[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12335

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Anal Glands
From: Meg Sorhus

2a. Re: High Volume Treats
From: costrowski75
2b. Re: High Volume Treats
From: jennifer_hell
2c. Re: High Volume Treats
From: jennifer_hell
2d. Re: High Volume Treats
From: marclre

3a. Re: Need to wash the scraps from butcher?
From: costrowski75
3b. Re: Need to wash the scraps from butcher?
From: Tina Berry
3c. Re: Need to wash the scraps from butcher?
From: Vom Eishenblick Rottweilers
3d. Re: Need to wash the scraps from butcher?
From: mariola9000
3e. Re: Need to wash the scraps from butcher?
From: merril Woolf

4a. Re: Mixing veggies with meat
From: costrowski75
4b. Re: Mixing veggies with meat
From: marclre
4c. Re: Mixing veggies with meat
From: Yasuko herron

5a. Re: Starving to death...
From: jackie
5b. Re: Starving to death...
From: Tina Berry
5c. Re: Starving to death...
From: mmc2315
5d. Re: Starving to death...
From: costrowski75
5e. Re: Starving to death...
From: Tina Berry
5f. Re: Starving to death...
From: katkellm
5g. Re: Starving to death...
From: Karen Swanay

6a. ADMIN/Re: High Volume Treats
From: costrowski75

7a. Re: Bad Pork??
From: Tracy

8a. Re: Does anyone have greyhounds that they feed raw?
From: marjo roth

9a. How much meat in a supermarket would be seasoned?
From: quiltingtuppy
9b. Re: How much meat in a supermarket would be seasoned?
From: Yasuko herron

Messages
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1a. Re: Anal Glands
Posted by: "Meg Sorhus" megsorhus@hotmail.com megasorhus
Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:15 am ((PST))

I am new on this list, but would like to add my 2 cents to this one.

I used to be a dog groomer for many years and have cleaned hundreds of anal glands. What I have noticed is that overweight dogs, dogs on kibble diets, or dogs with old injuries in that area, tend to be the dogs to have anal gland problems. Every dog that I have ever cleaned who has been fed raw has either very little gland secretions or a thin liquidy consistency (normal). Maybe it is coincidence, maybe not. I have also cleaned many dogs with normal glands that have been fed kibble, so it is not like they have to be raw fed to have good glands.

Having more stool is not going to help the dog secrete his/her glands better. A dog with the proper anal gland fluid can secrete it just fine on their own - and not necessarily only when pooping. The problem comes when the fluid is thick, grainy, or chunky - not normal!! It should be some shade of brownish and smooth and watery in texture. A slight graininess is not a real problem, but if it is thick or whitish your dog is having problems.

When I switched my dogs to raw I noticed a defiant change in the 'quality' of their anal gland secretions. I do clean them periodically when I bath them so have been able to see the changes over the years. Some dogs naturally produce more, some less. But on each of my dogs the texture and quantity have changed for the better on a raw diet (keep in mind that these dogs did not have problems before either). My mother raises Welsh Springers and over the years I have cleaned the glands on her dogs too. When she switched to raw the same thing happened to her dogs - better fluid with less volume.

It is my humble opinion that Jasper is going to do much better with his glands once he is on a raw diet. Maybe not, but from what my personal expense says he is going to thank you.

Meg

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Messages in this topic (10)
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2a. Re: High Volume Treats
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:26 am ((PST))

Cdandp2@... wrote:
>
> Bill Jack?? Please would you check the ingredients on the box? I
thought
> they were loaded with grains and sugars? Wouldn't that kind of
defeat the
> notion of the prey model?
*****
Since treats by definition are special (otherwise they would not be
treats) anything can be a treat if it does no harm and the dog vaues
it. So crappy stuff can be treats in small doses. A single BilJack
cracker isn't likely to break the dog, although some dogs cannnot do
any grain at all and we should always respect that sensitivity.

But to use grain-based products regularly? I say no way. Especially
not in a food-based training program. There are better treats, raw
and prepared.

Raw treats can be discussed on this list; prepared treats should be
discussed on RawChat.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (14)
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2b. Re: High Volume Treats
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:11 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:

> Yes they are and no it doesn't. Even for high volume trainers,
> training treats make up only a very small amount of the diet. That
> small amount doesn't matter.

I have to disagree with this. If you clicker train, and work for
example daily on everyday situations and on counterconditioning, you
can go through more than half of the daily amount easily.

Jennifer

Messages in this topic (14)
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2c. Re: High Volume Treats
Posted by: "jennifer_hell" jenniferhell@web.de jennifer_hell
Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:11 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Treulich, Sarah" <sarah@...> wrote:
>
> Hello. I just switched to raw feeding and I'm wondering about what to
> use for treats.
Dehydrated lung, or beef meat cut into very small pieces, and dried a
little so that it's not too messy.

Jennifer

Messages in this topic (14)
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2d. Re: High Volume Treats
Posted by: "marclre" marclre@aol.com marclre
Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:12 am ((PST))

aw treats can be discussed on this list; prepared treats should be discussed on RawChat.

***Mostly a quick scratch under the chin & kind word is reward enough...hmmm...wonder if
they counts as raw treats ;) ***

Messages in this topic (14)
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3a. Re: Need to wash the scraps from butcher?
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:46 am ((PST))

Cdandp2@... wrote:>
> I add some apple cider vinegar or hygrogen peroxide to the "bath"
water then
> rinse well if the meat is "iffy."
*****
What "bath" water? You bathe your dogs' food? Why? I think if you
are bathing your dogs' food (which is just silly), you need not do
more to the bathwater. Your dogs do not need their meat sanitized for
their protection.

I just attended a raw feeding workshop
> and the woman there was adamant about not offering "off" meats,
especially to
> compromised (elderly, sick, allergy-prone, etc) dogs. Seems this
group takes
> a different stand on that?
*****
I certainly do. It is, I believe, ill-advised to judge our dogs'
abilities on our human limitations and expectations. Who are we to
say what off meat is for a carnivore with an entirely different
digestive system than ours?

What about the elderly, the sick? This list has always recommended
feeding the to aged and the impaired food appropriate for the
individual dog. If the circumstance indicates fresh meat, then feed
fresh meat. If not, don't get all bent out of shape because the meat
smells icky. (Many vegetarians think ALL meat smells icky.)

"Allergy-prone" means little. I think what the woman was saying is
any dog with a compromised immune system should not be feed "off"
meat. Well, guess what? Most of our dogs HAVE compromised immune
systems, whether the result is manisfested through "allergies" or
itchy skin or digestive problems or fatty tumors or seizures or
cancer.

Since many many people feed "off meats" with great success to dogs
whose immune systems are challenged by whatever, I'd say the woman's
sweeping dismissal of "off" meat is based less on reality and more on
her own limitations and expectations.

Besides, who wants to pay good money to hear someone recommend
feeding "off" meat? You pay good money, you want to hear
about "good" food.

Make your own choice of course. But when I can get shot-up vension
virtually free and when I can get leg o' lamb for .99/lb because
it's "off" and when I can get lovely pork roasts for .50/lb because
they smell "funny", I surely do. And my dogs certainly haven't had
to bear the brunt of poor choices.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (10)
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3b. Re: Need to wash the scraps from butcher?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:31 am ((PST))

I never wash the venison we get from our butcher, and I've found dead mice
in the cans, dirt, hair, but it's fairly clean. Dogs don't care, eat it
before and after it's been frozen for years - no problems.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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Messages in this topic (10)
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3c. Re: Need to wash the scraps from butcher?
Posted by: "Vom Eishenblick Rottweilers" vomeishenblick@hotmail.com vomeishenblick
Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:02 am ((PST))

there is no need to "wash or bath" meat. dogs have naturally stong
stomach acids. bad meat will not bother them. my dogs have eaten
tripe and meat that they have burried in the yard weeks after.
so..... and they don't get sick from it.
Brenda Dumesnil
Vom Eishenblick Rottweilers
www.geocities.com/vomeishenblick

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mariola9000" <mariola9000@...>
wrote:
>
> I picked up some venison scraps from a butcher today and he told
me to
> wash the meat because it is not fresh (the deer were not local -
from
> Colorado, and we live in California) and dirty. BTW - I told the
> butcher I wanted the sraps for the dog, but did not say anything
about
> raw.
> What do you think? Should I wash it before freezing like he
suggested,
> and if yes - in what? Plain warm water?
>
> I will be going over to his store for more and fresher meat next
week,
> also some boar scraps.
>
> What else should I ask for? I think I could convince this guy to
give
> me/sell more stuff. If I ask for meaty bones of a goat for example
> (the goat leg quarters are $3.29/lb), what would be a reasonable
> amount to pay for those? I got scraps for free, but I guess people
are
> usually paying for meaty bones, right?.
>
> I never fed goat yet. Are goat bones soft? Which ones are edible?
>
> He asked if I wanted the deer bones bones, but those were devoid of
> any meat, so I declined. I already had bare naked bones from my
> previous "deer hunt" and that was disappointing.
>
> Mariola
>

Messages in this topic (10)
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3d. Re: Need to wash the scraps from butcher?
Posted by: "mariola9000" mariola9000@yahoo.com mariola9000
Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:09 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Vom Eishenblick Rottweilers"
<vomeishenblick@...> wrote:
>
> there is no need to "wash or bath" meat. dogs have naturally stong
> stomach acids. bad meat will not bother them.

Thank you, EVERYONE who responded. I really value your opinions.

Mariola

Messages in this topic (10)
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3e. Re: Need to wash the scraps from butcher?
Posted by: "merril Woolf" merril@kentfieldwhippets.com whippetsrus2002
Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:30 pm ((PST))

> there is no need to "wash or bath" meat. dogs have naturally stong
> stomach acids. bad meat will not bother them. my dogs have eaten
> tripe and meat that they have burried in the yard weeks after.
> so..... and they don't get sick from it.
> Brenda Dumesnil
> Vom Eishenblick Rottweilers
> www.geocities.com/vomeishenblick

We butchered 2 cows back in August of this year. We use all of the cow except the
intestines and hide which we bury in our back forty in a huge pit. We cover it with dirt and
it eventually breaks down.

Well, one of our dogs has dug a hole under the fence recently and has dug up the remains
of the August butchered cows in the back pasture.
We mend the hole and she managed to dig under again in another spot. She's been doing
this for 2 weeks now and we are just trying to keep on top of her and her digging.
She had gained so much weight in the 2 weeks that she's been eating 'buried hide and
intestines' that I've had to stop feeding her regular food.

Has she been sick? Heck no! None of my dogs get sick from anything but if something
was to make them sick, you'd think this would be one of them. Instead, she's fat as a
tick!! One day she brought some of her diggings back into the yard for the rest to enjoy.
They did!

Anyway, my point being that we often feed smelly meat in all forms and we even have
certain wayward dogs who dig up long buried treasures. They just thrive...

Merril

Messages in this topic (10)
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4a. Re: Mixing veggies with meat
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:07 am ((PST))

"Evie" <archie.willow@...> wrote:
>> Getting off topic here; but felt I needed to comment. Carrots don't
> contain sugar. I'm diabetic and they don't contain any carbohydrates
> to be counted into my diet. HTH.
*****
Yeah they do. At the very least root vegetables are the food supply for
the rest of the plant and the food is starch with is sugar. It may not
enough to count in your diet but that doesn't mean it's not there. For
a dog with itchy skin and gunky ears, it may well count.

From the USDA Nutrient Database
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

100g raw carrot:
9.58g carbs
4.74g sugar
3.59g sucrose
.59g glucose
.55g fructose
1.43g starch

100g raw green beans:
7.13g carbs
1.4g sugar

100g beef frank:
4.06g carbs
3.39g sugar
2.82g dextrose
1.32g starch

100g raw beef heart:
.14g carbs
0.0g sugar
Chris O

Messages in this topic (9)
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4b. Re: Mixing veggies with meat
Posted by: "marclre" marclre@aol.com marclre
Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:11 am ((PST))

"Carrots don't contain sugar. I'm diabetic and they don't contain any carbohydrates to be
counted into my diet."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrot

http://www.foodreference.com/html/artcarrots.html

http://www.carrotmuseum.co.uk/

Marie-Claire

Messages in this topic (9)
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4c. Re: Mixing veggies with meat
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:32 pm ((PST))

Hi,Evi.Here is complete list of nutrient fact of carrot. You can see that carrots are good for what nutrient andbad for waht nutrient by reading this.

http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20cR.html

Carrots being 89% carb,and most calorie is from sugar in carrot itself.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (9)
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5a. Re: Starving to death...
Posted by: "jackie" jackiehale1@bellsouth.net jackieoscar2000
Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:12 am ((PST))

Ok, now I really feel horrible after some of the responses. Am I
supposed to be feeding my dogs for satisfaction or for good health? I
want my dogs to be happy, which they are, except for being hungry.
Maybe I will try to feed 1 meal a day instead of breaking it into 2
meals and see if that helps.
Jackie

Messages in this topic (17)
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5b. Re: Starving to death...
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:31 am ((PST))

"Am I supposed to be feeding my dogs for satisfaction or for good health? I
want my dogs to be happy, which they are, except for being hungry. "

For good health.... and for the record, my 4 are ALWAYS starving.... and
their ribs barely show thru their fur and feel like nice washboards... hubby
over fed them a few days ago so I had to cut them back a little for a few
days. But mine are always hungry and they look great, they are not
starving. One time Ruger got into a bag of meat and ate about 5 lbs - a few
hours later he threw up about 2-3 lbs of it. Mine all get fed once a day,
1.5 lbs each approx. and they vary in weight from 85-97 lbs.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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5c. Re: Starving to death...
Posted by: "mmc2315" m.chelap@sbcglobal.net mmc2315
Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:31 am ((PST))

Hi Jackie,

Our dog is only 10# and we are feeding once a day. It has been working out well.

Good luck!

Michelle

Messages in this topic (17)
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5d. Re: Starving to death...
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:31 am ((PST))

"jackie" <jackiehale1@...> wrote:
> Am I
> supposed to be feeding my dogs for satisfaction or for good health?
*****
You are supposed to do both. Good health is not just about hitting the
nutrients--heck, SD does that; any AAFCO approved dogfood does that.

Good health includes mental health. Physical, dental, mental. All
three can be addressed by feeding food that nourishes, cleans,
satisfies. The contentment that comes from a full belly--the knowledge
however feral that there is no need to keep hunting--is certainly part
of mental health. Garbage scavenging and counter surfing are hunting
behaviors, reinforced of course by success. My guess is these
behaviors will diminish as your dogs come to look forward to more
engaging meals. OTOH, dogs are opportunists, so if you continue to
leave food where it can be reached, your dogs are not going to see
reason to stop trying.

"Hungry" is as much mental as it is physical.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (17)
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5e. Re: Starving to death...
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:02 am ((PST))

"Garbage scavenging and counter surfing are hunting behaviors, reinforced of
course by success. My guess is these behaviors will diminish as your dogs
come to look forward to more engaging meals."

I wish... Chris tell this to my 85lb female who is the family garbage
digger, counter surfer, also eats the most raw & bones... never full.....
and I even had her on the little heavy side and she STILL gets in the
garbage and counter surfs - granted their meals are not challenging... 2 lbs
of scraps all tho large don't require too much muscle to eat.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (17)
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5f. Re: Starving to death...
Posted by: "katkellm" katkellm@yahoo.com katkellm
Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:27 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jackie" <jackiehale1@...> wrote:
>
> Ok, now I really feel horrible after some of the responses. Am I
> supposed to be feeding my dogs for satisfaction or for good health?

Hi Jackie,
You shouldn't feel bad about anything. You love your dogs enough to
step outside the box and feed a raw diet. Now, you are at a point in
the learning curve where you will decide what is best for your dogs
next. Initially, i fed raw twice a day because i fed kibble twice a
day. After about a month, i realized that by feeding twice a day i
couldn't feed large enough hunks of food to let my dogs really rip and
tear and clean their teeth, so i dropped down to once a day. Once i
started learning even more about raw feeding, i learned way more about
the anatomical and physiological design of my dogs. As with many
things we have been taught to be correct by pet food companies and
preached by vets with little nutritional training, i learned that it
is not true that a dog has to eat twice or even once a day to be
healthy. I learned that if it was best for my dog to be fed wolf food,
it must be to the dog's advantage to eat the same way as a wolf. A
wolf eats all it can when it can. That's how Mother Nature made them.
We can apply people comforts to our dogs, like eating multiple little
meals, but those ideas only make us feel better, they don't really
serve the best interests of the dog. Now, i feed random sized meals
at irregular intervals. I think that this is one of the ways that you
can feed a dog to both good health-physical- and satisfaction-mental
health. KathyM

Messages in this topic (17)
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5g. Re: Starving to death...
Posted by: "Karen Swanay" luvbullbreeds@gmail.com kswanay1111
Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:35 am ((PST))

There is a good reason to feed things like whole deer heads. Not only can
the dog eat all it wants, the act of eating is tiring as well. And there
are people that gorge and fast as regular habits. Only feeding every third
day but feeding a lot so the dog is very full and digests for days. A more
wild feeding pattern.

Karen

>
>

--
"Family isn't about whose blood you have. It's about who you care about."

LOI 1/26/07
PA 3/22/07
DTC 8/10/07
LID 8/23/07
LOA 11/9/07
TA ?
Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact, or fact are transmission errors.

~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~ ~*~

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (17)
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6a. ADMIN/Re: High Volume Treats
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:16 am ((PST))

I think this topic has worn out its welcome. Further discussion along
these lines can be continued on RawChat or elsewhere. More responses
to this subject line will be rejected.
Thanks.
Chris O
Moderation Team

Messages in this topic (14)
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7a. Re: Bad Pork??
Posted by: "Tracy" fireynyredhead@yahoo.com fireynyredhead
Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:02 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "carnesbill" <carnesw@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Tracy" <fireynyredhead@>
> wrote:
> >
> > For dogs is there such a thing as Bad Pork? How long does pork
> last > in the fridge before it becomes unhealthy for the dogs?
>
> I suspect a lot longer than you would want to keep in in the fridge.

The reason I asked is because I forgot about some sliced pig hocks
and skin that I had sitting in the bottom drawer of my fridge and was
wondering if I should trash it or just toss it in the yard. I have
to others with very strong stomachs (basically garbage hounds that
can eat anything w/o ill effects) and have contemplated giving it to
them but wasn't sure if it had potential health issues.

> > I know that they
> > love really ripe beef, but still being rather new to this, I was
> > wondering if it is ok to feed pork that is no longer fit for
human
> > comsumption?
>
> Yes, much longer.
>
> Bill Carnes
> http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm
>
> Feeding Raw since October 2002
>
> "Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
> Dr. Tom Lonsdale
>

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8a. Re: Does anyone have greyhounds that they feed raw?
Posted by: "marjo roth" greytbizz@yahoo.com greytbizz
Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:02 am ((PST))

We started our two rescued (special needs) greyhounds,
Dreamer (6 yo with epilepsy and/or a possible brain
tumour and broken hocks) and Grace (8 yo with
hypothyroidism and eye issues (blue around iris) - on
Acular twice a day) on raw approximately 11 or 12
weeks ago.

There have been no problems that I can actually
associate with the raw food. Just by coincidence they
both got UTIs shortly after starting but these seem
clear now (after antibiotics).

They are happy goodlooking hounds who look forward to
their meals.

We are still researching the best way to feed and I am
awaiting the arrival of Susan Johnson's book because I
suspect we may be feeding too many RMBs (turkey
necks). Muscle meat seems to be a challenge for us as
it is more expensive than RMBs and we are still not
sure what cuts to give other than ground meat which
apparently does not give enough of a workout so to
speak.

We would never return to kibble again and enjoy the
challenge of learning about this new way of feeding.

Good luck!

Melanie & Marjo
Greyhounds in Need of Adoption Inc (Greater Toronto
Area - Canada)
saveagrey.com

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9a. How much meat in a supermarket would be seasoned?
Posted by: "quiltingtuppy" mamacass@iprimus.com.au quiltingtuppy
Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:32 pm ((PST))

Hi All,

Just wondering, apart from the labelled as 'seasoned' human grade meat cuts in a
supermarket, how much of the cuts of meats would be enhanced with salt or anything else?
Are they obliged to label that?
I'm in Australia but your answers would probably be relevant wherever you live?
Cheers
Stephanie

Messages in this topic (2)
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9b. Re: How much meat in a supermarket would be seasoned?
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:52 pm ((PST))

>Are they obliged to label that?

Hi,steph.I am not sure about label rules,but if you read label very well,it says something like "enhanced with solution","Retained up to xx% of water","Contain X % of salt solution" etc
The letters are pretty small but I be careful when buying and read it good.

Recently,I got Turkey with good price and,when I looked frozen Turkey,it said it is enhanced with solution but when I looked at same brand's Fresh Turkey,it just contained water no solution or enhance at all.So,you can look both frozen and non frozen item and sometimes you find different way to sell to customers.

In case of seasoned products,often times, marinated pork etc is quite easy to tell from package's view.

I find that if you get chicken breast,most products are enhanced with broth to make it juicier and tender while if you look whole poultry,you can get one without such treatment easier ; can get bird without solution or broth enhancement.

yassy

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