[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12368

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Undigested chicken bones
From: blue eyed
1b. Re: Undigested chicken bones
From: costrowski75

2a. Re: strange habits of my dobes
From: Cathy
2b. strange habits of my dobes
From: blue eyed
2c. Re: strange habits of my dobes
From: carnesbill

3a. Re: 2nd type of 'Agression"
From: steph.sorensen

4a. Re: Breed specific info please : Springer spaniel
From: Penny (Nickles) Parker

5a. Re: Anyone near Portland Oregon?
From: shelleywestre

6a. Re: What to do with pork shoulder
From: Pamela Picard
6b. Re: What to do with pork shoulder
From: johnsonkp200
6c. Re: What to do with pork shoulder
From: Andrea

7. strange habits of dobes
From: famtimes@blazenetme.net

8a. do you feed once or twice a day?
From: johnsonkp200
8b. Re: do you feed once or twice a day?
From: Andrea
8c. Re: do you feed once or twice a day?
From: Scott Baker
8d. Re: do you feed once or twice a day?
From: Chia
8e. Re: do you feed once or twice a day?
From: Giselle
8f. Re: do you feed once or twice a day?
From: jennifer_hell
8g. Re: do you feed once or twice a day?
From: Dave Teetz
8h. Re: do you feed once or twice a day?
From: Tina Berry

9a. Re: Hogmaw - the 'other' white meat?
From: carnesbill

10a. Re: Grinders
From: carnesbill
10b. Re: Grinders
From: costrowski75
10c. Re: Grinders
From: cactususan

11a. Re: not working yet - OT -- Sorry!
From: costrowski75

Messages
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1a. Undigested chicken bones
Posted by: "blue eyed" eyed_blue@yahoo.co.uk eyed_blue
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:48 am ((PST))

All I can say is that this has happened (every now and again) with my dog but has never actually caused a problem other than diahrea once, just his body's way of gtting rid of a bit of bone. I have decided to use the minced chicken carcasses from Landywoods for now but most of his other meals etc are RMB's. Thats not to say I wouldnt feed chicken bones at all in the future.

Natalie

---------------------------------
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Messages in this topic (4)
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1b. Re: Undigested chicken bones
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:28 am ((PST))

"i_calado" <i_calado@...> wrote:
>
But lately I've
> seen several pieces of undigested chicken bones in the shepherd's
> poo. And they look very sharp and splintery! Should I get worried?
*****
Based on what you describe? No. It is not only normal but also
healthy for undigested food to be ejected one way or the other before
it becomes a potentially destructive irritant.

You might be feeding too much bone; you might be feeding bone that's
denser than your shepherd can completely digest; it might just "one of
those things". Keep watch. If the bones continue to appear, review
the menu.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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2a. Re: strange habits of my dobes
Posted by: "Cathy" batcathy@sbcglobal.net batcathy2002
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:48 am ((PST))

as with people they are all different & have their likes / dislikes......key is to find what works for you & yours. i have found if I watch them they will tell me...the only one i worry over is my sicky girl and i jumped through hoops to feed her...until recently...she was under weight & 1 day would be more loss........now that i am not so worried she is eating better ( with a little help from friends) and if not I take it up & give later.
I have found with the liver & heart that if I place it in some hot water for a few minutes they eat it better....and chicken or turkey- i nick so they have a place to start...even long strips dragging seems to get their attention. I don't believe in catering but can be creative!!
Cathy

C Richmond
Lesmar's CC
Battle Creek, Mi.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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2b. strange habits of my dobes
Posted by: "blue eyed" eyed_blue@yahoo.co.uk eyed_blue
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:06 am ((PST))

My dobe eats the liver frozen, think they find it easier to chew that way as its not so 'squidgey' same with kidney and sometimes beef heart. Suits me less smell/mess.

He also likes RMB's to be frozen and chicken minced.

As to not eating certain foods, I have introduced a fast day at the moment and the food he dosnt eat is given the day after the fast, he usually decides he now likes it!

Other than that it will go back in the freezer and they just wont be offered that food for a while, if something goes back in the freezer - nothing else comes out!! Cant be hungry enough.

They have you well trained!! LOL

They all have their little prefrences though. Mine wont take food from other people, is this a dobe thing? He has only taken food ie treat from people a few times and thats only if we know them. The best type of bodyguard, not easily bribed!! LOL

Have you tried mixing minced chicken with tripe mince? May not be ideal as far as chewing bones...least they would be getting variety....

Natalie

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Messages in this topic (4)
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2c. Re: strange habits of my dobes
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:51 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "arabianbluedobe"
<arabianbluedobe@...> wrote:
>
> I have 1 dobe who won't eat chicken or turkey. But she
> loves venison.
> My others love chicken, but look at me like I am crazy when I give
> venison.

Don't worry about what they "like" or don't "like". You decide what
they eat. It's your responsibility, not theirs.

You are doing right by taking away ... BUT ... you should give the
exact same food next meal and continue the process until they eat
it. Even if it takes days. No between meal treats or snacks for
that dog that day. They need to learn that they will eat what is
given or they don't eat. It's their choice.

Be firm. It's your job. Picky eaters are made, not born. Your
dogs are running full speed down the picky path. It will be much
easier to change direction now than later.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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3a. Re: 2nd type of 'Agression"
Posted by: "steph.sorensen" steph.sorensen@yahoo.com steph.sorensen
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:49 am ((PST))

Deb,

Ah, one of the many myths of raw feeding! I have also been told
numerous times that my dogs would get more aggressive by being fed
meat. Still waiting for that day to come. I'm not holding my
breath. :)

The fact that your Jacks have a taste for hunting is in their
blood. That is what they were bred for. In fact, since the
domestic dog is a subspecies of the wolf, one could go so far as to
say that it is instinct, not aggression, that drives hunting in all
canines.

I've got a pit bull and a lab, and nothing has changed except an
improvement in their health and a renewed vigor for their meals!
Scarlet and Lucy are still just as sweet as can
be. "Bloodthirstiness" is a myth.

-Steph and the girls

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Debi C" <dcole6@...> wrote:

> People are always telling me that feeding raw will make a dog
> agressive. I think it just makes them feel better and they want
to do
> more.
>
> Has anyone else heard this. I don't believe its true, but what's
the
> concensus here.
>
>

Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. Re: Breed specific info please : Springer spaniel
Posted by: "Penny (Nickles) Parker" loverladymaggiemae@yahoo.com loverladymaggiemae
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:22 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "sisterloui" <habershon@...> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I am at the moment the "carer" of my sisters springer spaniel.
>
> She is about 5 years old, hyperactive, nervous and timid and spends
> most of her time on her back in the submissive position.
>
> Have any of you experience of "nervy" spaniels.

Jane,
I have and foster both Cavalier King Charles Spaniels and English Toy
Spaniels. I feed everyone of the fosters raw even though they may
only be with me a short time. I believe it gives them a boost that
they desperately need and then I try to convince their forever family
to continue.
As for the behavior, I believe that can be slowly changed with the
proper love and training. Some dogs are more "nervy" than others and
require a special approach, but that is OT for this list.
The raw feeding will, however, help to balance the dog nutritionally
and then it will be more receptive to training.
Penny & The Menagerie

Messages in this topic (4)
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5a. Re: Anyone near Portland Oregon?
Posted by: "shelleywestre" shelleybelly1@hotmail.com shelleywestre
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:22 am ((PST))

This is a list that helps Oregon/WA folks find their raw meat, check
it out...they do group orders to save $$, you just have to volunteer
once in a while to help...

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/WAzzuOR_BARF/?yguid=234508764

Also check out Willamette Valley Meats, they sell wholesale by the
case for good prices, you can stop by and get their price list for
"pet food" and they are very accomodating on cutting to size if needed..

Hope this helps!

Shelley Westre

Messages in this topic (3)
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6a. Re: What to do with pork shoulder
Posted by: "Pamela Picard" pet.wellness@yahoo.com pet.wellness
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:22 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "johnsonkp200" <sunfiretervs@...>
wrote:
>
> Today I bought a 9 pound pork picnic shoulder, bone in. I have a 50 lb
> dog. Now, how do I serve it? I feed him 2x a day. Many say just give
it >
> Karen

***

I also have a 50 lb dog. I am not at all squeamish about putting down
and picking up a piece of meat. My standard poodle is self regulating
so eats only "enough" and goes through big meat like pork shoulder
roasts and turkey breasts before they start to smell. I do filet meat
off the bone to keep meat/bone/organ in balance. He tends to eat this
more quickly. The only issue we have now with raw feeding is that he
thinks the towel I put down is for his comfort. He lays on it and
moves the meat onto the rug. Poodles. We're working on that. LOL

Pamela Picard
http://www.pet-wellness-update.com
http://aimees-law.blogspot.com/
aimees_law-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

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Messages in this topic (6)
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6b. Re: What to do with pork shoulder
Posted by: "johnsonkp200" sunfiretervs@comcast.net johnsonkp200
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:22 am ((PST))

>> For your dog, you probably want to feed a little over a pound a meal
so that roast
> could last you about a week.

For my 50 lb dog that I feed twice a day, don't you mean a little over
a pound a day, IE 1/2 lb, 2 times a day? So the 9 pound roast should
last him, as you say, about a week?

Karen

Messages in this topic (6)
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6c. Re: What to do with pork shoulder
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:51 am ((PST))

You could feed through it until it is gone if you don't mind the roast
being in your fridge for nine days. Plunk it down in front of him and
let him eat about a pound before you take it away. It isn't necessary
to weigh exactly, just know that the roast = 9 days of food. If you
(or someone in the family) doesn't like the idea of a nine day old pork
hunk in the fridge, you could cut a hunk of meat off and freeze it for
later.

Wrestling with big food is good for dogs both physically and mentally,
so I wouldn't advise cutting it up into meal sized pieces.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "johnsonkp200" <sunfiretervs@...>
wrote:

> Today I bought a 9 pound pork picnic shoulder, bone in. I have a 50
> lb dog. Now, how do I serve it? I feed him 2x a day. Many say just
> give it to the dog whole. Isn't 9 pounds a bit too much for a meal?

Messages in this topic (6)
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7. strange habits of dobes
Posted by: "famtimes@blazenetme.net" famtimes@blazenetme.net famtimes2001
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:28 am ((PST))

Hi there,

When I first gave my youngest dog raw,
he threw it around for a while before he
figured out he was supposed to eat it.

When I had a reluctant/fussy eater
at the beginning, I ran the chicken
under warm water to bring it to room
temperature - giving it a bit more "scent"
perhaps. After a few times, I didn't have
to do that and my dogs will now take
things semi-frozen.

With liver, I usually mix it with something
else - like hamburger or ground turkey
and perhaps a little bacon grease...
and that seems to do the trick.

I do cook and dry liver for treats, too.
I'm not sure how much nutrient value
is lost but I know it's still good for them.

Jane B.

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Messages in this topic (1)
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8a. do you feed once or twice a day?
Posted by: "johnsonkp200" sunfiretervs@comcast.net johnsonkp200
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:29 am ((PST))

A recent post advised my cutting down from feeding my adult dog twice a
day to once. For no particular reason, just because I am feeding raw, I
suppose? I have always fed twice a day and they look forward to it as
part of their cherished routine. Plus, I thought that dogs digested raw
faster than they do kibble, so wouldn't they be hungrier sooner?

So my question is, do most feed their adult dogs one or two times a day
on raw diet? I could not figure out what to type in the search box to
find this. Thanks

Karen

Messages in this topic (8)
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8b. Re: do you feed once or twice a day?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:37 am ((PST))

When you are feeding raw, offering only one meal a day allows you to
give larger more complicated meals that are more satisfying for the
dog. Healthy adults don't need to be fed twice a day, in fact during
the winter time my GSP would rather eat a big meal every other day.

Also, feeding just once a day allows you to randomize the feeding time
which is great for human and dog alike. My first puppy had a fixed
feeding schedule at first and his life revolved around eating. Once he
graduated to single random meals his food obsession was reduced to
simple love of eating. Not to mention I didn't end up with bile vomit
if I got stuck in traffic on the way home and he missed "lunchtime."

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "johnsonkp200" <sunfiretervs@...>
wrote:

> So my question is, do most feed their adult dogs one or two times a
> day on raw diet?

Messages in this topic (8)
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8c. Re: do you feed once or twice a day?
Posted by: "Scott Baker" scottsbaker@gmail.com scottpsbaker
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:51 am ((PST))

Yup, I feed once a day, for this reason alone. To be able to feed larger
more complicated meals. I have a Bullmastiff and he gets roughly 2lbs a day.
Feeding small one pound meals would be way too small for him.

On Dec 12, 2007 11:37 AM, Andrea <poketmouse45@yahoo.com> wrote:

> When you are feeding raw, offering only one meal a day allows you to
> give larger more complicated meals that are more satisfying for the
> dog. Healthy adults don't need to be fed twice a day, in fact during
> the winter time my GSP would rather eat a big meal every other day.
>
> Also, feeding just once a day allows you to randomize the feeding time
> which is great for human and dog alike. My first puppy had a fixed
> feeding schedule at first and his life revolved around eating. Once he
> graduated to single random meals his food obsession was reduced to
> simple love of eating. Not to mention I didn't end up with bile vomit
> if I got stuck in traffic on the way home and he missed "lunchtime."
>
> Andrea
>

--
Scott

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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8d. Re: do you feed once or twice a day?
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:00 am ((PST))

A recent post advised my cutting down from feeding my adult dog twice a
day to once. For no particular reason, just because I am feeding raw, I
suppose? I have always fed twice a day and they look forward to it as
part of their cherished routine. Plus, I thought that dogs digested raw
faster than they do kibble, so wouldn't they be hungrier sooner?

### they quickly get over the expected feeding time when you eliminate
it. It's just habit and they adjust fast!

My dog will eat a huge meal one day, and sometimes not eat for the next
day or two, essentially eating 3-5 times per week depending on what the
meals are. Kind of like nature, right?.. They stretch those stomach walls
as nature designed... then empty them completely. VERY healthy....every dog
is different however, and dogs fed raw for a longer period of time almost
self regulate this way as they become content with proper nutrition for the
first time in their lives.

C hia & Ricco

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Messages in this topic (8)
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8e. Re: do you feed once or twice a day?
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:14 am ((PST))

Hi, Karen!
The healthful benefits of improved appearance, fewer health
problems and and a stronger immune system from feeding raw is only part of
the story!

The dental, mental and physical exercise that dogs obtain when eating large,
complicated and engaging meals are very important for dogs, too.

Also, feeding one meal a day leads to feeding larger meals every other day,
then to feeding Big Food every few days, then possibly to gorge meals, where
a dog might eat as much as several days worth at a time. Feeding this way
allows you the flexibility to feed a small meal or larger meals at various
times a day to accommodate changes in your daily schedule, without your dog
getting frantic or having the Bile Vomits every time a meal is 'late'.

Dogs, as the wolves they truly are, were meant to eat this way. It very
often helps to solve the problems people have with dogs who seem to be
constantly hungry, scarfing off counters, scrounging crumbs, digging into
the trash , begging at the table and when people are having snacks. Allowing
them to build up to feeding as they naturally would if they had to hunt
their own meals leads to dogs who are not constantly searching for their
next tiny meal, trying to fill the void.

I, and a lot of other raw feeders, believe that feeding in this manner leads
dogs to a more satisfied and relaxed emotional outlook, not as worried about
where the next meal is coming from, because they have experienced the
feeling of eating to satiety over and over again.

If you want to search the archives, using Gorge, Gorge and Fast, Big Food as
your key words should get you a lot of posts.
TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On Dec 12, 2007 10:28 AM, johnsonkp200 <sunfiretervs@comcast.net> wrote:

> A recent post advised my cutting down from feeding my adult dog twice a
> day to once. For no particular reason, just because I am feeding raw, I
> suppose? I have always fed twice a day and they look forward to it as
> part of their cherished routine. Plus, I thought that dogs digested raw
> faster than they do kibble, so wouldn't they be hungrier sooner?
>
> So my question is, do most feed their adult dogs one or two times a day
> on raw diet? I could not figure out what to type in the search box to
> find this. Thanks
>
> Karen
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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8f. Re: do you feed once or twice a day?
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:47 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "johnsonkp200" <sunfiretervs@...>
wrote:
>
> A recent post advised my cutting down from feeding my adult dog twice a
> day to once. For no particular reason, just because I am feeding raw, I
> suppose? I have always fed twice a day and they look forward to it as
> part of their cherished routine. Plus, I thought that dogs digested raw
> faster than they do kibble, so wouldn't they be hungrier sooner?
>
My girl was always fed once a day. Now I need to feed her twice, at
least when she gets beef meat, otherwise she gets reflux problems a
few hours later.

Jennifer

Messages in this topic (8)
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8g. Re: do you feed once or twice a day?
Posted by: "Dave Teetz" dteetz@gmail.com dteetz
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:49 am ((PST))

MODERATOR'S NOTE: PLEASE TRIM YOUR MESSAGES!

Just this past weekend I moved my dogs from twice a day to once a day. I'm
still new at raw, so there's some prep time until I get in a groove, but
once a day is saving lots of time. I've opted to feed at night so there is
no time wasted in the morning.

While practice makes perfect for prep time I can also say that once a day is
fantastic so far. Previously the dogs (GSD and Golden Ret.) would run
outside in the morning. The GR would forgo his morning potty and stand at
the door, staring in the window, waiting for food. Now he goes out and does
his thing then stares in the window to come in.

I do vary the feeding times at night so as to break the anticipation. The
dogs are doing just fine with it so far.

Dave

On Dec 12, 2007 10:28 AM, johnsonkp200 <sunfiretervs@comcast.net> wrote:

> A recent post advised my cutting down from feeding my adult dog twice a
> day to once. For no particular reason, just because I am feeding raw, I
> suppose? I have always fed twice a day and they look forward to it as
> part of their cherished routine. Plus, I thought that dogs digested raw
> faster than they do kibble, so wouldn't they be hungrier sooner?
>
> So my question is, do most feed their adult dogs one or two times a day
> on raw diet? I could not figure out what to type in the search box to
> find this. Thanks
>
> Karen
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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8h. Re: do you feed once or twice a day?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:01 am ((PST))

"Plus, I thought that dogs digested raw faster than they do kibble, so
wouldn't they be hungrier sooner"

I feed once a day because their systems are designed to eat a large meal,
then nothing for atleast 24 hours - it also gives their organs a break
between feedings.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (8)
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9a. Re: Hogmaw - the 'other' white meat?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:30 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Morledzep@... wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 12/10/2007 5:42:43 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> alabamdeb2@... writes:
>
> Is this considered muscle meat, like chicken gizzard, or is
> it considered organ meat?

All nutrients have been bleached out of it. It is considered
garbage. Don't bother feeding it.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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10a. Re: Grinders
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:47 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Fay" <agilecairns@...> wrote:
>
> I have recently adopted a dog who has only a few teeth left.
> Is there a
> recommended grinder that will handle chicken bones,etc?

There are many many dogs with as few as 2 or 3 teeth left that can
handle whole chicken parts easily including bones.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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10b. Re: Grinders
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:38 am ((PST))

"Fay" <agilecairns@...> wrote:>
> I have recently adopted a dog who has only a few teeth left. Is there
a
> recommended grinder that will handle chicken bones,etc?
*****
Such a dog does not need ground food. There are many people on this
list who feed dogs with few teeth, and they do so successfully with
whole meats and organs and appropriate bones. I recommend you browse
the list archives for previous solutions.

Chicken bones are easily eaten, no grinding needed. The only bones a
home grinder can deal with are the very bones even a disabled dog can
crunch on its own. Better to spend that grinder money on some lovely
grassfed meat.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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10c. Re: Grinders
Posted by: "cactususan" desperatelyseekingsusan@cox.net cactususan
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:59 am ((PST))

Let 'em use the teeth he's got left, or he'll loose those, too. He'll
figure it out.

Susan

Messages in this topic (4)
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11a. Re: not working yet - OT -- Sorry!
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:21 am ((PST))

"sheila" <schatzee@...> wrote:
>
> can you give me the link to raw chat? sheila
*****
Sheila, it's listed as one of several sister lists in the Admin posts
you received when you subscribed. Check your files.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (13)
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