Feed Pets Raw Food: Dec 14, 2007

Friday, December 14, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12377

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Feeding too much causing vomiting?
From: kaebruney
1b. Re: Feeding too much causing vomiting?
From: adkjoe17

2a. Re: How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
From: costrowski75
2b. Re: How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
From: costrowski75
2c. Re: How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
From: MORGAN LEWIS

3a. Re: Allergies and Raw
From: mgitaville
3b. Re: Allergies and Raw
From: Belinda van de Loo

4a. Re: meaty meat meals
From: Jamie Dolan

5. I have freezer burned raw meat to get rid of.
From: Anndrea

6a. Re: How to tell if it is any good?
From: Maria

7a. Feeding raw bones
From: Sai Simonson
7b. Re: Feeding raw bones
From: carnesbill

8a. not eating
From: hanson_jenlynn
8b. Re: not eating
From: katkellm
8c. Re: not eating
From: carnesbill

9a. Re: Anyone from Alabama?
From: Bumble1994@aol.com

10a. Papillon on raw
From: engel_a_amy
10b. Re: Papillon on raw
From: cypressbunny
10c. Re: Papillon on raw
From: Giselle
10d. Re: Papillon on raw
From: betty hinson

11a. Re: How long is "too long"
From: Michelle R
11b. Re: How long is "too long"
From: Michelle R
11c. Re: How long is "too long"
From: Michelle R
11d. Re: How long is "too long"
From: cypressbunny
11e. Re: How long is "too long"
From: katkellm

Messages
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1a. Re: Feeding too much causing vomiting?
Posted by: "kaebruney" kaebruney@yahoo.com kaebruney
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:07 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "adkjoe17" <j2dope17@...> wrote:
>
> Is it possible that If i feed to much at one sitting, 2-3 hours
later
> they could vomit up a lot of there meal still pretty whole and un-
> digested?

Yep.. definitely. It happens with mine from time to time. And it's
not necessarily too much food. It can be that they didn't chew
slowly, or that they ate too quickly from being particularlyu
hungry. Quite often for my little one, it's a bone that they didn't
chew properly that starts it and after they vomit they re-eat minus
that piece of bone.

Dogs are wonderful self regulators. if you notice it happening
regularly, I might feed bigger parts or even more frozen food (not
totally frozen, but partially) to slow them down while eating.

Don't worry mom.. it's all good. :0)

Kae

Messages in this topic (5)
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1b. Re: Feeding too much causing vomiting?
Posted by: "adkjoe17" j2dope17@yahoo.com adkjoe17
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:05 pm ((PST))

> Yep.. definitely. It happens with mine from time to time. And it's
> not necessarily too much food. It can be that they didn't chew
> slowly, or that they ate too quickly from being particularlyu
> hungry. Quite often for my little one, it's a bone that they didn't
> chew properly that starts it and after they vomit they re-eat minus
> that piece of bone.
>
> Dogs are wonderful self regulators. if you notice it happening
> regularly, I might feed bigger parts or even more frozen food (not
> totally frozen, but partially) to slow them down while eating.
>
> Don't worry mom.. it's all good. :0)
>
> Kae

Thanks everyone for the help and reassurance. She never vomits up her
meals so it was prob too much. she did eat it back up though so maybe
she scarfed it down, thanks!

Joe

Messages in this topic (5)
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2a. Re: How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:11 pm ((PST))

\ MORGAN LEWIS <shadowland22000@...> wrote:
>
> well somehow i missed BREED of this dog. morgan
*****
Well, heck and a half, Morgan. Looks like you also forgot to trim your
message! Not a good day so far, hey?

The breed in question is GSD.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (12)
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2b. Re: How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:14 pm ((PST))

Giselle <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
> As for my .02 cents on the original topic, Chris O already tossed the
coins
> into the kitty. ; )
*****
HA!
Wouldn't we make a great pair of big spenders? Atlantic City watch out.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (12)
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2c. Re: How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
Posted by: "MORGAN LEWIS" shadowland22000@yahoo.com shadowland22000
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:34 pm ((PST))

costrowski75 <Chriso75@AOL.COM> wrote:
Recent Activity

100
New Members

Visit Your Group
Moderator Central
Get answers to
your questions about
running Y! Groups.

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Yahoo! Group for
supporting your
HDTVs and devices.

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Health & Fitness
Find and share
weight loss tips.

well since yahoo, can not do what it was preset to do (cut) I'll do it the old fashion way. Now about the STUD, if the lady will send me a pedigree, I will forward to the head of GSDCA Health Committee, if there are any problems in the lines she will probably know them. Since this is not a genetics list please send privately, IBD and many other diseases flourish in the GSD. Part of the problem is genetic, part environment, part vaccination and a hell of a lot of it diet. Morgan

Morgan and His Angels
Precious, OFA
Princess, CGC, TDI, GSDCA Health Award

---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (12)
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3a. Re: Allergies and Raw
Posted by: "mgitaville" mgitaville@hotmail.com mgitaville
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:50 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Laura Opuszenski <opi1177@...> wrote:

>
> She is definitely having problems with something because she is
constantly itching. She wasn't having any problems vomiting until I
gave her the chicken. She threw up 10 minutes after eating it and then
for the following 2 days. So I am going to stay away from it for now. I
will check out that site. Thanks for the feedback.
>

*******I have to agree with what many of the previous posters stated.
First, I put as much stock in how accurate an allergy test as I would
put stock in me winning the lottery tomororow.

I noticed one CRITICAL piece of information was missed in the previous
posts. If a dog has true food allergies there is an 80% chance they
ALSO have enviormental allergies. So, for all you know the flare ups
could just as easily be caused by your laundry detergent, mold on wet
leaves outside, dust mites in the house, etc.

You don't have to go with chicken if you feel it is an allergy, but you
do need to do an elimination diet of sorts. You can not jump back and
forth between protein sources. I wouldn't even think about eggs, fish,
or organs for the first month. (many allergy dogs seem to have weak
digestive systems to go along with the allergies....not shocking since
this is a compromised immune system issue....so I would stick with
basics for a bit).

I suspect you will find that the real culprit is the grain in your
dog's diet. You may eventually find a protein source allergy too (lamb
is an issue for my allergy boy), but honestly he can tolerate now that
his immune system is healthy if needed. He itches for a few days and
licks his paws, but no more hives and hotspots.

It can take up to 8 weeks for an allergic reaction to stop being
present even after the allergen has been removed from your dog's diet
so to feed chicken for 3 days and declare it an issue is a bit over
zealous in my opinion. Like I said above though, pick a different meat
and then stick with it for several weeks before trying something new.

I still go back to the way I started this post as your first step....
ignore the allergy test results.

Marguerita

Messages in this topic (9)
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3b. Re: Allergies and Raw
Posted by: "Belinda van de Loo" auntielindyloo@yahoo.com belindavandeloo
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:09 pm ((PST))

Hello Laura,
Your situation sounds so much like mine with my westie. At 6-8 months
he was miserable (and so was I!) with all his scratching and itchies.
After another 9 months of detective work and diet changes (elimination
and otherwise) I realized that it was all brought on by his booster
vaccinations. I went to a homeopathic vet, she gave him a remedy and
the itchies were over. A large contributor to his turnaround was, of
course, a raw diet. For quite some time I had to stick with a unique
protein like lamb or goat or rabbit. But after his immune system
calmed down he can now tolerate any meat - and is thriving. It's my
dream-come-true, my heartache over!
He is now 4 and a half and the picture of health.
Hang in there and don't give up or give in.
See a homeopathic vet (classical) and find a unique protein source for
your dear dog.
Blessings,
Belinda and "Honey" from Holland

Messages in this topic (9)
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4a. Re: meaty meat meals
Posted by: "Jamie Dolan" jamiedolan@gmail.com jamiedolan
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:09 pm ((PST))

HI:

> "Jamie is right.. BUT.. remember that only a very small portion of the
> overall
> diet needs to be edible bone. And pork bones are entirely edible for
> all but
> the very tiniest dogs".

My largest boy is 19 pounds. Perhaps they could infact handle some
pork bones, but I always suspected that most pork bones were too tough
for my boys. However that said, If I had larger dogs, I would not be
afraid of feeding them pork bones.

> Since I am only on my second day of the switch to RMB I do not expect
> to get all my answers at once..However, I am a little confused. I want
> to be sure I am on the right track. I was going to keep the boys (mini
> poodles) on chicken backs and wings or thighs for a couple of weeks
> initially. Is this going to be too much bone for them? I see some say
> you don't need bone every day. Should I be using boneless chicken
> breast or ground chicken? Thanks in advance!

I would add in some boneless meat, but I would keep a good amount of
bone in the diet in the begining. Some dogs have a smidge of trouble
making the switch in the begining. A bit of extra bones can help
makes things a bit easier. Just don't get in the habbit long term of
feeding too much bone.

Honestly, I would just get some whole chickens. If you are just
buying chickens from the grocery, you can find chickens for around
$1.19 a pound or less in the midwest. I'd buy whole chickens and feed
them whole or cut them up a bit if necessary for feeding.

Whatever you get, I would only get ground meat if you have to due to
cost. Giving them meat to chew on is far more enjoyable for the dogs.
i.e. I feed ground beef to the dogs at time because when I buy a cow
you get a lot of group beef, and I have to use it up somehow. I can
only eat so much ground beef. The dogs and the humans here all perfer
the roasts, but thoses go quickly. We have eaten half a cow of roasts
in 3 weeks.

Good Luck

Jamie

Messages in this topic (9)
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5. I have freezer burned raw meat to get rid of.
Posted by: "Anndrea" anndreae@yahoo.com anndreae
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:28 pm ((PST))

I have a bunch of ground organic beef/hamburger, some steaks, ribs, etc.

I don't honestly remember how much of what.

I got it a while back from someone who had it for a long time. It has
stayed frozen the whole time.

It is SEVERELY freezer burned, and I don't know if that effects the
nutritional value, or edibility (is that a word? LOL) for the dogs/cats.

I am moving away and the freezer needs to be emptied.

If anyone is interested, please email me and let me know.

It's free, and if possible I would like one person to take it all, but
am open to whatever.

I leave Monday, and my sister will have it until someone comes and gets
it or she will eventually toss it if no one does.

Please let me know.

We are in Rockwood (kind of between Portland and Gresham) in Oregon.

Thanks!

anndrea

Messages in this topic (1)
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6a. Re: How to tell if it is any good?
Posted by: "Maria" plava_93@yahoo.com plava_93
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:52 pm ((PST))

I gave the dogs thier first meal of stinky deer a few days ago. They
loved it! Their wasn't any chemical warfair after it either. No stink
bombs or connon butt. Yay for road kill!

Maria

Messages in this topic (5)
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7a. Feeding raw bones
Posted by: "Sai Simonson" saiczarina@comcast.net keikokat
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:53 pm ((PST))

For what it is worth!

My dog trainer was all upset because her veterinarian told her that the
reason her ten year old Brittany was extremely sick with bacteria
affecting her liver that it was the raw bones that carry this bacteria.
The theory being that her stomach was scratched and healed but the
bacteria got into the bloodstream and infected the liver. This dog (an
all her dogs) have had raw bones all their lives without problems. The
trainer was quite distressed. The vet also added that older dogs and
young dogs were most susceptible. This will not make a whit of
difference to me as I am seeing happy energetic Borzois. But I pass it
on in case there is any documentation out there to refute these claims.

--
*~~ SaiCzarina*

Messages in this topic (2)
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7b. Re: Feeding raw bones
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:45 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Sai Simonson <saiczarina@...>
wrote:
>
> For what it is worth!
>
> My dog trainer was all upset because her veterinarian told her
> that the
> reason her ten year old Brittany was extremely sick with bacteria
> affecting her liver that it was the raw bones that carry
> this bacteria.

Well, the vet had to come up with some story and this is as good as
any EXCEPT the true one. This story is fantasy.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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8a. not eating
Posted by: "hanson_jenlynn" hanson_jenlynn@yahoo.com hanson_jenlynn
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:23 pm ((PST))

MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS!!!

i have been feeding my dog raw for about 2 1/2months now and she has
been loving it. however she recently has decided that she won't eat her
raw chicken. 5 out of 7 days she gets chicken and the other 2 days she
either gets pork or beef. on monday she ate her pork neck like a little
trooper.. however she hasn't eaten any of her chicken this week.
tomorrow she is supposed to have beef ribs and liver. i know she isn't
starving but i have a whole freezer full of chicken she won't eat!
should i be feeding her more beef/pork than chicken? and what if she
never returns to eating chicken? is that a problem? thanks in advance

Messages in this topic (23)
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8b. Re: not eating
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:07 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "hanson_jenlynn"
<hanson_jenlynn@...> wrote:

> should i be feeding her more beef/pork than chicken? and what if she
> never returns to eating chicken? is that a problem? thanks in addvance

Hi,
I think that your menu, 5 out of 7 days being chicken, is definitely
chicken heavy. So, yes i would offer more pork and beef. A variety of
parts from a variety of critters is a good thing to remember. Chicken
is not a must eat item, so if you don't care if your dog doesn't eat
chicken, its not a big deal. However, since you have a freezer with
chicken in it and chicken is cheap which allows your budget to spend
more money on beef and such, i would not let my dog get away with not
eating chicken. I would feed a little variety for a week or so and
then offer chicken as the entree. If your dog doesn't eat the chicken
after about 10 mins. pick it up and put it away for the next feeding.
No treats or snacks in between. Don't beg your dog to eat or get
upset if she doesn't. Eventually she'll eat the chicken because a
healthy dog won't starve itself to death. I see this as a win/win
deal for both of you. Your dog gets more variety and you don't have to
break the bank offering it. KathyM

Messages in this topic (23)
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8c. Re: not eating
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:46 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "hanson_jenlynn"
<hanson_jenlynn@...> wrote:
>
> i have been feeding my dog raw for about 2 1/2months now and
> she has
> been loving it. however she recently has decided that she
> won't eat her raw chicken.

Your dog will be just as healthy if she never eats chicken again.
However, picky eaters are made and not born and you are making a
picky eater. I don't allow my dogs to tell me what they won't eat.
If they don't eat something, after about 10 minutes of no interest,
I take it up and put it in the fridge only to bring it out next
meal. I repeat this step until that particular thing is eaten. My
dogs know they won't get fussed at if they don't eat but they don't
get anything else until that item is eaten.

Today it was chicken, tomorrow it may be pork, the next day it may
be beef. What are you going to do then? The solution is not to let
that mindset creep into your dogs minds. If they gain nothing from
being picky, that behavior will soon stop.

> and what if she never returns to eating chicken?

Then plan on your dog food buget increasing greatly.

> is that a problem?

Not for the dog but it is for your pocketbook.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (23)
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9a. Re: Anyone from Alabama?
Posted by: "Bumble1994@aol.com" Bumble1994@aol.com bumble1994
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:37 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 12/14/2007 2:43:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, "Debbie"
writes:

I've been *lurking* here for a while now, and thought I'd say hi.
Thanks for the wealth of information you've provided, it's been very
reassuring during my transition to RAW.

****
Hi, Deb,

I've lived in Kentucky for 35 years, but Alabama's still "my home.: Roll
Tide, Roll!

Lynda

**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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10a. Papillon on raw
Posted by: "engel_a_amy" engel_a_amy@yahoo.com engel_a_amy
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:37 pm ((PST))

I have an 11 month old papillon that I just recently switched to a raw
diet(less than 2 weeks ago). The only problem is that everytime I look
for him in the house, he is in his crate waiting for more food! I fed
him almost 7oz of food today with no ill effects(yet), but that is way
more than the 3% of his adult weight(7#) that is recommended. He has
always been a super picky eater and I am glad he loves to eat now, but
I certainly don't want to go overboard. Any advise?
Thanks,
Amy

Messages in this topic (4)
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10b. Re: Papillon on raw
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:22 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "engel_a_amy" <engel_a_amy@...>
wrote:
>
> > I certainly don't want to go overboard. Any advise?

I feed puppies all they can eat. If they get plump, I reduce the number
of feedings per day. I prefer that they learn to self regulate. As they
mature, I move them onto the gorge and fast plan, and increase/decrease
the size of the gorge meals according to the thinness/plumpness of the
individual dog. If your pup is looking for more food, sounds like he in
hungry!

Carrie

Messages in this topic (4)
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10c. Re: Papillon on raw
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:40 pm ((PST))

What Carrie said!!

Teeny littles often need more than just 3% of their body weight, even as
adults.

TC
Giselle

>
> I feed puppies all they can eat. If they get plump, I reduce the number
> of feedings per day. I prefer that they learn to self regulate. As they
> mature, I move them onto the gorge and fast plan, and increase/decrease
> the size of the gorge meals according to the thinness/plumpness of the
> individual dog. If your pup is looking for more food, sounds like he in
> hungry!
>
> Carrie
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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10d. Re: Papillon on raw
Posted by: "betty hinson" b_hinson@sbcglobal.net paps4jesus
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:16 pm ((PST))

I have a 2 1/2 year old Pap a, 10 year old one and a 11 1/2 and theyget more then 2 % of their body weight. I feed what they will eat to their tolerance
Betty Hinson
b_hinson@sbcglobal.net

Messages in this topic (4)
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11a. Re: How long is "too long"
Posted by: "Michelle R" crested_dog8@yahoo.com crested_dog8
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:09 pm ((PST))

Kathy, thanks very much for the input. They havent been chewing them yet...but since they have stripped them I will go ahead and toss them...and actually they are "hindquarter" bones...not like the spindly actual leg parts... does that make a difference?

Michelle Radcliff
Mengshi Chinese Cresteds
http://www.geocities.com/crested_dog8/mengshihome.html

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Messages in this topic (9)
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11b. Re: How long is "too long"
Posted by: "Michelle R" crested_dog8@yahoo.com crested_dog8
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:07 pm ((PST))

Actually they arent the real legs but rather.....bigger bones.... I deboned a hindquarter and a shoulder and left a good bit of meat on them to entertain the kids.....thats what I mean by leg bones....does this make a difference. I didnt mean the actual legs...these are larger..dogs arent chewing them...just draggin them around and acting like the little predators they are. :-) Since I brought home 3 more tonite I will go ahead and toss these 2, but for future knowledge....

Michelle Radcliff
Mengshi Chinese Cresteds
http://www.geocities.com/crested_dog8/mengshihome.html

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Messages in this topic (9)
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11c. Re: How long is "too long"
Posted by: "Michelle R" crested_dog8@yahoo.com crested_dog8
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:07 pm ((PST))

Thanks very much Bill! Your comments and advice are much appreciated.

Michelle Radcliff
Mengshi Chinese Cresteds
http://www.geocities.com/crested_dog8/mengshihome.html

____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
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Messages in this topic (9)
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11d. Re: How long is "too long"
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:40 pm ((PST))

*** Biologically speaking, as long as the meat has been exposed to air,
it is unlikely to harbor dangerous anaerobic bacteria. Physically
speaking, if the dogs have been chewing on bones denuded of meat, it is
time to remove the bones lest they become wreck bones rather than rec
bones.

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (9)
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11e. Re: How long is "too long"
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:07 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Michelle R <crested_dog8@...> wrote:
and actually they are "hindquarter" bones...not like the spindly
actual leg parts... does that make a difference?

Hi Michelle,
I don't think it makes a difference because inedible bone is inedible
bone no matter where it comes from. Bones that are too dense to be
eaten by a dog, some of the definition of too dense relates to the
size of the dog and some bones, such as beef legs.., are just too hard
for any dog, wear down a dog's teeth or crack a tooth in an attempt by
a dog to turn the inedible into the edible. If your dog is chewing on
a bone and isn't making any progress, the bone should be removed. I
offer cow legs, hide and hoof attached, and remove them when they are
bare naked bones. Removing the hide and sinew and whatever is a great
dental workout, but after that is accomplished the legs serve no
purpose. Two of my dogs just leave cow leg bones when they are
stripped, but my lab tries to eat the bone, and so i just pick up and
toss. KathyM

Messages in this topic (9)
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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12376

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Feeding too much causing vomiting?
From: Andrea

2a. Re: How long is "too long"
From: Andrea
2b. Re: How long is "too long"
From: carnesbill
2c. Re: How long is "too long"
From: katkellm

3a. Re: meaty meat meals
From: cynthiashankman
3b. Re: meaty meat meals
From: costrowski75

4a. A question about stool
From: blue eyed

5a. Re: Boo's $2500 surgery for stones
From: Jacinta Loo

6a. Allergies and Raw
From: blue eyed

7a. Re: chicken liver
From: metra_co

8a. How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
From: markmdevlin
8b. Re: How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
From: Andrea
8c. Re: How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
From: costrowski75
8d. Re: How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
From: Casey Post
8e. Re: How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
From: katkellm
8f. Re: How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
From: Scott Baker
8g. Re: How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
From: MORGAN LEWIS
8h. Re: How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
From: Chia
8i. Re: How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
From: Giselle

9a. Re: Dinky update
From: Giselle
9b. Re: Dinky update
From: Sandee Lee

10a. Re: pregant or nursing dogs
From: merril Woolf
10b. Re: pregant or nursing dogs
From: Laura Atkinson

11a. Anyone from Alabama?
From: Debbie
11b. Re: Anyone from Alabama?
From: donna

Messages
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1a. Re: Feeding too much causing vomiting?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:55 am ((PST))

> Is it possible that If i feed to much at one sitting, 2-3 hours later
> they could vomit up a lot of there meal still pretty whole and un-
> digested?

Yup, sounds like your girl ate more than she was used to and probably
ate it too quickly or didn't chew it much at all. If she was willing
to re-eat it I'd say she just ate too large too fast. If she wasn't
into re-eating it she probably just ate too much.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (3)
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2a. Re: How long is "too long"
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:59 am ((PST))

My first concern would be the dogs chewing on the leg bones of the
deer. If they are working on the sinew and such still attached to the
bones you can leave them out until they loose interest. If, however,
they are gnawing on the bones I would toss them out right now. In
answer to "how long is too long," as long as the dog has interest in it
it's ok IMO.

Andrea

-- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Michelle R <crested_dog8@...> wrote:

> I have 2 deer legs....most meat is gone by now, but the dogs still
> chomp and drag them around like prizes when they are out. Legs have
> been out for 2 and 3 days.

Messages in this topic (4)
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2b. Re: How long is "too long"
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:23 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Michelle R <crested_dog8@...>
wrote:
>
> I know they can be out waaaaay longer and still be ok for
> dogs than people, I am just wondering how long is "too long"...
> how do you know?

There is no "too long". Don't worry about them.

> Should I just chuck them when they seem to lose interest and
> not before?

You can but they will probably be gone before the dogs loose
interest.

> What if they keep at them for weeks? Whats the consensus on
> this from you long time folks?

Weeks is fine if they last that long. Months is ok.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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2c. Re: How long is "too long"
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:40 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Michelle R <crested_dog8@...> wrote:
I have 2 deer legs....most meat is gone by now, but the dogs still
chomp and drag them around like prizes when they are out.

Hi Michelle,
If they are stripped of meat, i think you should toss them. Not
because they are too old, but because they have, because of the size
of your dogs, become wreck bones-as in crack teeth. I have big dogs
who crunch right through deer legs without much thought, and so for
them i consider the bone edible. Anytime the meat is gone and the dog
needs to really work at the bone, imo, they have become inedible for
that particular dog. If you are sure that they aren't chewing on them
and just using them as fetch, tug of war, play things, i guess they
would be ok forever. KathyM

Messages in this topic (4)
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3a. Re: meaty meat meals
Posted by: "cynthiashankman" ShankMa4@aol.com cynthiashankman
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:23 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "katkellm" <katkellm@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "marge" <marge_moriarty17551@>
> wrote:
> I was going to keep the boys (mini
> > poodles) on chicken backs and wings or thighs for a couple of
weeks
> > initially. Is this going to be too much bone for them?

~**~ I feel your confusion Marge. and yes, IMO that is too much
bone. I'm glad you are clearing this up right at the beginning of
your raw adventure. When I started, back 4 months ago, (I still
consider myself new at this) it took some trial and error and lots of
reading for me to realize that only 10% of the diet is edible bone
and that many many meals do not include bone. It's confusing because
of "raw meaty bones" name and using suggested chicken (with bone) in
the first week. Just wanted to add my support and glad to see you
are getting clarification early on from Kathy below and others that
will probably follow.

Cindi
>
> Hi Marge,
> If your dogs experience no loose stools, not to be confused with
> diarrhea where you think bacteria and illness, just the kind of
stools
> that are incurred by some dogs with the body adjusting to digesting
> some new proteins, a couple of weeks is probably longer than you
need
> to stick with one protein. After the first week, i would introduce
a
> new meat. Chicken for a week is not too much bone for a new dog.
> Forever, its too much bone, but balance is achieved over time and
the
> what you should do now is not necessarily the what you should/will
do
> forever. Backs and wings are the boniest of the pieces of chicken,
so
> my recommendation would be to use more breasts, or thighs, or
> drumsticks.
>
> > I see some say
> > you don't need bone every day. Should I be using boneless
chicken
> > breast or ground chicken?
>
> In the long haul of raw feeding you don't need to feed bone everyday
> or with every meal. 10% of the diet just ain't a lot of bone, but
in
> the first few weeks of raw feeding you can use the extra bone since
> bone firms up stools. Again, the what you should do now in the
> introduction phase is a little different than the forever of raw
> feeding. If your dogs seem to get constipated, you can
> feed a little boneless chicken because meat will loosen things up.
I
> wouldn't use ground meat. Let your dogs' teeth do the grinding.
HTH,
> KathyM
>

Messages in this topic (8)
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3b. Re: meaty meat meals
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:42 am ((PST))

"marge" <marge_moriarty17551@...> wrote:
I am a little confused.
*****
LOL If you are only a little confused, you've not done your share of
reading.

I want
> to be sure I am on the right track.
*****
Ditching kibble and feeding raw puts you on the right track,
automatically. However, you wanna make sure you're getting off at
the right stop.

I was going to keep the boys (mini
> poodles) on chicken backs and wings or thighs for a couple of weeks
> initially.
*****
Feeding wings and backs without supporting meatymeat is getting off
the train at the wrong station. Thighs are much better, though all
of these parts are plenty bony. I think relying solely on bony parts
for two weeks is about a week too long unless you are dealing with
specific and known health issues. Otherwise, you're just postponing
having to introduce meatymeat.

Meat should run the train, rule the roost, lead the parade, get top
billing, be the big kahuna--the top banana. So don't stay away from
it too long.

Is this going to be too much bone for them?
*****
Spread over a period of time, nope. Fed exclusively, yes from a
dietary perspective and probably, from the perspective of comfortable
stools.

I see some say
> you don't need bone every day.
*****
Considering nutritional needs, your dogs don't need bone every day,
not even every other day. Depending on how much edible bone you feed
in any given meal, you may not need to include bone for three or four
days.

From a "stool management" perspective though, you may find your dogs
regulate themselves better/have more socially acceptable stools if
fed some small amount of bone every day. Some people who feed twice
a day feed a bone-in meal and a boneless meal. Some people whose
dogs have very precarious digestive systems find a bit of bone every
meal is what saves the day.

A dog without digestive issues (other than the preliminary "too much
too soon" blues) does not require much dietary bone. That means 10%-
15% edible bone, which--translated into real life--means a dog that
eats, say, 35 ounces a WEEK would need but four or five ounces of
edible bone a WEEK. Not much at all!

Should I be using boneless chicken
> breast or ground chicken?
*****
Your minis come equipped with their own grinders. They're called
teeth and you can't do better than that. Add whole boneless chicken
to those bony meals, feed body parts that come naturally with more
meat/less bone (rib-in breasts are good), include boneless meals in
the menu plan.

And while you're relying on chicken parts, research other options.
For small dogs, rabbit and quail are good "different but still easy
bones" choices, as are lamb breasts, pork riblets and small whole
fish. Your boneless meat choices are much more varied, since any
meat without bone counts. The only deciders would be your budget and
your dogs' specific likes and dislikes.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (8)
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4a. A question about stool
Posted by: "blue eyed" eyed_blue@yahoo.co.uk eyed_blue
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:23 am ((PST))

Yes this is normal and actually very good as it means that your dog is now using the food provided to get good nourishment and all that is left to poo out is waste, much less waste than pet food as there are no 'fillers' in fresh raw meaty bones.

My dog will poo as many times as he has had meals but all the poo is much smaller and firmer. You will also start to see that your dog has a 'transit time' so you can forward plan when he will need out which is handy if you are travelling, nights out etc. For my dog (although I would imagine all dogs are different and some will depend whats been eaten) its eight hours, so if I feed him I know that once he is finished eating he will need out to poo in eight hours time from then.

I had to adjust his feeding times when I switched him to raw as he was needing out at awkward times so can be handy to keep a little food diary for them in the beginning but no need to obsess over tiny details just times and what was fed and rough amount so that if he gets the runs/constipated you can check and see why/too much of a food, new food, extra bone etc can also help you to see when he will need out etc. Im not saying you need to keep this for much of a length of time just handy in the begining.

Hope this helps
Natalie

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Messages in this topic (4)
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5a. Re: Boo's $2500 surgery for stones
Posted by: "Jacinta Loo" jacintaloo@gmail.com junglemonkey718
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:23 am ((PST))

Hi Jai, a great way I found to get my girl to drink more water when I
want her to be more hydrated is to squirt a pump of salmon body oil
in a bowl of water. Or i squeeze a couple of drops of bloody liver
juice or heart or whatever into the water. She slurps it down no
problem.

HTH!

Jacinta
On Dec 13, 2007, at 8:31 PM, Sandee Lee wrote:

> Jai,
>
> Gosh, sounds awful. Glad he survived this and is doing ok now!
>
> It is my understanding that the stones form when the urine is
> concentrated
> which happens when a dog is dehydrated. A raw diet is high in
> moisture so
> dogs generally drink less...not sure how to make them drink more. I
> wonder
> if chicken broth would help?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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6a. Allergies and Raw
Posted by: "blue eyed" eyed_blue@yahoo.co.uk eyed_blue
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:47 am ((PST))

<I was feeding her NV Venison raw medallions, but had to stop with that
because she is allergic to flax and eggs which is in that food. She is
also allergic to poultry, soy, barley, corn and oats>

Most of these ingredients (other than poultry) are not needed by your dog and are prime suspects in most allergy cases, from what I gather. However lots of people say that their dog cannot tolerate cooked foods well (this includes my dog) yet can eat the same foods raw without a problem, when they tested did they test poultry or certain poultry? ie a mix of or only turkey and chicken?

If it was me I would start with a prey model style diet, cutting out all grains and you can always start with Lamb? This has nice soft edible bones (to keep teeth clean and stools firm) and you can buy the flank cheap enough to start with, should also keep a yorkie working away a little while! You might want to remove some of the fat to start with just until she is doing ok with it. I wouldnt introduce anything else for a week at least as she is so sensitive. You can always add some lean lamb mince if the stools are too firm with this.

Hope this helps,

Natalie

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Messages in this topic (7)
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7a. Re: chicken liver
Posted by: "metra_co" metraco@hotmail.com metra_co
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:47 am ((PST))

The only way I was able to get Rusty to eat any liver was to dice it
and mix it in ground green tripe. That stuff is so stinky (and dogs
looove it sooo much) that it gets swallowed in a couple gulps. Now
Rusty will actually eat chunks of frozen beef liver plain, but other
organs still need to be mixed with tripe.

Metra

:
>
> LOL...I tried to introduce a tiny itty bitty single diced piece of
liver, in the middle of ground beef, just as Chris suggested. I have
also hidden it among a pile of venison, or chicken, or turkey or
whatever...I always find the tiny itty bitty piece of liver sitting
alone. Its become quite a challenge. I>
>
________________________________________________________________________
____________
> Looking for last minute shopping deals?
> Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
>
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>

Messages in this topic (11)
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8a. How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
Posted by: "markmdevlin" markmdevlin@yahoo.com markmdevlin
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:03 am ((PST))

MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS!!!

Hi, We have recently switched to raw food, a few months or so. We have
10 German Shepherds. The problem is hubbie and I disagree on the
measures. I want to feed 3-4LBs per day, and hubbie feels this is way
too much and wants me to feed 2LBs a day. I think this is way to small
an amount. My dogs are good sized/large boned German Shepherds. The
main feeding component of our diet is mostly green tripe, with days of
offal and pork hocks/pigs feet. I do feed pork riblets at times, but
prefer the hocks, as more meat and bone on them. The argument he states
is that raw is more highly digestable than kibble. I understand this,
but i'm just not in agreement with his maths. I'm also useless at maths
so I tend to get blindsided. So I thought I'd ask other peoples
opinions, who are more experienced.
Another problem is we recently purchased an unrelated dog for stud
purposes. Shortly after we purchased him, we noticed very loose bloody
mucous type stools. We changed his diet to a high quality kibble, to no
effect. He was prescribed medication from the vet Metronidazole 250mgs
x 3 every 12 hours for 7 days. Again to no effect, and is currently on
another course. The breeder denies I.B.D. in his lines. I have put him
on a raw diet, with no improvement. Any thoughts greatly appreciated.

Messages in this topic (9)
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8b. Re: How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:30 am ((PST))

How much to feed depends a lot on what looks good on the dog. A good
starting point is about 2% of the ideal adult weight. Assuming a
large GSD would be somewhere around 100lbs, you're looking at 2 lbs a
day. Seems to me that 3-4lbs a day is too much for this size of
dog. If you are feeding 2 lbs a day and see that the dog needs more
you can easily add more food.

> The main feeding component of our diet is mostly green tripe, with
> days of offal and pork hocks/pigs feet. I do feed pork riblets at
> times, but prefer the hocks, as more meat and bone on them.

Though green tripe is a fun treat for dogs and most love it, it isn't
sufficient for the staple of a dog's diet. I'd be more comfortable
if the main component was pork shoulders, sides of goat, or whatever
is convenient for you to get. Keep in mind that you want a good
variety of parts and animals to feed.

> So I thought I'd ask other peoples opinions, who are more
> experienced.

FWIW, my 60lb GSP mix eats the equivalent of around 1 lb of food a
day. My Newf mix puppy eats closer to 3 lbs a day. We don't know
how big he'll end up, but this amount looks good on him.

> I have put him on a raw diet, with no improvement.

Is he eating the same meals as the others? You might want to start
with something easy like chicken for him. Feed him nothing but
chicken for a couple of weeks and see if that helps him get things in
order. Pork feet and hocks can tend to be pretty fatty and make
loose stools.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (9)
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8c. Re: How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:19 am ((PST))

"markmdevlin" <markmdevlin@...> wrote:
The problem is hubbie and I disagree on the
> measures.
*****
Actually, I see other issues (if not actual "problems") as well.

I want to feed 3-4LBs per day, and hubbie feels this is way
> too much and wants me to feed 2LBs a day. I think this is way to
small
> an amount.
*****
Ultimately the scale can only trip you up. Feed amounts that look
good on the dog. Each dog will have different requirements and it
would be overly simplistic to assume that a set dose will work for
all your dogs. Both you and your husband must learn to trust that
your dogs will show you when they need more or less food.

So. Do your dogs look good (however you choose to apply the term) or
are they unthrifty and generally seem below expectation? If they are
really skinny (hips, ribs, spine protrude) or are really porky (no
tuck up, no waist, rolls of fat at the neck and base of tail) feed
more or less as needed; also consider revising the menu.

The amount may be two pounds or four pounds; it may change from
summer to winter, from activity to activity, from dog to dog. The
effective amount is what it is.

The
> main feeding component of our diet is mostly green tripe, with days
of
> offal and pork hocks/pigs feet. I do feed pork riblets at times, but
> prefer the hocks, as more meat and bone on them.
*****
Until you beat green tripe back to a more appropriate place in the
menu, you can't really judge if the amounts you feed are optimal.
Green tripe does not have the credentials to be the star performer.
Meat (on the bone, off the bone: meat) is what you need to feed most
of. "Meat" means fat, skin and connective tissue as well as flesh.

From the looks of it, you are feeding green tripe at the expense of
meat (including heart, unless the offal you offer includes it). You
seem to feeding plenty of fat and bones (pork hocks and riblets are
famously bony and fatty but weak on the flesh). I recommend you
replace at least half the green tripe with meat. Pork, chicken,
turkey, beef, lamb, goat, rabbit, venison, fish. Meat.

The argument he states
> is that raw is more highly digestable than kibble. I understand
this,
> but i'm just not in agreement with his maths.
*****
Both of you: Skip the book learning and learn to read your dogs.
They truly will not lie. They cannot. Numbers can lie, and will.

> Another problem is we recently purchased an unrelated dog for stud
> purposes. Shortly after we purchased him, we noticed very loose
bloody
> mucous type stools. We changed his diet to a high quality kibble,
to no
> effect. He was prescribed medication from the vet Metronidazole
250mgs
> x 3 every 12 hours for 7 days. Again to no effect, and is currently
on
> another course. The breeder denies I.B.D. in his lines.
*****
If you are feeding him what you are feeding your dogs, I doubt you're
doing anything constructive for his digestive system. For him, for
now, lots of green tripe may be a good answer. But certainly ditch
the pork and the fat. Feed lean meat and easy bones in multiple
small meats. Consider skinless, rib-in chicken breast and white
fish. Also consider sprinkling some Slippery Elm powder over his
green tripe to ease his irritated intestines.

A breeder in good conscience can swear up and down there is no IBD in
a dog's pedigree as long as no one has bothered to identify or even
address digestive issues. It could well be there but kennel
blindness will only admit otherwise. I would disregard the breeder's
assurances and feed the guy like he's got IBD.

Meanwhile you can be exploring other potential causes like giardia or
stress. Perhaps it might have been a better idea to breed your
bitches to him in the comfort and security of his own home.

Have you done a full blood panel workup?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (9)
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8d. Re: How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:21 am ((PST))

I was going to reply to this about green tripe not being the ideal base for
a diet, how you'd be better off with large meaty parts, how 3-4 pounds
sounds like too much food, but it would depend on the dog and his activity
level/metabolism, and how the new dog might do better with less green tripe
and bony things (hocks and such are pretty bony) and more meaty RMB's like
chicken or whatever, but...

Andrea got there first and covered it all! <g>

Casey

Messages in this topic (9)
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8e. Re: How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:23 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "markmdevlin" <markmdevlin@...> wrote:
The problem is hubbie and I disagree on the
> measures. I want to feed 3-4LBs per day, and hubbie feels this is way
> too much and wants me to feed 2LBs a day.

I feel like i am betraying the sacred sisterhood of woman, but i have
to agree with your hubby. Your dogs would have to weigh 150lbs for me
to recommend 3lbs of food a day. However, there are exceptions, and
so you need to judge what amount is correct by the appearance of your
dogs. Start feeding at 2lbs a day and watch for weight loss. Adjust
the amount according to the dog's looks, not the math.

I have put him
> on a raw diet, with no improvement. Any thoughts greatly appreciated.

I think that you need to start his raw diet off with a newbie
approach. Tripe and pork hocks probably shouldn't find themselves on
the menu of new to raw food dogs. Feed him 2% of his ideal body
weight a day. Start off with one protein, i would vote for chicken,
and feed only chicken for a week. If he has loose stools, you can
remove the skin and the fat. Tripe can cause loose stools in seasoned
raw fed dogs and pork hocks are too fatty for a new to raw dog.
Operator error has been known to cause lots of grief for newbie dogs.
Good Luck, KathyM

Messages in this topic (9)
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8f. Re: How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
Posted by: "Scott Baker" scottsbaker@gmail.com scottpsbaker
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:23 am ((PST))

Yeah Each dog is different, but my 125lb dog eats maybe 2lbs a day.

On Dec 14, 2007 1:30 PM, Andrea <poketmouse45@yahoo.com> wrote:

> How much to feed depends a lot on what looks good on the dog. A good
> starting point is about 2% of the ideal adult weight. Assuming a
> large GSD would be somewhere around 100lbs, you're looking at 2 lbs a
> day. Seems to me that 3-4lbs a day is too much for this size of
> dog. If you are feeding 2 lbs a day and see that the dog needs more
> you can easily add more food.
>

--
Scott

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Messages in this topic (9)
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8g. Re: How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
Posted by: "MORGAN LEWIS" shadowland22000@yahoo.com shadowland22000
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:27 am ((PST))

well somehow i missed BREED of this dog. morgan

costrowski75 <Chriso75@AOL.COM> wrote: "markmdevlin" <markmdevlin@...> wrote:
The problem is hubbie and I disagree on the
> measures.
*****
Actually, I see other issues (if not actual "problems") as well.

The amount may be two pounds or four pounds; it may change from
summer to winter, from activity to activity, from dog to dog. The
effective amount is what it is.

Meanwhile you can be exploring other potential causes like giardia or
stress. Perhaps it might have been a better idea to breed your
bitches to him in the comfort and security of his own home.

Have you done a full blood panel workup?
Chris O

Morgan and His Angels
Precious, OFA
Princess, CGC, TDI, GSDCA Health Award

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8h. Re: How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:04 am ((PST))

Yeah Each dog is different, but my 125lb dog eats maybe 2lbs a day.

### also, experienced raw fed dogs, who know no different, will self
regulate. (not all, but I can assure you, MANY do)..it's like a
sophisticated, instinctual, natural appetite as nature meant their appetites
to be...

My 50 lb dog will easily eat a 2 -3lb meal and then not eat for the next
two days...

Experience creates the confidence to our 'know thy dog' mantra. It also
creates experience in yourself, with the visual eye check of how your dog
appears and how his rib cage feels when you run your hands over it. It
would be so simple it was just like a bag of crap, give a cup of food, once
per day... but... with natural, real food, varying metabolisms, fitness
levels, and age, one can see why SO many dogs are malnourished on either
having a regulated feeding of kibble, OR, worse still, free feeding of
kibble.

C hia & Ricco

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8i. Re: How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:28 am ((PST))

Hi, Morgan!
There's no relevance for specific breed, except to point
out the approximate size of the dogs the OP is feeding.

If you read the second sentence and the fifth sentence of the original post,
your Q will be answered.

And, there are 10 of them.

As for my .02 cents on the original topic, Chris O already tossed the coins
into the kitty. ; )

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On Dec 14, 2007 1:25 PM, MORGAN LEWIS <shadowland22000@yahoo.com> wrote:

> well somehow i missed BREED of this dog. morgan
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

9a. Re: Dinky update
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:14 am ((PST))

Hi, Cathy!
IME, IBD/IBS is a 'rule out everything else testable' kinda
diagnosis.

*S*lippery *E*lm *B*ark *P*owder

I would give her as much protein variety with bone and organ as she does
well on. I know, its hard to experiment when it might result in disaster,
but adding a taste of this and a bit of that to a well tolerated protein
works. Liver is important, and so is bone. Gristle, or cartilage, the white
'soft bone' at the ends of most bones, is easily digestible and can entirely
satisfy the need for bone in a tiny dog. Chop it up if you have to.

In an IBD dog, I would use the SEBP daily as a sort of preventative for
irritation and inflammation. Just mix a bit in with her meals, sprinkle the
meat with it, or let her drink some low sodium/low fat broth with it whisked
in.

I'd try to go to three meals a day, there's less load on the digestive
system that way. Or, two smaller meals, with a couple of 'snacks'
interspersed throughout the day and evening. With feeding limited/no bone,
her stools will probably stay soft, np.

As for the digestive enzymes, they are fed with the meal. The probiotics are
given in between. I'd start out with a tiny amount and use a diet log - jot
down what she ate when, what supps you used and what the seeming result to
her comfort and poops were afterward. Its not absolutely important, but
keeping a log can help to keep you from falling into 'superstitious' feeding
of foods and supps that 'should help', but don't really. It can also help
you track proteins she does well on, and when flares occur with possible
triggers, like stress events and foods identified.

I would feed only well tolerated foods and supps a few days before a show.
What do you use for bait in the ring? I'd recommend you use chopped bits of
well tolerated raw, with SEBP. Show days, I'd feed her the bait instead of
regular mealtimes, and intersperse small feedings in between ring time and
after judging is over. Try to brainstorm ways to reduce her stress on show
days. Using lavender aromatherapy scents in the house, vehicle and on your
clothing can be calming. Also, D.A.P. Comfort Zone in a plug in diffuser for
the house and spray for vehicle and bandanna or doggie sweater for show days
or walks can be very stress reducing. Its a synthetic pheromone that mimics
the pheromone produced by nursing female dogs.
*http://tinyurl.com/2t5tko*
*http://tinyurl.com/2psfrc*

I suggested whole prey, like mice, hamsters, sardines and quail, even small
rabbit, as these are prey that a small dog could conceivably catch on their
own that provides meat, bone and organs all wrapped up in a perfect bundle.

HTH
TC
Giselle

On Dec 14, 2007 8:03 AM, Cathy <batcathy@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> Hi Giselle- thanks for the links. I know what SE is but what is SEBP? I
> am beginning to think IBD too...as she does well than bam it's back. I have
> been feeding just the chicken/turkey breast without skin and a bit a
> mackerel on occasion last 3 weeks....and I have always fed her 2 small meals
> as that is her pattern. She had about a tablespoon of beef heart 3 days ago
> and wanted more.....yesterday she refused the breast as the rest were
> getting leg combos so I gave her a skinless leg and she was in heaven...she
> left some bone then had breast meat last night. So far in the last month her
> stool has firmed but soft and only once did I have to use the se.
> How often should I give the probotics? Is this something she should have
> daily or only as needed? I am not sure what vet meant by checking further
> (answering machines are frustrating)......how do they test for IBD ?
> Thanks again-
> Cathy
>
> C Richmond
> Battle Creek, MI
> www.lesmarcresteds.com
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

9b. Re: Dinky update
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:40 am ((PST))

Hi Cathy,

I can't add anything to Giselle's excellent advice, but just wondering
whether you ever did get some good quality digestive enzymes that would
assist in digestion of meat and fat????

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Cathy Richmond" <batcathy@sbcglobal.net>

I am giving her the digestive enzymes
daily but bifidophilus only when she had the runs...should i use it
daily also? I just dont know where to go next. Thanks-

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

10a. Re: pregant or nursing dogs
Posted by: "merril Woolf" merril@kentfieldwhippets.com whippetsrus2002
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:27 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jawstrength101" <jawstrength101@...> wrote:
>
> +++Mod note: pls sign emails +++++++
>
> will the raw diet effect pregant or nursing dogs because i have one of
> each???
>

Only in a positive way.

Merril

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________

10b. Re: pregant or nursing dogs
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:23 am ((PST))

Feeding a bitch who is in whelp or nursing raw is the BEST nutrition
they can get.

Feeding while in whelp (pregnant):

Do not overfeed calcium. Too much dietary calcium, over time, can
cause the parathyroid gland to shut down. Which means serum calcium
levels then go out of whack and affect muscle contractibility (serum
calcium helps cause muscle contractions). Bottom line...uterine
inertia. So don't overdo the calcium thinking that you're helping.
After whelping, low serum calcium levels can cause eclampsia (as can
dehyrdration) so make sure she's drinking....even if you have to bait
her water with chicken broth or something.

My first litter is due 1/11/08. Satinka has been raw fed since she
was 4 1/2 mos old and hasn't received any vaccines since then. I
tend to feed a lot of meaty meals anyway, and have to remember to thaw
something a couple times a week that has edible bone in it. So,
basically, I'm not concerned that she's getting too much calcium.
And, having watched puppies develop after moving in here, I'm pretty
confident that I'm not feeding too little.

That's one of the advantages of preymodel feeding, you control what
goes into your dog. Not some company.

On Dec 13, 2007 11:09 AM, jawstrength101 <jawstrength101@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> will the raw diet effect pregant or nursing dogs because i have one of
> each???
>

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Send more trespassers, the last ones were delicious

Messages in this topic (9)
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________________________________________________________________________

11a. Anyone from Alabama?
Posted by: "Debbie" alabamdeb2@yahoo.com alabamdeb2
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:36 am ((PST))

Hello group,
I've been *lurking* here for a while now, and thought I'd say hi.
Thanks for the wealth of information you've provided, it's been very
reassuring during my transition to RAW.

Deb

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

11b. Re: Anyone from Alabama?
Posted by: "donna" heartathome@att.net jubileeberry
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:42 am ((PST))

Deb
I am.. near huntsville :)
donna

>Hello group,
>I've been *lurking* here for a while now, and thought I'd say hi.
>Thanks for the wealth of information you've provided, it's been very
>reassuring during my transition to RAW.
>
>Deb
>
>

--
Namaste,
donna
)O(
Uppity Women Unite

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

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[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12375

There are 24 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Boo's $2500 surgery for stones
From: Jai
1b. Re: Boo's $2500 surgery for stones
From: cypressbunny
1c. Re: Boo's $2500 surgery for stones
From: Jai

2a. Dinky update
From: Cathy Richmond
2b. Re: Dinky update
From: recyclerat@aol.com
2c. Re: Dinky update
From: Giselle
2d. Re: Dinky update
From: Cathy
2e. Re: Dinky update
From: Cathy

3.1. Re: fish oil
From: ginny wilken

4a. Re: Re-freezing
From: Sai Simonson
4b. Re: Re-freezing
From: Sandee Lee

5a. Re: behavior, raw or not
From: Sai Simonson
5b. Re: behavior, raw or not
From: Giselle

6a. Re: Goat Meat Crisis resolved!
From: John and Jeni Blackmon

7a. Re: New & I did it!
From: Karen Ditton

8a. Re: 2nd type of 'Agression"
From: Karen Ditton
8b. Re: 2nd type of 'Agression"
From: Cathy

9. How long is "too long"
From: Michelle R

10a. Re: I have Cresteds too!
From: Michelle R

11a. Re: meaty meat meals
From: marge
11b. Re: meaty meat meals
From: katkellm

12a. Feeding too much causing vomiting?
From: adkjoe17
12b. Re: Feeding too much causing vomiting?
From: Chia

13a. Re: New raw feeder with concerns about cleanliness
From: blue eyed

Messages
________________________________________________________________________

1a. Re: Boo's $2500 surgery for stones
Posted by: "Jai" jredwing@windstream.net onesupercat
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:48 pm ((PST))

Thanks for your suggestions and information. I can use all I can get on
both fronts. He is such a love dog, just wants to get in my pocket, at
60#'s. LOL I raised him and his 3 siblings from 3 1/2 weeks when their Mom
got milk fever trying to feed 11. She was barely over a year old too, my
neighbors dog.
Thanks again,
Jai...>^.^<...

Subject: Re: [rawfeeding] Boo's $2500 surgery for stones

> Jai,
>
> Gosh, sounds awful. Glad he survived this and is doing ok now!
>
> It is my understanding that the stones form when the urine is concentrated

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

1b. Re: Boo's $2500 surgery for stones
Posted by: "cypressbunny" cypressbunny@yahoo.com cypressbunny
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:53 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Jai" <jredwing@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for your suggestions and information.

*** I agree with Sandee. Low protein is not the answer. Controlling
purines is a help. Salting the water, or offering diluted milk or broth
or anything that will encourage him to drink more might help. Vets
recommend various things to try to control urates in dals, but bottom
line, their efforts don't have a very high success rate. This is a
metabolic disorder that owners of susceptible dals just have to manage
as best they can.

*** Oh, I just noticed that I wrote both posts Sandee gave you, so I
guess we already know that I agree with her!

--Carrie

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

1c. Re: Boo's $2500 surgery for stones
Posted by: "Jai" jredwing@windstream.net onesupercat
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:13 pm ((PST))

Thanks Carrie, I appreciate this post and the others also.
I need all the info I can find.
Jai...>^.^<...'

From: "cypressbunny" <cypressbunny@yahoo.com>
> *** I agree with Sandee. Low protein is not the answer. Controlling
> purines is a help. Salting the water, or offering diluted milk or broth

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

2a. Dinky update
Posted by: "Cathy Richmond" batcathy@sbcglobal.net batcathy2002
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:48 pm ((PST))

When i got home tonight a message from vet- tests both came back normal
for EPI & Pancreitis. He said hes off on vacation but we can pursue it
more when he gets back. So now i am stumped.....any ideas?
She is doing much better on the meat,no fat/skin and limited bone & she
actually feels heavier to me. I am giving her the digestive enzymes
daily but bifidophilus only when she had the runs...should i use it
daily also? I just dont know where to go next. Thanks-
Cathy

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

2b. Re: Dinky update
Posted by: "recyclerat@aol.com" recyclerat@aol.com syrusmommy
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:02 pm ((PST))

Cathy..i've been horrible a/b keeping up with messages, so i really dont
have a clue whats going on with your Dinky...but if its the trots going
on...have you tried Giselle's remedy?? of the fasting for 12 to 24 hours and giving
the Slipper Elm supp. every few hours while you fast her/him? my dog had
MAJOR issues..blowing/spraying/spewing liquid poop like a pressure washer out
of his butt. i did as Giselle instructed and it saved the day --

.heather.

When i got home tonight a message from vet- tests both came back normal
for EPI & Pancreitis. He said hes off on vacation but we can pursue it
more when he gets back. So now i am stumped.....more w
She is doing much better on the meat,no fat/skin and limited bone & she
actually feels heavier to me. I am giving her the digestive enzymes
daily but bifidophilus only when she had the runs...should i use it
daily also? I just dont know where to go next. Thanks-
Cathy

**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

2c. Re: Dinky update
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:28 pm ((PST))

Hi, Cathy!
If the vet can rule out EPI and pancreatitis, then its more
than likely IBD/IBS, imo.

Aside from feeding small frequent meals, and trimming fat and skin to bowel
tolerance, tweaking the diet daily to manage how much bone/meat/organ she
does best on, weeding out as many stressors in her daily life as possible
and giving the SEBP on a semi-regular basis to reduce irritation and
inflammation, I don't know of a permanent 'cure' or medication for the
problem.

I've used probiotics and digestive enzymes in small doses to pretty good
effect.

You want to use products that have digestive enzymes that break down meat
and fat;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digestive_enzyme
Probiotics may help;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probiotic

I'd suggest that you change brands periodically also.

Have you thought about feeding whole prey?

http://www.rodentpro.com/products.asp
http://www.prey4pets.com/servlet/StoreFront

HTH
TC
Giselle

On Dec 13, 2007 8:47 PM, Cathy Richmond <batcathy@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> When I got home tonight a message from vet- tests both came back normal
> for EPI & Pancreatitis. He said hes off on vacation but we can pursue it
> more when he gets back. So now i am stumped.....any ideas?
> She is doing much better on the meat, no fat/skin and limited bone & she
> actually feels heavier to me. I am giving her the digestive enzymes
> daily but bifidophilus only when she had the runs...should I use it
> daily also? I just don't know where to go next. Thanks-
> Cathy
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________

2d. Re: Dinky update
Posted by: "Cathy" batcathy@sbcglobal.net batcathy2002
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:25 am ((PST))

Thanks Heather- Dink will go fine for a few weeks & relapse into stomach pain- hunch down, cry, refuse food & than have runs....about every 8-10 weeks so a few people suggested she be checked for epi & panc. as this is reaccuring event. Yes I have used the SE and it helps. She does a self fast too. I was worried as my vet was not concerned and would just med her...so we went elsewhere. Now I am back to square one!

Cathy

C Richmond
Lesmar's CC
Battle Creek, Mi.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
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2e. Re: Dinky update
Posted by: "Cathy" batcathy@sbcglobal.net batcathy2002
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:29 am ((PST))

Hi Giselle- thanks for the links. I know what SE is but what is SEBP? I am beginning to think IBD too...as she does well than bam it's back. I have been feeding just the chicken/turkey breast without skin and a bit a mackeral on occassion last 3 weeks....and i have always fed her 2 small meals as that is her pattern. She had about a tablespoon of beef heart 3 days ago and wanted more.....yesterday she refused the breast as the rest were getting leg combos so i gave her a skinless leg and she was in heaven...she left some bone than had breast meat last night. So far in the last month her stool has firmed but soft and only once did i have to use the se.
How often should i give the probotics? Is this something she should have daily or only as needed? I am not sure what vet meant by checking further (answer macines are frustrating)......how do they test for IBD ?
Thanks again-
Cathy

C Richmond
Battle Creek, MI

www.lesmarcresteds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (7)
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________________________________________________________________________

3.1. Re: fish oil
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:53 pm ((PST))

On Dec 13, 2007, at 2:26 PM, spricketysprock wrote:

> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Laura Atkinson" <llatkinson@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> Jess,
>>
>> This screams "get a thyroid test" to me. Make sure it's a full
>> panel.
>
> haha Oh boy, not that again. I brought my dog in for $300 worth of
> blood tests; everything came out beautifully. Unfortunately I don't
> think it was the "full panel" you all recommend... even though I
> specified it. grr. He'll have to wait another few months for me to
> cough up the dough... (he is also approaching 11 yrs).

Understood, but.... A proper diagnosis of hypothyroid can help him
tremendously. Everything in the body, healing response, metabolism,
etc, is tied to thyroid levels. And the common insults dogs suffer do
predispose to development of thyroid issues. If not now, then when,
for him? You can get the test done through Jean Dodds/Antech for less
than $100; I haven't checked lately. Please don't delay any longer
than you need to, as it could make a big difference in his quality of
life.

ginny and Tomo, both hypo

All stunts performed without a net!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (91)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

4a. Re: Re-freezing
Posted by: "Sai Simonson" saiczarina@comcast.net keikokat
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:02 pm ((PST))

I take it refreezing thawed stuff does not destroy the value of the
meat/bones?

Sai (who got 20 lbs of frozen turkey necks and giblets ....carefully
thawing them in the house where the dogs are not)

Re: Thawed out deer bones on porch
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:54 pm (PST)
"Susanne MacLeod" <suzmacleod@...> wrote:
>
it was
> thawing, but tonight it should freeze back up again....the meat won't
> go bad will it?
*****
Probably not in your lifetime.
At least not so your dogs would notice.
Chris O
--

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________

4b. Re: Re-freezing
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:24 pm ((PST))

No problem thawing and refreezing. Turkey necks can be peeled apart when
still quite frozen.

The challenge in feeding turkey necks comes when you have to purchase a
bunch of meat to offset the bone content.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Sai Simonson" <saiczarina@comcast.net>

> I take it refreezing thawed stuff does not destroy the value of the
> meat/bones?
>
> Sai (who got 20 lbs of frozen turkey necks and giblets ....carefully
> thawing them in the house where the dogs are not)

Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

5a. Re: behavior, raw or not
Posted by: "Sai Simonson" saiczarina@comcast.net keikokat
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:12 pm ((PST))

Yes, Giselle,
We were on the street where we live and this particular dog has been
annoying us from the fenced yard since the dogs came. Perhaps the
protectiveness stems more from Lexi feeling really good on the all raw
diet. I have not seen him act this way before, but then maybe he did
not feel all that challenged in the past? Hard to tell but Lexi does
feel really good!!! A neighborhood cat was in the dogs' yard earlier
today. Lexi went straightaway to greet the cat wagging his tail
furiously. I had to hold Tasha as she is a chaser. Bootsie and Lexi
had a nice interaction, then Tasha charged up and the cat swore and
hissed enough to put Tasha in her place. Tasha will only go after
something that runs away.

Sai

===========================================

Also, was this on, or very close to, your 'home territory', where you and
your dogs all walk frequently?

Its not about the raw, its about innate protectiveness and canine ability
and perceptiveness. I think it was about the nature and the situation of the
threat, not that your dogs are now raw fed.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey
--
*~~ SaiCzarina*

Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________

5b. Re: behavior, raw or not
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:45 pm ((PST))

There ya go...... ^_^

Giselle

On Dec 13, 2007 9:04 PM, Sai Simonson <saiczarina@comcast.net> wrote:

> Yes, Giselle,
> We were on the street where we live and ~~~~this particular dog has been
> annoying us from the fenced yard since the dogs came.~~~~
>

> Perhaps the
> protectiveness stems more from Lexi feeling really good on the all raw
> diet. I have not seen him act this way before, but then maybe he did
> not feel all that challenged in the past? Hard to tell but Lexi does
> feel really good!!! A neighborhood cat was in the dogs' yard earlier
> today. Lexi went straightaway to greet the cat wagging his tail
> furiously. <snip>
>
> Sai
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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________________________________________________________________________

6a. Re: Goat Meat Crisis resolved!
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:12 pm ((PST))

Hey, no need to feel silly, I gutted my first chicken this year, a deer and even well, we won't go there and boy was that stuff ripe! So good to hear it is now going great. And everything is better when it's marinated:)
Jeni

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (10)
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________________________________________________________________________

7a. Re: New & I did it!
Posted by: "Karen Ditton" karenditton@urassociation.com karenditton
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:58 pm ((PST))

Marge wrote:

>I finally took the plunge today and fed my
>two mini poodles (ages 8 and 10) a chicken back. I only split one
>between the two. Now I am terrified at what will happen. I am worried
>I should have removed the skin..that they will get sick, etc.

Good for you Marge! I'm glad that I'm not the only one that felt so
unnerved!

I can tell you my two are doing great! Today was our third day. The weight
between my two dogs works out just right for a smaller whole chicken each
day. So that's what we're feeding for now. So far we haven't had any soft
stools at all! The really nice thing is my older guy who always has picked
at his food seems really pleased and eats enthusiastically! I swear I could
give him twice as much and he'd eat it all. I won't because I'm trying not
to push his system too fast, but it's nice that he WANTS to eat!

I can tell you it's already less scary by the third day. I'm already
thinking ahead to variety and things like that! :-)

Karen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

8a. Re: 2nd type of 'Agression"
Posted by: "Karen Ditton" karenditton@urassociation.com karenditton
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:59 pm ((PST))

I must say that I've definitely experienced an increase in aggression and
it's only our third day!!!

Tonight as we were driving home I spotted a deer right at the edge of the
road and said "deer" to alert my husband. He saw it and slowed as we passed
it. I then said "You missed! That was a lot of food!!!"

Anyone who knows me would know that I'm not usually the sort to think of a
deer as anything other than a cute little Bambi, so I can definitely say
that was an increase in aggression! ;-)

But seriously, I have been thinking a lot about how I will be able to
provide a good variety!

Karen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________

8b. Re: 2nd type of 'Agression"
Posted by: "Cathy" batcathy@sbcglobal.net batcathy2002
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:07 am ((PST))

LOL- sounds like me. Now when they come into the yard to snope around I wish they were in the freezer!
Cathy

C Richmond
Battle Creek, MI

www.lesmarcresteds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (12)
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________________________________________________________________________

9. How long is "too long"
Posted by: "Michelle R" crested_dog8@yahoo.com crested_dog8
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:37 pm ((PST))

Been seeing lots of stuff about "marinating" meat outside. About folks leaving meat outside on the porch and having it freeze and thaw with the weather. I have 2 deer legs....most meat is gone by now, but the dogs still chomp and drag them around like prizes when they are out. Legs have been out for 2 and 3 days. I know they can be out waaaaay longer and still be ok for dogs than people, I am just wondering how long is "too long"...how do you know? Should I just chuck them when they seem to lose interest and not before? What if they keep at them for weeks? Whats the consensus on this from you long time folks?

Michelle Radcliff
Mengshi Chinese Cresteds
http://www.geocities.com/crested_dog8/mengshihome.html

____________________________________________________________________________________
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10a. Re: I have Cresteds too!
Posted by: "Michelle R" crested_dog8@yahoo.com crested_dog8
Date: Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:38 pm ((PST))

Sorry, that was to have gone privately..sorry listers to have bothered anyone with my ramblings!

Michelle Radcliff
Mengshi Chinese Cresteds
http://www.geocities.com/crested_dog8/mengshihome.html

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11a. Re: meaty meat meals
Posted by: "marge" marge_moriarty17551@yahoo.com marge_moriarty17551
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:53 am ((PST))

"Jamie is right.. BUT.. remember that only a very small portion of the
overall
diet needs to be edible bone. And pork bones are entirely edible for
all but
the very tiniest dogs".
***********************************************************************

Since I am only on my second day of the switch to RMB I do not expect
to get all my answers at once..However, I am a little confused. I want
to be sure I am on the right track. I was going to keep the boys (mini
poodles) on chicken backs and wings or thighs for a couple of weeks
initially. Is this going to be too much bone for them? I see some say
you don't need bone every day. Should I be using boneless chicken
breast or ground chicken? Thanks in advance!

Marge Moriarty
Pennsylvania

Messages in this topic (6)
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11b. Re: meaty meat meals
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:56 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "marge" <marge_moriarty17551@...>
wrote:
I was going to keep the boys (mini
> poodles) on chicken backs and wings or thighs for a couple of weeks
> initially. Is this going to be too much bone for them?

Hi Marge,
If your dogs experience no loose stools, not to be confused with
diarrhea where you think bacteria and illness, just the kind of stools
that are incurred by some dogs with the body adjusting to digesting
some new proteins, a couple of weeks is probably longer than you need
to stick with one protein. After the first week, i would introduce a
new meat. Chicken for a week is not too much bone for a new dog.
Forever, its too much bone, but balance is achieved over time and the
what you should do now is not necessarily the what you should/will do
forever. Backs and wings are the boniest of the pieces of chicken, so
my recommendation would be to use more breasts, or thighs, or
drumsticks.

> I see some say
> you don't need bone every day. Should I be using boneless chicken
> breast or ground chicken?

In the long haul of raw feeding you don't need to feed bone everyday
or with every meal. 10% of the diet just ain't a lot of bone, but in
the first few weeks of raw feeding you can use the extra bone since
bone firms up stools. Again, the what you should do now in the
introduction phase is a little different than the forever of raw
feeding. If your dogs seem to get constipated, you can
feed a little boneless chicken because meat will loosen things up. I
wouldn't use ground meat. Let your dogs' teeth do the grinding. HTH,
KathyM

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12a. Feeding too much causing vomiting?
Posted by: "adkjoe17" j2dope17@yahoo.com adkjoe17
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:07 am ((PST))

Is it possible that If i feed to much at one sitting, 2-3 hours later
they could vomit up a lot of there meal still pretty whole and un-
digested? I gave Sonya a half of a whole chicken which was probably
almost 2 pounds. She is a 12 week old siberian. I meant to let her
go to town on it for a bit then take it away for feeding later but I
forgot and she ate the whole thing. A couple hours later, about 3
hours actually she puked a lot of it up still whole. She has never
puked from eating chicken or raw before. Could it be she ate to much
at one sitting?? thanks!

Joe

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12b. Re: Feeding too much causing vomiting?
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:15 am ((PST))

##### no worries...she could have even gobbled it too fast...my boy did
that once a long time ago and luckily, hr re-ate it, it was pretty much
undigested just mashed up looking. Lovely the things we endure sometimes..
;-))

Chia & Ricco
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13a. Re: New raw feeder with concerns about cleanliness
Posted by: "blue eyed" eyed_blue@yahoo.co.uk eyed_blue
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:43 am ((PST))

I have to admit that I think there sometimes is a need to 'clean them up' with baby wipes when they are raw fed as opposed to kibble, simply because my dog would go about stinking of meat and with fat from parts of lamb etc still on his pads, jump on sofa, rub his dirty face all over me, sofa, floor etc in order to clean himself up.

I think raw meat is brilliant for dogs and I am by no means a clean freak, but really I want him to eat like a dog, but his raw meat/offal etc are not necessarilly whats good for me (when the remains are spread all over the house! ie fatty paw prints).
Natalie

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