Feed Pets Raw Food: Dec 5, 2007

Wednesday, December 5, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12347

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: marrow bones
From: Giselle
1b. Re: marrow bones
From: gbongi1
1c. Re: marrow bones
From: johkemp

2a. Re: Fish and Game
From: carnesbill

3a. Re: Chicken skin question
From: sfed57
3b. Re: Chicken skin question
From: carnesbill
3c. Re: Chicken skin question
From: Sandee Lee
3d. Re: Chicken skin question
From: Jen S

4a. Re: A little leery on starting
From: sfed57
4b. Re: A little leery on starting
From: Jessica MacMillan
4c. Re: A little leery on starting
From: costrowski75

5a. Yikes --- Is it DETOX??
From: Dawn
5b. Re: Yikes --- Is it DETOX??
From: Casey Post
5c. Re: Yikes --- Is it DETOX??
From: costrowski75
5d. Re: Yikes --- Is it DETOX??
From: carnesbill

6a. Re: Puzzled by duration of loose stools
From: katkellm
6b. Re: Puzzled by duration of loose stools
From: carnesbill

7a. Re: How to stop him from traveling around the house with food
From: Sandee Lee

8.1. Re: Hello, new here
From: johkemp
8.2. Re: Hello, new here
From: johkemp

9.1. Re: Hello! I just joined.
From: johkemp

10.1. Re: New to Raw
From: johkemp

11a. Re: Having a Sheep Processed
From: johkemp

12. afraid to feed turkey necks
From: outcats4@aol.com

13. Wild Rabbit Organ
From: Susanne MacLeod

Messages
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1a. Re: marrow bones
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 11:51 am ((PST))

Hi, Tiffany!
Sorry, can't recommend marrow (soup, dog, recreational) bones.
These are very hard bones from a cow. Imagine how dense they have to be to
hold up an entire cow! They will crack or wear down a dog's teeth over time.
And, being bare, they have no redeeming qualities.

Beef bones are mostly non edible, but if you can find some rib bones in a
slab of 3-4 or some meaty neck bones not cut into small pieces, these will
make loverly chewies! Just offer when you want them to occupy themselves and
they can spend their time picking the meaty bits off and flossing. when the
bones are bare, time to toss them in the trash!

Dogs that are offered larger, more challenging portions for their meals
often don't need the extra chew time offered by the bony parts once grown,
but some busy dogs still do. Depending on your dog's size(s), I'd make
attempts to offer larger, more engaging portions to satisfy them.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On Dec 5, 2007 2:05 PM, tiffany.contempopainting <tiffcurran@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi everyone. We have gotten some great advise here and the dogs are
> doing great now with their raw diet. We are still in the beginning stages
> though. I try to balance out their food over time. I was wondering if marrow
> bones are ok to give them to chew on. They don't have any meat so it
> wouldn't be a meal. They used to love rawhide until I found out how bad they
> are and took them. Just wondering if I could substitute them for the marrow
> bones or if it would cause an upset stomach. Thanks for all the advice.
> Tiffany
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (11)
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1b. Re: marrow bones
Posted by: "gbongi1" gbongi1@comcast.net gbongi1
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 12:24 pm ((PST))

Isabel I do feed these to my dog Only very very meaty ones though.
Once he starts gnawing on the bone I take it away.
I do believe he chipped a tooth on one but I cannot verify. Just be
careful.
~g~

Messages in this topic (11)
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1c. Re: marrow bones
Posted by: "johkemp" johkemp@yahoo.com.au johkemp
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 2:54 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ondine" <ondine_03@...> wrote:
>
> Is there a book or website out there that tells newbies EXACTLY
what to feel the puppy? This would be enormously helpful for us...
>
These are the links that I use fairly often and sent to people
thinking about a raw diet and what some more information on how to go
about it. The first article is very useful to send to the nay-sayers
and kibble feeders who will give you a hard time.

Good luck,

An article called 'Dogs are Carnivores"
http://www.dogtorj.net/id51.html
A feeding guide published by a vet who advocates raw feeding
http://www.rawmeatybones.com/diet/exp-di...
A website debunking some of the many myths regarding raw feeding and
bones.
http://rawfed.com/myths/

Messages in this topic (11)
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2a. Re: Fish and Game
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 12:24 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "gbongi1" <gbongi1@...> wrote:
>
> Are ther any game that on ewould not feed their dog??
> Also about fish.
> I catch White and yellow perch, tog, blues, and striper. Can I
> feed my dog these items whole?

Rule of thumb: If you would eat it, its ok to feed your dog.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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3a. Re: Chicken skin question
Posted by: "sfed57" sfed57@yahoo.ca sfed57
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 12:24 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jaygaughan" <jaygaughan@...> wrote:
>
>I used to take all the skin off the chicken when I first started, I
wasnt sure how the dogs would react to the new diet so I didnt want to
much too soon. They had no problem converting to raw at all so in no
time I wasnt trimming the skin at all, they get it how it is.
Shawna

Messages in this topic (6)
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3b. Re: Chicken skin question
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 12:24 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jaygaughan" <jaygaughan@...> wrote:
>
> What are your thoughts on chicken skin?

As long as stools are good, feed the backs the way you get them. Just
hand them to the dog. I have never had to do anything to them.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (6)
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3c. Re: Chicken skin question
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 4:37 pm ((PST))

Feed the skin and add some meat...backs are far too bony to be fed by
themselves.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "jaygaughan" <jaygaughan@yahoo.com>

I just read that chicken skin is considered part of the raw meat
portion of a raw diet.

Messages in this topic (6)
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3d. Re: Chicken skin question
Posted by: "Jen S" zordan@optonline.net sigp2301
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 4:48 pm ((PST))

I leave the skin on when I feed them, and I really only feed them in
the cases where I've got a bunch of stew meat or ground stuff and he's
not going to be getting any/enough bone otherwise. Often I will pack
the meat around a back or two (109 lb dog), and freeze it so it's
almost like an RMB.

JenZ and the Little Dog

Messages in this topic (6)
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4a. Re: A little leery on starting
Posted by: "sfed57" sfed57@yahoo.ca sfed57
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 12:24 pm ((PST))

Hi Kimmie,

I was also leary on starting the raw diet. I have two husky puppies, a
one year old and a 7 month old. My older girl had the runs from the
day I brought her home until the day I started them on a raw diet a few
months ago. My younger girl would throw up her food a few times a week
like yours until I started them on the raw diet. I had them on the
best quality "premium" kibble I could find and all I have to say is
switch to raw!!! They love it and no more digestion problems. It was
scary at first with all the myths about bones and salmonela and whatnot
but after I took the plunge I could never go back. My girls are
healthier and happier and thats whats most important, so keep reading
here like I did and ask lots of questions until that nervous feeling
goes away and you can try the best possible diet ever for your dog!
Shawna

Messages in this topic (6)
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4b. Re: A little leery on starting
Posted by: "Jessica MacMillan" spotted101@hotmail.com jessica.macmillan
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 12:24 pm ((PST))

Hey Kimmie -

I know most folks who feed raw do lots of reading and researching, playing for awhile and then take the plunge. I read for about 6 months, gave out some chicken wings and then the jumped in with both feet. It even took me a while - which is odd since my mom has been feeding raw with great success for several years now.

I finally bought a large bag of WHOLE chicken wings, a food processor and locked up my barrel of kibble (brand new bag too). I bought a few veggies and some ripened fruit, ground it up and fed wings and I was on my way.

I love it, the dogs are doing great and Simmie (my elder GSD) doesn't have to be put under to have her teeth cleaned.

A couple of notes:

1. Marrow bones can be very rich for some dogs and if you have a dog with a queasy stomach, I am not sure I would do marrows, especially with LOTS of fat on them.

2. Most dogs are grass eaters, even raw-fed dogs. not much you can do for that.

3. Stick to something very basic - one protein - most people start with chicken, either wings (my dogs are great chewers), carcasses, etc. Do a week or two of that and GRADUALLY add other sources.

Take your time, figure out what you want to do and go from there.

Good luck.

Jess M.
& The Shepherd Girls (who love their raw food)

_________________________________________________________________
Put your friends on the big screen with Windows Vista® + Windows Live™.
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Messages in this topic (6)
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4c. Re: A little leery on starting
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 2:21 pm ((PST))

Jessica MacMillan <spotted101@...> wrote:
>> I finally bought a large bag of WHOLE chicken wings, a food
processor and locked up my barrel of kibble (brand new bag too). I
bought a few veggies and some ripened fruit, ground it up and fed wings
and I was on my way.
*****
You do know of course that while relying on chicken wings, food
processors, veggies, fruits and ground anything may be a charmingly
naive way to start feeding raw, it is not the easiest (I think that's
fairly obvious!) or most healthy, nor is it particularly appropriate.
I urge you--if you are still feeding this way--to toss the food
processor (or use it for human food), forget the vegetation and move to
larger and meatier--and whole--edible bones.

If you have not been on this list very long, I understand why you might
consider my recommendations distressing. But dogs have been wolves
longer than you've been feeding this ground up stuff. Your lovely
shepherds deserve to be fed like the wolves they are. Please browse
the archives and rethink what you're feeding.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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5a. Yikes --- Is it DETOX??
Posted by: "Dawn" dawnrin@yahoo.com dawnrin
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 1:56 pm ((PST))

Hi Everyone... I'm a newbie with a question........
My Berner has been on raw for about a month now and I'm hoping that
what is going on with him is detox. His skin has sores all over the
place (no itching, thank goodness) and he's lost tons of hair too.
Poor guy... I'm not giving up though. Anyone think it's detox besides
me??
Thanks!!!!

Dawn
Momma to Berners Tango (6 y.o.) and Rio (8 mo. old)

Messages in this topic (4)
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5b. Re: Yikes --- Is it DETOX??
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 1:58 pm ((PST))

>His skin has sores all over the
> place (no itching, thank goodness) and he's lost tons of hair too.
> Poor guy... I'm not giving up though. Anyone think it's detox besides
> me??

Nope. I would wonder if he's got ringworm or something, though...

Casey

Messages in this topic (4)
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5c. Re: Yikes --- Is it DETOX??
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 2:26 pm ((PST))

"Dawn" <dawnrin@...> wrote:>.
> Poor guy... I'm not giving up though. Anyone think it's detox besides
> me??
*****
I do not think it's detox. I don't think much if anything is ever
detox in the sense of dismissing it as a minor issue. I think there is
something wrong with your bud and you need to get on it. Time to see a
vet I think, or the medical professional of your choice.

Ringworm?
Mange?

Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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5d. Re: Yikes --- Is it DETOX??
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 5:01 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Dawn" <dawnrin@...> wrote:
>
> Anyone think it's detox besides me??

If there was a such thing as detox, it might be but since detox is a
mythical condition, it can't be. What is described by some as "detox"
is actually the body learning to digest something it has never seen
before. "Detox" means to rid the body of poisons or adictive
substances and this doesn't happen in switching dogs to raw.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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6a. Re: Puzzled by duration of loose stools
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 2:53 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mozookpr" <mozookpr@...> wrote:
. She is a Sheltie, coming up on 5
> months old. She eats her meals with great gusto, two a day, and the
> amount of intake is right on target for her estimated adult weight.

Hi Wendy,
I would, as Andrea suggested, remove the skin and fat from the chicken
for now and divide the amount of food you are feeding into 3 meals
instead of 2. Its possible that at 5 months she is just not ready to
handle that amount of food twice a day. Also, i know that you are
feeding her the correct amount for her projected adult weight, but it
is possible that you might be overfeeding her. She might grow up to
be slightly smaller than breed standard, or she, as an individual,
just might not require that much food. So, you could also try cutting
the amount you feed by a smidgen. KathyM

Messages in this topic (4)
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6b. Re: Puzzled by duration of loose stools
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 5:00 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mozookpr" <mozookpr@...> wrote:
>
> A fecal came back positive for worms
> (round and I forget what other kind.) She has been treated
> for that, so should be parasite-free.

I would have her re-tested just to be sure they are gone.

> Is this a normal period of adjustment that will correct itself?

If the problem is diet related, it should correct itself very soon.
I have some doubts that it is diet related.

> Should I increase bone?

Yes

> Increase meat?

> Or should I try smaller, more frequent meals?

Yes, definately.

> She is currently getting about one chicken quarter a
> day, divided into two meals.

That sounds a little heavy to me. I would lighten up some.

> The few days, she would eat a quarter
> all at once, and then more for the smaller second meal, but has
> slowed down a bit since then.

Don't allow her to do that. If she eats a whole quarter, no more
food for at least 24 hours.

> Could it be that she is the odd dog that
> just can't tolerate chicken?

It's possible but I doubt it.

> It just seems like there are so many variables to
> consider, whilst I tear out my hair trying to FIX this.

There are many variables but you should deal with all of them at
once. Feed less, feed more bone, check her for parasites again,
skin the chicken pieces. If no improvement in 2 weeks, try another
protein source. If no improvement in another two weeks, I'm
convinced it's not a diet problem, rather a body part that isn't
working correctly.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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7a. Re: How to stop him from traveling around the house with food
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 4:45 pm ((PST))

Jay,

I do realize many large breed dogs eat from elevated stands and before going
raw, I used them myself.
However when feeding appropriately sized raw foods, it's not going to be
easy or comfortable for him to stand over a bowl to eat an entire chicken, a
turkey half, a pork roast, beef brisket, racks of ribs, etc. This takes a
while and is much more comfortable for the dog to have a place to lay down
and leisurely enjoy his meal.
Unless you are feeding ground or tiny food, a bowl isn't going to work very
well.

I'm sure as a Dane owner, you are aware of the bloat studies which indicated
dogs fed from elevated stands bloated at a greater rate than those who were
not?

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "jaygaughan" <jaygaughan@yahoo.com>
As for eating at an elevated feeding stand. He, just like my other
Danes will.
This is just like having my children stay in the kitchen and eat,
it's not an option.
With praise and or immediate correction my dogs listen very well and
obey all commands. They live to please us. You just need to give them
the tools to do so.

Lying down while eating isn't bad. For a dog the size of a Dane
trying to swallow while your head is pointed down at the floor isn't
easy. Stands help in many ways. I know many Danes that eat this way.

Messages in this topic (11)
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8.1. Re: Hello, new here
Posted by: "johkemp" johkemp@yahoo.com.au johkemp
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 4:47 pm ((PST))

Welcome to the group and a whole new world of feeding!!

The first link is to Tom Lonsdale's feeding guide for dogs and cats.
From that you can go to his Raw Meaty Bones site.

Good luck,

A feeding guide published by a vet who advocates raw feeding
http://www.rawmeatybones.com/diet/exp-di...
A website debunking some of the many myths regarding raw feeding and
bones.
http://rawfed.com/myths/

Messages in this topic (46)
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8.2. Re: Hello, new here
Posted by: "johkemp" johkemp@yahoo.com.au johkemp
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 4:48 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, rottinginblood@... wrote:
>
> i just have a slight question.....me and my boyfriend will be
looking to adopt older cats (like 5+(the ones that NO one seems to
want they all want the little kittens! ugh! id be afraid of stepping
on it lol!) but um....if the cats 12 yrs old how would you manage to
switch them?
>

Hi Jesse

It depends on the cat. Our three were switched when we brought home
our new pup 12 months ago although they have always had some raw -
wings, necks, offcuts etc. My oldest girl, now 15, had no issues and
adapted straight away. She crunches through bones and now finishes
her meals rather than walking away halfway through. She also stopped
vomitting and has put on much needed weight. The seven year old boy
took longer and still prefers ground over bones. The two year old
girl was the most stubborn. She still gets some Innova biscuits as
she was refusing to eat and started breaking into the neighbour's
house to steal food there!!

Good luck,

Jo
>

Messages in this topic (46)
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9.1. Re: Hello! I just joined.
Posted by: "johkemp" johkemp@yahoo.com.au johkemp
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 4:48 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Carole Poh" <carole@...> wrote:
>

> She is currently coming to 4 months old and I've been feeding her 1
chicken neck & back and 1 wing per meal. Is that too little cos she
always seems hungry. Sometimes I throw in 1 more chicken back and
she just poohs more. I feed her 2 to 3 times a day.
>
> According to Dr Tom Lonsdale's article, it's 2-3% of the body
weight. She weighs about 14 kg now.
>
> Would appreciate some advise.
>

Hi Carol,

The 2-3% is of expected ADULT weight - pups need this amount too,
just split over several meals. It does sound as if you are feeding
too much bone and too small pieces - try chicken quarters with the
wing or drumstick attached rather than just wings and necks. Are you
feeding any offal? This is a vital part of a raw eating plan - the
general recommended ratio is about 80:10:10 of meat:edible
bone:offal. This is over a week or two not every day.

Good luck and welcome to the raw side.

Messages in this topic (46)
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10.1. Re: New to Raw
Posted by: "johkemp" johkemp@yahoo.com.au johkemp
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 4:48 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Barbara G. Freeman-Rattie"
<RkyMtnHrse@...> wrote:
>

>
> 1. What does RMB's stand for?
Raw Meaty Bones
> 2. Where do you purchase these pre-packaged meats?
Do you mean pre-made patties? Then the answer is 'I don't'. I buy
at the supermarket, butcher, food markets and ethnic stores.
> 3. Many whom have posted have a large amount of dogs - I can't
imagine being able to afford buying raw meats at the grocery store;
do you recommend butchers?
Buy in bulk or on sale - the marked down meat with a day or two
fridge life is fine - It usually goes into the freezer anyway.
> 4. I have 3 Toy Fox Terriers and 2 Red Heelers (cattle dogs)
and caring for 2 adult Rot's for my brother; I have no concerns the
big guys can handle chicken halves and the like but the little guys,
should I give them drumsticks and thighs or just wings and cut up
whole chickens?
Once they get used to it they will be crunching through those bones.
> 5. Have never seen hearts for sale in a market; and not priced
beef tongue - do any of you purchase at a slaughter house?
Try the deli section or an ethnic market - great source of those out
of the ordinary foods.
> 6. Does anyone feed a combination of raw and commercial dog
food?
Only for one very stubborn cat - the other 2 and the dog eat raw
> 7. Finally, what vaccinations can be illuminated if dogs are
on a 100% raw diet? I would think Heartworm med's and rabies shots
would still be necessary, no?
This is a very topical subject - some people don't vaccinate at all,
some do the full spectrum - only you can decide this one.
>
>
I hope this helps,

Messages in this topic (59)
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11a. Re: Having a Sheep Processed
Posted by: "johkemp" johkemp@yahoo.com.au johkemp
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 4:48 pm ((PST))

Mutton and hogget is great for curries too!!

I would have thought that shanks would be too hard for most dogs. What
do others think?

Messages in this topic (3)
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12. afraid to feed turkey necks
Posted by: "outcats4@aol.com" outcats4@aol.com barb5ducks
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 4:48 pm ((PST))

Hi, I did a search on the list about turkey necks, but couldnt find much
about not giving them. Im concerned about feeding them to my dog. Are they
safe ? He isnt a gulper, but there just seems to be so many bones in them. Has
anyone had any problems with turkey necks?
Thanks for your help,
Barb

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Messages in this topic (1)
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13. Wild Rabbit Organ
Posted by: "Susanne MacLeod" suzmacleod@rogers.com skull25ca
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 5:00 pm ((PST))

Evening everyone! I had a quick question...I am flying home to visit
my folks, and my Dad ordered 6 wild rabbit from the guy down the
street. He skins them and guts them....I was thinking about asking him
to save some of the organs for me...is there anything I should stay
away from? These are wild snow rabbits.
Suz Kate and Joey

Messages in this topic (1)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12346

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. How long have you been feeding raw to the same dog?
From: Gayle
1b. Re: How long have you been feeding raw to the same dog?
From: Chia
1c. How long have you been feeding raw to the same dog?
From: carnesbill
1d. How long have you been feeding raw to the same dog?
From: costrowski75
1e. Re: How long have you been feeding raw to the same dog?
From: Casey Post
1f. How long have you been feeding raw to the same dog?
From: carnesbill

2a. Best For Weight Gain
From: hburton878
2b. Re: Best For Weight Gain
From: Andrea
2c. Re: Best For Weight Gain
From: steph.sorensen

3a. Re: How to stop him from traveling around the house with food
From: jaygaughan

4a. Re: Feeding venison
From: Kim Clark
4b. Re: Feeding venison
From: Jen S

5a. A little leery on starting
From: Kim Clark
5b. Re: A little leery on starting
From: Andrea
5c. Re: A little leery on starting
From: mmc2315

6a. Re: Parasites?
From: costrowski75

7. Fish and Game
From: gbongi1

8a. Chicken skin question
From: jaygaughan
8b. Re: Chicken skin question
From: Andrea

9a. Re: Salmon oil versus capsules
From: Sai Simonson

10.1. Re: Salmon oil
From: Sai Simonson

11a. Re: Which of these has more good stuff for kittens..gizzards(bird st
From: swilken61

12a. marrow bones
From: tiffany.contempopainting

13a. Puzzled by duration of loose stools
From: mozookpr
13b. Re: Puzzled by duration of loose stools
From: Andrea

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. How long have you been feeding raw to the same dog?
Posted by: "Gayle" gayle@gayleturner.net gayle28607
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 7:02 am ((PST))

> How long have you been feeding raw to the same dog?
> Posted by: "Suzanne J" suzjoxx@... suzjoxx
> Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:55 am (PST)
>
> Just wondering what the long-term (positive) effects of raw feeding
> are. I started my dogs at ages 7 and 5 years. I'm wondering if anyone
> has an older dog they've been feeding since it was a pup, and what your
> experience is, versus a dog that was fed kibble for several years
> first. Are the always-raw fed dogs way more healthy?
>
> Suzanne
>

Has anyone considered developing a database for this list that addresses this issue? I
realize it could get complicated because ideally there would have to be criteria established
that went beyond "my dog was fed raw and died at x age with x health issues over the
years." The data could, unfortunately, be subject to manipulation if it was only based on
owner reports.

There is such a wealth of anecdotal evidence here, and I, for one, am very grateful for that.
But it does make me hope for some long term data collection from this group.

Maybe that has come up before. I haven't checked the archives on that. What do others
think?

Gayle and Chakotay

Messages in this topic (12)
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1b. Re: How long have you been feeding raw to the same dog?
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 7:11 am ((PST))

> Just wondering what the long-term (positive) effects of raw feeding
> are. I started my dogs at ages 7 and 5 years. I'm wondering if anyone
> has an older dog they've been feeding since it was a pup, and what your
> experience is, versus a dog that was fed kibble for several years
> first. Are the always-raw fed dogs way more healthy?

#### I switched my dog to a species appropriate diet at age 6 months and
he is now 6. He is a vibrant, robust, gorgeous animal whom looks more like
an adolescent dog due to his muscular, lean build.

He has never had a bath, never had his teeth cleaned and requires NO vet
visits.

There is NO way I could EVER feed him commercial food, EVER! He deserves
the best and in seeing the other dogs out there, in comparison to him, it is
truly tragic what they must endure,

Chia & Ricco

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Messages in this topic (12)
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1c. How long have you been feeding raw to the same dog?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 7:48 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Gayle" <gayle@...> wrote:
>
> Maybe that has come up before. I haven't checked the archives
> on that. What do others think?

Hey Gayle,
There was a 5 year study done in Belgium that was begun in 1998 and
covered 522 dogs. The study showed that dogs fed a "home made" diet
(this could be cooked, leftovers, BARF type, or prey model or any
combination) lived an average of 32 months longer than dogs fed
commercial diets. You can read about it at

http://www.ukrmb.co.uk/images/LippertSapySummary.pdf

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________

1d. How long have you been feeding raw to the same dog?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 8:23 am ((PST))

"Gayle" <gayle@...> wrote:
> Has anyone considered developing a database for this list that
addresses this issue? I
> realize it could get complicated because ideally there would have to
be criteria established
> that went beyond "my dog was fed raw and died at x age with x health
issues over the
> years." The data could, unfortunately, be subject to manipulation if
it was only based on
> owner reports.
*****
I think you should do it! Find a need and fill it, right?
You want that bread baked, I think you should bake it. The Little Red
Hen was right.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________

1e. Re: How long have you been feeding raw to the same dog?
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 9:29 am ((PST))

>
> Has anyone considered developing a database for this list that addresses
> this issue? I
> realize it could get complicated because ideally there would have to be
> criteria established
> that went beyond "my dog was fed raw and died at x age with x health
> issues over the
> years." The data could, unfortunately, be subject to manipulation if it
> was only based on
> owner reports.

Gayle,

Good thought, but there are other factors to life span besides diet
(unfortunately). Genetics, vaccines, environment, etc. all play a role.
Also unfortunate is that too many of us switched to raw because of some kind
of health issue to begin with. I envy those more clever than I who "thought
it just made sense" when first exposed to the idea!

Casey

Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________

1f. How long have you been feeding raw to the same dog?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 11:35 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>
> I think you should do it! Find a need and fill it, right?
> You want that bread baked, I think you should bake it.

Hehe, I used to have a boss like that. I quickly learned not to
suggest anything. :) :) :)

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (12)
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________________________________________________________________________

2a. Best For Weight Gain
Posted by: "hburton878" hburton878@yahoo.com hburton878
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 7:28 am ((PST))

I am new to the group but have been reading the very informative posts
for awhile. I have recently started my 1 yr old Anatolian Shepherd,
Kyzer, on his exclusively raw food diet. Before this he had horrible
allergies and hives. He rarely ate his kibble and was quite skinny for
such a tall dog. He is only about 140lbs and is ment to be much
heavier. Now that he is on raw food, it is like he cant get enough and
is much happier now! His allergies and hives have also gone away and
he looks beautiful. I would like to help him put on more weight and
fill out. Is there one or two protein sources better for healthy
weight gain? Any advice would be very much appreciated.

Heather

Messages in this topic (3)
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2b. Re: Best For Weight Gain
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 7:49 am ((PST))

I wouldn't worry too much about fattening him up, many underweight dogs
get up to a proper weight just by switching to a raw diet. It takes a
little time, but you don't want to add weight too quickly. Red meat
like beef and pork would be good for him, but make sure you add the new
proteins slowly. At a proper weight you should be able to see or feel
his last two ribs. If you don't notice him gaining any weight after
the first few weeks I'd increase the amount of food a little.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "hburton878" <hburton878@...> wrote:

> I would like to help him put on more weight and
> fill out. Is there one or two protein sources better for healthy
> weight gain?

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

2c. Re: Best For Weight Gain
Posted by: "steph.sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 8:05 am ((PST))

I would just try fattier meats, like beef brisket and pork
shoulders. Those things provide good meat content, but also give him
some good fat too. I would feed more of that than chicken or turkey
for a little while - at least until he is close to his ideal weight.
Then I'd throw more chicken, venison, turkey and any other leaner
meats to him along with more beef and pork. Try to keep a good
variety, and just make sure he is still getting the 80-10-10 ratio of
meat-bone-organs, and you should be good to go!
>
> -Steph and the girls
>
> hburton878 <hburton878@yahoo.com> wrote:

>I would like to help him put on more weight and
> fill out. Is there one or two protein sources better for healthy
> weight gain? Any advice would be very much appreciated.
>
> Heather

Messages in this topic (3)
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3a. Re: How to stop him from traveling around the house with food
Posted by: "jaygaughan" jaygaughan@yahoo.com jaygaughan
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 7:52 am ((PST))

I decide to stay near him while he was eating yesterday afternoon
and immediately correct him if he tried to leave. It only took a
couple of times and he gets it now. For his third meal I didn't have
to correct him at all. He stayed right at his bowl and ate it all up.
The food never hit the ground. He learns very fast for a young pup.

I won't be feeding him in the crate when he's grown. I only do this
to get him familiar with the crate. He, like everyone else in my
family eats in the kitchen or dining room. If I let him eat in the
crate my kids will want to eat in their rooms also. LOL

He's 10 weeks old today. In the last 2 weeks he's learned so much. NO
of course was his first lesson. House broken already. He will go sit
in front of the door when he has to go. I'll be adding a bell to the
door as I did with my other Danes so he can ring it when he wants
out. Up and down stairs. Comes when called. Already has fetch down.
Just need to teach him to release when prompted. Walks with or
without a lead right next to me wherever I take him. And I take him
everywhere. Today he'll be going to basketball practice, to the pool
for swim practice, and to dance class. I have 3 VERY busy children. I
live in a small town so Luthor comes in every building with me.
Socializing him to the max. Tonight he'll be learning to sit.

As for eating at an elevated feeding stand. He, just like my other
Danes will.
This is just like having my children stay in the kitchen and eat,
it's not an option.
With praise and or immediate correction my dogs listen very well and
obey all commands. They live to please us. You just need to give them
the tools to do so.

Thanks again for all your thoughts on this.

Take a look at this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pphoNerNRU4

Jay

Messages in this topic (10)
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________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: Feeding venison
Posted by: "Kim Clark" kimmieclark@netzero.com howdryiam50
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 8:05 am ((PST))

> Is your dog new to raw feeding? Have your dog eaten deer organ
before?

No I have not started yet, I am just getting all the do's and don'ts
down.

> Did your husband removed organ right away andseparate it from
animal?

I really don't know why my husband removes the organs in the field
(field dressed) but I will find out. I am not sure I can stomach
gathering those up or even having him bring them to me. We butcher the
deer ourselves, so maybe I could. He hunts right in our back yard so to
speak.

Kimmie

Messages in this topic (4)
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4b. Re: Feeding venison
Posted by: "Jen S" zordan@optonline.net sigp2301
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 8:16 am ((PST))

Organs don't keep well in a warm/cooling carcass. A hunter will field
dress game because gasses build up in the organs and will contaminate
the meat pretty quickly. Most hunters will leave the offal in the
woods for scavengers.

If you are lucky enough to find a hunter that will haul the organs out
of the woods for you, then just check with your state's Department of
Environmental Protection (or equivalent) to make sure the organs of
wild game aren't considered contaminated.

The CT DEP advises against consuming venison liver because of a toxic
build up of heavy metals. The liver is the body's filter, and it
traps toxins. Those that can't be eliminated are stored. A quick
phone call or visit to your state's hunting regulations website should
answer your question.

JenZ

Messages in this topic (4)
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5a. A little leery on starting
Posted by: "Kim Clark" kimmieclark@netzero.com howdryiam50
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 8:15 am ((PST))

For some reason I am a little leery on starting Rustee on the raw food.
I know he will love it as I give him pieces or meat when I cut it up to
cook and or when we butcher deer. He seems to be a easy vomiter, the
most of any dog I have ever had. He has lots of bile, sometimes foamy.
Another thing I noticed is he loves to eat grass, I heard it's wives
tell that they only do this when they have a stomach ache. I would say
that he barfs at least twice a week or more, sometimes right after he
eats. He is fed kibble.

So the question is should he be able to tolerate the raw meat better? I
have given him marrow bones but I know to let him outside because he
seems to barf them up to, to much fat maybe? I heard since, not to give
them to him due to they are to fatty and to hard not good for the teeth.

Kimmie

Messages in this topic (3)
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5b. Re: A little leery on starting
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 8:25 am ((PST))

Of course start right away! It's hard to tell at this point what is
making him vomit, but feeding a raw diet will help eliminate some of
the possibilities. Make sure you feed him things that he has to work
at to eat. Eating too quickly can cause a dog to vomit up their
food, but they will usually re-eat it if given the chance. Also make
sure you feed room temp food, as cold food can also get returned to
sender.

Do you have a specified feeding schedule? Expecting food at a
certain time can also invite bile vomit. Start with just one protein
source for a couple of weeks before you start adding in other
proteins or organs.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Kim Clark" <kimmieclark@...>
wrote:

> So the question is should he be able to tolerate the raw meat
> better? I have given him marrow bones but I know to let him outside
> because he seems to barf them up to, to much fat maybe? I heard
> since, not to give them to him due to they are to fatty and to hard
> not good for the teeth.

Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________

5c. Re: A little leery on starting
Posted by: "mmc2315" m.chelap@sbcglobal.net mmc2315
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 10:22 am ((PST))

Hi Andrea,

Our 10# terrier mix has been on raw since the beginning of November. He has thrown up a
few times, no doubt. Once, he threw up his entire chicken dinner shortly after eating, but
seemed well otherwises.

We've noticed he throws up more often if he has been chewing on sticks or wood chips in the
yard. That will almost certainly come up. :P

I vote start as soon as you're ready and take. it. slow. We stayed on chicken for 3 ? weeks
(chicken quarters, chicken breast with and without bone), then tried pork, then tried rabbit.
We haven't introduced organs yet.

Our dog seems so healthy, his coat looks better, and he is soooo happy at mealtime.

Michelle

Messages in this topic (3)
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________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: Parasites?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 8:16 am ((PST))

"sltahoek9s" <crazy4k9@...> wrote:
but the last week or
> more, my GSD has been really licking at his anus. When I notice him,
it seems to be a bit red
> and irritated from his licking. Could this be from parasites?
*****
Maybe but I doubt it.

It could be his anal glands.

But since licking also addresses pain irritation as well as itch
irritation, you might want to think back on his stools (yeah, I know,
but how else are you going to eliminate the potential problem of, um,
elimination?); did he have a bout of loose stools? Did he have a bout
of constipation? Either extreme can irriate the rectum. Even one bone
that gee'd when it shoulda haw'd could have irritated the area.

I'd wash the area and apply aloe vera, I would. And of course stay
tuned for further developments.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (8)
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7. Fish and Game
Posted by: "gbongi1" gbongi1@comcast.net gbongi1
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 10:20 am ((PST))

Hello,
I go fishing and hunting.
I understand Squirrel, Rabbit, and Deer are great food items for my
little guy.
Are ther any game that on ewould not feed their dog??
Also about fish.
I catch White and yellow perch, tog, blues, and striper. Can I feed my
dog these items whole?

thanks
~g~

Messages in this topic (1)
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8a. Chicken skin question
Posted by: "jaygaughan" jaygaughan@yahoo.com jaygaughan
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 10:21 am ((PST))

I am feeding my 10 week old Dane chicken backs and he's loving them.

My question is should I leave the extra skin on them or trim it off?
When they cut the breast meat off they leave the flap of skin on each
side that covered the breast. So far I've been cutting most off. I
think it is out of habit since I do this when I cook chicken for my
family.

I just read that chicken skin is considered part of the raw meat
portion of a raw diet.

What are your thoughts on chicken skin?

Thank you

Jay

Messages in this topic (2)
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8b. Re: Chicken skin question
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 11:02 am ((PST))

I see no reason to remove skin unless it is causing digestive upset.
I'd be afraid to remove extra skin from back only meals since you might
end up with crumbly dry poos. Personally I would be adding more meat
to the back meals as well. Skin isn't bad for dogs so leave it unless
your dog's stools tell you to do so.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jaygaughan" <jaygaughan@...> wrote:
>
> I am feeding my 10 week old Dane chicken backs and he's loving them.
>
> My question is should I leave the extra skin on them or trim it off?
> When they cut the breast meat off they leave the flap of skin on each
> side that covered the breast. So far I've been cutting most off.

Messages in this topic (2)
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________________________________________________________________________

9a. Re: Salmon oil versus capsules
Posted by: "Sai Simonson" saiczarina@comcast.net keikokat
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 10:21 am ((PST))

Yassy,

I looked at tripe and I do not think I can work with it. Big yucky
hunk. There were some cute cubes but they had been scalded .....that
would mean cooked?

I do like your ideas with the capsules. I am off to try the Grizzly
Salmon oil, found it about a mile from the house. Love this area,
Milwaukie, Oregon.
Sai

=====================================================

Or,just mix the Egg with tripe ;more smelly thing but dog likes it and
omit the cheese,and then, you can just pop the fish oil capsule to your
dog and no snipping.Most dog likes Tripe and fish oil so,it maybe go
good for yourdog.

My dog drool and keep licking the mouth when I feed tripe.For me,it is
smelly thing and not appetising but for her,it looks like very tasty thing.

Like mine,on very first day,you may need to show your dog what the
capsule tastes like and you may need to snip it off like I did but,I am
sure your dog would figure out it is other tasty thing.
yassy
--
*~~ SaiCzarina*

Messages in this topic (4)
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________________________________________________________________________

10.1. Re: Salmon oil
Posted by: "Sai Simonson" saiczarina@comcast.net keikokat
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 10:21 am ((PST))

Another great idea, Mallory
Thanks,
Sai

use salmon oil in a pump bottle from www.leerburg.com
mine won't take capsules, so just give them a squirt. mine will acually
open up for a squirt in the mouth, or lick it off a spoon. they love it.
mallory

--
*~~ SaiCzarina*

Messages in this topic (43)
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11a. Re: Which of these has more good stuff for kittens..gizzards(bird st
Posted by: "swilken61" powrfemme@aol.com swilken61
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 10:33 am ((PST))

I've read that gizzards have a lot of methionine (sp?), which helps
prevent urinary tract infections, so I try to give some to both my cats
and my dog, who is prone to them. By default, the other dog gets them
too.

Stephany

Messages in this topic (4)
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12a. marrow bones
Posted by: "tiffany.contempopainting" tiffcurran@gmail.com tiffany.contempopainting
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 11:34 am ((PST))

Hi everyone. We have gotten some great advise here and the dogs are doing great now with their raw diet. We are still in the beginning stages though. I try to balance out their food over time. I was wondering if marrow bones are ok to give them to chew on. They don't have any meat so it wouldn't be a meal. They used to love rawhide until I found out how bad they are and took them. Just wondering if I could substitute them for the marrow bones or if it would cause an upset stomach. Thanks for all the advice.
Tiffany

Messages in this topic (8)
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13a. Puzzled by duration of loose stools
Posted by: "mozookpr" mozookpr@yahoo.com mozookpr
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 11:35 am ((PST))

Hello, all.

I have read and read about this issue, and it seems that the more I
read, the less clear I am about how to proceed.

I started raw feeding my two dogs last Monday. My Pomeranian, Foxy,
5, is doing well, although not eating as much as I would like
(looking back, though, he was never a big eater on doom nuggets,
either, it would take months to finish off 5-lb. bag.) No loose
stools, not even close. He is already getting pork and beef along
with his chicken, and last night he ate a sardine while I was feeding
the cats, and loved it.

My concern at this point is Sophie. She is a Sheltie, coming up on 5
months old. She eats her meals with great gusto, two a day, and the
amount of intake is right on target for her estimated adult weight.
She is still getting chicken only, although she did mooch a sardine
last night. Her stools are still very loose, some are nothing but
sort of a mucousy liquid, and sometimes they are pretty frequent.
She has not vomited, and does not seem to be ill. All vacs are
current (although I am learning that many of the recommended shots
may not be needed, hooray!) She often had soft stools on kibble,
too -- Wellness fish and sweet potato, although it was suggested that
I feed her Purina One, yuck. A fecal came back positive for worms
(round and I forget what other kind.) She has been treated for that,
so should be parasite-free.

The odd thing is, the loose stools do not seem to be changed by
feeding more or less bone (chicken breast quarter, as opposed to leg,
which seems bonier to me.) I have found tiny bone fragments in the
stools, and even the runniest ones are, as promised, getting flaky
and rapidly disintigrating.

I am not so much afraid for her health at this point as I am for my
sanity. Some nights she is fine, others she wakes me every couple of
hours to go out. Housebreaking this girl has not been a picnic by
any means, and this is NOT helping. It seems that she will go and go
and pass mostly mucous, then one more substantial, yet still runny,
stool, and then be okay for a while. If she showed any signs of
discomfort, I would suspect she was struggling to pass bone, but she
doesn't.

Is this a normal period of adjustment that will correct itself? If
so, how long, at worst, can it be expected to last? Also, would
Slippery Elm help? I have some, but it is in capsule form, not the
whole herb, which was sold out. If so, how do I use it? Should I
increase bone? Increase meat? Or should I try smaller, more
frequent meals? She is currently getting about one chicken quarter a
day, divided into two meals. The few days, she would eat a quarter
all at once, and then more for the smaller second meal, but has
slowed down a bit since then. (Maybe she knows real food isn't just
a one-time thing, now...) Could it be that she is the odd dog that
just can't tolerate chicken?

I have studied so much about this way of feeding, and feel strongly
that it is the right thing to do. I have learned a lot about raw
feeding by reading this list and the wonderful links suggested here,
but I feel like an idiot right now, for being stymied by such a basic
question... It just seems like there are so many variables to
consider, whilst I tear out my hair trying to FIX this.

Maybe this is some sort of cosmic lesson to me about the difference
between theoretical knowledge and experience. Bleah.

Any help would be appreciated.

Wendy (frustrated, but not panicked, and definitely breathing
regularly ;) )

Messages in this topic (2)
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13b. Re: Puzzled by duration of loose stools
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 11:46 am ((PST))

Ok, my first plan of attack would be to break the same amount of food
to three meals a day. Second would be to try taking the skin off the
chicken and see if that helps (since you already tried feeding more
bone with no luck). I'd also take a stool sample into the vet for
another check. When I adopted Geiger the vet said he had some kind
of worm or another and gave him medicine for it. After he had taken
all the medicine he still had pretty liquid stools and a second stool
check revealed that he had coccidia. After being treated for that
one his stools firmed right up.

When my newest pup found us he tested positive for worms as well.
Instead of using the vet's worming medicine I gave him food grade
diatomaceous earth in his food for about a month. His symptoms went
away in about a week and never returned.

If those don't work I'd switch to a different protein. Hope that
helps a little. Let us know how things go.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mozookpr" <mozookpr@...> wrote:

> My concern at this point is Sophie. She is a Sheltie, coming up on
> 5 months old. She eats her meals with great gusto, two a day, and
> the amount of intake is right on target for her estimated adult
> weight. She is still getting chicken only, although she did mooch
> a sardine last night. Her stools are still very loose, some are
> nothing but sort of a mucousy liquid, and sometimes they are pretty
> frequent.

Messages in this topic (2)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12345

There are 22 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: How to stop him from traveling around the house with food
From: T Smith
1b. Re: How to stop him from traveling around the house with food
From: Andrea
1c. Re: How to stop him from traveling around the house with food
From: Yasuko herron

2.1. Re: New to Raw
From: SLib700@aol.com
2.2. Re: New to Raw
From: Andrea
2.3. Re: New to Raw
From: Casey Post
2.4. Re: New to Raw
From: Yasuko herron
2.5. Re: New to Raw
From: Yasuko herron
2.6. Re: New to Raw
From: carnesbill

3a. Re: Mucosy & Bloody Stools
From: dmckenna43
3b. Re: Mucosy & Bloody Stools
From: Chia
3c. Re: Mucosy & Bloody Stools
From: dmckenna43
3d. Re: Mucosy & Bloody Stools
From: Chia

4a. Re: Anal Glands
From: Mary Tinder

5. Amos and I - we're new here!
From: Heather

6a. Re: Salmon oil versus capsules
From: Yasuko herron
6b. Re: Salmon oil versus capsules
From: Mallory Kwiatkowski

7a. Re: am I feeding enough?
From: Yasuko herron

8a. Re: Feeding venison
From: Yasuko herron

9a. Re: Feeding organs;do we need to washthem before feeding???
From: Yasuko herron

10a. Parasites?
From: sltahoek9s
10b. Re: Parasites?
From: carnesbill

Messages
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1a. Re: How to stop him from traveling around the house with food
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 1:40 pm ((PST))

EDITED BY MODERATOR. TRIM YOUR MESSAGES!

Hi Jay.
I feed my Danes in their crates & one used to eat out of the crate & sneak
over to the leather couch!
It only took a few times to put his meat back on a towel & now he'll eat on
that.
We finally did get the 45" tall crate so he can have his own to eat in.
Either way, it worked for us.
My middle Dane pup (7 months old) swallows his food before I can get the
bowl to the floor!!! The oldest (9 months) likes to "chew...
savor....enjoy" his meal! That's why his crate was a must because he needs
alot more time to eat. The 6 month old is in between them both for her
eating habits! The 9 month old snubbed his nose to some wonderful country
shoulder pork the other day! Blew my mind but the beef heart is yummy for
him!
Trina
Chip (deaf Dalmatian)
Casper (deaf Great Dane)
Whisper (deaf Great Dane)
Louie (hearing Great Dane)
Joey (deaf & blind Lhasa Apso)
Amy (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Cassandra (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Mr Paris (Lhasa Apso)
Chloe (deaf & blind Spaniel mix)
VISIT ALL OUR KIDS AT: http://s48.photobucket.com/albums/f232/coldbeach/

Messages in this topic (9)
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1b. Re: How to stop him from traveling around the house with food
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 2:41 pm ((PST))

I started feeding both of my pups in a crate and it worked really well
for them. Transitioning them to eat on a mat was really easy. I just
started putting a towel at the bottom of the crate and they eventually
saw it as their food towel. Now they will eat on the towel wherever I
put it and they stay put.

As he gets bigger he'll probably be eating bigger food, so I don't
think an elevated feeding station will be feasible, my boys like to lay
down and eat.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jaygaughan" <jaygaughan@...> wrote:

> I'll feed him in the crate until he gets a little bigger. He'll
> then be eating on an elevated feeding station.

Messages in this topic (9)
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1c. Re: How to stop him from traveling around the house with food
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 7:34 pm ((PST))

>As he gets bigger he'll probably be eating bigger food, so I don't think an elevated feeding station will be feasible, my boys like to lay down and eat.

I agree to Andrea. I feed in kitchen andI use vynyle shower curtain(water-proof) and about 6foot x6foot and my corgi eats on it.I use bowl for rawEgg or liver but otherstuff,I place it on curtain directly and she sometimes eats standing up,sometimes sit on butt and eat lazy way or sometimes, tackling the work-out needed meal from onedirection or from the other and using space fully and sometimes,she lay on curtain and eat with super-man style posture which isso funny when you look at it.

I section off kitchen andliving room with puppy pen panels she used to use by starighten up,and it avoid her running with chicken feet to other room etc.

Since eating space is big,we rarely need to tell her to back to eating area but, for just in case,I am using panels to avoid her reacting door bell and come investigate door area with chicken feet,lol.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (9)
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2.1. Re: New to Raw
Posted by: "SLib700@aol.com" SLib700@aol.com annettedeutsch
Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 1:40 pm ((PST))

Hi Jeni! You said that just chicken leg quarters by themselves are too
bony,does that go for drumsticks as well? How about thighs or else giving some
boneless chicken meat along with the drumstick to my new to feeding raw 26 lb.
dachshund? Thanks! Annette.

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Messages in this topic (58)
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2.2. Re: New to Raw
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 2:36 pm ((PST))

How much are you feeding her per day? Does she eat her chicken
quarters slowly or is it chomp chomp gone? If the 96lbs looks good
on her she should be getting about 2lbs of food per day. You might
look into changing brands of chicken or checking to see if the
chicken is enhanced with some kind of broth solution. If the chicken
is minimally processed and she's eating around 2lbs a day you can try
taking the skin off of the chicken to see if that helps her at all.
Let us know how it goes.

Don't worry about adding new proteins until you get the stool under
control, then just go slowly.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "dijac9999" <jacobs_diane@...>
wrote:

> However, she is still not having any hard/firm poo. We started raw
> on November 4th. She gets fed twice a day. I did try about week
> three giving her mackerel for dinner as a new protein to see if
> that helped. Didn't work; it was still very soft to the point of
> almost runny.

Messages in this topic (58)
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2.3. Re: New to Raw
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 5:04 pm ((PST))

> I stared out with Chicken leg quarters.

Question 1 - are those leg quarters enhanced with a sodium solution at all?

Question 2 - is it possible you're overfeeding her?

Either one will cause loose stools in some dogs.

Casey

Messages in this topic (58)
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2.4. Re: New to Raw
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 7:35 pm ((PST))

>chicken leg quarters are too boney.

hmm.. I do not think as bony as chicken wing is. Maybe compare to chicken breast with rib bones ,Leg quarter has more bone % in it but as long as one doesn't feed it for long period of times,I think it is ok meal.

And when you get a whole chicken 2meal out of the whatever the number of cut you make has leg portions anyways.

My dog has no prob eating Leg quarters 2 meals out of whatever number I cut the whole bird.and she started rawfeeding with Leg quarter 2-3 meals in first week..

yassy

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Messages in this topic (58)
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2.5. Re: New to Raw
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 7:35 pm ((PST))

>she should be getting about 2lbs of food per day.

I think I have a good idea. I thnk that Cornish hen is baby chicken,right?? and whole bird weigh about 2lb I remember,so,the dog can eat half in the morning and other half in evening if the dog cannot eat 2lb in one sitting and end up loose poo(If you give smaller amount per sitting,poo prob could solve),or if 2lb in one sitting is no prob for dog,then,one can give whole Cornish hen in onesitting daily.

Name is different but it is I believe same protin source??the chicken? right?

yassy

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Messages in this topic (58)
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2.6. Re: New to Raw
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 7:55 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "dijac9999" <jacobs_diane@...>
wrote:
>
> I stared out with Chicken leg quarters.

How many quarters are you feeding each meal?

> I was going to introduce a new
> protein at about 2 weeks when her diarrhea changed to the
> nice smaller poo.

Don't add any new proteins until she has nice smaller FIRMER poo.

> From what I've read up on, start new proteins slowly.

Exactly ... after everything is under control.

> My
> thoughts were to do chicken in the morning and every other
> night after
> the introduction period the same new protein, then one week
> all chicken and start again.

That plan is as good as any WHEN the time gets here. It's not here
yet.

> However, she is still not having any hard/firm poo. We
> started raw on November 4th. She gets fed twice a day.

Again, how many quarters per meal?

There are a few things that commonly cause loose stools.
1. Meals that are too large. In your case, more than one quarter
per meal.
2. Too much fat. You might want to remove skin and excess fat for
a few weeks to give the dog a chance to adjust.
4. Organs too soon in the diet. I don't think this affects you at
all.
5. Not enough bone in the diet. If you are feeding one quarter per
meal, no skin, no organs and still have the problem, feed two
chicken backs for the morning meal and a quarter for the evening
meal until the problem clears up. This will add more bone to the
diet. Bone is a constipator. Thats what you need at this point. I
feed my dogs 2 backs every day and they have never had a soft stool
in 5 years. Not one ever.

> I did try about week three
> giving her mackerel for dinner as a new protein to see if that
> helped. Didn't work;

And it won't work next time. Don't do that again until he has had
firm stools for a couple of weeks at least. Longer would be better.

> I'm concerned about trying any more proteins.

Be concerned about that right now. Once he has firmed up for a week
or so, slowly introduce them and I don't think you will have a
problem.

> I'm also concerned that
> maybe I should ask the vet for some kind of test to make sure
> she is
> okay, but I do not know what test to ask for.

Don't ask for anytyhing. There is no test needed at this time. He
will just try to put your dog on Science Diet I/D. That is not the
answer to your problem.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (58)
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3a. Re: Mucosy & Bloody Stools
Posted by: "dmckenna43" dawn@explorenewquay.com dmckenna43
Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 1:41 pm ((PST))

Thanks for your advice which we very much appreciate. Can you suggest
a bland food to feed them?
Regards
Dawn & Gerry

Messages in this topic (6)
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3b. Re: Mucosy & Bloody Stools
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 2:05 pm ((PST))

Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: Mucosy & Bloody Stools

Thanks for your advice which we very much appreciate. Can you suggest
a bland food to feed them?

#### perhaps some boneless chicken breasts for the day, then resume half
and quarter chickens tomorrow. I realize your dogs are not a large breed so
you would probably wish for them to feast on their HUGE chicken parts for a
short while, remove, then re-offer at the next feeding.

Chia & Ricco

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Messages in this topic (6)
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3c. Re: Mucosy & Bloody Stools
Posted by: "dmckenna43" dawn@explorenewquay.com dmckenna43
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 3:38 am ((PST))

Many thanks for your help. We will follow your advice and post a
message to let you know what happens.
Thanks
Dawn & Gerry

Messages in this topic (6)
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3d. Re: Mucosy & Bloody Stools
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 5:39 am ((PST))

Many thanks for your help. We will follow your advice and post a
message to let you know what happens.

### sounds good! Everything will be fine if you just advance forward
slowly.

Chia & Ricco

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Messages in this topic (6)
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4a. Re: Anal Glands
Posted by: "Mary Tinder" mtinder@tinderco.com mmmaryt
Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 3:27 pm ((PST))

Dan, I have the poster child for anal gland improvement from this
diet! Definitely trimmed our once a month or more scoots and presses
down to none!
Mary T

Messages in this topic (11)
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5. Amos and I - we're new here!
Posted by: "Heather" newbeginnings06@gmail.com malignstar
Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 7:34 pm ((PST))

But not to raw feeding! I found Amos, my 3 (estimated) 3 year old
beagle over a year and a half ago, shivering in the cold rain. After
having him on kibble and discovering he had very bad itching and
breakouts I began to research treatment- first medical, then I
delved deeper into food allergies as a suspect. Thankfully I didn't
know about all the grain free kibbles or I may've never done raw. I
talked with a vet on the east coast and had alot of people help me
on a forum I frequent that also have their dogs on raw. I finally
pinpointed the culrpit as corn and wheat (now he's developed a rice
allergy) and started him on raw. We've never looked back since. The
tartar that covered 3/4 of his teeth is almost all gone (just thin
threads around the gumline) and he looks amazing.. as I'm sure you
all see with your own dogs. The only time he's ever at the vet is
when he eats stuff he's not supposed to (like a pound and a half of
EVO cat food to which he developed a severe hot spot from the
concentrated protein). It struck me funny because at the vet he
says "Wow Amos is REALLY sensitive to everthing (nylon, kibble,
grains, etc) and it made me realize that I don't notice it because
all of his food sensitivities are controlled perectly by his diet.
I'm looking forward to learning even more from everyone here! I
can't wait to get reading!

Heather

Messages in this topic (1)
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6a. Re: Salmon oil versus capsules
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 8:45 pm ((PST))

>Tending toward the liquid as it is tedious to break open capsules or stuff them down throats.

Hi,Sai.Most dogs loooves Fish oil cap. My dog has no prob swallow it.

when I first introduced it to my dog,she was not sure what it is although it smelled good for her and she tried chewing as if eating itty-bitty rib,holding the tiny capsule and try to rip it or punctured with front teeth,very cute!

I then, watching her minutes but not going anywhere so,I snipped it off andsheate liquid and gel andall.

second day,she realised that she swallowing is much easier way so,she swallowed it andsince then,she does no more mouse eating cheese sort of thing anymore.

If Egg is your problem for dog to get to eat,then,why no just snip off the capsule and dump the gels into raw Egg? It is not so tedious work. And that way,you can get cheese out from Egg.

Or,just mix the Egg with tripe ;more smelly thing but dog likes it and omit the cheese,and then, you can just pop the fish oil capsule to your dog and no snipping.Most dog likes Tripe and fish oil so,it maybe go good for yourdog.

My dog drool and keep licking the mouth when I feed tripe.For me,it is smelly thing and not appetising but for her,it looks like very tasty thing.

Like mine,on very first day,you may need to show your dog what the capsule tastes like and you may need to snip it off like I did but,I am sure your dog would figure out it is other tasty thing.
yassy

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6b. Re: Salmon oil versus capsules
Posted by: "Mallory Kwiatkowski" m_k_jesusfreak3@yahoo.com m_k_jesusfreak3
Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 9:05 pm ((PST))

i use salmon oil in a pump bottle from www.leerburg.com
mine won't take capsules, so just give them a squirt. mine will acually open up for a squirt in the mouth, or lick it off a spoon. they love it.
mallory

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7a. Re: am I feeding enough?
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 3:37 am ((PST))

>They are not puppies. My Pomeranian is 3, (11lbs) my miniature dauschund iis 2 (16lbs!) and my Yorkie (teacup) is 2 1/2. (5 lbs) I am afraid my yorkie and dauschund are not ideal weight.

Really?? I looked it up at AKC site since i do not know what is average lb for dachshund,it said"Bred and shown in two sizes, standard and miniature;Weight of the standard size is usually between 16 and 32 pounds"

So,your dachshund is 2 so,the weight is in between 16-32lb. or,you have mini dachshund??

And as for Yorkie,I read"Weight ; not exceed seven pounds. " and yours is 5lb. so,not over-weight I think.

>.Do you have little dogs?

Well, I say medium dog with stumpy legs;the Pembroke Welsh Corgi.

At AKC site,they say 28lb for female Corgi with 12inch height average,but my dog,palette is tall!! Height is about 14inch!! 2 inch taller than average corgi and her leg is not as thick and stumpy like the other Corgis that I see in Breed Calendar or something. She weigh 34lb but I am thinking,considering her height,maybe 30lb or so would be best for her. She has long back so,I especially like to be careful for weight. I of course,try feel ribs and look.she has good tummy-up so,she is not really over-weight though.

> If so wat type of foods work best for you.?

I first tried cut back up the portion about 10% daily,but it did not work too well.

So,I was thinking.. I should put an eye on daily cal because human or dog gain because human or dog does not burn cal they eats thus gain.

so, I first was walking once a day with her bbut after seeing she hit 36lb(6lb gain after switching to raw),I increased walking frequency and,we now do 2 times aday for walk and we do find it game after daily training time(dog have fun and without noticing,they are doing little bit of excersize,lol) and we play more inside than before.

so,I can say I try to moving her around more;more excersize.

And I keep cal and fat% on eye. I try her on about 40% fat intake and keep the cal around same range.

Like..Lamb tongue is 70 %fat,and if I feed it like before,one day,her fat% will be more than 70% and cal must be sky-high than she actually burn(fat gives more cal than carb or protin;1g of carb and protin gives 4 cal and same 1g fat gives 9cal).

ribs are high fat% too;60%.chicken feet 60% fat...

she still can eat lamb tongue but I do combo meal and play around so that the fat % would not exceed 40% or so,and cal would not be sky high.I would not be strickly try it to be on but roughly around the number that seems to work forher.

I could not play around too well 2 weeks ago, and her fat% that week was 46%,and that week was600cal or so.She gained 0.2lb.

Last week,I could back to 41% fat,500cal or so intake and she now back to 34lb.So,I am thinking 40%,500cal would be good number for her.

If I ever ask home-made nutrition people,palette's intake cal should be 1000cal!! Almost female human cal intake(am I right?)!! That is way way too much for her.

If she were not easy dog to gain weight,I would just go with look and feel but since she is easy to get gain weight(seems to be),I play with number now.

The food amount she gets are staying same as before,only what she gets,how she gets is changed.and she is doing great.Some week,depending on what she eats, she gets Egg 2 times per week,but sometimes only 1 per week,it all depends on how I can play with menu.
Sometimes, too much fat% and she gets 2 liver kinds one week but some week,she can get all 3 kinds of liver,but sometimes just one liver kinds.

I use www.nutritiondata.com

You can create your dog's pantry by register yourself and create and see your dog's rough cal intake(some are not listed there) your dog's fat% etc you can check on it.

And keeping journal is good too. You can look back andsee what did not work for you.Or what worked for you.

Cutting back amount may work for some dogs but just cutting back the amount of food has probably same fat% although cal may reduce down by making the meal small.

It did not work for my dog.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (8)
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8a. Re: Feeding venison
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 3:38 am ((PST))

>deer what do you think of feeding the organs to my dog?

Is your dog new to raw feeding? Have your dog eaten deer organ before? If not,maybe you liketo try slow to introduce,it is same if your dog had no deer meat before. Always new protin/item should be introduced slowly andone at a time after you see the dog digest the item you gave very well.But you are lucky! I see some road-kill deer nowandthen but never had Hunteror husband bring down animals to home.

>Although, it's not suppose to be in the deer this far down I just wonder how safe it is.

I have never done hunting before but my husbandonce told me that Hunters remove organ right away after kill and,stuck the tum with ice bags for safety.I forgot why hunter has to remove organ right away but he told me that it is so. Did your husband removed organ right away andseparate it from animal?

yassy

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9a. Re: Feeding organs;do we need to washthem before feeding???
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 3:38 am ((PST))

>I do have one dog who doesn't like pork organs but it doesn't make any difference whether they are washed or not. He doesn't like the flavor and won't eat them.

Hi,sandee.That was what I thought;even if washed, the smell or taste or texture dog may not like would not change... I thought Urine thing was human concern but wasnot sure if something bad in health-wise would happen to my dog if left unwashed although palette seems doing okay.I guess it is ok without washing it.

if your dog does not like pork organ like mine,did you try mixing it with egg? Not sure why but she gubbles down if mixed with Egg.If not,she leave it for me to find liver is left lonely inside the doggy bowl,lol.

Pork organ is not must item but,by doing so,I found out she eats it fine so I am feeding it with Egg.

yassy

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10a. Parasites?
Posted by: "sltahoek9s" crazy4k9@aol.com sltahoek9s
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 3:38 am ((PST))

Hi again,

I'm about 4 weeks in on raw. My 4 year old GSD is doing great, no real digestive issues
except occasional vomiting of bile and bones (improving) and no real upset so far. He started
with pork. I've since introduced him to turkey, chicken, rabbit and mackerel. I live in an area
with no real flea, tick or heartworm issues, but have traveled recently to areas that defintely
have them. I used an essential oil spray. I'm not sure if it is correlated, but the last week or
more, my GSD has been really licking at his anus. When I notice him, it seems to be a bit red
and irritated from his licking. Could this be from parasites? I haven't seen any worms in his
stool. Any ideas would be appreciated. Thanks for all the advice so far. I think i'm starting
to get the hang of things.

Tammy C

Messages in this topic (7)
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10b. Re: Parasites?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 6:25 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "sltahoek9s" <crazy4k9@...> wrote:
>
> I'm not sure if it is correlated, but the last week or
> more, my GSD has been really licking at his anus.

The most common cause of butt itch is anal gland. Have his stools
gotten real solid yet or are they on the soft side? Solid stools
usually take care of anal gland.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

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