[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12354

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Ease the itching
From: Andrea
1b. Re: Ease the itching
From: carnesbill
1c. Re: Ease the itching
From: Casey Post
1d. Re: Ease the itching
From: amvilppu
1e. Re: Ease the itching
From: Michael Moore

2a. Re: vomiting after eating a rabbit leg
From: Andrea
2b. Re: vomiting after eating a rabbit leg
From: costrowski75
2c. Re: vomiting after eating a rabbit leg
From: Susanne MacLeod

3a. Re: Small Chihuahua Starting RAW
From: Andrea
3b. Re: Small Chihuahua Starting RAW
From: Kelly
3c. Re: Small Chihuahua Starting RAW
From: amvilppu
3d. Re: Small Chihuahua Starting RAW
From: costrowski75

4a. Re: PRAA and Mega-E
From: carnesbill

5a. Re: Fish and Game
From: costrowski75

6a. rawfeeding puppy
From: bunchodogs
6b. Re: rawfeeding puppy
From: costrowski75
6c. Re: rawfeeding puppy
From: carnesbill
6d. Re: rawfeeding puppy
From: connie

7a. new to list - any germans out there?
From: ddgkkg2003
7b. Re: new to list - any germans out there?
From: costrowski75
7c. Re: new to list - any germans out there?
From: SLib700@aol.com

8.1. Re: Help!
From: kahonebay

9. A warning about feeding in wood chips.
From: Maria

10. Raw egg yolks not raw egg whites
From: Sai Simonson

11. Squirrels and Rabbits
From: eclipseapbts

Messages
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1a. Re: Ease the itching
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 6:56 am ((PST))

Hey, Tammy, the safest thing to do would be to go back to pork only and
build up from there. If he's having a problem with one of the foods
you'll be able to pinpoint which one it is by adding only one new
protein every two or three weeks.

It could be a coat change as well. Many dogs seem to go into shedding
overdrive in the first few months of raw before they have a new
beautiful coat. You might look into giving some fish body oil to him,
that helps my pups when they start shedding.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "sltahoek9s" <crazy4k9@...> wrote:

> The itching didn't seem to be any worse until the last week. Now
> its pretty bad. He is scratching and chewing at his back end and
> legs.

Messages in this topic (6)
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1b. Re: Ease the itching
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 7:44 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Andrea" <poketmouse45@...> wrote:
>
I agree with Andrea. Go back to the beginning and start over again.
If his itching gets no better after a few weeks on pork only, stop the
pork and try something else. If that doesn't help, his problem is
probably not food related.

Since he performs in public often (I assume you use him for a demo
dog), maybe its stress related. Just a thought.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (6)
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1c. Re: Ease the itching
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 8:56 am ((PST))

Tammy C,

Chewing back end and legs makes me think "fleas". Get a good flea comb and
check your guy over really carefully. Look for flea dirt, little red bites,
etc. - even a couple of fleas can drive a highly allergic dog bonkers with
itching.

My other thought is that if you're in the US, maybe winter dry skin? Some
fish oil (not cod liver oil, just fish body oil) may be all that's needed.
But fleas would definitely be the first thing I check for with this guy.

You said that you made sure your meats weren't enhanced - check the pork
too. Pork in the US is being increasingly enhanced in places and it's
ridiculous.

As for the vaccine issue, that's off topic here and would have to go to
RawChat (http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawChat/)

Casey

Messages in this topic (6)
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1d. Re: Ease the itching
Posted by: "amvilppu" amvilppu@hotmail.com amvilppu
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 10:09 am ((PST))

> Chewing back end and legs makes me think "fleas". Get a good flea comb and
> check your guy over really carefully. Look for flea dirt, little red bites,
> etc. - even a couple of fleas can drive a highly allergic dog bonkers with
> itching.
>
> My other thought is that if you're in the US, maybe winter dry skin? Some
> fish oil (not cod liver oil, just fish body oil) may be all that's needed.
> But fleas would definitely be the first thing I check for with this guy.
>

The itching may be allergy related but not diet related. My girlfriend has two goldens with
tons of environmental allergies and for whatever reason the fall and winter months here in
California are when theirs really kick up. Lots of miserable itching and chewing! Good luck!

Annaliisa, Drew and Boxer pup Laila

Messages in this topic (6)
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1e. Re: Ease the itching
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 11:48 am ((PST))

>>Not sure what to do about that one yet since I'm a trainer and he's in public all the
time.<<

Tammy -- this is off-topic for the rawfeeding list, but I own a training school and my dogs are in the public all the time too. You may e-mail me off-list for my opinions, or you can join the JstSayNo2Vaccs list.

My thought on your guy's itchies -- might the chicken you're feeding be enhanced? Some dogs have reactions to the solutions used to "enhance" said meat.

-- Anne and the PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (6)
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2a. Re: vomiting after eating a rabbit leg
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 6:59 am ((PST))

Could be that it was too "new" for her. Could be that she ate it too
quickly. Could be she didn't chew much the first time. Did you let
her try to re-eat it? I'd try it again and if she horks it up leave it
for her. If she isn't interested in re-eating it she may just not like
rabbit.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "killarneykateau" <catherin@...>
wrote:

> I fed my 15 kilo dog a rabbit leg today, human grade meat, and she
> vomited it up half an hour later. She usually eats lamb shanks,
> chicken carcasses, chicken necks, some fish. Should I try some rabbit
> again?

Messages in this topic (4)
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2b. Re: vomiting after eating a rabbit leg
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 8:10 am ((PST))

"killarneykateau" <catherin@...> wrote:
> I fed my 15 kilo dog a rabbit leg today, human grade meat, and she
vomited it up half an
> hour later.
*****
Since none of the other foods you feed are rabbit, rabbit was a novel
food to her and her system decided it was too movel. Or maybe the bone
was too difficult (did she chomp or just slime and swallow?). Or
perhaps a rabbit leg is too bony a part to start with.

If you want to pursue rabbit, I recommend you give her meat first no
bone, then judge her reaction. Perhaps add the meat to a meal she is
already accustomed to.

Don't give up, just go slow.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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2c. Re: vomiting after eating a rabbit leg
Posted by: "Susanne MacLeod" suzmacleod@rogers.com skull25ca
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 11:16 am ((PST))

My guys....Joey and Kate (French Bulldogs) love rabbit, but my boy Joey
had the same difficulty. He hurled it up after....not sure why. I
decided to try to hold the leg and let him slowly eat it, and make sure
he chewed it all, was crucial. Once he found hi way...he was all
good. No more vomiting. His sister Kate had no problem, but she's a
great eater!
Suz Kate and Joey

Messages in this topic (4)
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3a. Re: Small Chihuahua Starting RAW
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 7:11 am ((PST))

> Last night I offered a chicken quarter. <snip> Do I just let him
> poke around for a while then pick it up and try again the next day
> and just continue till he figures out he needs to pin the dang
> thing down and rip it up?

I'm a big advocate of bigger is better, but a chicken quarter might
be a little daunting for the kid. I'd cut into the meat so that
there are ribbons that he can get a hold of. He's got the instincts,
he just needs a nudge to figure out the logistics of eating.

> Also, he's only pooped 1/4 of a TEASPOON since the chicken wing
> Tuesday night. I bought some pure pumpkin last night

Many newbie dogs don't poo for the first couple of days after
switching to raw. Their bodies are digesting everything they can
from the food so there isn't much waste. In the future if your pup
is constipated it would be more advisable to feed a meaty meal or a
glop of organ instead of pumpkin.

> I'm open to suggestions/comments - anything :)

Other than ribboning the meat you might want to give something easier
like a breast quarter or a cornish game hen. Little'uns often take
some time to build up thier jaw strength to where they can crunch
larger chicken bones.

Other than not knowing how to tackle his food, it sounds like he's
doing just great, and so are you. Let us know how it goes.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (12)
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3b. Re: Small Chihuahua Starting RAW
Posted by: "Kelly" kpetska@mgmmirage.com kpet1218
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 9:26 am ((PST))

Thank you all for the awesome feedback! I feel much better about it
now. Last night he pooed for my hubby but it was dark and I didn't
have a flashlight to go inspect :) He had his serving of just meat
last night but there's a thigh bone in there for tonight. I think I'll
try searing it like was suggested - thank you.

Now I just need to find a place I can get a game hen or the breast
quarters with bone - it's hard to find any chicken with bone at
supermarket...even at the counter - apparently most of it come to them
already de-boned. The cornish hens at the supermarket come in packs of
two and they're rather expensive.

I'm in Vegas if there's anyone else here, where do you get yours? I
don't have the freezer space or really the need to order bulk.

Thanks in advance to all the great advice!

Kelly Petska

Messages in this topic (12)
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3c. Re: Small Chihuahua Starting RAW
Posted by: "amvilppu" amvilppu@hotmail.com amvilppu
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 10:36 am ((PST))

>
> Now I just need to find a place I can get a game hen or the breast
> quarters with bone - it's hard to find any chicken with bone at
> supermarket...even at the counter - apparently most of it come to them
> already de-boned. The cornish hens at the supermarket come in packs of
> two and they're rather expensive.
>
Hi Kelly-
Just get whole chickens and cut them into hunks! Smart & Final often has whole fryers for 77
cents a lb. Sorry I don't have any suggestions for cornish hens. They are too little for our pup.

Annaliisa, Drew and Boxer pup Laila

Messages in this topic (12)
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3d. Re: Small Chihuahua Starting RAW
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 11:11 am ((PST))

"Kelly" <kpetska@...> wrote:
> Now I just need to find a place I can get a game hen or the breast
> quarters with bone - it's hard to find any chicken with bone at
> supermarket...even at the counter - apparently most of it come to
them
> already de-boned. The cornish hens at the supermarket come in
packs of
> two and they're rather expensive.
*****
I don't live in Vegas and I don't know where you've looked or how
hard, but I googled LV Yellow Pages and found 12 pages
of "supermarkets" that included Walmart, Vons, Albertson's, Whole
Foods, Trader Joe's, a slew of Asian and Latino and Middle Eastern
markets, Farmer's Markets and--unfortunately--also zillion 7-ll's so
clearly not every entry is a winner. I didn't even get to "grocers-
wholesale" or "grocery stores".

Here in Sacatomatoes I can find packages of whole dressed quail in
virtually every Asian market. They're not bargain basement priced
but they are worth it at least occasionally IMO. Cornish game hens
are great because they're just the right size for small eaters but
they're simply younger chickens so consider chicken instead and keep
your eyes open for game hen sales. Asian markets sell lots of
chicken parts as well as a large selection of pork parts and fish.

If you have access to a Grocery Outlet store, check there for less
expensive game hens, also four ounce portions of boneless wild salmon
or cod or Tilapia for 99 cents.

It should not be that difficult to find appropriate food at decent
prices but it may require leaving the areas you are most comfortable
in.

Good luck.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (12)
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4a. Re: PRAA and Mega-E
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 7:44 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "happy_furkids" <tracy@...> wrote:
>
> He recently had surgery to correct PRAA and has now
> been diagnosed with Mega Esophagus.

I want to emphasize that I am NOT a vet and my knowledge of this is
very limited. Mega in itself is not a nutrition problem nor will
nutrition help it in any way. Mega is usually a genetic problem but
in this case, if I understand your post correctly, MAY have been
caused by the PRAA surgery or may have been there all along and
didn't become apparent until after the surgery.

Either way, the outlook for this guy isn't good. He is not going to
get any better no matter what you do. Most breeders, when they
realize that one of thier pups has mega will go ahead and put him
down. I know a few that tried to raise them but in the end wish
they hadn't. Rarely do they make it to their first birthday.

I have never known of anyone trying to feed a mega dog a raw diet
and other than ground, I don't have a clue how you would go about
it. I know you must feed elevated and keep his head elavated for a
time after each meal.

Anyway, thats more than I know about the subject. Good luck with
this little guy. I wish I could be more encouraging. Hopefully
someone else who is more knowledgeable will post and give more
positive information.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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5a. Re: Fish and Game
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 8:01 am ((PST))

Yasuko herron <sunshine_annamaria@...> wrote:
> Last week,yes,I fed frog leg only one but ALONG WITH other meat
organ and fish.
*****
Yassy, is it your practice to feed organs with every meal?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (10)
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6a. rawfeeding puppy
Posted by: "bunchodogs" bunchodogs@hotmail.com bunchodogs
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 8:26 am ((PST))

I will be getting an 8 week old puppy in January and I am a bit
nervous about his feeding. I have been rawfeeding for about 4 years,
but my dogs were adults when I started. I don't feed my adults bone
with every meal, but they get bone every other day. Is this
sufficient for a puppy or should he have some bone everyday? I
understand the 10% bone issue, but just don't know if that means every
day or just so it "evens out" during the course of a week or so.

Linda

Messages in this topic (4)
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6b. Re: rawfeeding puppy
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 8:51 am ((PST))

"bunchodogs" <bunchodogs@...> wrote:>
> I will be getting an 8 week old puppy in January and I am a bit
> nervous about his feeding.
*****
Feeding raw to a pup is big fun! You get as many as 28 meals a week to
practice with. And since these meals are small, you can't go too far
astray in any given meal. I recommend starting with something YOU are
comfortable with but to introduce new meats, textures, sizes and
flavors shortly thereafter, in bits and snatches.

I don't feed my adults bone
> with every meal, but they get bone every other day. Is this
> sufficient for a puppy or should he have some bone everyday?
*****
I don't feed bone with every meal either to my adults (I feed every
other day by and large, which means I feed a bone-in meal two or three
times a week, that's it), but I do find myself feeding more bony meals
to pups. Probably because there are just more meals involved.

When I am feeding four meals a day, two usually include bone; when I
feed three meals sometimes two contain bone and sometimes only one
does; when the pup has graduated to two meals generally only one is
bone; and when the young dog eats one meal a day I include bone every
other day. To a great extent it depends on the pup and the bone.

I don't pay all that much attention to the "10% edible bone" notion
except as a reminder that a good raw diet doesn't require much edible
bone. My guess is even when I am feeding four squares a day I rarely
hit 25% edible bone.

What kind of pup will you be getting?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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6c. Re: rawfeeding puppy
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 8:54 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "bunchodogs" <bunchodogs@...> wrote:
>
> I have been rawfeeding for about 4 years,
> but my dogs were adults when I started.

Feed the puppy exactly like the adults. You may or may not want to
smash the bones with a hammer or mallet the first couple of weeks.

> I don't feed my adults bone
> with every meal, but they get bone every other day. Is this
> sufficient for a puppy or should he have some bone everyday?

Feed the puppy exactly like the adults.

> I
> understand the 10% bone issue, but just don't know if that
> means every
> day or just so it "evens out" during the course of a week or so.

It means "over time". Time could be a week or a month.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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6d. Re: rawfeeding puppy
Posted by: "connie" justbullies@hotmail.com bullienut
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 9:27 am ((PST))

I had my first raw fed litter a few months back...The dam to this litter
(this is the first time I`ve had this happen) would regurgitate her
food for the pups during weaning. She did this right up till the last
pup left for his new home. And the pups went nuts for this slimy pile
of food. So I let her help feed the pups cause it seemed to make her
happy :) and helped me out..lol...So these pups were getting exactly
what she was being fed. Of course I fed her as if she was still
nursing..larger portions. So the pups got bone about 3-4 times a
week..thats it...same as mom.I would still offer 4 raw meals a day(what
ever the adult dogs were getting they would get the same)but never seen
them go nuts like they did over what mom dog gave them :)These babies
were so fat and healthy,with gorgeous coats. And in the wild thats what
the wolf pack will do for it`s pups. It was a very interesting
experience.
~connie~
www.justbullies.com

Messages in this topic (4)
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7a. new to list - any germans out there?
Posted by: "ddgkkg2003" ddgkkg2003@yahoo.com ddgkkg2003
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 9:04 am ((PST))

hi, im new to the list - i live in germany- was wondering if anyone
orders meat in bulk or how you obtain your meat here?

debbie
wuerzburg

Messages in this topic (3)
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7b. Re: new to list - any germans out there?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 9:33 am ((PST))

"ddgkkg2003" <ddgkkg2003@...> wrote:
>
> hi, im new to the list - i live in germany- was wondering if anyone
> orders meat in bulk or how you obtain your meat here?
>
> debbie
> wuerzburg
*****
I recommend you join Yahoogroups to access the Rawfeeding archives.
Use "Germany" as your search word. There are members on the list who
live in Germany but doing a message search might give you a leg up.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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7c. Re: new to list - any germans out there?
Posted by: "SLib700@aol.com" SLib700@aol.com annettedeutsch
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 1:32 pm ((PST))

Hallo Debbie! I'm German but I live in the US. Maybe you could contact your
nearest Schlachthof, sorry but I could not remember the English word for
it,or talk to a local butcher and ask if has any tips for you! Also contact a
Forest Ranger/Foerster and he might be able to help you out with game meat.
Annette.

**************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest
products.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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8.1. Re: Help!
Posted by: "kahonebay" kahonebay@yahoo.com kahonebay
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 9:25 am ((PST))

Carlye,
I switched all 3 of my dogs this year at the same time and all cold turkey. The 8-year old Golden had no problems with it and loves it just as much as the 3-year old German Shepherds! Good luck, you're on the right track, and ask as many questions as you need to, this is a GREAT group!

Kris
Mom to Molly (8-year old Golden) & Grace & Tucker (3-year old German Shepherd siblings)

Carlye <reidhaven@catahouligans.com> wrote:
Another one of my dogs is a ten year old JRT, and I've read that it
isn't a good idea to switch older dogs. Should I just be leaving her
on her kibble?

Messages in this topic (45)
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9. A warning about feeding in wood chips.
Posted by: "Maria" plava_93@yahoo.com plava_93
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 11:37 am ((PST))

My father is a wood turner and he does his work in the basement. He
mostly turns maple and in the mornings I take the dogs down there to
eat. They have never had problems before, Skip and Sally take there
food away from the wood shavings but even if I sweep a nice big spot
for Tessa takes the food right over to the shaving pile. She always
puked up a ball of the shavings but a few days ago she had a MAJOR
allergic reaction, her lips swill up, her skin was blood red and her
joints were swollen and painful. The night before that dad had turned
some Walnut wood and she had laid in it while eating. She also started
coughing that night.
I don't know if anyone else feeds their dogs in a wood shop but I
thought I'd let you all know. You can pass the warning on.
Thank you.
Maria

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10. Raw egg yolks not raw egg whites
Posted by: "Sai Simonson" saiczarina@comcast.net keikokat
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 12:48 pm ((PST))

I did not know one should separate them. Was informed today that raw
egg whites bond with the B's and make them unusable for dogs. I have
not yet done research myself but thought I would see what you guys have
found about raw egg whites.

Sai

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11. Squirrels and Rabbits
Posted by: "eclipseapbts" eclipseapbts@yahoo.com eclipseapbts
Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 1:31 pm ((PST))

I got an offer from a hunter, he wants to hunt squirrels and rabbits
but doesn't want to eat them. He offered them to me. Can I safely feed
squirrel? Any specific parts they shouldn't eat? Is there a certain
period of time I should keep them frozen? Disease risks?

Thanks
Cortney

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