[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12361

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Bury it
From: Laura Bonavia
1b. Re: Bury it
From: Laura Bonavia
1c. Re: Bury it
From: Andrea
1d. Re: Bury it
From: katkellm

2. Recovering from Parvo and feeding
From: Donna

3a. Re: Breed specific info please : Springer spaniel
From: Andrea
3b. Re: Breed specific info please : Springer spaniel
From: costrowski75

4a. Re: New raw feeder with concerns about cleanliness
From: Andrea
4b. Re: New raw feeder with concerns about cleanliness
From: costrowski75
4c. Re: New raw feeder with concerns about cleanliness
From: ginny wilken
4d. Re: New raw feeder with concerns about cleanliness
From: Eddie Scholten

5a. Frozen fish uncleaned
From: Transmission_Doctor
5b. Re: Frozen fish uncleaned
From: Andrea
5c. Re: Frozen fish uncleaned
From: Eddie Scholten
5d. Re: Frozen fish uncleaned
From: carnesbill

6. Progress as we begin week three, hooray!
From: mozookpr

7a. He did it!
From: mozookpr

8a. Re: Eggs and other extras
From: Tina Berry

9a. Re: diarhea
From: costrowski75

10a. grinding
From: Moon Creek Arabians
10b. Re: grinding
From: Daisy Foxworth

11a. Leg quarters question
From: A.
11b. Re: Leg quarters question
From: Andrea
11c. Re: Leg quarters question
From: costrowski75

12. Broken puppy tooth
From: Sonja

Messages
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1a. Re: Bury it
Posted by: "Laura Bonavia" lasme8@yahoo.com thebunnylady
Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:49 am ((PST))

Hi,

I feed him on a table cloth inside when it rains and
that is what he burried it in. I leave it for an hour
and then put it in the frig. Afraid to leave it out.
Should I leave it out for him?

We only started raw about 2 weeks ago, started on
chicken switched to lamb this weekend. He liked it
but his waste was loose and yellow. Gave it to him
one more day and went back to chicken. Have goat in
the freezer. When digestive track is off track do to
newly introduced protein, do you continue with it to
get them used to it?

Laura Bonavia

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Messages in this topic (7)
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1b. Re: Bury it
Posted by: "Laura Bonavia" lasme8@yahoo.com thebunnylady
Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:49 am ((PST))

Now that I think about it, I did feed him a larger
meal just before that. In two weeks time he has
maintained same weight, I guess he knows when he needs
to eat.

Laura

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Messages in this topic (7)
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1c. Re: Bury it
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:20 am ((PST))

> I leave it for an hour and then put it in the frig. Afraid to
> leave it out. Should I leave it out for him?

IMO, leaving the food there for an hour is more than long enough. No
worries that the food will go bad in that time, though. If my dogs
don't show interest in their food within about 15 minutes I put it away
for the next meal.

> When digestive track is off track do to newly introduced protein,
> do you continue with it to get them used to it?

If I give something new and it produces loose stools I usually give a
day off from the new protein and then feed the next meal half new/half
regular food.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (7)
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1d. Re: Bury it
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:43 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Laura Bonavia <lasme8@...> wrote:
> When digestive track is off track do to
> newly introduced protein, do you continue with it to
> get them used to it?

Hi Laura,
You could do that if you don't mind dealing with some loose stools,
getting past the mess of loose stools seems to be a no go for most new
to raw feeders, or you could go back to the chicken until things are
firmed up and then maybe try introducing the lamb a little bit
differently. If you feed once a day, i would recommend feeding a
small portion of lamb as a side dish with a proportionately smaller
amount of chicken. Gradually, increase the amount of lamb as you
decrease the amount of chicken. If you feed 2xs a day, offer lamb as a
part of or all of one of the meals. I think our bury the food dog
habits should be handled a little differently. I never feed inside,
but if i did, i would give my dog 10 mins to eat and if she didn't
eat, i would remove the food and offer nothing until the next day.
When my dog doesn't eat, she happily trots off into the woods to hide
her stash, and i think its kinda wolf like naturally cool. I just
didn't want you to waste the meat because i couldn't afford to feed
food that never got eaten. <g> HTH, KathyM

Messages in this topic (7)
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2. Recovering from Parvo and feeding
Posted by: "Donna" donnad2998@yahoo.com donnad2998
Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:49 am ((PST))

I have a new puppy that is recovering very well from parvo. The
foster mom gave me canned ID and puppy food. I feed my other 2 RAW.
Do I do this canned of ID or just start her right on RAW. She is 3
months old and is starving all the time after what she went through it
doesn't surprise me but it kills me to feed her the food foster mom
gave me but I never had to deal with parvo. Will the RAW harder up
the loose stools as well? I know start her on chicken I have a nice
leg waiting at home for her. She is a beagle.
Thank you,
Donna, KC, Shiloh Bailey (new one)

Messages in this topic (1)
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3a. Re: Breed specific info please : Springer spaniel
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:05 am ((PST))

I'm not a spaniel owner, but I have seen the fantastic effects a
species appropriate diet can have on hyperactive dogs. All the carbs
in kibble give the poor pooch an excess of energy all the time. Giving
a proper diet will allow her to calm down for the first time in five
years.

> I feel that it would be unfair on the dog to switch her feeding
> routine only to have her put back on kibble in a few months time.

It is possible that after a few months the changes in the girl will be
so dramatic that her owner will decide to continue the diet. Worst
case scenario, the dog gets to eat real food for a little while and she
loves you forever.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (3)
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3b. Re: Breed specific info please : Springer spaniel
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:42 am ((PST))

"sisterloui" <habershon@...> wrote:
> I am at the moment the "carer" of my sisters springer spaniel.
>
> She is about 5 years old, hyperactive, nervous and timid and spends
> most of her time on her back in the submissive position.
>
> Have any of you experience of "nervy" spaniels.
*****
Yes, they're "nervy" like other dogs can be "nervy" if they're poorly
bred, poorly cared for, poorly fed. My guess is your sister's
Springer is all of those things. Not intentionally of course, but
inadvertently with all the best in mind for the dog,

It will take more than switching to a species appropriate diet to
change this poor dog. And fixing it may not be possible. But
certainly you can modify some of the behaviors, give the dog other
ways to express itself. This however would not be the list on which
to discuss such retraining.

> I feel that it would be unfair on the dog to switch her feeding
> routine only to have her put back on kibble in a few months time.
*****
Now that you are aware of raw food and know something about species
appropriate diets, I think it would be cruel to deprive your sister's
dog of the healthiest meals you can provide. What happens next you
may or may not be able to affect; do the best you can now. IMO it is
unfair to have abilities and not use them.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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4a. Re: New raw feeder with concerns about cleanliness
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:15 am ((PST))

Dogs generally keep themselves very clean on their own. On rare
occasions I wipe down their paws with a towel if they have leftovers
there. They both wipe their faces on their beds after eating and I
have even seen them clean each other's faces. There's no need
to "clean" them any more than they do on their own.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "bettathang" <bettathang@...> wrote:

> They're both really good about eating in the kitchen, but their
> front feet get the meaty juices on them, which they proceed to drag
> around the house and onto the furniture. Any helpful hints?

Messages in this topic (12)
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4b. Re: New raw feeder with concerns about cleanliness
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:27 am ((PST))

"bettathang" <bettathang@...> wrote:
I was wondering
> what everyone else does about keeping their house clean after meal
> time.
*****
Oh my. When I feed outside tain't no big deal. When I feed inside I
either put down an eating surface--towel, square of vinyl flooring,
section of carpet, tarp--or I feed on tiled floors. Or in a crate.
With feeding surfaces, you can fold or roll or crumple them up, shake
them outside (and/or swab them down with a damp rag) and that's
that. My dogs tend to keep feeding surfaces (and crates) clean on
their own dime and what the dogs miss the cats certainly take care
of. Cleaning most any surface with vinegar/water works fine.

but their
> front feet get the meaty juices on them, which they proceed to drag
> around the house and onto the furniture.
*****
They drag their feet? Hmm. I think you are stressing way too much
about these unclean dogs of yours. If they are remiss in cleaning
their own feet (or each other's feet), wiping their feet with
vinegar/water is quick, easy and sufficient.

I'm
> really concerned about my family sitting/playing/etc on raw meat
slime.
>
*****
I have never seen "raw meat slime" left on any surface after a meal.
But feeding on a washable surface that can be wiped off after a meal
will deal with your almost certainly overstated concerns. Done and
done.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (12)
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4c. Re: New raw feeder with concerns about cleanliness
Posted by: "ginny wilken" gwilken@alamedanet.net ginny439
Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:54 am ((PST))

>
> Hi, yes, this is a poser for me too, but right now I feed outside
> and just check on my puppy before he comes inside...if he's really
> messy (paws and or face), I will give him a wipe over with a damp
> cloth that has a little dish-wash liquid soap on it. But as he
> spends a lot of time 'living' in my kitchen, until he's fully
> trained, etc., I can keep him away from the furniture if I really
> need to. If he's not too messy, I watch to see when he's settled
> down if he starts to clean himself a little. And sometimes he
> does, but not so very well. So, I hope he'll clean himself more
> efficiently in time to come.
>
> I too would be interesting in others' advice on this one, as I
> admit to being bit of a hand-washing obsessive when handling meaty
> or ''toilety'' things!

NO detergent left on the dogs, please! It's bad for everyone, and
water works just fine. Your problem can be worked on, but in the
meantime don't inflict anything noxious on your dogs.

The "world view" you want to develop is that we are all just
collections of carbon-based molecules, held together with a little
water. Plants get miraculously converted to animals, which become
meat, and then miraculously converted to nutrients and stuff we can't
use - poop. It's all the same stuff, in or out, dogs or humans or
spiders or trees. You don't have to get stupid about exposure, but
all this stuff is familiar and natural, and your body can cope with
it. The same is NOT true of the chemicals we have invented, like
detergents and antimicrobials. We have no defense against their
poisoning save for our livers' valiant efforts to deal with something
they were never designed to handle.

ginny and Tomo - Okay, let's go to Rawchat now....

All stunts performed without a net!

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Messages in this topic (12)
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4d. Re: New raw feeder with concerns about cleanliness
Posted by: "Eddie Scholten" shirl-ed@hotmail.com shirley11964
Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:09 am ((PST))

Thanks, Ginny. I appreciate the advice not to leave any soap residue on my dog. Good point. I will definitely use vinegar and water as a cleaner if I need one in future. Most days I don't need to clean my pup, but I am generally cautious and I don't apologise for being that way and I don't have the desire of developing a 'world view' on any matter, except perhaps the one that I imagine all of us on this list would hope the world would adopt: raw-feeding.

But your reply reminded me that had I once been told of a German woman who showered in cold water and only used a STONE to scrub her skin. I was also told that her reason for doing so was because she was too tight-fisted to pay for hot water or soap! Nothing so grand as a 'world view' where detergents are the enemy!

Shirley.
_______________________________________________________
The "world view" you want to develop is that we are all just collections of carbon-based molecules, held together with a little water. Plants get miraculously converted to animals, which become meat, and then miraculously converted to nutrients and stuff we can't use - poop. It's all the same stuff, in or out, dogs or humans or spiders or trees. You don't have to get stupid about exposure, but all this stuff is familiar and natural, and your body can cope with it. The same is NOT true of the chemicals we have invented, like detergents and antimicrobials. We have no defense against their poisoning save for our livers' valiant efforts to deal with something they were never designed to handle.ginny and Tomo

_________________________________________________________________
http://www.live.com/?mkt=nl-nl
Live.nl

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Messages in this topic (12)
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5a. Frozen fish uncleaned
Posted by: "Transmission_Doctor" jerry@repsolutions.info Transmission_Doctor
Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:43 am ((PST))

Hi,

I was just given a quantiy of freezer burned fish that was frozen just
as it came out of the water. Heads, scales guts and all. It was never
cleaned.

What do I do with this??? Thaw it and feed as is? Thaw it clean it
and feed?? Suggestions welcome. BTW it is a mix of species, not sure
what all, some catfish, the rest I expect are salt water, but not sure
what, the largest is about 18 inches long. The one thing I was sure
that I would do is to clip the spiny sitckers on the catfish.
Anything else??

Thanks

Jerry

Messages in this topic (4)
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5b. Re: Frozen fish uncleaned
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:04 am ((PST))

Yup, feed whole. I'd feed one fish at a time, adding other food if the
fish doesn't make a whole meal. Fish is a great source of whole prey.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Transmission_Doctor" <jerry@...>
wrote:

> I was just given a quantiy of freezer burned fish that was frozen
> just as it came out of the water. Heads, scales guts and all. It
> was never cleaned.

Messages in this topic (4)
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5c. Re: Frozen fish uncleaned
Posted by: "Eddie Scholten" shirl-ed@hotmail.com shirley11964
Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:16 am ((PST))

Hi,

I just fed a whole mackeral a few days ago. It had been frozen, all intact, and I just defrosted it and fed it as it was...it was very well received and not a sign of it was left when our dog had finished with it...even the ground was cleaned (we feed outside)!Shirley

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Messages in this topic (4)
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5d. Re: Frozen fish uncleaned
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:47 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Transmission_Doctor" <jerry@...>
wrote:
>

Yes, clip the barbs off the catfish. Otherwise feed thawed as is.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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6. Progress as we begin week three, hooray!
Posted by: "mozookpr" mozookpr@yahoo.com mozookpr
Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:00 am ((PST))

It's a good day here!

Sophie had a normal stool this morning, her second! Thanks to all who
advised. I think skinning the chicken and offering three smaller meals
instead of two larger ones did the trick.

And if that didn't already make my morning, Foxy finally ate a bone! I
was just writing a reply elsewhere about this when I went to check on
him with his breakfast, and wonder of wonders, he was munching away on
the remains of last night's chicken thigh. He also ate well last
night, although he ate meat only.

Solid poops and lovely crunching sounds -- such cheap thrills we get as
raw-feeders, huh? <g> My mom just couldn't understand why I was so
overjoyed by my puppy's poop this morning, but I knew you all would get
it.

Thanks again to everyone who has been so patient.

Wendy and the meat-eaters, Foxy and Sophie

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7a. He did it!
Posted by: "mozookpr" mozookpr@yahoo.com mozookpr
Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:16 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mozookpr" <mozookpr@> wrote:
>
> Wendy,
> Exactly what are you feeding him? What happens if you feed him a
> chicken quarter? I can't imagine him eating all the meat in a
chicken
> quarter without eating some bone.
>
Foxy ate a chicken bone this morning, a thigh bone with some meat, left
over from last night. Prior to this, he had just been nibbling or
gnawing off a bite or two of meat and walking away.

Yay!

Wendy

Messages in this topic (18)
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8a. Re: Eggs and other extras
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:16 am ((PST))

"I never feed eggs with liver or squidgy organs, just tempting fate"

Tempting fate to what? I haven't heard not to mix eggs with organs.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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Messages in this topic (7)
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9a. Re: diarhea
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:49 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Judy McCammon
<fenstokebullmastiffs@...> wrote:
>
> much appreciate the help,,as I thought,was just adjustment to feed
and travelling, new water and organ too soon,etc. gave him some
pumpkin and next poo was normal....
*****
This means little. Most evidence of bleeding can be removed when a
bandage is applied. It is what happens when the bandage is removed
that matters. Same with pumpkin or other plant matter.

If the stools remain stable and to your liking when the pumpkin is
through your dog's system, great. But without a corresponding menu
change my guess is as soon as the pumpkin is gone, the loose stools
will resume.

In that case, sooner or later you will have to address menu mistakes.
Chris O

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10a. grinding
Posted by: "Moon Creek Arabians" lephillips@rangeweb.net phillips.erika
Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:02 am ((PST))

EDITED BY MODERATOR. WHEN YOU INTRODUCE A NEW TOPIC PLEASE START A NEW SUBJECT LINE.

I grind everything. Is there a problem with grinding? It fits better in my freezer and is easier to deal with....

Erika P

Messages in this topic (3)
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10b. Re: grinding
Posted by: "Daisy Foxworth" daisyfoxworth@yahoo.com daisyfoxworth
Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:18 am ((PST))

Is the kitty kibble grain-based? That could be much of the problem
with their weight. Some of it is explained here:

http://maxshouse.com/feline_nutrition.htm

"A carnivorous diet is comprised of primarily protein and fat from
animal tissue. ... Dry foods typically contain 35-40%
carbohydrate. Carbohydrates are nearly absent in the cat's natural
diet. The cat obtains small amounts of carbohydrate through the
stomach and intestines of her prey. Commercial dry foods, however,
may contain as much as 45% - 50% carbohydrates. Since the cat
metabolizes primarily fat and protein for energy, most of the excess
carbohydrate is stored in the body as glycogen and fat. The primary
adverse effect of excess carbohydrate is obesity."

Cats can be difficult to transition, so you may need to proceed in
steps anyway. While you are settling in the dogs, consider changing
the cats to a grain-free kibble, or even better to a grain-free
canned food. From there it is a much easier jump to raw.

Good luck, Daisy

Messages in this topic (3)
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11a. Leg quarters question
Posted by: "A." ols@charter.net cesare.1920
Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:03 am ((PST))

I have just started my English Mastiffs on bones. They have been
eating raw for awhile and they are doing well on it.

My problem is that I bought chicken wings first because I couldn't
find any necks (which I heard was easy to start them on). My girls are
about 120 and 160 pounds so they just swallowed them whole which
scared me :) I have given them leg quarters the last few days. They
are actually chewing them up but not tearing them apart. So basically
they crunch them up and swallow the whole thing. They are having no
problems swallowing so far but it makes me nervous such a big piece
going down at once.

Is this ok? Should I be separating the leg from the other part?

Thanks :-)

Amanda

Messages in this topic (3)
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11b. Re: Leg quarters question
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:15 am ((PST))

No additional separating is needed. In fact, if you want them to do
more work on the food you should give them half or whole chickens. I
generally find whole chickens much cheaper than quarters, so my dogs
(about 60lbs) get whole chickens. For dogs as large as yours I
wouldn't offer anything smaller than a quarter, and only quarters if
you feel they are chomping enough, even if they don't tear it apart.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "A." <ols@...> wrote:

> I have given them leg quarters the last few days. They
> are actually chewing them up but not tearing them apart. So
> basically they crunch them up and swallow the whole thing. They are
> having no problems swallowing so far but it makes me nervous such a
> big piece going down at once.

Messages in this topic (3)
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11c. Re: Leg quarters question
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:19 am ((PST))

"A." <ols@...> wrote:>
> I have just started my English Mastiffs on bones. They have been
> eating raw for awhile and they are doing well on it.
*****
What raw were they eating before eating bones? Just meat? How long?

> My problem is that I bought chicken wings first because I couldn't
> find any necks (which I heard was easy to start them on)
*****
Yeah, this is indeed a problem. However, plunking good money down on
chicken necks for your big dogs would be have as bad, if not worse.

Neither necks nor wings are appropriate for your lovely great girls.
I don't know whose advice you were following but the person must not
have had any experience with dogs larger than five pounds.

Feed through the wings by adding them to goodly clumps of meat; don't
expect your dogs to chew them (or anything: dogs don't chew like we
chew) though, and don't buy more when you finally get rid of them.
Ooh, maybe you can trade them/sell them to someone who is feeding raw
to cats or wee sma dogs.

I have given them leg quarters the last few days. They
> are actually chewing them up but not tearing them apart. So
basically
> they crunch them up and swallow the whole thing. They are having no
> problems swallowing so far
*****
You are still feeding food that is too small but your girls are
eating precisely perfectly as they ought. Dogs crunch, smash, chomp,
slime and swallow. The job of the mouth is to make the food fit down
the throat. If you feed food that is already to that size, there's
no work but swallowing to be done.

However, if you feed big food--food that's awkward, complicated,
difficult, contrary, clumsy and altogether a logistics nightmare,
your dogs will have to put some mouth power into the meal. That's
how they are built to eat and that's how you should be feeding them.

but it makes me nervous such a big piece
> going down at once.
*****
Feed bigger. For your dogs, half chickens should be the smallest you
should consider. Whole birds would be better.

> Is this ok? Should I be separating the leg from the other part?
*****
No, don't be making things smaller. Cut less, feed bigger. Your
dogs are up to it.
Chris O

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12. Broken puppy tooth
Posted by: "Sonja" ladyver@sbcglobal.net lonepalm77
Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:07 am ((PST))

We have a 5-1/2 month old labrador who hasn't lost her canine teeth yet (when do these normally pop out?). I checked them again this weekend and one is broken, there's just a sharp shard sticking out of her gums. It doesn't seem to bother her, can I wait until it comes out on it's own? Or should I take her to the vet? It wiggles a bit, but I wasn't going to try to remove it.

Sonja

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