[rawfeeding] Digest Number 12345

There are 22 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: How to stop him from traveling around the house with food
From: T Smith
1b. Re: How to stop him from traveling around the house with food
From: Andrea
1c. Re: How to stop him from traveling around the house with food
From: Yasuko herron

2.1. Re: New to Raw
From: SLib700@aol.com
2.2. Re: New to Raw
From: Andrea
2.3. Re: New to Raw
From: Casey Post
2.4. Re: New to Raw
From: Yasuko herron
2.5. Re: New to Raw
From: Yasuko herron
2.6. Re: New to Raw
From: carnesbill

3a. Re: Mucosy & Bloody Stools
From: dmckenna43
3b. Re: Mucosy & Bloody Stools
From: Chia
3c. Re: Mucosy & Bloody Stools
From: dmckenna43
3d. Re: Mucosy & Bloody Stools
From: Chia

4a. Re: Anal Glands
From: Mary Tinder

5. Amos and I - we're new here!
From: Heather

6a. Re: Salmon oil versus capsules
From: Yasuko herron
6b. Re: Salmon oil versus capsules
From: Mallory Kwiatkowski

7a. Re: am I feeding enough?
From: Yasuko herron

8a. Re: Feeding venison
From: Yasuko herron

9a. Re: Feeding organs;do we need to washthem before feeding???
From: Yasuko herron

10a. Parasites?
From: sltahoek9s
10b. Re: Parasites?
From: carnesbill

Messages
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1a. Re: How to stop him from traveling around the house with food
Posted by: "T Smith" coldbeach@gmail.com lhasaspots
Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 1:40 pm ((PST))

EDITED BY MODERATOR. TRIM YOUR MESSAGES!

Hi Jay.
I feed my Danes in their crates & one used to eat out of the crate & sneak
over to the leather couch!
It only took a few times to put his meat back on a towel & now he'll eat on
that.
We finally did get the 45" tall crate so he can have his own to eat in.
Either way, it worked for us.
My middle Dane pup (7 months old) swallows his food before I can get the
bowl to the floor!!! The oldest (9 months) likes to "chew...
savor....enjoy" his meal! That's why his crate was a must because he needs
alot more time to eat. The 6 month old is in between them both for her
eating habits! The 9 month old snubbed his nose to some wonderful country
shoulder pork the other day! Blew my mind but the beef heart is yummy for
him!
Trina
Chip (deaf Dalmatian)
Casper (deaf Great Dane)
Whisper (deaf Great Dane)
Louie (hearing Great Dane)
Joey (deaf & blind Lhasa Apso)
Amy (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Cassandra (disabled Lhasa Apso)
Mr Paris (Lhasa Apso)
Chloe (deaf & blind Spaniel mix)
VISIT ALL OUR KIDS AT: http://s48.photobucket.com/albums/f232/coldbeach/

Messages in this topic (9)
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1b. Re: How to stop him from traveling around the house with food
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 2:41 pm ((PST))

I started feeding both of my pups in a crate and it worked really well
for them. Transitioning them to eat on a mat was really easy. I just
started putting a towel at the bottom of the crate and they eventually
saw it as their food towel. Now they will eat on the towel wherever I
put it and they stay put.

As he gets bigger he'll probably be eating bigger food, so I don't
think an elevated feeding station will be feasible, my boys like to lay
down and eat.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "jaygaughan" <jaygaughan@...> wrote:

> I'll feed him in the crate until he gets a little bigger. He'll
> then be eating on an elevated feeding station.

Messages in this topic (9)
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1c. Re: How to stop him from traveling around the house with food
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 7:34 pm ((PST))

>As he gets bigger he'll probably be eating bigger food, so I don't think an elevated feeding station will be feasible, my boys like to lay down and eat.

I agree to Andrea. I feed in kitchen andI use vynyle shower curtain(water-proof) and about 6foot x6foot and my corgi eats on it.I use bowl for rawEgg or liver but otherstuff,I place it on curtain directly and she sometimes eats standing up,sometimes sit on butt and eat lazy way or sometimes, tackling the work-out needed meal from onedirection or from the other and using space fully and sometimes,she lay on curtain and eat with super-man style posture which isso funny when you look at it.

I section off kitchen andliving room with puppy pen panels she used to use by starighten up,and it avoid her running with chicken feet to other room etc.

Since eating space is big,we rarely need to tell her to back to eating area but, for just in case,I am using panels to avoid her reacting door bell and come investigate door area with chicken feet,lol.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (9)
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2.1. Re: New to Raw
Posted by: "SLib700@aol.com" SLib700@aol.com annettedeutsch
Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 1:40 pm ((PST))

Hi Jeni! You said that just chicken leg quarters by themselves are too
bony,does that go for drumsticks as well? How about thighs or else giving some
boneless chicken meat along with the drumstick to my new to feeding raw 26 lb.
dachshund? Thanks! Annette.

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Messages in this topic (58)
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2.2. Re: New to Raw
Posted by: "Andrea" poketmouse45@yahoo.com poketmouse45
Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 2:36 pm ((PST))

How much are you feeding her per day? Does she eat her chicken
quarters slowly or is it chomp chomp gone? If the 96lbs looks good
on her she should be getting about 2lbs of food per day. You might
look into changing brands of chicken or checking to see if the
chicken is enhanced with some kind of broth solution. If the chicken
is minimally processed and she's eating around 2lbs a day you can try
taking the skin off of the chicken to see if that helps her at all.
Let us know how it goes.

Don't worry about adding new proteins until you get the stool under
control, then just go slowly.

Andrea

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "dijac9999" <jacobs_diane@...>
wrote:

> However, she is still not having any hard/firm poo. We started raw
> on November 4th. She gets fed twice a day. I did try about week
> three giving her mackerel for dinner as a new protein to see if
> that helped. Didn't work; it was still very soft to the point of
> almost runny.

Messages in this topic (58)
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2.3. Re: New to Raw
Posted by: "Casey Post" mikken@neo.rr.com mikkeny
Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 5:04 pm ((PST))

> I stared out with Chicken leg quarters.

Question 1 - are those leg quarters enhanced with a sodium solution at all?

Question 2 - is it possible you're overfeeding her?

Either one will cause loose stools in some dogs.

Casey

Messages in this topic (58)
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2.4. Re: New to Raw
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 7:35 pm ((PST))

>chicken leg quarters are too boney.

hmm.. I do not think as bony as chicken wing is. Maybe compare to chicken breast with rib bones ,Leg quarter has more bone % in it but as long as one doesn't feed it for long period of times,I think it is ok meal.

And when you get a whole chicken 2meal out of the whatever the number of cut you make has leg portions anyways.

My dog has no prob eating Leg quarters 2 meals out of whatever number I cut the whole bird.and she started rawfeeding with Leg quarter 2-3 meals in first week..

yassy

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2.5. Re: New to Raw
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 7:35 pm ((PST))

>she should be getting about 2lbs of food per day.

I think I have a good idea. I thnk that Cornish hen is baby chicken,right?? and whole bird weigh about 2lb I remember,so,the dog can eat half in the morning and other half in evening if the dog cannot eat 2lb in one sitting and end up loose poo(If you give smaller amount per sitting,poo prob could solve),or if 2lb in one sitting is no prob for dog,then,one can give whole Cornish hen in onesitting daily.

Name is different but it is I believe same protin source??the chicken? right?

yassy

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Messages in this topic (58)
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2.6. Re: New to Raw
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 7:55 pm ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "dijac9999" <jacobs_diane@...>
wrote:
>
> I stared out with Chicken leg quarters.

How many quarters are you feeding each meal?

> I was going to introduce a new
> protein at about 2 weeks when her diarrhea changed to the
> nice smaller poo.

Don't add any new proteins until she has nice smaller FIRMER poo.

> From what I've read up on, start new proteins slowly.

Exactly ... after everything is under control.

> My
> thoughts were to do chicken in the morning and every other
> night after
> the introduction period the same new protein, then one week
> all chicken and start again.

That plan is as good as any WHEN the time gets here. It's not here
yet.

> However, she is still not having any hard/firm poo. We
> started raw on November 4th. She gets fed twice a day.

Again, how many quarters per meal?

There are a few things that commonly cause loose stools.
1. Meals that are too large. In your case, more than one quarter
per meal.
2. Too much fat. You might want to remove skin and excess fat for
a few weeks to give the dog a chance to adjust.
4. Organs too soon in the diet. I don't think this affects you at
all.
5. Not enough bone in the diet. If you are feeding one quarter per
meal, no skin, no organs and still have the problem, feed two
chicken backs for the morning meal and a quarter for the evening
meal until the problem clears up. This will add more bone to the
diet. Bone is a constipator. Thats what you need at this point. I
feed my dogs 2 backs every day and they have never had a soft stool
in 5 years. Not one ever.

> I did try about week three
> giving her mackerel for dinner as a new protein to see if that
> helped. Didn't work;

And it won't work next time. Don't do that again until he has had
firm stools for a couple of weeks at least. Longer would be better.

> I'm concerned about trying any more proteins.

Be concerned about that right now. Once he has firmed up for a week
or so, slowly introduce them and I don't think you will have a
problem.

> I'm also concerned that
> maybe I should ask the vet for some kind of test to make sure
> she is
> okay, but I do not know what test to ask for.

Don't ask for anytyhing. There is no test needed at this time. He
will just try to put your dog on Science Diet I/D. That is not the
answer to your problem.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

Messages in this topic (58)
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3a. Re: Mucosy & Bloody Stools
Posted by: "dmckenna43" dawn@explorenewquay.com dmckenna43
Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 1:41 pm ((PST))

Thanks for your advice which we very much appreciate. Can you suggest
a bland food to feed them?
Regards
Dawn & Gerry

Messages in this topic (6)
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3b. Re: Mucosy & Bloody Stools
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 2:05 pm ((PST))

Subject: [rawfeeding] Re: Mucosy & Bloody Stools

Thanks for your advice which we very much appreciate. Can you suggest
a bland food to feed them?

#### perhaps some boneless chicken breasts for the day, then resume half
and quarter chickens tomorrow. I realize your dogs are not a large breed so
you would probably wish for them to feast on their HUGE chicken parts for a
short while, remove, then re-offer at the next feeding.

Chia & Ricco

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3c. Re: Mucosy & Bloody Stools
Posted by: "dmckenna43" dawn@explorenewquay.com dmckenna43
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 3:38 am ((PST))

Many thanks for your help. We will follow your advice and post a
message to let you know what happens.
Thanks
Dawn & Gerry

Messages in this topic (6)
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3d. Re: Mucosy & Bloody Stools
Posted by: "Chia" chia.m@shaw.ca cia22m
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 5:39 am ((PST))

Many thanks for your help. We will follow your advice and post a
message to let you know what happens.

### sounds good! Everything will be fine if you just advance forward
slowly.

Chia & Ricco

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4a. Re: Anal Glands
Posted by: "Mary Tinder" mtinder@tinderco.com mmmaryt
Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 3:27 pm ((PST))

Dan, I have the poster child for anal gland improvement from this
diet! Definitely trimmed our once a month or more scoots and presses
down to none!
Mary T

Messages in this topic (11)
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5. Amos and I - we're new here!
Posted by: "Heather" newbeginnings06@gmail.com malignstar
Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 7:34 pm ((PST))

But not to raw feeding! I found Amos, my 3 (estimated) 3 year old
beagle over a year and a half ago, shivering in the cold rain. After
having him on kibble and discovering he had very bad itching and
breakouts I began to research treatment- first medical, then I
delved deeper into food allergies as a suspect. Thankfully I didn't
know about all the grain free kibbles or I may've never done raw. I
talked with a vet on the east coast and had alot of people help me
on a forum I frequent that also have their dogs on raw. I finally
pinpointed the culrpit as corn and wheat (now he's developed a rice
allergy) and started him on raw. We've never looked back since. The
tartar that covered 3/4 of his teeth is almost all gone (just thin
threads around the gumline) and he looks amazing.. as I'm sure you
all see with your own dogs. The only time he's ever at the vet is
when he eats stuff he's not supposed to (like a pound and a half of
EVO cat food to which he developed a severe hot spot from the
concentrated protein). It struck me funny because at the vet he
says "Wow Amos is REALLY sensitive to everthing (nylon, kibble,
grains, etc) and it made me realize that I don't notice it because
all of his food sensitivities are controlled perectly by his diet.
I'm looking forward to learning even more from everyone here! I
can't wait to get reading!

Heather

Messages in this topic (1)
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6a. Re: Salmon oil versus capsules
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 8:45 pm ((PST))

>Tending toward the liquid as it is tedious to break open capsules or stuff them down throats.

Hi,Sai.Most dogs loooves Fish oil cap. My dog has no prob swallow it.

when I first introduced it to my dog,she was not sure what it is although it smelled good for her and she tried chewing as if eating itty-bitty rib,holding the tiny capsule and try to rip it or punctured with front teeth,very cute!

I then, watching her minutes but not going anywhere so,I snipped it off andsheate liquid and gel andall.

second day,she realised that she swallowing is much easier way so,she swallowed it andsince then,she does no more mouse eating cheese sort of thing anymore.

If Egg is your problem for dog to get to eat,then,why no just snip off the capsule and dump the gels into raw Egg? It is not so tedious work. And that way,you can get cheese out from Egg.

Or,just mix the Egg with tripe ;more smelly thing but dog likes it and omit the cheese,and then, you can just pop the fish oil capsule to your dog and no snipping.Most dog likes Tripe and fish oil so,it maybe go good for yourdog.

My dog drool and keep licking the mouth when I feed tripe.For me,it is smelly thing and not appetising but for her,it looks like very tasty thing.

Like mine,on very first day,you may need to show your dog what the capsule tastes like and you may need to snip it off like I did but,I am sure your dog would figure out it is other tasty thing.
yassy

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6b. Re: Salmon oil versus capsules
Posted by: "Mallory Kwiatkowski" m_k_jesusfreak3@yahoo.com m_k_jesusfreak3
Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 9:05 pm ((PST))

i use salmon oil in a pump bottle from www.leerburg.com
mine won't take capsules, so just give them a squirt. mine will acually open up for a squirt in the mouth, or lick it off a spoon. they love it.
mallory


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7a. Re: am I feeding enough?
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 3:37 am ((PST))

>They are not puppies. My Pomeranian is 3, (11lbs) my miniature dauschund iis 2 (16lbs!) and my Yorkie (teacup) is 2 1/2. (5 lbs) I am afraid my yorkie and dauschund are not ideal weight.

Really?? I looked it up at AKC site since i do not know what is average lb for dachshund,it said"Bred and shown in two sizes, standard and miniature;Weight of the standard size is usually between 16 and 32 pounds"

So,your dachshund is 2 so,the weight is in between 16-32lb. or,you have mini dachshund??

And as for Yorkie,I read"Weight ; not exceed seven pounds. " and yours is 5lb. so,not over-weight I think.

>.Do you have little dogs?

Well, I say medium dog with stumpy legs;the Pembroke Welsh Corgi.

At AKC site,they say 28lb for female Corgi with 12inch height average,but my dog,palette is tall!! Height is about 14inch!! 2 inch taller than average corgi and her leg is not as thick and stumpy like the other Corgis that I see in Breed Calendar or something. She weigh 34lb but I am thinking,considering her height,maybe 30lb or so would be best for her. She has long back so,I especially like to be careful for weight. I of course,try feel ribs and look.she has good tummy-up so,she is not really over-weight though.

> If so wat type of foods work best for you.?

I first tried cut back up the portion about 10% daily,but it did not work too well.

So,I was thinking.. I should put an eye on daily cal because human or dog gain because human or dog does not burn cal they eats thus gain.

so, I first was walking once a day with her bbut after seeing she hit 36lb(6lb gain after switching to raw),I increased walking frequency and,we now do 2 times aday for walk and we do find it game after daily training time(dog have fun and without noticing,they are doing little bit of excersize,lol) and we play more inside than before.

so,I can say I try to moving her around more;more excersize.

And I keep cal and fat% on eye. I try her on about 40% fat intake and keep the cal around same range.

Like..Lamb tongue is 70 %fat,and if I feed it like before,one day,her fat% will be more than 70% and cal must be sky-high than she actually burn(fat gives more cal than carb or protin;1g of carb and protin gives 4 cal and same 1g fat gives 9cal).

ribs are high fat% too;60%.chicken feet 60% fat...

she still can eat lamb tongue but I do combo meal and play around so that the fat % would not exceed 40% or so,and cal would not be sky high.I would not be strickly try it to be on but roughly around the number that seems to work forher.

I could not play around too well 2 weeks ago, and her fat% that week was 46%,and that week was600cal or so.She gained 0.2lb.

Last week,I could back to 41% fat,500cal or so intake and she now back to 34lb.So,I am thinking 40%,500cal would be good number for her.

If I ever ask home-made nutrition people,palette's intake cal should be 1000cal!! Almost female human cal intake(am I right?)!! That is way way too much for her.

If she were not easy dog to gain weight,I would just go with look and feel but since she is easy to get gain weight(seems to be),I play with number now.

The food amount she gets are staying same as before,only what she gets,how she gets is changed.and she is doing great.Some week,depending on what she eats, she gets Egg 2 times per week,but sometimes only 1 per week,it all depends on how I can play with menu.
Sometimes, too much fat% and she gets 2 liver kinds one week but some week,she can get all 3 kinds of liver,but sometimes just one liver kinds.

I use www.nutritiondata.com

You can create your dog's pantry by register yourself and create and see your dog's rough cal intake(some are not listed there) your dog's fat% etc you can check on it.

And keeping journal is good too. You can look back andsee what did not work for you.Or what worked for you.

Cutting back amount may work for some dogs but just cutting back the amount of food has probably same fat% although cal may reduce down by making the meal small.

It did not work for my dog.

yassy

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Messages in this topic (8)
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8a. Re: Feeding venison
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 3:38 am ((PST))

>deer what do you think of feeding the organs to my dog?

Is your dog new to raw feeding? Have your dog eaten deer organ before? If not,maybe you liketo try slow to introduce,it is same if your dog had no deer meat before. Always new protin/item should be introduced slowly andone at a time after you see the dog digest the item you gave very well.But you are lucky! I see some road-kill deer nowandthen but never had Hunteror husband bring down animals to home.

>Although, it's not suppose to be in the deer this far down I just wonder how safe it is.

I have never done hunting before but my husbandonce told me that Hunters remove organ right away after kill and,stuck the tum with ice bags for safety.I forgot why hunter has to remove organ right away but he told me that it is so. Did your husband removed organ right away andseparate it from animal?

yassy

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9a. Re: Feeding organs;do we need to washthem before feeding???
Posted by: "Yasuko herron" sunshine_annamaria@yahoo.com sunshine_annamaria
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 3:38 am ((PST))

>I do have one dog who doesn't like pork organs but it doesn't make any difference whether they are washed or not. He doesn't like the flavor and won't eat them.

Hi,sandee.That was what I thought;even if washed, the smell or taste or texture dog may not like would not change... I thought Urine thing was human concern but wasnot sure if something bad in health-wise would happen to my dog if left unwashed although palette seems doing okay.I guess it is ok without washing it.

if your dog does not like pork organ like mine,did you try mixing it with egg? Not sure why but she gubbles down if mixed with Egg.If not,she leave it for me to find liver is left lonely inside the doggy bowl,lol.

Pork organ is not must item but,by doing so,I found out she eats it fine so I am feeding it with Egg.

yassy

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10a. Parasites?
Posted by: "sltahoek9s" crazy4k9@aol.com sltahoek9s
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 3:38 am ((PST))

Hi again,

I'm about 4 weeks in on raw. My 4 year old GSD is doing great, no real digestive issues
except occasional vomiting of bile and bones (improving) and no real upset so far. He started
with pork. I've since introduced him to turkey, chicken, rabbit and mackerel. I live in an area
with no real flea, tick or heartworm issues, but have traveled recently to areas that defintely
have them. I used an essential oil spray. I'm not sure if it is correlated, but the last week or
more, my GSD has been really licking at his anus. When I notice him, it seems to be a bit red
and irritated from his licking. Could this be from parasites? I haven't seen any worms in his
stool. Any ideas would be appreciated. Thanks for all the advice so far. I think i'm starting
to get the hang of things.

Tammy C

Messages in this topic (7)
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10b. Re: Parasites?
Posted by: "carnesbill" carnesw@bellsouth.net carnesbill
Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 6:25 am ((PST))

--- In rawfeeding@yahoogroups.com, "sltahoek9s" <crazy4k9@...> wrote:
>
> I'm not sure if it is correlated, but the last week or
> more, my GSD has been really licking at his anus.

The most common cause of butt itch is anal gland. Have his stools
gotten real solid yet or are they on the soft side? Solid stools
usually take care of anal gland.

Bill Carnes
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Feeding Raw since October 2002

"Unnatural diets predispose animals to unnatural outcomes"
Dr. Tom Lonsdale

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