Feed Pets Raw Food: [rawfeeding] Digest Number 12342

There are 25 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Concerned: throwing up chicken bone shards... what's going on?
From: Andrea
1b. Re: Concerned: throwing up chicken bone shards... what's going on?
From: Sandee Lee
1c. Re: Concerned: throwing up chicken bone shards... what's going on?
From: Tina Berry

2a. Re: my dog isn't eating raw
From: vanevery0

3a. Re: types of places to buy raw locally
From: meg_helmes

4. First raw piece of chicken successfully consumed!!!
From: Annette

5a. Re: frozen/fresh
From: sarahfalkner
5b. Re: frozen/fresh/Sara
From: Cathy

6a. Re: Newish Raw Feeder and a Couple of Questions
From: costrowski75

7a. Re: DEER MEAT
From: costrowski75
7b. Re: DEER MEAT
From: Candee Brey

8a. Re: New Rawfeeder - Hi
From: costrowski75

9a. Re: Here is a new twist on this issue
From: Morledzep@aol.com

10a. evils of cooked meat
From: vanevery0
10b. Re: evils of cooked meat
From: Chia
10c. Re: evils of cooked meat
From: Sandee Lee
10d. Re: evils of cooked meat
From: vanevery0
10e. Re: evils of cooked meat
From: darkstardog

11.1. Salmon Oil
From: Sai Simonson
11.2. Re: Salmon Oil
From: Tina Berry
11.3. Re: Salmon Oil
From: vanevery0

12a. Re: frozen/fresh/Marguerita
From: Cathy

13a. Re: Raw Book list
From: spricketysprock

14. DEER MEAT, whats cws?
From: Michelle R

15a. Re: Question about freezer burned meat.
From: vanevery0

Messages
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1a. Re: Concerned: throwing up chicken bone shards... what's going on?
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 12:57 pm ((PST))

> When you started moving their feeding time around, how long did it
> take them to adjust? Where there a few days or weeks of getting sick
> at their "old" feeding time?

With my GSP mix it took about four days of bile vomit at what he
determined should be "feeding time". It's hard at first to just clean
it up and go along with the day, but he and I have both been much
happier with a relaxed feeding schedule.

Andrea

Messages in this topic (6)
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1b. Re: Concerned: throwing up chicken bone shards... what's going on?
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 1:05 pm ((PST))

Tiffany,

Nutrigest is a probiotic. I don't see any ingredients that would assist in
digestion of meat and fat. For that you need a digestive enzyme containing
ingredients such as pancreatin, ox bile, lipase, etc. I really don't think
the majority of dogs require any help at all when switching. They have
plenty of enzymes and probiotics.

As far as I know, there are no enzyme products that will help in digesting
bone.

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "Tiffany" <tiff.bob@verizon.net>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Tina Berry" <k9baron@...> wrote:
> >
> Sounds like yours hasn't adjusted to fully
> > digesting the bigger chicken bones. There are digestive enzymes you
> can add
> > to help digest bones. Or just let his system get used to it over
> time.
>
> Thanks for your reply. We are giving him "Nutrigest" which is a
> digestive aid recommended by our (new) vet when switching to raw.

Messages in this topic (6)
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1c. Re: Concerned: throwing up chicken bone shards... what's going on?
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 1:15 pm ((PST))

"it's when he's expecting food and it doesn't come. When you started moving
their feeding time around, how long did it take them to adjust? Where there
a few days or weeks of getting sick at their "old" feeding time?"

I started by varying earlier by 1-2 hours, then started more and more.
Never did throw up bile again. Now I feed them whenever. So if you feed
them earlier by an hour, they won't get sick, then the next day feed them 2
hours earlier etc. So then after a week I just started feeding them
whenever.

--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

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Messages in this topic (6)
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2a. Re: my dog isn't eating raw
Posted by: "vanevery0" bvanevery@gmail.com vanevery0
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 1:15 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "vanevery0" <bvanevery@...> wrote:
>
> Last night he shared
> triple creme brie and pate on crackers with me.
>
> > #### probably because of the aroma. Maybe take the half
> chicken...sear the
> > skin for a couple of seconds in the pan, then serve. After a week
> or two
> > you won't need to do this any longer.
>
> I did this today. I thought it smelled great! He did not eat it. I
> cut the warmed up, slightly seared, mostly raw chicken into strips and
> tried to get him to eat it. No luck. As an experiment, I fully
> cooked it. He ate it all in short order, but he didn't eat
> ravenously. It was only 1:30 pm and historically, he's not terribly
> hungry at that time. So, I will try the trick again later in the day.

1 hour later, he threw everything up. The vomit had a strong yellow
color, which I have not seen previously. Possibly that's the color of
the crackers. So, no brie or pate for awhile, and no crackers at all.
He's had brie and pate in the past and not thrown up, but they may
not be the greatest things to give him, and I'm not sure what quantity
I gave him last night. I think I was a little too generous.
Oftentimes I only give him a taste of the food, so that he has the
culinary experience and doesn't feel left out, but isn't eating enough
to cause him stomach upset.

So, I can't take today's "searing trial" as any indication of
anything. His stomach was upset before I even gave him any chicken, I
think; it would explain his relative lack of enthusiasm for even the
cooked chicken. Maybe he'll like seared meat just fine when his
stomach is normal.

BTW I've noticed he very much likes raw blood. He will lick a whole
chicken thoroughly to get the blood off it.

Cheers,
Brandon Van Every

Messages in this topic (14)
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3a. Re: types of places to buy raw locally
Posted by: "meg_helmes" mhelmes@gmail.com meg_helmes
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 1:16 pm ((PST))

Hello Joe!
(& anyone else living in NY from Buffalo to Rochester to Syracuse):

One great way to get a good variety of meat and cheaper bulk prices is
to join a co-op. Check out WNYRaw on yahoo groups
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/WNYRaw/

We do our distribution from Rochester, but there are several people
from the Syracuse area who take turns coming up to Rochester to pick
up orders, or someone drives down to a Syracuse exit and people meet
up there. This weekend I am driving out from Buffalo to get a deer
carcass, some turkey necks, beef hearts, locally farmed and dehydrated
chicken and livers strips for treats. Check it out! Even if you don't
have a big freezer,you can split cases with other people who are
ordering. Plus, its a great group of people who feed raw and love to
talk dogs, which also fun!

~Meg

I
> live in Syracuse, NY and I am wondering what type of places are best
> to find raw meat like cow ribs, chicken necks etc... The main
> supermarkets have pre-packaged meats and not much selection on Meaty
> bones. Should I be going to butcher shops, farms? Where are some
> places

Messages in this topic (4)
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4. First raw piece of chicken successfully consumed!!!
Posted by: "Annette" SLib700@aol.com annettedeutsch
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 1:28 pm ((PST))

Hallo everyone! I just wanted to report that I started to feed raw as
of today.I gave my dachshund a chicken drumstick,I was wondering if she
would eat it but as it turns out there was no cause to wonder,she took
it to the livingroom (yes, another livingroom feeder)where it got
devoured in no time at all.That was about 3 hours ago and at the moment
she's beside me snoring up a storm,no problems so far as far as
vomiting. I plan on giving her another piece tonight which I hope will
not be too much(she weighs 26lb.) Annette.

Messages in this topic (1)
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5a. Re: frozen/fresh
Posted by: "sarahfalkner" Sarah.Falkner@gmail.com sarahfalkner
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 2:05 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "mgitaville" <mgitaville@...> wrote:
>
> --- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Cathy Richmond" <batcathy@>
> wrote:
> >
> > I am curious as to if there is a difference with digestion between
> > fresh or frozen. Not one of my dogs will eat if food is too cold so i
> > must warm it in a sink of hot water.

> ******First let me just say that you have been trained well by your
> dogs! :) They may prefer it warm, but if you did not give in to their
> demand of warming it I assure you they would eat it cold.
>
> Second, I can not answer your question about digestion entirely, but

> Marguerita
>

I don't know if this is one of those ways in which cats and dogs differ, but in my
experience, cats, if they actually eat some too-cold food (which my current cats will only
do if it's their favorite cut of beef that they are piggy for, or if we come home much later
than expected and they're ravenous), will often throw it up, and/or have diarrhea. As I've
certainly gotten stomachaches, headaches and GI distress myself from eating ice cream or
drinking chilled drinks in the summer, I'm guessing that some other individuals from
various species have similar discomfort. Another thing about cold or frozen food is that it
has even less odor than room- or body-temperature raw meat--which seems to make it
less attractive to cats, though the same piece of meat a couple of hours later is very
interesting. My cats are not prima donnas and generally eat just about everything, except
food when it's cold. Since I figured this out, I usually have thawed it out enough and/or
put it in warm water just before serving, but if I don't have time to do that, if I put the food
out and leave it, they just wait until it's room-temp and then eat it. Unless it's strong-
smelling beef...

Well, obviously, eating cold food slowly enough that it is completely warmed by the time it
reaches the stomach would be ideal, but even though my cats and myself all know our
next meal is secure, I guess none of us has yet learned to be as smart as Marguerita's
dogs! But I have to say, if we are following a Prey Model diet and trying to replicate the
natural eating experience as best as possible, I guess I would be interested to know why
it's okay to serve still-frozen food? Could there not in fact be something crucial about
temperature for optimum health?

Sarah, hominid
Henry & Ivan, felidae
Quercus & Ilex, mustelidae

Messages in this topic (5)
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5b. Re: frozen/fresh/Sara
Posted by: "Cathy" batcathy@sbcglobal.net batcathy2002
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 6:38 pm ((PST))

Each one of mine is very different so it may just be an individual system as to cold/warm. I have never seen anything in print about it.
Cathy

C Richmond
Lesmar's CC
Battle Creek, Mi.

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6a. Re: Newish Raw Feeder and a Couple of Questions
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 2:35 pm ((PST))

Jessica MacMillan <spotted101@...> wrote:
>> I am one of the people that does veggies. I do it for about a week
and then not do it for about two weeks. I also add liver
occasionally, chicken gizzards, heart, etc.
>
> I do have some questions:
>
> 1. Tripe? Is it an essential in the diet it? I am contemplating
this one.. Dogs will love it.
*****
Raw green tripe is more nutritious for dogs than vegetables are but
as with vegetables, tripe is not essential. And green tripe is not a
substitute for vegetables either, if you were thinking along those
lines.

> 2. Deer bones. I do feed venison and olive oil. I picked up some
deer shanks with meet on them. They are cut into about 4 inch long
bones... How do people feel about deer bones?
*****
Deer bones are either edible or they are not, depending on the
capabilities of the dog. Bare naked bones are never useful, but
bones with meat on them at the very least offer meat. If the bones
are generally meatless, an argument can still be made for the "pick
clean" benefit.

Unfortunately, the bone sections you got are not large enough for a
big dog to pick clean. I would not feed those deer bones to my
retrievers. I would however be willing to give them to my 10lb cat.
For my retrievers I would cut off any available meat and toss the
bones.

There is no functional nutritional reason to feed your dogs olive
oil. They have no need for Omega 9; they have no need for any oil
that is not animal-based. You are not feeding omnivores or
herbivores, you are feeding carnivores. If you are looking to
supplement with any oil, it should be fish oil or other animal-based
oil: Omega 3.

> 3. Fish... Living in WI and having a friend who hunts and fishes, I
am wondering what people thing of fish heads, etc...
*****
Fish heads--whole fish--are generally a nice source of high quality
animal protein, so if you are looking for ways to broaden your menu,
fish is a good bet. If you are concerned about parasites, freeze the
fish for a week or two. If you are concerned about toxic
accumulations, figure that if a human is willing to eat fish from any
given water source, you can feed the fish to your dogs.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (13)
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7a. Re: DEER MEAT
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 2:38 pm ((PST))

"Diana Jones" <dianajones@...> wrote:
>
> Can you feed a deer head?
*****
Yes.

Also, does
> deer need to be frozen before feeding to the dogs?
*****
No, but you can if you want to. Makes some people feel better. It's
up to you.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (5)
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7b. Re: DEER MEAT
Posted by: "Candee Brey" candee@netnet.net candeeloubrey
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 6:38 pm ((PST))

I would find out if the deer were taken in a CWS area before I would
give it to the dogs.
Cats can get CWS.

Candee
Wisconsin
On Dec 3, 2007, at 1:26 PM, Diana Jones wrote:

> Can you feed a deer head? I hit a jack pot and have a source of deer
> meat. I go thru all of his "scraps" and take what I want. Also, does
> deer need to be frozen before feeding to the dogs?
>
> Thank you,
> Diana
> Texas
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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8a. Re: New Rawfeeder - Hi
Posted by: "costrowski75" Chriso75@AOL.COM costrowski75
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 2:58 pm ((PST))

"Laura" <lasme8@...> wrote:
>> Could I ask, what NOT to give in the way of fish and meat parts.
*****
Please remember to trim your posts. It is highly probable that
untrimmed posts will be deleted. Thanks.

Ideally, you want to offer whole fish and let the dog decide what
parts are edible. Other than catfish barbs or whatever they're
called that I would cut off if I were feeding catfish, I can't think
of any other processing that you need consider.

> Some fish has high mercury count like tuna.
*****
It is albacore that offers the highest levels of mercury. Other less
desirable tuna with darker, more oily flesh present less of a
hazard.

In all cases, ocean fish that grow quickly to a small adult size will
be less of a mercury/toxic accumulation problem than fish that grow
slowly to large or giant adulthood. Additionally, fish that are wild
caught but sustainably harvested will be "better" than fish whose
wild populations are diminished. And of course those ocean fish that
meet the above tests and offer high levels of Omega 3 fatty acid are
the total, absolute winners in the "fish as protein variety" catagory.

> Like for instance, veal shanks have little round bones (sometimes
as
> little as 2 inches). Today I bought goat cubes, which have little
> bone (cut).
*****
These are good for stewing, braising and maybe even bbq but they are
too small for most dogs. I would not hesitate to feed them to my
cats though.
Chris O

Messages in this topic (13)
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9a. Re: Here is a new twist on this issue
Posted by: "Morledzep@aol.com" Morledzep@aol.com morledzep
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 3:02 pm ((PST))

In a message dated 12/3/2007 11:56:44 AM Pacific Standard Time,
arabianbluedobe@yahoo.com writes:

I heard you say beef can cause cannon butt, but in my experience, with
my dogs anyway, It is pork that causes the cannon butt.

April,

that is why one of the most common sayings on this list is "know thy dog",
every dog reacts to various things differently, and all dogs live up (or down)
to their owner's expectations.

Catherine R.

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products.
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10a. evils of cooked meat
Posted by: "vanevery0" bvanevery@gmail.com vanevery0
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 3:02 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Chia <chia.m@...> wrote:
>
> > ### once again, need I say more? Cooked meat is no better for him
> > then kibble.
>
> And, give that even "high end" kibbles like Innova got recalled /
> killed dogs recently, I don't think anyone in the kibble industry
> has control over the factories. [...] any kind of human meat is
> better than kibble, even if cooked. Your dog won't die from it.
>
> ##### here is a snippet about 'cooked' meat. Feeding cooked meat
> is
> feeding 'dead' meat, and the health issues over time by doing so are
> staggering. It challenges their digestive systems to work overtime
> with an unrecognisable protein.
>
> "commercial foods are heat processed, thereby effectively destroying
> the natural enzymes present in the ingredients and the fact that
> the vast majority of pet foods are made with animal parts that have
> been determined unfit for human consumption and have been treated
> with chemicals to ensure they do not get back into the human food
> chain."

I'm not here to advocate cooked food, but I feel you're conflating 2
health issues. One is very serious: the chemicals, dead crap, and
completely inorganic crap in rendered "meals" found in kibble.
There's plenty of data on this, it's clearly bad for dogs.

A loss of enzymes in cooked meat, on the other hand, is probably just
"not ideal." People make the same arguments about human food, and
despite our non-ideal sources of enzymes, vitamins, minerals, some
people live to be 100+. I bet there's very little data on dogs that
eat only cooked meat and organs + raw bones to help clean their
teeth, as almost nobody feeds their dogs this way nowadays. Nor is
there any industrial interest in tracking this, as there is with
kibble. It's important to realize that before modern kibble, dogs did
eat the leftovers or whatever else they could scrounge up. Doesn't
seem like we have good data from pre-WW II, but the anecdotes seem to
be that dogs were healthier.

If you've got some definitive evidence that human grade cooked meat
is terribly bad for dogs, that the proteins in cooked meat are
"unrecognizable" to their digestive tracts, I'm open to reviewing
it. But let's not conflate that with kibble issues. Kibble is waste
disposal and industrially unsafe, even amongst the most well-meaning
"trying to do the right thing" dog food companies. You're preaching
to the choir on that one.

Cheers,
Brandon Van Every

Messages in this topic (14)
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10b. Re: evils of cooked meat
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 3:07 pm ((PST))

### chapter 4 of Raw Meaty Bones Promote Health will answer all of the
above questions. I believe you can read each individual chapter, if you
don't own the book, @

www.rawmeatybones.com

Chia & Ricco

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10c. Re: evils of cooked meat
Posted by: "Sandee Lee" rlee@plix.com mariasmom2001
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 6:19 pm ((PST))

Not sure if this is what you are looking for, but there is some info about
cooked meats here....

http://www.dogtorj.net/id51.html

Sandee & the Dane Gang

From: "vanevery0" <bvanevery@gmail.com>

Messages in this topic (14)
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10d. Re: evils of cooked meat
Posted by: "vanevery0" bvanevery@gmail.com vanevery0
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 7:33 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, Chia <chia.m@...> wrote:
>
> ### chapter 4 of Raw Meaty Bones Promote Health will answer all
of the
> above questions. I believe you can read each individual chapter, if you
> don't own the book, @

www.rawmeatybones.com

Only the beginning of any given chapter. Which in the case of Chapter
4, was a useless metaphor about car exhaust. I guess they want me to
buy the book. :-) I've learned that the author more recently wrote
"Work Wonders: Feed Your Dog Raw Meaty Bones".

http://www.rawmeatybones.com/book-ww.php

I'm also learning about controversies in the anti-kibble universe from
the articles on his website. For instance, is the evolutionary
pressure of a natural dog diet based on nutritional content of various
body parts, or the cleaning action of bones upon the teeth to prevent
peridontal disease? How would one separate out the variables of the
"natural experiment?" Are statements liked "cooked meat is bad," "the
diet shouldn't have so many bones," "there should be a greater or
lesser variety of organs in the diet" based on scientific evidence, or
conjectures that Nature has devised a diet perfectly *and* monotonically?

I'll add my own complicating question: we know that modern,
man-polluted environments *suck*. How does that affect what's a good
eating pattern in the wild nowadays? Environments have sucked pretty
much since we've been measuring wild animal health. Maybe you win if
you manage to avoid whatever part of the body holds the most mercury.
Anyways, who says the wild animals we pay attention to are winning?
Maybe various populations die sooner rather than later, just living
long enough to reproduce and propagate the species.

Cheers,
Brandon Van Every

Messages in this topic (14)
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10e. Re: evils of cooked meat
Posted by: "darkstardog" darkstardog@charter.net darkstardog
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 7:33 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Sandee Lee" <rlee@...> wrote:
>
> Not sure if this is what you are looking for, but there is some info
about
> cooked meats here....
>
> http://www.dogtorj.net/id51.html

That info is very mixed in quality. Actually, it read as if he cut and
pasted a lot of snippets of information into one document and never
bothered to edit.

If it were true, as he implies, that all of certain amino acids were
destroyed at 43 degrees C, then no kibble-fed dogs could thrive or
reproduce, and neither could people since we eat almost all of our
protein sources cooked. It is sloppy writing to word something to
suggest that. Some percent of certain amino acids may be lost at some
temperatures; that is different from impying they all are lost.

Denaturation of proteins makes them unusable for their original
function. But when we, or dogs, eat proteins, we need the amino acids
from them - we don't need them for their original function. So in that
way, denaturation is not a problem. It's my impression that depending
on the protein, denaturation may make digestion easier or harder
depending on how the digestion sites of the protein are exposed. I
think there can also be a problem for digesion if crosslinks are
formed that aren't digestible by the gut enzymes. But again, we eat
essentially all our meat cooked, and kibble-fed dogs eat all their
protein cooked. If this denaturation were so serious as to be
prohibitive for protein digestion, we would all be suffering from
malnutrition. It's a comparative thing. Raw may be better, but cooked
isn't a disaster in the way that article suggests.

He mentions Kouchakoff. Kouchakoff was a researcher in the '30s. I
have never found anything in current research that suggests any truth
in his findings. The only place his name ever seems to appera is on
raw food sites. His results as far as I could tell sounded flaky. I'm
not impressed that he was mentioned in this article.

And the article claims that because the enzymes in raw foods are
destroyed by cooking, the body's enzyme potential is depleted,
shortening life span. There is no such thing as enzyme potential; this
is bogus. Again, he gets no respect from me for including that bit in
his article.

Marty

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11.1. Salmon Oil
Posted by: "Sai Simonson" saiczarina@comcast.net keikokat
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 3:43 pm ((PST))

Going for the salmon oil, how many capsules/teaspoons? Daily, weekly?
One dog is 108 lbs, the other is 66 lbs.

Not sure if I should go for capsules or liquid in bottle? I am thinking
bottle.

Sai
--

Messages in this topic (130)
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11.2. Re: Salmon Oil
Posted by: "Tina Berry" k9baron@gmail.com k9antje
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 6:38 pm ((PST))

"Not sure if I should go for capsules or liquid in bottle? I am thinking
bottle."

The bottle is more cost effective. Lots of people recommend Grizzley Salmon
Oil. I give 4 capsules each to my bunch daily. They weigh 85-97 lbs.
--
Tina Berry - MT
Kriegshund German Shepherds
Working Lines ~ Naturally Reared
www.kriegshundgsds.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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11.3. Re: Salmon Oil
Posted by: "vanevery0" bvanevery@gmail.com vanevery0
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 7:33 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "ephen" <stephenc@...> wrote:
>
> Salmon oil is very expensive here (Taiwan). Would
> you say it is necessary?

I am merely an informed amateur at this, but...

The animal-based Omega-3's that you're after are DHA and EPA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega-3_fatty_acid#Fish
There are lotsa kinds of fish that have them, so "Salmon" oil is
surely pointless. "Fish" oil is what you need. For instance, cod
liver oil is readily available at most pharmacies in the USA. An
older generation used to take it for all manner of ailments, so it is
still sold to the geriatrics.

Flax is high in plant-based ALA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega-3_fatty_acid#Flax
I read somewhere that dogs can't convert this into a usable omega-3,
i.e. dogs aren't plant eaters and you shouldn't be feeding a
plant-based omega-3 to your dog. But I can't find a reference for
that right now.

I would be very careful about where your fish oil comes from. Mercury
poisoning and other industrial pollutants in fish are common nowadays.
A particularly big offender is China, right next door to you. I
wouldn't buy Chinese food anything for anyone: man, beast, houseplant,
don't care. I haven't figured out any ironclad protocol for ensuring
that a fish oil isn't tainted. I'm hoping that if they sell it in a
USA pharmacy, it doesn't contain heavy elements. But I could be
mistaken, as the USA's FDA isn't exercising much oversight on food
supplements.

It is possible to overdose your dog, or a human, on vitamins that are
not water-soluble. For instance, Vitamin A.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retinol#Retinoid_overdose_.28toxicity.29
I have no idea what a "correct" dose of fish oil for my 65 lb. dog is,
so for now I've stopped giving him any.

Do DHA and EPA omega-3's have beneficial effects for your dog? I'm
not sure. Anecdotally, my dog's coat might be shinier and less itchy,
but I really can't tell. It's wintertime in the USA now, so there's a
lot of dry heat in the house. His coat is kinda dry lately, but
there's an obvious reason for it.

My dog has some kind of allergy. His ears are irritated and his anal
glands need to be expressed too often. Dry coat could be due to
allergy also, or it could just be the heat in the house. My vet has
suggested that it could be a food allergy. So, I'm trying to do a
dietary purge / simplification to see if that helps him. That's what
brought me to the raw feeding list. As part that purge, I stopped
giving him the cod liver oil, because its actual effects on him are
unknown. For all I know, it could be part of the problem. Either
because cod liver oil happens to be bad for him, or *the particular*
cod liver oil I gave him is contaminated with something, or I'm just
giving him too much of it, who knows. Right now I don't want any
variables.

Does your dog have any health issues that you're currently trying to
resolve?

> green peppers, garlic, cucumber, spinach, kelp, alfalfa, flax oil,
> apple cider vinegar, omega 3 oils (not refrigerated from pet store),
> yams (cooked), banana and pineapple and carrots (treats)
> ---> OCCASIONALLY!!

Have you considered the possibility of allergic reactions to any or
all of these ingredients? I was feeding my dog "high end" Solid Gold
no-grain kibble, and no-grain Innova kibble before that. They have
all that "great stuff" in them. For all I know, one of those
ingredients could be causing him the allergy problem. So to heck with
them, for now.

For all I know, my dog could be allergic to pollen. Apparently that's
ultra-common in North Carolina, USA. In the middle of the state, we
get weird pollens both from coastal trees and mountain trees.

Cheers,
Brandon Van Every

Messages in this topic (130)
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12a. Re: frozen/fresh/Marguerita
Posted by: "Cathy" batcathy@sbcglobal.net batcathy2002
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 6:38 pm ((PST))

LOL- you are more than right about training. I know prey is warm but as cold frozen leftovers have been scavenged I was just curious.
Cathy

C Richmond
Lesmar's CC
Battle Creek, Mi.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (5)
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13a. Re: Raw Book list
Posted by: "spricketysprock" jess.hamway@gmail.com spricketysprock
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 6:38 pm ((PST))

That's a great idea! I've thought about that before and would love to
contribute. I don't have as much as experience as the others but am a
decent writer/English major. :D

Jess & Toby

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "arabianbluedobe"
<arabianbluedobe@...> wrote:
>
> Since there are no good raw fedder books out there, maybe we should
all
> get together and write one based on fact and a lot of personal
> stories. I would definately buy it. I'll also help with the
writing.
> Any takers?
> April
>

Messages in this topic (7)
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14. DEER MEAT, whats cws?
Posted by: "Michelle R" crested_dog8@yahoo.com crested_dog8
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 7:33 pm ((PST))

whats cws?

Michelle Radcliff
Mengshi Chinese Cresteds
http://www.geocities.com/crested_dog8/mengshihome.html

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Messages in this topic (1)
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15a. Re: Question about freezer burned meat.
Posted by: "vanevery0" bvanevery@gmail.com vanevery0
Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 8:09 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "Anndrea" <anndreae@...> wrote:
> Chris wrote:
> > It will lose nutritional value little by little
>
> every time I put Holly on raw, she gets diarrhea.
>
> Anyway, my point is that my freezer is in my sister's garage (plugged
> in of course) and has a bunch of meat in it...I just wondered if there
> was any reason to keep it.

So, perfectly edible, human grade meat gives your dog diarrhea. To
such a dog, you plan to give 10-year old "crap meat" that probably has
no nutritional value whatsoever. What are you thinking? Haven't you
ever gotten the runs from eating a can of tuna? If the meat is low
quality it's low quality, don't "save" it for your dog. I have no
idea when meat goes bad but c'mon, 10 years??

If your dog always gets diarrhea from eating something, that's a sign
that your dog shouldn't be eating it. It means its innards are being
messed up a lot, i.e. you're doing damage. For this reason, my dog
never gets cooked beef short ribs that have been chopped by a meat
cleaver. They are too sharp in his digestive tract, they would always
give him diarrhea. I'd see the little square chips come out his other
end. Never had any problem with large cooked beef knuckle or shin
bones that he has to gnaw on, they are not sharp. A cooked beef bone
is theoretically not supposed to be bad for a dog, but my experience
is that if the bone is sharply cut, it's a problem. So no cooked
T-bones for him either. He's doing fine with raw chicken bones lately.

I've given my dog all kinds of human food, just so he can experience
the flavor of life. If he vomits or has diarrhea, he doesn't get it
anymore. If it doesn't go all the way through him "clean" then as far
as I'm concerned it's not food.

Cheers,
Brandon Van Every

Messages in this topic (4)
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Feed Pets Raw Food

Monday, December 3, 2007

[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12342

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