[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12343

There are 16 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: frozen/fresh
From: vanevery0

2.1. Re: Salmon Oil
From: Yasuko herron
2.2. Re: Salmon Oil
From: Sandee Lee
2.3. Re: Salmon Oil
From: costrowski75

3a. Re: Concerned: throwing up chicken bone shards... what's going on?
From: carnesbill

4a. Re: certain meats cause panting
From: vanevery0

5a. Re: DEER MEAT, whats cws?
From: jmwise80
5b. Re: DEER MEAT, whats cws?
From: jmwise80
5c. Re: DEER MEAT, whats cws?
From: Candee Brey

6a. Re: my dog isn't eating raw
From: Yasuko herron

7a. Re: evils of cooked meat
From: costrowski75

8a. Re: Question about freezer burned meat.
From: Sandee Lee
8b. Re: Question about freezer burned meat.
From: costrowski75

9a. Feeding organs;do we need to washthem before feeding???
From: Yasuko herron
9b. Re: Feeding organs;do we need to washthem before feeding???
From: Sandee Lee

10a. Re: types of places to buy raw locally
From: j2dope17

Messages
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1a. Re: frozen/fresh
Posted by: "vanevery0" bvanevery@gmail.com vanevery0
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 8:09 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Cathy Richmond" <batcathy@...> wrote:
>
> I had read that
> if we as humans drink cold with our meals it takes longer for
> digestion to begin.

It may very well be true.

> It was based on studies why oriental peoples have less stomach
> issues as they always start with hot drink or hot soup.

The dominant issue in Western ailments is surely all the processed
foods. If the study didn't control for that, I wouldn't put any stock
in it.

Similarly, the dominant issue in dog ailments is kibble. Same
processing that's bad for them is bad for us. We shouldn't consider
dog evidence as the only thing we look at. Human evidence about the
evils of processed foods is plentiful.

Cheers,
Brandon Van Every

Messages in this topic (6)
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2.1. Re: Salmon Oil
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 8:09 pm ((PST))

> Salmon oil is very expensive here (Taiwan). Would you say it is necessary?

I would not say necessary but diet without it maybe high in omega6 and low in omega3.
so, to give enough omega 3,I give Fish body oil(oil is from sardine,herring,anchovi..) to bump up the omega3 level in diet.

If you don't give fish body oil,then,you can feed omega3 rich fish such as Jack Mackerral,Herring,Salmon,Anchovi and then feed grassfed animals.Grassfed animalsare high in omega 3 unlike grainfed animals,but i cannot afford to do these so,I give fish body oil.

You can give Salmon oil (oil from SAlmon) instead of fish body oil.

You need to be careful about ingredients in fish oil too.At GNC,I saw fish body oil that has Tuna and Cod in it.I do not think I would buy it. Cod give not only Vitamin A but also vitamin D and too much of those are not good. They would not flash out in urine but stored in body.
as for tuna,I am not sure why they had it in ingredient but I prefer one with known omega3 rich fish oil,so,I would not buy anyway.

>"Salmon" oil is surely pointless. "Fish" oil is what you need.

I think both are ok.It is just that ingredients are different.

>For instance, cod liver oil is readily available at most pharmacies in the USA.

I never buy cod liver oil. It primarily gives vitamin AD and not main for omega3.

>Flax is high in plant-based ALA.
>I read somewhere that dogs can't convert this into a usable omega-3,
yes,you are right. Dog digest animal-base anything better than plant base anything.

>I have no idea what a "correct" dose of fish oil for my 65 lb. dog is,so for now I've stopped giving him any.

1000mg fish oil per 20lb body weight for maintenance level and for theraputic use,1 capsule per 10lb body weight. So..if you do maintenance level then,you give 3 cap daily.
If theraputic use,then,give 6-7 cap daily.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (133)
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2.2. Re: Salmon Oil
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 8:23 pm ((PST))

Salmon and fish oil are not the same as cod liver oil. If your dogs are
experiencing skin problems, it could be either a lack of the omega 3s or too
much of the fat soluble vitamins from the cod liver oil. Or inappropriate
diet...not quite sure exactly what you are feeding!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "vanevery0" <bvanevery@gmail.com>

The animal-based Omega-3's that you're after are DHA and EPA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega-3_fatty_acid#Fish
There are lotsa kinds of fish that have them, so "Salmon" oil is
surely pointless. "Fish" oil is what you need. For instance, cod
liver oil is readily available at most pharmacies in the USA. An
older generation used to take it for all manner of ailments, so it is
still sold to the geriatrics.

It is possible to overdose your dog, or a human, on vitamins that are
not water-soluble. For instance, Vitamin A.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retinol#Retinoid_overdose_.28toxicity.29
I have no idea what a "correct" dose of fish oil for my 65 lb. dog is,
so for now I've stopped giving him any.

Do DHA and EPA omega-3's have beneficial effects for your dog? I'm
not sure. Anecdotally, my dog's coat might be shinier and less itchy,
but I really can't tell. It's wintertime in the USA now, so there's a
lot of dry heat in the house. His coat is kinda dry lately, but
there's an obvious reason for it.

My dog has some kind of allergy. His ears are irritated and his anal
glands need to be expressed too often. Dry coat could be due to
allergy also, or it could just be the heat in the house. My vet has
suggested that it could be a food allergy. So, I'm trying to do a
dietary purge / simplification to see if that helps him. That's what
brought me to the raw feeding list. As part that purge, I stopped
giving him the cod liver oil, because its actual effects on him are
unknown. For all I know, it could be part of the problem. Either
because cod liver oil happens to be bad for him, or *the particular*
cod liver oil I gave him is contaminated with something, or I'm just
giving him too much of it, who knows. Right now I don't want any
variables.

Messages in this topic (133)
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2.3. Re: Salmon Oil
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 9:18 pm ((PST))

"vanevery0" <bvanevery@...> wrote:
> The animal-based Omega-3's that you're after are DHA and EPA.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega-3_fatty_acid#Fish
> There are lotsa kinds of fish that have them, so "Salmon" oil is
> surely pointless. "Fish" oil is what you need. For instance, cod
> liver oil is readily available at most pharmacies in the USA. An
> older generation used to take it for all manner of ailments, so it
is
> still sold to the geriatrics.
*****
You may be informed but your application of information is askew. It
would be inappropriate to feed cod liver oil to a dog unless the dog
was seriously deficient in vitamin A and vitamin D. Since this is
rarely if ever the case, feeding a dog CLO is at best redundant and
at its worst a way to incease beyond natural levels vitamins A and
D. That geriatrics choose to take it is irrelevant to the needs of
our dogs. My guess is--and it's only a guess--the general American
desire for medications of all sorts is not so prevalent in the rest
of the world. It may be that in other parts of the world CLO is not
a popularly recommended cure for what ails ya.

> Flax is high in plant-based ALA.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega-3_fatty_acid#Flax
> I read somewhere that dogs can't convert this into a usable omega-3,
> i.e. dogs aren't plant eaters and you shouldn't be feeding a
> plant-based omega-3 to your dog. But I can't find a reference for
> that right now.
*****
No plant-based oil is especially useful internally to a dog. Or a
cat. Or a ferret. Flaxseed oil with alpha-linolenic acid precursor
converts with great expense of energy to linolenic acid (Omega 3).
It is an inefficient source of Omega 3, but it is a highly profitable
one. It's not likely to be eliminated from a dog's diet until a.
people stop trying to feed dogs what people eat (even if the people
shouldn't be eating it either) and b. the financial benefits of FSO
can be met by an animal-based oil.

> > I would be very careful about where your fish oil comes from.
*****
Most fish body oil products (salmon or mixed or menhaden or herring)
test out pretty well. There's quite a bit of hoopla from various
vendors but when you get past the marketing scare tactics, there are
plenty of products available. Here's a good website to use in making
informed an choice:
http://www.oceansalive.org/eat.cfm?subnav=fishoil&sort=Company

> It is possible to overdose your dog, or a human, on vitamins that
are
> not water-soluble. For instance, Vitamin A.
>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retinol#Retinoid_overdose_.28toxicity.29
> I have no idea what a "correct" dose of fish oil for my 65 lb. dog
is,
> so for now I've stopped giving him any.
*****
Fish body oil is not likely to be overdosed; if there is any concern
it is perhaps that significant levels shortly before surgery may
(MAY) result in slower blood clot time, but this remains
speculative. The common therapeutic recommendation of 1000mg
(containing at least 180mg EPA and 120mg DHA) per 10 pounds of dog is
not likely to be an "excessive" dose.

Fish BODY oil does not deliver vitamin A, nor D. It is only LIVER
oil that contains these and it is LIVER oil that is not recommended
except in small amounts in specific situations.

> Do DHA and EPA omega-3's have beneficial effects for your dog? I'm
> not sure. Anecdotally, my dog's coat might be shinier and less
itchy,
> but I really can't tell.
*****
The character of the skin and coat is of much less importance than
the character of the dog's immune system (which will typically reveal
itself though in healthy skin and coat). And that is what DHA and
EPA affect (especially DHA). Omega 3s reduce inflammation and
support neurological development; supplemental O3 serves to reduce
the dominance of Omega 6 in the diet; and it is excessive Omega 6
that is implicated in heart disease.

The goal of supplemental O3 is not to replace O6 but rather to get
the ratio of 6 to 3 back to a natural--healthy--balance. In a diet
based on prey that ate a diet appropriate to its species, the ratio
of 6 to 3 is already in balance. The alternative to supplementing
with O3 is to feed food that's naturally higher in O3.

I think you are overly complicating an not-terribly complex issue.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (133)
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3a. Re: Concerned: throwing up chicken bone shards... what's going on?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 8:09 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> Tiffany,
>
> Nutrigest is a probiotic. I don't see any ingredients that
> would assist in
> digestion of meat and fat.

I'm with Sandee on this. The "Nutrigest" MAY be causing the
problem. I would stop it immediately and see if he doesn't do
better in a day or two. I don't think he needs any help in
digesting the food you are feeding. I think his body just need a
little more time to adjust to real food.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (7)
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4a. Re: certain meats cause panting
Posted by: "vanevery0" bvanevery@gmail.com vanevery0
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 8:09 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "linoleum5017" <linoleum5017@...>
wrote:
>
> My dog has the same reaction, only it is to goat! It's not
> something
> that can be fed in small portions, as a leg is a leg, a shoulder a
> shoulder.

Two words: meat cleaver.

> I've just resolved not to buy any more.

Good idea. Really, if even a small quantity of some food induces a
bad reaction, what other conclusion can there be?

> Pork though, gee,
> it is indeed very cheap compared to everything else except chicken
> where I come from.

You get what you pay for. I bought my dog some raw beef ribs from
Wal-Mart. Over the course of a few days, doing controlled experiments
with those and other foods, I proved to my satisfaction that they
caused him to consistently throw up. My theory is there's some
additive in that Wal-Mart meat that maybe I can tolerate, but he
can't. And it's probably not good for me either. And now, with
Wal-Mart's ignoble China connection, I'd be *really* careful about
where anything comes from before buying it.

> Maybe some tolerance could be built up?

If your kid was up all night sweating from something he ate, you'd
take him to the emergency ward. I don't know what the symptoms of a
nut allergy are, but people die from them.

Cheers,
Brandon Van Every

Messages in this topic (11)
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5a. Re: DEER MEAT, whats cws?
Posted by: "jmwise80" jmwise80@yahoo.com jmwise80
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 8:29 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Michelle R <crested_dog8@...> wrote:
>
> whats cws?

*****I think they mean CWD. Chronic wasting disease. It is a
neurological disease that can affect deer. Dogs are not known to get
this disease.

Michael Wise

Messages in this topic (4)
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5b. Re: DEER MEAT, whats cws?
Posted by: "jmwise80" jmwise80@yahoo.com jmwise80
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 8:31 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Michelle R <crested_dog8@...> wrote:
>
> whats cws?

*****I think they mean CWD. Chronic wasting disease. It is a
neurological disease that can affect deer. Dogs are not known to get
this disease.

Michael Wise

Messages in this topic (4)
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5c. Re: DEER MEAT, whats cws?
Posted by: "Candee Brey" candee@netnet.net candeeloubrey
Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 5:42 am ((PST))

CWS
Chronic Waste Syndrome
Mad Cow Disease.

Candee

On Dec 3, 2007, at 8:51 PM, Michelle R wrote:

> whats cws?
>
> Michelle Radcliff
> Mengshi Chinese Cresteds
> http://www.geocities.com/crested_dog8/mengshihome.html
>
> __________________________________________________________
> Be a better friend, newshound, and
> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://
> mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (4)
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6a. Re: my dog isn't eating raw
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 8:32 pm ((PST))

>I strongly suspect that rendering processes are the source of his allergies. It's not grain, there's no grain in the kibble I was giving him. I bet "salmon meal" is the culprit.

Well,I doubt it. I was wondering how kibble is made if grain was not used;the binder.

so,with curiousity,I lookedfor EVO ingredients,here are what i found.

The potato!! THat will be the binder of kibble. They seem to use bunch of veg/fruits,garlic,cottage cheese etc instead of grain.That is something I would doubt for allegy thing.and tonz and tonz of vitamins.

Kibble is not made for indivisual dog's need and,vitamin they spray is for some dogs,maybe too little,for some dogs,way too much.THat is another reason some dogs simply cannot do good on kibble.

yassy

=========

Innova Evo Red Meat Formula Dry Dog Food
EVO Red Meat - Your first choice when you can't feed raw. It isn't always possible to feed your dog a raw diet. But now there is a convenient, nutritionally satisfactory option that you could turn to substitute for raw feeding.

EVO - The FIRST dry dog food made with no grain. In order to more closely match the nutritional content of feeding a raw diet - high protein & low carbohydrate - no grain were used in the making of Evo. Only the highest quality beef, lamb, buffalo, and venison - including the meat, cartilage, fat, bone, and connective tissue are used. Whole fruits and vegetables are added to supply important health promoting nutrients that dogs would find foraging for food. Live, naturally occuring microorganisms are gently sprayed on after the cooling process.
Ingredients: Beef, Beef Meal, Lamb Meal, Potatoes, Egg, Sunflower Oil, Buffalo, Lamb, Venison, Beef Cartilage, Natural Flavors, Herring Oil, Apples, Carrots, Garlic, Tomatoes, Potassium Chloride, Potassium Sulfate, Cottage Cheese
Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D Supplement, Beta Carotene, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Biotin, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid) Minerals (Calcium Carbonate, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Calcium Iodate), Dried Chicory Root, Ascorbic Acid, Direct Fed Microbials (Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus Fermentation Product Dried Lactobacillus casei Fermentation Product, Dried Bifidobacterium thermophilum Fermentation Product, Dried Enterococcus faecium Fermentation Product), Lecithin, Rosemary Extract Direct Fed Microbials: (Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus casei, Bifidobacterium thermophilum, Enterococcus faecium in equal amounts)

Guaranteed Analysis:

Calorie Content:
Metabolizable Energy - Calculated
4,035 kcal/kg
487 kcal/cup
1 cup = 4.26 oz (121 g)

Crude Protein (minimum):42.0%
Crude Fat (minimum):22.0%
Crude Fiber (maximum):2.5%
Moisture (maximum):10.0%
Linoleic Acid (minimum):1.2%
Vitamin E (minimum):250 IU/kg
Omega-3 Fatty acids* (minimum):0.40%
Total Microorganisms* (minimum):.90,000,000 CFU/LB

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Messages in this topic (16)
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7a. Re: evils of cooked meat
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 8:39 pm ((PST))

"vanevery0" <bvanevery@...> wrote:
>> I'll add my own complicating question: we know that modern,
> man-polluted environments *suck*. How does that affect what's a good
> eating pattern in the wild nowadays? Environments have sucked pretty
> much since we've been measuring wild animal health. Maybe you win if
> you manage to avoid whatever part of the body holds the most mercury.
> Anyways, who says the wild animals we pay attention to are winning?
> Maybe various populations die sooner rather than later, just living
> long enough to reproduce and propagate the species.
*****
What's you point, Brandon?
Chris O

Messages in this topic (16)
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8a. Re: Question about freezer burned meat.
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 8:42 pm ((PST))

Not true.....Dogs can experience digestive upsets from new food, too much
food, too much fat, etc...this does not mean the food isn't appropriate.
It's mainly operator error. Stools change depending upon what is fed. And
of course cooked bones are never appropriate so that doesn't even enter into
the equation.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "vanevery0" <bvanevery@gmail.com>

If your dog always gets diarrhea from eating something, that's a sign
that your dog shouldn't be eating it. It means its innards are being
messed up a lot, i.e. you're doing damage. For this reason, my dog
never gets cooked beef short ribs that have been chopped by a meat
cleaver. They are too sharp in his digestive tract, they would always
give him diarrhea. I'd see the little square chips come out his other
end. Never had any problem with large cooked beef knuckle or shin
bones that he has to gnaw on, they are not sharp. A cooked beef bone
is theoretically not supposed to be bad for a dog, but my experience
is that if the bone is sharply cut, it's a problem. So no cooked
T-bones for him either. He's doing fine with raw chicken bones lately.

I've given my dog all kinds of human food, just so he can experience
the flavor of life. If he vomits or has diarrhea, he doesn't get it
anymore. If it doesn't go all the way through him "clean" then as far
as I'm concerned it's not food.

Messages in this topic (6)
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8b. Re: Question about freezer burned meat.
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 9:37 pm ((PST))

"vanevery0" <bvanevery@...> wrote:
> So, perfectly edible, human grade meat gives your dog diarrhea. To
> such a dog, you plan to give 10-year old "crap meat" that probably
has
> no nutritional value whatsoever. What are you thinking? Haven't
you
> ever gotten the runs from eating a can of tuna? If the meat is low
> quality it's low quality, don't "save" it for your dog. I have no
> idea when meat goes bad but c'mon, 10 years??
*****
Brandon if you don't want to feed it, fine; she may not want to feed
it upon investigation either. But she's there and you're not. So
she should take a look-see and if it's a mess, she give it a
pasadena. It's worth a gander.
>

> If your dog always gets diarrhea from eating something, that's a
sign
> that your dog shouldn't be eating it.
*****
Bosh. First we have to determine if the dog has diarrhea or loose
stools. Second we have to look at what the dog is being fed, how
long, how much. Third we have to look at what else may be going on
with the dog. While I agree that discretion is the better part of
valor, I think your abrupt evaluation is a bit hasty.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (6)
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9a. Feeding organs;do we need to washthem before feeding???
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 9:43 pm ((PST))

I was browsing through other list'spost and found interesting post that says reason why dog does not eat organs are throughly not washed. What do you say?

Thislady suggested "If you try kidney, be sure to soak it in several changes of water to
get any entrained urine out of it."

Hmm,I know my dog hates pork liver but sheeats it fine if mixed with Egg and I have never washed throughly or soaking before feeding but she looks ok,no health hazard..

What are your thoughts about this ?Do you wash organs before feeding?

I never thought about kidney and urine,but isit really needed for dogs?

yassy

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Messages in this topic (2)
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9b. Re: Feeding organs;do we need to washthem before feeding???
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 9:51 pm ((PST))

Ask her how wolves wash organs before they eat them!

I think it's nonsense. I do have one dog who doesn't like pork organs but
it doesn't make any difference whether they are washed or not. He doesn't
like the flavor and won't eat them. He loves other species organs,
unwashed!

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Yasuko herron" <sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com>

> I was browsing through other list'spost and found interesting post that
says reason why dog does not eat organs are throughly not washed. What do
you say?
>
> Thislady suggested "If you try kidney, be sure to soak it in several
changes of water to
> get any entrained urine out of it."
>
> Hmm,I know my dog hates pork liver but sheeats it fine if mixed with Egg
and I have never washed throughly or soaking before feeding but she looks
ok,no health hazard..
>
> What are your thoughts about this ?Do you wash organs before feeding?

Messages in this topic (2)
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10a. Re: types of places to buy raw locally
Posted by: "j2dope17" j2dope17@yahoo.com j2dope17
Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 5:43 am ((PST))

MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS!

meg_helmes wrote:
>
> Hello Joe!
> (& anyone else living in NY from Buffalo to Rochester to Syracuse):
>
> One great way to get a good variety of meat and cheaper bulk prices
is
> to join a co-op. Check out WNYRaw on yahoo groups
> http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/WNYRaw/

Thanks meg thats a great Idea my family lives in rochester and I am
out there quit a bit, thanks for the info I will check it out!!

Messages in this topic (5)
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