Feed Pets Raw Food: Jul 17, 2007

Tuesday, July 17, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11818

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: An Intro & A Question about Salmonella in Small Breed Pups
From: cypressbunny
1b. Re: An Intro & A Question about Salmonella in Small Breed Pups
From: Sandee Lee
1c. Re: An Intro & A Question about Salmonella in Small Breed Pups
From: Andrea
1d. Re: An Intro & A Question about Salmonella in Small Breed Pups
From: Denise Strother

2a. Are we feeding poison to our dogs/cats?
From: Andrea
2b. Are we feeding poison to our dogs/cats?
From: tottime47
2c. Are we feeding poison to our dogs/cats?
From: Ross Senger
2d. Re: Are we feeding poison to our dogs/cats?
From: Josephine Morningstar

3a. Re: Slippery Elm bark
From: Marguerite
3b. Re: Slippery Elm bark
From: ginny wilken

4. small dog newbie questions:
From: laurena_green

5a. Re: Help me, help the butcher!
From: cypressbunny
5b. Re: Help me, help the butcher!
From: Josephine Morningstar
5c. Re: Help me, help the butcher!
From: ginny wilken
5d. Re: Help me, help the butcher!
From: Maria

6a. Duck
From: Caren OConnor

7a. Newbie needs advice and encouragement
From: gina panza
7b. Re: Newbie needs advice and encouragement
From: Denise Strother

8. Re: Was stinky gaaaas/now Organs?
From: Marguerite

9a. Probably stupid question re: grass-fed meat
From: K Carolyn Ramamurti
9b. Re: Probably stupid question re: grass-fed meat
From: ginny wilken
9c. Re: Probably stupid question re: grass-fed meat
From: pet.wellness

10a. Pork safety?
From: millser25
10b. Re: Pork safety?
From: cypressbunny

11a. Re: liver
From: bluefilly

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: An Intro & A Question about Salmonella in Small Breed Pups
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:08 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, susan/foxfire <fxfireob@...>
wrote:
>
> In other
> words, she is thinking that it is the raw diet that caused Modi
to
> die, not poisoning.

*** Too bad you didn't have the dog or the rats tested. Do you have
neighbors that you could ask about whether they are using arsenic to
poison rats? Of course, do not do it in a way that will make them
defensive about accidentally killing your pup.

> The breeder is concerned
> that since we've fed raw for some time that the level of
salmonella
> in our yard is dangerously high, too high for small breed pups.

*** Rediculous. Salmonella can survive for several *months* in the
soil under the right conditions--it doesn't accumulate for years and
years.

> Since hearing about this I've been scouring the net trying to
find
> info to answer her questions

*** You might check the archives of this list too. It has been
discussed a lot. I wrote an article about salmonella in cats that
might interest you although it isn't specific to your situation:
http://www.rawfed.com/cat-salmonella.html

Carissa has a general article about germs and raw food here:
http://rawfed.com/myths/bacteria.html

> http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=2232&S=1

> adult animals are almost never affected by
> Salmonella infection.
>
> There is an important exception to the "Salmonella is rare in
adult
> dogs" rule and that is the case of dogs fed a raw food diet.

*** Total bunk. Salmonella infection is equally rare in raw fed
dogs. Notice the clever wording, though. "Adult animals are almost
never affected by Salmonella infection." Meaning they don't get
sick. They DO carry the bug, which is normal flora in the dog. The
next clever wording conflates carrying the bacteria and getting sick
from it, and conflates eating contaminated food with shedding the
bacteria afterword.

> A recent study evaluating raw food diets
> found that 80% of food samples contained Salmonella bacteria and
that
> 30% of the dogs in the study were shedding Salmonella bacteria in
> their stool.

*** These were commercial ground raw products, which we don't
recommend for several reasons. Grinding meat increases the bacteria
content exponentially, and ground meat does nothing for dental
health. These particular samples were also thawed at room temp for
12 or more hours, if memory serves me. Even so, even though 80% of
the samples were contaminated, only 30% of dogs shed enough
salmonella to be detected in the stool. Sounds like rawfed dogs are
really good at controlling salmonella, even when they are fed a lot
of it.

> Adult dogs are often asymptomatic but any infected
> animal or person will shed the organism for at least 6 weeks thus
> acting as a source of exposure to other animals or people.

*** More poppycock with no basis in fact. A study on salmonella in
sled dogs showed no correlation between diet, diarrhea, and
salmonella shedding.

> Again, dogs used for therapy around
> the elderly or children should be cultured for the presence of
> Salmonella.

*** Maybe so, if they are talking about all dogs, not only rawfed
dogs. Or perhaps the authors haven't read the studies showing no
correlation between diet and shedding salmonella.

> There are two syndromes associated with Salmonella: diarrhea and
> sepsis.

*** Gah. Who writes this stuff? Diarrhea isn't a syndrome, it is a
symptom. Sepsis is a fancy word for infection spreading through the
blood. Yes, if your immune system is so screwed up it allows
bacteria to penetrate the intestinal walls and spread through the
blood, you have very serious issues. Salmonella doesn't *cause*
this, it only takes advantage of the situation if it occurs, as
would two dozen other germs normally found in the intestinal tract.

> So I was hoping some folks here could help us address her
concerns
> regarding raw feeding, salmonella and small breed pups.

*** As Jane said, the size of the dog has nothing to do with
susceptibility to disease or the presumed dangers of feeding raw.
Salmonella infections do not cause dogs to bleed to death in 10
minutes, in any case. There are plenty of breeders on this list that
breed all sizes of dogs from mini dachsies to corgis to papillons
and on up to Great Danes. If their pups were keeling over from
salmonella they wouldn't rave about how healthy their rawfed dogs
are.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: An Intro & A Question about Salmonella in Small Breed Pups
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:16 pm ((PDT))

Hi Susan,

Seems they left out the fact that salmonella is everywhere in the
environment and is found in the gut and stools of a high percentage of
healthy dogs (and humans) *regardless* of what is fed! You are right...this
article is nothing but propaganda!

We have discussed salmonella many times if you would like to search the
archives. Here is one recent message that contains lots of good info....
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/123902

Oh, you might want to look at the rawfeeding myths also....
http://rawfed.com/myths/index.html

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "susan/foxfire" <fxfireob@mac.com>

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=2232&S=1

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: An Intro & A Question about Salmonella in Small Breed Pups
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:20 pm ((PDT))

Well, in all my research about salmonella and dogs it is always said
that healthy dogs aren't affected by it. Even in the quote you
found, it says that healthy adult dogs are asymptomatic. A sick
puppy might get sick from having salmonella around, but a healthy
puppy shouldn't. From my understanding even if a puppy got sick from
salmonella they would display vomiting and diarreah, and die from
dehydration, not from bleeding out.

I also noticed that the article mentioned "evaluating raw food diets"
which means the prefab stuff like Bravo, which are ground.
Salmonella doesn't actually live inside the meat, it is on the
outside. The more surface area you have, the more chance you have of
harboring bacteria, so ground foods will have a much higher bacterial
load than whole foods like chicken.

Besides, it isn't like ki**le is sterile, or salmonella isn't
naturally in the environment. Did you check out the rawfed myths
section? There is a good article about bacteria in raw
http://rawfed.com/myths/bacteria.html

Hopefully you can convince the breeder to open up their horizons a
little. Every little dog I've known has been as strong, if not
stronger than the big ones I have. Hope that helps a little.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, susan/foxfire <fxfireob@...> wrote:

> we lost Modi, our 4 mo Swedish Vallhund puppy, who had been eating
> raw since we brought him home at 8 wks old (thanks to SATS/Z he
> learned to eat "easy" and chew his food during his first week with
> us:)
>
> We are certain that Modi died from arsenic poisoning (the day he
> died, he showed some distress during the day and then he suddenly
> bled out that night and died within 10 mins; also we found some
> dead rats in our yard) However the breeder is not so sure and is
> seriously considering not giving us another pup. She is concerned
> that it was salmonella and not poison, because she says poisons
> cause neurological and clotting problems and not digestive problems
> (while this may be true of warfarin it is not true of arsenic). In
> other words, she is thinking that it is the raw diet that caused
> Modi to die, not poisoning.

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

1d. Re: An Intro & A Question about Salmonella in Small Breed Pups
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:12 pm ((PDT))

I have a Chihuahua who weighs a little over 3lbs and has a compromised
immune system that is raw fed. He weighed 2.2lbs when I got him. We
aren't sure how old he was when I rescued him from death row at the
local pound, somewhere between 6 mos and a year is the vets best
guess. I often buy out of date meat to feed and sometimes it gets left
out long enough to be a little gamey. He hasn't had a problem with the
dreaded Salmonella, so draw your own conclusions from that. Denise

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Are we feeding poison to our dogs/cats?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:14 pm ((PDT))

This is a risk we're taking just by owning and feeding carnivores,
period. Feeding "premium" crap in a bag still uses animals with the
heavy metals in them. Rendering it doesn't make the contaminants go
away, going strictly from the quotes provided, I would think raw
feeding is safer than crap in a bag. If the heavy metals collect in
the bones, most dogs don't/can't consume beef bones but bone meal is
often used in ki**le. Just my two cents.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "deep_ocean_of_sorrow"
<deep_ocean_of_sorrow@...> wrote:
>
> *** Mod Note: TRIM YOUR POSTS ! ***
>
> Thanks to everyone that replied, I suppose we cannot change the
> world to
> stop using unleaded gasoline..
> but there are some amount of lead in cattle, correct(whether it be
> little or a lot)? and like the quotes, wouldn't that mean that the
> more we feed these to our dogs, the more of a chance they will
> suffer from lead poisoning? Or is this a type of risk we're just
> taking to avoid dog foods/cat foods....?

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Are we feeding poison to our dogs/cats?
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:21 pm ((PDT))

Hi Kate,

What are you eating? If you have that type of thinking then every
single bite of food you put in your mouth is poisioning
you......plants take up poisions and such from the
soils too...........

We can't get away from eating.....that's a fact.....so the next
best thing is to feed a species appropriate diet...

When it comes to k***le or canned have you checked out what's in it?
That should give you real nightmares, lol.

I think if you do, you'll decide raw feeding is not a risk but one
heck of a lot safer than any other way........

Carol, Charkee & Moli

===============

wouldn't that mean that the
more we feed these to our dogs, the more of a chance they will suffer
from lead poisoning? Or is this a type of risk we're just taking to
avoid dog foods/cat foods....?

Kate

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

2c. Are we feeding poison to our dogs/cats?
Posted by: "Ross Senger" rosssenger@shaw.ca rosssenger
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:40 pm ((PDT))

> Thanks to everyone that replied, I suppose we cannot change the
> world to stop using unleaded gasoline..

I have read many books that talk about the lead content in meat due
to this and have developed a few opinions.

1) I am feeding my dogs the same type of meat I eat (sometimes the
exact same meat). So if I am poisoning them I must also be poisoning
myself.

2) Lead was eliminated from most gasoline in the U.S. during the
1970s and 1980s so there has been 20 years of cars driving
on "UNLEADED" (no-Lead gas) in the US.

FYI: Possession and use of leaded gasoline in a regular on-road
vehicle now carries a maximum $10,000 fine in the United States. In
some parts of South America, Asia, Europe and the Middle East, leaded
gasoline is still in use.

So I would say that Meat comming from Canada and the US is probably
much safer then products comming from overseas. Lead in meat is the
least of our worries.

My two cents

-Ross

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

2d. Re: Are we feeding poison to our dogs/cats?
Posted by: "Josephine Morningstar" josephine.morningstar@gmail.com jomorningstar
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:57 pm ((PDT))

On 7/17/07, Ross Senger <rosssenger@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> Lead in meat is the
> least of our worries.

some towns with older homes in them.. have to contend with lead in their
drinking water. which is a concern here in my home town.. enough so that
the epa fined the town for not taking care of it.

--
Josephine MorningStar & Heather, Pyr, Mobility & MASD
Native American in Massachusetts

Never threaten anyone. It ruins the surprise.
www.apachecreations.com

Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission. -Eleanor
Roosevelt-

http://assistancedogsofnorthamerica.org/
Copyright (c) 2007 Josephine Morningstar

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: Slippery Elm bark
Posted by: "Marguerite" semitruestory@gmail.com margo532001
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:15 pm ((PDT))

I got the tablets too. How much/many would you give a 7 , 24 and/or 80 #
dog? Thanks.

--
Marguerite
Tuscaloosa, Alabama
Marley- GR, Lucy-Cocker,
Liza-Yorkie,SmellyCat-PersianPolydactyl
Punkin- Pacific Parrotlet

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: Slippery Elm bark
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:32 pm ((PDT))

On Jul 17, 2007, at 2:04 PM, Marguerite wrote:

> I got the tablets too. How much/many would you give a 7 , 24 and/or
> 80 #
> dog? Thanks.

If you're asking me, I'd say maybe a half tablet for the smallest, a
whole one for the 24#er and two for the big dog. It's not at all
harmful, and you can't OD, so you just need to get a feel for how big
their digestive tracts really are compared to ours.

You can repeat this at every meal until the situation improves. If
the animal is ill enough to need to fast, give it in a little cream
or broth.

ginny and Tomo

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4. small dog newbie questions:
Posted by: "laurena_green" laurensa@earthlink.net laurena_green
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:17 pm ((PDT))

Hi rawfeeders!

I am a greatful one-week long convert in need of ideas or corrections in my reasoning,
after reading as much as I could take in from the list. First, my girl, "Gemma," is a 14-
month-old, 12# poodle-schnauzer who loves her new menu! However, yesterday it was
"canon-butt" in the dog park.-not pretty and I thought I was correcting for the more meaty
day before. Maybe I fed too much...? these are the issues/my understanding so far:

If my priorities in the initial adjustment period are to:
a) minimize digestive upset, while keeping her waste neat enough to pick up, (we spend a
lot of time in the dog park; don't want to leave "soft serve" behind),

then I should aim for the diet optimum in each meal, leaving organs for a bit later; before,
for example, alternating meaty and bony days or just keeping a loose weekly sense of the
diet structure?

and, if I want to:
b) minimize the choking hazard while not wasting meat, then I should:

feed "big" enough for at least two meals and take it up halfway to save the rest for the
next meal. If I don't get in there to pick it up until there's a smaller-than her-head sized
piece, then that piece is wasted as a next meal ('cause it's a choking hazard)?

and, there is the guarding issue:
c) Gemma is not a self regulator; if I pre-portion her meals then they are choking-hazard-
sized, but if I "feed big" I don't know what to use as a higher value distraction to remove
her leftovers. Today I dangled a bigger portion of what she was already eating over her
nose. Without averting her gaze, she growled so nastily, (as if to say: "take this away if you
want your arm ripped off!), Finally, I clapped my hands loudly and got a split second of her
attention to zoom in and take the rest. I am assuming this isn't a good long-term
strategy?

d) schnauzers, poodles, fat intake, and pancreatitis:
my understanding is that both breeds of this hybrid are predisposed to pancreatitis and
should not get too much fat in their diet; any advice on how to visually judge the fat
amount so you are feeding around 10-20%?

Thanks in advance for all feedback!

Lauren and "Gemma" in S.F.

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: Help me, help the butcher!
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:57 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cresco299" <gentry.jeffrey@...>
wrote:
>
> > Without insulting my only source of a budget saving miracle, how
do I
> tactfully point him in the right direction (not that I know where to
> look).
>
> You have to enjoy the irony....

*** It is a flat, squarish, granular organ stuck to the top of the
rumen (when the cow is standing up). They probably normally just pitch
the tripe and intestines, and with it the pancreas which is attached.
It should peel off the rumen fairly easily.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: Help me, help the butcher!
Posted by: "Josephine Morningstar" josephine.morningstar@gmail.com jomorningstar
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:57 pm ((PDT))

On 7/17/07, cypressbunny <cypressbunny@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> They probably normally just pitch
> the tripe and intestines, and with it the pancreas which is attached.
> It should peel off the rumen fairly easily.
>
> --Carrie
>
> Wouldnt the Green tripe also benefit the dog with EPI???

--
Josephine MorningStar & Heather, Pyr, Mobility & MASD
Native American in Massachusetts
Never threaten anyone. It ruins the surprise.
www.apachecreations.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

5c. Re: Help me, help the butcher!
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:18 pm ((PDT))

On Jul 17, 2007, at 12:20 PM, cresco299 wrote:

>
> Without insulting my only source of a budget saving miracle, how do I
> tactfully point him in the right direction (not that I know where to
> look).
>
> You have to enjoy the irony....
>

Really.... Well, it's pink, not red, and kind of squishy like lungs.
It is nestled behind the stomach proper, just where the small
intestine starts. It's bigger than a spleen, which is more discrete,
covered with a membrane, and red, not pink.

You could offer to help:) I would.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

5d. Re: Help me, help the butcher!
Posted by: "Maria" plava_93@yahoo.com plava_93
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:34 pm ((PDT))

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Illu_pancrease.jpg

Maria

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Duck
Posted by: "Caren OConnor" cavkist@yahoo.com cavkist
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:21 pm ((PDT))

Hello list members -
Does anyone have experience feeding duck? Would you mind sharing your experience(s) and reason(s) for feeding?
I just spoke with a Cavalier owner who shared that duck was recommended by her vet after when her dog began scratching.
BTW, she feeds hers cooked but, of course, I would be interested in feeding it raw.
Caren O'Connor
Nansemond Cavaliers

---------------------------------
Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Newbie needs advice and encouragement
Posted by: "gina panza" gpanza@austin.rr.com queenb787
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:21 pm ((PDT))

Hi my name is Gina and I just started my 12.5 yr old Dalmatian
(Bandit) on a raw diet; 5 days so far! I have seen an improvement in
his energy and mobility.

I'm learning as I go...this is what i've been feeding him
-meaty bones
-egg w/shells
-gizzards
-mashed up carrots (i'm learning as I go and this list does not
condone vegetables; but now I know better)
He takes the bone out of the bowl, eats the egg, gizzards and
carrots; licks the bowl clean then takes his meaty bone into the yard
to eat.

I have also fed him fish and turkey (I'm trying to make do with what
I have until I get my freezer stocked with the right foods). Now that
I started I can't stop so I'm still confused about a couple of
elementary things.

1. Chicken backs? Is this just the bones? or bones with meat?
2. I woke up this morning and stepped on a 1 and almost 2 inch long
pieces of rib bone and a small bit of vomit. Is this normal? Could
this have caused a puncture in his intestine? This scared me! What
else am I doing wrong?

I know this gets easier the more information that one has but I
jumped in and then realized how much I did not know. I feel like a
bad parent for not doing more research FIRST. He was starting to not
eat his kibble and I wanted him off as fast as possible. (My 17 year
old cat recently died and her speedy decline started with refusing to
eat her canned food, one minute she was fine and the next minute she
was dying...so sad!)

Very worried and nervous but trying to keep the raw diet going,
gina
Austin, TX

Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________

7b. Re: Newbie needs advice and encouragement
Posted by: "Denise Strother" denisestrother@yahoo.com denisestrother
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:34 pm ((PDT))

Gina,
Don't worry, it's ok to get started and learn as you go. Make it
easy on yourself and your dog. Your dog's intestines are just fine,
I'm sure. You're lucky if a bone and a bit of vomit is the only
issue your dog is having with the switch. This vomit you speak of,
was it yellow or foamy? Some dogs will vomit bile and bone until
their body gets up to speed on digesting bones. Unless your meaty
bones are really mostly meat with a little bone then your dog's diet
is heavy on the bone, especially if he is eating the eggshells too.
And you already know to scrap the carrots. Backs once again are
heavy on the bone and light on meat. A better choice would be to get
a whole chicken and cut it into quarters. Then give your dog a
quarter at a time. I don't think too much of gizzards as a big part
of a meal. I feed them if they come in a chicken, but I don't buy
gizzards as a separate entity. If your dog seems to like this menu,
then wait til he gets a whole chicken quarter. Pork shoulder roasts
(aka picnic roasts) are also great. Your dog doesn't have to have
bone in every meal. Also check the archives for more info. BTW, I'm
in Houston, howdy neighbor. Denise

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, gina panza <gpanza@...> wrote:
> I'm learning as I go...this is what i've been feeding him
> -meaty bones
> -egg w/shells
> -gizzards
> -mashed up carrots (i'm learning as I go and this list does not
> condone vegetables; but now I know better)
> He takes the bone out of the bowl, eats the egg, gizzards and
> carrots; licks the bowl clean then takes his meaty bone into the
yard to eat. I have also fed him fish and turkey (I'm trying to make
do with what I have until I get my freezer stocked with the right
foods). Now that I started I can't stop so I'm still confused about
a couple of elementary things.
1. Chicken backs? Is this just the bones? or bones with meat?
2. I woke up this morning and stepped on a 1 and almost 2 inch long
pieces of rib bone and a small bit of vomit. Is this normal? Could
this have caused a puncture in his intestine? This scared me! What
else am I doing wrong?

Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8. Re: Was stinky gaaaas/now Organs?
Posted by: "Marguerite" semitruestory@gmail.com margo532001
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:21 pm ((PDT))

So sweetbread would be considered organs?

--
Marguerite
Tuscaloosa, Alabama
Marley- GR, Lucy-Cocker,
Liza-Yorkie,SmellyCat-PersianPolydactyl
Punkin- Pacific Parrotlet

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. Probably stupid question re: grass-fed meat
Posted by: "K Carolyn Ramamurti" lilith23360@yahoo.com lilith23360
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:34 pm ((PDT))

I have a couple of terrific sources for grass-fed meat and poultry. Is there any harm in feeding almost exclusively grass-fed animals and fowl?

Thanks in advance,

Carolyn in Seattle

---------------------------------
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

9b. Re: Probably stupid question re: grass-fed meat
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:40 pm ((PDT))

On Jul 17, 2007, at 4:19 PM, K Carolyn Ramamurti wrote:

> I have a couple of terrific sources for grass-fed meat and
> poultry. Is there any harm in feeding almost exclusively grass-fed
> animals and fowl?
>

Oh, gosh, no! Think about what any prey animal in the wild would be
eating! There were no bad meats before man invented grain cultivation.

ginny and Tomo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

9c. Re: Probably stupid question re: grass-fed meat
Posted by: "pet.wellness" pet.wellness@yahoo.com pet.wellness
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:12 pm ((PDT))

Gosh I hope not. I just polished off a big burger of grass fed beef
and my dog demolished an enormous edible brisket bone. According to
the grass-fed beef ranchers I buy from grass-fed is the best!

http://slankersgrassfedmeats.com/grass_fed_beef_in_a_nutshell.htm

Call Ted Slanker. He'll talk your ear off with the benefits. Sold me.

Pamela

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, K Carolyn Ramamurti
<lilith23360@...> wrote:
>
> I have a couple of terrific sources for grass-fed meat and poultry.
Is there any harm in feeding almost exclusively grass-fed animals and
fowl?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Carolyn in Seattle

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. Pork safety?
Posted by: "millser25" millser25@yahoo.com millser25
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:12 pm ((PDT))

I've been feeding raw for about a year now, and have shyed away from
pork for fear of trichinosis. I just recently joined this list, and
it sounds like a lot of you ARE feeding pork. How big is the risk of
trichinosis? Are there safer cuts of pork than others? Are certain
sources of pork safer?
Thanks!
Erica in NW Oregon

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

10b. Re: Pork safety?
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:02 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "millser25" <millser25@...> wrote:
>
> How big is the risk of
> trichinosis?

*** In the US the rate of trich in pork is now about 0.007%.

If that is a risk that worries you, freezing for 3 weeks or so kills
the parasite.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11a. Re: liver
Posted by: "bluefilly" bluefilly@gmail.com bluefillyausi
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:01 pm ((PDT))

know this is an old post, but have another suggestion. try liver from
a different animal. my dog will chow down on chicken liver, but is not
so keen on lamb or beef liver.

kim

On 12/06/07, Tina Berry <k9baron@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> "Any suggestions for flavoring the veggie mix? They will eat the raw chicken
> parts but not organ meat."
>
> As far as organs, 1 of my 4 does not like liver - he will eat it frozen, but
> not thawed - sometimes they don't like the ICK factor - imagine that, dogs
> grossed out by liver LOL. Baron used to not like it thawed, but now he eats
> it fine. So try feeding frozen liver and see if they will eat it. Increase
> your meat and see how it goes.

--
--------
My inferiority complex is not as good as yours.
Robin Banks
bluefilly@gmail.com

Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

All information on this list represents personal opinion only. By staying on this list, you agree to never hold anyone from this list or associated with this list liable for any information posted through this list. You agree to take personal responsibility for your learning, and for personal responsibility for what you feed yourself, your family, and your dogs, cats, ferrets, or any other animal that lives under your care. If you don't agree, please unsubscribe immediately.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
mailto:rawfeeding-normal@yahoogroups.com
mailto:rawfeeding-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
rawfeeding-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11817

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Leaving dogs for the weekend
From: Carol Santangelo
1b. Re: Leaving dogs for the weekend
From: sanikamjoshi

2a. Re: Update:effect of raw diet on arthritis
From: wdlady1

3a. Re: tilapia and bonita
From: Yasuko herron

4.1. New Member
From: wdlady1

5a. Re: supplement w/digestive enzymes?
From: tottime47

6a. Re: Kidney problems and raw
From: Sandee Lee

7a. Re: butcher cuts?
From: costrowski75
7b. Re: butcher cuts?
From: Pi
7c. Re: butcher cuts?
From: costrowski75
7d. Re: Chicken backs / fat
From: gevan1a
7e. Re: Chicken backs / fat
From: costrowski75
7f. Re: Chicken backs / fat
From: gevan1a

8a. Slippery Elm brak
From: Yasuko herron
8b. Re: Slippery Elm brak
From: ginny wilken
8c. Re: Slippery Elm brak
From: Giselle

9a. Re: 80/10/10?
From: Laura Atkinson
9b. Re: 80/10/10?
From: costrowski75

10a. Re: Thanks Giselle for tips on getting meat supplies!
From: creativevazquez
10b. Re: Thanks Giselle for tips on getting meat supplies!
From: Giselle

11a. Re: Lamb
From: Yasuko herron

12. Help me, help the butcher!
From: cresco299

13a. An Intro & A Question about Salmonella in Small Breed Pups
From: susan/foxfire
13b. Re: An Intro & A Question about Salmonella in Small Breed Pups
From: bluegracepwd

14a. Are we feeding poison to our dogs/cats?
From: deep_ocean_of_sorrow

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Leaving dogs for the weekend
Posted by: "Carol Santangelo" carol.santangelo@gmail.com santangelo_carol
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:11 am ((PDT))

Just a thought...

Make sure who ever you leave your dogs with knows what to do in the event of
choking (ie. Doggie heimlich maneuver).

Carol

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Leaving dogs for the weekend
Posted by: "sanikamjoshi" Sanibonn18@aol.com sanikamjoshi
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:22 am ((PDT))

Hi Jenna,

I was just out of town for 2 weeks, I have only been feeding my dogs
raw for 2 months and did not want to break their habits now.

I too, ziplock bagged everything and put labels/sharpie with name and
the date it was to be fed so there would be no confusion or
hesitation. And because if the neurotic person that I am, I arranged
everything in chronological order with the food the would be eating
first at the front.

The kid that came to our house to care for them had no problems what
so ever. The dogs were happy and healthy upon my return.

Don't stress, enjoy your weekend away!

Sanika & Group

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Giselle" <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I was wondering what dog owners on this list do when they have to
leave
> > for vacation as far as feeding. I am leaving my two small dogs
with
> > their breeder who does at this time not feed raw. I want to make
> > feeding my dogs easy on her. I know commercial raw diets are not
> > endorsed on this list but what is the opinion if it is just for a
few
> > days?
> > Jenna
> >
>

Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Update:effect of raw diet on arthritis
Posted by: "wdlady1" 4reptiles@gmail.com wdlady1
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:53 am ((PDT))

***MODERATOR'S NOTE: WELCOME! PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES.***

--
Thank for your positive update. I am going to introduce myself right
after this. I am so happy for you I just jumped of the fence 2 weeks
ago too. SO looks like we are at about the came time frame. Look for
my intro post for my story.

Janine
hannabee & Kazan
- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, a.flynn@... wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> Just had to write and let everyone know how my old girl (13 yo lab
x) is getting on with her new raw diet and no arthritis medication.
>
> It's been a bit over 2 weeks now and the difference really is
amazingly good and after such a short time! I already raved about her
clean teeth and breath in my post a week ago.
>
> Another week on, and her eyes are noticably much brighter, she is
wagging her tail a lot, she is more keen to go for her walk and is
walking faster when out on her walk than usual. (She could barely
stand up, let alone go for her walk when on a break between
medications recently)
>
> My son (8) who helped me research the diet on the net and is
watching the progress, excitedly ran in yesterday to tell me that
Jessie was cleaning her backside! May seem like a strange thing to
get excited about, but honestly she has been too stiff for the past
year or so to bend around to do this, so we are very excited!!
>
> It is the middle of winter here (Australia) so I was concerned at
first how she would go without the medication but I was keen to see
clearly the effect of the diet alone, and I am so pleased we gave it
a go. Seems to me that she may not need the medication at all for
now. She absolutely loves her raw food and if she died tomorrow, I
would feel better that she has at least had these happier weeks.
>
> I so much wish I had found out sooner how bad canned and kibbled
junk is for them.
>
> If any one reading this is sitting on the fence about doing the raw
thing with your dogs....I would say just do it...dive right in and
give your dogs what nature intended. They will be so much happier.
>
> Cheers, Ann.
>

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Re: tilapia and bonita
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:55 am ((PDT))

> Many dogs refuse to eat tilapia.

Hi. My dog really hated catfish,turns the nose up and looking sideways and don't look at fish on floor.It was not so for tilapia,and she ate it but after 2 hours from meal,she started whiny at entrance door and as soon as the door opened,she did dashed to lawn and did big watery green goo. and It was not just one time pooping time and it was about 2-3 times that day and it was so miserable.

I did quick butt bath for her,and kept her butt clean but, I am not feeding Tilapia anymore.

If it was beef or other protin,I still could try other way to let her eat and digest better like feeding from very small amount ,but since fish, and has so many different kinds of fish available at counter although some come with fillet,I did not forced her to eat catfish and did not try tilapia again.

I read here and there that dog refuse to eat tilapia too.

I myself love tilapia and it has real mild flavor and so meaty white fish and even fish-hater;my husband can eat it and ask for more,so,IF your dog did not like Tilapia or you got same result to mine,then cook it for yourself.it is very tasty fish and,it was especially good in Yellow Thai Curry (Iused Tilapia instead of chicken or other meats).

As for Bonita,if your dog did not eat it or did not digest well and think about not feeding it next time,if you could find way to dry it,then you can dry whole Bonita fish and then, grate it and use some for Dashi making;I guess people here call fish stock?? You take the shredded bonita out from broth later but it makes nice flavoring. We Japanese call "Katsuo Bushi" and use it to make dashi mostly but you can grate over Chilled Tofu with Soysauce.Little piece goes long away too.

And,today was my dog's fish day so,I fed Squid.It was Frozen packaged Squid from grocerystore and 3 whole squid (From US to be caught) and cost me about 4 dollars so,1 squid was about 1 dollars.Not bad. I washed off squid innk and took out the cartlidge and fed 1 squid today.

My dog went nuts and,ate it tentacles too so fast! Maybe not tasting much:-P

If she did not do gooey poo,I would feed it again.I know that it is already 2 hours passsed from morning meal time so,I do not think I would have problems like the time with Tilapia though.

Tomorrow,I going to feed Perch fish (I myself never had it but looks meaty fish).

I usually pick up whatever on sale and the one usually don't see at counter and stock up.
I buy 1 lb or less for just in case of palette does not like it and we too not liking it.

I have fed Scallop,Shrimp,Snappers,MahiMahi,Halibut, Cod, Squid(Today), Flounders etc..

My dog liked canned Clam,canned crab too not just canned Salmon,canned Mackarrel,canned Sardine.

Herring in saltedwater package was very very problems even if I wash it under the water so,better not to buy it.

Hope it helps, just an example of waht I have fed so far..

yassy

---------------------------------
Building a website is a piece of cake.
Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4.1. New Member
Posted by: "wdlady1" 4reptiles@gmail.com wdlady1
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:55 am ((PDT))

HI,

I will try to be as short as possible. I am new here, my name is
Janine and I have 2 Akita's (Hannabee-female, Kazan-Male). I started
feeding raw two weeks ago. I also sometimes feed Essex Cottage Farms,
A mix that you add eggs, 2 cups of greens,carrots, apples.You can
feed this raw of baked. I baked it for the first 2 weeks but now I am
starting to give it raw.

This all started two weeks ago. My male had desided to barley eat his
breakfast(not normal). He would have to have tuna or something on it.
I took him to the vet. CHecked teeth, blood work,and urine ect. $350
later and my do is the same. The blood results said creatinine was up
slightly. range 40-159 he was 161. all other kidney markers fine, all
blood work excellent. This bothered me, if you don't know by the time
kidneys show in blood work they are 75% gone. So it was too close for
me. They said they were only slightly elevated, but because
everything else was fine watch and see!!!

So that night I started to feed homecooked. My male is excellent,
eats every meal, sleeps better, happier, teeth better I could go on.

Can't wait to meet everyone
janine
hannabee & kazan

Messages in this topic (109)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: supplement w/digestive enzymes?
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:55 am ((PDT))

Hi Monica,

Here's some of the comments from different people I found in the past
posts.
From what they say she needs enzyme supplements and a low fat raw
diet.....
You need to do some investigating and find out what besides rabbit
(very low fat)you can feed her........

Comments:

1-Putting her on enzymes helped almost immediately with her weight
and her hair loss.

2-Nothing worked for this
girl but a low fat low fiber diet and the magic diet for her was
rabbit - raw whole carcass ground. fur and all.

3-Also, be observant of your dogs' fat intake.
I know that dogs with
pancreatic issues have a hard time digesting fat.

4-I feed
relatively lean meat (beef tongue is GREAT, turkey, cutting fat
chunks off of beef heart and chicken, no issues with organs).
Because dogs need fat, I supplement with a little whole yogurt and/or
kefir a couple times a week (medium -chain tryglycerides are easier
to digest), along with daily fish oil.

5-My dog
will hork up a big tripe meal, or too many chicken feet - I think
they poke his insides - or a large meal of anything - but not every
time. So it's not exclusively ground or big pieces, but mostly the
amount, and the time taken eating it - longer is better.

6-In pancreatic insufficiency, the nutrients in food are passed out
in the feces undigested. An animal with this disease often has a
ravenous appetite, diarrhea, and weight loss. Even though he is
eating, he could literally starve to death. Treatment for pancreatic
insufficiency is lifelong, but is possible. The pet's digestive
enzymes are replaced through a product processed from pancreases of
hogs and cattle which contain large quantities of the digestive
enzymes. A change in diet with added nutritional supplements may also
be necessary.

Hope some of this helps,

Carol, Charkee & Moli

=============
--I've already removed the skin off the chicken quarter and it has
not helped.
If I remove the bone and just feed chicken, he gets horrible
diarrhea. I
can't go smaller than a chicken quarter or he'll gulp it down. I am
at a
loss.

Thanks

Monica and Loki

Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: Kidney problems and raw
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:05 am ((PDT))

Hi Taylor,

Look back at this message where you will find all the info you need protein
and kidneys.....
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/114796

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "musiquedelanuit" <taylor.lhb@hotmail.com>

I have been talking to my Dad about feeding raw for a few months now
and I have all but convinced him that it's the way to go. The problem
is that his Golden Retrievers was poisoned during the recent pet-food
recall and his kidneys were severely damaged. As a result, his vet put
him on a Royal Canin low protein diet. My Dad is afraid to start
feeding raw because he feels that it is too high in protein and would
be a dangerous chance to take with a sick dog.

I know a raw diet would be beneficial, but I don't know what to say to
him to convince him. Does anyone have aditional information on this
topic? What should I tell him?

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. Re: butcher cuts?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:09 am ((PDT))

"melaniearles" <SibeMaya@...> wrote:
>
>> What do you mean by fat trim? Do you take off the skin from
chickens
> or something and just put it in the dog's meal? I'm wondering
because
> I too feed through lean meats and haven't really been sure of what to
> do to provide them so fat.
*****
What you suspect.
Fat that I acquire separately or fat that I myself trim from meat.

I don't take skin off chickens; however last century when I was
starting out I would pull the fat globs off chicken backs and because
any day I just KNEW I would make chopped chicken liver I saved them
(not bad enough I was relying on chicken backs, not bad enough I was
also de-fatting them but then to SAVE the fat, oh my!). I did not add
the chicken fat to lean meats because I was too dumb to but you
certainly can and should if the meats you offer are generally lean.
You can do the same with skin if you want.

I typically feed beef fat but since pork is so generous with it I also
use pork fat trim. Whatever you got, use.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________

7b. Re: butcher cuts?
Posted by: "Pi" scribblekitten@yahoo.com scribblekitten
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:17 am ((PDT))

costrowski75 wrote:
> I think there are more broadly useful pork body parts.
> ....
>
> My dogs also get a goodly amount of dietary fat, and when I am
> feeding through lean meat like emu or venison I absolutely will add
> fat trim to the meals. The concept ain't lost on me, I promise!
> Chris O
>
>
Hehe I wasn't correcting you ro arguing in any way, jsut rambling on in
the way I do :) As I said I can't find pork belly anyway, I just
wondered about it because I like it myself, whether it'd be a good thing
for him. I just won't be sharing it with him when I find some now... :P

-Anna +Pi +SunshineKitty

Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________

7c. Re: butcher cuts?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:56 am ((PDT))

Pi <scribblekitten@...> wrote:
>As I said I can't find pork belly anyway, I just
> wondered about it because I like it myself, whether it'd be a good
thing
> for him. I just won't be sharing it with him when I find some
now... :P
*****
Yeah, like me and baby back ribs when I can afford them! My dogs can
just get their own.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________

7d. Re: Chicken backs / fat
Posted by: "gevan1a" gevans@sycomtech.com gevan1a
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:21 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:

> (not bad enough I was relying on chicken backs, not bad enough I was
> also de-fatting them but then to SAVE the fat, oh my!).

> Chris O
>

I'm new and not sure I understand...........

Are chicken backs ok as a primary source of meat? Should the organs be
removed? the fat?

-George E

Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________

7e. Re: Chicken backs / fat
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:56 am ((PDT))

"gevan1a" <gevans@...> wrote:
> I'm new and not sure I understand...........
>
> Are chicken backs ok as a primary source of meat?
*****
No they are not. They don't have enough meat to be considered a
primary source of it.

They can be considered a primary source of bone though because they
are mostly bone. If you are relying on chicken backs for meat, you
are doing your dog an injustice. Add meat to the menu.

Short haul, most anything's doable. Long haul, your dog's diet
should be lots more meat and lots less bone.

Should the organs be
> removed? the fat?
*****
The bits of kidney stuck to a chicken back should be fed; they are
not likely to be enough to produce digestive distress. Whenever you
can feed attached organs, feed them.

Fat might have to be reduced for beginning dogs if their tummies
aren't quite up to the challenge of "too much". Experienced,
otherwise healthy dogs generally do not have problems with menu fat.

Don't remove fat unless you have to. Fat is important for chubby
dogs as well, so if you are inclined to remove fat for weight
control, leave at least some.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________

7f. Re: Chicken backs / fat
Posted by: "gevan1a" gevans@sycomtech.com gevan1a
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:33 pm ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> "gevan1a" <gevans@> wrote:
> > I'm new and not sure I understand...........
> >
> > Are chicken backs ok as a primary source of meat?
> *****
> No they are not. They don't have enough meat to be considered a
> primary source of it.
>
> They can be considered a primary source of bone though because they
> are mostly bone. If you are relying on chicken backs for meat, you
> are doing your dog an injustice. Add meat to the menu.

Thanks so much for the insight. Think I'll pickup some leg quarters on
the way home tonight.

-George E

Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Slippery Elm brak
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:17 am ((PDT))

Hi, after having problems with Lamb feeding with my dog,I started wondering about Slippery Elm.I know that when somebody's dogs get gutt problems,often times,Slippery Elms/probiotic are recommended to feed with meal.

Slippery Elm bark is explained as..

Nature's Herbs Wild Countryside Slippery Elm Inner Bark. For safe, temporary relief of minor discomfort and protection of irritated areas in sore throat, sore mouth, coughs due to irritated throat, and to help soothe and relive irritation of influenced mucous membranes in the stomach and intestinal tract. Our exclusive FreshCare System inhibits normal plant oxidation, maintaining product potency and extending freshness. It includes all-natural antioxidants in each capsule, oxygen-absorbing packets in each bottle, special air-tight seals and amber glass packaging for uncompromised quality.

And,the one I found at web look like for human and it is with capsules.

These are what you all are using?

Probiotic is used for diarrhea treatment or preventing them during the switch and main ingredients are acidphil something that found in Yogurt and give good friendly bacteria in the gutt.

What these Slippery Elms do? It says soothing the intestine but which of the two are beter to dogs?It may depends on indivisual dogs too but.. in general?

I was curious.

thank you

yassy

---------------------------------
Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

8b. Re: Slippery Elm brak
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:02 pm ((PDT))

On Jul 17, 2007, at 10:01 AM, Yasuko herron wrote:

>
> Nature's Herbs Wild Countryside Slippery Elm Inner Bark. For
> safe, temporary relief of minor discomfort and protection of
> irritated areas in sore throat, sore mouth, coughs due to irritated
> throat, and to help soothe and relive irritation of influenced
> mucous membranes in the stomach and intestinal tract. Our exclusive
> FreshCare System inhibits normal plant oxidation, maintaining
> product potency and extending freshness. It includes all-natural
> antioxidants in each capsule, oxygen-absorbing packets in each
> bottle, special air-tight seals and amber glass packaging for
> uncompromised quality.
>
> And,the one I found at web look like for human and it is with
> capsules.
>
> These are what you all are using?
>
> Probiotic is used for diarrhea treatment or preventing them
> during the switch and main ingredients are acidphil something that
> found in Yogurt and give good friendly bacteria in the gutt.
>
> What these Slippery Elms do? It says soothing the intestine but
> which of the two are beter to dogs?It may depends on indivisual
> dogs too but.. in general?

Any plain old ordinary Slippery Elm will do. You can easily find
capsules, but I like powder, too, as you can stir it into things or
dump on top, and it's not so expensive that way. Slippery Elm coats
the mucous membranes of the entire digestive tract, soothing it and
promoting good transport, and also provides bulk where it is needed,
absorbing extra moisture. So it works for unsettled stools in either
direction. It is inexpensive and has absolutely no drug action, and
is not suppressive to any other modality.

It is harmless, but of course in the long run you need to find out
what is going on with an individual dog, and rectify the diet or
avoid the mistake. Long term serious digestive insufficiency is, as I
mentioned, a chronic disease issue which may be helped but not cured
by diet alone.

ginny and Tomo, totemo kashikoi ko

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

8c. Re: Slippery Elm brak
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:40 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Yassy!
I always get my SEBP here; http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/herb_index.htm#elm
TC
Giselle

> Hi, after having problems with Lamb feeding with my dog,I started
wondering about Slippery Elm.I know that when somebody's dogs get gut
problems,often times,Slippery Elms/probiotic are recommended to feed
with meal.
<snip>
What these Slippery Elms do? It says soothing the intestine but which
of the two are better to dogs?It may depends on individual dogs too
but.. in general?
>
> I was curious.
>
> thank you
>
> yassy

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. Re: 80/10/10?
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:20 am ((PDT))

We'll have to start our own support group "Rawfeeders with control issues" <G>

On 7/17/07, mwood8402 <mwood8402@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I do it too. I can't help it, I like things to be exact.
>
> -Melissa W
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laura Atkinson" <llatkinson@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > 'cause I started using one when I started raw feeding and it's just
> > habit. Probably latent control issues...whatever. I'm fine with it.
>
>
--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.saveourdogs.net
"Is that soap they're brainwashing you with environmentally safe?"

Messages in this topic (18)
________________________________________________________________________

9b. Re: 80/10/10?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:02 am ((PDT))

"Laura Atkinson" <llatkinson@...> wrote:
>
> We'll have to start our own support group "Rawfeeders with control
issues" <G>
>
*****
Been there done that!
The acronym is AIWB and it stands for Anal As I Wanna Be although at
the time more than a few people were seriously annoyed that they
weren't taken seriously enough.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (18)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. Re: Thanks Giselle for tips on getting meat supplies!
Posted by: "creativevazquez" creativevazquez@yahoo.com creativevazquez
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:19 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Giselle" <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Gloria!
> Did you post on carnivore feed supplier?
> http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/
>
>Thanks for tips giselle I will try some of the ideas.
Gloria
>

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

10b. Re: Thanks Giselle for tips on getting meat supplies!
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:35 pm ((PDT))

Hi, Gloria!
YVW, but the thanks goes to Lis. Its her list, she compiled
it. I just saved it, as it seems very complete, and yours is a common
request.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Giselle" <megan.giselle@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, Gloria!
> > Did you post on carnivore feed supplier?
> > http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CarnivoreFeed-Supplier/
> >
> >Thanks for tips Giselle I will try some of the ideas.
> Gloria

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

11a. Re: Lamb
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:21 am ((PDT))

>I wonder if she might just need more time to adjust to lamb.

Hi,Laurie. I introduced lamb last week and this week makes 2 weeks on Lamb. The reason I wrote that I may need to move on to the other protin and introduce later or pull out from menu was because she is on lamb 2 weeks when Saturday comes and more than 2 weeks on one protin could not be good I was assuming.

One dog can eat lamb or wahtever meat not do well can eat more than 2 weeks straight?

I feed Fish/seafood on Tues and Wednesday so,she is having break from lamb today and tomorrow though.

>Maybe, you could give her more time on raw and try it again later when her digestive >system is stronger.

Oh,OK. I did not know I then can introduce richier/fattier meat when she gets used to more variety and gutt gets stronger and do well.She be on raw 10th week this week.Lamb could have been too fast to introduce you think?

Well,I think I will try chicken and lamb this week more and if that was not getting good result;watery poo or loose poo,then,I will re-introduce much later then.She has not tried Lamb heart but is it as fatty as tongue/muscle boneless meat for lamb?I know heart is nutrient rich meat though.

>Does she do well with other meats than lamb and chicken at this point?

Well,she is good on chicken,beef,fish/seafood, and pork.Oh,and Turkey.

yassy

---------------------------------
Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (23)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

12. Help me, help the butcher!
Posted by: "cresco299" gentry.jeffrey@yahoo.com cresco299
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:32 pm ((PDT))

OK, So I thought I had found a really excellent source for organ meat
from a small local slaughtering house. While I was happy to take the
excess liver, heart, spleen etc off his hands at a very fair price,
what I really needed from him was his beef/pork pancreas for my dog
(Bailey) with EPI. I called this afternoon to see if the order was
ready to be picked up and he rather bashfully mentioned that he
couldn't find the pancreas. He said he and the local "inspector"
sifted through the entire animal but couldn't find it. He will be
slaughtering another cow on Thursday and will give it another go.

Without insulting my only source of a budget saving miracle, how do I
tactfully point him in the right direction (not that I know where to
look).

You have to enjoy the irony....

Jeff

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

13a. An Intro & A Question about Salmonella in Small Breed Pups
Posted by: "susan/foxfire" fxfireob@mac.com thadnsusan
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:00 pm ((PDT))

Hi,

I originally sent a version of this post to the RawMeatyBones list
and Pamela Picard suggested I ask it here. PK Shader from the SATZ
list also recommend I come here. So here's a bit of an intro and why
I've joined at this time.

I'm writing from Austin, Tx. We've been feeding a raw diet for 7 1/2
yrs and are very pleased. We started because Panza, our then-5-mo
GSD, had gotten vax-induced parvo. Panza is now 8 yo, though not the
picture of health due to his early health problems, he is still with
us and energetic. We also have a Great Pyr, Diotyma, who is 9 mo; and
Toto, a full coated tabby cat, who adopted us about a year or so ago.

We started out reading Billinghurst's BARF book but never really
followed it, but instead settled in on feeding RMB, Tripe & offal.
The dogs eat basically what we eat. We buy whole grass-fed/pastured
animals and get the processors to give us everything they can (state
laws won't let them give some parts e.g. brain) and we're very lucky
to have a great local buying coop for additional variety.

The reason I'm joining this group at this time, is up until now we've
just been doing our thing and haven't had much need for vets because
all health needs have been easily managed at home. But 2 months ago
we lost Modi, our 4 mo Swedish Vallhund puppy, who had been eating
raw since we brought him home at 8 wks old (thanks to SATS/Z he
learned to eat "easy" and chew his food during his first week with us:)

We are certain that Modi died from arsenic poisoning (the day he
died, he showed some distress during the day and then he suddenly
bled out that night and died within 10 mins; also we found some dead
rats in our yard) However the breeder is not so sure and is
seriously considering not giving us another pup. She is concerned
that it was salmonella and not poison, because she says poisons cause
neurological and clotting problems and not digestive problems (while
this may be true of warfarin it is not true of arsenic). In other
words, she is thinking that it is the raw diet that caused Modi to
die, not poisoning.

Just to give you a bit more background: Swedish Vallhunds are a rare
breed, new to AKC, their history is uncertain but they might be
related the Corgis, so are a smallish dog. The breeder is concerned
that since we've fed raw for some time that the level of salmonella
in our yard is dangerously high, too high for small breed pups. I've
never heard this, as I tend to not read all that commercial
propaganda, but she asked me to ease her mind so I thought this was a
great place to get the right information to share with her, and
wouldn't it be great if I could pass onto her an answer that might
just convince to become a nr breeder!

Since hearing about this I've been scouring the net trying to find
info to answer her questions, and came across this, which may very
well have triggered the breeder's fear:

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=2232&S=1

"Salmonella

Most people are somewhat familiar with Salmonella. They know it
represents a type of food poisoning, probably know it is associated
with diarrhea that can be severe, and may even know that Salmonella
species are bacteria. Most human cases of Salmonella infection cause
fever, diarrhea, and cramping that go away on their own, but in
children it can produce more severe disease. As with Campylobacter,
the young are more susceptible to more severe illness because they
are smaller and do not have mature immunity. The same is true with
puppies and kittens; adult animals are almost never affected by
Salmonella infection.

There is an important exception to the "Salmonella is rare in adult
dogs" rule and that is the case of dogs fed a raw food diet. It
has, unfortunately, become popular to feed raw foods to pets with the
idea that a raw food diet more closely approximates the natural diet
that the feline or canine body evolved to consume, and thus such a
diet should be healthier than commercially prepared foods. In fact,
the cooking of food is central to removing parasites, bacteria, and
bacterial toxins from food. A recent study evaluating raw food diets
found that 80% of food samples contained Salmonella bacteria and that
30% of the dogs in the study were shedding Salmonella bacteria in
their stool. Adult dogs are often asymptomatic but any infected
animal or person will shed the organism for at least 6 weeks thus
acting as a source of exposure to other animals or people. Salmonella
organisms are very difficult to remove from the environment and
easily survive 3 months in soil. Again, dogs used for therapy around
the elderly or children should be cultured for the presence of
Salmonella.

There are two syndromes associated with Salmonella: diarrhea and
sepsis. Salmonella bacteria, once consumed, attach to the intestine
and secrete toxins. The toxins produce diarrhea that can be severe
and even life-threatening in the young. If this were not bad enough,
some Salmonella can produce an even more serious "part two." These
bacteria are capable of invading the rest of the body through the
damaged intestine.

In young animals, the syndrome resulting is similar to that of canine
parvovirus, thus similar treatment is expected."

***********************************

Although we don't buy into this I just don't have the background to
dispel this type of propaganda - I'm a painter not a scientist:) So
I was hoping some folks here could help us address her concerns
regarding raw feeding, salmonella and small breed pups. Swedish
Vallhunds are a wonderful breed and it would be great to get a
breeder to really help keep the lines healthy, by giving her dogs the
great foundation of raw food.

Many many thanks
Susan

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

13b. Re: An Intro & A Question about Salmonella in Small Breed Pups
Posted by: "bluegracepwd" janea@tpg.com.au bluegracepwd
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:31 pm ((PDT))

find another breeder. Clearly you do not want to buy a dog from
someone who doesn't feed raw in any case.

My toy poodles are smaller than your dogs, and to suggest that the
size of the dog is effected differently from bacteria is ludicrious.

- Jane

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

14a. Are we feeding poison to our dogs/cats?
Posted by: "deep_ocean_of_sorrow" deep_ocean_of_sorrow@yahoo.com deep_ocean_of_sorrow
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:44 pm ((PDT))

*** Mod Note: TRIM YOUR POSTS ! ***

Thanks to everyone that replied, I suppose we cannot change the
world to
stop using unleaded gasoline..
but there are some amount of lead in cattle, correct(whether it be
little or a lot)? and like the quotes, wouldn't that mean that the
more we feed these to our dogs, the more of a chance they will suffer
from lead poisoning? Or is this a type of risk we're just taking to
avoid dog foods/cat foods....?

Kate
In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Lori Poirier <chaparraltrail@...> wrote:
>
> We undoubtedly are feeding some poisons to our raw-fed pets, just as
we are injesting them ourselves. Yet life goes on.
>
> > I was so freaked out, I couldn't sleep that night after reading this
> > part of the book. I was so scared that I might of fed lead, mercury
or
> > whatever chemicals to my dog... it was like a nightmare being in
bed,
> > awake.
>
> >What should we raw feeders do?!?
>
> These are legitimate concerns. Yet if we become immobilized because we
cannot find a pure and perfect solution, that is no good either. We
should buy the least contaminated food we can find and afford, and do
what we can not to make the problem worse (such as: don't pollute, lobby
for change, etc.). We should not risk stress-related diseases from
panicking over things that are beyond our control. Change what we can;
live with the rest.
>
> Lori
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 11816

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Help, I'm doing something wrong but dont know what!
From: Margaret Martell
1b. Re: Help, I'm doing something wrong but dont know what!
From: Andrea
1c. Re: Help, I'm doing something wrong but dont know what!
From: carnesbill

2a. Re: Are we feeding poison to our dogs/cats?
From: Bearhair
2b. Re: Are we feeding poison to our dogs/cats?
From: costrowski75
2c. Are we feeding poison to our dogs/cats?
From: Lori Poirier

3a. Leaving dogs for the weekend
From: Jenna Mahoney
3b. Re: Leaving dogs for the weekend
From: Giselle
3c. Re: Leaving dogs for the weekend
From: Andrea
3d. Re: Leaving dogs for the weekend
From: carnesbill
3e. Re: Leaving dogs for the weekend
From: Shannon Parker
3f. Re: Leaving dogs for the weekend
From: rosey031801

4a. Re: butcher cuts?
From: carnesbill
4b. Re: butcher cuts?
From: costrowski75
4c. Re: butcher cuts?
From: Lynne Noll
4d. Re: butcher cuts?
From: melaniearles

5a. Re: She doesn't use her paws to eat ?!?
From: tottime47

6a. Re: not eating with her paws
From: Lori Poirier
6b. Re: not eating with her paws
From: costrowski75

7a. tilapia and bonita
From: Carol Santangelo
7b. Re: tilapia and bonita
From: costrowski75
7c. Re: tilapia and bonita
From: Carol Santangelo

8. Kidney problems and raw
From: musiquedelanuit

9a. Re: 80/10/10?
From: mwood8402

10a. Re: supplement w/digestive enzymes?
From: Monica

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Help, I'm doing something wrong but dont know what!
Posted by: "Margaret Martell" zahrammm1@yahoo.com zahrammm1
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:11 am ((PDT))

"montana.loki" <montana.loki@yahoo.com> wrote: I am dedicated to raw and will not switch back (besides the cat
would mutiny if I did). Loki's bad skin allergies have cleared up
and she hasn't had to have any meds in almost two months. I jsut
need to get these lakes of poo to cease! Please help!
*********
Hi Jennifer -
Where Loki is acting normal every other way, you could try more bone in the diet to try and firm things up a bit. Maybe some slippery elm (digestive powder) may help, too.
Keep us informed of how things go.
Margaret & Zahra

---------------------------------
Looking for earth-friendly autos?
Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Help, I'm doing something wrong but dont know what!
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:59 am ((PDT))

Jennifer, it sounds like the loose stools started when you switched to
one meal a day, right? The variety you feed looks great, but since
most of it has a pretty decent fat content, it might be too
rich when it all comes in at once. Have you tried giving a mixed meal
of chicken (or other boney meal) along with the usual pork or beef
meaty meat? Since she sounds like she's feeling ok, I agree that more
bone in the meals will probably help things settle out. Let us know
how it goes.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "montana.loki" <montana.loki@...>
wrote:
> She eats beef (brisket, ribs, roasts and other meaty cuts), pork
> (roasts, riblets and other meaty meat cuts) and chicken (home
> ground with the organs - the cat will only eat whole chicken meat
> now but Loki will eat the ground if it is mixed with some smelly,
> nasty tripe or ground trachea). I know the ground isnt optimal and
> once the ground is used up we'll go back to chicken quarters.

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: Help, I'm doing something wrong but dont know what!
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:00 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "montana.loki" <montana.loki@...>
wrote:
>
> Any other ideas and suggestions?
>
> I am dedicated to raw and will not switch back (besides the cat
> would mutiny if I did). Loki's bad skin allergies have cleared up
> and she hasn't had to have any meds in almost two months. I jsut
> need to get these lakes of poo to cease! Please help!
>
If it were me, I would go back to the basics. Fast her for a day,
then start at the beginning all over again. Feed nothing but whole
chicken parts for a week, longer if stools still aren't solid. Once
she has solid stools, gradually add back protein sources at the rate
of one a week as long as all goes ok.

I would feed twice a day again for now, limit the organs and stay
heavy on bone. Don't feed any organs for at least a month, two
months would be better. Don't feed mushy stuff as mushy stuff in
often causes mushy stuff out.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Re: Are we feeding poison to our dogs/cats?
Posted by: "Bearhair" bearhair@spamcop.net bearhair61
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:02 am ((PDT))

Kate wrote:

> . . . what goes into the
>stomach of chickens, pork, and more specifically, cattle. Chemical
>contamination, pesticides, herbicides, heavy metals can still be in the
>fat, bones, or meat. . . .
> Important class of contaminants is heavy metals (arsenic, cadmium,
>and especially mercury)... increasingly finding their way into our food
>chain...EPA has been allowing the recycling of industry waste-- material
>loaded with heavy metals--into commercial fertilizers...Heavy metals are
>not destroyed over time. . . .
> . . . the bones of American cattle contain high levels of
>lead, owing to our prolonged usage of leaded gasoline over several
>decades. The only safe bone meal nowadays is from cattle raised in South
>America, Ethiopia, or some other country with few
>automobiles . . .
>I was so freaked out, I couldn't sleep that night after reading this
>part of the book. I was so scared that I might of fed lead, mercury or
>whatever chemicals to my dog... it was like a nightmare being in bed,
>awake.
>
>I know that there are no any problems with the pet food(yuck) lead
>poisoning, but its very concerning me of what I may be giving my beloved
>dog. Should we all start switching to Whole Foods meat (or any other
>natural, organic food stores we can rely) or something? I'm pretty sure
>its a bit more expensive than the normal butcher meat or meats you can
>buy at supermarkets...
>What should we raw feeders do?!?

Above all, we do our best, given our resources (both time and money).
Remember that feeding raw is a huge step up from any other care that you can
give your dog.

I have to get into the office, so I'll address just the lead issue first.

Direct exposure of livestock to lead is sufficiently common to make a Google
search easy. These all deal with acute poisoning:
>http://www2.dpi.qld.gov.au/health/4213.html
>http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/211800.htm
>http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/agdex791

This provides more information on chronic lead poisoning:
>http://www.ansci.cornell.edu/plants/toxicagents/lead/lead.html

And this Canadian veterinary article tested herds where a single animal was
diagnosed and treated for acute lead poisoning, noting that the entire herd
is rarely, if ever, considered for exposure if they are asymptomatic:
"This preliminary investigative field study demonstrated that between 4% and
12% of asymptomatic cattle had toxic concentrations of lead in their blood.
Another 7% to 40% had concentrations of lead in the blood that would be
considered high normal, suggesting substantial lead exposure."
>http://www.larounds.ca/crus/lav10_02_eng.pdf

Since "[a]nimals grazing in pastures bordering highways of countries where
leaded gasoline is still used have higher background lead concentrations,"
simply purchasing from Whole Foods is not the answer. I believe you can have
a farm achieve organic certification even though it is bordering a highway.

Industrialized society is the ultimate source of these contaminants, and
except for a global cataclysm (which is likely to only make things worse),
we're not going to be able to avoid these contaminants without moving to
deserted islands and raising our own meat. The information you provide makes
the push for "know your farmer" ever more important - I think that the best
you can possibly do in these times is if you can visit the farm, see that he
doesn't have his grandfather's Model A in the pasture, is surrounding only by
country roads, and is certified organic.

Lora

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: Are we feeding poison to our dogs/cats?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:20 am ((PDT))

"deep_ocean_of_sorrow" <deep_ocean_of_sorrow@...> wrote:
>>
> What should we raw feeders do?!?
*****
Feed the best species appropriate diet (a concept that is apparently
lost on Dr. Pitcairn) one can, knowing it will always be better than
the alternatives.

Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

2c. Are we feeding poison to our dogs/cats?
Posted by: "Lori Poirier" chaparraltrail@yahoo.com chaparraltrail
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:02 am ((PDT))

We undoubtedly are feeding some poisons to our raw-fed pets, just as we are injesting them ourselves. Yet life goes on.

> I was so freaked out, I couldn't sleep that night after reading this
> part of the book. I was so scared that I might of fed lead, mercury or
> whatever chemicals to my dog... it was like a nightmare being in bed,
> awake.

>What should we raw feeders do?!?

These are legitimate concerns. Yet if we become immobilized because we cannot find a pure and perfect solution, that is no good either. We should buy the least contaminated food we can find and afford, and do what we can not to make the problem worse (such as: don't pollute, lobby for change, etc.). We should not risk stress-related diseases from panicking over things that are beyond our control. Change what we can; live with the rest.

Lori

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

3a. Leaving dogs for the weekend
Posted by: "Jenna Mahoney" hav.lover@yahoo.com hav.lover
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:04 am ((PDT))

I was wondering what dog owners on this list do when they have to leave
for vacation as far as feeding. I am leaving my two small dogs with
their breeder who does at this time not feed raw. I want to make
feeding my dogs easy on her.I know commerical raw diets are not
endorsed on this list but what is the opinion if it is just for a few
days?
Jenna

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

3b. Re: Leaving dogs for the weekend
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:49 am ((PDT))

Hi, Jenna!
This is not hard to do; prepackage everything into single meal zippy
bags. Label each bag as, say, Breakfast for Muffy at 8am on 7/17/07 or
Dinner for Zippy at 5 pm on 7/17/07 or whatever fits. Bag both dog's
meals for a day into a larger bag.

Type up a list of how much to take out in advance, and any other
pertinent info, such as where to feed them (in their crates?), to thaw
completely before feeding, what time, what to do with leftovers, etc.
Don't assume any prior knowledge even if you have discussed raw
feeding exhaustively with him/her.

Make the meals easy, something readily accepted by both dogs, nothing
they're 'iffy' about. Leave out organs if this produces loose stools,
make the meals a little bonier than usual if meatymeat meals tend to
do the same. Time enough to add organs back in and cut back on the
bony meals when you all get back home.
Freeze it all up and pack it into a cooler for the trip to the
breeder/babysitter. She may not even need to transfer it to a freezer
if its only for a few days.
Who knows, you may just have a raw feeding convert when you get back!
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

> I was wondering what dog owners on this list do when they have to leave
> for vacation as far as feeding. I am leaving my two small dogs with
> their breeder who does at this time not feed raw. I want to make
> feeding my dogs easy on her. I know commercial raw diets are not
> endorsed on this list but what is the opinion if it is just for a few
> days?
> Jenna
>

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

3c. Re: Leaving dogs for the weekend
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:05 am ((PDT))

I'm going on vacation for a week and my bf's mom is dog sitting for
us. I'll put meals in plastic baggies with dog's name on each one.
All she has to do is take the baggie out, thaw if desired, and hand to
dog. If your dogs eat once a day, you can write that on the baggie
too. If your sitter isn't super comfortable with different kinds of
foods you can package chicken a la chicken for the time you'll be
gone. I'd be wary of having the sitter feed anything the dogs don't
usually have, though. I once left Geiger with my parents for a weekend
with duck for the first time. They didn't really appreciate the severe
gas and loose stools. Hopefully your sitter will be ok feeding chicken
quarters, but if not, make sure the dogs won't have a reaction to
the "stuff" in the ground mixture.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Jenna Mahoney" <hav.lover@...>
wrote:
>
> I was wondering what dog owners on this list do when they have to
> leave for vacation as far as feeding. I am leaving my two small dogs
> with their breeder who does at this time not feed raw. I want to make
> feeding my dogs easy on her.

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

3d. Re: Leaving dogs for the weekend
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:07 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Jenna Mahoney" <hav.lover@...>
wrote:
>
> I know commerical raw diets are not
> endorsed on this list but what is the opinion if it is just for
> a few days?

For a few days, you could put some ground beef and ground turkey
into some ziplock bags (beef in some bags, turkey in others). Make
each bag the size of one meal. If the breeder is adventurous you
could put a chicken quarter in a bag for a meal (if that is an
appropriate size meal for your dog). If you are only gone for 2 or
3 days, the breeder woudln't even have to freeze them.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

3e. Re: Leaving dogs for the weekend
Posted by: "Shannon Parker" mrbatisse@yahoo.ca mrbatisse
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:07 am ((PDT))

HI Jenna,

When I leave my dogs for the weekend, I prepare all of their food ahead of time, each meal in individual plasticwear, labelled. Since I don't expect my dogsitters to feed them on their floor, I cut up the pieces small enough that they will eat them out of the bowl, but large enough that they still have to chew them thoroughly.

Hope this helps!

Shannon

Jenna Mahoney <hav.lover@yahoo.com> wrote:
I was wondering what dog owners on this list do when they have to leave
for vacation as far as feeding.

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________

3f. Re: Leaving dogs for the weekend
Posted by: "rosey031801" rosey031801@sbcglobal.net rosey031801
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:09 am ((PDT))

***EDITED BY MODERATOR. TRIM YOUR MESSAGES THEY WILL BE DELETED.***

Jenna,
I have to leave my dog from time to time and I get boneless cause it
doesn't have the "EEK" factor. I make hamburger patties (raw) with
seasoning so he will readily eat it, alomg with boneless chicken.
Freeze all and send it with him. I always tell them it is ok if he
doesn't eat well while I am gone, so they don't worry. He will make
it up when he gets home. A breeder or kennel can just put it in the
kennel, should be alot easier than a home. My dog sitter says the
worst part is that her dogs want it. He does just fine.
Cheryl

> > I was wondering what dog owners on this list do when they have to
leave
> > for vacation as far as feeding. I am leaving my two small dogs
with
> > their breeder who does at this time not feed raw. I want to make
> > feeding my dogs easy on her. I know commercial raw diets are not
> > endorsed on this list but what is the opinion if it is just for a
few
> > days?
> > Jenna

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: butcher cuts?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:07 am ((PDT))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "linoleum5017" <linoleum5017@...>
wrote:
>
Something that no one mentioned yet is that pork belly is the part of
the pig that bacon is sliced from.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: butcher cuts?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:10 am ((PDT))

Pi <scribblekitten@...> wrote:

> If you're not scared of a bit of fat in your own diet, bbq
marinated
> pork belly is one of my personal favourite meals.
*****
I have no problem with fat in my diet and however one wants to eat it
is okay by me but within the context of limited doggiedollars, I'd
say there are more broadly useful pork body parts.

> I do feed Pi quite lot of fat and always figured pork belly would
be a
> good thing for the odd meal for him. I think it's because he's
pretty
> active and uses a lot of energy? Or maybe I'm just making things up
here
> and really have no idea what I'm talking about!
*****
I think there are more broadly useful pork body parts.

It's very easy to buy fatty pork parts, one doesn't have to go out of
one's way to find them. Certainly a shoulder roast (either blade or
arm) would provide plenty of fat; it also offers a fine amount of
meat and a bone to work on. Same thing can be said for spare ribs.

My dogs also get a goodly amount of dietary fat, and when I am
feeding through lean meat like emu or venison I absolutely will add
fat trim to the meals. The concept ain't lost on me, I promise!
Chris O

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

4c. Re: butcher cuts?
Posted by: "Lynne Noll" linoleum5017@yahoo.com linoleum5017
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:02 am ((PDT))

Interesting! I'll file that away with the photo of tot tasting pig's snout. Pictures do say a thousand words!

lol,
Lynne

carnesbill <carnesw@bellsouth.net> wrote:
--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "linoleum5017" <linoleum5017@...>
wrote:
>
Something that no one mentioned yet is that pork belly is the part of
the pig that bacon is sliced from.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

---------------------------------
We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

4d. Re: butcher cuts?
Posted by: "melaniearles" SibeMaya@gmail.com melaniearles
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:06 am ((PDT))

"costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:

> My dogs also get a goodly amount of dietary fat, and when I am
> feeding through lean meat like emu or venison I absolutely will add
> fat trim to the meals. The concept ain't lost on me, I promise!
> Chris O
>

Chris -

What do you mean by fat trim? Do you take off the skin from chickens
or something and just put it in the dog's meal? I'm wondering because
I too feed through lean meats and haven't really been sure of what to
do to provide them so fat.

Melani

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: She doesn't use her paws to eat ?!?
Posted by: "tottime47" tottime@aol.com tottime47
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:45 am ((PDT))

Hi Pam,

You know to me it doesn't sound like Christine is not liking you
anymore.....it sounds like just the opposite.

She knows you are unhappy with her and senses you are upset with
her........

That's why she lays across the room and looks at you.....to see if
you've changed your mind about her........

That's why she won't sleep with you anymore, she senses that somehow
she's done something wrong and feels you don't want her there
anymore..........

Did the vet check her out carefully? Mine wasn't chewing up food by
himself, like I figured he should be, after 3 months on the diet,
had a tooth cleaning and the vet found a badly infected
tooth............

He also has a damaged disk (sp) in his neck, so he can't pull & tear
like some of the dogs do......make sure there's not a physical
problem with her...........

If there isn't any, then I would lovingly feed her, by hand if need
be, at the start and go from there..........make it a special time
between the two of you and give plenty of
praise for every bite she eats...................

Since she likes crunchy foods, maybe you could try offering her
partly frozen things that have more crunch? She is eating the mix
in the morning so it's not that she won't eat, just can't seem to
eat what you want her to the way you are presenting it......

Remeber, she does want to please you.......for whatever reason she
just can't right now and she knows it...... that's why I think she
lays across the room and that's why she won't sleep with you...

Carol,Charkee & Moli (changed her name, lol,hope I don't turn her
neurotic)

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mz_boomer2" <mz_boomer2@...>
wrote:

> My main concern was my female lab/Basenji mix (Christine).She
just picks
> at the food won't eat again for another day or two.
So, now the 4th week have introduced beef
> liver, heart and ground beef with raw egg.
>
> I have found the wonderful world of salmon oil thanks to this
> list! And have proceeded to make a daily "breakfast" this week of a
> raw hamburger pattie with 1 egg(no shells)and 4 each 1,000mg salmon
> oil caps cut and drained into the mixture. Christine has taken very
> well to this mix. She ate it up like her old canned food she loved.

I know I am the bad guy to her now...she doesn't sleep with me
anymore and she just glares at me across the room!

> Pam
> Christine & Halo
>

Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: not eating with her paws
Posted by: "Lori Poirier" chaparraltrail@yahoo.com chaparraltrail
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:48 am ((PDT))

> Enjoying? Would you feed your kids Twinkies because they aren't "enjoying"
> healthy foods?

Actually...YES! As a temporary measure, if that's what it took to transition to a healthy diet and lifestyle. (Hypothetical...I haven't had to resort to the "Twinkie Diet" yet!)

> Someone has to be the adult and make proper decisions for those who can't!

Christine is unfortunately quite capable of the decision of what she will not eat...and right now, she has decided that she will not eat a proper diet. A dog in the wild probably would not deliberately starve itself into nutritional deficiencies. But with human interaction comes humanization of canine behavior, and a civilized dog just might.

I am not knowledgeable enough to suggest specific "half-way" measures or feeding to help transition her to raw, without a full-blown declaration of World War Three...possibly including Pam's husband, who sounds less than happy about all of this. Does anyone have any suggestions that can actually encourage her dog to eat and enjoy the diet her body was designed to thrive on?

A "perfect" raw diet that remains in the bowl uneaten benefits no one...

Lori

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________

6b. Re: not eating with her paws
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:38 am ((PDT))

Lori Poirier <chaparraltrail@...> wrote:
> I am not knowledgeable enough to suggest specific "half-way"
measures or feeding to help transition her to raw, without a full-
blown declaration of World War Three...possibly including Pam's
husband, who sounds less than happy about all of this. Does anyone
have any suggestions that can actually encourage her dog to eat and
enjoy the diet her body was designed to thrive on?
*****
There is no question that half-way (and quarter-way and sixteenth-way
measures) are often needed to get things rolling and keep them
rolling. There is no question that the list archives are filled with
suggestions for introducing new foods, introducing organs,
introducing whole bones, re-introducing raw and, in fact--introducing
raw.

Even if one were to review the last couple weeks one could find
plenty of recommendations. The raw feeding constituency of this list
has always been eager to share successes. Perhaps you youself might
want to delve into the archives for some recommendations.

What is likely to lead to WW3 is the assumption that kibble is better
than raw. If you don't go there, it won't happen.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

7a. tilapia and bonita
Posted by: "Carol Santangelo" carol.santangelo@gmail.com santangelo_carol
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 7:48 am ((PDT))

I have a friend who has a boat and goes fishing often...he said he can get
me all the Bonita I want--for free. Is that an OK fish to feed?

Also, I found whole Tilapia at Walmart. There were two per package and each
package was a little over two pounds for just over $4. Is Tilapia an OK
fish to feed?

As of now, I have only given some sardines once. I have been feeding raw
for about 2 months. Both, my Bullmastiff and my French Bulldog, loved the
sardines. I gave it as a treat last week. I know giving some sardines to a
Bullmastiff sounds like a joke...but he did like them and I'm sure he would
like some more fish that's a little more of an appropriate size for him.

Thanks.
Carol (Bruno and Zoe's mom)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

7b. Re: tilapia and bonita
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:58 am ((PDT))

"Carol Santangelo" <carol.santangelo@...> wrote:
>
> I have a friend who has a boat and goes fishing often...he said he
can get
> me all the Bonita I want--for free. Is that an OK fish to feed?
*****
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/bonito
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/bonito
http://www.oceansalive.org/eat.cfm?subnav=bestandworst
http://www.mbayaq.org/cr/seafoodwatch.asp

>Is Tilapia an OK
> fish to feed?
*****
It's farmed, which carries its own burden. In addition to the usual
drawbacks of farmed protein (whether fish or fowl or livestock),
melamine has been found in fish food. This may or may not be an
issue to predators, probably not but it's also probably too early to
say for sure.

It's a mild white fish useful for protein variety but offers no Omega
3 support. Many dogs refuse to it eat. See if you can find a small
package to test with.

I know giving some sardines to a
> Bullmastiff sounds like a joke...but he did like them and I'm sure
he would
> like some more fish that's a little more of an appropriate size for
him.
*****
Whole raw sardines are not a joke, not even for a big guy! It's okay
that they're small for him, they more than make up in nutritional
value what they lack in size. A fish that is the "right" size for
him a. may not offer similar nutritional support, b. may be more
expensive than it's worth, and/or c. may not be the least bit
appealing to him.

Bonita sounds like a good choice; tilapia not so.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

7c. Re: tilapia and bonita
Posted by: "Carol Santangelo" carol.santangelo@gmail.com santangelo_carol
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:11 am ((PDT))

Thanks Chris. You are such a great help.

Carol

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8. Kidney problems and raw
Posted by: "musiquedelanuit" taylor.lhb@hotmail.com musiquedelanuit
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:03 am ((PDT))

Hello everyone!
I have been talking to my Dad about feeding raw for a few months now
and I have all but convinced him that it's the way to go. The problem
is that his Golden Retrievers was poisoned during the recent pet-food
recall and his kidneys were severely damaged. As a result, his vet put
him on a Royal Canin low protein diet. My Dad is afraid to start
feeding raw because he feels that it is too high in protein and would
be a dangerous chance to take with a sick dog.

I know a raw diet would be beneficial, but I don't know what to say to
him to convince him. Does anyone have aditional information on this
topic? What should I tell him?

Thanks so much!
Taylor (and Loki) in Montreal

Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. Re: 80/10/10?
Posted by: "mwood8402" mwood8402@hotmail.com mwood8402
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:06 am ((PDT))

I do it too. I can't help it, I like things to be exact.

-Melissa W

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laura Atkinson" <llatkinson@...>
wrote:
>
> 'cause I started using one when I started raw feeding and it's just
> habit. Probably latent control issues...whatever. I'm fine with it.

Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. Re: supplement w/digestive enzymes?
Posted by: "Monica" mommyof2gals@comcast.net mommyof2gals
Date: Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:08 am ((PDT))

>>You might want to look back at some of the messages in the
>>archives....search on pancreatitis. Lots of good info on feeding.

I did a search in the archives, but all I seem to find is information how
raw diets helped people's pancreatic dogs, without specific info on WHAT and
HOW to feed. My dog has always been on raw and is suffering anyway, so I
need to know if anyone can tell me how to adjust his meals to make him feel
better.

I've already removed the skin off the chicken quarter and it has not helped.
If I remove the bone and just feed chicken, he gets horrible diarrhea. I
can't go smaller than a chicken quarter or he'll gulp it down. I am at a
loss.

Thanks

Monica and Loki

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/

<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/join

(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

------------------------------------------------------------------------