said chew on this
> and gave him a chicken back .. wish I would've read your note first!!
> Will mushy up his next meal tomorrow...
*****
Pam, if there is no reason to mush his meals, don't. If the vet didn't
tell you to be careful with his throat and he's not rasping and
hacking, seems like whole food is still best.

And if you weren't given any specific advice about his post-op meds,
then that too would indicate that whole food is still best.

Sounds like a good chew is what he needs to take his mind off his cast.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. new member question
Posted by: "rawnewfie" rawnewfie@yahoo.com rawnewfie
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:12 am ((PDT))

I have been reading alot and I am convinced. I have a
ten year old retriever that hasd suffered for a long
time on kibble. Aural hematomas, raw chewed feet, etc...
In three weeks our baby newfoundland
will arrive we live in the deep south of the United
States (New Orleans) fresh meat and fish is not a
problem. I have two questions though.
1. Are there any types of grasses or plants that I
should maybe grow in my garden to promote good
digestion? We live in a pretty urban area.

2. What about say a feeder rat, or mice from the pet
store? We have lots of nutria in New Orleans as well.
Are their any limits. Fur and all?

3. Oh one more thing, Are my dogs going to eat outside
forever? Any good ideas for keeping the kitchen floor
from becoming a disaster everyday? as if I wont be
covered in black fur forever anyway.
Thanks,
Todd

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: new member question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:47 am ((PDT))

"rawnewfie" <rawnewfie@...> wrote:

> 1. Are there any types of grasses or plants that I
> should maybe grow in my garden to promote good
> digestion? We live in a pretty urban area.
*****
Dogs don't need veggies for digestion. Feed a good raw diet--body part
variety as well as protein variety--and digestion will follow
appropriately. You can plant some grass for whatever purposes your
dogs choose for it but that's not required nor even suggested. Just
keep the grass natural.

> 2. What about say a feeder rat, or mice from the pet
> store? We have lots of nutria in New Orleans as well.
> Are their any limits. Fur and all?
*****
I think Nutria is a grand idea. Since they're wild, they're eating a
good natural diet which will be healthier for your dogs. Since they're
a nuisance, you should be able to get them fresh without much
bureaucratic hassle. Since they're herbivores, you don't even have to
consider the "do I feed carnivores to a carnivore?" issue.

I think Nutria is a better choice than formula-fed rats and mice.
Humans can eat Nutria, so can your dogs.

> 3. Oh one more thing, Are my dogs going to eat outside
> forever?
*****
Up to you. Here in northern California, my dogs eat outside most of
the time; although I do feed young puppies and unwell ones inside as
needed. When I feed inside, I put down a towel or a cheap vinyl
tablecloth if the meal is an RMB or something complicated. For bowl
food, I just plunk down the bowl and that's that.

Any good ideas for keeping the kitchen floor
> from becoming a disaster everyday?
*****
Most of the time the dogs will tidy up after themselves. When they
miss a spot, a spritz with vinegar or vinegar water or or hydrogen
peroxide works just fine. You do not have to clean compulsively!
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

3c. Re: new member question
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:31 am ((PDT))

Hi, Todd!
What Chris said! ^_^

Have you been reading on *this* list?

You can get some mighty funny advice 'out there'......

Just in case, here's a link to my recommendations on how to start raw
feeding;
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374
archives post # 141374

And a link to what I think about where to feed;
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141648
archives post # 141648

A couple other helpful links;

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes

Oooh, a Newfy pup! Great learning curve you'll experience, there. ; )
Be prepared for your pup to arrive home weighing upwards of 20lbs, if
about 8-10 weeks old. And to rapidly get bigger 'n stronger than you,
but NOT more coordinated or more self controlled. Newfs stay puppyish
well past their 2nd year, so don't be fooled by the 'bear in a china
shop' impersonation, it just takes them longer to mature than smaller
breeds.
Oh, and its not just black fur you'll be coated in; most Newfs look
like they've swallowed sneakers, with the laces hanging out either
side of their mouth. And there's the perpetual swamp at the water bowl
- giving themselves bloody noses trying to run under furniture that
they could fit under just yesterday - wiping drool off your friends
and acquaintances with the towel you've suddenly started carrying
everywhere with you - dust puppies bigger than some dogs, rolling
around out in the open - finding Newfy goobers; dried spit globs with
black hair in them on your walls, ceiling, TV screen..... heh heh
You're in for some fun!

Feeder rats 'n mice could get VERY expensive. Newf pups eat a lot! See
Lis' List for ways to creatively source cheap or free meats. Its
listed in the first link in the above text.
TC, let us know how ya'll progress!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> I have been reading a lot and I am convinced. I have a
> ten year old retriever that had suffered for a long
> time on kibble.
<snip>
> 1. Are there any types of grasses or plants that I
> should maybe grow in my garden to promote good
> digestion?
<snip>
> 2. What about say a feeder rat, or mice from the pet
> store?
<snip>
> 3. Oh one more thing, Are my dogs going to eat outside
> forever?
<snip>
> Thanks,
> Todd
>

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: Please Explain
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:19 am ((PDT))

"Monica A. Joy" <imajoy@...> wrote:
>
> Chris O.
>
> What is a big, complicated, engrossing meal exactly?
*****
Exactly what Giselle wrote is as exactly as I could ever get!
Thank you, Giselle.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: Please Explain
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:32 am ((PDT))

NPs, Chris, it was a pleasure! ^_^
G

> "Monica A. Joy" <imajoy@> wrote:
> >
> > Chris O.
> >
> > What is a big, complicated, engrossing meal exactly?
> *****
> Exactly what Giselle wrote is as exactly as I could ever get!
> Thank you, Giselle.
> Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. What Easy to Get Meaty Bones will Really Clean my BIG Dog's Canine T
Posted by: "melanieabrams" melanieabrams@yahoo.com melanieabrams
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:41 am ((PDT))

My husband was noticing yesterday that our 2 year old, 70 lb total
mutt has gunk (tartar?) on her canines. I read a post here a week or
so ago about the dogs needing to really rip and tear to give the
canine teeth a workout. Are there any specific meaty bones you can
recommend that will do this? She works at her chicken halves, but I
don't think this is doing it. Easy to get stuff would be appreciated;
I can order more obscure things from the co op but not until next month.

Thanks!
Melanie, and Clio the dog

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: What Easy to Get Meaty Bones will Really Clean my BIG Dog's Cani
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:56 am ((PDT))

"melanieabrams" <melanieabrams@...> wrote:
Are there any specific meaty bones you can
> recommend that will do this?
*****
Meaty bones are less likely to do than trick than meaty bodies or meaty
body parts. You could try a whole chicken; at 70lb she can handle a
big-meal day followed by a no-meal or small-meal day. Or you can try a
whole cornish game hen but my guess is that'll take her all of five
minutes to eat.

Try a pork shoulder roast with skin on. That skin is tough! See if
you can get an uncut beef shank. The bone is virtualy inedible but
she'll have to struggle to get the meat off it. Or try a turkey
quarter. Whole, furry rabbit is excellent, if you can get it. Note,
frozen meat hunks are not likely to clean the canines. Frozen food is
generally sliced off with the molars; canines need meat they can grab
onto.

Unless you belong to a broad-minded coop, most coop buys are not about
seriously meaty body parts. You may have to rely on local resources.
Chris Ostrowski

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

5c. Re: What Easy to Get Meaty Bones will Really Clean my BIG Dog's Cani
Posted by: "Trisha" LTLAPPLESEEDS@YAHOO.COM ltlappleseeds
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:00 am ((PDT))

Hi Melanie,

My big guy gets pork roasts, or even better are the whole legs. The skin on the leg is rather tough and he has to really work at it.The roast at the store doesn't have any skin, but its more work than chicken.

Trisha

melanieabrams <melanieabrams@yahoo.com> wrote:
..... She works at her chicken halves, but I
don't think this is doing it. Easy to get stuff would be appreciated;
I can order more obscure things from the co op but not until next month.

Thanks!
Melanie, and Clio the dog

---------------------------------
Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

5d. Re: What Easy to Get Meaty Bones will Really Clean my BIG Dog's Cani
Posted by: "steph.sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:40 pm ((PDT))

I have only been doing this for three weeks, but after the first week,
I started feeding my two girls (a pit bull and a lab) things like a
rack of beef ribs, a whole pork shoulder apiece, bone-in venison
shoulders and different cuts that were available, as well as the
chicken.

I just noticed this morning that every single bit of plaque that had
started to show on my pit's teeth (she just turned 3) is completely
gone! I think it is the variety of bone that does it. Chicken bones
are softer, so they alone may not be enough to scrape some really
serious plaque. But pork and beef bones require a lot more work to
break down (my girls don't eat the beef rib bones. They clean the meat
off better than ants though! I was impressed!).

I really think the secret is in the variety giving them different
strengths of bones to work on. They seem to really love pork and
venison meat and bones. Those will definitely be regular feedings.

Hope that helps!

-Steph
Scarlet, Lucy, and Minkey (the kitty)

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "melanieabrams" <melanieabrams@...>
wrote:
>
> My husband was noticing yesterday that our 2 year old, 70 lb total
> mutt has gunk (tartar?) on her canines. I read a post here a week or
> so ago about the dogs needing to really rip and tear to give the
> canine teeth a workout. Are there any specific meaty bones you can
> recommend that will do this? She works at her chicken halves, but I
> don't think this is doing it. Easy to get stuff would be appreciated;
> I can order more obscure things from the co op but not until next
month.
>
> Thanks!
> Melanie, and Clio the dog
>

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. I have a question...
Posted by: "Cindy Marabito" doggirl1@earthlink.net rowdycowgirl50
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:09 am ((PDT))

Buddy, my 17 year old cat recently has been hacking..it's a dry hack
and complicated by his IBD in which he vomits from time to time. We
are treating homeopathically for this and he's showing improvement
regarding the vomiting...however, now, Candy, my 16 year old is
hacking...the best example I can offer is years ago, Roy's (my 18
year old) brother Ray, used to hack like that and was diagnosed with
asthma. I mentioned this to my homeopathic vet and he said it would
be really weird for all of the cats to suddenly come down with asthma.

Have any of you ever had this experience? I'm fishing for ideas.
Thank you so much, Cindy

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

6b. Re: I have a question...
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:50 am ((PDT))

Hi, Cindy!
I almost said kennel cough, but then realized you had cats!

Its most likely to be fur balls. Try a 1/2 teaspoon of oil; Salmon or
Fish Body oil, or plain old olive oil will do the trick, too. You can
give it for a few days in a row, until you see a furry poop. Or a
'present' on your new couch or comforter. : )
http://timberwolforganics.com/pet-omega-oils

http://www.icelandpure.com/salmon_oil.htm

http://www.grizzlypetproducts.com/salmon_oil/salmon_oil.html

I've never tried it for this, but Slippery Elm Bark Powder might do
the trick. It soothes irritated digestive tracts by coating them in
mucous, so it should work on getting hairballs to pass, too.
"SEBP is âœused to treat diarrhea, constipation, enteritis, colitis &
irritations of the stomach. Used to soothe, protect & lubricate mucous
membranes. Also, used to relieve the discomforts of kennel cough &
other types of bronchitis.â
http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/supplements.htm
I use 1 tsp of SEBP to one ounce of ground or chopped chicken. Mix
together and shape enough meatballs for several days doses, and freeze
them. They thaw quickly. I'd shape meatballs into 1/2 ounce portions,
and feed one 3-4 times a day. Decrease the meal size temporarily, and
feed them before a meal. You can also just sprinkle on their food, or
in broth instead, if they will eat/drink it this way. You will often
see an increase in mucousy poops with SEBP, this is part of the way it
soothes the digestive system, and the dogâ™s body will do the same
sometimes even without SEBP."
TC, let us know what turns up.
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

p.s. - have you tried smaller, more frequent meals for your IBD guy?
Leaner meats 'n trimming off visible fat 'n some skin can help. Warm
food (not straight out of the fridge) helps some, too. SEBP is great
for IBD flares.

> Buddy, my 17 year old cat recently has been hacking. It's a dry hack
> and complicated by his IBD in which he vomits from time to time. <snip>
> Have any of you ever had this experience? I'm fishing for ideas.
> Thank you so much, Cindy

Messages in this topic (2)
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7a. Bone shards in cat vomit
Posted by: "purvisp" purvisp@yahoo.com purvisp
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:50 am ((PDT))

I've been feeding my cat ground whole raw for five months. I switched
to whole prey about two weeks ago and I'm getting a pile of yellowish
foam with a fur ball the size of my (small) thumb and a few bone
shards every other day or so.

I've been searching messages here in the group, but I can't understand
why bone shards in vomit are NOT a cause for concern.

Please enlighten me.

Thanks,
Patricia

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

7b. Re: Bone shards in cat vomit
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:38 am ((PDT))

Hi, Patricia!
Because you've been doing the cat's work, by feeding
ground meat 'n bones, her digestive system hasn't been able to adjust
to processing whole meats 'n bone chunks.

Its not a problem;
1) because you're seeing that the cat's digestive system is doing its
job - the shards are coming up because they've sat in the tummy for
long enough, and her body is saying "Too much right now, no thanks!"
Just because its inconvenient for us, doesn't mean its a wrong thing
for the cat to do.

2) because, once your cat's body adjusts to digesting real meat 'n
bones, not ground, it will do a better job of processing it. You will
gradually see less and less BBV. (Bones 'n Bile Vomit)

3) furballs often are horked up, not passed in the stool. Bones that
aren't digested yet will come up at the same time. Are your cats
shedding more right now? It could be seasonal, or they could be
shucking their old coats 'n growing new, 'raw fed' coats. Increased
grooming due to increased shedding - that might explain the frequency
of the horked up furballs with BBV. you might want to brush them more
frequently for awhile, to help get all that 'old coat' out faster.

Also, depending on the whole prey you're feeding, some of the bones
may be a little too hard for your cat's digestive system to handle.
Cats are smaller carnivores, after all. And their traditional prey
would provide small meals with easy to digest bones, and necessitate
frequent meals, which is what cat's have evolved to need.

Have you tried species appropriate sized prey for cats? Mice, even
small rats maybe, small rabbits or kit culls, chicks, quail are prey
one would expect that a cat could catch on its own. Small fish would
be appropriate, too.
http://www.prey4pets.com/servlet/StoreFront

http://www.hare-today.com/index.php?cPath=23

http://www.rodentpro.com/products.asp

A bunch of interesting stuff I turned up about cats;
African Wildcat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felis_silvestris_lybica

About 10,000 years ago, some Felis silvestris lybica individuals were
domesticated in the Middle East. Modern domestic cats are derived from
at least five "Mitochondrial Eves". None of the other subspecies of
Felis silvestris contributed to the domestic breed, and many of those
subspecies own mtDNA is being swamped by interbreeding with feral cats.

The African Wildcat eats primarily mice, rats and other small mammals.
If the situation permits, it also eats birds, reptiles, amphibians and
insects.

Cat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat

A skilled predator, the cat is known to hunt over 1,000 species for food.

Cats can be fussy eaters, possibly due to the mutation which caused
their ancestor to lose the ability to taste sugars. Unlike most
mammals, cats can voluntarily starve themselves indefinitely despite
being presented with palatable food, even a food which they had
previously readily consumed. This can happen when the vomeronasal or
Jacobson's organ becomes accustomed to a specific food, or if the cats
are spoiled by their owners, in which case the cat will reject any
food that does not fit the pattern it is expecting. It is also known
for cats to merely become bored with their given food and decide to
stop eating until they are tempted into eating again. Although it is
extremely rare for a cat to deliberately starve itself to the point of
injury, the sudden loss of weight can cause a fatal condition called
hepatic lipidosis, a liver dysfunction which causes pathological loss
of appetite and reinforces the starvation, which can lead to death
within as little as 48 hours.

http://www.blakkatz.com/dryfood.html

The domestic cat's stomach, which is quite small, has two purposes. It
holds the food and it is not necessary to hold a lot of food because
the natural food of the cat is nutrient dense. Small wild cats hunt
more frequently than their larger cousins because their prey is smaller.

HTH, Patricia, it was fun for me! : )
TC and let us know how the cats are doing, from time to time.
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> I've been feeding my cat ground whole raw for five months. I switched
> to whole prey about two weeks ago and I'm getting a pile of yellowish
> foam with a fur ball the size of my (small) thumb and a few bone
> shards every other day or so.
>
> I've been searching messages here in the group, but I can't understand
> why bone shards in vomit are NOT a cause for concern.
>
> Please enlighten me.
>
> Thanks,
> Patricia
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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8. raw salmon
Posted by: "T. S." JoeTheLion1@yahoo.com joethelion1
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:39 pm ((PDT))

is it okay to feed raw salmon including the backbone?

t.s.
ensenada, mexico

Messages in this topic (1)
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9. Places to feed inside
Posted by: "cleone4100@aol.com" cleone4100@aol.com cleone4100
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:39 pm ((PDT))

Just thought I would throw this in, my dogs are trained to eat their bones
on one 'blanket', one for each dog, which I then throw in the washer when they
are done. I use doggie car blankets that have a smooth fabric on one side so
the food doesn't get stuck to it too much. Makes for easy clean-up and they
like having their special places to eat in peace. Carey

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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10. New To the group
Posted by: "jerseykev@aol.com" jerseykev@aol.com noblarneyzone
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:31 pm ((PDT))

Hello everyone.

I live on the Jersey Shore with my number one Mastiff "Baby Independence" -
Baby for short.

I am developing GuardiansByTheSea.com and need as much info on raw feeding
as I can get.

Baby is 4 1/2 months and I am much older.

Glad to be apart of the group.

Kevin & Baby

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Messages in this topic (1)
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11a. Re: Just moved to raw
Posted by: "Kristin" girlndocs@hotmail.com girlndocs
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:32 pm ((PDT))

Hi Nasser,

> if she is fed
> outside she will cover her food with sand and go. When fed indoors she
> tries to do the same thing of covering the food with sand but rubs her
> nose on the hard floor.

Zoe did the same thing for some time. Not only the "burying" (indoors, under
things like her crate blanket, her leash and the doormat) but the startled
nose rubbing as if to say "Hey! Food's not supposed to be wet!" and the
resigned "Oh, OK, if I gotta" eating.

She's been eating raw for about three weeks now and dives into her meals
with relish -- walks around hopefully with her nose in the air when I get
out a whole raw chicken.

So, you didn't say exactly how long you've been raw, but my guess is that
all of it will pass.

Kristin

Messages in this topic (2)
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12a. Why is my Beagle so disgusting?
Posted by: "never_connected" never_connected@yahoo.com never_connected
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:32 pm ((PDT))

Ok, it's bad enough he will stick his face under a kibble dog's butt
and eat her crap as she's going. (he doesn't eat his own crap or raw
dog crap) He'll try and eat duck and other huge bird crap at the park.

Then he eats rotting meat that's been left outside for days. Like a
good meaty chunk of beef with flies and bees all over it. Something
that got left outside because someone didn't finish a meal and he just
came across it. And this is a Beagle..why is he not hunting/sniffing
out the meat when it's still fresh anyway?

Today, my other dog threw up bile because I didn't feed him last
night. Guess who ate the bile?

Like what is wrong with this dog or what is he lacking nutritionally
to make him eat things like this? He's just....gross.

UGH.
Jen

Messages in this topic (2)
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12b. Re: Why is my Beagle so disgusting?
Posted by: "woofwoofgrrl" cmc4lists1@gastrounit.com woofwoofgrrl
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:08 pm ((PDT))

Congratulations you have a DOG!
All of the things you described are dogalicious behavior!

Think of it like a toddler eating a gummy bear off the sidewalk - it
won't hurt him and they think it tastes great, but it grosses you out!
Same thing. :)

You can do some training to deal with the poo-eating at the park by
training him to focus on you because *you* are the source for tasty
num-nums while at the park, although it won't cure it will make him less
likely to do it around you. The other stuff is really getting yourself
going on a prevention program - if it's not in the yard, he can't eat
it. I will stop talking training now before the ModSquad yells at me. :)

Christine

never_connected wrote:
>
>
> Ok, it's bad enough he will stick his face under a kibble dog's butt
> and eat her crap as she's going. (he doesn't eat his own crap or raw
> dog crap) He'll try and eat duck and other huge bird crap at the park.
>
> Then he eats rotting meat that's been left outside for days. Like a
> good meaty chunk of beef with flies and bees all over it. Something
> that got left outside because someone didn't finish a meal and he just
> came across it. And this is a Beagle..why is he not hunting/sniffing
> out the meat when it's still fresh anyway?
>
> Today, my other dog threw up bile because I didn't feed him last
> night. Guess who ate the bile?
>
> Like what is wrong with this dog or what is he lacking nutritionally
> to make him eat things like this? He's just....gross.
>
> UGH.
> Jen
>
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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13. HELP PLEASE? AVOCADO PIT :(((
Posted by: "Cdandp2@aol.com" Cdandp2@aol.com cdandp
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:33 pm ((PDT))

Spencer swallowed an avocado pit in the park today before I could get it
from him....sigh. Everything I looked up says "toxic" "poison" damage to
heart/lungs (the guy already has heartworms in there...sigh).

PLEASE if anyone has any info/suggestions/etc to calm me down please send
them along. I hope this will get through. I don't know where else to turn for
advice/help.

Carol for Spencer

Also for everyone's information, I guess the thing in urgan parks these days
is for people to consume whole avocados and then just toss the skin and pit
on the ground rather than in the trash bin which, BTW, was only 2 feet away
!!!!!!*&*(^&%$#@#$)!!!!!!!!!

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Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12057

There are 2 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: conversation at work.
From: steph.sorensen

2. Just moved to raw
From: nasseralkhalifa

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: conversation at work.
Posted by: "steph.sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:15 am ((PDT))

A couple of weeks ago, when I hit up the hunters in our office for
leftover game kills from last year, I actually had a co-worker come
into my office and plead with me not to feed my dogs bones, because
he used to be a vet tech and they got a pit bull in one time that had
recently died and when they opened him up for the autopsy, bones had
completely shredded his insides. Nothing was left but mush.

I asked him if the bones were raw or had been cooked, and he said he
didn't know. When I told him that raw bones didn't do that to an
animal, or the wolf would already be extinct, the conversation just
kinded petered out. I think he knew I wasn't changing my mind. Nice
to know he cares about my dogs though. :) I do too, that's why I'm
sticking with this! What really ticks me off is media sources
calling this a "fad diet" when people have been feeding this way for
decades.

-Steph
Scarlet, Lucy, and Minkey (the kitty)

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "DebiC" <dcole6@...> wrote:
>
> I had this conversation at work yesterday and thought you all could
relate to my frustration and desk head moment.
>
> I had an interesting/funny/sad discussion with one of my coworkers
the other day. Started out by talking about refrigerators.
>
> I said I keep my dog food in the one in the garage. When she asked
what kind of dog food, I told her meat. (She has Dalmatians as her
son is a fireman. I have Jack Russells.)
>
> What kind of meat?
>
> Beef, chicken, pork, fish when I can get it.
>
> Do I cook it?
>
> No.
>
> You feed it RAW!!
>
> Yep.
>
> Raw meat is not good for dogs. Do you give them bones too?
>
> Yep, raw bones.
>
> Raw meet is bad for dogs. It makes them mean. Bones will kill
them.
>
> Look, in the wild, coyotes wolves and foxes eat raw meat.
>
> But these are dogs and raw meat will make them sick.
>
> What's the difference between a German Shepherd and a coyote?
>
> One's a dog the other is a wild animal.
>
> I finally quit. She actually didn't see the comparison.
> I am now a bad person cause I feed my dogs what nature intended
them to eat. I give up.
>
> My horse Scarlet is fed hay and grass. She doesn't get grain at
all. I'm just plain evil.
>
> Debi Cole
>
> COLD NOSES AND WARM HEARTS
> http://www.geocities.com/jrtbook4me/COLD_NOSES.html
> A Pet Is A Lifetime Committment!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (3)
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________________________________________________________________________

2. Just moved to raw
Posted by: "nasseralkhalifa" nasseralkhalifa@yahoo.com nasseralkhalifa
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:16 am ((PDT))

I have a 7 year old Saluki that did not accept raw until she found
that there was nothing else that she will get offered. Kibble and Can
foods were out of the question. Since then her condition has improved
a lot. The only odd parts of it is she doesn't seem to eat it because
she likes it. Its more like that she has to. Also if she is fed
outside she will cover her food with sand and go. When fed indoors she
tries to do the same thing of covering the food with sand but rubs her
nose on the hard floor.

Is any of this normal?
Nasser

Messages in this topic (1)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12056

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. How much meat on bones?
From: Greg Falken
1b. Re: How much meat on bones?
From: cypressbunny
1c. Re: How much meat on bones?
From: costrowski75

2a. Re: New raw feeder
From: cleone4100@aol.com
2b. Re: New raw feeder
From: cleone4100@aol.com
2c. Re: New raw feeder
From: cleone4100@aol.com
2d. Re: New raw feeder
From: cypressbunny
2e. Re: New raw feeder
From: costrowski75
2f. Re: New raw feeder
From: Sandee Lee
2g. Re: New raw feeder
From: cypressbunny

3a. Re: Doxie coming home from knee surgery
From: costrowski75

4a. Re: Constipation??
From: costrowski75
4b. Re: Constipation??
From: Sandee Lee

5a. Re: Houston meat suppliers - Anyone have suggestions?
From: Denise Strother

6a. conversation at work.
From: DebiC
6b. Re: conversation at work.
From: Brandi Bryant

7a. Re: I think my puppy is allergic to chicken -getting desperate-
From: one_sojourner_one

8a. Re: All In...
From: Giselle
8b. Re: All In...
From: eyed_blue
8c. Re: All In...
From: MELISSA DANIELSON
8d. Re: All In...
From: Giselle

9a. Please Explain
From: Monica A. Joy
9b. Re: Please Explain
From: Giselle

10a. Re: New-- with Puppy and diarrhea
From: Giselle

11. Constipation / Update
From: Virginia Snider

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. How much meat on bones?
Posted by: "Greg Falken" yahoo@falken.name gfalken
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:20 pm ((PDT))

Hi,

I'm a little confused about what I'm reading in Work Wonders. In
Chapter 2, Dr. Lonsdale recommends, "turkey and checking backs and
frames after the meat has been removed for human consumption". I'm
also reading about people feeding chicken quarters, presumably with
all the meat intact.

We just brought home our one year old rescue Corgi and two packages of
chicken quarters. Each quarter is about the right weight for a daily
meal (a little under a pound). Should we just feed the whole thing?

Thanks in advance,
Greg

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: How much meat on bones?
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:25 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Falken" <yahoo@...> wrote:
>
> In Chapter 2, Dr. Lonsdale recommends, "turkey and checking backs
and frames after the meat has been removed

*** Backs/frames can be a cheap source of bone with some meat, but
by themselves they are too bony.

> I'm
> also reading about people feeding chicken quarters, presumably with
> all the meat intact.

*** Chicken quarters are fine to feed. Even better, the entire
chicken. If you find a cheap source of backs/frames, great, but you
should probably add some boneless meat. Every meal does not have to
have the perfect proportion of meat, bone, and organ, but over time,
bone should be around 15% of the total, organ should be around 10%
of the total (not including guts), and meat should make up the
majority of the diet.

> Each quarter is about the right weight for a daily
> meal (a little under a pound). Should we just feed the whole thing?

*** Yes.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: How much meat on bones?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:40 pm ((PDT))

"Greg Falken" <yahoo@...> wrote:
> I'm a little confused about what I'm reading in Work Wonders. In
> Chapter 2, Dr. Lonsdale recommends, "turkey and checking backs and
> frames after the meat has been removed for human consumption". I'm
> also reading about people feeding chicken quarters, presumably with
> all the meat intact.
*****
Our dogs need little more than 10% of their nutritional intake as
edible bone. That's not a lot of bone; even if you never actually
weigh or measure it, it's clearly not a big part of the menu. Our dogs
need lots and lots of meat--as much as 80% of their diet. Once you
look at the guidelines Ma Nature set out a LOOONNNG time ago, you
should be able to decide which is more appropriate: bones "after the
meat has been removed..." or chicken quarters "with all the meat
intact."

> > We just brought home our one year old rescue Corgi and two packages
of> chicken quarters. Each quarter is about the right weight for a daily
> meal (a little under a pound). Should we just feed the whole thing?
*****
Yes, absolutely. Chicken quarters carry quite a lot of bone; you do
not need to remove any meat.

To be fair (who? me? fair?), feeding scraped consumable bones is
tolerable if the rest of the menu is virtually awash in meat. Most
people feed more consumable bone than they need to feed, more than
their dogs need to eat. Nutritionally, you cannot go wrong feeding
meat.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: New raw feeder
Posted by: "cleone4100@aol.com" cleone4100@aol.com cleone4100
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:22 pm ((PDT))

Thanks Yassy, I guess I figured since they eat whatever they can find in our
yard (horse manure, rabbits, squirrels, rats, lizards etc.) I could just
give them whatever I found on sale at the grocery store. I will start now with
just chicken (I've got a lot of that) and proceed to other foods when I am
seeing firm stools. Carey

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Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: New raw feeder
Posted by: "cleone4100@aol.com" cleone4100@aol.com cleone4100
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:22 pm ((PDT))

Great, thank you for the info! I will simplify their dietand increase
quantity a little, and will start looking for slaughterhouse or other source for
internal organs. Was just giving cheese because I could get it cheap and they
love it. I will save it now for treats only. Carey

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________

2c. Re: New raw feeder
Posted by: "cleone4100@aol.com" cleone4100@aol.com cleone4100
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:22 pm ((PDT))

Oh, and on the eggs, I attended a Whole Pet Expo in SF about 5 years ago and
they said raw yolk was okay but raw white was not. And since I only eat the
white, it works out good, no waste! Carey

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________

2d. Re: New raw feeder
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:29 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, cleone4100@... wrote:
>
> Oh, and on the eggs, I attended a Whole Pet Expo in SF about 5 years
ago and
> they said raw yolk was okay but raw white was not.

*** Pfft. The whole raw egg is ok. The white contains avidin, which
binds biotin, but the yolk contains more than enough biotin to prevent
biotin deficiency. If you are eating the whites and have the yolks to
spare, it is fine to feed them to the dogs, but there is no reason not
to feed whole eggs to dogs.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________

2e. Re: New raw feeder
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:30 pm ((PDT))

Howard Salob <itiskismet1968@...> wrote:
>
> Try giving green tripe. It makes a big difference.
*****
Difference in what?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________

2f. Re: New raw feeder
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:35 pm ((PDT))

Nonsense! Eggs are perfect just as they come! Nature knows best! :)

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: <cleone4100@aol.com>

> Oh, and on the eggs, I attended a Whole Pet Expo in SF about 5 years ago
and
> they said raw yolk was okay but raw white was not. And since I only eat
the
> white, it works out good, no waste! Carey

Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________

2g. Re: New raw feeder
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:42 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cleone4100" <cleone4100@...>
wrote:
>
> Is a soft or runny stool normal?

*** It might be, for dogs new to raw, or meals that have no bone or
a
lot of organ.

> Once they have eaten, how long does it usually take for
> them to need to eliminate?

*** I usually feed gorge/fast style, which means I feed a huge meal,
and then don't feed for another couple of days. After a large meal,
it
is usually 6-8 hours before they need to go out. So, I usually feed
in
the morning or late in the evening.

*** Since you and your dogs are new to raw, give yourself and your
dogs some leeway during the adjustment period, until you learn what
they will do. Even though I've been feeding raw for years, one or
another of the dogs occasionally asks to go out in the middle of the
night. Annoying, but better than cleaning up the mess later. And
almost any inconvience is worth it considering the vast health
improvements that feeding raw brings.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Doxie coming home from knee surgery
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:51 pm ((PDT))

"Pam Staley" <pam@...> wrote:
Anyway - I'm wondering if there is any
> 'meat' that would be better for him during his recovery or should I
> just continue our raw diet once he gets home?
*****
Poor Benson, and poor (literally and figurately) you. I sooooo
understand. A huge bite no matter how you look at it. Feh.

IMO what could be potential worries are
--an irritated throat following entubation; that can be addressed by
feeding sloppy food for a few days.
--limited activity during recuperation; you might feed easy food that
requires no wrestling.
--medications that might constipate the patient; going easy on edible
bone and feeding more of that sloppy food can help.
--meds that might dull his appetite; don't worry unless the course of
medication is lengthy, in the meatime stuff he really likes and isn't
hard to eat (sloppy and easy) might tempt him.

I don't see any reason to stop feeding raw; why feed a recovering
sicky dog unhealthy food? Makes no sense to me. I'm sure there are
other recovery issues to consider but none of them requires a change
from raw.

Chris o

Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. Re: Constipation??
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:08 pm ((PDT))

"Virginia Snider" <vsnider@...> wrote:
>> He eats all his food and is on beef, chicken, duck gizzards and
chicken
> hearts. Problem is, all now he seems constipated. When I first
got him
> about a month ago he was on cheap crunchie and would go 4 x a day.
Then
> after raw started he went down to 2x and better formed. He hasn't
done
> anything in over 24 hours except a teenie dud that wasn't worth the
effort.
*****
How much bone is in these meals, how much meat? Lots of bone will
slow things down; lots of meat for a dog with a good digestion may
slow things down as well simply because so much is used and so little
is waste. Nothing for twenty fours doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

We really need to know more about his diet. What ALL did you feed
him prior to this lack of activity?

If you just can't stand not seeing stool, you can give him some liver
or some salmon oil or even olive oil to lube them tubes. But if he's
a happy fella and is drinking plenty, I think there's little to be
concerned about.

> Also, is there any reason he can't eat sweet potatoes?
*****
Hm, you mean other than the fact that raw they are not going to be
digested and cooked they aren't raw? Or other than the fact that
they aren't species appropriate food? Well, sweet potato is high
glycemic carbohydrate that your dog has no nutritional need for.

If you intend to feed SP to fix his stools, I suggest they aren't
broken (or at least you don't know that yet), so there's nothing to
fix. Later, if the kid really does need some assistance, a big old
dose of liver or fatty meat should clean him out.

Let us know, okay?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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4b. Re: Constipation??
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:10 pm ((PDT))

Virginia,

He sounds totally normal...and very cute! :) If he looks like he is
straining, you could add more meat, but once a day is perfectly fine when
being fed a diet that is actually usable to his system.

Sweet potatoes as a snack would be fine as long as he doesn't have any
yeasty issues!!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Virginia Snider" <vsnider@cogeco.ca>
>
> He eats all his food and is on beef, chicken, duck gizzards and chicken
> hearts. Problem is, all now he seems constipated. When I first got him
> about a month ago he was on cheap crunchie and would go 4 x a day. Then
> after raw started he went down to 2x and better formed. He hasn't done
> anything in over 24 hours except a teenie dud that wasn't worth the
effort.
>
>
> I am getting worried, (first dog), but he is still full of energy and
> hungry. Drinking lots of water. Any ideas?
>
> Also, is there any reason he can't eat sweet potatoes?

Messages in this topic (3)
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5a. Re: Houston meat suppliers - Anyone have suggestions?
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:16 pm ((PDT))

Hi Kae,
Here in Houston I find a lot of meat at Food Town, Fiesta and asian
markets around town. I get goat and lamb from a couple of wholesalers.
The last time I got a 6-way cut goat it was 2.14/lb as opposed to 4.99.
Email me privately and I will send you a list of the places I use.
Denise

> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "kaebruney" <kaebruney@> wrote:
> I was wondering if anyone in Houston or
> > the SE Texas area had a reliable supplier they buy from?
>

Messages in this topic (5)
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6a. conversation at work.
Posted by: "DebiC" dcole6@satx.rr.com scarlet_debi
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:15 pm ((PDT))

I had this conversation at work yesterday and thought you all could relate to my frustration and desk head moment.

I had an interesting/funny/sad discussion with one of my coworkers the other day. Started out by talking about refrigerators.

I said I keep my dog food in the one in the garage. When she asked what kind of dog food, I told her meat. (She has Dalmatians as her son is a fireman. I have Jack Russells.)

What kind of meat?

Beef, chicken, pork, fish when I can get it.

Do I cook it?

No.

You feed it RAW!!

Yep.

Raw meat is not good for dogs. Do you give them bones too?

Yep, raw bones.

Raw meet is bad for dogs. It makes them mean. Bones will kill them.

Look, in the wild, coyotes wolves and foxes eat raw meat.

But these are dogs and raw meat will make them sick.

What's the difference between a German Shepherd and a coyote?

One's a dog the other is a wild animal.

I finally quit. She actually didn't see the comparison.
I am now a bad person cause I feed my dogs what nature intended them to eat. I give up.

My horse Scarlet is fed hay and grass. She doesn't get grain at all. I'm just plain evil.

Debi Cole

COLD NOSES AND WARM HEARTS
http://www.geocities.com/jrtbook4me/COLD_NOSES.html
A Pet Is A Lifetime Committment!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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6b. Re: conversation at work.
Posted by: "Brandi Bryant" bbryant573@gmail.com bbryant573
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:01 pm ((PDT))

>>>I finally quit. She actually didn't see the comparison.
I am now a bad person cause I feed my dogs what nature intended them to eat.
I give up. <<<
DebiC
Think of it this way your Jack Russels are going to 10 better looking then
her son's Dalmation!!!

Brandi
Bartlesville, OK

On 9/21/07, DebiC <dcole6@satx.rr.com> wrote:
>
> I had this conversation at work yesterday and thought you all could
> relate to my frustration and desk head moment.
>
> I had an interesting/funny/sad discussion with one of my coworkers the
> other day. Started out by talking about refrigerators.
>
> I said I keep my dog food in the one in the garage. When she asked what
> kind of dog food, I told her meat. (She has Dalmatians as her son is a
> fireman. I have Jack Russells.)
>
> What kind of meat?
>
> Beef, chicken, pork, fish when I can get it.
>
> Do I cook it?
>
> No.
>
> You feed it RAW!!
>
> Yep.
>
> Raw meat is not good for dogs. Do you give them bones too?
>
> Yep, raw bones.
>
> Raw meet is bad for dogs. It makes them mean. Bones will kill them.
>
> Look, in the wild, coyotes wolves and foxes eat raw meat.
>
> But these are dogs and raw meat will make them sick.
>
> What's the difference between a German Shepherd and a coyote?
>
> One's a dog the other is a wild animal.
>
> I finally quit. She actually didn't see the comparison.
> I am now a bad person cause I feed my dogs what nature intended them to
> eat. I give up.
>
> My horse Scarlet is fed hay and grass. She doesn't get grain at all. I'm
> just plain evil.
>
> Debi Cole
>
> COLD NOSES AND WARM HEARTS
> http://www.geocities.com/jrtbook4me/COLD_NOSES.html
> A Pet Is A Lifetime Committment!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

--
Brandi
Bartlesville, Ok
www.obediencetrainingclubofbartlesville.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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7a. Re: I think my puppy is allergic to chicken -getting desperate-
Posted by: "one_sojourner_one" onesojourner@gmail.com one_sojourner_one
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:59 pm ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE SIGN YOUR MESSAGES.***

Leanne

Ther was no variety. He was eating chicken and nothing else. He is now
eating beef and he actually eats it like he likes it. I think he
dislikes the taste of chicken enough that he would rather go hungry
and when he is really hungry he just pukes it up. I have some pork
ribs that I may try for lunch tomorrow.

Messages in this topic (10)
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8a. Re: All In...
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:20 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Will!
Welcome to the raw side! ^_^

After the initial 'figuring things out' period, and tweaking your
plans so it works for you and your dogs, its embarrassingly easy to
feed raw.

My list of recommendations to start out with (and a list to figure out
how to source cheap/free meats);
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374

My thoughts on the "Where to Feed?" Q;
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141648

The consensus on THIS list, which supports a species appropriate raw
whole prey model diet, is; no veggies, no fruits, no grains, no
grinding - not necessary.
Mixed meats - only after introducing new proteins slowly and allowing
these previously cereal fed dogs digestive systems to adapt properly
to raw.
Think bigger pieces, rather than smaller - no chicken wings unless
still attached to the chicken breast.

Print this info out if you like, and search the archives for other's
posts on the subjects that concern you and print those out, talk
everything over with your wife - highlight relevant &/or alternate
options for concerns you have.

You might enjoy exploring the links on this webpage together;
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

TC, and keep us current with your progress!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> Hello all,
>
> Today is the day 'we' take the plunge: Molly - Doberman, hound, ? mix
> (2 years old, 55 lbs); Jaz - terrier, shepherd, ? mix (3 years old 50
> lbs) ; Ruger - Decker Rat Terrier (2 years old, 38 lbs); and Chloe -
> Jack Russel Terrier (9 years old, 16 lbs). Three girls and a boy.
> All rescues.
>
> I am on board with this 100%. My wife - not so much.
<snip>
>
> Again, any help is GREATLY appreciated.
>
> WMT
>

Messages in this topic (9)
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8b. Re: All In...
Posted by: "eyed_blue" eyed_blue@yahoo.co.uk eyed_blue
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:56 am ((PDT))

Hi Will,

My dog has a crate but does not really like to eat in it so since its
not light/dry at night here just now, he has moved from the back
garden to the kitchen. I have hard flooring throughout, so to me this
is not a problem, I just disinfect the floor when he is done. I think
this is the best way as I can keep an eye on him when he gets to the
bone.

I have heard of people letting them eat from a plastic sheeting if
they have carpets.

Combining meats can be great, especially if you have a dog like mine
who is not food motivated as it keeps them interested, however to
start off with I just gave mine one single protein source, in a mince
(ground) form until he was fine, then introduced another source....For
my pup this was every three days. You can introduce bones for the
offset but maybe your dog is better with the minces that include
ground bone if he has been kibble fed for a long time. I wouldnt keep
them on just the minces for too long though.

Once you watch your dogs eating (appropriate sized)bones you will
realise for yourself how natural it is to them and how the have to
think which teeth they use for what part.....They relax more once its
consumed... Chicken wings are a bit small for mine (Doberman)so I
hold them while he munches on them. Prefer quarters.

Now that he is used to raw I try just to feed meaty bones but cant
always get them so keep minces in the freezer. Beef bones are a
recreational treat bone, they are too hard to serve for a meal and if
the dog is only getting these as bones then they will likley chip
their teeth...
I find lamb necks are good, perhaps you could start with these?
Most lamb bones are nice and soft for them and remember you want
MEATY bones. I would not feed bonemeal as its been sterilised and
this will lack some of the natural goodness that raw feeding is all
about, but a raw fed dog with bonemeal is probably still healthier
than a kibble fed dog, IMO

I dont think that they need veg/fruit as I tried it a couple of times
and just got runny poop as a result, however I think they have a place
in the form of treats. cubes of apple..

I have given mine pureed pumpkin before and mixed it through minced
meats when he has had a dodgy tum and it seems to work for him.

Sorry its a bit long winded,
Hope this has been of some help,

Natalie

Messages in this topic (9)
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8c. Re: All In...
Posted by: "MELISSA DANIELSON" mdanielson07@q.com mdmeadows65
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:57 am ((PDT))

Hi,
I recently wrote to raw feeding and was wondering how much raw food do you feed your dog. I have a miniture doxin who weighs about 15 to 20 lbs and a huge golden retreiver who weighs about 100. Have any ideas ? I searched the raw feeding site and could'nt find a feeding guideline
thanks
Melissa

To: rawfeeding@yahoogroups.comFrom: megan.giselle@gmail.comDate: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 04:20:20 +0000Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: All In...

Hi, Will!Welcome to the raw side! ^_^After the initial 'figuring things out' period, and tweaking yourplans so it works for you and your dogs, its embarrassingly easy tofeed raw.My list of recommendations to start out with (and a list to figure outhow to source cheap/free meats);http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374My thoughts on the "Where to Feed?" Q;http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141648The consensus on THIS list, which supports a species appropriate rawwhole prey model diet, is; no veggies, no fruits, no grains, nogrinding - not necessary. Mixed meats - only after introducing new proteins slowly and allowingthese previously cereal fed dogs digestive systems to adapt properlyto raw. Think bigger pieces, rather than smaller - no chicken wings unlessstill attached to the chicken breast. Print this info out if you like, and search the archives for other'sposts on the subjects that concern you and print those out, talkeverything over with your wife - highlight relevant &/or alternateoptions for concerns you have.You might enjoy exploring the links on this webpage together;http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.htmlTC, and keep us current with your progress!Gisellewith Bea in New Jersey> Hello all,> > Today is the day 'we' take the plunge: Molly - Doberman, hound, ? mix > (2 years old, 55 lbs); Jaz - terrier, shepherd, ? mix (3 years old 50 > lbs) ; Ruger - Decker Rat Terrier (2 years old, 38 lbs); and Chloe - > Jack Russel Terrier (9 years old, 16 lbs). Three girls and a boy. > All rescues.> > I am on board with this 100%. My wife - not so much. <snip>> > Again, any help is GREATLY appreciated.> > WMT>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
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8d. Re: All In...
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:47 am ((PDT))

Feeding guideline (and many other tips) is in here:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374

Recipes;
http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes

> I recently wrote to raw feeding and was wondering how much raw food
do you feed your dog. I have a miniature Dachshund who weighs about
15 to 20 lbs and a huge Golden Retriever who weighs about 100. Have
any ideas? I searched the raw feeding site and couldn't find a
feeding guideline
> thanks
> Melissa

> Hi, Will!
Welcome to the raw side! ^_^
After the initial 'figuring things out' period, and tweaking your
plans so it works for you and your dogs, its embarrassingly easy to
feed raw. My list of recommendations to start out with (and a list to
figure out how to source cheap/free meats);
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374

My thoughts on the "Where to Feed?"
Q;http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141648
<snip>
Print this info out if you like, and search the archives for other's
posts on the subjects that concern you and print those out<snip> -
highlight relevant &/or alternate options for concerns you have. <snip>
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html
TC, and keep us current with your progress!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

Messages in this topic (9)
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9a. Please Explain
Posted by: "Monica A. Joy" imajoy@hughes.net imajoy2003
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:25 pm ((PDT))

Chris O.

What is a big, complicated, engrossing meal exactly?

Thanks
Monica

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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9b. Re: Please Explain
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:53 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Monica!
Not Chris, but I'll answer anyway. ^_^

A big complicated, engrossing meal, to some extent depends on the
size, age, personality, health, dentition, experience, etc. of each
individual dog.

It just means a meal that requires a dog to get 'down 'n dirty' with
his food.

Really sink his teeth in, rip, tear, shear, crunch and maybe even get
his paws involved, too. lol

A tiny toy dog might find a chicken quarter complicated - a giant
breed like my Newfy girl needs a turkey, fresh ham or the like in
order to get really engaged with her food.

Some pics on this site show dogs with meals that require real involvement;
http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes

Think of what a wolf would eat;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CT_3QiWQh8M

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> What is a big, complicated, engrossing meal exactly?
>
> Thanks
> Monica

Messages in this topic (2)
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10a. Re: New-- with Puppy and diarrhea
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:53 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Shelly!
My guess would be that the kibble and raw is the cause of
the diarrhea. Some dogs/pups don't tolerate the mix. Raw is much more
easily digestible and more bioavailable, and kibble sits in the
digestive system longer and produces more waste, this cam cause problems.
It would be better to make the switch complete, instead of sitting no
the fence.
Feeding just meat will cause the stools to be loose, even runny. Bone
in the diet can firm things up.

Game hen can be easier for a young small breed pup to handle until
adjusting to raw and growing a bit. Being chicken slaughtered at a
younger age, it has a good amount of bone, but the bones are smaller
and softer.

You're liable to get a very scary, but uninformed lecture from your
vet. Most vets are invested in selling what they offer or sale, get
very little nutrition training in school, and what little they have
gotten, comes from the pet food corps. Billions of dollars in ad
campaigning have gone into propagandizing vets, and us, so that we
think we can't possibly have enough common sense to be able to figure
out how to feed our own dogs without buying a bag of cereal.

Inoculations can have the effect (at the least) of causing a rise in
temperature and diarrhea. There are some lists that you can join to
learn about minimal or no vaxs.

If you haven't done it before, read these links;
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/141374

You can print out any information you need to, so you can reread it
and highlight anything you find relevant.
TC and let us know how you and Leo progress!
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> I have a new 9 week old Shiba Inu puppy. He has been eating both Innova
> EVO and raw (chicken) for about a week now. I started him on hearts and
> gizzards first and last night I gave him a chicken leg.
> I woke up SEVERAL times, (not his norm) With SERIOUS diarrhea. <snip>
> Any assistance in a good direction for me would be helpful!! Thank
> You!!!
> Shelly
> w/ Leo my Shiba pup :)
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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11. Constipation / Update
Posted by: "Virginia Snider" vsnider@cogeco.ca rawbglass
Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:56 am ((PDT))

Wouldn't you know as soon as I get worried about it enough to post,
(because he didn't "go" at his usual times), Rio brought me my shoe about an
hour after his last regular walk for the night, (it got me to take him out
again), and he did just fine :-)

Thanks for your replies,

Virginia

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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