[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12347

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: marrow bones
From: Giselle
1b. Re: marrow bones
From: gbongi1
1c. Re: marrow bones
From: johkemp

2a. Re: Fish and Game
From: carnesbill

3a. Re: Chicken skin question
From: sfed57
3b. Re: Chicken skin question
From: carnesbill
3c. Re: Chicken skin question
From: Sandee Lee
3d. Re: Chicken skin question
From: Jen S

4a. Re: A little leery on starting
From: sfed57
4b. Re: A little leery on starting
From: Jessica MacMillan
4c. Re: A little leery on starting
From: costrowski75

5a. Yikes --- Is it DETOX??
From: Dawn
5b. Re: Yikes --- Is it DETOX??
From: Casey Post
5c. Re: Yikes --- Is it DETOX??
From: costrowski75
5d. Re: Yikes --- Is it DETOX??
From: carnesbill

6a. Re: Puzzled by duration of loose stools
From: katkellm
6b. Re: Puzzled by duration of loose stools
From: carnesbill

7a. Re: How to stop him from traveling around the house with food
From: Sandee Lee

8.1. Re: Hello, new here
From: johkemp
8.2. Re: Hello, new here
From: johkemp

9.1. Re: Hello! I just joined.
From: johkemp

10.1. Re: New to Raw
From: johkemp

11a. Re: Having a Sheep Processed
From: johkemp

12. afraid to feed turkey necks
From: outcats4@aol.com

13. Wild Rabbit Organ
From: Susanne MacLeod

Messages
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1a. Re: marrow bones
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 11:51 am ((PST))

Hi, Tiffany!
Sorry, can't recommend marrow (soup, dog, recreational) bones.
These are very hard bones from a cow. Imagine how dense they have to be to
hold up an entire cow! They will crack or wear down a dog's teeth over time.
And, being bare, they have no redeeming qualities.

Beef bones are mostly non edible, but if you can find some rib bones in a
slab of 3-4 or some meaty neck bones not cut into small pieces, these will
make loverly chewies! Just offer when you want them to occupy themselves and
they can spend their time picking the meaty bits off and flossing. when the
bones are bare, time to toss them in the trash!

Dogs that are offered larger, more challenging portions for their meals
often don't need the extra chew time offered by the bony parts once grown,
but some busy dogs still do. Depending on your dog's size(s), I'd make
attempts to offer larger, more engaging portions to satisfy them.

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On Dec 5, 2007 2:05 PM, tiffany.contempopainting <tiffcurran@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi everyone. We have gotten some great advise here and the dogs are
> doing great now with their raw diet. We are still in the beginning stages
> though. I try to balance out their food over time. I was wondering if marrow
> bones are ok to give them to chew on. They don't have any meat so it
> wouldn't be a meal. They used to love rawhide until I found out how bad they
> are and took them. Just wondering if I could substitute them for the marrow
> bones or if it would cause an upset stomach. Thanks for all the advice.
> Tiffany
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (11)
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1b. Re: marrow bones
Posted by: "gbongi1" gbongi1@comcast.net gbongi1
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 12:24 pm ((PST))

Isabel I do feed these to my dog Only very very meaty ones though.
Once he starts gnawing on the bone I take it away.
I do believe he chipped a tooth on one but I cannot verify. Just be
careful.
~g~

Messages in this topic (11)
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1c. Re: marrow bones
Posted by: "johkemp" johkemp@yahoo.com.au johkemp
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 2:54 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ondine" <ondine_03@...> wrote:
>
> Is there a book or website out there that tells newbies EXACTLY
what to feel the puppy? This would be enormously helpful for us...
>
These are the links that I use fairly often and sent to people
thinking about a raw diet and what some more information on how to go
about it. The first article is very useful to send to the nay-sayers
and kibble feeders who will give you a hard time.

Good luck,

Jo

An article called 'Dogs are Carnivores"
http://www.dogtorj.net/id51.html
A feeding guide published by a vet who advocates raw feeding
http://www.rawmeatybones.com/diet/exp-di...
A website debunking some of the many myths regarding raw feeding and
bones.
http://rawfed.com/myths/

Messages in this topic (11)
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2a. Re: Fish and Game
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 12:24 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "gbongi1" <gbongi1@...> wrote:
>
> Are ther any game that on ewould not feed their dog??
> Also about fish.
> I catch White and yellow perch, tog, blues, and striper. Can I
> feed my dog these items whole?

Rule of thumb: If you would eat it, its ok to feed your dog.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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3a. Re: Chicken skin question
Posted by: "sfed57" sfed57@yahoo.ca sfed57
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 12:24 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jaygaughan" <jaygaughan@...> wrote:
>
>I used to take all the skin off the chicken when I first started, I
wasnt sure how the dogs would react to the new diet so I didnt want to
much too soon. They had no problem converting to raw at all so in no
time I wasnt trimming the skin at all, they get it how it is.
Shawna

Messages in this topic (6)
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3b. Re: Chicken skin question
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 12:24 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jaygaughan" <jaygaughan@...> wrote:
>
> What are your thoughts on chicken skin?

As long as stools are good, feed the backs the way you get them. Just
hand them to the dog. I have never had to do anything to them.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (6)
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3c. Re: Chicken skin question
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 4:37 pm ((PST))

Feed the skin and add some meat...backs are far too bony to be fed by
themselves.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "jaygaughan" <jaygaughan@yahoo.com>

I just read that chicken skin is considered part of the raw meat
portion of a raw diet.

Messages in this topic (6)
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3d. Re: Chicken skin question
Posted by: "Jen S" zordan@optonline.net sigp2301
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 4:48 pm ((PST))

I leave the skin on when I feed them, and I really only feed them in
the cases where I've got a bunch of stew meat or ground stuff and he's
not going to be getting any/enough bone otherwise. Often I will pack
the meat around a back or two (109 lb dog), and freeze it so it's
almost like an RMB.

JenZ and the Little Dog

Messages in this topic (6)
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4a. Re: A little leery on starting
Posted by: "sfed57" sfed57@yahoo.ca sfed57
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 12:24 pm ((PST))

Hi Kimmie,

I was also leary on starting the raw diet. I have two husky puppies, a
one year old and a 7 month old. My older girl had the runs from the
day I brought her home until the day I started them on a raw diet a few
months ago. My younger girl would throw up her food a few times a week
like yours until I started them on the raw diet. I had them on the
best quality "premium" kibble I could find and all I have to say is
switch to raw!!! They love it and no more digestion problems. It was
scary at first with all the myths about bones and salmonela and whatnot
but after I took the plunge I could never go back. My girls are
healthier and happier and thats whats most important, so keep reading
here like I did and ask lots of questions until that nervous feeling
goes away and you can try the best possible diet ever for your dog!
Shawna

Messages in this topic (6)
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4b. Re: A little leery on starting
Posted by: "Jessica MacMillan" spotted101@hotmail.com jessica.macmillan
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 12:24 pm ((PST))

Hey Kimmie -

I know most folks who feed raw do lots of reading and researching, playing for awhile and then take the plunge. I read for about 6 months, gave out some chicken wings and then the jumped in with both feet. It even took me a while - which is odd since my mom has been feeding raw with great success for several years now.

I finally bought a large bag of WHOLE chicken wings, a food processor and locked up my barrel of kibble (brand new bag too). I bought a few veggies and some ripened fruit, ground it up and fed wings and I was on my way.

I love it, the dogs are doing great and Simmie (my elder GSD) doesn't have to be put under to have her teeth cleaned.

A couple of notes:

1. Marrow bones can be very rich for some dogs and if you have a dog with a queasy stomach, I am not sure I would do marrows, especially with LOTS of fat on them.

2. Most dogs are grass eaters, even raw-fed dogs. not much you can do for that.

3. Stick to something very basic - one protein - most people start with chicken, either wings (my dogs are great chewers), carcasses, etc. Do a week or two of that and GRADUALLY add other sources.

Take your time, figure out what you want to do and go from there.

Good luck.

Jess M.
& The Shepherd Girls (who love their raw food)

_________________________________________________________________
Put your friends on the big screen with Windows Vista® + Windows Live™.
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/shop/specialoffers.mspx?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_CPC_MediaCtr_bigscreen_102007

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Messages in this topic (6)
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4c. Re: A little leery on starting
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 2:21 pm ((PST))

Jessica MacMillan <spotted101@...> wrote:
>> I finally bought a large bag of WHOLE chicken wings, a food
processor and locked up my barrel of kibble (brand new bag too). I
bought a few veggies and some ripened fruit, ground it up and fed wings
and I was on my way.
*****
You do know of course that while relying on chicken wings, food
processors, veggies, fruits and ground anything may be a charmingly
naive way to start feeding raw, it is not the easiest (I think that's
fairly obvious!) or most healthy, nor is it particularly appropriate.
I urge you--if you are still feeding this way--to toss the food
processor (or use it for human food), forget the vegetation and move to
larger and meatier--and whole--edible bones.

If you have not been on this list very long, I understand why you might
consider my recommendations distressing. But dogs have been wolves
longer than you've been feeding this ground up stuff. Your lovely
shepherds deserve to be fed like the wolves they are. Please browse
the archives and rethink what you're feeding.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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5a. Yikes --- Is it DETOX??
Posted by: "Dawn" dawnrin@yahoo.com dawnrin
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 1:56 pm ((PST))

Hi Everyone... I'm a newbie with a question........
My Berner has been on raw for about a month now and I'm hoping that
what is going on with him is detox. His skin has sores all over the
place (no itching, thank goodness) and he's lost tons of hair too.
Poor guy... I'm not giving up though. Anyone think it's detox besides
me??
Thanks!!!!

Dawn
Momma to Berners Tango (6 y.o.) and Rio (8 mo. old)

Messages in this topic (4)
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5b. Re: Yikes --- Is it DETOX??
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 1:58 pm ((PST))

>His skin has sores all over the
> place (no itching, thank goodness) and he's lost tons of hair too.
> Poor guy... I'm not giving up though. Anyone think it's detox besides
> me??

Nope. I would wonder if he's got ringworm or something, though...

Casey

Messages in this topic (4)
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5c. Re: Yikes --- Is it DETOX??
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 2:26 pm ((PST))

"Dawn" <dawnrin@...> wrote:>.
> Poor guy... I'm not giving up though. Anyone think it's detox besides
> me??
*****
I do not think it's detox. I don't think much if anything is ever
detox in the sense of dismissing it as a minor issue. I think there is
something wrong with your bud and you need to get on it. Time to see a
vet I think, or the medical professional of your choice.

Ringworm?
Mange?

Chris O

Messages in this topic (4)
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5d. Re: Yikes --- Is it DETOX??
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 5:01 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Dawn" <dawnrin@...> wrote:
>
> Anyone think it's detox besides me??

If there was a such thing as detox, it might be but since detox is a
mythical condition, it can't be. What is described by some as "detox"
is actually the body learning to digest something it has never seen
before. "Detox" means to rid the body of poisons or adictive
substances and this doesn't happen in switching dogs to raw.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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6a. Re: Puzzled by duration of loose stools
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 2:53 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mozookpr" <mozookpr@...> wrote:
. She is a Sheltie, coming up on 5
> months old. She eats her meals with great gusto, two a day, and the
> amount of intake is right on target for her estimated adult weight.

Hi Wendy,
I would, as Andrea suggested, remove the skin and fat from the chicken
for now and divide the amount of food you are feeding into 3 meals
instead of 2. Its possible that at 5 months she is just not ready to
handle that amount of food twice a day. Also, i know that you are
feeding her the correct amount for her projected adult weight, but it
is possible that you might be overfeeding her. She might grow up to
be slightly smaller than breed standard, or she, as an individual,
just might not require that much food. So, you could also try cutting
the amount you feed by a smidgen. KathyM

Messages in this topic (4)
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6b. Re: Puzzled by duration of loose stools
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 5:00 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mozookpr" <mozookpr@...> wrote:
>
> A fecal came back positive for worms
> (round and I forget what other kind.) She has been treated
> for that, so should be parasite-free.

I would have her re-tested just to be sure they are gone.

> Is this a normal period of adjustment that will correct itself?

If the problem is diet related, it should correct itself very soon.
I have some doubts that it is diet related.

> Should I increase bone?

Yes

> Increase meat?

No

> Or should I try smaller, more frequent meals?

Yes, definately.

> She is currently getting about one chicken quarter a
> day, divided into two meals.

That sounds a little heavy to me. I would lighten up some.

> The few days, she would eat a quarter
> all at once, and then more for the smaller second meal, but has
> slowed down a bit since then.

Don't allow her to do that. If she eats a whole quarter, no more
food for at least 24 hours.

> Could it be that she is the odd dog that
> just can't tolerate chicken?

It's possible but I doubt it.

> It just seems like there are so many variables to
> consider, whilst I tear out my hair trying to FIX this.

There are many variables but you should deal with all of them at
once. Feed less, feed more bone, check her for parasites again,
skin the chicken pieces. If no improvement in 2 weeks, try another
protein source. If no improvement in another two weeks, I'm
convinced it's not a diet problem, rather a body part that isn't
working correctly.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (4)
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7a. Re: How to stop him from traveling around the house with food
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 4:45 pm ((PST))

Jay,

I do realize many large breed dogs eat from elevated stands and before going
raw, I used them myself.
However when feeding appropriately sized raw foods, it's not going to be
easy or comfortable for him to stand over a bowl to eat an entire chicken, a
turkey half, a pork roast, beef brisket, racks of ribs, etc. This takes a
while and is much more comfortable for the dog to have a place to lay down
and leisurely enjoy his meal.
Unless you are feeding ground or tiny food, a bowl isn't going to work very
well.

I'm sure as a Dane owner, you are aware of the bloat studies which indicated
dogs fed from elevated stands bloated at a greater rate than those who were
not?

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "jaygaughan" <jaygaughan@yahoo.com>
As for eating at an elevated feeding stand. He, just like my other
Danes will.
This is just like having my children stay in the kitchen and eat,
it's not an option.
With praise and or immediate correction my dogs listen very well and
obey all commands. They live to please us. You just need to give them
the tools to do so.

Lying down while eating isn't bad. For a dog the size of a Dane
trying to swallow while your head is pointed down at the floor isn't
easy. Stands help in many ways. I know many Danes that eat this way.

Messages in this topic (11)
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8.1. Re: Hello, new here
Posted by: "johkemp" johkemp@yahoo.com.au johkemp
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 4:47 pm ((PST))

Welcome to the group and a whole new world of feeding!!

The first link is to Tom Lonsdale's feeding guide for dogs and cats.
From that you can go to his Raw Meaty Bones site.

Good luck,

Jo

A feeding guide published by a vet who advocates raw feeding
http://www.rawmeatybones.com/diet/exp-di...
A website debunking some of the many myths regarding raw feeding and
bones.
http://rawfed.com/myths/

Messages in this topic (46)
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8.2. Re: Hello, new here
Posted by: "johkemp" johkemp@yahoo.com.au johkemp
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 4:48 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, rottinginblood@... wrote:
>
> i just have a slight question.....me and my boyfriend will be
looking to adopt older cats (like 5+(the ones that NO one seems to
want they all want the little kittens! ugh! id be afraid of stepping
on it lol!) but um....if the cats 12 yrs old how would you manage to
switch them?
>

Hi Jesse

It depends on the cat. Our three were switched when we brought home
our new pup 12 months ago although they have always had some raw -
wings, necks, offcuts etc. My oldest girl, now 15, had no issues and
adapted straight away. She crunches through bones and now finishes
her meals rather than walking away halfway through. She also stopped
vomitting and has put on much needed weight. The seven year old boy
took longer and still prefers ground over bones. The two year old
girl was the most stubborn. She still gets some Innova biscuits as
she was refusing to eat and started breaking into the neighbour's
house to steal food there!!

Good luck,

Jo
>

Messages in this topic (46)
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9.1. Re: Hello! I just joined.
Posted by: "johkemp" johkemp@yahoo.com.au johkemp
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 4:48 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Carole Poh" <carole@...> wrote:
>

> She is currently coming to 4 months old and I've been feeding her 1
chicken neck & back and 1 wing per meal. Is that too little cos she
always seems hungry. Sometimes I throw in 1 more chicken back and
she just poohs more. I feed her 2 to 3 times a day.
>
> According to Dr Tom Lonsdale's article, it's 2-3% of the body
weight. She weighs about 14 kg now.
>
> Would appreciate some advise.
>

Hi Carol,

The 2-3% is of expected ADULT weight - pups need this amount too,
just split over several meals. It does sound as if you are feeding
too much bone and too small pieces - try chicken quarters with the
wing or drumstick attached rather than just wings and necks. Are you
feeding any offal? This is a vital part of a raw eating plan - the
general recommended ratio is about 80:10:10 of meat:edible
bone:offal. This is over a week or two not every day.

Good luck and welcome to the raw side.

Jo

Messages in this topic (46)
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10.1. Re: New to Raw
Posted by: "johkemp" johkemp@yahoo.com.au johkemp
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 4:48 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Barbara G. Freeman-Rattie"
<RkyMtnHrse@...> wrote:
>

>
> 1. What does RMB's stand for?
Raw Meaty Bones
> 2. Where do you purchase these pre-packaged meats?
Do you mean pre-made patties? Then the answer is 'I don't'. I buy
at the supermarket, butcher, food markets and ethnic stores.
> 3. Many whom have posted have a large amount of dogs - I can't
imagine being able to afford buying raw meats at the grocery store;
do you recommend butchers?
Buy in bulk or on sale - the marked down meat with a day or two
fridge life is fine - It usually goes into the freezer anyway.
> 4. I have 3 Toy Fox Terriers and 2 Red Heelers (cattle dogs)
and caring for 2 adult Rot's for my brother; I have no concerns the
big guys can handle chicken halves and the like but the little guys,
should I give them drumsticks and thighs or just wings and cut up
whole chickens?
Once they get used to it they will be crunching through those bones.
> 5. Have never seen hearts for sale in a market; and not priced
beef tongue - do any of you purchase at a slaughter house?
Try the deli section or an ethnic market - great source of those out
of the ordinary foods.
> 6. Does anyone feed a combination of raw and commercial dog
food?
Only for one very stubborn cat - the other 2 and the dog eat raw
> 7. Finally, what vaccinations can be illuminated if dogs are
on a 100% raw diet? I would think Heartworm med's and rabies shots
would still be necessary, no?
This is a very topical subject - some people don't vaccinate at all,
some do the full spectrum - only you can decide this one.
>
>
I hope this helps,

Jo

Messages in this topic (59)
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11a. Re: Having a Sheep Processed
Posted by: "johkemp" johkemp@yahoo.com.au johkemp
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 4:48 pm ((PST))

Mutton and hogget is great for curries too!!

I would have thought that shanks would be too hard for most dogs. What
do others think?

Jo

Messages in this topic (3)
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12. afraid to feed turkey necks
Posted by: "outcats4@aol.com" outcats4@aol.com barb5ducks
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 4:48 pm ((PST))

Hi, I did a search on the list about turkey necks, but couldnt find much
about not giving them. Im concerned about feeding them to my dog. Are they
safe ? He isnt a gulper, but there just seems to be so many bones in them. Has
anyone had any problems with turkey necks?
Thanks for your help,
Barb

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Messages in this topic (1)
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13. Wild Rabbit Organ
Posted by: "Susanne MacLeod" suzmacleod@rogers.com skull25ca
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 5:00 pm ((PST))

Evening everyone! I had a quick question...I am flying home to visit
my folks, and my Dad ordered 6 wild rabbit from the guy down the
street. He skins them and guts them....I was thinking about asking him
to save some of the organs for me...is there anything I should stay
away from? These are wild snow rabbits.
Suz Kate and Joey

Messages in this topic (1)
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