Feed Pets Raw Food: [rawfeeding] Digest Number 12341

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Which of these has more good stuff for kittens..gizzards(bird st
From: costrowski75

2a. Re: New Rawfeeder - Hi
From: Laura Bonavia
2b. Re: New Rawfeeder - Hi
From: Chia
2c. Re: New Rawfeeder - Hi
From: Giselle
2d. Newish Raw Feeder and a Couple of Questions
From: Jessica MacMillan
2e. Re: Newish Raw Feeder and a Couple of Questions
From: Andrea
2f. Re: New Rawfeeder - Hi
From: Laura

3a. Re: Something to give during birth....
From: Tina Berry

4a. Re: my dog isn't eating raw
From: Sarah
4b. Re: my dog isn't eating raw
From: Sylvia Tetzlaff
4c. Re: my dog isn't eating raw
From: vanevery0
4d. Re: my dog isn't eating raw
From: Chia
4e. Re: my dog isn't eating raw
From: Andrea

5a. types of places to buy raw locally
From: j2dope17
5b. Re: types of places to buy raw locally
From: Giselle
5c. Re: types of places to buy raw locally
From: j2dope17

6a. Concerned: throwing up chicken bone shards... what's going on?
From: Tiffany
6b. Re: Concerned: throwing up chicken bone shards... what's going on?
From: Tina Berry
6c. Re: Concerned: throwing up chicken bone shards... what's going on?
From: Tiffany

7a. DEER MEAT
From: Diana Jones
7b. Re: DEER MEAT
From: Tina Berry
7c. Re: DEER MEAT
From: mgitaville

8a. Re: Here is a new twist on this issue
From: arabianbluedobe

9a. Re: Raw Book list
From: arabianbluedobe

10a. Re: frozen/fresh
From: mgitaville

Messages
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1a. Re: Which of these has more good stuff for kittens..gizzards(bird st
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 9:04 am ((PST))

"jordan_spiva" <jordan_spiva@...> wrote:
> Is there a nutritional diference in stomaches from mammals and
stomaches from birds?
*****
To some degree; although the gizzard that's generally called the
bird's stomach is not the bird's real (anatomical) stomach. Ah,
details. Live by 'em, die by 'em.

Anyway. An uncleaned gizzard is not likely to hold anything
especially nutritious for a carnivore. The uncleaned stomachs of a
ruminant (them what chews their cuds) may offer something of value to
a dog, probably not to a cat. Ditto the uncleaned stomach of an
ungulate (them what do not chew their cuds, like a pig). The actual
tissues that either gizzard or stomach is made from are probably
similarly nutritious (or not).

we need to know which would be better for both them and their mom. Or
> are they the same.
*****
Neither of them by themselves are adequate nutrition for a Momma Cat
and her babies. Why are you limiting your options to these two
marginal protein sources?

You should be feeding Momma Cat meat and bones and organs, just as
you would feed to a Momma Dog. The more nourishment going into Momma
Cat, the more nourishment going into the babies, plain and simple.

If you cannot feed her mice and rats and rabbits and other small
mammals, you can feed her chicken and pork and beef and fish, which
means not only the flesh, but also the fat and connective tissue and
edible bones and organs. If she will not eat these raw foods you
will need to feed her whatever else she WILL eat, if you expect her
and her babies to survive.

For specific cat information, you can join:
Post message: rawcat@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe: rawcat-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe: rawcat-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Good luck!
Chris O

Messages in this topic (3)
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2a. Re: New Rawfeeder - Hi
Posted by: "Laura Bonavia" lasme8@yahoo.com thebunnylady
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 9:06 am ((PST))

I now see that I have to reply to group instead of to
sender.

Now I see that I have to give large portion of meat
with some bone but last night gave him the turkey neck
and a chicken neck. Too much bone, am afraid if this
will be a problem. Please advise. I had already
bought a small supply of ground, but want to feed as
you say, whole portions. Do you have advise about
using up the ground.

Thank you so much for your help. Can't wait to get
this straight.

Laura

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Messages in this topic (11)
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2b. Re: New Rawfeeder - Hi
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 9:11 am ((PST))

I now see that I have to reply to group instead of to
sender.

#### if you must feed the ground, perhaps give a good 'gnaw' meal prior,
so the stomach acids are prepped and he/she gets the oral workout required
for mental/physical stimulation, THEN, plop the ground down like a finishing
desert.

This way, you have the best of both worlds without wasting the ground you
have left. In the future, feed only whole or LARGE items, depending on the
size of your dog. It's as simple as prey...as nature intended. Feed necks
when attached to the whole bird instead.

:-))

Chia & Ricco

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Messages in this topic (11)
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2c. Re: New Rawfeeder - Hi
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 9:42 am ((PST))

Hi, Laura!
Do what I do when I buy necks and ground - sometimes they are
*too* cheap to pass up!

Wad the ground onto an end of the turkey neck and freeze - you can do a
bunch of them this way. Just feed frozen and your dog will have a bigger,
meatier meal. Or, if you have some chicken necks, just stuff some ground
around several of them and freeze, etc. Works. You can do it with beef
heart, too.

I feed little sardines or smelts the same way - usually get them in a 2 lb
bag, so one frozen/stuck together bag of 'em is 2 days worth. No meal, or a
pork neck bone or lamb thingy or a couple of beef ribs in a slab will do 'er
the next day.

Oh, raw feeding is a figure it out as you go along kinda deal - fun, and
lovely for the dogs!

TC
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

<snip>
>
>
> Now I see that I have to give large portion of meat
> with some bone but last night gave him the turkey neck
> and a chicken neck. Too much bone, am afraid if this
> will be a problem. Please advise. I had already
> bought a small supply of ground, but want to feed as
> you say, whole portions. Do you have advise about
> using up the ground.
>
> Thank you so much for your help. Can't wait to get
> this straight.
>
> Laura
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (11)
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2d. Newish Raw Feeder and a Couple of Questions
Posted by: "Jessica MacMillan" spotted101@hotmail.com jessica.macmillan
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 11:26 am ((PST))

Good Morning Everyone -

My name is Jessica and I have two GSDs - 8 year old Simmie who has a CGC., TDI., TC and 17 month old Pepper who is making her "for real" debut in the show ring next month.

I am a second generation dog person as my mom has been breeding and showing dalmatians for over 40 with over 150 champions and many other titles. I have completed championships on Dals, Flat-Coated Retrievers, Goldens, Brittanies and Vizslas.

I am not really new to raw as my mom has been feeding it with great success for about 8 years.. She has been a great source of info and resources... However there are a couple of questions that I do have she is not sure about.

I have been feeding it for 6 months and LOVE the results. My girls have fabulous coats, beautiful hard muscling, bright eyes and pearlie white teeth. I switched to raw after much research and the fact that my elder Shepherd has been put under twice to have her teeth clean.

We do primarily chicken but also mackarel, beef/pork necks, venison, etc... I do fish oil almost every day and they do get Gluc/Chondroitin for their joints. I also add garlic once in a while and yogurt/eggs in the morning.

I am one of the people that does veggies. I do it for about a week and then not do it for about two weeks. I also add liver occasionally, chicken gizzards, heart, etc.

I do have some questions:

1. Tripe? Is it an essential in the diet it? I am contemplating this one.. Dogs will love it.
2. Deer bones. I do feed venison and olive oil. I picked up some deer shanks with meet on them. They are cut into about 4 inch long bones... How do people feel about deer bones? We did ribs yesterday and the dogs LOVED them.
3. Fish... Living in WI and having a friend who hunts and fishes, I am wondering what people thing of fish heads, etc... I certainly wouldn't make it a staple in the dogs diet, but if I have the option, I would like to add it.

I am looking forward to the list...

Jess Mac
Paisley Dals (www.paisleydals.com)
& The Shepherd Girls (Simmie, CGC., TDI., TT and Pepper *FUTURE STAR*)
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Messages in this topic (11)
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2e. Re: Newish Raw Feeder and a Couple of Questions
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 12:14 pm ((PST))

Welcome to the group, Jessica.

> I have been feeding it for 6 months and LOVE the results. My girls
> have fabulous coats, beautiful hard muscling, bright eyes and
> pearlie white teeth.

Great! It really is amazing how quickly we see benefits from feeding
a species appropriate diet.

> I am one of the people that does veggies. I do it for about a week
> and then not do it for about two weeks.

Well, as long as you know your dogs don't need the veggies. Your pet
carnivores would do just as fine without them and you would have more
free time without the pulping/juicing. If you can't give them up
just make sure the veggies are fed as an extra to normal meals, don't
let it take the place of good meat/bones/organs.

> I also add liver occasionally, chicken gizzards, heart, etc.

Excellent, for raw feeding purposes we consider heart, gizzard and
tongue as "meat" just so you know. Liver is definitely an organ
along with other squidgy things.

> 1. Tripe? Is it an essential in the diet it?

Nope. Some dogs love it, and it can be used as a great bribe food.
I wouldn't put it any higher than any other meat though. It's good
for variety, but no need to break the bank getting it.

> 2. Deer bones. I do feed venison and olive oil. I picked up some
> deer shanks with meet on them. They are cut into about 4 inch long
> bones... How do people feel about deer bones?

I'm not a fan of bare bones or cut up bones. If they were the whole
shank I'd probably let the dogs strip the meat and tendons off before
taking it away. My dogs aren't to be trusted with 4 inch long boney
things. A slab of deer ribs or whole meaty bones would be welcome at
my house any time.

> I am wondering what people thing of fish heads, etc...

My boys love fish heads, especially salmon. It's a good way to add
non kidney/liver organs into the diet. In general, if you would eat
the fish it's ok to give to your pups.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (11)
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2f. Re: New Rawfeeder - Hi
Posted by: "Laura" lasme8@yahoo.com thebunnylady
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 12:51 pm ((PST))

Hi,

Could I ask, what NOT to give in the way of fish and meat parts.

Some fish has high mercury count like tuna. I will try to stick to
wild grown, salmon, cod.

Like for instance, veal shanks have little round bones (sometimes as
little as 2 inches). Today I bought goat cubes, which have little
bone (cut).

Laura

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Giselle <megan.giselle@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, Laura!
> Do what I do when I buy necks and ground - sometimes
they are
> *too* cheap to pass up!
>
> Wad the ground onto an end of the turkey neck and freeze - you can
do a
> bunch of them this way. Just feed frozen and your dog will have a
bigger,
> meatier meal. Or, if you have some chicken necks, just stuff some
ground
> around several of them and freeze, etc. Works. You can do it with
beef
> heart, too.
>
> I feed little sardines or smelts the same way - usually get them
in a 2 lb
> bag, so one frozen/stuck together bag of 'em is 2 days worth. No
meal, or a
> pork neck bone or lamb thingy or a couple of beef ribs in a slab
will do 'er
> the next day.
>
> Oh, raw feeding is a figure it out as you go along kinda deal -
fun, and
> lovely for the dogs!
>
> TC
> Giselle
> with Bea in New Jersey
>
> <snip>
> >
> >
> > Now I see that I have to give large portion of meat
> > with some bone but last night gave him the turkey neck
> > and a chicken neck. Too much bone, am afraid if this
> > will be a problem. Please advise. I had already
> > bought a small supply of ground, but want to feed as
> > you say, whole portions. Do you have advise about
> > using up the ground.
> >
> > Thank you so much for your help. Can't wait to get
> > this straight.
> >
> > Laura
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Messages in this topic (11)
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3a. Re: Something to give during birth....
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 9:06 am ((PST))

"I am going to let her continue to eat however she likes and we will see
what she does with the bone towards the end."

Good plan. Mine craved organs towards the end and no bone, but I did not
supplement with anything, just let her eat whatever she wanted.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. Re: my dog isn't eating raw
Posted by: "Sarah" hecarte@hotmail.com sarah_uk_2000_2001
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 9:06 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Brandon Van Every" <bvanevery@...>
wrote:
>
> If I give him chicken or duck organs raw, he won't eat them. They're
> only bite sized so there's nothing difficult about them. He simply
> doesn't like them raw. If I nuke them in the microwave briefly, he'll
> gobble them up.

Hi Brandon,
I'm very new to raw feeding (18th day!) and my dog wouldn't eat the
chicken liver I got for him (I got 500g so I was a bit disappointed).

Anyway, a good tip I was given is freeze the liver then slice very
thinly with a knife. This worked a treat - he gobbles it up like that!

HTH,
Sarah (UK)

Messages in this topic (8)
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4b. Re: my dog isn't eating raw
Posted by: "Sylvia Tetzlaff" stetzlaff@yahoo.com stetzlaff
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 11:26 am ((PST))

My dog isn't eating raw either, but for a different
reason, I think. He's a 10 y/o 10 lb. Pomeranian
puppy mill rescue, and his some of his front teeth are
fractured, and others are broken, presumably from
trying to chew his way out of the cage. I've had him
to the vet; x-rays revealed the remnants of some of
the teeth are still under the gums, and the gums have
healed over. There were no obvious problems with
infection for these teeth, so the vet chose not to
extract them, just keep an eye on them.

I've offered him a chicken leg quarter on one
occasion, and a chicken breast on the other. I
ribboned the meat to give him something to start on,
and he did a good job of latching on, tearing, and
chewing, but the minute his teeth touched a solid
bone, he freaked out, got scared and ran away.

I think maybe he's reacting this way because he's
never chewed real food before, but I don't know how to
help him overcome his fear. I'm also worried that his
encounters with solid bone are causing him pain
because of his dental issues. I tried to feed him
more chicken breast this morning, but after last
night's 'bone scare', he wouldn't even try chewing the
meat.

Would appreciate hearing from anyone else out there
who has had a similar experience with their raw dogs.

Thanks,

Sylvia

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Messages in this topic (8)
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4c. Re: my dog isn't eating raw
Posted by: "vanevery0" bvanevery@gmail.com vanevery0
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 11:27 am ((PST))

> ### he'll learn, trust me. Been there, done that. Be patient...it
doesn't
> happen overnight or even in a few days ....you have fed him
commercial food
> for how many years?.. His instincts have been shut down for so
long...give
> him time and don't spoil or cajole!

He's 2 years old. In addition to "high end" kibble, I've spared him
no culinary flavor of the human variety. When we were poor, we used
to dive for pizza in the garbage can. When I got rich, then I'd just
order him a slice. I'm sparing on the non-meat items nowadays, for
his health, but he gets lotsa cooked meat leftovers. Maybe his palate
is as sophisticated as I hoped to make it, LOL! Last night he shared
triple creme brie and pate on crackers with me. My thought is, dogs
have an incredible sense of smell. Taste in humans is mostly smell,
so maybe it's true for dogs? So maybe they're capable of fully
appreciating everything. I have learned, however, to only give him a
bite at a time of fancy human food. Otherwise he'll wolf the whole
thing down in 30 seconds and then what's the point, he's not tasting
anything.

> ### simply a training issue and YOU'RE the boss. Give him the
item. When
> he drags it away from the spot you have designated, a firm 'no' or a
word of
> your choosing, even a growl whilst you remove the item is all that is
> required. Redirect him back to his spot, set it down, praise. This may
> take multiple times but eventually, he'll get it.

Ok I'm doing this now.

> If I *cook* the meat, get rid of the bones, and put it in front of
> him, it disappears in 30 seconds. Any quantity.
>
> ### once again, need I say more? Cooked meat is no better for him
> then kibble.

Well, considering that it's 100% human grade meat, not rendered meal
products, I wouldn't go that far. I strongly suspect that rendering
processes are the source of his allergies. It's not grain, there's no
grain in the kibble I was giving him. I bet "salmon meal" is the
culprit. Wonder how much salmon is in salmon meal, as opposed to just
dead stuff in general? What I've read is you have no way of knowing.
And, give that even "high end" kibbles like Innova got recalled /
killed dogs recently, I don't think anyone in the kibble industry has
control over the factories. I think they all just outsource to the
same factories that get sloppy and kill all the dogs. People blame
China but I've learned the USA Food and Drug Administration ain't on
the stick either. "Buying USA" won't save your dog's life. Yeah,
when I put it that way, *of course* any kind of human meat is better
than kibble, even if cooked. Your dog won't die from it.

> Of course, the cats should be eating raw as well but they're a bit
> trickier I have heard.

Actually, Thelma jolly well loves raw meat and comes around whenever
I'm trying to get Kodiak to eat it. Think I'll try converting her.
It's Mom's cat so she may not go for an entirely raw diet, but Thelma
will have fun. Louise hasn't shown tremendous interest but she's not
the pushy queen of the house. I might be able to get her interested.
Yes our cats are named "Thelma & Louise." Mom got divorced recently
so this is apropos!

> #### probably because of the aroma. Maybe tale the half
chicken...sear the
> skin for a couple of seconds in the pan, then serve. After a week
or two
> you won't need to do this any longer.

I did this today. I thought it smelled great! He did not eat it. I
cut the warmed up, slightly seared, mostly raw chicken into strips and
tried to get him to eat it. No luck. As an experiment, I fully
cooked it. He ate it all in short order, but he didn't eat
ravenously. It was only 1:30 pm and historically, he's not terribly
hungry at that time. So, I will try the trick again later in the day.

He has eaten chunks of raw duck meat in the past, that I fed him in
strips. So I don't think he has an inherent objection to it being
raw. But so far, he clearly prefers it cooked.

I also confirmed today that he doesn't care for chicken skin. Raw or
cooked, it appears to be too rubbery and fatty to be of interest.

Cheers,
Brandon Van Every

Messages in this topic (8)
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4d. Re: my dog isn't eating raw
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 11:38 am ((PST))

> ### once again, need I say more? Cooked meat is no better for him
> then kibble.

##### here is a snippet about 'cooked' meat. Feeding cooked meat is
feeding 'dead' meat, and the health issues over time by doing so are
staggering. It challenges their digestive systems to work overtime with an
unrecognisable protein. You show me a wolf with a bar-b-q and then we'll
talk.. ;-))

Among the many reason to avoid feeding commercial pet food, two predominate:

commercial foods are heat processed, thereby effectively destroying the

natural enzymes present in the ingredients and the fact that the vast

majority of pet foods are made with animal parts that have been determined

unfit for human consumption and have been treated with chemicals to ensure

they do not get back into the human food chain. Enzymes are an essential

aid in proper digestion of foods and supply the body with the energy needed

for such activities as the formation and elimination of urea and carbon

dioxide and other toxins from the kidneys, lungs, colon, liver, spleen and

skin created during the process of metabolism. Ingesting quantities of

contaminated and indigestible animal parts and plant material on a daily

basis cannot be considered conducive to good health. Studying carnivore

anatomy, physiology and eating habits show us that we are doing our domestic

friends a great disservice by not feeding the the way nature intende

He has eaten chunks of raw duck meat in the past, that I fed him in
strips. So I don't think he has an inherent objection to it being
raw. But so far, he clearly prefers it cooked.

I also confirmed today that he doesn't care for chicken skin. Raw or
cooked, it appears to be too rubbery and fatty to be of interest.

### you just haven't given this long enough. If you want the best for your
dog, you have to feed him as nature intended, period. It's not that he
cannot exist on cooked food, he can for awhile, but his health will
deteriorate FAST not to mention how the mouth rot will quickly escalate.

No chunks of meat cut... no hand feeding...none of it. If you carry on as
you are, he will continue to play games and refuse things. Do as I have
advised and within a week you will have a non-fussy dog who will eat what
you set out and respect you like you won't believe, don't do as any of us
advise and he will continue to turn his spoiled nose up at the food he is
supposed to eat. Simple as that.

Chia & Ricco
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4e. Re: my dog isn't eating raw
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 12:02 pm ((PST))

You could start with softer bones and see if that helps him. Get some
cornish game hens, their bones are so soft they are more like
cartilage. They are more expensive than older chickens, but that will
help you know if he can get over the bone issue. If he continues to be
upset by solid things touching his teeth you need to go back to the vet
and investigate having the bad teeth extracted. He might be able to
eat mush forever but if chomping a soft bone hurts his teeth and gums
it is likely he is in a constant state of dull pain.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Sylvia Tetzlaff <stetzlaff@...>
wrote:

> I've had him to the vet; x-rays revealed the remnants of some of
> > the teeth are still under the gums, and the gums have
> healed over. There were no obvious problems with
> infection for these teeth, so the vet chose not to
> extract them, just keep an eye on them.

Messages in this topic (8)
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5a. types of places to buy raw locally
Posted by: "j2dope17" j2dope17@yahoo.com j2dope17
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 11:27 am ((PST))

I did a bit of searching through old posts but didn't find quit what I
was looking for so sorry if this has been asked 1000 times before. I
live in Syracuse, NY and I am wondering what type of places are best
to find raw meat like cow ribs, chicken necks etc... The main
supermarkets have pre-packaged meats and not much selection on Meaty
bones. Should I be going to butcher shops, farms? Where are some
places I can get some good carcasses, whole fish and meaty bones
without spending a fortune. I can get frozen chicken quarters at a
grocery store near the house but thats about it unless I want to buy
pre-packaged ground stuff, which I don't. Thanks for the help!

-Joe

Messages in this topic (3)
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5b. Re: types of places to buy raw locally
Posted by: "Giselle" megan.giselle@gmail.com megangiselle
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 12:06 pm ((PST))

Hi, Joe!
What you need is The Lis List;

*http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/139618*

*Post #139618*
Tc
Giselle
with Bea in New Jersey

On Dec 3, 2007 1:24 PM, j2dope17 <j2dope17@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I did a bit of searching through old posts but didn't find quit what I
> was looking for so sorry if this has been asked 1000 times before. I
> live in Syracuse, NY and I am wondering what type of places are best
> to find raw meat like cow ribs, chicken necks etc...
>

> <snip>
>

> Thanks for the help!
>
> -Joe
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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5c. Re: types of places to buy raw locally
Posted by: "j2dope17" j2dope17@yahoo.com j2dope17
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 12:25 pm ((PST))

Giselle wrote:
>
> Hi, Joe!
> What you need is The Lis List;
>
> *http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/message/139618*

j2dope17 wrote:

> > I did a bit of searching through old posts but didn't find
quit what I
> > was looking for so sorry if this has been asked 1000 times
before. I
> > live in Syracuse, NY and I am wondering what type of places are
best
> > to find raw meat like cow ribs, chicken necks etc...

Thanks so much giselle that helps a lot! That was exactly what I was
looking for!
-Joe

Messages in this topic (3)
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6a. Concerned: throwing up chicken bone shards... what's going on?
Posted by: "Tiffany" tiff.bob@verizon.net tifferv67
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 11:27 am ((PST))

Hi everyone,

I'm new to raw feeding - have been working on it with my dog for about
the last two months. He's a big, 95-pound mixed breed German Shepherd
and who knows what else. He is 10 years old.

One of the staples in his diet has been raw chicken quarters, and he
seemed to be doing fine with them from the very beginning. However,
twice in the past week he has thrown up some fairly good sized pieces
of chicken bone, and I'm concerned. The first time, it was two of
those white
knuckle pieces and some little pieces. But today, it was some good
sized shards (2 - 3 inches long) and one of them was so sharp that I
pricked by finger when cleaning it up. I thought raw bones were not
brittle, but these certainly were.

I'm concerned that he's not handling these bones well and that they
could be doing damage. Any advice? Other info that might be important:

1) He doesn't seem to be sick - he hasn't thrown up anything other
than the chicken bones.

2) He does tend to wolf down his food, swallowing it after only
cracking it a few times. (He was kibble fed for almost 10 years, after
all, so he's pretty excited about his new diet.)

3) We give fairly small portions - 1/2 - 3/4 pounds of food, twice a
day. I know a lot of the raw feeding advocates recommend feeding once
a day, but I'm nervous about doing this. For one, he knows when it's
time to eat and comes a begging and I think would drive us all crazy
if we suddenly went to once a day. And two, he has a history of
throwing up stomach bile when his stomach is empty and he gets overly
hungry (although we haven't seen this as much with the new diet.)

Any advice anyone can give - I'd truly appreciate it.

Tiffany (& Coco)

Messages in this topic (3)
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6b. Re: Concerned: throwing up chicken bone shards... what's going on?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 11:56 am ((PST))

"For one, he knows when it's time to eat and comes a begging and I think
would drive us all crazy
if we suddenly went to once a day. And two, he has a history of throwing up
stomach bile when his stomach is empty"

On smaller pieces like chicken quarters, mine tend to give a couple crunches
and swallow too. You'd do better by giving him a 1/2 a chicken once a day -
it forces them to rip and chew. But sometimes they will still tear off a
piece and swallow it whole. Sounds like yours hasn't adjusted to fully
digesting the bigger chicken bones. There are digestive enzymes you can add
to help digest bones. Or just let his system get used to it over time.
Mine will still occassionally poop a shard or too if I've fed too large a
meal.

Throwing up stomach bile is from their stomach expecting food at a set time
of day. Mine did this too until I started mixing up the times I feed them.
Have never done it since.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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6c. Re: Concerned: throwing up chicken bone shards... what's going on?
Posted by: "Tiffany" tiff.bob@verizon.net tifferv67
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 12:25 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Tina Berry" <k9baron@...> wrote:
>
Sounds like yours hasn't adjusted to fully
> digesting the bigger chicken bones. There are digestive enzymes you
can add
> to help digest bones. Or just let his system get used to it over
time.

Thanks for your reply. We are giving him "Nutrigest" which is a
digestive aid recommended by our (new) vet when switching to raw.

> Throwing up stomach bile is from their stomach expecting food at a set
time
> of day. Mine did this too until I started mixing up the times I feed
them.
> Have never done it since.

You are right - it's when he's expecting food and it doesn't come. When
you started moving their feeding time around, how long did it take them
to adjust? Where there a few days or weeks of getting sick at their
"old" feeding time?

Tiffany

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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7a. DEER MEAT
Posted by: "Diana Jones" dianajones@hughes.net msmanchester2003
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 11:27 am ((PST))

Can you feed a deer head? I hit a jack pot and have a source of deer
meat. I go thru all of his "scraps" and take what I want. Also, does
deer need to be frozen before feeding to the dogs?

Thank you,
Diana
Texas

Messages in this topic (3)
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7b. Re: DEER MEAT
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 11:56 am ((PST))

"Can you feed a deer head?" Yes.

"I hit a jack pot and have a source of deer meat. I go thru all of his
"scraps" and take what I want. Also, does
deer need to be frozen before feeding to the dogs?"

No. I feed mine right from the butcher before I bag it all up and freeze it
in 8lb bags.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (3)
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7c. Re: DEER MEAT
Posted by: "mgitaville" mgitaville@hotmail.com mgitaville
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 11:56 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Diana Jones" <dianajones@...> wrote:
>
> Can you feed a deer head? I hit a jack pot and have a source of deer
> meat. I go thru all of his "scraps" and take what I want. Also, does
> deer need to be frozen before feeding to the dogs?
>
> Thank you,
> Diana
> Texas
>

******A guy I know feeds his frenchies and basenjis (sp?) deer heads
without any issues. He offered me one, but with my picky "no fur
please" eater I knew it wouldn't get eaten.

As for freezing, I think a 4 week freeze is often recommended, but I
know many of us have fed a meal or scraps of deer while bagging or
cutting that was fresh and then just freeze the rest.

Marguerita

Messages in this topic (3)
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8a. Re: Here is a new twist on this issue
Posted by: "arabianbluedobe" arabianbluedobe@yahoo.com arabianbluedobe
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 11:56 am ((PST))

I heard you say beef can cause cannon butt, but in my experience, with
my dogs anyway, It is pork that causes the cannon butt.
April

Messages in this topic (14)
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9a. Re: Raw Book list
Posted by: "arabianbluedobe" arabianbluedobe@yahoo.com arabianbluedobe
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 11:56 am ((PST))

Since there are no good raw fedder books out there, maybe we should all
get together and write one based on fact and a lot of personal
stories. I would definately buy it. I'll also help with the writing.
Any takers?
April

Messages in this topic (6)
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10a. Re: frozen/fresh
Posted by: "mgitaville" mgitaville@hotmail.com mgitaville
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 12:25 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Cathy Richmond" <batcathy@...>
wrote:
>
> I am curious as to if there is a difference with digestion between
> fresh or frozen. Not one of my dogs will eat if food is too cold so i
> must warm it in a sink of hot water.The frozen smelt in summer being
> the exception and that is pushed about untill thawed. I had read that
> if we as humans drink cold with our meals it takes longer for
digestion
> to begin.It was based on studies why oriental peoples have less
stomach
> issues as they always start with hot drink or hot soup.
> Cathy
>

******First let me just say that you have been trained well by your
dogs! :) They may prefer it warm, but if you did not give in to their
demand of warming it I assure you they would eat it cold.

Second, I can not answer your question about digestion entirely, but
many of us have had to start dogs on frozen meals, in particular,
rescues who tend to gulp their food. Once they realize they are in
ahome where food comes regularly they are often able to be fed
paritally frozen, and then completely thawed food without the gulping.
I have never noticed a difference in feeding frozen vs. room temp
though except it takes longer to eat. Maybe digestion takes longer b/c
they eat slower when frozen?

Marguerita

Messages in this topic (2)
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Feed Pets Raw Food

Monday, December 3, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12341

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