Feed Pets Raw Food: [rawfeeding] Digest Number 12376

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Feeding too much causing vomiting?
From: Andrea

2a. Re: How long is "too long"
From: Andrea
2b. Re: How long is "too long"
From: carnesbill
2c. Re: How long is "too long"
From: katkellm

3a. Re: meaty meat meals
From: cynthiashankman
3b. Re: meaty meat meals
From: costrowski75

4a. A question about stool
From: blue eyed

5a. Re: Boo's $2500 surgery for stones
From: Jacinta Loo

6a. Allergies and Raw
From: blue eyed

7a. Re: chicken liver
From: metra_co

8a. How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
From: markmdevlin
8b. Re: How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
From: Andrea
8c. Re: How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
From: costrowski75
8d. Re: How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
From: Casey Post
8e. Re: How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
From: katkellm
8f. Re: How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
From: Scott Baker
8g. Re: How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
From: MORGAN LEWIS
8h. Re: How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
From: Chia
8i. Re: How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
From: Giselle

9a. Re: Dinky update
From: Giselle
9b. Re: Dinky update
From: Sandee Lee

10a. Re: pregant or nursing dogs
From: merril Woolf
10b. Re: pregant or nursing dogs
From: Laura Atkinson

11a. Anyone from Alabama?
From: Debbie
11b. Re: Anyone from Alabama?
From: donna

Messages
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1a. Re: Feeding too much causing vomiting?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:55 am ((PST))

> Is it possible that If i feed to much at one sitting, 2-3 hours later
> they could vomit up a lot of there meal still pretty whole and un-
> digested?

Yup, sounds like your girl ate more than she was used to and probably
ate it too quickly or didn't chew it much at all. If she was willing
to re-eat it I'd say she just ate too large too fast. If she wasn't
into re-eating it she probably just ate too much.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (3)
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2a. Re: How long is "too long"
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:59 am ((PST))

My first concern would be the dogs chewing on the leg bones of the
deer. If they are working on the sinew and such still attached to the
bones you can leave them out until they loose interest. If, however,
they are gnawing on the bones I would toss them out right now. In
answer to "how long is too long," as long as the dog has interest in it
it's ok IMO.

Andrea

-- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Michelle R <crested_dog8@...> wrote:

> I have 2 deer legs....most meat is gone by now, but the dogs still
> chomp and drag them around like prizes when they are out. Legs have
> been out for 2 and 3 days.

Messages in this topic (4)
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2b. Re: How long is "too long"
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:23 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Michelle R <crested_dog8@...>
wrote:
>
> I know they can be out waaaaay longer and still be ok for
> dogs than people, I am just wondering how long is "too long"...
> how do you know?

There is no "too long". Don't worry about them.

> Should I just chuck them when they seem to lose interest and
> not before?

You can but they will probably be gone before the dogs loose
interest.

> What if they keep at them for weeks? Whats the consensus on
> this from you long time folks?

Weeks is fine if they last that long. Months is ok.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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2c. Re: How long is "too long"
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:40 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Michelle R <crested_dog8@...> wrote:
I have 2 deer legs....most meat is gone by now, but the dogs still
chomp and drag them around like prizes when they are out.

Hi Michelle,
If they are stripped of meat, i think you should toss them. Not
because they are too old, but because they have, because of the size
of your dogs, become wreck bones-as in crack teeth. I have big dogs
who crunch right through deer legs without much thought, and so for
them i consider the bone edible. Anytime the meat is gone and the dog
needs to really work at the bone, imo, they have become inedible for
that particular dog. If you are sure that they aren't chewing on them
and just using them as fetch, tug of war, play things, i guess they
would be ok forever. KathyM

Messages in this topic (4)
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3a. Re: meaty meat meals
Posted by: "cynthiashankman" ShankMa4@aol.com cynthiashankman
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:23 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "katkellm" <katkellm@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "marge" <marge_moriarty17551@>
> wrote:
> I was going to keep the boys (mini
> > poodles) on chicken backs and wings or thighs for a couple of
weeks
> > initially. Is this going to be too much bone for them?

~**~ I feel your confusion Marge. and yes, IMO that is too much
bone. I'm glad you are clearing this up right at the beginning of
your raw adventure. When I started, back 4 months ago, (I still
consider myself new at this) it took some trial and error and lots of
reading for me to realize that only 10% of the diet is edible bone
and that many many meals do not include bone. It's confusing because
of "raw meaty bones" name and using suggested chicken (with bone) in
the first week. Just wanted to add my support and glad to see you
are getting clarification early on from Kathy below and others that
will probably follow.

Cindi
>
> Hi Marge,
> If your dogs experience no loose stools, not to be confused with
> diarrhea where you think bacteria and illness, just the kind of
stools
> that are incurred by some dogs with the body adjusting to digesting
> some new proteins, a couple of weeks is probably longer than you
need
> to stick with one protein. After the first week, i would introduce
a
> new meat. Chicken for a week is not too much bone for a new dog.
> Forever, its too much bone, but balance is achieved over time and
the
> what you should do now is not necessarily the what you should/will
do
> forever. Backs and wings are the boniest of the pieces of chicken,
so
> my recommendation would be to use more breasts, or thighs, or
> drumsticks.
>
> > I see some say
> > you don't need bone every day. Should I be using boneless
chicken
> > breast or ground chicken?
>
> In the long haul of raw feeding you don't need to feed bone everyday
> or with every meal. 10% of the diet just ain't a lot of bone, but
in
> the first few weeks of raw feeding you can use the extra bone since
> bone firms up stools. Again, the what you should do now in the
> introduction phase is a little different than the forever of raw
> feeding. If your dogs seem to get constipated, you can
> feed a little boneless chicken because meat will loosen things up.
I
> wouldn't use ground meat. Let your dogs' teeth do the grinding.
HTH,
> KathyM
>

Messages in this topic (8)
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3b. Re: meaty meat meals
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:42 am ((PST))

"marge" <marge_moriarty17551@...> wrote:
I am a little confused.
*****
LOL If you are only a little confused, you've not done your share of
reading.

I want
> to be sure I am on the right track.
*****
Ditching kibble and feeding raw puts you on the right track,
automatically. However, you wanna make sure you're getting off at
the right stop.

I was going to keep the boys (mini
> poodles) on chicken backs and wings or thighs for a couple of weeks
> initially.
*****
Feeding wings and backs without supporting meatymeat is getting off
the train at the wrong station. Thighs are much better, though all
of these parts are plenty bony. I think relying solely on bony parts
for two weeks is about a week too long unless you are dealing with
specific and known health issues. Otherwise, you're just postponing
having to introduce meatymeat.

Meat should run the train, rule the roost, lead the parade, get top
billing, be the big kahuna--the top banana. So don't stay away from
it too long.

Is this going to be too much bone for them?
*****
Spread over a period of time, nope. Fed exclusively, yes from a
dietary perspective and probably, from the perspective of comfortable
stools.

I see some say
> you don't need bone every day.
*****
Considering nutritional needs, your dogs don't need bone every day,
not even every other day. Depending on how much edible bone you feed
in any given meal, you may not need to include bone for three or four
days.

From a "stool management" perspective though, you may find your dogs
regulate themselves better/have more socially acceptable stools if
fed some small amount of bone every day. Some people who feed twice
a day feed a bone-in meal and a boneless meal. Some people whose
dogs have very precarious digestive systems find a bit of bone every
meal is what saves the day.

A dog without digestive issues (other than the preliminary "too much
too soon" blues) does not require much dietary bone. That means 10%-
15% edible bone, which--translated into real life--means a dog that
eats, say, 35 ounces a WEEK would need but four or five ounces of
edible bone a WEEK. Not much at all!

Should I be using boneless chicken
> breast or ground chicken?
*****
Your minis come equipped with their own grinders. They're called
teeth and you can't do better than that. Add whole boneless chicken
to those bony meals, feed body parts that come naturally with more
meat/less bone (rib-in breasts are good), include boneless meals in
the menu plan.

And while you're relying on chicken parts, research other options.
For small dogs, rabbit and quail are good "different but still easy
bones" choices, as are lamb breasts, pork riblets and small whole
fish. Your boneless meat choices are much more varied, since any
meat without bone counts. The only deciders would be your budget and
your dogs' specific likes and dislikes.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (8)
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4a. A question about stool
Posted by: "blue eyed" eyed_blue@yahoo.co.uk eyed_blue
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:23 am ((PST))

Yes this is normal and actually very good as it means that your dog is now using the food provided to get good nourishment and all that is left to poo out is waste, much less waste than pet food as there are no 'fillers' in fresh raw meaty bones.

My dog will poo as many times as he has had meals but all the poo is much smaller and firmer. You will also start to see that your dog has a 'transit time' so you can forward plan when he will need out which is handy if you are travelling, nights out etc. For my dog (although I would imagine all dogs are different and some will depend whats been eaten) its eight hours, so if I feed him I know that once he is finished eating he will need out to poo in eight hours time from then.

I had to adjust his feeding times when I switched him to raw as he was needing out at awkward times so can be handy to keep a little food diary for them in the beginning but no need to obsess over tiny details just times and what was fed and rough amount so that if he gets the runs/constipated you can check and see why/too much of a food, new food, extra bone etc can also help you to see when he will need out etc. Im not saying you need to keep this for much of a length of time just handy in the begining.

Hope this helps
Natalie

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Messages in this topic (4)
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5a. Re: Boo's $2500 surgery for stones
Posted by: "Jacinta Loo" jacintaloo@gmail.com junglemonkey718
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:23 am ((PST))

Hi Jai, a great way I found to get my girl to drink more water when I
want her to be more hydrated is to squirt a pump of salmon body oil
in a bowl of water. Or i squeeze a couple of drops of bloody liver
juice or heart or whatever into the water. She slurps it down no
problem.

HTH!

Jacinta
On Dec 13, 2007, at 8:31 PM, Sandee Lee wrote:

> Jai,
>
> Gosh, sounds awful. Glad he survived this and is doing ok now!
>
> It is my understanding that the stones form when the urine is
> concentrated
> which happens when a dog is dehydrated. A raw diet is high in
> moisture so
> dogs generally drink less...not sure how to make them drink more. I
> wonder
> if chicken broth would help?

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Messages in this topic (8)
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6a. Allergies and Raw
Posted by: "blue eyed" eyed_blue@yahoo.co.uk eyed_blue
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:47 am ((PST))

<I was feeding her NV Venison raw medallions, but had to stop with that
because she is allergic to flax and eggs which is in that food. She is
also allergic to poultry, soy, barley, corn and oats>

Most of these ingredients (other than poultry) are not needed by your dog and are prime suspects in most allergy cases, from what I gather. However lots of people say that their dog cannot tolerate cooked foods well (this includes my dog) yet can eat the same foods raw without a problem, when they tested did they test poultry or certain poultry? ie a mix of or only turkey and chicken?

If it was me I would start with a prey model style diet, cutting out all grains and you can always start with Lamb? This has nice soft edible bones (to keep teeth clean and stools firm) and you can buy the flank cheap enough to start with, should also keep a yorkie working away a little while! You might want to remove some of the fat to start with just until she is doing ok with it. I wouldnt introduce anything else for a week at least as she is so sensitive. You can always add some lean lamb mince if the stools are too firm with this.

Hope this helps,

Natalie

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Messages in this topic (7)
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7a. Re: chicken liver
Posted by: "metra_co" metraco@hotmail.com metra_co
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:47 am ((PST))

The only way I was able to get Rusty to eat any liver was to dice it
and mix it in ground green tripe. That stuff is so stinky (and dogs
looove it sooo much) that it gets swallowed in a couple gulps. Now
Rusty will actually eat chunks of frozen beef liver plain, but other
organs still need to be mixed with tripe.

Metra

:
>
> LOL...I tried to introduce a tiny itty bitty single diced piece of
liver, in the middle of ground beef, just as Chris suggested. I have
also hidden it among a pile of venison, or chicken, or turkey or
whatever...I always find the tiny itty bitty piece of liver sitting
alone. Its become quite a challenge. I>
>
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Messages in this topic (11)
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8a. How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
Posted by: "markmdevlin" markmdevlin@yahoo.com markmdevlin
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:03 am ((PST))

MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS!!!

Hi, We have recently switched to raw food, a few months or so. We have
10 German Shepherds. The problem is hubbie and I disagree on the
measures. I want to feed 3-4LBs per day, and hubbie feels this is way
too much and wants me to feed 2LBs a day. I think this is way to small
an amount. My dogs are good sized/large boned German Shepherds. The
main feeding component of our diet is mostly green tripe, with days of
offal and pork hocks/pigs feet. I do feed pork riblets at times, but
prefer the hocks, as more meat and bone on them. The argument he states
is that raw is more highly digestable than kibble. I understand this,
but i'm just not in agreement with his maths. I'm also useless at maths
so I tend to get blindsided. So I thought I'd ask other peoples
opinions, who are more experienced.
Another problem is we recently purchased an unrelated dog for stud
purposes. Shortly after we purchased him, we noticed very loose bloody
mucous type stools. We changed his diet to a high quality kibble, to no
effect. He was prescribed medication from the vet Metronidazole 250mgs
x 3 every 12 hours for 7 days. Again to no effect, and is currently on
another course. The breeder denies I.B.D. in his lines. I have put him
on a raw diet, with no improvement. Any thoughts greatly appreciated.

Messages in this topic (9)
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8b. Re: How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:30 am ((PST))

How much to feed depends a lot on what looks good on the dog. A good
starting point is about 2% of the ideal adult weight. Assuming a
large GSD would be somewhere around 100lbs, you're looking at 2 lbs a
day. Seems to me that 3-4lbs a day is too much for this size of
dog. If you are feeding 2 lbs a day and see that the dog needs more
you can easily add more food.

> The main feeding component of our diet is mostly green tripe, with
> days of offal and pork hocks/pigs feet. I do feed pork riblets at
> times, but prefer the hocks, as more meat and bone on them.

Though green tripe is a fun treat for dogs and most love it, it isn't
sufficient for the staple of a dog's diet. I'd be more comfortable
if the main component was pork shoulders, sides of goat, or whatever
is convenient for you to get. Keep in mind that you want a good
variety of parts and animals to feed.

> So I thought I'd ask other peoples opinions, who are more
> experienced.

FWIW, my 60lb GSP mix eats the equivalent of around 1 lb of food a
day. My Newf mix puppy eats closer to 3 lbs a day. We don't know
how big he'll end up, but this amount looks good on him.

> I have put him on a raw diet, with no improvement.

Is he eating the same meals as the others? You might want to start
with something easy like chicken for him. Feed him nothing but
chicken for a couple of weeks and see if that helps him get things in
order. Pork feet and hocks can tend to be pretty fatty and make
loose stools.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (9)
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8c. Re: How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:19 am ((PST))

"markmdevlin" <markmdevlin@...> wrote:
The problem is hubbie and I disagree on the
> measures.
*****
Actually, I see other issues (if not actual "problems") as well.

I want to feed 3-4LBs per day, and hubbie feels this is way
> too much and wants me to feed 2LBs a day. I think this is way to
small
> an amount.
*****
Ultimately the scale can only trip you up. Feed amounts that look
good on the dog. Each dog will have different requirements and it
would be overly simplistic to assume that a set dose will work for
all your dogs. Both you and your husband must learn to trust that
your dogs will show you when they need more or less food.

So. Do your dogs look good (however you choose to apply the term) or
are they unthrifty and generally seem below expectation? If they are
really skinny (hips, ribs, spine protrude) or are really porky (no
tuck up, no waist, rolls of fat at the neck and base of tail) feed
more or less as needed; also consider revising the menu.

The amount may be two pounds or four pounds; it may change from
summer to winter, from activity to activity, from dog to dog. The
effective amount is what it is.

The
> main feeding component of our diet is mostly green tripe, with days
of
> offal and pork hocks/pigs feet. I do feed pork riblets at times, but
> prefer the hocks, as more meat and bone on them.
*****
Until you beat green tripe back to a more appropriate place in the
menu, you can't really judge if the amounts you feed are optimal.
Green tripe does not have the credentials to be the star performer.
Meat (on the bone, off the bone: meat) is what you need to feed most
of. "Meat" means fat, skin and connective tissue as well as flesh.

From the looks of it, you are feeding green tripe at the expense of
meat (including heart, unless the offal you offer includes it). You
seem to feeding plenty of fat and bones (pork hocks and riblets are
famously bony and fatty but weak on the flesh). I recommend you
replace at least half the green tripe with meat. Pork, chicken,
turkey, beef, lamb, goat, rabbit, venison, fish. Meat.

The argument he states
> is that raw is more highly digestable than kibble. I understand
this,
> but i'm just not in agreement with his maths.
*****
Both of you: Skip the book learning and learn to read your dogs.
They truly will not lie. They cannot. Numbers can lie, and will.

> Another problem is we recently purchased an unrelated dog for stud
> purposes. Shortly after we purchased him, we noticed very loose
bloody
> mucous type stools. We changed his diet to a high quality kibble,
to no
> effect. He was prescribed medication from the vet Metronidazole
250mgs
> x 3 every 12 hours for 7 days. Again to no effect, and is currently
on
> another course. The breeder denies I.B.D. in his lines.
*****
If you are feeding him what you are feeding your dogs, I doubt you're
doing anything constructive for his digestive system. For him, for
now, lots of green tripe may be a good answer. But certainly ditch
the pork and the fat. Feed lean meat and easy bones in multiple
small meats. Consider skinless, rib-in chicken breast and white
fish. Also consider sprinkling some Slippery Elm powder over his
green tripe to ease his irritated intestines.

A breeder in good conscience can swear up and down there is no IBD in
a dog's pedigree as long as no one has bothered to identify or even
address digestive issues. It could well be there but kennel
blindness will only admit otherwise. I would disregard the breeder's
assurances and feed the guy like he's got IBD.

Meanwhile you can be exploring other potential causes like giardia or
stress. Perhaps it might have been a better idea to breed your
bitches to him in the comfort and security of his own home.

Have you done a full blood panel workup?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (9)
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8d. Re: How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:21 am ((PST))

I was going to reply to this about green tripe not being the ideal base for
a diet, how you'd be better off with large meaty parts, how 3-4 pounds
sounds like too much food, but it would depend on the dog and his activity
level/metabolism, and how the new dog might do better with less green tripe
and bony things (hocks and such are pretty bony) and more meaty RMB's like
chicken or whatever, but...

Andrea got there first and covered it all! <g>

Casey

Messages in this topic (9)
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8e. Re: How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:23 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "markmdevlin" <markmdevlin@...> wrote:
The problem is hubbie and I disagree on the
> measures. I want to feed 3-4LBs per day, and hubbie feels this is way
> too much and wants me to feed 2LBs a day.

I feel like i am betraying the sacred sisterhood of woman, but i have
to agree with your hubby. Your dogs would have to weigh 150lbs for me
to recommend 3lbs of food a day. However, there are exceptions, and
so you need to judge what amount is correct by the appearance of your
dogs. Start feeding at 2lbs a day and watch for weight loss. Adjust
the amount according to the dog's looks, not the math.

I have put him
> on a raw diet, with no improvement. Any thoughts greatly appreciated.

I think that you need to start his raw diet off with a newbie
approach. Tripe and pork hocks probably shouldn't find themselves on
the menu of new to raw food dogs. Feed him 2% of his ideal body
weight a day. Start off with one protein, i would vote for chicken,
and feed only chicken for a week. If he has loose stools, you can
remove the skin and the fat. Tripe can cause loose stools in seasoned
raw fed dogs and pork hocks are too fatty for a new to raw dog.
Operator error has been known to cause lots of grief for newbie dogs.
Good Luck, KathyM

Messages in this topic (9)
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8f. Re: How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
Posted by: "Scott Baker" scottsbaker@gmail.com scottpsbaker
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:23 am ((PST))

Yeah Each dog is different, but my 125lb dog eats maybe 2lbs a day.

On Dec 14, 2007 1:30 PM, Andrea <poketmouse45@yahoo.com> wrote:

> How much to feed depends a lot on what looks good on the dog. A good
> starting point is about 2% of the ideal adult weight. Assuming a
> large GSD would be somewhere around 100lbs, you're looking at 2 lbs a
> day. Seems to me that 3-4lbs a day is too much for this size of
> dog. If you are feeding 2 lbs a day and see that the dog needs more
> you can easily add more food.
>

--
Scott

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Messages in this topic (9)
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8g. Re: How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
Posted by: "MORGAN LEWIS" shadowland22000@yahoo.com shadowland22000
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:27 am ((PST))

well somehow i missed BREED of this dog. morgan

costrowski75 <Chriso75@AOL.COM> wrote: "markmdevlin" <markmdevlin@...> wrote:
The problem is hubbie and I disagree on the
> measures.
*****
Actually, I see other issues (if not actual "problems") as well.

The amount may be two pounds or four pounds; it may change from
summer to winter, from activity to activity, from dog to dog. The
effective amount is what it is.

Meanwhile you can be exploring other potential causes like giardia or
stress. Perhaps it might have been a better idea to breed your
bitches to him in the comfort and security of his own home.

Have you done a full blood panel workup?
Chris O

Morgan and His Angels
Precious, OFA
Princess, CGC, TDI, GSDCA Health Award

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Messages in this topic (9)
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8h. Re: How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:04 am ((PST))

Yeah Each dog is different, but my 125lb dog eats maybe 2lbs a day.

### also, experienced raw fed dogs, who know no different, will self
regulate. (not all, but I can assure you, MANY do)..it's like a
sophisticated, instinctual, natural appetite as nature meant their appetites
to be...

My 50 lb dog will easily eat a 2 -3lb meal and then not eat for the next
two days...

Experience creates the confidence to our 'know thy dog' mantra. It also
creates experience in yourself, with the visual eye check of how your dog
appears and how his rib cage feels when you run your hands over it. It
would be so simple it was just like a bag of crap, give a cup of food, once
per day... but... with natural, real food, varying metabolisms, fitness
levels, and age, one can see why SO many dogs are malnourished on either
having a regulated feeding of kibble, OR, worse still, free feeding of
kibble.

C hia & Ricco

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This is your life

not a phys-ed class.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
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8i. Re: How Much To Feed....Disagreement?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:28 am ((PST))

Hi, Morgan!
There's no relevance for specific breed, except to point
out the approximate size of the dogs the OP is feeding.

If you read the second sentence and the fifth sentence of the original post,
your Q will be answered.

And, there are 10 of them.

As for my .02 cents on the original topic, Chris O already tossed the coins
into the kitty. ; )

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On Dec 14, 2007 1:25 PM, MORGAN LEWIS <shadowland22000@yahoo.com> wrote:

> well somehow i missed BREED of this dog. morgan
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (9)
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9a. Re: Dinky update
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:14 am ((PST))

Hi, Cathy!
IME, IBD/IBS is a 'rule out everything else testable' kinda
diagnosis.

*S*lippery *E*lm *B*ark *P*owder

I would give her as much protein variety with bone and organ as she does
well on. I know, its hard to experiment when it might result in disaster,
but adding a taste of this and a bit of that to a well tolerated protein
works. Liver is important, and so is bone. Gristle, or cartilage, the white
'soft bone' at the ends of most bones, is easily digestible and can entirely
satisfy the need for bone in a tiny dog. Chop it up if you have to.

In an IBD dog, I would use the SEBP daily as a sort of preventative for
irritation and inflammation. Just mix a bit in with her meals, sprinkle the
meat with it, or let her drink some low sodium/low fat broth with it whisked
in.

I'd try to go to three meals a day, there's less load on the digestive
system that way. Or, two smaller meals, with a couple of 'snacks'
interspersed throughout the day and evening. With feeding limited/no bone,
her stools will probably stay soft, np.

As for the digestive enzymes, they are fed with the meal. The probiotics are
given in between. I'd start out with a tiny amount and use a diet log - jot
down what she ate when, what supps you used and what the seeming result to
her comfort and poops were afterward. Its not absolutely important, but
keeping a log can help to keep you from falling into 'superstitious' feeding
of foods and supps that 'should help', but don't really. It can also help
you track proteins she does well on, and when flares occur with possible
triggers, like stress events and foods identified.

I would feed only well tolerated foods and supps a few days before a show.
What do you use for bait in the ring? I'd recommend you use chopped bits of
well tolerated raw, with SEBP. Show days, I'd feed her the bait instead of
regular mealtimes, and intersperse small feedings in between ring time and
after judging is over. Try to brainstorm ways to reduce her stress on show
days. Using lavender aromatherapy scents in the house, vehicle and on your
clothing can be calming. Also, D.A.P. Comfort Zone in a plug in diffuser for
the house and spray for vehicle and bandanna or doggie sweater for show days
or walks can be very stress reducing. Its a synthetic pheromone that mimics
the pheromone produced by nursing female dogs.
*http://tinyurl.com/2t5tko*
*http://tinyurl.com/2psfrc*

I suggested whole prey, like mice, hamsters, sardines and quail, even small
rabbit, as these are prey that a small dog could conceivably catch on their
own that provides meat, bone and organs all wrapped up in a perfect bundle.

HTH
TC
Giselle

On Dec 14, 2007 8:03 AM, Cathy <batcathy@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> Hi Giselle- thanks for the links. I know what SE is but what is SEBP? I
> am beginning to think IBD too...as she does well than bam it's back. I have
> been feeding just the chicken/turkey breast without skin and a bit a
> mackerel on occasion last 3 weeks....and I have always fed her 2 small meals
> as that is her pattern. She had about a tablespoon of beef heart 3 days ago
> and wanted more.....yesterday she refused the breast as the rest were
> getting leg combos so I gave her a skinless leg and she was in heaven...she
> left some bone then had breast meat last night. So far in the last month her
> stool has firmed but soft and only once did I have to use the se.
> How often should I give the probotics? Is this something she should have
> daily or only as needed? I am not sure what vet meant by checking further
> (answering machines are frustrating)......how do they test for IBD ?
> Thanks again-
> Cathy
>
> C Richmond
> Battle Creek, MI
> www.lesmarcresteds.com
>
>

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Messages in this topic (9)
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9b. Re: Dinky update
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:40 am ((PST))

Hi Cathy,

I can't add anything to Giselle's excellent advice, but just wondering
whether you ever did get some good quality digestive enzymes that would
assist in digestion of meat and fat????

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Cathy Richmond" <batcathy@sbcglobal.net>

I am giving her the digestive enzymes
daily but bifidophilus only when she had the runs...should i use it
daily also? I just dont know where to go next. Thanks-

Messages in this topic (9)
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10a. Re: pregant or nursing dogs
Posted by: "merril Woolf" merril@kentfieldwhippets.com whippetsrus2002
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:27 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jawstrength101" <jawstrength101@...> wrote:
>
> +++Mod note: pls sign emails +++++++
>
> will the raw diet effect pregant or nursing dogs because i have one of
> each???
>

Only in a positive way.

Merril

Messages in this topic (9)
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10b. Re: pregant or nursing dogs
Posted by: "Laura Atkinson" llatkinson@gmail.com lauraatkinson2002
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:23 am ((PST))

Feeding a bitch who is in whelp or nursing raw is the BEST nutrition
they can get.

Feeding while in whelp (pregnant):

Do not overfeed calcium. Too much dietary calcium, over time, can
cause the parathyroid gland to shut down. Which means serum calcium
levels then go out of whack and affect muscle contractibility (serum
calcium helps cause muscle contractions). Bottom line...uterine
inertia. So don't overdo the calcium thinking that you're helping.
After whelping, low serum calcium levels can cause eclampsia (as can
dehyrdration) so make sure she's drinking....even if you have to bait
her water with chicken broth or something.

My first litter is due 1/11/08. Satinka has been raw fed since she
was 4 1/2 mos old and hasn't received any vaccines since then. I
tend to feed a lot of meaty meals anyway, and have to remember to thaw
something a couple times a week that has edible bone in it. So,
basically, I'm not concerned that she's getting too much calcium.
And, having watched puppies develop after moving in here, I'm pretty
confident that I'm not feeding too little.

That's one of the advantages of preymodel feeding, you control what
goes into your dog. Not some company.

On Dec 13, 2007 11:09 AM, jawstrength101 <jawstrength101@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> will the raw diet effect pregant or nursing dogs because i have one of
> each???
>

--
Laura A
Kaos Siberians http://www.kaossiberians.com
Send more trespassers, the last ones were delicious

Messages in this topic (9)
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11a. Anyone from Alabama?
Posted by: "Debbie" alabamdeb2@yahoo.com alabamdeb2
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:36 am ((PST))

Hello group,
I've been *lurking* here for a while now, and thought I'd say hi.
Thanks for the wealth of information you've provided, it's been very
reassuring during my transition to RAW.

Deb

Messages in this topic (2)
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11b. Re: Anyone from Alabama?
Posted by: "donna" heartathome@att.net jubileeberry
Date: Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:42 am ((PST))

Deb
I am.. near huntsville :)
donna

>Hello group,
>I've been *lurking* here for a while now, and thought I'd say hi.
>Thanks for the wealth of information you've provided, it's been very
>reassuring during my transition to RAW.
>
>Deb
>
>

--
Namaste,
donna
)O(
Uppity Women Unite

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Messages in this topic (2)
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Feed Pets Raw Food

Friday, December 14, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12376

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