[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12333

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Seasoned pork
From: Mary Tinder

2a. Re: Starving to death...
From: jackie
2b. Re: Starving to death...
From: costrowski75
2c. Re: Starving to death...
From: costrowski75
2d. Maybe not starving, but probably hungry
From: mozookpr
2e. Re: Starving to death...
From: Monica A. Joy

3a. Re: Dinky
From: John and Jeni Blackmon
3b. Re: Dinky
From: costrowski75

4a. Salt needs with raw feeding
From: cleone4100
4b. Re: Salt needs with raw feeding
From: carnesbill

5a. Re: Meaty deer bone supply in Mont. Co. Md.
From: Sylvia Tetzlaff

6a. Re: Question about Live animal markets (sanitary?)
From: John and Jeni Blackmon
6b. Re: Question about Live animal markets (sanitary?)
From: carnesbill
6c. Re: Question about Live animal markets (sanitary?)
From: Elie

7. Re: new to group - Hello!
From: Michael Moore

8a. Re: Anal Glands
From: carnesbill
8b. Re: Anal Glands
From: paula.0666

9a. Re: High Volume Treats
From: carnesbill

10a. Re: Bad Pork??
From: carnesbill

11a. Re: what should i buy
From: costrowski75

12a. Re: Mixing veggies with meat
From: costrowski75

13a. will too much bone cause the runs?
From: costrowski75

14a. ADMIIN/Re: High Volume Treats
From: costrowski75

15.1. Re: Green Tripe
From: costrowski75

16a. Re: Need to wash the scraps from butcher?
From: costrowski75

Messages
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1a. Re: Seasoned pork
Posted by: "Mary Tinder" mtinder@tinderco.com mmmaryt
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:08 pm ((PST))

I could not bring myself to use the one puffy bagged pork roast.
While I'm sure the dogs would have loved it I didn't want it to explode
in my face upon opening.

For stuff like this, are we wearing gloves? I've not so far but just
wonder how more experienced raw feeders "handle" it. I'm really
getting to be quite the cave woman, breaking up a carcass with my bare
hands. A good soap and water washing should do right? I don't bring
it into the kitchen so no worries there.

Mary T

> But wonder a bit about the those pork roasts. Bag is
> puffy.

Messages in this topic (8)
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2a. Re: Starving to death...
Posted by: "jackie" jackiehale1@bellsouth.net jackieoscar2000
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:08 pm ((PST))

> Full--satiety--is a great feeling. Depending on the size of your
dogs,
> there are a number of easy ways to feed Big Food from time to
time.
>
> What have you been feeding to what size dogs?
> Chris O
>
Now, this is going to sound like very little, but:

1. Frankie- 5 yr old, 60ish pound mixed breed-very, very easy
keeper, can survive on air. He gets 1/3 ground meat, 1 egg in the am
and 1/2 turkey neck or the large part of a chicken quarter at night.
He needed to loose weight-he is in agility and needs to loose
alittle more.

2. Joey-60ish pound mixed breed, Frankie's littermate-not as easy a
keeper, same in the am and a full chicken quarter or 3/4 turkey neck
at night. He does not need to loose any more weight

3. Sundae-35 pound mix, 9 months old. He gets 1/2 lb gound meat
and 1 egg in the am and large chicken drumstick or 1/2 turkey neck
at night. He is about right

4. Luke-2 year old Rot/Lab mix 73 pounds. Easy keeper, 1/2 lb
ground meat and 1 egg in am and full chicken quarter or full turkey
neck at night. He does not need to loose any more weight.

Also, the occasional liver/heart, etc. What would you feed these
guys if I were to feed a big, complicated meal? Like a full roast?
Big hunks of meat? Or just a bigger serving of what I already feed
1 night, then lighter the next day? Or, keep what I am doing and
ignore their pitiful pleas? I could do that...

Thanks!
Jackie Hale

Messages in this topic (10)
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2b. Re: Starving to death...
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:01 pm ((PST))

"jackie" <jackiehale1@...> wrote:
>> Now, this is going to sound like very little, but:
*****
It is little. Ground meats offer NO satisfaction. Half turkey necks
are hardly worth the effort to cut in half. A chicken thigh
(the "large part of the leg quarter") provides no energy.

You really really really should rethink how you offer food. Stop
thinking day by day: even if you were to feed small one day so that
you could feed a whole turkey neck (such extravagance!) the next,
you'd be opening up opportunities. How about nixing the ground meat
and egg meal entirely, and moving to one meal a day? Strikes me that
the ground meat and egg meal is a holdover from previous veggie
days.

Also, the occasional liver/heart,
*****
Liver can be occasional. Heart deserves to figure prominently in
their menu. Heart is fed as muscle meat, not organ. Lose the ground
meat, feed more heart!

What would you feed these
> guys if I were to feed a big, complicated meal? Like a full
roast?
> Big hunks of meat? Or just a bigger serving of what I already feed
> 1 night, then lighter the next day?
*****
These are good ideas. Cut loose from the rigid formula you have
created. You are feeding your dogs like they're small and they're
not.

Whether you feed once a day or you feed varied small and big (or even
no-so big) meals, give the kids a chance to wrestle with their
meals. You do not have to feed two meals a day, you do not have to
feed a meat meal and a RMB meal. You can offer a pork roast for
example and collect it up and feed it again and then if there's
something left, do it again.

Or, keep what I am doing and
> ignore their pitiful pleas? I could do that...
*****
Well, IMO you should ignore their pitiful pleas regardless of how you
feed, but I really don't think continuing as you are is doing them
any favors.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (10)
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2c. Re: Starving to death...
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:07 pm ((PST))

"costrowski75" <Chriso75@...> wrote:
>A chicken thigh
> (the "large part of the leg quarter") provides no energy.
*****
Oh duh.
This should have been "requires no energy" but started out as "provides
no challenge" and got lost. Sorry.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (10)
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2d. Maybe not starving, but probably hungry
Posted by: "mozookpr" mozookpr@yahoo.com mozookpr
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:08 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jackie" <jackiehale1@...> wrote:
>
> >
> Now, this is going to sound like very little, but:
>

It sure does! 2-4% of body weight. Consider investing in a kitchen
scale. I give my Pomeranian chicken quarters. He doesn't finish them
at a sitting, or even a day, and I put leftovers away for the next
meal, but it does give him something to work on. My Sheltie could
polish off most of the meals you have described in about five minutes
and still want more, and she is a 20 lb. puppy.

If your dogs act hungry, they probably ARE, on those rations.

Wendy

Messages in this topic (10)
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2e. Re: Starving to death...
Posted by: "Monica A. Joy" imajoy@hughes.net imajoy2003
Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:23 am ((PST))

Hi Jackie,
My two Labs & two Std Poodles were notorious for counter surfing and trash dumping. I started feeding them once a day (I've been feeding Raw since June '07) like Andrea suggested and then skip a meal or day and mixing it up and now I can go in the kitchen without everyone following me.

I feel a little guilty on the day I'm not feeding them or when I'm skipping a meal but they don't seem to mind or care much. They come in after chores and if I'm not feeding them they go and lay down like they normally would.

Good Luck,

Monica in Michigan

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Messages in this topic (10)
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3a. Re: Dinky
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:09 pm ((PST))

Cathy,
I never have fasted my dogs, if they needed to get sick, I would rather they have something in them than not, JMO. But if she only eats little bits, the ground meat would probable be fine, until you get the turkey breast., you could even get a whole one, probably on sale now, and cut it up for the size you need, and save the other parts, bonier ones, for later.
If she is acting and feeling better you might not even need to give her anything right now. No worries on the panic, we all do, they are our babies, and we care, that's why we look for answers everywhere we can. If she does show signs, break the capsule open, give only half, with a couple bites of ground turkey, if she will eat, if she won't eat, you still have half a capsule, put in some turkey broth, you can boil some and give her some that way, the smell of it always makes them at least want to take a sip or two:) But really if she is better, just let her eat a little like she wants to tolerate, and then keep the turkey going for a couple weeks and see how that goes. Keep us posted, I like the name Dinky:)
Jeni

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (13)
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3b. Re: Dinky
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:09 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> My worry is pancreatitis...that hunched back, pacing and stomach pain
are
> classic symptoms.
*****
I 100% agree, and the fact that the symptoms are recurring says there
is something much bigger going on than dietary indescretions. A
healthy dog can eat all sorts of crap and laugh about it. I think it's
time to stop fooling with poor Dinky's diet and get some serious
diagnostics. Bloodwork, sonogram at least.

It is clear changing his diet is at best a short term fix. Until you
see how bad it really is (whatever "it" is), you are simply rearranging
the deck chairs on the Titanic.

Please. Consider a professional look-see for the little guy.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (13)
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4a. Salt needs with raw feeding
Posted by: "cleone4100" cleone4100@aol.com cleone4100
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:09 pm ((PST))

Well my dogs have been on raw food now for about 3 months and it is
going great. Just recently however my 4 year old male has been chewing
up his dads sweaty bandanas, something he hasn't done before. He is
chewing up the sweatband portion only. They have toys to chew up so I
don't think its that. Do I need to be giving them any supplements or
additional salt?
Thanks, Carey and Biscuit and Gravy, the bloodhounds

Messages in this topic (2)
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4b. Re: Salt needs with raw feeding
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:35 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "cleone4100" <cleone4100@...> wrote:
>
> He is
> chewing up the sweatband portion only. They have toys to chew up
> so I
> don't think its that.

A dog can have 1,000 chew toys and when he finds something different
he will chew on it. It's how dogs explore their world. They use
their nose and mouth.

> Do I need to be giving them any supplements or
> additional salt?

Everything a dog does isn't because of diet. I strongly suspect he
has started this because of dad's smell on the bandana. I wouldn't
try to relate this to diet.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (2)
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5a. Re: Meaty deer bone supply in Mont. Co. Md.
Posted by: "Sylvia Tetzlaff" stetzlaff@yahoo.com stetzlaff
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:19 pm ((PST))

Hi, Steve,

Where in MO CO? I work in MO CO, and I want venison
for my raw pups.

Thanks,

Sylvia in PG CO

--- steven muse <musesteven@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Great source of meaty deer bones in MO CO, Md (off
> of I-270)! I found a deer processor (butcher) that
> I've been getting 10 gal bucket's (approx 25 +/-
> lbs.) full of meaty deer bones and scraps (chunks of
> meat & fat). Meat is free, but the bucket costs $10.
> (since your not allowed to sell game meat). If you
> live in the MO CO, Md area near I-270 e-mail me at
> westvasteve@aol and I'll get you his info. My dogs
> love em'.
>
> If you don't live in the area, call your local
> coop or ask the local hunter where the closest deer
> processor is and ask him for his scraps.
>
> steve
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>

____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better pen pal.
Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how.

http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/

Messages in this topic (9)
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6a. Re: Question about Live animal markets (sanitary?)
Posted by: "John and Jeni Blackmon" jonjeni777@sbcglobal.net jeniavidiva
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:19 pm ((PST))

Their stomachs are made to handle all kinds of dirty stuff that we can't. But I am surprised that this place was that filthy. But all in all if the meat was cheap, I would let them eat it, you could do a simple rinse first, for your own happiness:) But not needed. They'll love it just fine.
jeni

P.s. cudo's on the hunting down a good source:)

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Messages in this topic (5)
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6b. Re: Question about Live animal markets (sanitary?)
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:35 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Elie" <obo12759@...> wrote:
>
> I know, dogs
> can handle ripe beef and all that, but how do I know that this beef
> isn't tainted with some harmful bacteria?

What do you think "ripe" is? Of course it's tainted with harmful
bacteria but it doesn't matter. They can handle it.

> Like from the feces which I
> assume got mixed in somehow with the beef in that freezer
> (because of
> improper handling/butchering).

Doesn't matter. My dogs eat deer poop, rabbit poop and most any
other poop they run across. Its no big deal.

> My main concern is basically this: given the fact
> that I found this place to be rather unsanitary, and that the beef
> still smells like farm animals,

It's because they are.

> and that it was touching the hide of
> the cow in the freezer, and that my hands smellled like poo after
> touching some of that meat, do any of you think safe to feed my
> puppy?

Yep, I would.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (5)
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6c. Re: Question about Live animal markets (sanitary?)
Posted by: "Elie" obo12759@yahoo.com obo12759
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:51 pm ((PST))

Hi all,
Thank you all so much for your responses. When I think about it now,
the place probably wasn't that dirty, it's just I had no point of
reference as to how clean these types of places normally are (I'm from
the city, and I've never been to a slaughterhouse or anything like that.)

You guys all sound right- the meat's just fine, it's just that I'm new
to all this, and I don't want my puppy to get sick (and then get an "I
told you so" about raw from the vet - one lecture was more than
enough! Oh, and I'm currently looking for another vet, one that
doesn't react in horror to the idea of feeding a dog what it's
supposed to eat. But that's a whole different story).

I guess I'll toss him a hunk of meat in the morning, and we'll see how
it goes. Thanks again!

Elie and Cosmo

Messages in this topic (5)
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7. Re: new to group - Hello!
Posted by: "Michael Moore" m-tak@sbcglobal.net annemoore2000
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:19 pm ((PST))

>>So thanks for having me here and have a great day!<<

Hey, Lisa -- welcome to *this* group!!! You'll be amazed at the depth of knowledge here, too. Everyone here will be delighted to hear about Ringeaux when he arrives, I'm sure.

`-- Anne and the PWC and one goofy GSD rescue and a silly Golden rescue

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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8a. Re: Anal Glands
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:06 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "paula.0666" <roogirl@...> wrote:
>
> I'm just interested in the
> experiences and suggestions of the group far more than what
> Dr No says!

Dr. No don't know. Yes to what the others said. I had a dog with
anal glands that needed expressed a couple of times a year until
switched. Not one expression since switching.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

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8b. Re: Anal Glands
Posted by: "paula.0666" roogirl@adam.com.au paula.0666
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:51 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "paula.0666" <roogirl@...> wrote:
>
> MODERATORS NOTE:SIGN YOUR MAILS!
>
>Thank you so much for the interest and support for issues that no-one
else will discuss with me. I have learned how to use the archives and
will try not to ask questions now unless I have to. I also apologise
for being so excited that I forgot to sign my mail.

Kind regards - Paula (learning about rawfeeding AND computers!!)
>
>
>>

Messages in this topic (9)
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9a. Re: High Volume Treats
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:06 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Treulich, Sarah" <sarah@...>
wrote:
>
> I was considering using the
> hotdogs and turkey pieces by themselves. Any suggestions?

I've been clicker training for close to 10 years. I ususally use
Authority Little Liver Treats or Bil-jack liver treats(I think they
are the same thing). Each little "nuget" of those things makes
about 20 to 25 treats(obvously I use very tiny treats). Something
the size of a fingernail would be about 20 treats for my dogs and my
dogs are Great Danes. A single hot dog makes about a couple of
hundred treats. I use beef hot dogs because they have less moisture.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (5)
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10a. Re: Bad Pork??
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:06 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Tracy" <fireynyredhead@...>
wrote:
>
> For dogs is there such a thing as Bad Pork? How long does pork
last > in the fridge before it becomes unhealthy for the dogs?

I suspect a lot longer than you would want to keep in in the fridge.

> I know that they
> love really ripe beef, but still being rather new to this, I was
> wondering if it is ok to feed pork that is no longer fit for human
> comsumption?

Yes, much longer.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

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11a. Re: what should i buy
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 9:50 pm ((PST))

"tiffany.contempopainting" <tiffcurran@...> wrote:
have realized that my local market doesn't have much variety (chicken
turkey)
*****
No pork? No beef? Wowsa.

I'm going to a Hispanic market this weekend what should I look for.
*****
How about Asian? From an Asian market you're likely to get the most
out of pork. Pork meat without bone (you don't need a name for these
parts, just point), pork meat on bone (mostly neck bones that don't
have much meat on them, unfortunately but also legs and maybe
shoulder roasts). You might be able to get some decent fresh fish
(don't worry about Omega 3 fish, just think protein variety).

From the Hispanic market you should be able to get beef things, maybe
pork. Don't worry about beef with bones, just get beef meat. If
it's beef meat and you can afford it, buy it. Again, you don't need
a name for the stuff. Maybe some goat stuff. Don't buy the chopped
up meat and bones. Don't buy the tripe, regardless of how much you
really want to think it's the right kind of tripe. It isn't.

Eventually we'll need organs and stuff what consitutes organs.
*****
Liver, kidney, spleen (pork spleen is called pork melt). You should
buy heart but it's fed as meaty meat not organ. Don't worry about
the intestines you'll see, but the fact is any fresh meat you find in
a store you can feed to your dog.

Sorry but still new at this.
*****
Don't be sorry. Learn to use the archives. The answers you want are
in there.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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12a. Re: Mixing veggies with meat
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:00 pm ((PST))

"lolaspony" <lolaspony@...> wrote:
>
>> I thought that
> it was advised to mix pureed raw veggies with the raw meat. Is this
> wrong? I've been giving my dog a mixture of raw meat (ground meat,
> chicken backs, etc.) with pureed raw veggies (usually carrots,
> broccoli, celery), and flaxseed oil, nutritional yeast, and sometimes
> raw egg.
*****
It's only advised by people who think dogs are omnivores (they're not)
or by people who have products to sell you (we don't). No veggies
pureed or otherwise, no mixing anything with meat (feed the meat
whole), chicken backs are good for bone but severely lack meat. No
flaxseed (no nothing from plants), no nutritional yeast. Just meat,
edible bone, organs.

Eggs are so good they can be fed quite regularly; "sometimes" is hardly
enough. You probably read that whites should not be fed. That's also
incorrect.

I recommend you access the list archives and do some preliminary
reading, then check out:
http://rawfed.com
http://rawfeddogs.net
http://www.rawlearning.com
Chris O

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13a. will too much bone cause the runs?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:15 pm ((PST))

recyclerat@... wrote:>
> i've never given him tripe, but i've seen in the store..and,
GAG. i was
> willing to give it a shot if it was super fatty and easily
digested..but if
> its not - then i'd just rather not mess with that all together.
*****
Tripe you see at a store is processed for human consumption and offers
none of the benefits associated with raw green tripe. Don't even
bother gagging over the stuff. Ain't worth it.

And raw green tripe varies in fat content. I get chopped green tripe
from two sources and neither version is fatty. It is easily digested
though.
Chris O

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14a. ADMIIN/Re: High Volume Treats
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:23 pm ((PST))

Treat-making is an inappropriate topic for the rawfeeding list.
Recipes are not appropriate. Dehydrators are not appropriate.
Measuring, weighing, roasting, boiling, drying, freezing of treats:
also inappropriate. Please take all such conversations to RawChat.

Newcomers, now you know.
Those of you who have been around a while, you should already know.
Chris O
Moderation Team

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15.1. Re: Green Tripe
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:26 pm ((PST))

"mrsmenk" <mrsmenk@...> wrote:
>
> Sorry if this has been covered before. I could not find it in the
> archives.
*****
There are 61 (now 62) messages in the archives regarding green tripe.
Not sure where you looked, but if you typed in "green tripe" you should
have been able to find something. Keep trying.
Chris O

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16a. Re: Need to wash the scraps from butcher?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:42 pm ((PST))

"mariola9000" <mariola9000@...> wrote:>
> I picked up some venison scraps from a butcher today and he told me
to
> wash the meat because it is not fresh (the deer were not local -
from
> Colorado, and we live in California) and dirty
*****
Dogs don't care. If it makes YOU feel better, wash it. I suspect
the butcher has little experience with dogs eating raw meat. Dirt
happens.

Should I wash it before freezing like he suggested,
> and if yes - in what? Plain warm water?
*****
You don't have to freeze it either. I mean, you can if you want to
but you don't have to. Forget the washing.

If I ask for meaty bones of a goat for example
> (the goat leg quarters are $3.29/lb), what would be a reasonable
> amount to pay for those?
*****
There are no such things as meaty bones from a goat. Goats aren't
terribly meaty. If the bone's been stripped of meat, there won't be
enough meat left to justify its expense. With goat, you pretty much
buy the whole body part, or you buy nothing.

I got scraps for free, but I guess people are
> usually paying for meaty bones, right?.
*****
I recommend you stop thinking about acquiring meaty bones. You will
almost without exception get stuck with bare bones. You want body
parts. Shoulder roasts, legs, necks, haunches, ribs, backs, tails.

The best way to get a "meaty bone" is to buy a bone-in roast, cut off
some meat for yourself, then feed the dog what's left.

> I never fed goat yet. Are goat bones soft? Which ones are edible?
*****
Depends on the dog of course, but I've found that everything goat is
edible. Goat is one of my favorite things to feed. All good, no
waste.

> He asked if I wanted the deer bones bones, but those were devoid of
> any meat, so I declined.
*****
Good for you! How you think about bare deer bones? Think that same
way about every bone.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (2)
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